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Author Topic: Robert Johnsons's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips  (Read 23270 times)

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Offline Stuart

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Re: robert johnson tuning
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2010, 12:11:08 PM »
One of the problems is that there is just so much that we don't know. Another is that when it comes to the specifics of what really happened and why, the set of "specifics" is probably made up of elements that are simple, complex, straight forward, counterintuitive, etc., etc.

Written records are invaluable, but so was oral transmission, which for the most part has been lost. Plus there's always the problem of literacy as well as the availability and accessibility of sheet music. The contra is that many of the greats had all of the musical literacy they needed.

My only suggestion is not to overstate the case or to come on too strong--from any angle or point of view. Henry Worrall is certainly one node (not to mention an interesting and historically important person)--maybe even an origin--in lines of transmission (of Spanish and Vestapol--distinguishing the names from the tunings to which they refer) with their many branches and links. But origins aren't necessarily causes. And as I mentioned, there are other possibilities. And of course, single aspect analysis has it's problems, especially when there was a vast complex of co-factors at play.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 07:59:41 PM by Stuart »

Offline blueshome

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Re: robert johnson tuning
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2010, 12:44:31 PM »
Whilst I am convinced that the Spanish and Vasterpol nomenclature came from the parlour compositions, what we don't know is why these tunings were adopted by blues players (and others). It is easy to state ,a la Brozman, that non colonial cultures picked up open tunings, but there is little hint of an explanation as to why this should be so.

Offline Michael Cardenas

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Re: robert johnson tuning
« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2010, 11:43:43 PM »
So in attempting to trace the Open D tuning in America I ran across a couple of ideas:

"I think that tunes that usually is played in D-tuning often is of Afro-American origin. A lot of the Afro-American repertoire has disappeared from the OT banjo repertoire, since the OT banjo (especially CH) seems to have been developed in "white" (is that Euro-American?) areas. There are only a few tunes that are commonly played in D-tuning on banjo. However, the Afro-American guitar music has survived better than the A-A banjo music, so the open D tuning on guitar( DADF#AD) is more common on the guitar, than on the banjo."
- Jan-Olov

"There is a much-recorded Turkish song of the Crimean War, the Sebastopol March (Sivastopol Marsi), apparently written by Rifat Bey (1820-188). Sounds quite a bit like "Vestapol" to me. The Turkish tune could have been vectored by military bands, though I haven't looked for a Western arrangement of it.

A straightforward sung performance of the Sebastopol March: Ruhi Su

With added drums, shawms and jingoism: Turkish military band performance."
- Jack Campin


« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 11:54:59 PM by Michael Cardenas »
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Offline Alexei McDonald

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Re: robert johnson tuning
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2010, 12:55:47 AM »

With added drums, shawms and jingoism: Turkish military band performance.

A very interesting post.   I saw the Mehter Band a couple of months ago in Istanbul, but I never thought they would appear on this board.   It just goes to show how wide the musical knowledge of the contibutors is, I suppose.   

Offline Chezztone

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"Love In Vain"
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2011, 09:28:54 PM »
Hey All -- Robert Johnson's "Love In Vain"....I play it in G std but it's not quite right. Dave Rubin's book has it in Spanish tuning, with huge stretches and some parts that don't quite seem right, although some parts seem closer than the way I do it. What do you think? How do you think Johnson played this lovely number, which has a very different feel from anything else in his recorded repertoire? Thanks! Cheers, Ch.

Offline frankie

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Re: "Love In Vain"
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2011, 03:06:49 AM »
Everything about it sounds like G std.  Never understood the rationale for interpreting it in spanish.

Offline frankie

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Re: "Love In Vain"
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2011, 03:39:16 PM »
However, that doesn't mean you have to do it that way.

Nobody said he had to...  but he did ask how RJ played it. If we're gonna answer every question any old way, well then I say do it in E flat with fiddle accompaniment.

Offline Stumblin

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Re: "Love In Vain"
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2011, 04:54:51 PM »
I am also a member (oo-er) of the G standard cohort. As far as I'm concerned, that is the correct tuning and the way it's played.
Sue me if I'm incorrect, I can always canoe my way to Suriname...

Offline Richard

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Re: "Love In Vain"
« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2011, 02:21:01 PM »
Better still, change the fourth string to E and put the top string back to D and then you'll be doing it like a real lap player would  :D
(That's enough of that. Ed)

Offline Michael Cardenas

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Re: robert johnson tuning
« Reply #69 on: March 16, 2012, 08:43:46 AM »
It is easy to state ,a la Brozman, that non colonial cultures picked up open tunings, but there is little hint of an explanation as to why this should be so.
Article on scordatura and Alternate Tunings - i.e., West African Guitar Tunings; sidenote: Indonesian Guitar Tunings' "Keronchong" Hawaiian influence.  http://www.museumofworldmusic.com/gui.html

We could debate the French, British, Spanish and Portuguese colonial (geographically marginal) influence on indigenous African music, but my idea here is endemic aspects of African song's tonal mechanism separate from 19th century colonial tuning influence.

Ali Farka Tour?'s Cinquante-six is in Open G

"It was on a visit to Guinea, with njurkel in hand, that Toure saw his first guitar, an event he commemorates on The Source with "Cinquante-six," the only guitar instrumental he has recorded (see tablature). "In Guinea in '56 I saw one of the greatest guitarists I have met in my life, and the finest in West Africa, Fode Ba Keita," he says. "He was the director of a group called Joliba [later Ballets Africaines] and he was playing traditional Malinke music on the guitar, singing in Bambara and French. I had my little guitar with me and when I saw him playing African tunes on the modern guitar I said to myself in my head 'I play the guitar too. Couldn't I do the same thing he does?' Only, instead of playing the songs he played, I wanted to play the music of the njurkel, to tell our stories and play our tunes. And that was how I began."

As a guitarist, Toure says he was entirely self-taught." - Elijah Wald (ALI FARKA TOURE INTERVIEW (written for Acoustic Guitar in 1993)

For the reverse impact of Open G/Blues coming from America and fitting in with the modern repertoire of Madagascar, Zafimahaleo Rasolofondraosolo a.k.a. Dama is a fine example.
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Offline Johnm

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Re: Robert Johnsons's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2012, 12:36:10 PM »
Hi all,
Here is the merged Robert Johnson guitar style thread.
All best,
Johnm

Offline CanadianStringPicker

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Taking Robert Johnson Back Down to Earth and Logic?
« Reply #71 on: August 03, 2014, 05:33:55 PM »
Sorry, wasn't sure how to word that title to make it reflect what I'm inquiring about in one short sentence :D

I have been playing Delta Blues now in depth, learning techniques and tunings, entire songs and styles specific to artists for over 2 years now. Been playing guitar for about 16 years. I have already learned almost every song from Tom Feldmanns guitar of Charlie Patton (my favorite pre war blues man) and have even learned how to sing and play in the process of learning my all time favorite style of music.

I've held off on Robert Johnson though. For a few reasons. Primarily, as much as I love his work and would love to learn some of his stuff, I can't wrap my head around how far fetched some of the speculation as to his playing techniques and tunings have become.

Rumours like he played in 29 different tunings including some that are still not known, some think it was half the strings tuned to open A and the other ones to Gb etc etc (humorous exaggeration!) Every day I read more and more analysis of his playing and it gets more and more ridiculous in speculation. Not to mention that every single video lesson or written tablature of his music is completely different. Some seem to add in way more notes than would even make logical sense with the time signature etc etc.

It's daunting. When really, when I listen to the mans work carefully, I'm only hearing Spanish tuning (G). Some songs even in Standard tuning (lots of A position playing in this and many songs extremely identical) I'm pretty sure a couple in Vestapol (D). I don't know maybe it's just me but the whole myth nonsense of Robert Johnson has spun out of control to the point of absurdity. The guy learned the blues from the elders who came before just like anyone before and after him. He's just a man who added much more depth to his playing than any before him, you can still hear the echos very clearly of Charlie Patton, Son House in his playing as well as many others from his era who did record.

Maybe I'm just not hearing it with a trained enough ear or something.....

I'm debating picking up Tom Feldmanns Guitar of Robert Johnson very soon as I have almost every song from his Charlie Patton dvd's down including singing, even adding some filler notes where I saw fit and a touch of my own style here and there. I'm ready for something a bit more technical.

Any of you much more experienced players here second my opinions on this matter?
Can anyone vouch for Tom's rendition of Johnsons tunes?
It takes booze and blues, Lord, to carry me through.

Offline waxwing

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Re: Taking Robert Johnson Back Down to Earth and Logic?
« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2014, 09:48:14 PM »
You should maybe read Elijah Wald's book Escaping the Delta. Should put things in perspective a little better for you. RJ benefitted greatly from recordings of many players outside the Delta and certainly had more influences than his the Delta elders you mentioned. Elijah goes a little overboard in his "proof" that RJ was not influential to later blues players, i.e. the Chicago scene, but he fails to mention that Robert Junior Lockwood was a direct disciple and influenced many players through the King Biscuit Radio Program and the players he played with. But he more than makes up for it in the second half of the book where he describes RJ's recording sessions.

Rather than working from videos, I think the Hal Leonard "New Transcriptions" edited by Dave Rubin gets about as close as anything if you want to work from tab. Checking the tab with your own ear will get you pretty close to the music.

So you know all of Charley, eh? Impressive. How do you handle the top tapping on the beat in such songs as Pony Blues, DTDRB and High Water. Apparently Tom doesn't go there.

Wax
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
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Offline CanadianStringPicker

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Re: Taking Robert Johnson Back Down to Earth and Logic?
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2014, 06:22:13 AM »
I may take a look at the tablature you mentioned, I prefer to learn from video though.
Not a huge fan of tablature.

Tom does cover the top tapping technique actually in the DVD's actually. Primarily in DTDRB.
I only put the top tapping technique into the songs Tom had them in or the ones I hear them in, I didn't hear it in Pony Blues at all  :-\
I am a firm believer that none of the old blues players ever played a song the exact same way twice. Even their recorded versions of their work that we have which survived is just one variation of many that happens to be the one we listen to and know.
I actually focused much more on the singing. Before starting the DVD's I couldn't sing a note and play for my life.
I have been going over and over the 2 DVD's for almost a year, it's been the only thing I've been learning for a year now lol
I basically taught myself to sing and play using Charlie Patton songs from Tom Feldmann.

Now I find I can also play more modern rock and roll or country songs and sing easily :D

Thank you for the info!

Have you used the Robert Johnson DVD's at all from Tom?
How did you find them?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 06:24:44 AM by CanadianStringPicker »
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Offline waxwing

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Re: Taking Robert Johnson Back Down to Earth and Logic?
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2014, 08:09:45 AM »
Sorry, I haven't listened to any of Tom's lessons. Nor do I use tab, but I used to when I was starting to learn. Now I prefer to learn by listening and  transcribing for myself.

Wax
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
George Bernard Shaw

“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.”
Joseph Heller, Catch-22

http://www.youtube.com/user/WaxwingJohn
CD on YT

 


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