Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The song is Bull City Red's "I Won't Be Dogged Around", and the questions are as follows:



INTRO

Now, you said you been worried, havin' trouble all of your life
Well, you said you been worried, havin' trouble all of your life
But you never had no trouble 'til you fall for another man's wife

When you get a woman of your own and make her happy, night and day
When you get a woman of your own, make her happy, night and day
Then she'll fall for some no-good man and pretty soon she'll go astray

Lawdy, Lawdy, Lawdy, Lawdy, Law
Lawdy, Lawdy, Lawdy, Lawdy, Lawd
Lawd, the woman I love treats me like a doggone dog

But I ain't no dog and I won't be dogged around
Mmmm, I ain't no dog and I won't be dogged around
Before I stand your doggin', babe, I'll leave this town

SOLO

Don't the moon look pretty, shinin' down on them trees?
Don't the moon look pretty, shinin' on them trees?
And I can see my little woman, but she can't see me

SOLO


   * What playing position/tuning does he use to play the song?
   * The song opens with him playing brushed triplets in the treble.  Assuming he was not playing with a capo and was sounding in the same key as the position he was playing in, where would he have fretted those three different places he brushes the triplets?
   * Describe the form of the song, either indicating the chords he used to play it or numeric designations, like I, IV and V.
   * His signature lick has two different versions.  Where does he fret the version that he plays from :21-:23, and where does he fret the version he plays from :47-:50?
   * Where does he fret his final walk-down, from 3:03-3:05?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to figure out your answers, and please don't post any answers before Friday morning, August 29, so that lots of folks can have an opportunity to figure out their answers without being too swayed by answers that have already been posted.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
 

[One-Eyed Ross]

Oh, the joy of listening to music.  At first, I thought this was a Blind Boy Fulle song....has that kind of feel to it.

This sounds like a simple I-IV-I-IV-V-IV-I song...at first.

What I can say is I believe this is in E flat.  After that, I'm real confused.  If it were a Blind Willie song, I'd say he was tuned down standard and playing E flat out a C shape, but the base doesn't sound low enough for that.  Then I thought maybe tuned down a bit and playing out of D position....maybe.  But what works for me is using a capo and playing a C shape, with that BBF sound to it.

Since I can't get the position/tuning right, I'll leave the rest to someone else....

[Old Man Ned]

Yeah, it definitely has a Blind Boy Fuller feel to it.  Apologies for the brevity of this but I've got to dash and haven't been able to give it all the time it deserves but here's what I've got:
Capo on 3rd fret and played out of C as One Eyed Ross suggests.
Opening brushed triplets are 1st string 3rd fret, 2nd str 5th fret, then moving up one and a half steps (but I've not fully convinced myself on this)
Form of the song - sorry, ran out of time
Signature lick: I got as 2nd string going down 4,3,2,1 frets; open 3rd str; 1st str going down 3,2,1 frets then 2nd str 4th fret 2nd str 1st fret.  This what I got for the first one but didn't have time to figure out the other fingering
The walked down goes from 3rd str 9 fret and 2nd str 8 fret down a half step till you end up at the 5th fret on the 2 ?& 3 strings.

Phew, not at all familiar with Bull City Red, bet he got fed up of folk telling him he sounded like Blind Boy Fuller.....

Got to go......looking forward to any other thoughts and the answer.

All the best

[Prof Scratchy]

OK, here's my take on the questions, in order of appearance (though I failed miserably on the second version of the signature lick)!

1 standard tuning C position capo 3rd fret

2 string/fret: 1/3 2/5: 1/5 2/7: 1/3 2/5: 1/1 2/3

3 IV///  I/ V/ 1/I V///  I/ V/ 1/ V/// 1/ V/ I/

4 string/fret: 5/3: 2/4310: 6/3: 2/0: 1/3210 to C chord

5 3rd and 2nd string fretted at 8/7/6 to C chord

[mr mando]

Here's what I hear:

Q: What playing position/tuning does he use to play the song?
A: C position standard / tuning capoed up

Q: The song opens with him playing brushed triplets in the treble.  Where would he have fretted those three different places he brushes the triplets?
A: first and second strings 3/5, then 5/7, then 2/4, then back to 3/5

Q: Describe the form of the song.
A: the solos differ a little, but for the verses I would say: IV - IV - I/V - I - IV - IV - I/V - I - V - V - I/V - I

Q: His signature lick has two different versions.  Where does he fret the version that he plays from :21-:23, and where does he fret the version he plays from :47-:50?
A: I hear only a small difference for those two licks, and I guess they're both played in first position.

The version he plays from :21-:23 would be:

C chord on beat one, a triplet on the second string 3b-3-1 (3b would be 3rd fret bent up a half step), on beat three broken triplet with open B string with a G in the bass (V chord) and 3rd fret first string, 4th beat triplet on top string 2-1-0, then a C chord with the high G on the top tring for beat one of the next bar.

The version he plays from :47-:50 differs only on beats three and four to my ear. Beat three triplet open B string with a G in the bass-3rd fret first string- 2nd fret first string, 4th beat triplet first string first fret- second string fourth fret-first string open, then again a C chord with the high G on the top string for the next bar.

Q: Where does he fret his final walk-down, from 3:03-3:05?
A: first and second strings 3/5, 2/4, 1/3, 0/1, as indicated by the G7-C chord change right after, which sound like typical first position chords to me.

[banjochris]

Phew, not at all familiar with Bull City Red, bet he got fed up of folk telling him he sounded like Blind Boy Fuller.....

Since he was Fuller's regular washboard player, my guess is he wouldn't have been too upset

[Gumbo]

I'm in on the C position capo'd at 3

seems like he applies the play it twice rule to the triplets. I'm guessing the 2/4 was accidental. 3/5 5/7 2/4 3/5

[Pan]

Hi all

Agreed on C position, sounding at around E flat.

I think Mr. Mando nailed the brushed triplets.

As for the song form, the intro and solo are 8 bars long, with an implied II chord, as Mr. Mando had in describing the triplets. The vocal verse is 12 bars long, starting with the IV chord:

||: IV | IV | I V | I |

| IV | IV | I V | I |

| V | V | I V | I :||

I think Mr. Mando nailed the signature licks as well.

For the final walk down, I hear a little surprising run-down in minor thirds, instead of the usual major thirds that you would expect: 1st string 3rd fret/ 2nd string 4th fret; then move the same fingering down chromatically one fret; then another; then  open 1st string/2nd string 1st fret; then followed by G7 and C chords.

Cheers

Pan

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Thanks to all of you who responded.  I'm happy that every single responder had the playing position right--C position, sounding at around E flat.  As for the other questions that were asked, the answers are as follows:
   * The form of the song, for the sung portions, is a 12-bar blues with the first two four-bar phrases starting on the IV chord.  The last two bars of each of the 4-bar phrases are harmonically identical because that is where Bull City Red played his signature lick.  So the form, which was correctly identified by mr mando and Pan, is:

   |    IV    |    IV    |  I  V   |    I    |

   |    IV    |    IV    |  I  V   |    I    |

   |    V     |     V     |  I  V   |    I    |
   * The three double stops that Bull City Red played at the beginning of the song were correctly identified by mr mando, Gumbo and Pan.  On the first two strings, going from second string to first, they were 5-3, 7-5, 4-2 5-3.
   *  The versions of the signature lick from :21-:23 and from :47-:50 were correctly identified by mr mando.  I think it is interesting that two versions of the lick consist of the same notes, but that the second version arrives at the brushed 1-3 on the second and first strings on the last note of the fourth beat triplet, while the earlier version of the signature lick doesn't arrive at the same place until the downbeat of the fourth measure.
   * Pan had the concluding walk-down correct.  It is definitely an odd one, because normally walk-downs start with two harmonizing chord tones, most often the third and the fifth, but sometimes the fifth and the bVII.  Bull City Red's walks down chromatically, on the second and first strings as listed here, from 4-3 to 3-2 to 2-1 to 1-0.  If we look at those notes, we see that one reason the walk-down has an odd cast to it is that he begins with a bIII on the second string and a V note on the first string.  Here's what he ends up with:

Second string frets:   4   3   2   1
Second string notes: Eb D  Db  C
First string frets:       3   2   1   0
First string notes:     G  F#  F   E

The Db-F double stop is a particularly odd-sounding one in the key of C, but the whole walk-down has a slightly twisted quality to it.

I feel like people are basically hearing things pretty well, and in fact every question about the song was answered correctly by at least one or more people.  Good work!  I really like this song and hope to hear one of you play it some day.  Thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm

[One-Eyed Ross]

Thanks, John, for the update - I confess I was confused at first when you talked about "assuming he was not playing with a capo..."  Took me a few minutes to understand what you were meaning...(I'm easily confused some days, she tells me)....

It is a great tune, and now that greater brains than mine have dissected it a bit more than I did, I will be adding this one to my list.  As you said, it is a great tune....gotta work on them licks. 

Keep this going.  Love it.

[blueshome]

Just got to this as I've been away from the internet and JM has now trumped anything that could be said. The form felt to me like a 16bar blues with the first 4 bars omitted.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for those who are interested.  The song is "West Side Blues", as performed by Willie Harris on guitar and an un-named pianist.  Here is the performance:



The questions for "West Side Blues" are as follows:
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Harris use to play the song?
   * Where is he fretting the position he begins the form with at :08-:09?
   * What is he fretting at :13-:14, as he winds up his first four bars?
   * What are the five places he frets the descending passage on two treble strings, from 2:29-2:34?

As always, please use only your ears and instrument to come up with your answers.  Please don't post any answers until Tuesday morning, September 2.  Answer as many or as few of the questions as you wish.  I hope you enjoy listening to the tune.  I love this duo's time.  Thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm

[Gumbo]

Ok here's my go at it. Who is the vocalist and does she mention West Side blues at all?

position/tuning of F/standard

fretting a D shape F at the 5th and 6th (xxx565) at 08s

at 13s it sounds like 3rd string 8,7,5,open - 4th string 7 - 3rd string 5 - 4th string open,5,3

the descending riff 2:28 sounds like (1st/2nd strings)
13/11 (x4)
11/9 (x4)
10/8 (x4)
8/6 (x2)
5/3
3/1
1/1

[Old Man Ned]

In agreement with F/standard tuning.  For the bit at 8 secs, the D position at the 5th & 6th fret sounds a little bit flat to me.  I'm hearing it more at the 8th & 9th fret (1st, 2nd str respectively).  The run that follows this, I'm getting 2nd str: 4th, 3rd 1st fret, 3rd str 1st fret hammer on to 2nd fret. then 5th str 3rd fret, open 4th str followed by 4ht str at 3rd fret.

For the 5 descending positions, I'm having real trouble hearing where the first one is but I'm going for the D position right up at the 12th & 13th fret, and bringing that down to 10th & 11th fret; 8th & 9th fret, 5th & 6th fret and ending on 1st str/1st fret, 2nd str/3rd fret, but not all together confident on that.

All the best,
L

[blueshome]

Agree key of F. Not sure whether it's dropped D or Vestapol though. the licks on the 1st 2 strings would be the same except moved up 2 frets, i.e. 5/6bend or 7/8 bend. Struggling like Ned with the descending lick.