Topic: steady thumb

[dave stott]

While attempting to play various songs, I find that my right thumb turns into an observer and watches the other fingers.

Is there some technique I can work on to improve the steadiness of my bass??

Mississippi John Hurt songs are frustrating the heck out of me..... my bass comes and goes..

Thanks

Dave
Middletown, CT

[Slack]

Using tab to learn?  Slow down, learn smaller chunks of the song at a time, repeat.

 

[a2tom]

I know exactly what you mean.  At one point I discovered almost by accident that I was dropping bass notes.  I am much better about it now, in part the solution simply being recognizing that you are doing it - so you are over half the battle!  I wish I had a better answer as to how to improve it than to say, what Slack said, and also to learn simple things first.  If there are passages that are tricky enough in the syncopation and treble, that is when my thumb will decide its easier to just sit this beat out.  But the more you can play where you CAN keep it going steady, the more your thumb will be able to just totally fall into that groove no matter what. 

I recall that MJH Satisfied and Tickled Too is the song where I first caught my thumb skipping a bass note.  It was just one note that was tricky to rock the bass down a string while syncopating the treble.  Bottom line, I still couldn't do it for a while even once I realized it, but now that my thumb is a bit steadier, and stronger, I can. 

I guess what I am saying is, play what you can for now to get that thumb steadiness down.  It's the key.  You can get fancier later.  And never underestimate how elegantly good MHJ was!

Also, do your best to hear it in your head!  The more you play, the more your fingers will make just the notes you're hearing in your head.  I wonder if anyone else ever has that sensation - that you don't really know what your fingers just did, but they made the notes you wanted to hear?

My 2 cents.

tom

[chipmonk doug]

" I wonder if anyone else ever has that sensation - that you don't really know what your fingers just did, but they made the notes you wanted to hear?"

Is there any other way to play?  I never know what my right hand is doing.  I start with the chords and just let my right hand do what it wants till it sounds the way I want it to.  Makes it hard to tell someone how I play something because I don't know.  I have to slow down and look at my hand and figure it out before I can tell them.

[dave stott]

I can read Tab and sheet music fine....it seems that whenever a difficult section of the fingering occurs, my thumb drops out of the participation.

Right now I am working on MJH's song Mermaid Flirt with Me... and as simple as the song may be, my thumb is having fits trying to maintain the steady bass.

When playing "pattern picking" to popular songs or folkie's, my thumb is fine...This syncopation is driving my crazy!!

: -)

[a2tom]

This syncopation is driving my crazy!!

that's the point - and why I wouldn't actually call Mermaids "simple as can be"!  Walking and chewing gum - it comes with time.

" I wonder if anyone else ever has that sensation - that you don't really know what your fingers just did, but they made the notes you wanted to hear?"

Is there any other way to play??

I do recall Chris Smither saying once about his video lessons that he didn't know if he could do it since he wasn't always sure what he was doing!  I must say, though, that I think being able to do that comes from having a foundation first of basic techniques, like, for instance, a steady thumb...

tom

[uncle bud]

I agree with Tom. "Mermaids" isn't that simple. Much of John Hurt's music is not simple in my opinion, though it sounds simple and is a common starting ground for people learning country blues. His bass is insistent, but that doesn't mean it's the same two boom-chuck notes over and over. He's often playing different patterns, dropping a bass note here and there, etc. And there is a lot of syncopation in the treble. Slack is right. The only way to get it is to play it really slow, to the point of being unmusical sounding, over and over and over. A lot of bass drop outs happen in pinches, I find, where the bass and an active treble melody converge and are hit together (say, for example, a bass line moving in quarter notes, and a treble line moving mostly in eighths) and the treble continues on. It's easier for the thumb to back off in those cases. Doing it really slow allows you to concentrate on keeping the bass notes in there.

I'd also agree that if you're having trouble, another thing is to try is some simpler material. One song that comes to mind is Hurt's Payday. It's in Vestapol tuning (I think around open D) and the bass is pretty rock steady all the way through on the open 6th and 4th strings as I recall. So you don't even worry about fretting the bass. You can then concentrate on the syncopated melody in the treble. It's also just a great song!

[dave stott]

thanks all, you are the greatest!!!

I am now well aware that while MJH's song may sound simple, they are by no means easy to play...

I have been able to play various other blues artists songs, but  personnaly the MJH songs seem to be the toughest because of his use of different bass patterns and his syncopation....

Eventually I'll get it down, I guess what I am asking is if people know of excercises or possibly lessons devoted to maintaining a steady thumb...

Thanks again

Dave

[Johnm]

Hi Dave,
One approach I have used in teaching that almost always seems to yield good results is this:  If you have a passage where you know you are omitting bass notes you are supposed to hit, try dropping the left hand altogether, and just playing the right hand's part.  It won't sound like much, but if you play through the right hand's part five or six times without making a mistake and then reintroduce the left hand to the mix, you will almost always find the passage easier to play.  Give it a shot and see if it helps.  Best of luck with this.
All best,
Johnm

[a2tom]

ok, here's my best exercise.  It's based on the notion that in the style you are talking about the thumb will only ever really do two things, in an extreme sense:  I use the terms pinch and roll.  Pinch means pluck at the same time as the melody/finger, and roll, as I am using it, means that the melody/finger falls between the bass notes.

So my exercise is to pick a snippet of any melody, and play it simply at first, say all pinches.  Then play the same thing, all rolls.  Don't go any farther until you can keep the bass steady in each, and really feel the different relationship of the thumb in each.  Then start mixing it up.  Play the melody once through all pinches, then - without stopping! - go to all rolls, and alternate.  Then start mixing pinches and rolls within one pass through the melody.  Then start playing some beats with a pinch and a roll (i.e. eigth notes). etc.

I did this, and in fact still do, a lot.  The goal is that your thumb will get to being comfortable picking the steady bass against all different types of relationships with the fingers picking.  As in all things, I find it helps to isolate each distinct task at first, as I've described. 

tom

[Rivers]

Thumb drop-outs used to plague my playing. Funnily enough it got better when I started trying to copy a Roy Book Binder thing. Basically in the middle of a passage he will whack the strings with it sideways for a damped percussive hit on the 2nd or 4th beat of the bar, then resume the groove.

So picking a G chord the whack occurs where you would pick the 5th string; that emphasis gives it a real pickup and bounce. Added some swing to my thing, swing to my way of thinking being an accent on the 2 and 4 of the bar.

Just working on that seemed to strengthen the neural network between brain and digit. Also physically strengthens some tiny rotational muscles in the wrist and the base of thumb I suspect; when I started I remember feeling it was so weak in that area I had to will myself to do it.

Also agree with the hints above, I do all those things when the passage differs from where my thumb wants to go. Break it down into the basics. Play it simple and really slowly then speed it up. John Jorgenson said at a workshop I went to once: "If you can't play it right slowly, how on earth are you gonna play it right fast?"

I'd also recommend Oliver Sacks' book "An Anthropologist on Mars" for some insights into the 'silent' learning process, how we subconsciously build neural networks, but I'm getting way out into left field so will now shut up and go have breakfast.

[Edit: corrected Ollie's surname, thanks Stuart]

[Stuart]

I'd also recommend Oliver Sach's book "An Anthropologist on Mars" for some insights into the 'silent' learning process, how we subconsciously build neural networks, but I'm getting way out into left field so will now shut up and go have breakfast.

Rivers:

You're not out in left field by any means. However, for Weenies who might follow up on your suggestion, a spelling correction is in order--His surname is "Sacks" not "Sach's" (please forgive me for publicly correcting your typo). And there's his website for more info:

http://www.oliversacks.com/

This belongs in "Jam Session," but I thought that I'd keep the posts together. The WC administrators can modify it as they see fit.

P.S. That's sage advice re: the steady thumb.

[onewent]

...way back when I first began to learn to fingerpick, the alt thumb was tough for me to learn, but TAB was the thing that helped me develop for the reasons that a2tom outlined, the pinch and roll concept ... playing TAB slowly helped me to keep my thumb in sync w/ the melody ... also, rivers pointed out the emphasis on the 2 & 4 beats ...  overtly stressing these two, keeps my thumb in the game, so to speak ... one exercise, if you could go so far as to call it that, is I'll play slide in open D and improvise on a simple melody like John Henry and really wail with my thumb on the 2 & 4 beats, to imprint that habit into muscle/brain or whatever happens ...