Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[Forgetful Jones]

This was really tough for me and I don't have a lot of confidence in my answers.

For "Burns my Bread" I had been messing around in standard tuning playing long A shapes, but there was a dissonant open 4th string that I was hearing during the break. Could it be that this is in B-Flat? I don't know of other songs that may use this key.

I didn't spend a lot of time with "Loveless Love," but right in the intro with a similar chord pattern as "Burns My Bread" (D-shaped G & G minor chords) I could also hear the open 4th string. So I think that one is in G, standard tuning.

Bo Carter is an intimidating player for me (very sophisticated style to my ears). And I've read on this site that he uses some open tunings that I have not played with, so I could be way off.

Cheers!

Edited to correct a misspelling.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
There have been no responses to the two Bo Carter puzzlers posted for several days, so I will post the answers. I should say before I start that I think the tuning/position identifications on the songs that Bo flat-picked are difficult because on these songs he was working for the most part using closed chord positions in the left hand, and probably the biggest assist in figuring out what tuning or position a player was using to play a song is being able to hear where the open strings fall in the sound of what's being played. Anyway, here goes:

For "She's Your Cook, But She Burns My Bread Sometimes":
   * Bo Carter played the song of Bb position in standard tuning, as Forgetful Jones had it. I'll get into how you could make that identification in the answer to the next question.
   * In Bo's solo, at 1:18, 1:21, and several places after that I heard what I needed to make the identification of his playing position as Bb in standard tuning. He starts the solo with one of his favorite moves up the neck, rocking between a I chord played out of the D shape on the first three strings to a IV7 chord, also on the first three strings, which he would get by raising the third string two frets, keeping the second string where he was fretting it in the D shape, and lowering the first string one fret. Bo loved this move, and employed it on many of his songs that I bet a lot of you play, like "I Want You To Know" and the solo of "Arrangement For Me Blues". In any event, the D shape voices its third on the first string--think about a D chord at the base of the neck, where the note on the first string is F#, the third of the D chord.
   At 1:18 and 1:21 and virtually every other time in the solo when Bo played that D shape up the neck, he purposely or inadvertently also hit the open fourth string with his pick, and the note on the open fourth string is the same as the note on the first string in that D shape up the neck, but two octaves lower. So if the open fourth string is the same note as the third of the chord up the neck in the D shape, which is the I chord, what chord has D as its third? Bb. So it is, that Bo played the song out of Bb position in standard tuning, and this despite the fact that the rendition sounds in B, where Prof Scratchy had it. I think it is much more likely that Bo was tuned a half-step high than that he was using a capo at the first fret.
   An additional indication of Bo's chordal sophistication is the fact that he didn't voice his I chord, Bb and his V7 chord, F7, in only one way behind his singing throughout the course of the rendition. He begins the song voicing his Bb chord like a barred E shape at the sixth fret, 6-8-8-7-6-6, and voices his F7 chord like a C7 at the eighth fret, X-8-7-8-6-X. But later in the song, at 1:52, in the first verse after the solo, he ends the first A part of that verse voicing his Bb chord at the base of the neck, 1-1-3-3-3-X, and at 2:00 he concludes the second A part of that verse by playing an F7 at the base of the neck, 1-X-3-2-4-1. So, even on such a complicated chord progression, Bo didn't just figure out one way of playing the progression and stick to it for the entire song; rather, he was able to play some variations in his chordal back-up.

For "Loveless Love:
   * Bo's playing position/tuning was G position in standard tuning*, as Forgetful Jones and Old Man Ned had it. I asterisked that identification for reasons that will be explained in the next answer.
   * Before the piece even hits :01 and again at :04, you can hear what enables the identification of G as the playing position. Bo begins the piece with the same chordal movement that he employed for the solo of "She's Your Cook, But She Burns My Bread Sometimes", and as in that song, he purposely or inadvertently hits the open D string as he strums the D shape on the first three strings. Unlike "She's Your Cook", where the open D string matched the third of the D shape voiced on the first string, in "Loveless Love", the open D string matches the fifth of the D shape, the note on the third string, but sounding one octave lower in pitch. Old Man Ned noted this in his response. So if D is the V of the I chord, what does that make the I chord? G.
   A respect in which this identification can not be made with absolute certainty is that from the beginning to the end of the rendition, Bo only plays the fourth through first strings, and never sounds the sixth and fifth strings. And because the DGDGBE tuning that Bo favored for so much of his fingerpicked playing is the same as standard tuning on the first four strings, it is not impossible that Bo played the song out of DGDGBE tuning, as Lyndvs had it--the left and right hands would be identical in standard tuning in G or in DGDGBE tuning in G for "Loveless Love" as Bo played it here. My belief is that Bo played it out of standard tuning, mostly because all of his other flat-picked tunes that I've heard were played out of standard tuning, but that having been said, DGDGBE tuning can not be ruled out for "Loveless Love" with certainty. And the great thing about doing the song in standard tuning, is that if you wanted to do it but your vocal range was higher or lower than Bo's, you could move the accompaniment around, whereas moving the accompaniment around in DGDGBE tuning would be much more problematic.

Thanks to all who participated in what I think were unusually tough puzzlers. I hope folks enjoyed the tunes. I will look for some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm   

[rein]

Off course this is just a hunch and can t be proven either way,but maybe Bo Carter played this, and other songs where you dont hear the lower strings like Banana in your fruit basket, on a tenor guitar. As I understood, in that time tenor players would tune DGBE, like the top strings of the guitar. Tenor guitars would porably have been not uncommon for string band players. I believe Will Shade also played one and tenor banjos where still the thing in Jazz and pop music at the time. Then it might also make sense to develop the half spanish tuning, to adopt these pieces for guitar with the bass. As I said this is only a, quite uneducated, guess. Thanks a lot for these series. I dont really reply much, but that is because I am often late, unsure or just wrong, but I have learned a lot from these indept listening sessions.   All the best, Rein

[Johnm]

You make a good point, rein, with regard to "Loveless Love", at least. I also wondered if Bo possibly played the song on a tenor guitar. It really would be odd for a guitarist so adept at voicing different chords up and down the neck to arbitrarily choose to play an entire song just on the first four strings of a conventionally-strung six-string guitar. What would be the point, especially on a record? It would also be an odd choice to make when he played so many songs with the same kind of chordal vocabulary on a six-string guitar. The choice being dictated by the instrument itself, in many ways, makes the most sense of all.
All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for anyone who cares to participate, and they're a kind of barbershop duet, in that both of the musicians were barbers. The first is from Wade Walton, and it is his version of "Big Fat Mama", from his Prestige Bluesville album in the early '60s. The second is from Archie Edwards, and it is his song, "Everybody's Blues". Here is "Big Fat Mama":



Here are the questions on Wade Walton's "Big Fat Mama":
   * What playing position/tuning did Wade Walton use to play "Big Fat Mama"?
   * Melodically and in terms of phrasing, what other song shares the same sound as this "Big Fat Mama"?

Here is "Everybody's Blues":



Here are the questions on Archie Edwards' "Everybody's Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did Archie Edwards use to play "Everybody's Blues"?
   * At the beginning of his solo, Archie Edwards employs what device in the left hand that has been discussed elsewhere on this site?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, August 25. Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm

[Prof Scratchy]

Here are the questions on Wade Walton's "Big Fat Mama":
   * What playing position/tuning did Wade Walton use to play "Big Fat Mama"? - E standard sounding at F
   * Melodically and in terms of phrasing, what other song shares the same sound as this "Big Fat Mama"? - Mystery Train by Junior Parker. The signature riff reminds me of Big Bill Broonzy’s Stump Blues.


Here are the questions on Archie Edwards' "Everybody's Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did Archie Edwards use to play "Everybody's Blues"? - A Standard
   * At the beginning of his solo, Archie Edwards employs what device in the left hand that has been discussed elsewhere on this site? - 3 frets up and see what you find.

[blueshome]

What the Prof said. The Stump Blues reference jumped out straight away.

[David Kaatz]

Never picked up a guitar to try these, but sounds like Archie Edwards' Everybody's Blues is in A standard. No idea on the left had device question.
Not sure about Big Fat Mama. As Prof said, it does sound like Mystery Train.

[Old Man Ned]

Agree. E standard for Wade Walton and A standard for Archie Edwards. I can't say what other song shares the Wade Walton phrasing etc. Also agree with the 3 frets up device for the Archie Edwards tune.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
It has been a while since any responses were posted to the Wade Walton and Archie Edwards puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.  Here they are:

For Wade Walton's "Big Fat Mama":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning, as every responder had it--well done!
   * The phrasing of "Big Fat Mama" and it's chord progression were the same as "Mystery Train", as Prof Scratchy and others noted.

For Archie Edwards' "Everybody's Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was A position in standard tuning, as I think every responder had it
   * The left hand device utilized by Archie Edwards at the beginning of his solo was the "three frets up" in which you move a closed major chordal position up three frets, getting a "blue" sound, which is exactly as Prof Scratchy identified it in the initial response.

I like Wade Walton's brushing/strummy right hand approach behind his singing--it's a cool sound. And I don't know about you all, but I definitely find it hard to feel where the chord changes and phrase endings come in Archie Edwards' song, I can't really anticipate them. I reckon I could memorize them, but I'm conscious of not feeling them the way he did.

Thanks to all who participated, and I think this was an instance in which every response was correct. You can't do better than that! I hope folks enjoyed the songs and I'll look for some more to post soon.
All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
We haven't had any new puzzlers for a while, so I thought I would post a couple. They will be Dennis McMillon's "Woke Up One Morning" and Cecil Barfield's "Love Blues". For each tune, there will be at least one question apart from the playing position/tuning that was used to play the song. Here is "Woke Up One Morning":



The questions on Dennis Mcmillon's "Woke Up One Morning" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did Dennis McMillon fret the run he played in the tenth bar of his first solo, from :57--:59?
   * Where did Dennis McMillon fret the concluding run of his rendition, from 2:37 to the last note?

Here is Cecil Barfield's "Love Blues":



INTRO

I love my babe mama, tell the world that I do
Couldn't mistreat her, baby, to save nobody's soul

The girl that I'm lovin', mama, the one that I crave to see
The girl that I'm a-lovin', she has turned her back on me, yeah

SOLO

Run here, baby, hold me in your lovin' arm
All I ask you to do, baby, just to have me just by your side

The good girl I want, mama, she always has been my crave
Good kind woman, babe, gonna take me to my grave

SOLO

My baby's got somethin', mama, know that these boatmen crave
It's like that, somethin' get in her, mean, makes me grieve today

SOLO

Run here, mama, know your, lovin' man ain't mad with you, yeah
Wouldn't think, nobody wants you to hold me in your lovin' arm

Look over yonder, where the risin' sun done gone
The sun done gone, baby, and had you, laughing here

Bye bye, baby, girl, if you call that gone
Ain't had no lovin' baby, since my, a-rider went away

SOLO
 
 The questions on Cecil Barfield's "Love Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Describe the location of the notes that Cecil Barfield played in the treble of his solo from 1:30--1:44.
   * True or false: "Love Blues" never goes to a V chord.

Please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, September 21, and please don't use anything other than your ears and your guitar to arrive at your answers. Answer a few or all of the questions, as you wish. Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm     

[Forgetful Jones]

Great song selection.

The questions on Dennis Mcmillan's "Woke Up One Morning" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
I think he may be in Cross note tuning, down at least a step.

   * Where did Dennis McMillon fret the run he played in the tenth bar of his first solo, from :57--:59?
Open 1st string --> Slide slightly beyond 3rd fret
Open 1st --> 2nd string 3rd fret --> Open 2nd
Slide (with finger) to 4th fret of 3rd string --> 2nd fret 3rd string
Bent 3rd fret 4th string --> Open 4th string
 
   * Where did Dennis McMillon fret the concluding run of his rendition, from 2:37 to the last note?
Open --> 2nd fret  --> Open, all on 2nd string
Open 1st --> Walk down 3rd fret--> 2nd fret --> Open 2nd string
3rd fret --> 4th Fret --> Open, on 4th string
2nd fret on 5th --> Open 4th string
And finally Open ---> 2nd fret --> Open --> 3rd fret, all on 2nd string

The questions on Cecil Barfield's "Love Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
Standard tuning pitched down 3 frets or so, E minor Position (or at least not a fretted 3rd string)
   * Describe the location of the notes that Cecil Barfield played in the treble of his solo from 1:30--1:44.
Without going note for note, the whole solo is played on:
Open and Bent 3rd fret of the 2nd & 1st strings
Open, 2nd fret & 3rd fret of the 3rd string (with quick hammer-ons and pull-offs at 2nd & 3rd frets)
2nd fret of 4th string.
   * True or false: "Love Blues" never goes to a V chord.
True

"Love Blues" is one of my favorites of the George Mitchell recordings. I'm glad that I finally made an attempt to figure out what he's doing with this one. I love how he shifts from the Open 6th string to the Open 5th string throughout the song. Thank you for not asking about deciphering those lyrics!

I edited one awkwardly worded phrase to a slightly less awkwardly worded phrase.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Any other takers for the Dennis McMillon and Cecil Barfield puzzlers? Come one, come all--you don't have to answer all the questions, and can just determine the playing position/tuning for each song if you want. Figuring out the licks is just a war of attrition once you have the playing position/tuning right.
All best,
Johnm

[Prof Scratchy]

I'm going to say Vestapol for the first one, and Crossnote for the second. Haven't yet gone into the detailed lick questions, but it's true that there's no V chord in the second one.

[Lyndvs]

Denis McMillon
Vestapol
.57-.59:1st open,1st string slide 2nd-4th fret,1st string open,2nd string 3rd,2nd string open ,3rd string 3rd fret,
3rd string 1st fret,4th string slide 3rd to 4th fret,4th string open.
coda:2nd string open,2nd string 2nd fret,2nd string open,1st string open,2nd string 3rd fret,2nd string 2nd fret,2nd string open,4th string 3rd ftet bend,3rd string open,4the string open,5th string 2nd fret,4th string open,2nd string open,2nd string 2nd fret,2nd string open,2nd string 3rd fret.
Cecil Barfield
E position.
1,30-1.44:2nd string 3rd fret bend,1st string open,2nd string open,1st string 3rd fret bend,1st string open,2nd string 3rd fret bend,1st string open,2nd string 3rd fret,1st string open,2nd string 3rd fret,2nd string open,3rd string 2nd fret bend release pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret,3rd string open,3rd string 2nd fret pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret,2nd string 3rd fret,3rd string 2nd fret pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret,3rd string open,3rd string 2nd fret pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret,2nd string 3rd fret,
3rd string 2nd fret pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret,3rd string open,4th string 2nd fret,4th string 2nd fret,3rd string open*,3rd string 2nd fret^ pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret,4th string 2nd fret,3rd string open*,3rd string 2nd fret^ pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret.*pinching open 1st string?!!
Phew amazing how much can happen in 14 seconds...I often tell the wife that.
I don`t think he goes to the V.