WeenieCampbell.com
Country Blues => Weenie Campbell Main Forum => Topic started by: jharris on July 12, 2010, 01:44:49 PM
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I received an email through my website from artist Steve Chandler regarding the identification of a photo. As far as I know he's only shown this to Tefteller who drew a blank. Any guesses? Here's the front and back.
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Jeff H.
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The guy who's standing looks a little like Hacksaw Harney to me.
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The guy who's standing looks a little like Hacksaw Harney to me.
That's interesting. The first time I saw the photo I thought of Hacksaw.
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For comparison, there's a photo of Hacksaw in his later years along the left hand border of the Harney page that Stefan Wirz has on his discography website.
http://www.wirz.de/music/adelpfrm.htm
And I'm going to go way out on a limb here, something about the other guy's mouth and eyes made me think of Johnny Shines, but that was just a quick first impression, don't wanna bet the farm on it. I looked around the Web for a photo of Shines as a young 'un, couldn't find anything.
According to Stefan's website, Hacksaw was born in 1902 and Shines in 1915. That would make Hacksaw 35 and Shines 22 in that picture, if that's them.
Lindy
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Hi all,
Why not look for guitar duo recordings in Dixon and Godrich from '36--'38? If the photo is anything more than two friends who played guitar together, most likely it would be of a working duo, in which case it might be a recording duo.
All best,
Johnm
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Fort Smith is in extreme western Arkansas, right on the Oklahoma border, about 150 miles southeast of Tulsa. If they were Fort Smith locals, there's a very good chance the world never heard of them.
They seem to have similar, if not matching, jackets, so were probably playing at the time as a regular duo. Johnm's suggestion of looking for guitar duos c. 1937 is an interesting one. Looking through what I've got on iTunes, there aren't many possibilities, assuming the duo was from Arkansas. Arkansas shorty (James McComb) and his unknown partner, perhaps? Or the Two Charlies?
One last thought, which should be obvious, but I'll say it anyway. We have no way of telling that this is a "Blues Photo". It's two African American musicians who played guitar. They may have specialized in country, western, gospel, pop, or polkas for all we know.
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You're right about that, SpikeDriver, and I thought about that possibility, but I believe Maylon was murdered several years prior to 1937. I am not sure of the date of that, though.
All best,
Johnm
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Clyde Stewart - that would be great!
As far as my memory - and that of some great old musicians and relatives - goes, there was never a 'true' (in one piece, not mutilated, etc.) photo of him.
The bits of music that I've heard the old guys played that were attributed to Stewart were exceptional. Particularly since he had that issue with his fingers.
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He was really an obscure player...
I'll say. I've never heard of him. He's not mentioned in B&GR4, either as an artist or an accompanist, or in Fancourt & McGrath as an artist. Any biographical and/or discographical information would be appreciated.
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heelo
maybe some unknown musicians. arkansas was`nt really favoured by the recording companies, as far as I know, no recording took place in the 3o`s.
a closer look at the seated musician shows, that he has a bottleneck. so if its a known musician it could be john lee, who recorded the classic "blinds blues" in the 5o`s. I will compare this pic with an early one in wardlows book.
blues`in yours
mike
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I'm no expert on this sort of thing but the guy standing looks to me somewhat like Bill Gaither.
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no, gaither no for shure,had`nt left chicago until drafted. I think they are locals. always bear in mind, that there had been 1oos of musicians, who never recorded.
mike
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He was really an obscure player...
I'll say. I've never heard of him. He's not mentioned in B&GR4, either as an artist or an accompanist, or in Fancourt & McGrath as an artist. Any biographical and/or discographical information would be appreciated.
All that I know about Clyde Stewart is from old relatives and friends/neighbors. He lived in Arkansas - don't know if he was born there or not, but he definitely lived there.
Some type of childhood accident caused him to lose pretty much two fingers on his right hand. I believe that it was a wood chopping type of thing with a brother.
At any rate, he had one or two songs recorded on a real obscure label. The 'locals' always referred to him as the best picker they'd ever heard. He played other songs, because I had heard them 'covered', but didn't really have any real recording stuff going on. I know he was usually mentioned with other greats of the time, and might have them. Lots of old stories of 'remember when he met so-and-so', that type of thing. I know that's vague,
but that's all I'm remembering right now.
From what I recall his tunes were known for incredible hooks with all sorts of clever derivations that made his tunes stand out. When I heard anyone play his stuff, everyone's ears stood up. Unique, gutsy, deep-down Delta
stuff.
Not much else that I recall at this time. I'll think on it a bit.
Anyone else have anything they know about him? I'm sure others have something to add to this, I can't be the only one!
(Sorry- don't mean to hijack the thread. This might need to be a separate one all together.)
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All that I know about Clyde Stewart is... Unique, gutsy, deep-down Delta stuff.... I'm sure others have something to add to this, I can't be the only one!
:P
Funny! But let's not.
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True, but don't.
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Hi all,
Judging from the fact that all of the fingers on his right hand are held in the same degree of flexion to make contact with the strings, the guitarist in the left of the duo picture would not appear to be Clyde Stewart, particularly if Clyde Stewart lost his digits in a childhood accident.
All best,
Johnm
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I would agree.
I had heard the finger story a long time ago. I don't remember if it was supposed to be the entire finger, just the 'ends', or whatever.
I do remember everyone agreeing with the story as if it were true, but who knows?
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Hi everyone. I had to hop in on this one. When I first heard about Clyde Stewart years ago, I was connected immediately because we have similar names. It is true that he lost two fingertips on his pickin' hand in a childhood accident. From the limited images I've ever seen of him, that may very well be him standing in the photograph. I wonder if the guy sitting is Ben Maree.. who played with Clyde on those 2 songs. Ben also ran with Patton and lived near Boyle MS... which is where, I believe, Clyde was from. If anyone can verify that this is in fact Clyde Stewart, this would be a huge day in Southern Blues history.
As the slogan said, "he played great with only eight."
Lyle
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Great first post, Lyle, appreciate the clarification. Welcome to Weenie.
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Lyle -
Do you have that - or any, for that matter - photos of Clyde Stewart?
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But by 1937, Ben Maree would have been around fifty years of age (if the 1887 date of birth is right) ; the seated guitarist doesn't look so old as that to me.
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On one visit Bernie asked me my opinion on a recording that he recently bought at an auction which he said was a 'rare find.'
Toby, why is there no record of this recording.... anywhere?
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Perhaps Clyde Stewart shoveled horseshit for a living.
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Ah, one of those obscure professions.
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Lyle -
Do you have that - or any, for that matter - photos of Clyde Stewart?
Sorry, I don't have any photos of Clyde. I saw one about 30 years ago during a trip through Mississippi. Haven't seen one since.
It's great to know that Bernie had a copy of those recordings though. I find that extremely heartening since I've been looking for those for quite a few years. Bernie was a giant when it came to collecting super rare recordings. He's responsible for discovering a bunch of that type of stuff during his extensive travels down south. He's the reason that a lot of these "obscure" recordings are not obscure anymore. He got them into the hands of the public. If only he could have done this with the Stewart recordings...................
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Hi all,
It could be Clyde Stewart in the photo. It could also be the amazing Lamar Vance, or Crazy Daddy Wilson, or Sidney Hochstetter, or even Big Hat Jones.
All best,
Johnm
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Sidney Hochstetter
:P
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Hi Toby,
Please understand that you are dealing with a bunch of skeptics. :) There have been plenty of spoofs of "obscure bluesmen" and since there is no confirmation of of the recordings(which is strange if indeed Bernie of Blues Mafia fame has had a rare 78 in his possession for over 25 years) or the man --- so I, at least, consider "Clyde Stewart" to be bogus. I'd love to be proven wrong however.
Thanks,
slack
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That's a nice photograph.
Field recordings were made in both Birmingham and Hot Springs, Ark. Gennett recorded no less a luminary than William Harris in Birmingham during 1927 and also eighteen titles by Jaybird Coleman. Vocalion recorded gospel material in the same city the following year. ARC had sessions in both Birmingham and Hot Springs in 1937. Ft. Smith is about 140 miles from Hot Springs.
Ref. Dixon and Godrich "Recording The Blues". Studio Vista 1970.
For what it's worth, there is no mention in 78 Quarterly No. 10 "The Rarest 78s" (1960's blues collectors' musings) of anyone ever having a recording by a "Clyde Stewart".
Gerry
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For what it's worth, there is no mention in 78 Quarterly No. 10 "The Rarest 78s" (1960's blues collectors' musings) of anyone ever having a recording by a "Clyde Stewart".
I was just going to post that if Klatzko had a record, he for some reason hid it from Pete Whelan, as it's absent from the very long (covering multiple issues), very detailed list Gerry mentions.
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Let's have corroboration of Clyde Stewart's existence from a living collector, say Joe Bussard, or scholar, say David Evans or Gayle Dean Wardlow, citing Clyde's recorded titles, the company, date of release, et al. Pending receipt of same, I'd say Clyde is a fictional creation concocted for a practical joke on the Weenie site.
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All I can tell you is what I remember, and that is from years ago.
Unless those people were putting me on, I always believed that he existed. Can't show you a book he's in or show
you a record he produced, I can only tell you what my memory tells me.
Either way, we still don't know for sure who's in the photo. I'm guessing it could be anyone.
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No one seems prepared to say it so I will.
There is no Clyde Stewart.
Actually of course there are probably lots of Clyde Stewarts. Some may even play guitar and conceivably look like the gent in the photo but there is no Clyde Stewart who recorded for Vocalion or any other company pre war.
Being completely ungullible I sussed this instantly and have had this confirmed by hours of tedious googling.
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I can only go by what I remembered when I was young.
I'm sure there are many players who didn't have a 'formal' record of their existence, but they did indeed
live and play and contribute. Not famous enough, probably. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Believe what you want. Doesn't matter.
Back to the OP - who's the leaders for being in the photo?
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No one seems prepared to say it so I will.
There is no Clyde Stewart.
Actually of course there are probably lots of Clyde Stewarts. Some may even play guitar and conceivably look like the gent in the photo but there is no Clyde Stewart who recorded for Vocalion or any other company pre war.
Being completely ungullible I sussed this instantly and have had this confirmed by hours of tedious googling.
Maybe during your hours of tedious googling you should have spent a few minutes over at Toby Walker's website. I did just that yesterday. He is a seriously accomplished acoustic blues musician who has collected accolades from, and played alongside some very heavy hitters. It is impossible for me to believe that he concocted some BS story just for entertainment purposes. He has a reputation and a career in blues music, as well as over 30 years of traveling throughout the southern US and living the blues music life. I don't know too many folks who would risk that for a hoax.
As for the original photo, heaven forbid it's someone Tony Gilroy never heard of. It had better be someone really googleable or this poor guys head might explode.
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You seem more angry than you need.
I'm sure the photo is genuine and it is more than likely of people who never recorded.
I do not believe that a Clyde Stewart recorded pre war.
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Lyle (or whatever your real name is),
As I said, I'd love to be proven wrong - but so far it looks like a hoax, or an attempted one anyway. Several problems with this Clyde Stewart diversion... the biggest, IMO, being a claim that a 78 was in possession of Bernie. The other being that the "lkn2myyis" - the email used by this account is a known friend of Tobys. I imagine you are too. Brand new IDs confirming unknown bluesman -- hmmm?
I don't think it is unfair for a forum, whose knowledge runs wide and deep, to ask for proof of a bluesman, a fantastic guitar player, who was recorded, and whose recording is in possession of a blues researcher/historian.... and that no one has ever heard before. Imagine that?
Bottom line is that folks don't like their time being wasted and you all have done nothing to provide any credibility. Not good.
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Let's have corroboration of Clyde Stewart's existence from a living collector, say Joe Bussard...
Interesting thought: Could Joe Bussard be responsible for "Clyde Stewart"? In other words, did Fonotone ever release a 78 of John Fahey or Mike Stewart or some other young guy under the pseudonym of "Clyde Stewart"? I doubt that the world will ever see a complete Fonotone discography, since Joe was pressing them up in his basement. But that whole crew certainly did like to make up phony artists complete with biographical details and photos. See Fahey as Blind Joe Death, illustrated with a photo of Joe Taggart, as the most famous example. Klatzko certainly could have had some Fonotones and enjoyed the odd joke.
Who knows?
I'd be interested in any further discussion of the photograph that started this thread, but I'm done with Clyde Stewart.
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Slack,
I jumped on to this forum for exactly that reason you stated. The folks on here are extremely knowledgeable. My hope was they could help me get info I was looking for because of this breadth of knowledge. As dj said in a later post, maybe it was an odd joked hatched many years ago. I have no idea. If Stewart is a hoax, then I have surely been played as well. I am not here to waste anyone's time. If anyone feels that I did, than I apologize. I was just hoping that folks with much greater knowledge and much greater resources than I have, could shed some light for me.
As dj said, I'd certainly be interested in some additional discussion of the original photo that started this thread, and I too am done with Clyde Stewart.
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Thanks Lyle, appreciate it.
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I like the stories about John Fahey pressing up recordings of himself on 78 records, scratching and distressing them and then slipping them into the bins in a thrift shop for some unsuspecting collector to find.
Oh, well who cares about Clyde Stewart? I'm off to listen to my 78s by Deaf Boy Smedley and Caught Short Williamson...
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Sorry, but I'm done.
I do know Toby, which is what drew me to this sight. He is an encyclopedia of the blues in my mind, and when I saw his post, I felt someone was coming up with something that I had only thought I had heard of. No ill intent meant by any means. I'll eMail him privately and talk about it, not a problem.
If this caused people to 'waste their time', you have my apologies. That was certainly not my intent.
I'm always interested in finding out more information about the blues, and if there is none about this topic her, so be it. Not a problem.
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Absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence, as the old saying goes. There are musicians on some of the reissue compilations about who nothing is known. And there were musicians who only cut a few sides or never were recorded, as well as records that remained undiscovered, such as the Blind Blake 78 that turned up a couple of years ago. So it's possible that Clyde Stewart recorded a couple of sides, but never had a high enough profile so that his records and his name were in wide circulation, regardless of his talents.
We've all seen spoofs, so it's pretty much a case of buyer beware in situations like this around here. We're predisposed to be skeptical. But sometimes the unlikely and unsupported turns out to be true. I'm willing to give Toby (as well as the others) the benefit of the doubt on this one as I don't think he would be foolish enough to waste his own time. There are more important things to do.
It's possible that someone on the PWBG list has some info on Clyde Stewart, so it might be worth a post.
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It's probably a photo of The Big Sunflower of fame and legend.
pbl
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didn't Clyde Stewart do the "answer" song "Drop Up Mama" to the 1935 Sleepy John Estes song "Drop Down Mama" ?
I regrettably only have a label pic of the British Brunswick 03565, not of the original record on Champion ... >:D
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Remembering the late, great Buck Hammer:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,894354,00.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/the-discovery-of-buck-hammer-1959-album-by-buck-hammer
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:3pfwxqr5ldse
Gone too soon... Buck, we hardly knew ye...
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... and how about Otis 'Elevator' Gilmore ...
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I remember Otis. I vaguely recall that his career was never the same after the bust for pushing uppers and downers.
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You forgot to carry the concentric circular indentation mark closest to the hole through the title Stefan. Good try though. ;)
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You forgot to carry the concentric circular indentation mark closest to the hole through the title Stefan. Good try though. ;)
... since I don't have the intention to sell this record to anyone, it was less a question of "forgetting" but one of how much of my lifetime I'd have to spend doing so ... :D
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Great to see the Mystery Bluesman Photo being discussed here. When I bought the photo, I thought the sitting man looked like a very young Honeyboy Edwards. I had my guesses about the standing man, but when Jeff mentioned Hacksaw, he looked to be pretty darn close to me. Messing around with the opacity on my photo in Photoshop and a known Hacksaw photo, I came up with the above montage. The top right is old Hacksaw over young one and the bottom is young over old Hacksaw. The only alteration was changing the head angle of each photo. The eyes line up perfect, the mouth, jaw cheeks, just about everything is dead-on considering there is over a thirty year age difference. I found the bridge of the nose between the eyes and the crease in his right cheek uncanny. My money is on Hacksaw, facial features/dimensions just don't match up that easy. Now, the big question, if it is Hacksaw, is that his brother? I have only been able to find one death certificate reference for a Maylon Harney and that was in Arkansas in 1928. I am going to spend the 10 bucks and send off for that death certificate. If it shows he was stabbed/murdered as maylon allegedly was, then I imagine it was Hacksaws brother. The next question is, was this photo taken in 1937 or was it taken earlier and then reprinted for Hacksaw or a relative in 1937 thus getting the stamp on the back. I've worked in a number of archival photography labs over the years and this is possible. An old reprint from the original negative could have a stamp on the back from the lab that did it. Of course this may be all wrong and I should just crawl back in my hole with my odd collection of photographs. It doesn't matter really, I'm hanging it next to my Charley Patton Smashing His Guitar at a Fish Fry Photo and my Blind Lemon Jefferson Playing The Drums with the Robert Johnson Square Dance Band snapshot. One last thing I noticed and it is just an observation nothing more, but I did see that in a couple of known photos of Hacksaw he had his collar turned up. Was that a Hacksaw thing?-coincidence?
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Seeing the detail of just the standing singer's face, is it just me or does he have a cleft lip?
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The guitars in the photo would date from mid-30's so confirming the date of the photo.
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Agree with Phil..guitars date to mid/late 30's, so the photo stamp is likely time of photo, too. I believe the guitar in the hands of the man standing is a Kalamazoo KG11 (Gibson-made); it has a unique, truncated body shape, and the one with the seated gent is possibly a Harmony, or other low-end factory guitar with painted-on binding, and solid head stocks were just emerging on mass produced instruments around this time.
I have no clue as to identity of the two guitarists, but, examining and comparing details of the standing man and the Hacksaw photo, I see a totally different chin structure between the two, plus a 'divot' (for lack of better word) in the lower right part of the chin of the gent standing, which does not appear in the Hacksaw photo. Plus, what Chris said about the 'cleft' upper lip, too. So, in my humble estimation, the gent standing is not Hacksaw Harney.
Very interesting stuff..Regards, Tom
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I still would consider the age difference and also the older photo he is smiling big with teeth as opposed to the old Hacksaw's slight smile. I still can't tell if the standing man has a mustache or what. About the guitars, I showed the pic to George Gruhn, he thought they might be a Regal brand, but was unsure. Another collector of these guitars (Google Bluesbox Collection) thought they were a brand of Kay. I thought the top was a Kalamazoo. I blew it up very large and you can see some sort of emblem under the logo-an oriole? Did all Kalamazoo's back then have pickguard's? There is a good bit of wear on the pickguard area of both guitars...maybe they played till the pickguard's fell off, I hate it when that happens.
Living Blues Magazine might be getting a copy to Honeyboy , we'll see what he says.
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GaRedMud: I agree with you, the standing man guitar is more than likely a Gibson-made piece, either Kalamazoo, Carson J. Robeson or other 'branded' Gibsons. I don't know of any other guitar that had the little bell-like shape of a Kalamazoo KG11, with the truncated upper bout. Some of these, the Carson J., lacked a pick guard. Although the guitar shows wear, I don't think the pick guard was 'played off', it never had one. Besides, the pg's on Gibsons of that era were under the finish/sunburst, and if removed, would leave a huge scar on the top. The KG11 was basically a new design beginning ca 1933, so this would be a new-ish guitar for the gent standing. The white script logo likely said 'Carson J. Robeson. The Gibson Orioles were blond instruments. But the point is, the guitars date the photo accurately; the id of the two gents, well that's another argument .. ;)
Here's a Carson J. I used to own..they're ladder braced guitars, and would have a sound consistent, to some extent, with that of Stellas of the era.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Compared to the very rich and detailed post that onewent just gave, I'm going to make the very lightweight observation that the guitars I've seen in pictures of Hacksaw have white trims on the faces and white around the soundholes, which might mean nothing, or an indication of simple stylistic favoritism over the years. My impression of a lot of the old timers is that they did not pay as much attention to the technical aspects of the guitars they purchased as we weenie-types do today, so the fact that a guitar had white trim in those spots may have been sufficient reason for a musician to buy it.
Yes, I'm leaning toward the Hacksaw camp on the photo question. I'm also feeling giddy at the thought of having 93 (94?)-year-old Honeyboy Edwards as an eyewitness who may be able to give a positive ID on the guys in the picture because he was there! Gotta love that!
On a related note, while looking at Stefan's discography page for Hacksaw I noticed two LPs that I'm not familiar with: The Memphis Blues Again, Vols. 1 and 2, on the Echo or Adelphi label, I imagine the second is a reissue. A lot of names I do not recognize. Any feedback on those LPs?
Lindy
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Oh, and then there's also Zeke's photo of a 'possible' RJ and Johnny Shines >:D
That was fun, too. Tom
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The standing fellow does appear to have a cleft lip and the photo of Richard Harney shows a faint scar in that area.
Usually ears & earlobes are a key to identity but its hard to discern the shape of Harney's earlobes in the newer photo. Nevertheless, the nose seems a match as does the chin the high cheekbones and the shape of the mouth and lips, correcting for the cleft and or mustache. I'm going with Richard Harney as the identity of the standing figure.
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Yes I know this post is old and am not sure if it is bad forum etiquette to bring it up, just thought a few of you would be interested to know David Honeyboy Edwards was recorded talking about this and another older photo. This was arranged via Living Blues Magazine and Edwards manager. I would attach the audio here, but don't know how.It is interesting hearing him talk about the photo, might put it in a Youtube vid at least.
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Yes I know this post is old and am not sure if it is bad forum etiquette to bring it up, just thought a few of you would be interested to know David Honeyboy Edwards was recorded talking about this and another older photo. This was arranged via Living Blues Magazine and Edwards manager. I would attach the audio here, but don't know how.It is interesting hearing him talk about the photo, might put it in a Youtube vid at least.
Etiquette can go hang.
The "Globe" icon just above the row of smiley faces (on the page you are directed to when you click "reply") is a hyperlink tool.
Edit it as follows to post your links (red font characters indicate where & what you should add:
[url=paste your link's url here]Write your own text here, indicating that this is where the link is.[/url]
I hope this: a; works & b; is helpful.
I really want to hear the Honeyboy interview, but right now I'm supposed to be working. So apart from the odd post here on the old WC, I don't have a lot of time to conduct non-work searches.
Looking forward to hearing the audio 8)