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Country Blues => Weenie Campbell Main Forum => Topic started by: Bricktown Bob on November 10, 2007, 09:40:54 AM
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Musically, yes I agree, for a start McTell starts the rap phase with a Dm position, not a C. The general lyrical idea and title are a thorough cop from McTell though. To be pedantic though ;) it's not St James Infirmary, since that is usually a minor song as well.
This probably ought to be in a new topic, since it's not about baseball blues. I suppose in general it's about sources and inspiration and such, and adapting traditional songs for current needs.
Anyway, start with an English song usually called "The Unfortunate Rake." In America, that song followed two general lines of descent. One is "The Cowboy's Lament," more popularly "The Streets of Laredo"; the other is "St James Infirmary." My point, insofar as I had one, was that, not referring to any particular performance or arrangement, "Dying Crapshooter" and "Dying Cub Fan" both belong to the St James Infirmary line: they are affines, their similarity due to descent from a common ancestor.
Interesting McTell connection. Robert W. Harwood recently came out with a book, A Rake's Progress, about the evolution of this song. Asked about the genesis of his interest, he said:
"Around 1992 a friend sent me a tape of previously unreleased Dylan songs. I found out later that these came from Columbia?s The Bootleg Series Volumes 1-3. (Should any record executives out there feel concerned, rest assured that I later bought the CD.) The song 'Blind Willie McTell' immediately caught my attention. I never tired of listening to it. Some years later I was playing a newly bought compilation CD of jazz vocals, and Lou Rawls came over the speakers singing 'St. James Infirmary.' This was the first time I?d heard 'SJI.' Rawls sings his own introduction, 'When will I ever stop moaning / When will I ever smile / My baby went away and she left me / She?ll be gone for a long, long while' and so on. He then gets into the song proper, and at this point I shot up from my chair, exclaiming aloud 'That?s "Blind Willie McTell"!!!' For some reason that I can?t explain today, I became quite excited. There was nobody else in the room. The Dylan lyrics, 'I?m standing by the window of the old St. James Hotel / and I know no one can sing the blues like Blind Willie McTell' came to mind, and that started it."
Quote taken from another good source: Rob Walker has been researching "St. James Infirmary" since 1999 and has collected thousands of pages of information about the song, along with dozens of versions: NO Notes (http://nonotes.wordpress.com/)
Some versions of "St James Infirmary" are called "Gambler's Blues" (such as Dave Van Ronk's). Bessie Smith did a song called "Dying Gambler's Blues," but I don't have it and can't find the lyrics and don't know how it relates, if at all, to either "St James Infirmary" or McTell's "Dying Gambler" (which, confusingly, is not a "St James Infirmary" variation).
Although most versions would be considered jazz, I suppose, and usually taken from Louis Armstrong or Duke Ellington or Cab Calloway, there ought to be be many that are blues.
Any takers? Any thoughts?
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Hi Bricktown Bob,
I thought your suggestion that this should be a thread of its own was a good one, so I split it off from the Baseball thread. I don't have much to add, unfortunately, except that I almost always prefer versions of this song performed by New Orleans musicians--they most often end up having that New Orleans celebratory funeral feel. I think my favorite version is Snooks Eaglins', for a sung version.
All best,
Johnm
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Robert W. Harwood recently came out with a book, A Rake's Progress, about the evolution of this song.
I think I'm gonna have to investigate that. In the 1940's song collector A.L. Lloyd spent much time documenting variants of this folksong from informants around the British Isles most of who were in their 70s-80s. These he published in Keynote Music Magazine (January 1947, p. 10-14) as a feature entitled "Background To St James's Infirmary Blues". I guess all this has now been documented by Harwood.
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hey bricktown,
i was reading what you had written about dylan's 'blind willie mctell' song, & by god! i had never realized that before. wow. what a cool tune, by the way... (he does it really good live).
& for what it's worth my two favorite versions of 'st. james' are the 1959 version by louis armstrong & his allstars (from the 'satch plays king oliver' cd) & jimmie rodgers' take of it called 'gambling bar room blues'.
-i had read somewhere some time ago, that dylan's 'not dark yet' was musically related to the memphis jug band's 'k.c. moan.' (i still can't hear that one, though.)
-chris
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Hi there
FWIW Bessie Smiths' Dying Gambler Blues can be heard on the Red Hot jazz site: http://www.redhotjazz.com/bessie.html (http://www.redhotjazz.com/bessie.html)
I'll leave it to you to decide wether or not it has any resemblance with St. James Infirmary.
Cheers
Pan
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FWIW Bessie Smiths' Dying Gambler Blues can be heard on the Red Hot jazz site: http://www.redhotjazz.com/bessie.html (http://www.redhotjazz.com/bessie.html)
I'll leave it to you to decide wether or not it has any resemblance with St. James Infirmary.
Thanks, Pan!
I'd say not. And not to McTell's "Dying Gambler," either. Ah, well.
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It's late and I think I've got the fact straight here but will correct any minor details tomorrow.
All I know is Jimmie Rodgers Gambling Bar Room Blues lyrics were written in Rodgers' own handwriting shortly before the session on the back of a piece of hotel stationery. The lyrics to St James Infirmary were scribbled on the on the front side.
Porterfield's book cites many sources as saying Ralph Peer tended to pressure Jimmie to come up with new songs, even if they weren't really new, in order to get copyright. There are photographs of the notepaper in the book.
Van Ronk's version is interesting if you know both songs as it combines both the classic St James Infirmary lyric crossed with Gambling Bar Room Blues, with melody and licks likewise copped from both.
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The Hokum Boys versions of "Gamblers Blues" are my favorate of those that I have listened too, Jimmie Rodgers does a nice adaption of the song called "Gambling Bar Room Blues" which uses a similar melody and has a few similar lyrics. I've noticed that "Dying Crap Shooters Blues" which I've heard a few versions of also has some quite similar lyrics, safe to say they are all closely related in my opinion.
edit: Just read through the topic and it seems as though im not the only one to mention the Jimmie Rodgers song, oh well still a good song :)
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Thanks, all. I'd not heard "Gambling Bar Room Blues" before. Clearly related, but also clearly, Jimmie's trying for something new (or at least different). He did a more straightforward version a couple years before called "Those Gambler's Blues," including the usual funeral arrangement section that is missing here.
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my personal favorite version of this song is done by Arlo Guthrie...
he does an great fingerpicked version and his voice suits the tune as well.
Arlo claims that he stole some of the licks from Dave Van Ronk.
Dave
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One of my favorite versions of St James Infirmary is by Josh White.
Mike
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I have sort of copy of the sheet music and it says by Jimmie Rodgers and Shelly Lee Alley...... Shelly Lee Alley now is that a person or a place ::)
It's in Dm for what thats worth.
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On the hillbilly note - listen to Arthur Smith's, Chittlin Cookin' Time in Cheatham County - one of my favorite versions!
Malcolm
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That's a great call, Malcolm! The lyrics in "Chittlin'-Cookin' Time" diverge from those of "St. James Infirmary", but the melody is spot on the same. I don't think I would have noticed that forever, despite knowing both songs for over forty years. Good one!
All best,
Johnm
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There is a great "Barroom Blues" done by the cajun band, Dixie Ramblers. (For Bluebird. recorded 8/10/35)
Perhaps this is a cover of the Jimmy Rodgers tune?
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Slideaway's performance elsewhere of this song reminded me that since this topic last saw the light of day five years ago, an entire blog plus book is devoted to the topic.
http://iwentdowntostjamesinfirmary.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2012-01-06T21:30:00-05:00&max-results=13 (http://iwentdowntostjamesinfirmary.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2012-01-06T21:30:00-05:00&max-results=13)
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And if you need more, don't forget the Smithsonian-Folkways album "The Unfortunate Rake," fortunately still available (like all of the Folkways catalog):
http://www.folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.aspx?itemid=2229 (http://www.folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.aspx?itemid=2229)
Lyle
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The revival of this thread sent me to my own collection to see what I might have that hasn't been mentioned, and I came upon Big Kid's Barroom from Mike Seeger's Early Southern Guitar Sounds, a great album if there ever was one. The liner notes have this to say:
This is very similar to a version of this old song that Jimmie Rodgers recorded in 1930, ?Those Gambler?s Blues.? His accompanist, a Hawaiian-style musician, played it in a minor key with an entirely different guitar style. Annie Lee Trivette of Fleetwood, North Carolina, sang it (with a style that I can?t entirely emulate) at the 1941 Galax Fiddler?s Convention. I was there but only eight years old and wish I could remember her. She may have used a flat pick, but I use alternating downward thumb and upward first-finger motions. Her style and my emulation, played fast with occasional accented strokes, allow for free vocal phrasing, especially useful for previously unaccompanied songs. I play the song in A major on a medium sized Galiano ladder-braced guitar, most likely made by Oscar Schmidt in the early 20th century [photo p. 10].
By the way, I'm not necessarily persuaded that the Galiano that's pictured on page 10 of the liner note booklet is an Oscar Schmidt guitar; the body shape doesn't look it to me, and it doesn't sound like it to my ears either. Perhaps Neil Harpe will weigh in.
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Hi Bricktown Bob,
I thought your suggestion that this should be a thread of its own was a good one, so I split it off from the Baseball thread. I don't have much to add, unfortunately, except that I almost always prefer versions of this song performed by New Orleans musicians--they most often end up having that New Orleans celebratory funeral feel. I think my favorite version is Snooks Eaglins', for a sung version.
All best,
Johnm
I have a dim recollection of the Snooks Eaglin version being used for a lager advert here in Britain around the mid-90s
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I have sort of copy of the sheet music and it says by Jimmie Rodgers and Shelly Lee Alley...... Shelly Lee Alley now is that a person or a place ::)
It's in Dm for what thats worth.
Shelly Lee Alley is the composer of Gambling Barroom Blues. He wrote it for his friend Jimmie Rodgers. He also wrote Traveling Blues and played fiddle along with his brother Alvin on the original 1931 Jimmie Rodgers recording. Note: Shelly Lee Alley was my dad.
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Welcome to Weenie Campbell, ShelleyLee, and thanks for clearing up the identity of Shelley Lee Alley. Were your Dad and his brother natives of Mississippi like Jimmie, or did they meet him somewhere else?
All best,
Johnm
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Seems JR's tune borrowed some lyrics from the Hokum Boys tune or they both borrowed them from elsewhere(s). As much as music was genre'fied at the time, it's fun to think of Jimmie Rodgers kicking back listening to a stack of (pristine) Paramounts. Not as fun as listening to JR sing Mean Mama Blues with Louis & Co. though.
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Hi all,
This version by the Dixie Ramblers, mentioned earlier in this thread, just came up in my youtube feed.
https://youtu.be/NKo7Psm-qvg
All best,
Johnm