Topic: Stew-Mac Triple O Kit

[jrn]

Hi guys

I've been interested in building my own accoustic guitars for years. I was thinking that this kit might be a good way to jump in and get my feet wet.

Triple O, 1 7/8" nut and a slotted headstock. I like it!

Would this be a comparable guitar to what the pre-war guys were playing? I'm thinking about Patton's Stellas in particular. What do you guys think, would this make a good country blues fingerpicker?

J

[westside ryan]

I would think that Patton's guitar would have been closer to a single "0" or maybe even slightly smaller.  In the photo of him holding a guitar I beleive that he is holding a Stromberg Voisinet parlor. 

On a side note, I have a 000 and a 0 and they are both great fingerpicking guitars.

[yogi]

The old guitars were ladder braced, Stewmacs as well as almost all modern guitars aren't.
Ladder braced guitars have an inferior sound compared to modern guitars. They sound flatter due to the sound boards reduced ability to vibrate.
That being said, "inferior" is the sound many blues players look for in order to get as close to the sound of the 1920's as they can.

[Mr.OMuck]

Triple "O"'s are great guitars. Big Bill Broonzy played a Martin Brazilian Rosewood 000-28, and I believe Libba Cotton played a Mahogany Martin 000-18. Can't get much better recommendations than that!
I wonder how much the Stewmac kit is? I once again played a Blueridge BR-163 solid Indian Rosewood and spruce top triple "O" style guitar for $695. and found it to be superb and an almost unbelievable bargain.
So while I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from building their own guitar there IS that to consider.

[Mr.OMuck]

I just went to the stewmac page. These kits are not cheap. Also all the ones I mention are 14 fret to the body models quite different from what you're looking at. It seems to me that this really is more about assembling and finishing a guitar, rather than really making or building one from scratch. They look like great guitars but if it were me and i was really interested in learning to BUILD guitars I'd be more inclined to spend the money on a real guitar building course that included learning to carve your own neck and dovetail joint for attaching it to the body. It seems to me that therein lies the toughest challenge in the process. I see many Luthiers offer instruction now and it might be worth your while to call a few and discuss what they offer, how they teach, what it costs and whether or not you leave with a completed instrument.

[jrn]

When I first stumbled across it, I thought it would be a cool guitar for a decent price. But upon further investigation I realized that all said and done, I'd be in for close to two grand!    That's about $500 for the guitar and around $1400 for the tools and supplies that they recommend for this particular kit. That's so far out of my budget its not funny!

[Stuart]

Depending on what you already have for tools and what you might be able to borrow, the $1400 estimate might be the high end. Remember that if you want to build a guitar from scratch, you're still going to have to have access to the necessary tools, albeit not necessarily from Stew-Mac. And you are also going to have to source the wood and other supplies. So there are many considerations. Here are a few links:

http://www.lmii.com/

http://www.roberto-venn.com/

http://www.bluescreekguitars.com/

http://www.youtube.com/user/BluesCreekGuitars

http://www.finocchioguitar.com/

(Disclaimer: I know Frank personally)

Perhaps the thing to do is to take the Stew-Mac kit as the starting point--the first step in researching all that is out there. Once you feel that you have done all of your homework and weighed all of the factors, then you can make a decision that you will be comfortable with. It's still early. 

[dj]

I've been interested in building my own acoustic guitars for years. I was thinking that this kit might be a good way to jump in and get my feet wet.

If you just want to get your feet wet, but on a low budget, build something simpler, like a dulcimer.  You'll learn the same skills - bending, fretting, finishing - but with a simpler design and less material.

Also, don't look at the cost as the cost of a guitar.  You'll be acquiring tools and skills that you can use lots of places.  Learning luthiery techniques will help your finish carpentry and furniture repair skills, and clamps and fret saws come in handy on all sorts of projects.  (No, I'm not being silly or ironic.  They really do.)   

 

[Stuart]

I second dj's opinion re: tools. It's really an investment that will pay dividends over a lifetime of use. If you decide to go the Stew-Mac kit route, try to buy "dual use" tools--ones that aren't guitar making specific, but can do the job just as well and can also be used for a wider range of applications. The Stew-Mac products are nice, but many are guitar specific and there are generic substitutes that will do the job--and also many others.

[nobocaster]

  I've never built a kit guitar, but it seems like an OK way to get your feet wet.  Like O'Muck said, it is more about assembling and finishing.  Depending on your current skill set, that may prove to be highly rewarding.  You would definitely not need $1400 worth of tools.  Stew-mac is a great company and I use some of their tools and products, but they also sell a lot of unnecessary tools and jigs that most working luthiers would never buy.  They cater heavily to the hobbyist market as well as professional.  I think instrument builders tend to be crafty people who make our own stuff, including tools and jigs.  I would check out Cumpiano's book .. http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Book/textbook.html ..buy the kit, make, borrow, or buy some clamps, and have some fun with it.  There's a couple more good books out there too, and most describe how to build a guitar without dropping a grand at a specialized tool company.  If you wanted to get more serious about it, there are good schools and apprenticeship opportunities.

  As far as it being like the old Stella's and whatnot..  it won't be, but it will probably still sound great.

Ladder braced guitars have an inferior sound compared to modern guitars. They sound flatter due to the sound boards reduced ability to vibrate.

  I disagree.  Ladder bracing does not impede the movement of the soundboard.  It certainly shows a different pattern of vibration than with X bracing, but the ability to vibrate is not reduced unless the bracing material itself is thicker and heavier.  This was the case on some of our old beloved ladder braced guitars, thick, rough cut bracing with little attention paid to carving a final shape or tuning, but not all.  There is certainly a difference in the sound of ladder braced and X braced guitars, but I wouldn't call one or the other flat or inferior.

[jrn]

Thanks for all the great advice guys! I'm definitely going to research this more. The price on tools and supplies sure blew the wind out of my sails. Looks like it can be done for far less though.

I'm a hands on guy, so no problem there. The only tools I have are mechanics and electrician tools. Nothing as far as building guitars is concerned though.

[Pan]

I'm just a guitarist, with zero experience on building. To get my feet wet I think looking for a beginners guitar building workshop might be a viable option, especially considering the price of the kit + tools you mention. You would benefit from both professional advice, and access to all the tools necessary.
Oh, and I disagree too about the "inferiority" of ladder braced guitars too. They are certainly different, but I wouldn't call them inferior.

just my 2 cents
Cheers
Pan

[Rivers]

Ladder braced guitars have an inferior sound compared to modern guitars. They sound flatter due to the sound boards reduced ability to vibrate.

Whaaaat? Sorry, I can't let that one go by without a challenge. Flatter? What does that mean exactly? Lacking in depth, or lacking in the unwanted mushy bass overtones that are able to propagate due to inadequate bracing patterns characteristic of most modern guitars?

Had to get that off my chest, I thought I'd accidentally wandered into the Taylor forum for a moment there

Seriously though, you need to play some good ladder-braced guitars. I realize that it may not be quite so easy finding them in Scandanavia but it's worth the effort.

[yogi]

Use of the word "inferior"
I'm sorry for using that word, I didn't express myself very well. Come to think of it, "flatter" was probably an equally bad choice of a word. If I say that I think I can produce a wider range of tones from my x-braced guitars than I can on my ladder braced perhaps that's more true.
I've got three ladder braced guitars and I love them all. I agree with you who have disagreed with my post, again, sorry for my misleading expressions.
 /Yogi

[Rivers]

No problem Yogi, I was just standing up for the many members who actually prefer the ladder braced dynamic for country blues, including myself.

[jrn]

I wonder if there are any ladder braced kits...........

I'm off to look!

[Mr.OMuck]

On the subject of bracing:
You can find great guitars with ladder or   X bracing and dreadful examples of both so go by the sound of the individual guitar and not by bracing method. Also all the characteristics ascribed to one or the other method can also be found in either in my experience more reason to look with no precondeptions.Just my opinion.

[Mr.OMuck]

Btw according to my luthier friend Rick Kelly ladder bracing was abandoned not because of sonic issues but because of physical problems that developed in the tops such as warping and bubbling some of which were addressed by x bracing.

[Mr.OMuck]

Also if what you want is loud, punchy, with a minimum of sustain try a Maple
Guitar. Either bracing method.

[nobocaster]

On the subject of bracing:
You can find great guitars with ladder or   X bracing and dreadful examples of both so go by the sound of the individual guitar and not by bracing method. Also all the characteristics ascribed to one or the other method can also be found in either in my experience more reason to look with no precondeptions.Just my opinion.

Agreed..  It would be inaccurate to generalize all guitars with one bracing style as having a specific sound.  There are so many factors that influence the final sound of a guitar including the type of woods, the thickness of the bracing, the weight of the bridge, bridge plate, depth of body, size of soundhole, the finish, etc...  Not to mention the skill, care and mood of the builder.  If you had the same guy make two guitars identical in every way except the bracing, of course they would sound quite different.

  In my opinion, X bracing is definitely structurally "better" than ladder bracing.  With the X, the top is supported in a more evenly spread out way and holds it's shape under tension better.  Most ladder braced tops that I've seen tend to flex in a more dramatic wave, where an X braced top will have a more even belly.  I've also seen fairly flat and stable ladder tops and totally warped X tops.  If the action is good, and you like the sound of a guitar, then a little warp and belly in a top shouldn't matter (as long as it's not getting worse).  I like a guitar with a top that's light and thin enough to flex, but still strong enough to hold that tension.

[jrn]

Thanks for the info guys!  I really appreciate it!! Lot of great points.

I might have to look for a complete OOO 12 fret model now. Looks like Recording King has some that fit my thin wallet. Might try to play a few soon.

I certainly like the idea of a building class rather than a kit.

Thanks again

[bnemerov]

check out the one I'm playing in the "Church Full O'Singers" thread (Performance Corner)....long-scale 12fret slothead mahogany & spruce. Less than $300 (street price).
best,
bruce

[jrn]

I'm going to check it out now. Thanks!

[Rivers]

I own good x-braced guitars and one good ladder braced guitar. They are different, and that's all I'm saying. I personally entertain no internal arguments about which are better.

Don't get stuck on sweeping generalizations that one something-or-other has to be superior to another. They are different, that's all. Pick the right tool for your particular job, whatever that happens to be. For metalwork I pick up a ball pein hammer, for house carpentry give me a claw hammer so I can pull out the nails I tend to bend. They are different tools. And so it is with guitars.

[nobocaster]

To clarify, by saying X bracing is structurally "better", I just mean from an engineering standpoint.  (not that I'm an engineer).  I don't mean it makes a better instrument.  Building a guitar out of 3/4" plywood would be structurally superior also but it would sound less than ideal!  I'm generally a pretty staunch defender of ladder bracing against modern misconceptions.  I build and play guitars with both styles of bracing (and occasional variations too).

[westside ryan]

When my friend was at the NAMM show he noticed that Recording King was coming out with a parlor guitar  (which I think now to be the RPH-05) in what they were calling their Dirty Thirties series.  The Rep said that it was reminiscent of the old Stellas.  My friend asked if it was ladder braced and was told no, that a ladder braced guitar wouldn't hold up like an x-braced would and that they couldn't afford to warranty a ladder braced guitar! 

I have owned and played many x-braced and ladder braced guitars and have found great sounding and bad sounding examples of both!  The last ladder braced guitar that I owned was a late 20's First Hawaiian Conservatory Stella.  I honestly thought the guitar sounded pretty bad, but have heard good examples on-line.  I also recently purchased 2 Art & Lutherie AMI guitars which I think sound great!

[jrn]

I keep hearing good things about those A&L ami guitars!