Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[Pan]

Hi all

I think Roi has it pretty well.

Anyway, here's my take on it.

* What playing position/tuning did Joe Harris use to play the song? 

I?m going to suggest Standard tuning, C position, tuned around a half-step low. At around :49 he plays a cycle of 5ths progression starting from the long A chord form, and playing the cycle, ending in an open C chord for the I chord, if I?m not mistaken. On 1:19 he does a chromatic walk-up from the open 6th string, to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd fret, to play the V or G chord. The ending at 1:48 sounds like a lick in C position too, starting from the 3rd fret of the 6th string, and going up to the open 5th string, then 2nd fret 5th string, to finish on the I or C note on the 3rd fret, 5th string.

* Where are the three chord positions that he opens his performance with, from :00--:03, :03--:06, and :06--:09 fretted, and how would you name each one of those chords?

The first chord I would call a A9 chord, and it could be fingered X-X-7-6-8-7 (or alternatively X-12-11-12-12-X).

The second one is a little trickier. It sounds like a Dm chord with an added 6th I guess you could call it Dm6. I think it is first fingered as a Dm X-X-X-7-6-5, and then the 6th is added on the top string on the 7th fret. To get the alternating bass, I guess you?d have to lose the 3rd string X-X-7-X-6-7. This chord too, could be played higher up on the neck, on the inner strings at the 10th fret, but since I believe the next chord uses open strings on the bass, and keeps the two top strings unchanged, I would say that it is more likely played at the 5th fret.

The last chord I think is a G7 chord with an A  note inserted on the 1st string 5th fret. I guess you could call it a G9 chord, and it would be fingered something like X-X-0-0-6-5, and then the top string is changed from A to B note, from 5th to 7th fret.

Cheers

Pan

[One-Eyed Ross]

I agree, C rag, but the D chord I'd have as 7-7-5, going from 5 to 7 on the E string...I'm not hearing it as a minor chord, but that's probably my ear.  I'll keep listening and see if I can hear it the same as everyone else...

[Prof Scratchy]

I'm sure the C rag thing works, and I'll have a go later on based on these previous posts. But it also works easily (if not correctly) in G (capoed at 4 to play along). In this position the first three chords are 022132 (E7 with an added D); x02212 (Am with an added Fsharp); and a regular D7 first position chord. I've played a watered down version of this tune for some years based on G. I think I got it from a Steve Phillips recording many years ago. I don't know if Steve played it in G, or whether I just lazily worked it out in that key. Probably the latter.

[Old Man Ned]

Pretty much in agreement with what other folks have said.  C, standard tuning about a half step down in pitch.  Chords follow what I've read is a typical ragtime progression of VIx, IIx, V, I.  The first chord I have as an A XX7687, but later in the recording I think he also plays this as a long A at the 2nd fret.  The second chord I have is XX7577 and lifting off to the 5th fret on the high E string.  The 3rd chord I have as X55767 again lifting off to the 5th fret on the high E string.

At first I also thought he may be using a capo around 4th fret (or near vicinity) but hearing some of the chords further in the recording I convinced myself he wasn't.  Love the tune, that's another CD for my to buy list. Cheers.

[David Kaatz]

Without reading the other replies first, to keep myself honest, this is what I hear.

Baton Rouge Rag
- What playing position/tuning?
Key of C, standard tuning, tuned approx. 1/2 step low.

- Where are the three chord positions that he opens his performance with fretted? And how would you name the chords?
A9 chord at the 7th fret, fretting fourth string 7th fret, third string 6th, second string 8th fret, and first string 7th fret. Just barely brushes the first string during the lick.
D6 chord at the 7th fret playing the first, second, third and fourth strings: thumb alternating fourth string 7th fret with third string 7th fret, fingers playing second string 7th fret, and first string 5th fret and then 7th fret by laying down the little finger that should be holding the second string.
G chord at the 5th fret alternating open fourth and third strings while playing the second string 5th fret, then first string 7th fret, then first string 5th fret, then 7th fret again.

I think it is standard tuning because Harris plays a run from a low E chromatically up to G at about 1:19 in the tune.

Dave

[Johnm]

Hi all,
It is great to see all of the responses on "Baton Rouge Rag", and how close the consensus is on left hand positions (with minor variations) and playing position.  Here are the answers to the questions:
   * Playing position was C position in standard tuning, tuned a half-step low.  While the progression can be played out of G position capoed to the fourth fret, the very notes that Joe Harris played can't be gotten there, because Joe Harris frequently plays the open sixth string in the bass behind the VI chord  (A) that opens the progression.  Relative to that A chord, the open sixth string is a low 5th.  The analogous note is not available in G position because the VI chord in G is E and there is no low 5th available on an E chord, since the low root of the E chord is as low as you can go.
   * Joe Harris starts the tune with are an A9, which he fingers 0-x-7-6-8-7.  A peculiarity of Joe Harris's arrangement is that in the course of his rendition he never hits the open fifth string in the bass under this chord, and it would be the most obvious note to hit there, the lowest root.  When he does alternate the bass under this chord, he goes from the open sixth string up to the seventh fret of the fourth string, from a low 5th to a medium range root.  It's an unusual alternation, but it sounds great.
The second chord Joe Harris plays is a Dm or Dm6, under which he plays X-X-0-7-6-5, with the fifth fret of the first string rocking up to the seventh fret and back.  I suppose what you would call the chord would depend on whether you think the prevailing sound is of the 7th fret on the first string (Dm6) or the fifth fret on the first string (Dm).  Joe Harris never hits a note lower in pitch than the open fourth string against this chord.
The third chord that Joe Harris plays is a G9/G7, under which he plays  X-X-0-0-6-7, with the seventh fret of the first string rocking down to the fifth fret and back.  If you considered the dominant sound to be the seventh fret of the first string, you'd have G7, and if you considered the dominant sound to be the fifth fret of the first string, you'd have G9.  They're functionally interchangeable, in any event.

These opening three chords are beautifully voiced, and especially in the shift from Dm to G9 there is a beautiful concision, since the two chord positions differ from each other only on the third string, where you fret the seventh fret for the Dm and have an open third string for the G9.  In subsequent passes through the form, when doing the high version of the progression that he opens his rendition with, Joe Harris starts the form with a particularly nifty-sounding A7, under which he plays 0-X-7-6-8-0.  That chord is missed on the first pass through the form because the take starts half-way through the first bar.  The A7 has such a neat sound because he utilizes the always interesting sound of fretting a higher pitched note on a lower pitched string, and harmonizes the 8th fret of the second string with the open first string.

Congratulations to Roi and Pan, who both nailed the identification altogether.  I think everyone had the 9th chord formation for the first chord right, too, and Scratchy had it right relative to G position.  And I think a couple of you had fretted bass notes for the Dm and G7 where the same notes were available on open strings.  In other words, the sound was right.  I thought this one was kind of a tough puzzler and everyone was pretty much right there with it.

Hearing this piece made me think of the way we sometimes generalize about the characteristic sound of Country Blues from different regions, with Mississippi blues being with heavy time, in Spanish or E standard, little chordal complexity, etc.  Certainly there were plenty of blues like that that came out of Mississippi, but what about Hacksaw Harney, Eugene Powell, Bo Carter and somebody like Joe Harris from across the river?  These players all had pretty (or very) sophisticated chordal content in their music, a varied rhythmic palette, and a degree of Pop or Jazz influence.  I suspect that at a time when this music was in a more evolutionarily hot period, in almost any region you would have found some people playing music with heavy time, a pared back chordal vocabulary and a trancey feel, and others who played chordally complex, raggy or Pop-influenced material.  I'm beginning to think that gravitating toward one or the other of these extremes is almost more an issue of someone's personality, or what jerks their chain, than it is an issue of the region that someone came from.  In any area, there will just be some people who respond to harmonic complexity and are drawn to it and others who are not.  Thus, you end up with really surprising renditions like Joe Harris's "Baton Rouge Rag" coming out of Louisiana.  Who'd-a thunk it?

Thanks to all of you for your participation and I'll post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm         

[Prof Scratchy]

Now to learn it properly!

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk

[One-Eyed Ross]

What Scratchy said.  This is a great tune.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The song is "Mama, You Goin' To Quit Me", as performed by Allison Mathis, recorded in Georgia in 1941.  I realize we haven't done many slide songs in this thread--I suppose I thought that it is relatively easy to tell what tuning someone is playing slide out of, but on a case by case basis, I'm not sure that is so.  In any event, I think this is one of the most exciting East Coast slide performances I've every heard--wow!  The only thing wrong with it is it's too short!  Here it is:



Allison Mathis used a stammering archetype in his vocal phrasing, much as William Harris had for his "Bullfrog Blues".  Dashes indicate places where Mathis concludes a vocal phrase with his slide.

You gon' quit me, good as I've been to --
You gon' quit me, good as I've been--

Lord, I ain't got no ticket, got no railroad, Lord, I ain't got no railroad fare
Lord, got no ticket, ain't got no railroad---
Got no ticket don't got no railroad---
Got no ticket, got no---

Eeee, Lord, my troubles been bad, just b'lieve my troubles easin' down
Easy, Lord, troubles bearing---

The first time I seen the catfish in the, said, a catfish in the sea
I guess these old fusstin' women are quarrelin' drunk over me

The questions on "Mama, You Goin' To Quit Me" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Allison Mathis use in playing the song?
   * Where does he fret the passage from :33--:36?

As always, please use only your ears, instruments and experience to answer the questions, and please don't post any of your answers before Friday morning, October 24.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy "Mama, You Goin' To Quit Me" as much as I do.

All best,
Johnm 

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Any takers on the puzzler on "Mama, You Goin' To Quit Me" as played by Allison Mathis?  Come one come all!  Answer both questions or only one if you wish.
All best,
Johnm

[Prof Scratchy]

Found this one really hard, not to say totally impenetrable, but close! So my best guess is Spanish capoed round about four or five. Using the capo as a nut, I think he slides up to the fifth fret of the fifth string then  frets the second string on the second fret. Then he rocks between the open first string and the second fret of the second string nine times before going briefly to the bent third fret of the fifth string, followed by the open fifth string. Probably entirely wrong, but my best guess. What a powerful performance! I've never heard a slide tune like it before (though some of it reminded me of Leadbelly's approach). Thanks for finding it, John.

[banjochris]

I agree, open G. I'd bet money it's played lap-style. It reminds me a little bit of Eli Framer's "God Didn't Make Me No Monkey Man," especially how it keeps insistently returning to the first string fifth fret.

[ScottN]

I'll guess at Spanish as well primarily based on the drop to the 6th string at 0:33. Just before the bass drops at 0:33 with a break in the vocal it sounds like an open 5th G alternating with a open 4th string D to me vs an A to D alternation (ruling out Vestapol because you cant get to G on the 5th).  At 0:33 it sounds like he slides up to the 5th fret and open 6th D alternates against C on the 5th fret 5th string and the start of the treble is 5th fret 2nd string vs open 1st string. That's my guess and I'll stand behind it at least until the next post that shows that I'm way off.

Thanks,
              Scott

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Thanks to Roi, Prof. Scratchy, banjochris and ScottN for the responses on Allison Mathis' "Mama You Goin' To Quit Me".  Here are the answers to the questions about the song.
   *  The playing position/tuning that Allison Mathis used for the song was indeed Spanish tuning, capoed up a good ways.  Every respondent had this right, and that's pretty darned cool.  The question wasn't a slam dunk by any means.  Well done!
   *  In the passage from :33-:36, it sounds like Allison Mathis is momentarily going to the IV chord at first.  I hear the passage as being a 2-bar phrase.  Here is how I'm hearing it:
   In the right hand, Mathis' thumb is living on the fifth string for the entire phrase, doubling up and hitting 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + on the fifth string in both measures.  Mathis' picking in the treble is more irregular.  In the bar, Mathis slide into the fifth fret on the fifth and third strings on beats 1, 2 and 3, doing pinches on those two strings on those beats and keeping his thumb striking the fifth fret of the fifth string on the +s of those beats as well.  On beat four of the first measure, Mathis lifts his bar and pinches the open fifth and first strings, and on the + of beat four, he re-picks the open fifth string agains either the first fret of the second string or the fifth fret of the third string (the same pitch, the IV note of the scale, lives in both of those places).  If Mathis was playing lap-style as Chris surmised, he could very well have fretted either of those two places with his bar, just dabbing it down.  If he used a fretting finger to fret the note on the + of beat four, he probably fretted the first fret of the second string.
In the second measure, in the first two beats, Mathis plays precisely the same thing that he played on 4 + at the end of the first measure, a pinch of the open fifth and first strings on beats 1 and 2, and on the +s of those beats, a pinch of the open fifth string with either the first fret of the second string or the fifth fret of the third strings.  On beat 3, he once again does a pinch of the open fifth and first strings, but on the + of beat three he does a pinch of the fifth and third strings, with the slide sliding into the fourth fret of those two strings.  On beat four, he allows the fourth fret of the third string to sustain, but re-picks the fourth fret of the fifth string.  On the + of beat four, he pinches the fifth and fourth strings while doing a quick hammer with his bar from those strings open to the second fret.  On the downbeat of the next measure, he pinches the fifth and third strings open.

I believe this is one of the most exciting slide performances I've heard in the style, and I think one of the things that makes Mathis's approach so exciting is the way he double up with his thumb in the right hand, hitting eighth notes instead of quarter notes falling on the beat.  That doubling up creates a rhythmic push and intensity that is really powerful.  Allison Mathis accelerates like crazy over the course of the brief rendition, and this is an instance in which a tendency which is sometimes construed as a lack of control or some kind of shortcoming of musicianship is more than justified in expressive terms--it just makes the whole thing so much more immediate and exciting.  It's worth mentioning that he had a terrific tone with his slide, too.  Listening to his slide playing, and that of Sister O. M. Terrell, to whom I've also been listening a lot recently makes me realize, once again, that regional generalizations about musical sound tend not to hold up, the more people you hear.  I had an idea in my mind of East Coast slide players often being expert, as per Fred McMullen, Blind Willie McTell and Curley Weaver, but as having a very controlled sound.  Allison Mathis and Sister O. M. Terrell put the lie to that generalization, with their wild, free-sounding slide playing, as exciting and wild as just about any slide playing out of Mississippi or anywhere else.  I'm happy to have preconceptions like mine exploded--it makes the world a bigger place!

Allison Mathis' performance of "Mama You Goin' to Quit Me", incidentally, came from a wonderful CD called "Red River Blues, 1934-1943" on the Travelin' Man label, TM CD O8.  It is one of the very best re-issue anthologies I have ever heard, all field recorded stuff and spectacular.

Thanks to all who participated on this one.  Everyone had the tuning right, and if you have that right, figuring out as much of a tune as you would like to figure out is just a war of attrition--if you keep plugging away, you'll get it, and that's pretty cool.  I'll post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm   

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've got another puzzler for you.  It has two parts.  The first cut is "Nobody's Business If I Do", as performed by Joe Harris, who also recorded "Baton Rouge Rag", discussed earlier in this thread.  Joe is joined by a mandolinist on this track.  Here it is:



If I go down to the river, jump overboard and drown
'T'ain't nobody's business if I do, do, do, do
If I take a notion to give you all my money
'T'ain't nobody's business if I do

I'm going away, pin crepe on your door
Won't be dead, but I ain't comin' back no more
If I take a notion to jump overboard and drown
'T'ain't nobody's business if I do

If I take all my money, and give it to my honey
'T'ain't nobody's business if I do, do, do , do
If I take a notion to jump overboard and drown
'T'ain't nobody's business if I do

The questions on "Nobody's Business If I Do" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Joe Harris use to play the song?
   * What is the chord progression of his first verse, from :06--:26?

The second piece is "Poor Joe Breakdown", as performed by Robert Davis.  Here it is:



The questions on "Poor Joe Breakdown" are:
   * What position/tuning did Robert Davis use to play the tune?
   * Where is Robert Davis fretting what he plays in the treble at :18--:19?

Please use only your ears, instrument and experience to work out your answers to the questions.  Please wait until the morning of Wednesday, October 29 to post your answers.  Thanks for your participation.
All best,
Johnm