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You know, old folks say, it's a long lane don't have no end and a bad wind don't never change. But one day, back when Hoover was president, I was driving my cart down Beale Street, and I seen a rat, sitting on top of a garbage can, eating a onion, crying - Furry Lewis, quoted in Stanley Booth's Rhythm Oil

Author Topic: Adventures in F position  (Read 28104 times)

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Offline waxwing

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2006, 01:05:48 PM »
I'm heading to John's afternoon class and will ask him. I don't think he gets down here to log in during Port Townsend.

But Frank's got a dang good ear, so your question has probably been answered, eh?

All for now,
John C.
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
George Bernard Shaw

“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.”
Joseph Heller, Catch-22

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Offline Rivers

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2006, 07:31:37 PM »
Way Down Yonder In New Orleans arrangements tend to resolve to F. Sorry thats trad I know but it is really old and interesting.

Offline Johnm

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2006, 10:42:53 PM »
Hi all,
Yes, Luke Jordan's "Traveling Coon" is in F, for sure.
All best,
Johnm

Offline slidnslim

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2006, 06:23:48 AM »
 >:D not related at all but has anybody else tried tuning down to
 F spanish with heavy strings(16-59)
 I'm really liking that (Catfish Keith's) sound!

 Kenny,

Offline Johnm

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2006, 04:49:01 PM »
Hi all,
While at Port Townsend I picked up a CD, "Kansas City Blues", Document DOCD-5152, with the complete recorded works of Lottie Beamon-Kimbrough, Winston Holmes, Charlie Turner and Sylvester Kimbrough.  On two of Lottie Beamon's earliest tracks, (from 1924!) "Honey Blues" (take 1) and "Red River Blues (take 1) she is accompanied by the Pruitt twins, Miles and Milas, and on both of the tracks, at least one of the twins is backing her out of F position in standard tuning.  Neither of the twins is high-tuned on either of the tracks.

On "Honey Blues" it appears that Miles was playing guitar; Milas is listed as playing banjo, though it really sounds like banjo-mandolin.  If there are any of you out there fortunate enough to play in mandolin/guitar duos, this song would be a great pick.  Miles's bass runs are really gymnastic, easily rivaling any done by Leadbelly and Peg Leg Howell in F, and the twins do a spiffy job of bouncing back and forth between straight time and double time.  The harmonization is a neat mix of sophistication and personalized touches, with the brothers at one point utilizing the same descending bass-line and almost the same harmonization as the one employed by Papa Charlie Jackson on "Gay Cattin'", discussed on the "Harmony and Hearing Chord Changes" thread.

On "Red River Blues" the twins are playing duo guitars in a set-up I have never seen or heard employed before:  one of them (Miles?) is playing out of F position in standard tuning and the other is capoed or tuned one fret higher and playing out of the E position in standard tuning.  The sound is striking and makes it crystal clear what different possibilities the two positions make available to the player of Country Blues.  The only downside to the performance is that whichever twin is playing out of F has an egregiously out of tune D string--ouch!  Apart from that, the performance is really interesting and suggests all kinds of other under-utilized possibilities for Country Blues duet playing.  There is still so much stuff out there. . . .
All best,
Johnm     
« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 10:35:37 AM by Johnm »

Offline tenderfoot84

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2006, 12:01:29 PM »
hi peeps,
is bob campbell's "dice's blues" in f by any chance? i heard it here

http://prewarblues.org/2005/12/going-to-detroit/

it's an excellent song but i'm not really getting to grips with it on the guitar. and i have almost no experience in the key of f. just a little bad experience with charley patton's "shake it and break it"
Cheerybye,
David C

Offline Johnm

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2006, 05:23:07 PM »
Hi David C.,
I went and listened to "Dice Blues", and it is played out of E position in standard tuning, tuned a whole step low so it sounds in D.  It's a really nice song.  I never heard of Bob Campbell before.
Oh, and Cheapfoot, yes, F works out great for songs with active bass runs like Leadbelly's "Roberta" or Luke Jordan's "Travelin' Coon".  The runs sit so beautifully, they are right under your hand.
All best,
Johnm

Offline tenderfoot84

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2006, 04:04:26 AM »
thanks john, thanks for the insights. i'll get back to work on dice's blues.

here's an interesting thing that i found on the site:

A version of "Railroad Bill" that evidently influenced a lot of people in the New York Folk Music scene was recorded by the great Old Time player Hobart Smith in 1946.  Like just about everything Smith recorded at that time of his life, this rendition of "Railroad Bill" was played really fast, really hard and really strong.  This version is available on the Rounder CD "Hobart Smith--Blue Ridge Legacy", Rounder CD 11661-1799-2, and includes many of the verses that are most commonly heard sung to the song.  Two other versions of the song by Smith (one played on banjo) are included on the recently released Smithsonian Folkways CD, "Hobart Smith--In Sacred Trust", SFW CD 40141.  The notes to this CD inform us that Smith learned the song from Bob Campbell, an albino African-American from Saltville, Virginia's Smoky Row, of whom Smith recalled,
   "His eyes would just dance in his head when he played that "Railroad Bill".  And of all my traveling since, of all the colored people I've heard play it, of all the men I ever heard play it, I've never heard a man could beat Bob Campbell playing "Railroad Bill".  Ah, he was wonderful.  Ain't no question about that."

i'd love to be able to kid myself that this is the same bob campbell, but i'm guessing it's as popular a name in the states as it is over here. food for thought non-the-less.
Cheerybye,
David C

Offline frankie

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2006, 11:37:57 AM »
I'm talking about Leadbelly's 1935 columbia version.

It can get a little confusing talking about Lead Belly for a couple of reasons:

1) He generally tuned down to about B.  For example, taking B as his pitch for the 6th and 1st course, anything that you hear from him that has an absolute pitch of D was played on LB's guitar out of G position.  It's all relative - generally, when Johnm talks about F position, it has nothing to do with pitch, just the chord shapes that were used to play the song.  It's a very guitar-oriented way of describing the music.

2) Lead Belly changed his accompaniments over time.  In his early LoC sessions, he played Midnight Special in F, but on subsequent recordings, he seemed to favor D.  Edited to add:  plus, he recorded a number of his tunes multiple times, making confusion about a particular song pretty likely - I know I've heard LoC version of Roberta, but not sure I've heard any recording of it that was made commercially.

If you're hearing a particular version of a LB tune and it's absolute pitch is at B, that could mean a couple of things:

1)  He's tuned to B and playing out of E position
2)  He's tuned to Bflat and playing out of F position

Either way, it's not too hard to tell once you hear the recording in question - trying to guess in the abstract is usually pretty pointless.  In any event, playing out of B position is pretty rare in country blues (even more rare than playing in F, Bflat or Eflat).  The only guy I can think of that did it regularly was Brownie McGhee.

Offline Johnm

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2006, 07:08:20 PM »
Hi all,
I just found two more pieces played out of F by Virgil Childers on the "Blind Boy Fuller, Volume 2" JSP set.  They are "Travelin' Man", which, of course, Luke Jordan recorded as "Travelin' Coon", also out of F, and "Preacher and The Bear".  Childers, who recorded these pretty late, in 1938, plays both of these tunes with a swingy, four-to-the-bar strumming style that sounds like it very well may have been flat-picked.  His final verse for "Travelin' Man" is very funny, and I have never heard anyone else do it. 
Childers's four other tunes on the set are tantalizing, for they show a lot of variety.  "Dago Blues" is played out of A in standard tuning, with a host of original moves and sophisticated sounds.  "Red River Blues" is played in E, standard tuning, likewise with some great personal touches.  "Who's That Knockin' At My Door" and "Somebody Stole My Jane" are both played out of C position in standard tuning and abound in new ways of getting around in that posisition.  Childers's six tunes have a sort of "tip of the iceberg" quality; he plays so expertly in every position he tries that it makes you feel he probably had a lot of great music in him that he never had the opportunity to record.  I suppose we are lucky that anything at all survived of him and his music.
All best,
Johnm

Offline Dr. G

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2006, 05:53:18 AM »
FWIW the Beale Street Sheiks' "It's A Good Thing" [see thread on lyrics on "The Collective Ear"] seems to be in F -- at least on Take 1. (Take 2 is higher and faster.)

But I have wondered: (1) did the recording speeds get screwed up somehow?, and (2) if really in F, is
Take 1 actualy played in a not-quite-up-to-pitch Spanish?

Any thoughts on the guitar accomp to "It's A Good Thing" much appreciated!

Dr. G

Offline frankie

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2006, 05:57:47 AM »
Any thoughts on the guitar accomp to "It's A Good Thing" much appreciated!

Stokes:  capo 3, play D
Sane:  tune a whole step low, play G

Offline Richard

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2006, 09:43:12 AM »
I'm sure the vaguaries of 78 machinery account for a number of wrong keys.. 
(That's enough of that. Ed)

Offline Dr. G

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2006, 06:15:30 AM »
frankie -- If you are the musical wunderkind referenced in an earlier post on this thread:

"But Frank's got a dang good ear, so your question has probably been answered, eh?"

then your reputation precedes you...but I am agape that you not only can discern two guitars in this accomp (I know they're there -- I just can't HEAR 'em!), but also can tell that one is capoed at the third fret!!! Thanks!

richard -- Those @#%##@@ "vagaries" get me every time!

Dr. G

Offline frankie

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Re: Blues in F
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2006, 04:25:42 PM »
but also can tell that one is capoed at the third fret

I can't actually hear what fret the second guitar is capo'd to - just that there's a flatpicked guitar being played in G position and a fingerpicked guitar playing in D.  They both (happily) are playing in the same absolute key (about F), so the guy playing in D has to be capo'd somewhere.  if he's close to concert pitch, it'd be the 3rd fret, if a half step lower, then the fourth fret.  Doesn't matter so much, just so the key between the two instruments stays the same (that way everybody's happy).  Likewise, the flatpicker is clearly playing out of G, so if he's pitched lower than G, he must be tuned down.

Additionally, going from memory here - I think there's a picture of Stokes and Sane where, in the picture, Stokes has a capo on the third fret and is fingering a G chord.  Sane has no capo and is fingering a C chord.  If Sane was tuned a whole step low and Stokes was tuned to concert pitch, they'd both sound the same chord:  B-flat.

String instruments are cool that way.

 


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