Country Blues > Weenie Campbell Main Forum
Vocal Phrasing--The Long And The Short of It
waxwing:
I guess I find that, for me, thinking of the guitar and the vocal as two seperate entities and believing that I can just put them together hasn't really worked in most instances. Those phrasings I seem easily capable of are, as I said, too square, driven by the guitar. I need to learn them together somehow, slowly feeling how they interact. I hope, in the long run, after experiencing many variations thru this, perhaps meticulous, process, that I will develop the ability to synthesize the interplay more spontaneously. It is my experience that after I am extremely familiar with a song, I am able to be more spontaneous with the vocal over the guitar, but this is after having played and sung a song dozens and dozens of times. I am incredibly envious of someone who can quickly learn a guitar part, sing along with the record a few times, and then put the two together in a spontaneous way, that is, none the less, true to the original, not a slap dash version.
I am currently struggling to put together the arrangement of Mississippi John Hurt's 1928 version of Avalon Blues, which I transcribed recently, with his, to me, very difficult vocal inflection. Of course, this song also employs the two pickup beats at the beginning of each sung line. The timing and even the subtle melody seem immensely difficult over the guitar. My attempts so far seem monotonic and too "on the beat". Very frustrating, and boring. And those guitar breaks are no snap, either. I'll get there, tho', and eventually I'll be able to loosen up with it. I have no illusons about getting it up to the young MJH's speed tho'.<G>
All for now.
John C.
dj:
--- Quote ---I think the whole issue of short and long phrasing is interesting because it illustrates the extent to which the blues, at least in its earlier stages, was driven rhythmically not by meter, but by pulse and phrase length.
--- End quote ---
Amen to that! Because country blues is usually heard in a concert setting today, we tend to forget that the pre-war players made their money playing for dances, and if they were to be at all successful, they had to accomodate the needs of the dancers and not of some academic theorist. I have no idea what kind of dances were done at jukes and piccolos around the South in the 20s and 30s, but I'm sure if I did it would shed a lot more light on both instrumental and vocal phrasing.
One of my peeves for years has been that when Frank Zappa, for example, throws in a few extra beats at the end of a line, he's hailed as a genius, but when Booker White did it, the comment was always "He doesn't have a good sense of time".
a2tom:
ah! a thread that speaks to my soul, or lack thereof! I don't have much to add, except a hearty "amen".
trying to avoid square on-the-beat lyrics and train wrecks here in a2,
tom
uncle bud:
--- Quote from: waxwing on January 20, 2005, 12:49:09 AM ---I guess I find that, for me, thinking of the guitar and the vocal as two seperate entities and believing that I can just put them together hasn't really worked in most instances. Those phrasings I seem easily capable of are, as I said, too square, driven by the guitar. I need to learn them together somehow, slowly feeling how they interact. I hope, in the long run, after experiencing many variations thru this, perhaps meticulous, process, that I will develop the ability to synthesize the interplay more spontaneously. It is my experience that after I am extremely familiar with a song, I am able to be more spontaneous with the vocal over the guitar, but this is after having played and sung a song dozens and dozens of times.
--- End quote ---
Hi Wax - yes, I know what you mean. In part, I guess it depends on the tune as well. In cases where the guitar part is an intricate picking pattern(s) or has fills that overlap with the vocal, it may work better at first to use your approach. Perhaps choosing a tune where this is not the case as an exercise might be good. I'm thinking for example of some of the 60s Joe Callicott material (like his version of Frankie mentioned above) where the guitar underneath the vocal is a lot of boom-chick stuff and what makes the tune is the vocal, the phrasing variations etc. Or a tune that's a very familiar form and progression, an 8 bar blues using I V IV like Slidin' Delta or Crow Jane. You've taken on some fairly adventurous material like Broke Down Engine, Scrapper Blackwell etc., that may not lend itself as easily to a different looser approach as early in the game as something like a common 8 bar form.
--- Quote ---I am currently struggling to put together the arrangement of Mississippi John Hurt's 1928 version of Avalon Blues, which I transcribed recently, with his, to me, very difficult vocal inflection. Of course, this song also employs the two pickup beats at the beginning of each sung line. The timing and even the subtle melody seem immensely difficult over the guitar. My attempts so far seem monotonic and too "on the beat". Very frustrating, and boring. And those guitar breaks are no snap, either. I'll get there, tho', and eventually I'll be able to loosen up with it. I have no illusons about getting it up to the young MJH's speed tho'.<G>
--- End quote ---
Avalon is great, I had started work on this one a while ago and have meant to pick it up again. Maybe we can compare notes later.
Johnm:
Hi John C.
I think I may have over-stated the value of inconsistency. In some instances, you want a rock-solid, consistent approach to phrasing; it certainly works beautifully in the Robert Wilkins numbers. In others, a more free-form approach may work really well (thinking of Robert Belfour or some Lil' Son Jackson).
I know that I never really feel strong with a tune until I am playing and singing it together, and unless I get the music prior to the lyrics I try to do them together always. Certainly "Avalon" is really tricky to sing and play simultaneously. I think this is partly because of the pared-back nature of the melody. It is more like a chant than song melody as we normally think of it. Moreover, its link-up with the accompaniment varies a great deal from verse to verse--some of those lines like "When I left Avalon, throwing kisses and waving at me" you really have to hustle to fit in! What a great song, though. I look forward to hearing you do it at Port Townsend.
All best,
Johnm
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