WeenieCampbell.com
The Unwound Third => Gitfiddles, Harps, Washboards & Kazoos => Topic started by: dabluz on November 28, 2005, 10:01:08 PM
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hi guys , looking for some input. i am contemplating building a quasi replica of 1931 000 which was 12 fret slot head prior to advanced x bracing. i've researched enough to figure out body length and depth and upper and lower bout width. actually i'm going to stretch body length to that of a 00-21 or 21 1/8". my question, or should i say my request for your thoughts, revolves around scale length. if i were going to copy a more modern martin rendition of this vintage guitar i would use 25.4 scale, however i'm leaning towards 24.625 scale length as it should sound sweeter. 24.5 was a pretty popular length on a lot pre war parlors, not that a 000 would be considered a parlor. my goal is a sweet sounding 12 fret for finger style blues. planning on using mahogany back and sides with scallop braced red cedar top. i built a reverse engineered model 1915 lyon and healy/washburn. came out great and is exceptional for open d , want something with a little more range. what are your thoughts? neil, if your listening please comment. thanks in advance for your thoughts everyone.
ps attached is photo of model 1915 washburn re make
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That's a little sweetheart. Nice job. We're going to have to get together sometime soon.
I think you have to look at where the bridge will fall. If you are going to opt for the longer body, you may find that the short scale will draw the bridge up towards the waist a bit. I guess it would only make about a half inch difference (i.e. if the twelfth fret is at the top of the face then the saddle will be half the scale length down the face) but you may find that it makes a difference, both visually and aurally. I've always thought that what sets a 12 fret apart is that the bridge is pretty close to the middle of the lower bout, or half way from the sound hole to the end pin. Looking at the L & H replica, the lower edge of the bridge seems to be just about half way, right where it should be. If you're set on a short scale, you might reconsider the body plan.
All for now.
John C
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...nice little guitar you built there, wish I had those skills! ...I've been working on basic repair type things, but constructing an entire guitar .. whew!
I just want to chime in on a few of your points (I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, so bear with me):
Ok, you want to build a guitar to 29-30 000 Martin specs (you didn't say Martin specifically, but that's what I surmise) but may make some changes to those specs (quasi 000)
You want to stretch the body length to that of 00-21, or 21 1/8"
Mike Longworth's Martin book reports 00 body length at 19 5/8 & 000 at 20 7/16 (wood and appointments have no bearing on size for Martins), so my question is did you mean to stretch the 000 to 21 1/8th? I didn't get the 'stretch to 00-21' length comment. Not being picky, just want to understand where you're coming from research-wise.
Scale lenght: the vintage 0, 00 and 000 were all 24.9 (according to Longworth, although he notes that some 000's were produced with the D version scale length of 25.4) ... I'm with waxwing on the bridge issue involved here; you may want to draw out, either to scale or actual size, what your various combinations of scale length, body length and so on, will look like on paper, just to be sure of bridge placement relative to soundhole/bottom of guitar; before you actually build it ... aesthetics and sound both come into play here
I'm curious about your choice of red cedar for top; that will have a real bearing of the tonal qualities of this proposed guitar; considering that you're the builder, why not hunt up some red spruce for the top? That's what aided the wonderful tone of the early guitars we try to emulate. Just a thought, maybe you prefer the tone cedar produces.
Here's my final comment... for a number of years I believed that a vintage 29-30 12 fret, slot head 000 Martin would be my holy grail guitar ... turns out I finally found a great one, lived with it and played it for 3 or 4 years, but realized it just wasn't for me ... the sound and fingerboard just didn't fit my style of playing (country blues and ragtime stuff) My main dislike (it sounds really dumb to gripe about it) was the sound...it was too powerful, rich, boomy, whatever you want to call it, but it was like playing an amplified guitar almost, and just didn't work for my type of music. It was tone to die for, but was wasted on my playing. Second, the fingerboard was just too wide, and I have rather large hands (heck, I'm 6'5") but I couldn't get those double bass strings covered w/ one finger, which in engrained in my playing ... so I sold it
Anyway, good luck with your project, sounds like lots of fun, hey, as long as you're doing all that work, why not make two, one of each scale length ;)
... I'd be curious to know how/where you learned your guitar building skills, too
Regards, Tom
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well here it is. we're done or should i say to a point of being playable. it sounds terrific. the cedar really booms yet smooth blend. i cannot take very much credit. my friend did the real building, i just buy all the stuff and have the crazy ideas and do some of the simple things. i am probably a real annoyance, but ithink it came out well. i have some specs i will upload to photobucket. it's a forward braced 12 fret 000. cedar top with honduras mohogany sides and back. done somewhat plain with regards to inlay, binding and purfling but i thinks it looks like it should in that the inspiration was a pre war look and sound.
(https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff142%2Fdalegarren%2Ftripple%2520o%2FDSC02057.jpg&hash=1c7b529c1e5b056e755bd74cca7ef90547b913d8)
(https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff142%2Fdalegarren%2Ftripple%2520o%2FDSC02058.jpg&hash=da146734a1cb6d4a68e2b4eedcdded57f6b74d94)
(https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff142%2Fdalegarren%2Ftripple%2520o%2FDSC02062.jpg&hash=80543ddedd251c856ae3eacee7d07a89e02bb663)
(https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff142%2Fdalegarren%2Ftripple%2520o%2FDSC02061.jpg&hash=113d36a6d4adb02aa1ea760d2892cadc31f458ab)
and here is what it sounds like, forgive my horrible playing skills, would probably sound better in the hands of a good player. also poor recording quality. it sounds so good in person.
http://www.soundclick.com/pappad (http://www.soundclick.com/pappad)
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Ho, boy:
Geez, nice looking job. I love the cross grain in the back.
If this is "somewhat plain", whats a fancy one look like?
One for me next, please!!
Very f*****g nice guitar!
What's the headstock veneer?
Sounds great too. What guage strings?
Slack, are you watching.....
Congratulations,
Alex
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I'll say it booms! Sounds like a cavernous thing, not a sweet little 000 12-fret. And it is just beauty (certainly wouldn't call it plain...) - congrats!
tom
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Looks and sounds terrific. Love the green purfling!
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thank you for the kind compliments. the headstock overlay is flame maple as it the bindings. the maple just seemed to really complement the mahogany. the strings are custom lights. the top is scallop braced and so i'm going slowly with string guages to see how it does. if i put mediums on this thing it might break your arm while your playing it.
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Great job, dabluz. Hubba hubba. Love that headstock. Sounds great too.
Congratulations!
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Unkie Bud:
Hubba, hubba?
We're going to have to talk....
alex
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...very sweet guitar, and tastefully done ... yes, the green is a great choice w/ the maple headstock, and, like others, I noticed how boomy the bass is, doesn't sound like a ladder braced guitar ... wow :o
So what scale length did you use? I know there was some discussion on the bridge placement, too ... looks to be placed where a 14 fret would be, as opposed to the 12 fret Stellas and Gibson L-00's ... I'll check out your spec's, thanks for the photos!
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it's not ladder braced, its a quasi x braced. give me a dy or so and i'll post the bracing photo and more specs.
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Sweet little guitar...sounds so nice too...Great Job!!!
look fwd to seeing the specs.
Blue
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Gorgeous guitar! What strikes me is the purfling! Where'd you find it? Gurian? That's the same purfling pattern that Oscar Schmidt used on their top-of-the-line Stella and Sovereign guitars and mandolins! Exceptionally cool!
Neil Harpe
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neil, great to hear from you, your correct and that is why i chose it. LMI had some, it's referred to as "vintage purfling", i think they even mention oscar schmidt, takes a little hunting sometimes to keep the theme of the guitar going. i'm not sure if they have anymore. i was lucky. i really appreciate your comments, comming from you they are highly prized.
could i ask you a question? what do you think of my concept of stylizing a forward braced 12 fret tripple ooo even if the upper bout is more similar to a 00-21 of that era? notice i did not say martin and i did say stylizing.
it seems to be a pretty good guitar and i may build a couple more.
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"...what do you think of my concept of stylizing a forward braced 12 fret triple ooo even if the upper bout is more similar to a 00-21 of that era? notice i did not say martin and i did say stylizing."
I really like the way it looks a lot! The shape (and proportions) reminds me of some guitars that Regal made in the 1920s - 1930s era. Indeed, very handsome and in keeping with the guitar aesthetics from that era. I'll betcha it sounds marvelous, too.
Forgive my ignorance but...what's LMI?
Neil
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Forgive my ignorance but...what's LMI?
Luthiers Mercantile International -- First rate luthiers supply place: http://lmii.com