Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[papa john pio]

I'll give a try on "My Laona Blues". Jb Lenoir's "I want to go" is beautifull, as  "Was That The Human Thing to Do?",  and I would give a try maybe later.
Teddy Darby plays in the E positions, maybe with a capo on the 1st fret, and I think the E positions are the Darby's most used. On the piano is  Roosevelt Sykes, maybe, and they seem out of tune but still the sound is strangely haunting. That make me wonder if that is intentonal or not.
in the first bar I guess he plays a E7 chord on the first 3 strings, 4th, 3rd, 4th fret respectively, while in the second bar he plays a sort of Em (?) on the first 3 strings, 4th, 5th, 6th fret. I always liked this song, in special way the singing and the riff in E closing the verses, where it's important to me to understand which bass notes he picks, to obtain the right sound. I don't know why is called "My Laona Blues". Maybe Laona, WI? A female forename? Another random dropped title, like " Bracey's "Saturday Blues"? I didn't find anything about.

[Prof Scratchy]

JB Lenoir is playing in E, capoed at the third fret to sound in G. His riff (assuming the capo represents the zero fret) is played on the second and third strings, starting at the 12th and 13th frets respectively, then dropping that position two frets 10 and 11 before returning to 12 and 13

Not sure about the Bill Williams one but will go with Old Man Ned. The signature lick is easy to do in dropped D, though I think I only hear the low D note at the very end. I was wondering about F for this one, but I?m not proficient enough in F to try to work it out!

I agree with papa john on My  Laona blues: E capoed at the second fret. He starts the verses with the E7 shape as papa john describes. I think he?s just moving that shape down to the D7 on the first and second frets the second pass around, rather than to the Eb7. My Laona? Not a clue!

[papa john pio]

Well, after repeated listening, i guess Darby in the second bar, go down with the 2nd string to the 2nd fret coupled withe 1st string at 5th fret and, I can hear, the A bass note. changing from the E bass note, and maybe the 3rd string played free. Is it a sort of A chord?
The IV position as the V are not so difficult to capture, but the E riff is hard to understand correctly.
By the way, I think J.B. Lenoir's is though, molstly because of the fast groove. I think, as prof Scratchy pointed, that is played in E.

[Old Man Ned]

Had time to listen again to these today and had a rethink.  For JB Lenior, I agree E position, up at the 3rd fret.  I originally thought G standard and playing out of the E shape chord at the 3rd fret but where he hits the repetitive G bass note I was thinking he was doing that alternating between the 6th & 5th string.  This made me think Open G ie catching the G bass notes at the 5th fret, 6th str & open 5th string.  But, if he was doing that, I guess I'd hear more of a drone sound.  I'm also hearing bits now ie 30:32 which would be a pain to play in Open G.  So, as putting a capo at the 3rd fret would be easier, I've come around to what Prof Scratchy and Papa John Pio suggest.

I was wondering about F for this one, but I'’m not proficient enough in F to try to work it out!

I was thinking F as well.  It was just the ending, where I'm hearing the low D in the bass that pushes me towards Dropped D.  Here's the weird thing, when I listen to this tune again, at the start I'm thinking F and at the end I'm thinking D

Yeah, completely screwed up the Ted Darby tune, it's not A standard!

Is it ok to change my mind and have another go?  I'll need to keep working at the Bill Williams tune, who I've never heard before but just grows on me with each listen.

[Johnm]

Sure, Old Man Ned, you can change your mind, and there's no particular hurry.  Any takers for these puzzlers in addition to Old Man Ned, papa john pio  and Prof Scratchy?
All best,
Johnm

[blueshome]

J.B.Lenoir E standard or EAEGBE
Bill Williams, not sure
Teddy Darby I thought A at first but it seems to work out of E on the guitar.

[Lastfirstface]

JB Lenoir- E position, capo 3, sounding at G. Riff is played with at 10th fret on first string and 12th fret on second and third string, then slid down a whole step.

Bill Williams- F position tuned low

Teddy Darby - E standard? Not sure about the change in the first two bars or where "Laona" came from

[frankie]

The question for "Was That The Human Thing to Do?" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Bill Williams use to play the song?

I was wondering about F for this one, but I'?m not proficient enough in F to try to work it out!

I was thinking F as well.  It was just the ending, where I'm hearing the low D in the bass that pushes me towards Dropped D.  Here's the weird thing, when I listen to this tune again, at the start I'm thinking F and at the end I'm thinking D

When you say D, do you mean the pitch sounded? If so, consider THIS:

the pitch at which a rendition sounds has virtually no bearing on the position/tuning that was used to play a piece on the guitar

Bill Williams is playing in F position on a guitar tuned about 3 half steps low.

If you evaluate the song on the basis of pitch, you'll come away thinking about "D".

If you evaluate the song on the basis of relative note choices, you'll come away thinking about "F".

This is why the pitch of a particular performance is the LEAST persuasive piece of evidence you can use to evaluate how the song is being played.

[papa john pio]

I changed my mind too. The II bar of "My Laona Blues" now sound to me like a full AM7 (maybe): 4th,3rd,2nd string on the 2nd fret and 1st string on the 4th fret, with the A bass note on the 5th string played in unison. Indeed a strange Quick Change. Sometimes the piano mess it up a bit, but it's more difficult than expected, by my poor standard.   By the way, Bill Williams is pretty tough; If frankie says is in F I will confidently stick on it, I have no idea.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who wished to respond to the JB Lenoir, Bill Williams and Teddy Darby puzzlers has done so by now, so I will post the answers.

For J B Lenoir's "I Want To Go":
   * His playing position was E in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy, papa john pio, Lastfirstface, Old Man Ned and blueshome had it.  Well done!  It was E position in standard tuning rather than EAEGBE tuning for reasons I'll get into in the next answer.
   * J B Lenoir fretted the lick he plays from :15--:19 precisely where Prof Scratchy placed it, at the thirteenth fret of the third string and the twelfth fret of the second string, moving down to the eleventh fret of the third string and the tenth fret of the second string respectively (relative to capo placement)--well done, Prof!  What really makes this lick sing is that against that little two note figure moving down and back up the neck, J B Lenoir keeps the open first string droning, and the timbre of that open first string against the two strings fretted way up the neck has a beautiful exotic sound for which, incidentally, there is no pianistic equivalent.  Later on in the song when Lenoir plays this lick he also occasionally lightly brushes the open fourth string, and its pitch is that of the bVII of the key that he is playing in, so he is in standard tuning, in which the open fourth string is the bVII of the key of the open sixth string, rather than EAEGBE tuning, in which both the open sixth and open fourth strings are I notes when you play in the key of the open sixth string.  Jesse Thomas is another musician who played a lot of partially open voicings up the neck with either the first or the first and second strings open.

I missed hearing J. B. Lenoir altogether when he was alive, and hearing him in recent years has made me realize how much I did miss.  What a wonderful musician--a great singer and guitarist and an outstanding songwriter in the style.  Every song I've heard from the "Alabama Blues!" album that he did has excellent lyrics, memorable melodies and great instrumental hooks, and I believe he played acoustic guitar for the entire record.

For Bill Williams version of "Was That The Human Thing To Do?:
   * His playing position was F position in standard tuning, as Lastfirstface, Frank, Prof Scratchy, and Old Man Ned had it.  What are some factors that would assist in making this unusual identification?
   1) The opening melodic phrase consists of the following scale tones:  III III V V VI VI I I VII VII V VI.  Those notes lay out so beautifully for the left hand in F position in standard tuning, with the III notes at the second fret of the third string, the V notes at the first fret of the second string, the VI notes at the third fret of the second string, the I notes at the first fret of the first string, and the VII notes at the open first string.  Considering how notey that melodic phrase is, only two of the notes in it, the VI and the VII require playing notes that are not already in the F chord as it is normally fretted. 
   2) The progression of the song is III7--VI7--II7--V7 in its bridge, like "I Got Rhythm", and if you listen to those chord shapes, you can hear that the VI7 and V7 chords are both played out of a C7 shape.  Played in the F position, the VI7 and V7 chords would be D7 and C7, and they sure sit easily and naturally.
   3)  If you listen to Bill Williams' bass note choices in the course of his rendition, he hits a lot of III notes of the I chord in the bass.  In the F position, that III note would be A, and putting that open A string in the bass frees up his left hand and allows him to do a lot of free-handing in the treble, which is hugely helpful with such a notey melody.
   4) Also, F position has a distinctive "chunky" sound, due to it being a closed position with no open strings normally played in the I chord, so it doesn't have the kind of freely ringing sound that positions have that employ lots of open strings at the base of the neck.

For Teddy Darby's "My Laona":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, which I think is what everyone who posted an answer on the song ended up with.  Well done!
   * The way Teddy Darby changed what he played in the first two bars of each of his verses is just what papa john pio had in his last post, with regards to the chords Teddy Darby sounded.  Working out of a partial E7 position with his third finger fretting the fourth fret of the third string and his second finger fretting the third fret of the second string, he hit two pick-up notes, going from the open first string to the third fret of the second string on +4, preceding the downbeat of the first measure.  On the downbeat of the first measure he brushes the first three strings, adding his little finger at the fourth fret of the first string to the two notes he was already fretting on the second and third strings, ending up with a D7 shape moved up two frets.  At the end of the first bar, on + 4 +, he goes from the open first string to the third fret of the second string, followed by the second fret of the first string.  On the downbeat of the second bar, he brushes the fourth fret of the first string and the second fret of the second string, playing a partial A major seventh chord, just as papa john pio named it--very well heard, papa john!  The sound of this lick is completely arresting, and one of the neatest things about it is that it is achieved through such simple means in the left hand.  What a difference in sound on those first two strings between 3-4 and 2-4!  That A major seventh chord sounds really exotic.
   * The final question was kind of a joke question.  I don't have the vaguest idea as to why the song was called "My Laona Blues", since Laona is never mentioned in the course of the lyrics.  This one qualifies as a "Mystery Title", like "Saturday Blues", to which papa john pio alluded.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the songs and working out your answers.  I'll try to find some more puzzlers soon.  It's getting harder--we're up to almost 140 puzzlers!  Thanks to everyone who has engaged with these songs.  I've learned so much and heard so many great musicians I never heard before, just in the course of looking for songs to post here.

All best,
Johnm   

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for you.  The first is from "unknown", who was recorded at the Bellwood Prison in Atlanta.  Here is his song, "Hard Times, Hard Times":



Hard times, hard times, just about to drive me insane
Hard times, hard times, just about to drive me insane
I'm goin' to the freight yard, whoo Lord, and get me a railroad train

Seems like the police and the detectives just won't leave me alone
Seems like the police and the detectives just won't leave me alone
Seems like everything I do, ooo God, I do belong

I'm tired of stayin' in trouble, eatin' out of these county things
I'd've stayed in trouble, eatin' out of these county things
And working life, I play, whoo, every Georgia chain gang

Going to change my way of livin', and try to do right
I'm gonna change my way of livin' and try to do right
I can't stay here in Georgia and do it, because things down here is tight

SOLO

I've been stayin' in trouble, ever since I was sixteen years old
And gettin', gettin' in trouble, ever since I was sixteen years old
Well now, I'm gonna leave Georgia, whoo, and travel another road

 The questions on "Hard Times, Hard Times" are:
   * What playing position/tuning was used to play the song?
   * Unknown plays the same figure four times consecutively for his IV7 chord, from :12--:16.  Where did he fret what he played?
   * Where did unknown fret the walk-down he plays from :22--:24?
   * Where did unknown fret the V7 voicing he plays from :27--:28?
   * Where did unknown fret the walk-up he begins the solo with, starting at 1:36?

The second puzzler is similarly played by unknown, and it is "Georgia Chain Gang".  Here it is:



I was going down the road, not thinking about not one thing
Well, the next thing that I know, was in a Georgia chain gang

Said, they give me forty years, for robbin' a [bookin' Jew?]
They give me forty years, for robbin' a [bookin' Jew?]
And I said to myself, "I know this can't be true."

I'm gonna leave Georgia, if I have to ride the rods
I'm gonna leave Georgia, if I have to ride the rods
'Cause if I stay up in Georgia, be behind prison bars

When you get in prison, tell you what they will do
When you get in prison, tell you what they will do
They will shackle you down, and make a mule of you

SOLO

If I had a-listened to what my Mama said
If I had listened to what my Mama said
I would be at home, sleepin' in my Mama's bed

SOLO

The questions on "Georgia Chain Gang" are:
   * What playing position/tuning was used to play the song?
   * Where did unknown fret what he plays from :21--24?
   * Where did unknown fret the opening of his solo, from 1:19--1:20?

As always, please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers.  Please don't post any answers before Monday morning, December 21, at 8:00 AM your time.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm

[papa john pio]

They are pretty hard as usual. Fantastic guitarist, no doubt, but  it's hard to tell which tunings/position is using because of the of poor sound quality.  My only shot: Hard Times, Hard Times I think is played in open A tuning.
The IV7 Chord he use, I guess, is fretted 2nd and 3rd strings at the II fret and the 4th string swithcing from the I to II fret
From 22 to 24  I hear something like 2nd string on the III fret and 3rd and 5th string at the IV fret chord shape, moved unchanged down the neck.
The V7 chord I think is fretted 2nd string III fret, 3rd string on the II and maybe the 5th on the II.
The walk-up   starting at 1:36 begins with something like 1st, 2nd and 4th string at V fret, 3rd at the IV. Then this chord shape start from the III fret to the VI and V, but the last chord of the walk-up, at 1:42, is fretted 2nd string at the VI, 3rd at the IV and 4th at the V. Very interesting.
By the way I would like to wish all you guys merry Christmas and peace.
 

[Prof Scratchy]

The questions on "Hard Times, Hard Times" are:
   * What playing position/tuning was used to play the song? - A standard tuning
   * Unknown plays the same figure four times consecutively for his IV7 chord, from :12--:16.  Where did he fret what he played? - plays D7 chord x04535, walking up from third to fourth fret on fourth string
   * Where did unknown fret the walk-down he plays from :22--:24? - can't work this out!
   * Where did unknown fret the V7 voicing he plays from :27--:28? - 020132?? - Just guessing though, as I really can't replicate this sound.
   * Where did unknown fret the walk-up he begins the solo with, starting at 1:36? - x02222/ xx0000/ xx1111/ x02222

[Prof Scratchy]

The questions on "Georgia Chain Gang" are:
   * What playing position/tuning was used to play the song? - C standard
   * Where did unknown fret what he plays from :21--24? - just guessing again here: xx109100>xx878x>xx989x>xx109100
   * Where did unknown fret the opening of his solo, from 1:19--1:20? - 1/321>2/431>3/210>4/3 (guessing again)!

Very sophisticated and jazzy playing from 'Unknown' - are these the Oster recordings? If so, I remember an earlier discussion about these on WC where we surmised Oster might well have known the identities of the musicians he recorded. We also wondered whether he had indeed encountered the musicians in jail, or down his local jazz club!

[frankie]

Very sophisticated and jazzy playing from 'Unknown' - are these the Oster recordings? If so, I remember an earlier discussion about these on WC where we surmised Oster might well have known the identities of the musicians he recorded. We also wondered whether he had indeed encountered the musicians in jail, or down his local jazz club!

Agreed -  very sophisticated playing! These sound more like recordings that were made by Lawrence Gellert than Harry Oster. I have at least one LP of field recordings by Gellert where the accompanist sounds a lot like this one. These songs might even be on there!