collapse

* Member Info

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
The blues'll kill you. And make you live, too. - Shirley Griffith, from Art Rosenbaum's notes to Saturday Blues

Author Topic: Miller's Breakdown  (Read 244520 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Old Man Ned

  • Member
  • Posts: 387
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1815 on: February 28, 2018, 01:31:20 PM »
I'll second what Prof said. Thanks again, so much to learn from these posts.

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1816 on: March 05, 2018, 11:33:19 AM »
Hi all,
Thanks, Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned, for your posts.  When I post the explanations, I'm sort of flying blind, in that I never know if anybody really reads them, so it's nice to hear that you find them useful.  I think we're about ready for a new puzzler, so I've selected Scott Dunbar's "Jay Bird", from Stefan Wirz's channel.  Here is "Jay Bird":



The questions on "Jay Bird" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Scott Dunbar use to play the song?
   * On what strings did Scott Dunbar play the passage from :53--:58, and where did he fret the strings he was playing there?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses until 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, March 8.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm

Offline Old Man Ned

  • Member
  • Posts: 387
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1817 on: March 09, 2018, 12:26:35 PM »
I'm hearing Scott Dunbar's "Jay Bird" out of Open D tuning.  Apart from the open first 3 strings I'm struggling to hear what's being played behind the vocal from :53--:58. I keep playing the top 3 strings against an alternating open 6th, 4th, 5th & 4th string and fretting the 2nd string at the 2nd fret but I think I'm trying to follow his voice. I'm sure he's fretting more than that.   

Offline Gumbo

  • Member
  • Posts: 870
  • So Papa climbed up on top of the house
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1818 on: March 10, 2018, 08:05:10 AM »
Johnm, I'd like to add my thanks for the in depth replies, and am sorry I don't spend as much time with them as would do them justice.

I try to take on what you said in relation to the Charles Cauldwell puzzle a couple of weeks ago:

... it doesn't help in determining playing position/tuning to set much store on the key in which a rendition sounds.  I just think of that as the key in which the song is sung.  Instead, listen to the internal relationships of the notes being played, and use them to inform your choice of playing position/tuning, which with the possible use of a capo or tuning high or low of standard pitch, really operates independent of the key at which the rendition sounds.

This lands for me because you said the same specifically to me a couple of years ago in this topic and I do try to listen that way. In my own playing , however, I rarely venture out of standard, so that instinctively becomes my reference when I'm listening. My starting point. I might hear something but when I pick up my guitar to check, it is in standard, so it feels like any progress from there is impeded by a large number of possible variations. At this point the actual chord being played seems useful to me as a reference. 'How could I get this chord and do any of those ways work?' is my approach i guess. And then I can go on to 'what sounds wrong and what do I have to change?'

So for this week's puzzler my process goes thus:
Sounds like D and G and I can find the bass notes kind of but not in a way that feels free around familiar chords. And Scott Dunbars playing is pretty free and easy. In fact he's having a ball and just keeps this fun little bass riff coming round matching the vocal melody. That seems to fit nicely in C position with a capo on 2, but it's not right for the open strings, and the top three are pretty much open all the way through i think. He tunes down one string at the start so I experiment tuning down the top string four steps, which makes me think maybe the capo is not necessary but one thing at a time or I'll get lost!
Tuning down the 2nd string so I don't need to hold that first fret starts to sound right. On the open strings. I can pick out the bass run around on the 4th and fifth strings, and it shifts nicely from D to G and back through that run.
So what do I have? With my capo still on 2. It's not quite open D tuning but almost? F#BEF#AD and using the (4th string 2nd fret, and the 5th string 3rd fret from my original C chord shape) to get the D and F# on those strings and to use the open strings in the bass run.

Yes this is how complex it seems to me too!

the run itself at .53 - .58
I have the same problem distinguishing through his vocal but he plays it clearly at the start and a couple of times later in the story it appears through a haze of hilarity.
4th string fret 3 open fret 3
5th string open
repeat
4th fret 3 open fret 2
5th fret 3

I'm guessing now that i should continue on and tune to open D and see if i can find it again, but this sounds pretty good.
Not sure i hear the 6th string at all.

Offline Prof Scratchy

  • Member
  • Posts: 1731
  • Howdy!
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1819 on: March 11, 2018, 03:55:41 AM »
Out on a limb here, but I?ll venture DADGBD for the tuning. I can?t make out what he plays under the refrain though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1820 on: March 12, 2018, 09:17:53 AM »
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Scott Dunbar "Jay Bird" puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm

Offline blueshome

  • Member
  • Posts: 1469
  • Step on it!
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1821 on: March 13, 2018, 03:28:33 AM »
Sorry I?m struggling with this one.

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1822 on: March 14, 2018, 12:37:48 PM »
Hi all,
It looks like everyone who intended to respond to the Scott Dunbar puzzler, "Jay Bird", has done so, so I will post the answers.

For Scott Dunbar's "Jay Bird":
   * His playing position was Vestapol tuning, tuned at open D
   * In the passage from :53--:58, Scott Dunbar is essentially doing a thumb lead for four measures.  In the first two measures, he is fingering and E minor or G6 chord, 0-2-2-1-0-0.  In the first measure he alternates his bass from the fifth string on beat one to the third string on beat two, then from the fourth string on beat three to a brush of the third and second strings on beat four.  In the second measure, he does the same alternation with his thumb, with the only difference being that he opens up on the third string for beat four.  For the third and fourth measures, he resolves to D, hitting all open strings with his thumb, alternating from the open fourth string on beat one to the open third string on beat two, a brush of the open sixth and fifth strings on beat three and the open third string again on beat four.  In both of the D measures, he brushes the open first string with his index finger on the + of beat four.

As Gumbo noted in his response, I've remarked in the past that the pitch at which a rendition sounds is a non-issue in terms of identifying the playing position/tuning in which a song is played.  If the pitch at which a rendition sounds doesn't help determine the playing position/tuning in which a song is played, what should you be listening for that will give more pertinent information?  Basically, playing position/tuning identifications are based on knowing what notes are made available by the different playing positions and tunings, and selecting from the different playing positions and tunings on that basis.  In speaking of what notes are made available in the different playing positions and tunings, I'm not speaking of specific pitches--the ability of players to tune high or low of standard pitch or use a capo makes specific pitches meaningless in this regard.  Rather, I'm speaking of notes of the scale, I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and the various chromatic degrees that fall in-between the scale tones, and where they sit in a playing position or tuning, especially in the bass.

If we think of Vestapol tuning in D, the notes of the open strings, ascending from the sixth string to the first are DADF#AD, which expressed as scale degrees in a D chord end up being R5R35R.  Because the open sixth string is a Root and the open 5th string is a V note, you will virtually never hear a IV chord played in Vestapol with a low root in the bass, except a IV chord played by barring at the fifth fret.  Connie Williams and Doug Quattlebaum are among the rare players in Vestapol who chose to play that root position IV chord by barring at the fifth fret.  The great majority of players in Vestapol, chose instead to voice the IV chord with its third, B, the VI note of the scale in the bass, fretting it at the second fret of the fifth string.  They then complete the IV chord by fretting the first fret of the third string, raising the F# up to G, getting the root of the IV chord there.  They may then choose either to double that B note on the fifth string, second fret, one octave higher at the second fret of the second string, or decide to leave the second string open, giving a drony sound which sort of keeps the open D sound going over the IV chord.

Unlike the IV chord, the V7 chord can be voiced with a low root in Vestapol, using the open fifth string.  If we think of Vestapol in D, as in the case of "Jay Bird", the V7 chord coming up from the root on the open fifth string would require fretting the second fret of the fourth string, E, to get the fifth of the V7 chord and the first fret of the third string, G, to get the seventh of the V7 chord.  The third of the V7 chord, C#, is very inconveniently located at the fourth fret of the second string, and almost no traditional player ever fretted that note, choosing instead to use the open second string, which doubles the root on the open fifth string.  You end up with a drony V7 chord then, one in which there is no third of the chord voiced.

What really helps in identifying playing positions/tunings is being able to hear the different scale degrees in the bass (first) and knowing what the different positions and tunings make available for you there.  If you also factor in whether the bass rises in pitch or goes down in pitch as you go to the bass notes in a I-IV-V progression in the different playing positions and tunings, you're well on your way to being able to identify playing position and tuning for most songs.  For example, in E position, standard tuning, you will never hear a note struck lower in pitch than the low root of the I chord--moreover, both the IV chord and V chord are easily available in root position, going up in pitch from the low I note.  In C position, standard tuning, the root of the I chord at the third fret of the fifth string is higher in pitch than the root of the IV chord, first fret, sixth string and the root of the V chord, third fret, sixth string, that you are most likely to use.  You can build these bass recognition skills by analyzing pieces you already know how to play and are very conversant with--listen to the movement in the bass of several songs you play out of the same playing position and note the consistency with which you put particular notes in the bass for the I, IV and V (or other) chords.  Go through the different playing positions and tunings you use, and work out where you play the bass in the I, IV and V chords, to start out, and whether the movement from I to IV to V involves going up or down in pitch in the different positions. 

Just as each playing position and tuning makes different choices available in the bass for voicing chords, so does each playing position and tuning make different licks and riffs easily available in the treble.  And sometimes treble cliches, like walking down on the third and first strings from the fourth to the third to the second fret and resolving into an E chord can help you identify when someone is playing in E position, standard tuning.  But very often, you can make the identification of playing position/tuning solely on the basis of what happens in the bass.

One other suggestion:  To build your ear-training skills, try to get in the habit of hearing a melody and identifying its placement in the scale.  If you can clearly hear that orientation in the scale, you always know where you are.  So, for example, "Oh Susanna", written as scale degrees would be I-II-III-V-V-VI-V-III-I-II-III-III-II-I-II in it's first line, "Oh I come from Alabama with a banjo on my knee".  Hearing where melodies live in the scale is really where the rubber meets the road in terms of improvising, too.  If you know that, you know where to go to get the sound you're seeking.

I hope that this description of process clarifies a bit why making identifications of playing position/tuning is more a matter of knowing what scale degrees are made available in each position/tuning and where they can be found than it is a matter of identifying specific notes or pitches.  So in this regard, having good relative pitch identification is far more valuable than having perfect pitch.  Perfect pitch may tell you that Charley Jordan played "Hunkie Tunkie" in Bb, but good relative pitch will tell you that he executed the piece out of E position in standard tuning sounding at Bb.

Thanks to the people who participated in the puzzler and I hope folks enjoyed "Jay Bird".  I'll look for another puzzler to post in a bit.  If any of the stuff I posted above seems unclear or a bit too much like gibberish, feel free to call me on it.
All best,
Johnm 
   
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 06:44:28 AM by Johnm »

Offline Old Man Ned

  • Member
  • Posts: 387
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1823 on: March 14, 2018, 03:16:00 PM »
"a bit too much like gibberish....." !!
It's the opposite to gibberish! This stuff's pure gold for me.

Thanks for taking the time to post such a thorough answer to the Jaybird puzzler, John. 

I loved
"Hearing where melodies live in the scale is really where the rubber meets the road in terms of improvising, too"

Thanks again,
Ned

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1824 on: March 15, 2018, 05:39:50 PM »
Thanks very much for the good words, Old Man Ned.  I'm glad that made sense for you.
All best,
Johnm

Offline Gumbo

  • Member
  • Posts: 870
  • So Papa climbed up on top of the house
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1825 on: March 16, 2018, 04:45:33 PM »
Thanks Johnm, for the puzzle and the breakdown. I shall endeavour to read that through again at least once a week for the foreseeable future. It's heartening to see how close I got without much familiarity with alt tunings.. The three top strings are right and I think I was playing something close to the bass line an octave up?  I even wondered about retuning to Open D, but didn't for lack of time.
I shall persevere!

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1826 on: March 17, 2018, 04:27:22 PM »
Hi Gumbo,
I'm glad the explanation resonated.  I think the encouraging thing about the process, apart from the fact that it really works, is that it is a learned and learnable skill, not some sort of gift that you're either born with or can never have.  It amounts to cataloguing the aural properties of the different playing positions and tunings, based on how they are voiced and what is plausibly reachable in them.  Some positions and tunings are easier to identify than others, but they are all potentially identifiable on the basis of what people play in them and the sounds that result from that.  At this point this thread has close to 300 songs in it, so if you'd like practice in developing these skills of identification, you could just start at the beginning of the thread and work your way through the songs.
All best,
Johnm

Offline Gumbo

  • Member
  • Posts: 870
  • So Papa climbed up on top of the house
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1827 on: March 19, 2018, 10:56:26 AM »
Thanks John, I'll do that. And I wish you all the best with the next 300 ;)

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1828 on: March 20, 2018, 10:55:13 AM »
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is from Little Hat Jones, and it is his "You Don't Mean Me No Good", recorded by Morris Craig in Texas in 1964.  Here is "You Don't Mean Me No Good":




The questions on "You Don't Mean Me No Good" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Little Hat Jones use to play the song?
   * Where is Little Hat Jones fretting what he plays over the first four bars of the form?
   * Where does Little Hat Jones fret the bass run he plays in the 7th and 11th bars of the form?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please do not post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, March 23.  I hope you enjoy "You Don't Mean Me No Good", and thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 09:19:17 AM by Johnm »

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1829 on: March 24, 2018, 11:34:24 AM »
Hi all,
Any takers for the puzzler on Little Hat Jones' "You Don't Mean Me No Good"?  Come one, come all--answer just one question or all three!
All best,
Johnm

 


SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal