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It takes a big-mouthed man to be a preacher - Willie Moore, delta musician and friend of Son House

Author Topic: Miller's Breakdown  (Read 244383 times)

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Offline Johnm

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1995 on: February 04, 2019, 09:31:08 AM »
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the puzzlers on Josh White's "Silicosis Is Killin' Me" has done so, so I will post the answers.

For Josh White's "Silicosis Is Killin' Me":
   * His playing position/tuning was Vastapol, playing in the key of the sixth, fourth and first strings.  Everyone who responded had this right--well done!
   * In the first two bars of each verse accompaniment, Josh White played the following positions and chords in the left hand.  In the first bar, he played a I7 chord, sounding X-3-0-0-3-0, avoiding hitting the open sixth string, despite it being the root of the chord.  In the second bar, he went to a IV chord in the first half of the bar, fingered X-2-0-1-2-0, and in the second half of the bar played a IV minor chord, fingered X-1-0-1-X-0.  Prof Scratchy had the chords analyzed correctly, but had the fingering confused on the IV minor chord. 
This series of chords was a pet move of Josh White's, and he used it for a very high percentage of the religious numbers he recorded in Vastapol tuning.  In walking chromatically down the fifth string from the third fret, he starts at the bVII of the scale, giving him the I7 chord.  Resolving downward by half-step into the second fret, he gets the VI note of the scale, which is the major third of the IV chord (the root of which he frets at the first fret of the third string).  Moving to the first fret of the fifth string, he gets the bVI of the scale, which functions as the minor third of the IV chord, the root of which he continues to fret at the first fret of the third string.  If you go to the "Josh White Lyrics" thread, which has over twenty of Josh White's early religious recordings in it, I think you'll find that he used this move at some point in practically every one of those songs.
As per Old Man Ned's query for tips on how to hear chords and chordal movement that happen underneath singing, I think the best way to hear a move of the type that Josh White employed here is to listen for the descending line in the bass, on the fifth string, and suss out where it lives in the scale.  Once you figure out that the line goes bVII-VI-bVI-V, you can figure out the movement, if any, in the inner voices of the chords.  The great thing about figuring out a series of moves like this is that you only have to figure it out once, but you can use it over and over again, as Josh White, in fact, did.  Listening for where melodic runs live in a scale is also probably the best way of figuring them out, too.
   * The run that Josh White played from 1:59--2:01 was played as follows:  on the + of beat one, he played a bent third fret of the first string.  On beat two, he played a triplet, going from the open first string to the open second string to the first fret of the third string.  On beat three, he plays another triplet, going from bent third fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string to the second fret of the fifth string.  On beat four, he plays a broken triplet, hitting the bent third fret of the fourth string on beat four and the + of beat four, resolving to the open fourth string on the downbeat of the next measure.  Prof Scratchy had this run dead on--well done!

Josh White's playing at this stage of his career had tremendous finish and control.  Like Buddy Moss, he was an exceptionally clean player, and was technically spot on, pretty much at all times.  Blind Boy Fuller didn't have the same degree of polish and spiffiness in his playing, but at the same time, he seemed to me to have a greater spontaneity, looseness, liveliness, and feeling of being in the moment.  It's impossible to say who was better, because it's simply a matter of what you want to hear in a player--and for that matter, at different times you may want to hear different things.  Suffice it to say that they were all great players in their own ways!

Thanks to blueshome, Old Man Ned, and Prof Scratchy for responding to the puzzler, and I hope folks enjoyed the song.  I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.
All best,
Johnm   

Offline Old Man Ned

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1996 on: February 04, 2019, 02:26:07 PM »
Thanks for the tips on hearing chords behind vocals John and as always the detailed explanation.
All the best,
Ned

Offline Johnm

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1997 on: February 17, 2019, 01:08:48 PM »
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is Lightnin' Hopkins' "Shining Moon".  Here is the song:



The questions on "Shining Moon" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lightnin' use to play the song?
   * Where did Lightnin' fret the run he played in his solo from 1:09--1:12?
   * Where did Lightnin' fret what he played from 1:18--1:22?
   * Where does Lightnin' most often fret his IV chord behind his singing?

Please use only your ears and your guitar to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses until 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, February 20.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy "Shining Moon".
All best,
Johnm

Offline David Kaatz

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1998 on: February 20, 2019, 11:31:33 AM »
Lightnin' played in standard tuning, key of A.

The run from 1:09 - 1:12, a line of triplets, was fretted two possible ways:
either in open position A shape, or at the 5th fret with a E shape. Each note a
triplet eighth note except the final note.
slide into the E note, 5th fret, 2nd string      * on the beat
F# 2nd fret, first string
G  3rd fret, first string
A  5th fret first string     * on the beat
G  3rd fret, first string
E  open first or 5th fret 2nd string
D  3rd fret 2nd string     * on the beat
C  1st fret 2nd string or 5th fret 3rd string
A  2nd fret 3rd string
E  2nd fret 4th string    * on the beat

The alternative at the 5th fret would be:
slide into the E note, 5th fret, 2nd string      * on the beat
F# 7th fret, 2nd string
G  8th fret, 2nd string
A  5th fret first string      * on the beat
G  8th fret, 2nd string
E  5th fret 2nd string
D  7th fret 3rd string      * on the beat
C  5th fret 3rd string
A  7th fret 4th string
E  7th fret 5th string      * on the beat

From 1:18 - 1:22,
Hammer from E open 6th string to F# 2nd fret 6th string
A open 5th string, let it ring   * on the beat
A 2nd fret 3rd string         
C 5th fret 3rd string      * on the beat
sixteenth note triplet:
D 3rd fret 2nd string slide to Eb 4th fret 2nd string hammer to E 5th fret 2nd string
 possibly the line above is 2 hammer ons
G  3rd fret, first string     * on the beat
A  5th fret first string
G  3rd fret, first string
E  5th fret 2nd string     * on the beat
D  3rd fret 2nd string
C  5th fret 3rd string
A  2nd fret 3rd string      * on the beat

Behind his singing, Lightnin' fretted the IV chord with the F# in the bass and
didn't play the 1st string, like this:
x
1
2
0
0
2

Offline Old Man Ned

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1999 on: February 20, 2019, 01:53:39 PM »
Lightnin's "Shining Moon" I'm hearing in A standard:

   * Where did Lightnin' fret the run he played in his solo from 1:09--1:12?
-----------3----5--3
-3slide5-----5-------5---3---1
----------------------------------2
-------------------------------------2
--------------------------------------
---------------------------------------

   * Where did Lightnin' fret what he played from 1:18--1:22?
---------------------0--3--5--3-------------
--------------1--3----------------5--3--1---
-----------2--------------------------------2
----------------------------------------------
-------0-------------------------------------
-0h2-----------------------------------------

   * Where does Lightnin' most often fret his IV chord behind his singing?
D7 at the neck 6th str, 2nd fret; 4th str open; 3rd str,2nd fret; 2nd str,1st fret.

All the best,
Ned

Offline Prof Scratchy

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #2000 on: February 21, 2019, 10:57:53 AM »
Haven?t had time to sit down with this one, but I love Lightnin?s playing in A. Wish he?d done more of it. I?m in agreement with Ned?s answer (I think -without benefit of guitar to hand)!


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Offline blueshome

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #2001 on: February 21, 2019, 11:47:56 PM »
I?m with Ned.
I?ve attempted playing this song over the years.

Offline Johnm

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #2002 on: February 22, 2019, 06:11:56 AM »
Hi all,
Thanks for all of the responses so far.  For those who have responded, check your answers to the question about Lightnin's IV chord, especially what he plays in the fifth and sixth bars of each verse.
All best,
Johnm

Offline Prof Scratchy

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #2003 on: February 22, 2019, 07:17:09 AM »
For the IV chord x04535?


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Offline Norfolk Slim

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #2004 on: February 22, 2019, 01:39:24 PM »
554535?

Offline David Kaatz

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #2005 on: February 22, 2019, 03:11:42 PM »
Wow, hard to hear the IV chord with the bass playing in there too. I think maybe:
x
3
5
4
x
x

Offline Old Man Ned

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #2006 on: February 23, 2019, 11:36:11 AM »
On more listening, is he fingering it around
0
3
5
4
X
5

Not always using the open E, but it's there if he feels like it?

Offline Pan

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #2007 on: February 23, 2019, 03:22:05 PM »
How about an  X-0-4-5-5-5?

Great tune from Lightnin'!

Cheers

Pan

Offline waxwing

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #2008 on: February 23, 2019, 03:57:45 PM »
I think most of the regulars have responded so I don't think this is a spoiler, and I may not be around during the week when you provide your transcription Johnm.

Lightnin' played Shinin' Moon on a TV show around 1970, a video of which is included and taught by Ernie Hawkins in his Guitar Workshop lesson on Lightnin'. He definitely developed the arrangement somewhat in the almost 20 years between these two, so not what he does here exactly. Per Ernie, and readily visible, he fingers xx45x5, strumming on the down beat (damping the 2nd string), and then on the 3rd beat slides his thumb up from the 3rd to 5th frets on the 5th and 6th strings to complete the chord as 5545x5. He clearly had not added the slide up in the bass at the time of this earlier recording, but anyone who plays the song will want to see the video for some more ideas. He adds a quick IV in the second measure, with the same bass slide, and utilizes the repeating hammer-on from the open G to the A extensively at the intro and elsewhere.

I never really worked this one up, so thanks for bringing my attention to it again Johnm. I've been playing out more and this would be a fun one to play. And it's a good example of how a player develops a performance over time, which is something you have posted about in the past Johnm. I particularly think the addition of the quick IV is interesting, and wonder if Lightnin' used it in earlier recordings or if it is something he picked up in the 50s-60s?

Lighnin's clip is at the beginning of the video.



Wax
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 04:05:32 PM by waxwing »
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Offline Johnm

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Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #2009 on: March 01, 2019, 09:47:25 AM »
Hi all,
There haven't been any recent responses to the Lightnin' Hopkins puzzler on "Shining Moon", so I'll post the answers.

For Lightnin' Hopkins' "Shining Moon":
   * His playing position was A in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * Lightnin' fretted the run he played in his solo from 1:09--1:12 as follows:  He began the run on beat two of the measure playing a triplet that begins with a slide to the fifth fret of the second string, going from there to the third and then the fourth fret of the first string.  On beat three, he played another triplet, going from the fifth fret of the first string to the third fret of the first string followed by either the open first string or the fifth fret of the second string.  On beat four, he played another triplet, going from the third fret of the second string to either the first fret of the second string and the second fret of the third string, or possibly played the middle note of that triplet at the fifth fret of the third string.  He concluded the run hitting the downbeat of the next measure at the second fret of the fourth string.
   * From 1:18--1:22 Lightnin' fretted the following run:  He begins the run on the + of beat four in the ninth bar of the form, doing a thumb hammer at the second fret of the sixth string after striking the open sixth string. In the tenth bar of the form, on 1 + he goes from the open fifth string to the second fret of the third string.  On beat two, he plays a triplet starting at the first fret of the second string, going from there to a grace note slide into the fourth fret of the second string, and from there to the third fret of the first string.  On beat three, he plays a triplet going from the fourth fret of the first string to the fifth fret of the first string and from there to the third fret of the first string.  On beat four, he plays another triplet, going from the open first string to the third fret of the second string, followed by the first fret of the second string, landing on the second fret of the third string on the downbeat of the eleventh bar of the form.
   * Lightnin' most often fretted his IV chord under his singing, in the fifth and sixth bars of his form, at 5-5-4-5-X-5, using a sort of B7 position from the base of the neck moved up three frets, with either his thumb fretting both fifth and sixth strings at the fifth fret, or just the sixth string, or neither, in which case, he would have been using his second or middle finger to mash down and fret both the sixth and fifth strings.  The fingering that Prof Scratchy suggested, 0-4-5-3-5, from the fifth to the first string, is one that was used by other Texas and Oklahoma players, most notably J. T. Smith and Lil Son Jackson.  What struck me about Lightnin's sound on his IV chord in the fifth and sixth bars of the form is that he never once sounds his B or second string, either open, at the third fret or at the fifth fret, all places he might plausibly have chosen to sound it.  Instead, he neither fretted nor sounded the string.

Thanks to all who responded to the puzzler.  Lightin' was sure great.  I will look for another puzzler to post soon.  Incidentally, the post from waxwing that precedes this one was a spoiler when it was originally posted, so I waited until the puzzler had been answered to put it up on the board.
All best,
Johnm
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 09:49:25 AM by Johnm »

 


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