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Country Blues => Country Blues Licks and Lessons => Topic started by: wildcotton on January 24, 2005, 11:45:32 AM

Title: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: wildcotton on January 24, 2005, 11:45:32 AM
I may  be hijacking my own post here, but it's related.  I've learned how to play BLJ's "Black Horse Blues" from BLJ's version, sparked by  Paul Rishell's,.  But I'm having lots of trouble playing it and singing it at the same time.  Most songs I can put the two together, but this one is really tough.  Anybody got any tips for playing in one direction and singing in the other?

If Blind Lemon Jefferson can do it, why can't I do it?  (Ha!)

Jeff
Title: Re: Black Horse Blues
Post by: uncle bud on January 26, 2005, 08:58:46 AM
Hi Jeff. I split this post off into it's own topic since I thought it might get a better response. Plus any excuse for another thread on Blind Lemon.  :P
I know a number of people here have worked on the guitar part for Black Horse. Whether they've got so far as to include the vocals is another story. I have to some degree, half successfully. I know Frankie's got it down. I played the guitar part until I could do it without thinking, before even attempting to get the vocal in. One thing Paul Rishell pointed out when teaching this was to land on the G bass in the bass run when you are singing the word "me" in "Tell me what time..." and to associate various words in the lyrics with the strong downbeats:
"Tell ME what TIME do the TRAIN... etc" Lemon's actually a little looser than that I think, but it can get you going then you can play around with it a bit.

Edited to add: Also, sing it so freaking loud you can barely hear the guitar notes to screw you up.
Title: Re: Black Horse Blues
Post by: wildcotton on February 02, 2005, 09:57:14 AM
Uncle Bud

That's a great tip--the one about hitting the G simultaneously with the word "me".  So is the one about singing louder than the guitar.  If I'm gonna take on BLJ, I might just get Ari's DVD.  He may even have some singing tips, too. 

Jeff
Title: Re: Black Horse Blues
Post by: Chun on February 03, 2005, 11:55:39 AM
Funny ...I was just working on BHB this morning. I have been playing this thing for about two years...I have the guitar part nailed...whenever I try to sing this with playing though everything just falls apart. Thanks for the suggestion about hitting the G note with ME...Ill have to try that. Now that I think about it...pretty much most every Blind Lemon song is tough to try and sing and play at the same time...I guess it has something to do with how unconventional his playing is as hes not hardly ever doing the boom-chuck thing and he's very crooked. Ironically I think this is what makes his playing so great, its just incredibally hard to do if you werent raised on it so to speak. I believe that banjochris does a pretty nice version of this as does Frank apparently. Any suggestions guys?
Title: Re: Black Horse Blues
Post by: uncle bud on February 04, 2005, 07:52:42 AM
Hi Chun - You're right, singing Blind Lemon can be a real high wire act. Some stuff is easier in terms of fitting singing over the playing, like Wartime Blues, Beggin' Back or Easy Rider. I'm usually working on some Blind Lemon piece or another at any given point, still haven't got any of it completely down, but when I do get the singing going over one of those crooked guitar parts it's a particularly good feeling. Chock House Blues is my current, long-time Lemon project and includes a Black Horse-like verse that's even harder to sing over than Black Horse, I find. As I mentioned above for Black Horse, I find something that helps in singing over these trickier Lemon parts is to use certain notes or beats as cues and landing places. It's partly about the independence of the parts but also partly weaving the vocal into the odd rhythms of the guitar parts. The trick is that these cues and landing spots are passing by so quickly. Like I said, I haven't mastered it, but I'm progressing slowly but surely. I'll try and point out some of these spots for me in Black Horse over the weekend.

When Rishell taught this at PT, I believe it was the song the launched him into his great speech about country blues being primarily vocal music, not guitar music, and he compared singing to going off a ski jump. Black Horse, like a lot of Lemon, is definitely a ski jump.
Title: Re: Black Horse Blues
Post by: uncle bud on February 07, 2005, 07:20:55 AM
Quote from: wildcotton on February 02, 2005, 09:57:14 AM
Uncle Bud

That's a great tip--the one about hitting the G simultaneously with the word "me".  So is the one about singing louder than the guitar.  If I'm gonna take on BLJ, I might just get Ari's DVD.  He may even have some singing tips, too. 

Jeff - meant to comment on this but forgot. Ari's video on Lemon is really great, essential for anyone interested in Lemon. It is not yet available in DVD format though. Which is a shame really because I'm sure most of the stuff that Grossman hasn't converted to DVD is just sitting on the shelf at this point. Most people just don't want to buy VHS anymore. At least not for $30. I'm sure a lot of it never sold like hotcakes to begin with and hence the back-of-the-line status, but I wish SGW would just bite the bullet and do it all. Homespun seems to have converted pretty much all of their material.

Anyway, the video is great, worth every penny. I don't recall singing tips on it though.
Title: Re: Black Horse Blues
Post by: Baird on February 13, 2006, 02:43:02 PM
Ari's Blind Lemon Video is available on DVD : http://guitarvideos.com/video/dvd/808dvd.htm
Title: Dry Southern Blues - Blind Lemon Jefferson
Post by: Baird on January 12, 2007, 01:39:15 PM
Hey Weenies,

Just curious if anyone has had any luck figuring out 'Dry Southern Blues' by Blind Lemon Jefferson.

It seems to me like he's playing out of C position (pitched at B...): the turnarounds feel like they are in the    'Bad Luck Blues' bag...

What I really can't get to sound right is the bouncy high stuff that he plays between the vocal lines.  Played out of the E shaped C chord at the 8th fret, all of the notes are available, but it is hard to get the bounce. It makes me think that he's using a tuning or a right hand trick? Is there some right hand trick he's employing to get such a lively bounce?

Any insights would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Baird
Title: Re: Dry Southern Blues - Blind Lemon Jefferson
Post by: Slack on January 12, 2007, 02:17:24 PM
Quote
It seems to me like he's playing out of C position (pitched at B...): the turnarounds feel like they are in the    'Bad Luck Blues' bag...

This is correct.  Here is a nice BLJ resource:

http://www.donegone.net/?page_id=15
Title: Re: Dry Southern Blues - Blind Lemon Jefferson
Post by: uncle bud on January 12, 2007, 02:29:59 PM
Hi Baird,

Yes, out of C position, a bit low. It has some similarities in terms of chords, riffs and fingerings to some of Lemon's many songs in C like Chock House, Mosquito Moan, Bad Luck Blues etc., but is obviously played rather differently in terms of the rhythms, which damned if I can get right now. Tricky to say the least trying to figure them out with the vocals over top, which sit over the quasi-strummy pattern Lemon is playing rather oddly to my ear!

I think the main C chord under the first vocal line is playing back and forth on the 2nd fret of the G string, the open G, and the first fret of the B string. After his F chord, he does that bass run up to an Eb note on the 4th string that's so characteristic of his C material. Almost sounds like he plays a chord here as well. The V chord, G7, is played somewhat like the V chord in Bad Luck Blues, again with that back and forth riff on 2nd fret of the 3rd string and the open 3rd. The record is in truly bad shape, and it's one of my favourite Lemon tunes.

I'll be curious to see what others have to say.

Cheers,
andrew
Title: Re: Dry Southern Blues - Blind Lemon Jefferson
Post by: Baird on January 12, 2007, 03:14:27 PM
On second thought: I'm trying to play it now in C capoed at the 3rd freet to make it out of the A position. That makes it a bit easer to hit the C5 in the choppy high part between the vocals. Not really certain that I hear the low F, so capo on 3rd fret might be viable.
Title: Re: Dry Southern Blues - Blind Lemon Jefferson
Post by: Johnm on January 12, 2007, 05:19:02 PM
Hi Baird,
It is definitely played out of C position, as Uncle Bud, John D., and Frankie have it.  The jumpiness of touch that you allude to is achieved by Lemon bringing his thumb up to the third string, mostly in the following rhythm, with beats indicated above the bars and what is being hit by the thumb in each beat:
       1          2            3        4                 1           2            3           4       
   |5th str.   Open       Rest   3rd str.     |  open      3rd str.    open      3rd str.  |
    3rd fret  3rd str.             2nd fret        3rd str.  2nd fret   3rd str.   2nd fret

The thumb rest on the third beat of the first measure is pure Lemon--genius!  He hits a little interior pick-up on the first or second string on the + of the third beat in the first measure and is then hitting either the first or second string (or both) on the + of each of the beats after that. 
What happens on the third string in this passage is much like what Rev. Davis does on the third string in his version of "Candyman", but with the third fret of the fifth string that the Rev. played eliminated once the activity starts.
One of the amazing things about "Dry Southern" is that it is actually pretty darn left-hand friendly, though at the tempo Lemon takes it, it is hard to think of it being very friendly in any way!  Have fun with it.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Dry Southern Blues - Blind Lemon Jefferson
Post by: uncle bud on January 13, 2007, 08:17:17 AM
Hi Baird,

While you could try it capoed -- I actually tried it fretting there, no capo, momentarily, before my first post, just because there is indeed an odd sonority to the poor acoustical recording and I was playing with the tone -- I would guess that Lemon wouldn't have played it that way. Doesn't mean you can't! But since the huge majority of his C tunes have numerous licks in common out of first position, I can't see why this one would be any different. I believe Lemon used this Candy Man-like C-chord riff that adds the A on the G string in Hot Dogs as well, for the V7 - I section, where again the open 3rd string and 2nd fret of the 3rd string are rocking back and forth.

It occurs to me that, perhaps coincidentally, that C chord (whaddya call it, a C6?) position X3x210, is a position he uses in some of his E-major songs, for that beautiful turnaround that moves the position up two frets then walks it down fret by fret. E.g., Piney Woods Money Mama, Oil Well Blues and the like.

BTW, I just have to say I love the oddball chord intro to this song of A7 G7 C. He does it in Beggin' Back too. Is it just me or is this weird?





Title: Re: Dry Southern Blues - Blind Lemon Jefferson
Post by: Johnm on January 13, 2007, 10:56:41 AM
You are right, Uncle Bud, about Lemon using the same rocking motion between the fifth and sixth of the I chord in many of his E blues, as well as his C blues.  And Tommy Johnson used the same rocking motion in D for his "Canned Heat Blues".  What's particularly cool about Lemon's use of the motif in C is that the rocking between the same two notes against the V chord produces movement from the I note of the V chord to its ninth, since he is fretting the seventh of the V chord up at the first fret of the first string.  Lemon doesn't do it, but you could use the same rocking motion between the same two notes over the IV chord and get a movement from the second to the third relative to that IV chord.  It's a great example, what Lemon does, of taking what the position gives you.
It isn't just you, the move from A7 to G7 to C is a surprising one, for Lemon omits the expected II7 chord, D7, which would complete the chromatic descent from the third fret of the first string to the open first string.  Riley Puckett has a similar progression in his "Poor Boy", played in F, when at the end of the progression he goes from F to D7 to C7, skipping the II7 chord, G7, along the way.
All best,
Johnm
 
Title: Re: Dry Southern Blues - Blind Lemon Jefferson
Post by: banjochris on January 13, 2007, 11:47:04 AM
Hey guys --
another really good tune with that A7 to G7 to C chord change is Frank Hutchison's "Old Rachel".
Chris
Title: Re: Dry Southern Blues - Blind Lemon Jefferson
Post by: Baird on January 15, 2007, 04:40:22 PM
Thanks for all the help on this everyone.
Does anyone have any thoughts about what position he's playing out of for the higher parts? When he chops some lines between the vocals hitting the C on the 8th fret of the first string?
I think it's either an E shaped C chord at the 8th fret or an G shaped C chord at the 5th fret.
Best Regards,
Baird

Title: Re: Dry Southern Blues - Blind Lemon Jefferson
Post by: uncle bud on January 15, 2007, 06:06:25 PM
Hi Baird,

Can you give some examples of vocal lines that the high part you're referring to follows?

cheers,
UB
Title: Re: Dry Southern Blues - Blind Lemon Jefferson
Post by: Baird on January 15, 2007, 06:38:27 PM
for example - between 'take a trip down south' high part 'well my mind lead me to take a trip down south'
Title: Re: Dry Southern Blues - Blind Lemon Jefferson
Post by: banjochris on January 15, 2007, 07:02:28 PM
Except for the tag at the very end of the song Lemon never goes above the 4th fret (he does slide up to the 8th-fret C then, though). Johnm above describes what's going on between the first and second lines. The left hand for this song's pretty simple; it's the right hand that's the pain.  Plus, the recording quality's not the best, maybe that's why you're hearing the high C.
Chris
Title: BLJ-Flat/Thumbpick?
Post by: SpikeDriver on June 27, 2008, 06:23:20 PM
I was listening to ""Black Snake Moan" and I started to picture that Lemon was playing this song with a flatpick. Just the attack on the strings and the runs sounded more like the work of a pick. I then listened to what was the 'flipside' "Match Box Blues" (Okeh 8455 03-14-27)
and it seemed like this could be a possibility as well. I noticed on YouTube that Frankie plays BLJ with finger picks and Ari uses bare fingers (and of course they both sound great!)
Obviously, there are many BLJ cuts where the two voice counterpoint has to be finger picked - but with such a large output, I thought he may have used a few other approaches.
Then I began looking at the Lemon photo and could almost convince myself that he has a white thumb pick on.
I'm just a 'sit on the couch' type guitar player and I'm not putting any of this forth as fact - but as a question for feedback from the great 'ears' here at WC. 
Title: Re: BLJ-Flat/Thumbpick?
Post by: uncle bud on June 28, 2008, 08:45:22 PM
Hi SpikeDriver - I've thought about this a bit myself in the past. Aside from the fact that Lemon does seem to be pictured wearing a thumbpick in the Paramount photo, I think there are a couple musical details that point to him using a thumbpick in the tunes in C that follow the Black Snake Moan format (there are quite a few of those songs). The first thing I'd point to is the section in "Chock House Blues" that uses the guitar part from "Black Horse Blues". The ascending chord partials played on the inner strings sound like they're plucked simultaneously, not strummed. Much of the rest of the song might actually lead you to think it's being flatpicked and one could certainly play it that way. Chock House was recorded before Black Snake Moan but the guitar parts, if not the exact licks, are very similar. The other thing is Lemon could perhaps be using a hybrid picking style, playing with a flatpick and grabbing other strings with middle or ring fingers (think Craig Ventresco, or some jazz players). But given that many of his other songs seem to be fingerpicked, I don't see why he'd use a completely different and unusual technique here - though it's Lemon, so who knows!

He could be using the thumbpick like a flatpick in places: perhaps in the bass runs. Frankie and I have bandied that about and he thinks otherwise as I recall, feeling Lemon just has a real fast thumb doing downstrokes - correct me if I'm wrong, Frank  :D. Also in some of the tremolos on the high strings, again like one gets in Chock House Blues, the thumbpick used as a flatpick technique seems possible, though it could be a finger tremolo, I suppose.

FWIW, I play Chock House, in my modest way attempting a somewhat faithful version, and it is fairly straightforward with a thumbpick, though I confess to playing many of the bass runs by alternating thumb and index.

Would be curious to hear other opinions, as I don't have definitive views or answers on this.
Title: Re: BLJ-Flat/Thumbpick?
Post by: Johnm on June 29, 2008, 07:39:21 AM
Hi all,
I agree with Andrew that Lemon almost certainly played with a thumbpick, which you can see in the photo of him.  Apart from the tremolo and boogie bass passages that Andrew cited, one lick Lemon loved that has the sound of a thumb "drag-through" lick is Lemon's way of articulating the E flat at the fourth fret of the B string going to the open E string.  He does this on many of his songs in C, and the crispness that he gets with the lick is hard to duplicate without a thumbpick.  I don't believe Lemon flat-picked or hybrid picked.  I think it was more thumb with a thumbpick and index finger.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: BLJ-Flat/Thumbpick?
Post by: frankie on June 29, 2008, 02:35:03 PM
I hate to sound like a broken rekkid, but I agree with Andrew, too:  Lemon was photographed with a thumb-pick and it sounds to me like he used one most, if not all the time, and that he was essentially a thumb+index player.  My own preference for a thumb-pick and a finger-pick has more to do with my own limitations as a player, rather than any specific attempt to reproduce any player's sound.  Regarding Ari, I'm sure he could play Lemon any way he wanted and still make it sound great.

That having been said, I think it'd be unfortunate if this discussion were to dissuade players from working out Lemon's sound with a flatpick or with bare fingers, as long as the core elements of Lemon's sound were preserved...  over-use of hammer-ons and pull-offs is what bugs me most when I hear it...  that has a tendency to smooth out the lines in a way that's over-pretty.  Lemon's attack is pretty hard - I think a guy with a flatpick could get pretty close if they put their mind to it, and come up with a sound that was nuanced, to boot.  Seems like cheapfeet has come pretty far in that regard.
Title: Re: BLJ-Flat/Thumbpick?
Post by: Johnm on June 30, 2008, 12:37:39 PM
Hi Frank,
I think if you pick your spots carefully, there's not any reason why playing hammers and pull-offs should be "Lemon-inauthentic", since he was not hammer/pull-off aversive himself, necessarily, as the beginning of "Crawling Baby Blues" shows, where he's playing in G at the base of the neck and indulges in an orgy of pull-offs and hammers around the second and third fret of the third string.  I think if the instrument makes hammers and pull-offs available in a particular place in such a way that the rhythmic crispness and propulsion are not adversely affected, it makes sense to employ them, especially if they make nuances of phrasing and articulation available in ways that picking each note separately would not.
I agree that one need not necessarily employ the very right hand approach that Lemon did for playing his music or music in his style.  There's no way I'm switching to a thumbpick or flatpick--it's bare fingers all the way for me, but I think the other approaches could work very well for other players and have done so in the past.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: BLJ-Flat/Thumbpick?
Post by: CF on June 30, 2008, 02:28:14 PM
Absolutely go with what feels right for these tunes. I learned 'Mosquito Moan' by ear & with a flatpick when I was regularly using a flatpick & I arranged a version of 'Right Of Way Blues' with a thumbpick & lately learned 'Black Horse Blues' using bare fingers (by ear & with some ideas from Ari's video on youtube). Switching it up is a lot of fun &, for me, some tunes just work better with the different approaches.
Title: Re: BLJ-Flat/Thumbpick?
Post by: frankie on June 30, 2008, 06:49:32 PM
Quote from: Johnm on June 30, 2008, 12:37:39 PM
I think if you pick your spots carefully, there's no any reason why playing hammers and pull-offs should be "Lemon-inauthentic", since he was not hammer/pull-off aversive himself

I know what you mean about Crawlin' Baby Blues, and I didn't mean to imply that Lemon *never* used hammer-ons/pull-offs...  if you look at how he played many of his blues in C, though, he really seems to have articulated many of those lines purely by picking.   For example, Corrinna Blues - the triplet riffs that are played primarily on the 1st and second string, drifting down to the 3rd string toward the end:

G - A - G / E-flat - E - G / E-flat - E - C / A  G / C

that, to me sounds way too smooth when articulated with hammer-ons/pull-offs, particularly the E-flat - E movement.  In my opinion, it loses all the crunch, power & interest when played as a hammer-on from the 4th to the 5th fret on the second string.
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: Johnm on October 30, 2012, 01:31:03 PM
Hi all,
Here is the Lemon Jefferson Guitar Style merged thread.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: Johnm on April 16, 2014, 01:44:26 PM
Hi all,
I was listening to "Peach Orchard Mama" today and realized that I think Lemon pretty much plays the whole performance from beginning to end using only his thumbpick in the right hand.  I think he did this with a fair percentage of his songs, especially later in his recording career.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Black Horse Blues
Post by: ArthurBlake on April 17, 2014, 08:54:58 AM
Quote from: wildcotton on February 02, 2005, 09:57:14 AM
Uncle Bud

That's a great tip--the one about hitting the G simultaneously with the word "me".  So is the one about singing louder than the guitar.  If I'm gonna take on BLJ, I might just get Ari's DVD.  He may even have some singing tips, too. 

Jeff
I learned the guitar for it from Ari's video and he doesn't really go into the singing of it but of course he sings it so well and being him, never messes up once. BUT I think you are on the right track. I can play it but I can't sing while doing it but admit I haven't put a huge effort into doing so. If you study Ari doing it, I suggest paying close attention to what note (or double stop) each word falls on. Also maybe play bare fingered until the vocal is nailed. I had great difficulty in trying to do it but I am sure of one thing, if one cannot sing and play Black Horse Blues then Bad Luck Blues will be deadly but there are cues in the riffs of both songs. Best to slow it all down as far as possible too I think.
                                        Ari and Paul Rishell are way way above average when it comes to this stuff. He may not teach the singing parts but he does perform all the tunes and I assure anyone that his Blind Lemon Jefferson video lesson is stunningly good, he is such a great teacher, he teaches every single note to perfection. In fact when I bought it on VHS I never imagined I would succeed in actually learning even one tune, I just bought it because i didn't actually believe it could be done (it was obviously before I knew about Ari). I was amazed when i did put the tape in, it is worth the money just for the performances alone.
Title: Re: Black Horse Blues
Post by: ArthurBlake on April 17, 2014, 09:05:59 AM
Quote from: uncle bud on February 07, 2005, 07:20:55 AM
Quote from: wildcotton on February 02, 2005, 09:57:14 AM
Uncle Bud

That's a great tip--the one about hitting the G simultaneously with the word "me".  So is the one about singing louder than the guitar.  If I'm gonna take on BLJ, I might just get Ari's DVD.  He may even have some singing tips, too. 

Jeff - meant to comment on this but forgot. Ari's video on Lemon is really great, essential for anyone interested in Lemon. It is not yet available in DVD format though. Which is a shame really because I'm sure most of the stuff that Grossman hasn't converted to DVD is just sitting on the shelf at this point. Most people just don't want to buy VHS anymore. At least not for $30. I'm sure a lot of it never sold like hotcakes to begin with and hence the back-of-the-line status, but I wish SGW would just bite the bullet and do it all. Homespun seems to have converted pretty much all of their material.

Anyway, the video is great, worth every penny. I don't recall singing tips on it though.
$30 is very cheap, when I bought it I payed 80 Australian dollars for it but I really had no choice, it was a long time ago and at that time I didn't know anyone could play any of his stuff right. The Grossman Workshop videos were incredibly rare in Australia and they still are rare in the shops but nowadays they can be got by internet unlike when i first got a Grossman VHS, Ari's lesson was just the second one I ever bought. \
                           In my last post I mentioned some difficult tunes to sing while playing, so hard I cant manage them vocally but I should have mentioned the two biggest doozies, Matchbox Blues (on that I cheated and recorded vocal by overdub) and That Crawlin' Baby Blues. I would like tips on those... any takers ?
Title: Blind lemon jefferson tablature or chords
Post by: creightonblues1920 on November 04, 2014, 07:30:26 AM
Hi it's me Creighton does anybody know or have any blind lemon tableture . What chords did he play and such . Can somebody please let me know
Title: Re: Blind lemon jefferson tablature or chords
Post by: Pan on November 04, 2014, 08:25:04 AM
John Miller teaches a variety of Lemon tunes. Check out his site. If you scroll down to the transcriptions list for country blues you'll find a list of the tunes:

http://www.johnmillerguitar.com/teaching.html (http://www.johnmillerguitar.com/teaching.html)

Ari Eisinger also has done an instructional video of Lemon tunes with TAB, here's a link:

http://www.secondmind.com/ (http://www.secondmind.com/)

Hope this helps

Cheers

Pan
Title: Re: Blind lemon jefferson tablature or chords
Post by: onewent on November 04, 2014, 04:50:00 PM
I've used Ari's TAB (as part of face-to-face lessons at his apt) and find it very accurate and helpful.  I've not experienced John's teachings, but would predict it's top notch.  Tom
Title: Blind lemon Jefferson Help !
Post by: creightonblues1920 on January 23, 2015, 02:18:45 PM
Hi I am creighton I am 14 years old you may know me as creighton Wodarski on facebook . I have autism and the mind of a forty year old I obsess on the blues from the 20s and thought that maybe this would be the place for help . I also play charlie patton son house and Willie brown and Robert Johnson . I am struggling on blind lemon . He is very hard . I know about the videos that are lessons on YouTube but I know there's many of you guys that can help me with this . I want to know his riffs, licks , and songs and tabs . I also am wanting to speak to Frankie basline the man on YouTube known as frankie12string . If he could see this page and comment back I would appreciate it he seems to know almost every lemon song . If he could help me out as well as you guys it would mean the whole word. To me , if any of you guys have any tabs , riffs licks and songs or instructions please send them my way ! I don't bite! . I am hoping to learn a good amount of his songs and styles and maybe hopefully make songs using his style of style . Thanks you guys for reading i thank  you guys a lot . Hope to hear from you soon . creighton
Title: Re: Blind lemon Jefferson Help !
Post by: banjochris on January 23, 2015, 03:43:51 PM
I would really recommend Ari Eisinger's Blind Lemon DVD lesson video, it's very helpful. There's a huge thread on BLJ lyrics here and most of them are on Weeniepedia, I believe.
Good luck!
Chris
Title: Re: Blind lemon Jefferson Help !
Post by: Rivers on January 23, 2015, 04:44:26 PM
Here's a link to the weeniepedia lyrics index for Lemon. Many (most?) of the Lemon lyric pages will tell you which position, and actual 'sounding' key, the song was played out of.

http://weeniecampbell.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Blind_Lemon_Jefferson_Lyrics (http://weeniecampbell.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Blind_Lemon_Jefferson_Lyrics)

I agree with Chris, Ari's DVD is very helpful. The songs he selects demonstrate Lemon's approach and various key ideas, played in some of the positions Lemon favoured.
Title: Re: Blind lemon Jefferson Help !
Post by: frankie on January 24, 2015, 02:51:16 PM
Hi Creighton - Ari's video is definitely the best place to start with Lemon...  I started with him more than 20 years ago ( no video THEN! ) and not much has changed, really - he's still got the best grasp on Lemon of anyone...  I learned how to hear what I can of country blues just by observing him pick apart One Dime Blues phrase by phrase.

I do love Blind Lemon's music, and play what I can although things like Matchbox Blues I'll probably never touch! :) I know everyone has their favorites and what they consider to be the most important CB players...  I have lots and lots of favorite sounds, but the two that I will always and forever return to are Reverend Gary Davis and Blind Lemon Jefferson.  They each represent such a compelling and unique combination of ability and imagination.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Blind lemon Jefferson Help !
Post by: frankie on January 24, 2015, 02:58:17 PM
One more thing - John Miller teaches That Crawlin' Baby Blues on this DVD:

Texas Blues Guitar (http://www.guitarvideos.com/styles-1/blues/texas-blues-guitar)

I've known John a long time, too, and there's NOTHING he can't teach or play - even a tune as nutty as this!
Title: Re: Blind lemon Jefferson Help !
Post by: ArthurBlake on February 21, 2015, 08:38:59 PM
Quote from: frankie on January 24, 2015, 02:58:17 PM
One more thing - John Miller teaches That Crawlin' Baby Blues on this DVD:

Texas Blues Guitar (http://www.guitarvideos.com/styles-1/blues/texas-blues-guitar)

I've known John a long time, too, and there's NOTHING he can't teach or play - even a tune as nutty as this!
I'll second that Frankie, Mr John Miller is amazing. As For Crawlin Baby Blues, he does teach it perfectly but I think your video of the song is maybe your best, we have talked before about how to actually sing the tune over that fantastically tricky and cool guitar and I still can't sing it and dare not ever try it at a gig. I know young Creighton as he is a friend on Facebook and his passion is %100 and I am sure that he will rise and rise and be great. I reckon you should do a video on Blind Lemon tunes as well and to do different tunes than Ari has on his video. As for Ari I think he is the best player alive today.
Title: Re: Blind lemon Jefferson Help !
Post by: Chuckboom on March 02, 2015, 11:11:00 AM
Ari,s lessons on BLJ are outstanding. They've  taken me more than a year to digest but have opened up the fretboard for me. Thank you Ari and of course Lemon as well.I wish I had found this material decades ago.Good luck Mr.Chreigton keep pickin your on the right path.
Title: Re: Blind lemon Jefferson Help !
Post by: Rivers on March 02, 2015, 05:03:50 PM
As an aside, I think Ari's teaching style in person is interesting. In front of a class he will honestly point out something that he hasn't quite got, and ask for suggestions. Maybe it's 'this' (plays something), but maybe it's 'that' (plays something else). Cut to creative class-noodling all round followed by more dialog.

This engages the class, some of whom might well come up with something else entirely that is also in the ballpark.

Pedagogical method 101. Create a question in the minds of the class, nature hates a vacuum. Johnm is also a master of this. I suspect it's entirely instinctive for both of them, like all good teachers.
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: Johnm on January 23, 2016, 10:23:33 AM
Hi all,
I had occasion recently to do a lesson on "Low Down Mojo Blues" recently--it's played out of E position in standard tuning and is working a lot of the same territory as "Pneumonia Blues" and "Yo Yo Blues"--and I came away with the strong impression that on that song, and I'm convinced, many others, Lemon used his fingers in his right hand for picking very sparingly, using his thumb (with a thumbpick) to play almost the entire piece, much as you can see JB Lenoir and Buddy Moss do on some of the performance footage of their playing.  Lemon, of course, had tremendous facility with his right thumb and a huge technical arsenal of varied attacks, down-up picking, tremolo, controlled little brushes, et al.  Another huge category of his repertoire that I'm convinced he played almost entirely with his thumb would be his C pieces like "Blacksnake Moan", a sort of accompaniment template that he re-visited very often in his later recording career.

I'm curious as to whether folks who have worked through a fair amount of Lemon's material have come to similar or different conclusions.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: frankie on January 23, 2016, 11:13:33 AM
I've definitely come to the same conclusion. On the pieces you've mentioned, there's very little of anything like a constant bass underneath some treble licks. It seems to me that if someone were determined and nuanced enough, that you could get a lot of the same texture with a flatpick.
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: CF on January 23, 2016, 11:24:20 AM
Very interesting! I'm going to do some listening to hear what you guys are hearing.
All my first attempts at Lemon were with a flatpick. I now finger pick most of the time but the stuff I learned from Lemon with a flatpick greatly informed even my, say, folky, old-time guitar playing.
I use a flatpick periodically these days to get a certain sound & style out of my banjo-guitar.
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: uncle bud on January 23, 2016, 12:27:32 PM
Agreed. I'd say it's also hard to nail down any particular pattern other than a lot of thumb (i.e. he adds an index finger when doing this kind of lick). He just seems to be very fluid with it all, sometimes throwing in an index, sometimes all thumb. He must have had a very loose and free right hand.

I probably tend to overuse my index finger playing Lemon, especially for quick bass runs. 
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: rvidales on April 14, 2016, 10:41:27 PM
Hi everybody,

I'm researching alternate tunings in Texas country blues music and was wondering what selections from Blind Lemon Jefferson's catalogue make the cut. Anybody have suggestions that include the song and particular tuning?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: frankie on April 15, 2016, 02:57:48 AM
It's safe to say that Lemon appears to have been a standard tuning kind of guy. The two takes of Jack O' Diamonds, played with a bottleneck or knife, are both possibilities for Spanish tuning but since it's basically only a melody, it's difficult to say with complete confidence in what tuning he's playing for that one. My personal opinion is that he's probably tuned to Spanish.

I had this table posted in my website which is having some issues at the moment, so I'll repost it here. I think there are a couple of alternate takes missing, but all of those are also in standard tuning.

Volume
Track
Title
Key
Location
Month
Year
Pitch
101 I Want to Be Like Jesus in My HeartCChicagoDecember1925-1
102All I Want Is That Pure ReligionEChicagoDecember1925-1
103Got the BluesGChicagoMarch1926-1
104Long Lonesome BluesAChicagoMarch1926-1
105Booster BluesEChicagoMarch1926-1
106Dry Southern BluesCChicagoMarch1926-1
107Black Horse BluesCChicagoApril19260
108Corinna BluesCChicagoApril19260
109Got the BluesGChicagoMay19260
110Long Lonesome BluesAChicagoMay19260
111Jack O''Diamond BluesSpanish (G)ChicagoMay19260
112Jack O''Diamond BluesSpanish (G)ChicagoMay19260
113Chock House BluesCChicagoMay19260
114Beggin'' BackCChicagoAugust1926+3
115Old Rounders BluesCChicagoAugust1926+1
116Stocking Feet BluesAChicagoNovember1926-1
117That Black Snake MoanCChicagoNovember1926-2
118Wartime BluesEChicagoNovember1926-1
119Broke and HungryGChicagoNovember1926-1
120Shuckin'' Sugar BluesAChicagoNovember1926-3
121Booger Rooger BluesCChicagoDecember1926-1
122Rabbit Foot BluesAChicagoDecember1926-1
123Bad Luck BluesCChicagoDecember1926+1
201Black Snake MoanCAtlantaMarch1927-2
202Match Box BluesAAtlantaMarch1927-1
203Easy Rider BluesGChicagoApril19270
204Match Box BluesAChicagoApril19270
205Match Box BluesAChicagoApril1927+1
206Rising High Water BluesNo Guitar (C)ChicagoMay19270
207Weary Dogs BluesCChicagoMay1927+1
208Right of Way BluesEChicagoMay1927+1
209Teddy Bear BluesNo Guitar (F)ChicagoJune19270
210Black Snake Dream BluesNo Guitar (G)ChicagoJune19270
211Hot DogsCChicagoJune1927+1
212He Arose from the DeadCChicagoJune1927+1
213Struck Sorrow BluesAChicagoSeptember1927-1
214Rambler BluesGChicagoSeptember19270
215Chinch Bug BluesCChicagoOctober19270
216Deceitful Brownskin BluesGChicagoOctober1927+1
217Sunshine SpecialCChicagoOctober1927+1
218Gone Dead on You BluesAChicagoOctober1927+1
219Where Shall I Be?EChicagoOctober1927+1
220See That My Grave''s Kept CleanEChicagoOctober1927+1
221One Dime BluesEChicagoOctober1927+1
222Lonesome House BluesCChicagoOctober1927+1
301Blind Lemon''s Penitentiary BluesCChicagoFebruary1928-1
302''Lectric Chair BluesEChicagoFebruary19280
303See That My Grave Is Kept CleanEChicagoFebruary19280
304Lemon''s Worried BluesAChicagoFebruary19280
305Mean Jumper BluesCChicagoFebruary19280
306Balky Mule BluesAChicagoFebruary19280
307Change My Luck BluesCChicagoFebruary19280
308Prison Cell BluesEChicagoFebruary19280
309Lemon''s Cannonball MoanAChicagoMarch1928+1
310Long Lastin'' Lovin''AChicagoMarch19280
311Piney Woods Money MamaEChicagoMarch19280
312Low Down Mojo BluesEChicagoJune1928+1
313Competition Bed BluesCChicagoJuly1928-1
314Lock Step BluesCChicagoJuly19280
315Hangman''s BluesGChicagoJuly19280
316Sad News BluesCChicagoJuly19280
317How Long How LongCChicagoJuly1928+1
318Christmas Eve BluesCChicagoAugust1928+1
319Happy New Year BluesCChicagoAugust1928+1
320Maltese Cat BluesCChicagoAugust1928+1
321D B BluesEChicagoAugust1928-1
401Eagle Eyed MamaAChicagoJanuary1929-1
402Dynamite BluesCChicagoJanuary1929-1
403Disgusted BluesCChicagoJanuary1929-1
404Competition Bed BluesCChicagoJanuary1929-1
405Sad New BluesCChicagoJanuary1929-1
406Peach Orchard MamaAChicagoMarch1929-1
407Oil Well BluesEChicagoMarch19290
408Tin Cup BluesCChicagoMarch19290
409Big Night BluesAChicagoMarch19290
410Empty House BluesCChicagoMarch1929-1
411Saturday Night Spender BluesEChicagoMarch1929-1
412That Black Snake Moan No. 2CChicagoMarch1929-1
413Bed Springs BluesARichmondSeptember1929-1
414Yo Yo BluesERichmondSeptember19290
415Mosquito MoanCRichmondSeptember1929-1
416Southern Woman BluesARichmondSeptember1929-2
417Bakershop BluesCRichmondSeptember1929-2
418Pneumonia BluesERichmondSeptember1929-2
419Long Distance MoanCRichmondSeptember1929-2
420That Crawlin'' Baby BluesGRichmondSeptember1929-2
421Fence Breakin'' Yellin'' BluesCRichmondSeptember1929-2
422Cat Man BluesARichmondSeptember1929-2
423The Cheaters SpellERichmondSeptember1929-2
424Bootin'' Me ''BoutCRichmondSeptember1929-2
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: rvidales on April 15, 2016, 10:58:06 AM
Wow this is great. Quite a list.

Yeah I'm finding that he played most of his songs in standard tuning. However, on a few of them I've been able to discern some tunings based on how low he tuned his bottom bass string. "Rabbit Foot Blues," "Got the Blues," and "Peach Orchard Mama" all seem to have a different tuning. However, the nature of his recordings aren't very conducive for transcribing. 

Thanks for this list. Definitely helps!
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: banjochris on April 15, 2016, 02:43:58 PM
Quote from: rvidales on April 15, 2016, 10:58:06 AM
Yeah I'm finding that he played most of his songs in standard tuning. However, on a few of them I've been able to discern some tunings based on how low he tuned his bottom bass string. "Rabbit Foot Blues," "Got the Blues," and "Peach Orchard Mama" all seem to have a different tuning. However, the nature of his recordings aren't very conducive for transcribing. 

As you can see from Frankie's list, Lemon's pitches could vary quite a lot, i.e. he tuned flat or sharp of standard pitch. All the tunes you mention are in standard, though. "Got the Blues" is in G and the other two in A.
Chris
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: frankie on April 15, 2016, 06:52:33 PM
Quote from: banjochris on April 15, 2016, 02:43:58 PM
Lemon's pitches could vary quite a lot, i.e. he tuned flat or sharp of standard pitch. All the tunes you mention are in standard, though. "Got the Blues" is in G and the other two in A.

Exactly - and rvidales, one thing to remember is that pitch alone isn't a particularly good indicator of tuning...  what you're listening for is the relative relationships between the strings, independent of pitch. In my way of thinking, the following combinations of pitches on a guitar all qualify as "standard tuning":

E A D G B E
D G C F A D
F Bflat Eflat Aflat C F
Csharp Fsharp B E Gsharp Csharp
G C F Bflat D G
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: Johnm on April 15, 2016, 07:45:48 PM
I like Robert Belfour's term for standard tuning:  "Natural".  And for him, "Natural" was usually pitched with the sixth string at about C# or so.  The whole issue of re-tuning away from standard pitch, whether you're talking about standard tuning, Spanish, Vestapol, or whatever, has to do with putting the position/tuning you wish to play in in a good singing key for your voice.  As Frank notes, the pitch at which a rendition sounds has little to do with the position which is used to play a song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: cblanch on April 23, 2017, 03:36:58 AM
Hi Frankie. I'm a very recent member of this quite incredible site and this is my first attempt at trying to contribute something of possible use.

Looking at your table of keys, both in terms of chord shapes used and absolute pitches in reference to A 440, it strikes me that if I was BLJ, working the streets playing and singing a variety of material pitched to suit my voice, I'd probably keep my guitar tuned to 'standard tuning', 3 frets flat of concert pitch (C sharp, F sharp, B, E, G sharp, C sharp) and use a capo to raise the pitch of my guitar accompaniment (played out of C, G, A or E 'shapes') to match the absolute pitch I found most comfortable to sing each particular song in. I probably wouldn't be performing "Jack O' Diamonds", hustling dimes on a street corner.

Anyone who's worked the streets, knows you really have to work to keep a crowd, even when you've got someone to 'bottle' the crowd for you.. If you're blind, without a lead boy, it must be massively more difficult.. Stop to re-tune between numbers and a crowd will melt away literally in seconds. And, by all accounts, BLJ, despite his blindness was a master at dominating a street crowd and proud of his ability to recognize the sound of anything less than a dime thrown into his tin cup (and would, with great disdain, remove the offending item and throw it back...a great way to shame your audience to be more generous). Using a capo instead of re-tuning makes much more sense.

And it has other obvious advantages too.. Pre-War steel string sets came in one gauge..Heavy (14 to 64). No one knows for certain what guitar (or guitars) Jefferson used on the streets, but it was most likely made by Lyon & Healy in Chicago.

By 1900, L & H built 25% of all guitars made in the US, under as many as 7 distinct brand names, positioned at different quality/price points in the market, as well as all the different grades of guitars sold by the two great mail order catalog retailers, Montgomery Ward and Sears & Roebuck.

Of all the L & H brands, the Washburn brand instruments were always in a class of their own, built by a separate team of craftsmen from the finest materials in limited numbers (averaging less than 1,000 instruments a year, over the first 3 decades of the 20th Century).

From the cheapest (a Ward or Sears "catalog" parlour, delivered COD, with case, for $4) to the top-of-the-line Washburn (a model 399 grand concert for $175) all L & H instruments were well made and, more importantly, well designed, but no guitars had truss rods in those days and not all guitars were designed for steel strings, regardless of who made them.

If you're a blind, black street singer/beggar, with an old, cheap, ladder-braced, second-hand, parlour, originally built for gut strings, it makes sense to tune down...you don't need an engineering degree to tell you it's not a good idea to try to tune a set of 14 to 64 gauge steel strings to concert on a guitar designed for gut strings..after you've ripped the bridge off one, you don't try it again (for those engineers out there, a set of gut strings at concert pitch in standard tuning on a guitar with a 24.8" scale, exerts about 80 lb ft of torque on a guitar bridge. the corresponding torque exerted by a set of 14 to 64 steel strings in standard tuning at concert is about 220 lb ft of torque, probably more than the peak torque the driven wheels of your car puts down to the road...unless you drive a muscle car, of course).

Anyway, sorry about that..must have been first-post nervousness in such exalted company that prompted such a long-winded attempt to make a very minor point. Oh, and by the way, tuning down 3 frets gives you that audible C sharp on the open 6th string and you can even play "Beggin' Back"  out of C shapes with the capo on the 6th fret...  >:D

Quote from: frankie on April 15, 2016, 02:57:48 AM
It's safe to say that Lemon appears to have been a standard tuning kind of guy. The two takes of Jack O' Diamonds, played with a bottleneck or knife, are both possibilities for Spanish tuning but since it's basically only a melody, it's difficult to say with complete confidence in what tuning he's playing for that one. My personal opinion is that he's probably tuned to Spanish.

I had this table posted in my website which is having some issues at the moment, so I'll repost it here. I think there are a couple of alternate takes missing, but all of those are also in standard tuning.

Volume
Track
Title
Key
Location
Month
Year
Pitch
101 I Want to Be Like Jesus in My HeartCChicagoDecember1925-1
102All I Want Is That Pure ReligionEChicagoDecember1925-1
103Got the BluesGChicagoMarch1926-1
104Long Lonesome BluesAChicagoMarch1926-1
105Booster BluesEChicagoMarch1926-1
106Dry Southern BluesCChicagoMarch1926-1
107Black Horse BluesCChicagoApril19260
108Corinna BluesCChicagoApril19260
109Got the BluesGChicagoMay19260
110Long Lonesome BluesAChicagoMay19260
111Jack O''Diamond BluesSpanish (G)ChicagoMay19260
112Jack O''Diamond BluesSpanish (G)ChicagoMay19260
113Chock House BluesCChicagoMay19260
114Beggin'' BackCChicagoAugust1926+3
115Old Rounders BluesCChicagoAugust1926+1
116Stocking Feet BluesAChicagoNovember1926-1
117That Black Snake MoanCChicagoNovember1926-2
118Wartime BluesEChicagoNovember1926-1
119Broke and HungryGChicagoNovember1926-1
120Shuckin'' Sugar BluesAChicagoNovember1926-3
121Booger Rooger BluesCChicagoDecember1926-1
122Rabbit Foot BluesAChicagoDecember1926-1
123Bad Luck BluesCChicagoDecember1926+1
201Black Snake MoanCAtlantaMarch1927-2
202Match Box BluesAAtlantaMarch1927-1
203Easy Rider BluesGChicagoApril19270
204Match Box BluesAChicagoApril19270
205Match Box BluesAChicagoApril1927+1
206Rising High Water BluesNo Guitar (C)ChicagoMay19270
207Weary Dogs BluesCChicagoMay1927+1
208Right of Way BluesEChicagoMay1927+1
209Teddy Bear BluesNo Guitar (F)ChicagoJune19270
210Black Snake Dream BluesNo Guitar (G)ChicagoJune19270
211Hot DogsCChicagoJune1927+1
212He Arose from the DeadCChicagoJune1927+1
213Struck Sorrow BluesAChicagoSeptember1927-1
214Rambler BluesGChicagoSeptember19270
215Chinch Bug BluesCChicagoOctober19270
216Deceitful Brownskin BluesGChicagoOctober1927+1
217Sunshine SpecialCChicagoOctober1927+1
218Gone Dead on You BluesAChicagoOctober1927+1
219Where Shall I Be?EChicagoOctober1927+1
220See That My Grave''s Kept CleanEChicagoOctober1927+1
221One Dime BluesEChicagoOctober1927+1
222Lonesome House BluesCChicagoOctober1927+1
301Blind Lemon''s Penitentiary BluesCChicagoFebruary1928-1
302''Lectric Chair BluesEChicagoFebruary19280
303See That My Grave Is Kept CleanEChicagoFebruary19280
304Lemon''s Worried BluesAChicagoFebruary19280
305Mean Jumper BluesCChicagoFebruary19280
306Balky Mule BluesAChicagoFebruary19280
307Change My Luck BluesCChicagoFebruary19280
308Prison Cell BluesEChicagoFebruary19280
309Lemon''s Cannonball MoanAChicagoMarch1928+1
310Long Lastin'' Lovin''AChicagoMarch19280
311Piney Woods Money MamaEChicagoMarch19280
312Low Down Mojo BluesEChicagoJune1928+1
313Competition Bed BluesCChicagoJuly1928-1
314Lock Step BluesCChicagoJuly19280
315Hangman''s BluesGChicagoJuly19280
316Sad News BluesCChicagoJuly19280
317How Long How LongCChicagoJuly1928+1
318Christmas Eve BluesCChicagoAugust1928+1
319Happy New Year BluesCChicagoAugust1928+1
320Maltese Cat BluesCChicagoAugust1928+1
321D B BluesEChicagoAugust1928-1
401Eagle Eyed MamaAChicagoJanuary1929-1
402Dynamite BluesCChicagoJanuary1929-1
403Disgusted BluesCChicagoJanuary1929-1
404Competition Bed BluesCChicagoJanuary1929-1
405Sad New BluesCChicagoJanuary1929-1
406Peach Orchard MamaAChicagoMarch1929-1
407Oil Well BluesEChicagoMarch19290
408Tin Cup BluesCChicagoMarch19290
409Big Night BluesAChicagoMarch19290
410Empty House BluesCChicagoMarch1929-1
411Saturday Night Spender BluesEChicagoMarch1929-1
412That Black Snake Moan No. 2CChicagoMarch1929-1
413Bed Springs BluesARichmondSeptember1929-1
414Yo Yo BluesERichmondSeptember19290
415Mosquito MoanCRichmondSeptember1929-1
416Southern Woman BluesARichmondSeptember1929-2
417Bakershop BluesCRichmondSeptember1929-2
418Pneumonia BluesERichmondSeptember1929-2
419Long Distance MoanCRichmondSeptember1929-2
420That Crawlin'' Baby BluesGRichmondSeptember1929-2
421Fence Breakin'' Yellin'' BluesCRichmondSeptember1929-2
422Cat Man BluesARichmondSeptember1929-2
423The Cheaters SpellERichmondSeptember1929-2
424Bootin'' Me ''BoutCRichmondSeptember1929-2

I corrected the quoted section so it appeared formatted as a quote, was missing initial '[' - rivers
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: Johnm on April 23, 2017, 09:08:30 AM
Hi cblanch,
Welcome to Weenie Campbell.  The scenario you propose in which Lemon routinely tuned a minor third low and capoed to the third fret to sound at A 440 in standard tuning is implausible, I think, for a number of reasons:
   * For someone playing on the street who is blind, it would make no sense to rely so completely on a device that is so easily mislaid, lost or stolen.  Far easier and more practical is to be able to tune to the pitch that enables you to play the different songs in your repertoire in the playing positions that you've determined work best for them.  Tuning up or down quickly is not a big deal for someone who spent the time playing that Lemon did, and there's no reason he needed to be in tune to any fixed pitch reference point--simply being in tune with himself in the relative sense would suffice perfectly well.
   * All of the guitars that Lemon played were twelve frets to the body, and a fair percentage of Lemon's tunes that he played out of E position, G position and A position in standard tuning worked in the range of the ninth to twelfth fret on the first and second strings.  Capoed at the third fret, anything he played above the ninth fret would require him to be fretting above the point at which the neck meets the body of the guitar.  The ease and fluidity with which he played in that portion of his range when required to by a song's demands make the capo on the third fret theory a non-starter.
   * In all of Lemon's recorded repertoire, there is only one song, "Beggin' Back", that would have required him to tune more than a whole step higher than concert pitch.  The great majority of his repertoire has him either at concert pitch or slightly lower.  The habitual use of a capo to sound at lower than concert pitch would be very odd.
   * Once Lemon started recording, I don't know how much sense it makes to posit theories with regard to his playing practice that use his busking as the basis for his guitar playing method.  He was a hugely popular and successful recording artist, a best seller.  I don't believe it is known how much he continued to busk after he began recording.  What's more to the point is how he functioned in the recording studio, especially since that is what Frank's table addresses.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: Lastfirstface on April 24, 2017, 05:36:18 AM
Quote from: cblanch on April 23, 2017, 03:36:58 AM

From the cheapest (a Ward or Sears "catalog" parlour, delivered COD, with case, for $4) to the top-of-the-line Washburn (a model 399 grand concert for $175) all L & H instruments were well made and, more importantly, well designed, but no guitars had truss rods in those days and not all guitars were designed for steel strings, regardless of who made them.

If you're a blind, black street singer/beggar, with an old, cheap, ladder-braced, second-hand, parlour, originally built for gut strings, it makes sense to tune down...you don't need an engineering degree to tell you it's not a good idea to try to tune a set of 14 to 64 gauge steel strings to concert on a guitar designed for gut strings..after you've ripped the bridge off one, you don't try it again (for those engineers out there, a set of gut strings at concert pitch in standard tuning on a guitar with a 24.8" scale, exerts about 80 lb ft of torque on a guitar bridge. the corresponding torque exerted by a set of 14 to 64 steel strings in standard tuning at concert is about 220 lb ft of torque, probably more than the peak torque the driven wheels of your car puts down to the road...unless you drive a muscle car, of course).


The photo of BLJ has him holding a tailpiece guitar, none of which were "built for gut strings."
Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: Stuart on April 24, 2017, 09:47:40 AM
String tension for a guitar (usually measured in pounds in the U.S., but sometimes in Newtons) and torque (measured in Newton meters or foot pounds) are not the same.

Title: Re: Blind Lemon Jefferson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips
Post by: Pencapchew1988 on January 17, 2024, 09:58:45 AM
It’s kind of funny how a lot of people don’t notice that Blind Lemon was holding a tailpiece guitar. I’ve noticed a lot of art where it’s depicted as a stain on the bottom of the guitar.
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