Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[Slack]

John has some special insight into Sam Chatmon because he got to hang out with him!  for some period of time).  John, I'm sure folks would be interested in a Sam Chatmon story or two.  Didn't Sam have extra long fingers... where some of his fingering was almost impossible for us common folk?

[One-Eyed Ross]

So, here goes nothing.

Hollandale Blues - Standard tuning, played in A.  I'm hearing the chord at :28-:35 as an F shape at 5th fret.  With my ears, speakers and computer, that's about the extent of what I can say about this one.

She's My Baby - Standard tuning (half tone flat) G.  I'm not able to figure out what song he plays at the beginning - sounds familiar but....

[Lyndvs]

HOLLANDALE BLUES
A STANDARD
CHORD  554X35
Sounds to me he`s playing sixth string open then fifth open and raking on a chord like this xx4545.
SHE`S MY BABY
E standard(because the intro sounds like cigarette blues i initially thought it coud be vestapol like Bo but after a bit of noodling I plumped for E).
cow cow blues?(cigarette blues)

[David Kaatz]

Hollandale Blues
Is played out of Spanish tuning, key of A, probably capoed second fret because of the stretch involved to play the IV chord.
The passage from :28-:35 is fretted like this:
pickup on 1st fret of 4th string, to downbeat on 2nd fret of 4th string, then strum 5th fret, 1st, 2nd and 3rd strings. Hold the 5th fret position with the pinky while the 2nd fret 4th string is held with the index finger. Also play open 5th string.
The stretch from 1:37-1:49 is fretting the 4th fret of the 5th string and 5th fret of 1st string, 3rd fret 2nd string and open 3rd and 4th strings. Then play the 3rd fret of the 5th string and the same upper four strings. The rocking is only between the third of the chord (4th fret 5th string) and the flat 3rd at the 3rd fret.

On She's My Baby, Sam plays out of the E position, but sounding in F#, so probably capoed second fret. The melody is very familiar, but I can't pull the name out of my gray cells.

Dave

[Old Man Ned]

I too want to share the love for Sam Chatmon and also add what a fine beard he had.  The tunes? Well, Hollandale Blues, I'm going with A standard and fretting
5
3
5
4
5
5
around :28--:35
the positions he rocks back and forth between in the stretch from 1:37--1:49?..........I'm hearing open 6th and 5th strings around the start and he's up around the 5th fret on the top 4 strings.  I also, think I'm hearing some movement between the 5th and 6th frets of the 3rd string but can't be more specific than that at the moment.

For 'She's My Baby' I heard this originally in G a half step low, then saw the posts for E capoed up 2 frets and thought....ummmm yeah....that's a possibility....but I'm sticking with my first thoughts having revisited it and saying G.  The tune it reminds me of is Jackson Stomp by the Mississippi Mud Steppers.

[Blues Vintage]

John, I'm sure folks would be interested in a Sam Chatmon story or two.

That's right!

[EddieD]

Damn, I forgot all about this! hahah

[frankie]

Here are the questions on "Hollandale Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did Sam use to play the song?
   * Where did Sam fret the positions he rocks back and forth between in the stretch from 1:37--1:49?

Limiting myself to just these two points:

A standard, and I think the rocking chord he uses is a knuckle buster I associate with Eugene Powell, although Hacksaw may have used it, too:

x45255 to x34255

and back again until you HAPPILY switch to the IV chord....

The first chord is an A7 with the C# in the bass (the major 3rd of the chord) and the second is a D9 with C natural in the bass.. As you can see, he takes the lowest two notes in the chord on the 5th and 4th strings and moves them back and forth a half-step. The notes on the top three strings stay the same.

The lowest two notes of each chord from a tri-tone, if you're interested in such things, and function, going lowest note to highest, in the A7 as the major 3rd and the flat 7th - C# and G. In the D9, those lowest notes are the flat 7th and the major 3rd - C and F#. Kinda weird how lowering the tri-tone a half step inverts their relationship to the tonic of the chord.

Or... it just sounds good, so do it.

[andrescountryblues]

"Hollandale Blues"
A position standard tuning.
On :28--:35 uses the XX4535 chord.
I'm not sure about 1:37--1:49... I can hear the bass moving from the major third to minor third and the root in the treble but I can't be sure if he uses X42255 and X32255 or goes to the D position and do the bass movement in the 6th string (?)
Im thinking something like:
|------5-5----------5-5--
|------5-5----------5-5--
|--------------------------
|--------------------------
|---4------------3--------
|-0------------0----------
But i feel like I'm missing something on the treble strings.

"She's My Baby" G position standard half step down.
It reminded me to "On the Wall" by Louise Johnson but I think that song is based on the already mentioned "Cow Cow Blues".

[frankie]

According to the liner notes of the album Sam Chatmon (Flyright 63) he claimed he could play in any key. "I can pick in E flat just as good as I can in B flat". And told the interviewer his brother Bo could only pick in G or E. Not sure if that's true.

All the guys that played in the Sheiks, even for a little while, had to play in E-flat and B-flat for sure - Sam and Bo were no exception. The complaint about Bo is definitely not true - he has a good number of songs in B-flat as well as other more typical keys/tunings. I've actually seen one video of Sam playing in B-flat - I forget which song it is, but it may have made it onto one of the more recent videos that Stefan Grossman put out.

[Johnm]

Yup, Sam plays "Sales Tax" and "Fishing Blues" both out of Bb on the most recent performance footage video from Stefan Grossman, "Legendary Country Blues Guitarists".  It's the one with Connie Williams and Henry Johnson and Willie Trice.  No home should be without it!
All best,
Johnm

[waxwing]

The first chord is an A7 with the C# in the bass (the major 3rd of the chord) and the second is a D9 with C natural in the bass.. As you can see, he takes the lowest two notes in the chord on the 5th and 4th strings and moves them back and forth a half-step. The notes on the top three strings stay the same.

The lowest two notes of each chord from a tri-tone, if you're interested in such things, and function, going lowest note to highest, in the A7 as the major 3rd and the flat 7th - C# and G. In the D9, those lowest notes are the flat 7th and the major 3rd - C and F#. Kinda weird how lowering the tri-tone a half step inverts their relationship to the tonic of the chord.

Or... it just sounds good, so do it.

Right, Frank, just wanted to make the connection that this is what I was talking about in the "chordlets" discussion in Mike B's mandolin topic, that useful tritone double stop.

Wax

[Johnm]

Hi all,
It has been great to see all of the responses to the Sam Chatmon puzzlers, and I think enough people have responded, so I'll post the answers now.
For "Hollandale Blues":
   * Sam played the piece out of A position in standard tuning, as selected by Ross in the very first response--well done, Ross!  Listening to the V7 chord Sam plays, in particular, rules out Spanish tuning.
   * The IV7 chord Sam played from :28--:35, and throughout the song in the fifth and sixth bars of the form was fretted X-0-4-5-3-5, just as Andres had it--well done, Andres!  This voicing, which derives from a C7 shape, was Sam's IV7 chord of choice in both A position in standard tuning and in what he called "G tuning", DGDGBE.  Bo used the position, too, quite a lot, and if any of you have played Doc Watson's version of "Deep River Blues", you know that Doc used the position two frets higher than Sam played it here for his opening E7 chord.  On the fretted strings, the shape is voiced 3-b7-R-5, moving from the fourth string to the first, and because it is a closed position, it ends up being a very useful way to play a dominant seventh chord on the top four strings.
   * For the passage from 1:37--1:49, Sam fretted precisely what Frank described in his post:  a rocking from an A7 chord fretted 0-4-5-2-5-5 and voiced 5-3-b7-R-5-R, and a D9 chord, fretted 0-3-4-2-5-5 and voiced 9-b7-3-5-9-5.  Good on you, Frank, for getting this one!  A couple of things about this "rock" between the I7 and IV9 chords:
   1) As has been pointed out by Frank and Waxwing, the tritone in these chord positions, voiced on the fifth and fourth strings "flips" in terms of the voicing in the A7 chord, 3-b7 vs. the position moved down one fret, in the D9 chord, where it voices out as b7-3.  What is equally fascinating, I think, is that the all of the strings that do not change as you move between these two chord positions, the sixth, third, second and first strings also "flip" as you perform the rock downward from the I7 chord to the IV9 chord.  The E notes, voiced on the sixth and third strings, are 5 notes in the A7 chord and 9 notes in the D9 chord, and the A notes, voiced on the third and first strings, are roots in the A7 chord and 5 notes in the D9 chord.
   2) I don't think it is helpful to think of the open sixth string as switching from a 5 in the bass under the A7 chord to a 9 in the bass in the D9 chord.  Rather, it makes much more sense to think of the whole "rock" being done with a V note drone in the bass, or a V "pedal", as described in Classical music theory.  V pedals can sound pretty great, and I'd say Sam's rock in "Hollandale Blues" is a good advertisement for them.
   3) Note that the D9 chord is rootless, yet we don't miss the root at all.  The Jazz pianist Bill Evans was a big proponent of rootless voicings, claiming that we are so strongly acculturated to this music that our ears  fill in the root, even when it is omitted from a voicing.  I think he was right, and it is partially because we're not just hearing notes, we're hearing function, and the function only requires that the crucial elements be present, in this case the tritone in the IV9 chord, in order for us to hear and register the sense of the move.
   4) Just a note on the execution of this grab in the left hand:  I encourage all of you to try fingering and playing the chords as described above.  Sam had very big hands, and also tended to tune low, so he had a soft action.  For those of you with smaller hands, you may find you have to experiment a bit with the position of your wrist in the left hand in order to be able to reach these positions.  What has worked for me is to fret the fifth string with the second finger, the fourth string with the third finger, the third string with the index finger, and the first two strings with the little finger.  Normally, in doing a closed position and reaching that far towards the bass I would elevate the wrist a little bit, but for these positions, because the little finger has to fret both of the first two strings, I keep the wrist low, so the little finger can snag them both with its first knuckle.  It is a "big hand" move, however you slice it, and unless you have very large or limber hands it will probably require a good bit of practice to play consistently and cleanly.

For "She's My Baby":
   * Sam's playing position was G position in standard tuning, as identified by Ross, Harry and Old Man Ned--well done!
   * Sam's opening melodic motive does derive from "Cow Cow Blues", as Harry and Lyndvs had it.  I can not think of another Blues that inspired so many song re-workings as did "Cow Cow Blues".  "Jackson Stomp", which Old Man Ned mentioned is one, as is "Cigarette Blues", which Lyndvs mentioned.  There are also "That Lonesome Train Carried My Baby Away" and "Chevrolet".

Thanks to all for participating.  It's neat to have so much participation and people chiming in.  As Slack mentioned, I spent a good bit of time with Sam, and I will post some reminiscences, either here or in the Main Forum.  I'll look for some new puzzlers and will post them soon.

All best,
Johnm   

[Blues Vintage]

   * Sam's opening melodic motive does derive from "Cow Cow Blues", as Harry and Lyndvs had it.  I can not think of another Blues that inspired so many song re-workings as did "Cow Cow Blues".  "Jackson Stomp", which Old Man Ned mentioned is one, as is "Cigarette Blues", which Lyndvs mentioned.  There are also "That Lonesome Train Carried My Baby Away" and "Chevrolet".

Also Ray Charles - Mess Around.

[andrescountryblues]

Look what I found!
The man himself playing the A7, D9 rocking chords (about 2:00).



And the rest of the song is pretty much like "Hollandale blues"