Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[EddieD]

This thread is one of my favorite to read. I really miss participating. I hope life slows down a bit soon!!

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is "You Ain't The Last Man", on which Johnny St. Cyr  accompanied Elzadie Robinson.  Here is their performance:



INTRO

You say you are leaving, sweet man, good-bye
I won't shed a tear, I won't even sigh
You ain't the last man that the good Lord made

I'm sick and tired of your line of jive
And there's other good men, and they are still alive
You ain't the last man that the good Lord made

There was a time, honey, you could set me wild
But now your loving seems so tame and mild
You ain't the last man that the good Lord made

You had your chance, you couldn't make the grade
Your hateful ways made my love fade
'Cause you ain't the last man that the good Lord made

The questions on "You Ain't The Last Man" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Johnny St. Cyr use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the fill he plays from :18--:22, and how would you describe what is happening chordally there?
   * Where does he fret the three ascending chords from :42--:45, and how would you name the chords?

The second puzzler is Lesley Riddle's version of "Step By Step", for which he is joined by Mike Seeger on autoharp.  Here is their performance:



AUTOHARP INTRO

REFRAIN: Step by step, we're going up to Zion
Step by step, thank God I'm on my way
Step by step, we're going to see King Jesus
Step by step, we're going home someday

If you can, cannot sing like angels
If you can, cannot preach like Paul
You can tell, tell the love of Jesus
You can say, say he died for all

REFRAIN: Step by step, we're going up to Zion
Step by step, on, we on our way
Step by step, we're going to see King Jesus
Step by step, we're going home someday

AUTOHARP SOLO

If you can, cannot give your thousand
You can always give the widow's mite
For the least, least you do for Jesus
Will be pre-, precious in His sight

REFRAIN: Step by step, we're going up to Zion
Step by step, thank God I'm on my way
Step by step, we're going to see King Jesus
Step by step, we're going home someday

AUTOHARP SOLO

Edited 4/8 to pick up correction from frankie

The question on "Step By Step" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lesley Riddle use to play "Step By Step"?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, May 4.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

[One-Eyed Ross]

This thread is one of my favorite to read. I really miss participating. I hope life slows down a bit soon!!

Let me know how that goes.  Play off for Boy's Soccer right now, and a new semi-pro league is starting up and needing a "nouncer dude"....  Hey, it keeps me off the streets.

[Lastfirstface]

I don't have enough time to really sit down with these two, but my impressions are St Cyr playing in F position tuned a little low and Riddle playing in E position tuned about a whole step down.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Any other takers for the Johnny St. Cyr and Lesley Riddle puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm

[Old Man Ned]

I'm struggling with the Johnny St Cyr, but F works for me too. For the fill he plays from :18--:22 I'm hearing G F# F descending on the first string? played around an F13 shape chord? The same phrase is repeated.  I'm afraid this is as far as I've got so far, will hopefully get a bit more time to puzzle over this.  I do love Johnny St Cyr guitar playing though.  Love his version of Original Jelly Roll Blues.

[Prof Scratchy]

I'm a bit at sea with these. I'm going to risk E for Johnny and D for Lesley. Both too obvious to be remotely right!


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[EddieD]

Im going to try and take a stab at these tonight. I'm not off work until 10:00pm Atlantic time but I think I can get a little while to try this one!

[Pan]

Hi all,

My guestimations:

I'll agree with Professor Scratchy about the keys and positions, E, and D standard.

* Where did he fret the fill he plays from :18--:22, and how would you describe what is happening chordally there?

I think he's playing an E9 chord, walking the top 9th note down chromatically to the root of the chord (F# - F - E, or 9 - b9 - root). 
I believe he plays an E9 chord as following X-2-X-1-3-2, with his 2nd finger on th 5th string, 1st finger on th 3rd string, little finger on the 2nd string, and 3rd finger on the 1st string.
Then I believe he's removing his 3rd finger from the top string, and flattening his 1st finger to barre both the 3rd and 1st strings, leaving the little finger in place on the 2nd string, and playing only the top three strings; X-(2)-X-1-3-1. Next I believe his lifting his barre 1st finger from the top 1st finger, while still holding the finger's tip in place on the 3rd string, and still holding his little finger on the 2nd string, again playing only the top three strings; X-(2)-X-1-3-0.

When he repeats the chords, I think he might change his bass note from the 2nd fret of the 5th string to the 2nd fret of the 4th string, before repeating the passage.

It's a little tricky to play, and a very clever move. You could play the upper part of the chord upper in the neck (X-X-6-7-9-X), walking down the top note, but that would make accessing the brief bass notes very difficult.

* Where does he fret the three ascending chords from :42--:45, and how would you name the chords?

Sounds to me like he's going up from X-X-X-1-0-0, to X-X-X-1-3-1, to X-X-X-2-4-2?
I would call the 1st chord the I or tonic, E, and the last one the V or dominant B7. But how to call the chord in between? You could see it as a chromatic chord moving up a half step (Bb7 to B7), but since there is no root Bb, it doesn't really sound like that to me.
I would be inclined to think that the 2nd chord is a partial diminished chord, having the same root as the V chord, and resolving to it (Bdim7 to B7), even if again, no root is played. But maybe that's just how I hear things?

As I said, I think I'll agree with the Professor on Lesley Riddle playing "Step By Step" in D standard. I think I'm hearing the familiar open chord voicings of D, G, and A, and the D chord having a bass alternated with the open 4th string and 2nd fret on the 6th string.

Very interesting song choices again, I love Johnny St. Cyr's nifty playing. Looking forward for the verdict, as always!

Cheers

Pan

[Johnm]

Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who had intended to respond to the Johnny St Cyr and Lesley Riddle puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.
For Elzadie Robinson and Johnny St Cyr's performance of "You Ain't The Last Man":
   * Johnny St Cyr's playing position was F in standard tuning, as Lastfirstface and Old Man Ned had it--well done!  A couple of clues that would help identify the playing position as F in standard tuning rather than E in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy and Pan had it:  (1) The chunky "closed" sound of Johnny St Cyr's chordal voicings.  With the exception of the open first string in his V7 chord, C7, he is not hitting open strings at all in his chords.  (2) At around :26-27, Johnny St Cyr plays a closed IV6 chord in a voicing that has ended being a favorite of players working in F position, a Bb6 voiced
X-1-3-3-3-3, probably with the index fretting the first fret of the fifth string and the third or ring finger barring the first four strings at the third fret.  Papa Charlie Jackson used this voicing a lot when playing in F or Bb positions.  (3) From 1:08-1:11, Johnny St Cyr plays an ascending/descending bass run that goes up R-3-5-R then down, 7 6, then up, b7 to 7.  In F, this run is right under the hand going from the first fret of the sixth string to the open fifth string, the third fret of the fifth string to the third fret of the fourth string, down to the second fret of the fourth string and the open fourth string, then walking up to the first and second frets of the fourth string.  In E position, the run is notably more awkward, going from the open sixth string to the fourth fret of the sixth string, the second fret of the fifth string and the second fret of the fourth string, down to the first fret of the fourth string and the fourth fret of the fifth string, then up to the open fourth string, ending on the first fret of the fourth string.  Any piece which has a lot of active bass runs that include the 3 and 6 notes of the scale is much more likely to be played out of F position than E position because of how the positions sit on the three lowest-pitched strings.  Luke Jordan's "Travelling Coon" and Leadbelly's "Roberta" are good examples of the advantages F position gives a player for doing bass runs.
   * For the passage from :18--:22, Johnny St Cyr goes from a I9 chord to a I7b9 chord to a I7 chord, with the 9-b9-1 movement on the first string, exactly where Old Man Ned put it--well done!  Pan also had this sussed out correctly, though a fret lower, out of the E position.  Johnny St Cyr hits the third fret of the fifth string leading into the phrase, and very lightly hits the third fret of the fourth string later in the phrase, but in the main is playing the phrase on the first thee strings, most likely fretting the second fret of the third string with his index finger, the fourth fret of the second string with his little finger, the third fret of the first string with his third finger, and flattening with his index to get the second fret of the first string, smearing it downward to get the first fret of the first string, and replacing it at the second fret of the third string with his second finger when he plays the F7 chord.
   * The passage from :43-:45 was fretted just as Pan had it, but one fret higher, going from 2-1-1 on the first three strings, to 2-4-2, then resolving to 3-5-3.  I think Pan's analysis of the chords was spot on, too, well done, Pan!  I chord to a partial #Idim7 to a rootless V7 chord voiced bVII-III-V, ascending from the third string.

Johnny St Cyr seems to be a musician worth seeking out and studying, in everything he did.  He really was an ace player.

For Lesley Riddle's "Step By Step":
   * His playing position was D position in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy and Pan had it--well done!  He's voicing the third of his I chord on the first string, which could suggest either D or C position, but everything happening in the bass points to D position rather than C position.

Judging by Lesley Riddle's playing on his rediscovery album and by Maybelle Carter's playing on her numerous recordings, I believe that the influence of his playing on hers has been over-stated by some music historians.  There are a couple of pieces Maybelle played where the influence seems pretty clear, but in the bulk of her playing it seems like her musical style and mode of expression was formed independent of Lesley Riddle's influence.

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzlers, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.

All best,
Johnm     

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I was trying to transcribe the lyrics to Lesley Riddle's "Step By Step", and am stuck on the bent bracketed passage in the last verse.  I'd very much appreciate some help with it.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm

[frankie]

I think you have it right as "widow's might" John. While it's not a phrase I'm personally familiar with, it does seem to show up in the speech of people of faith and seems to mean "give all you can despite your shortcomings."

[frankie]

Duh. It's widow's MITE - a coin....  specifically two coins (mites).

[Johnm]

Thanks, Frank!  That homonym solution occurred to me just a little while ago too.  I will make the change.
All best,
Johnm

[Pan]

Thanks for the analysis, John!  Much appreciated, as always.

I hadn't fully realized what an ace guitar player Johnny St. Cyr was, as I'd always considered him more of a jazz ensemble banjo player.

Cheers

Pan