Topic: Resonators

[Bluesygirl]

What do you all think about National resonator guitars for playing country blues? I had been looking seriously at expanding my collection of Taylors and thought I wanted a Martin 000-15. Then I started looking at resonators and went to the National website and fell in love with the sound of a brass-bodied single cone model (Style EN). They had a sound clip of this model being fingerpicked, which is what I'd mainly use it for (though I'd love to learn to play slide at some point too). I have never played one - what do the necks feel like? How is the nut width? What guage strings do they use? Can you bend strings on them? Bg

[Slack]

Hi BG,

National Resos are very popular for Country Blues because many original artists played them (Tampa Red, BB Fuller, Bo Carter etc etc).  The Born again Nationa Reso Company has done a great job of bringing these guitars back - they are based on the old models but with modern conveniences - like a modern neck.  Resos are excellent for slide as they have lots of sustain.  Being in the LA area - you should find several shops with a good selection of models to try out. - whcih I would definately do as resonator guitars are different beasts.

cheers,
slack

[Bluesygirl]

Is it possible to play fingerstyle - a la MJH or RGD - on a reso? Which model/type/body material is best for this? Which model is best if you mostly play fingerstyle country blues but would like the option of one day trying your hand at slide? Thanks! Bg

 

[uncle bud]

You can probably play lots of things on a reso that weren't initially done on one, although John Hurt and RGD are not the first things that come to mind. Early RGD sounds good on it IMO. Ari Eisinger has done that. John Hurt is just better on a wood guitar frankly. If you want a reso, you should listen to some of the people who played them: Blind Boy Fuller, Bo Carter, Tampa Red etc. See if you want that sound. A reso isn't necessarily for slide IMO. Fuller barely played slide (one tune out of well over a hundred) and is the classic resonator guitar player for me aside from Tampa Red.

[Slack]

BG, generally resonators are brash and loud instruments.  Generally, folks will use fingerpicks (or at least a thumbpick) to in order to drive the resonator cone sufficiently to get that loud and brash sound.  I don't know what kind of picker you are but for someone with not a lot of finger strength, or who plays softly and does not were finger picks - a resonator might not be the best choice.  That's why you need to go out and play a bunch of different ones... some are more easily driven than others.  I think you'll need to decide for yourself if they re suitable to what you want to play.

Cheers,
slack

[Richard]

The other thing you ought to bear in mind is that resonators are invariably tuned in open G or D (certainly not in standard E) with heavier strings that are needed in order to make the cone(s) work typically a first being a 15, 16 or even 17 and then upwards and in all honesty a thumb pick is the minimum you'd really want.

Go and try a few and see what you think...

I've just modified this to quickly add that, apart from the fact I own an old resonator which I play lapstyle, I am no expert on the subject so do forge your own opinions

[uncle bud]

The other thing you ought to bear in mind is that resonators are invariably tuned in open G or D (certainly not in standard E) with heavier strings that are needed in order to make the cone(s) work typically a first being a 15, 16 or even 17 and then upwards and in all honesty a thumb pick is the minimum you'd really want.

Actually, I'll respectfully disagree with this. While resonators are certainly common for slide and open tunings, there were many great players who used them in standard. The previously mentioned Blind Boy Fuller and Bo Carter stuff (though Bo certainly used alternate tunings as well) are cases in point. Memphis Minnie and Kansas Joe used Nationals at some point as well, didn't they? From today, I'd point to Paul Rishell - I don't know that I've ever seen him holding a wood guitar.

And while there are players who string up their resos with heavier guages, I think you can get away with regular mediums quite nicely, especially if you are not using it exclusively for slide. The recording I put on the Back Porch of me playing Furry Lewis's Falling Down Blues is on a resonator strung with plain old medium guage strings.

I think part of the general concept of a resonator being used for slide comes from the rediscovery of Son House and Bukka White, who were such huges forces with their Nationals and slides. And then there are more contemporary reasons for the popularity of resos for slide, like the Bob Brozman school probably convincing a lot of people they need a National if they want to slide. While Tampa Red may influence some people in their desire to have a reso for slide, I don't hear many people playing his music (a shame!).

That said, I bought my reso 'cause I thought I was gonna play slide on it. (!) And I do, but play other things too.

[blueshome]

Don't forget that all of RGD's pre-war recordings were on a National! Don't forget Petway & McClennan.

I must confess to being mainly a reso player, but there is so much b****s**** written about strings, picks, slides, what you can and can't do etc.
 I like this type of guitar because they can be played LOUD as well as soft for me this is an asset for  acoustic music.

[Bluesygirl]

Thanks everyone for your opinions and insights.  I really need to try them out to see if they're what I'm after.  I just won two tickets to see Bob Brozman next weekend at the Folk Music Center in nearby Claremont, CA, so that should give me a first good opportunity to do just that.  Bg

[Richard]

UB and Bluehome make very good points and I certainly would not disagree with either however,  the point I was trying to make (badly?) was that resonators are very different to Taylors. Whilst a Taylor may play efortlessly you need to have to 'drive' a resonator to get the best out of it.

After all, they were built orginally as amplified guitars.

[Buzz]

A number of years ago, I fulfilled a childhood dream and found a Sears mail-order 1931 National Duolian. I took workshops by Steve James: slide and old tunes fingerpicking,
Paul Rishell: old and new tunes fingerpicking,
and even from John Miller: unwund G string fingerpicking.

I agree with Uncle Bud, that medium gauge strings work just fine. Unwound G must be retuned frequently, IMHO, as easily goes flat with use and wear.

I believe it is all in the set-up of your new guitar--that's what will determine how easily you will be able to play fingerstyle or slide: the action, the elevation of the bridge saddle with resulting height of strings off the fretboard
determines the distance from the fretboard to the string, accomodating a slide or not.

I had to have a neck reset on my warped old neck when I found the National, and now it plays great both fingerstyle and slide.

I agree with Slack, you will want it for certain times and styles or tunes, but I don't think you--or I--want to play it every day and every tune. It dominates other guitars and instruments, not good for a jam. Very loud in a class situation. You would be better off using a small body wood guitar for everyday study and play, IMHO. This is the place I have found myself recently, after 8 or more Weenie Camps, hours of lessons, solo play, etc.. I will have a needed neck reset on  my old Martin D-35, then sell it, and buy an old parlor size wood guitar for comfort and sound. I play slide and some Fuller, Tampa Red, etc on the National, but prefer the mellow and soft sound of aged wood for most of my play these days. The huge body of the dreadnaught D-35 is fine for flatpicking and bluegrass, but I am into fingerstyle and older music. So it goes.

So, play a few Nationals, consider the string height for your purposes, but also try the Laravee's. I recently played a new MArtin OM Norman Blake that is fabulous, a smaller body, great 12 fret length relatively wide fretboard and neck, but oh, so beautiful a sound. $4000. Too expensive for my wallet these days. There are some less expensive ones out there that will sound great.
All for now,
Miller

[jed]

Yow, what a topic!  First:  you'll be more than overwhelmed by the Broz - he's been hawking what can be done with a National for decades, and can make anything sound pretty good on them.  Note, though,  that you're unlikely to hear quiet renditions of anything from Brozman, except perhaps from his Weisenborn (sp?).  My favorite National (brass triplate) is good for all styles, though I agree that driving the cones is critical for getting the best tone.  The answer for quieter resonator sounds with a well-driven cone would be - to some extent - a smaller guitar, such as you may find from that French maker (Fine Resophonics?) or, hopefully, from Ron Phillips in not too long.

Cheers,
Jed

PS - Medium-gauge strings are really the minimum you should have.  Bending - not too much - when you try a slide, you'll probably stick with that.

PPS - Don't forget the wooden resontaor guitars - they are really a good blend, and are more tonally responsive at lower volumes.

[mojohand]

I think it's a big misconception that resos are only good for playing slide.  And while that's what they're mainly used for and sound great for it, they can also sound very good just finger-picked.  Remember these were not created for slide originally, just to be loud so as to be heard with other instruments in aband setting. 
My Liberty sounds very warm when finger picked.  I guess it all comes down to your preferences as stated earlier.  And besides, all the greats just picked on what they could find and afford, not necessarily what was the best.

Music is in the musician, not the instrument

MH

[dabluz]

bluesygirl

if i may respond i have several brass and steel nationals and tut taylor wood resonators. i have a standard search on ebay for nationals and watch them very closely. i agree with the majority of the good imput of the others regarding the nature of  resonators and the relationship to blues. my post hopefully will provide imput on the prices you will encounter. they swing around madly without a lot of rhyme or reason. used ones fetch the same price as new routinely. sometimes they are cheaper from seller to seller but these instruments take  a lot of "setup" to play in the way and style that you want. they also don't "age" in the same fashion as a conventional guitar. they have and imoveable metal body and a wood neck. the only way for stress to relieve itself is via the neck. slide players don't care as much about this issue. the also have a cone and to get the best out of your reso these require attention and care. not the end of the world but a working knowledge is helpful. given the nature of the resale market and the potential for problems with used nationals one might be advised of the wisdom of a new one. national is very concerned with quality and customer satisfaction and you start out with neck,action andcone setup in resonalble state of affairs. you will need to look around for someone knowledgeable in reso setup as you progress to dial the instrument into your tastes of action and tone. when it comes to blues reso's are an intregal part. just like theres nothing like the sound of a thin top ladder braced parlor, there is also nothing like the sound of a well played reso. be it finger style or slide. it's very addictive. heres a sweet style onational

[jed]

Dablues has some good points about setup and care of old Nationals.  Note that we're talking about 60-70 years old!  New Nationals will - likely - not require much care for perhaps 10-20 years, provided they're already set up well and kept out of the usual temperature and humidity extremes.

At the risk of going a bit far to the technical extremes (lest we forget this is all about playing music), I'll try to address some of your original questions:

Nut width:  1 13/16".  Here's a link to nuevo National's spec page:  National specs
String guage:  At least mediums for spanish, G or open E (D) tuning.  Some slide players use 15s or even 16s on the high E (D) string - not for the timid, and only for an old National when set up by a well-experienced resophonic tech.
String bending: On Nationals, slide tends to be used for that sound, though I've watched 'em bend (not very much with medium strings, which most people feel are the minimum decent-sounding guage).  Note that there is a thread on the site concerning the unwound G string, which will further illuminate the string-bending issue.  Oh, here it is: Unwound third.

One more thing:  d, your guitar looks great.  Would you care to elaborate a bit on the unusual details?

Cheers,
Jed

[dabluz]

well the story kinda moves around by who you are talking to.  Mckenzie tells me national made three of these guitars in early 90's for the namm show. it is 24 carrat gold plated #1 of 3. the reason they made three was because they were very unsure of the plating process and how it would turn out. the "palm trees" are dull looking (for lack of a better word) and the rest is highly polished looking gold. this was accomplished with a chemical undercoating prior to plating and they did three hoping one would turn out acceptable. guess what ? all three turned out just fine so the #1 ended up at the namm show as their center piece. one of the others is in montanna and the other in LA. another source says they made 5. but i tend to rely on Mckenzie as he is one of the owners.

[outfidel]

I've been interested in new-ish wood-body Nationals for quite some time. Can someone clarify for me the differences in tone & playbility between the M2, Estralita, and Estralita Deluxe? How much does a used one in decent condition usually cost? Thanks.

[Bluesygirl]

I've recently gotten interested in getting a reso for learning slide and I like both of those myself.  I have no idea what they'd go for used though sometimes eBay has a number of resos for sale or auction at any one time. You might check there. Elderly also has some used ones sometimes too.

[Deadeye Don]

Pardon a newbie from jumping in, but I own and play several different resonator guitars and would like to throw my two cents worth...er, my advice...into the ring as it were.

I play the blues, and generally gig out and about as a folk/roots/blues singer songwriter. My resophonic guitar arsenal consists of a middle 70's Flamed Maple Dobro (made for the Dobro booth at NAMM) ("Spider" cone, wood-bodied, spanish neck model), a 2001 National Style-1 Tricone (spanish neck) and a 2002 National Estralita Deluxe Custom Shop Koa (wood-bodied single "biscuit" cone, spanish neck model). I play all three of these instruments in standard, Open G and Open D tunings using medium gauge John Pearse strings. I find them to be not really all than much harder to play then my "normal" acoustic guitars strung with light gauge strings. I also play bare fingered most of the time, though sometimes I play with a thumb pick and ocaisonally with thumb and finger picks. Some styles/sounds/effects need the very sharp attack that finger picks give you, though hard fingernails can usually do the job too.

I find the ease of playing has more to do with the instrument setup more so than the gauge of the strings, and so I'd focus my attention on getting the setup the way you want it and then sort out string gauges next. I sort of compromise on all my resophonic instruments in terms of how high the action is as I play both fingerstyle and bottle neck on each of these instruments so I choose an action height that was high enough to prevent egregious slide rattle/knocking on the neck and yet still allowed for reasonably well intonated finger playing.

One comment about the modern National guitars are that their necks are wider than most of the other makes out there so hand size in relationship to neck size may well be a factor in your choice. My Dobro is about like most acoustic guitars, both Nationals are significantly wider. My hands fit so it really doesn't matter much and the string spacing on the Nationals is good for pretty robust fingerstyle playing.

Also I would add my voice to those saying find a dealer or a shop where you can play one of these things to see how it fits you and what style/tone you like the best.

Hope this was helpful,

Don

[uncle bud]

Welcome to WC, Don. Good advice.

[waxwing]

Some good points, DD, and welcome to Weenie Campbell.

One thing I wonder, since I don't really play much slide (yet), in terms of action, if one were going to use a resonator for both picking and slide (I use them for a lot of rag blues, etc.) wouldn't it make sense to set up your guitar so that the action was as low as possible in standard, and then tune to Spanish at A or Vastapol at E, increasing the tension on the neck some and raising the action slightly, which I would think would be preferable for slide (at least a slide beginner like me). Using medium strings as you do, I don't think this would be too much for the neck, as Brozman and others recommend using much heavier strings on resonators. If you are tuning down to G or D doesn't that mean that your action is higher than it need be in standard or you'd get too slack while playing slide? I don't mean to point this at you, Don, just throwing it out for discussion.

All for now.
John C.

[Deadeye Don]

Some good points, DD, and welcome to Weenie Campbell.

One thing I wonder, since I don't really play much slide (yet), in terms of action, if one were going to use a resonator for both picking and slide (I use them for a lot of rag blues, etc.) wouldn't it make sense to set up your guitar so that the action was as low as possible in standard, and then tune to Spanish at A or Vastapol at E, increasing the tension on the neck some and raising the action slightly, which I would think would be preferable for slide (at least a slide beginner like me). Using medium strings as you do, I don't think this would be too much for the neck, as Brozman and others recommend using much heavier strings on resonators. If you are tuning down to G or D doesn't that mean that your action is higher than it need be in standard or you'd get too slack while playing slide? I don't mean to point this at you, Don, just throwing it out for discussion.

All for now.
John C.

Thanks for the welcome.

That's an interesting question and I'd be interested in what other folks have to say about it. But I will provide my experience, noting that I in no way assume it is a universal experience, with tunings and action height.

On my Nationals (which are recent instruments versus vintage instruments - they have truss rods, etc.) I can't say I've noticed much difference in action height whether I'm in Open D, Open G, Standard or in one of the tunings where some of the strings go UP from standard pitch. Now to be honest, I really haven't been watching for a difference, but I certainly haven't felt a difference while playing fingerstyle or slide.

What I have noticed is that if you are playing slide, getting the 1st string (the high E) up in gauge size makes a significant difference in tone, sustain and (to my way of thinking) playability for slide playing. Brozman is very vocal about using heavier gauges on the E string to improve slide playing. I tend to go with a .015 on the E for my compromise setup between slide and fingerstyle on the same guitar. Some folks go larger. I've contemplated taking my tricone string gauges up to borderline heavy all the way across and then reserving that instrument for slide work but I haven't tried it yet.


Don

[outfidel]

a 2002 National Estralita Deluxe Custom Shop Koa (wood-bodied single "biscuit" cone, spanish neck model).

Hey Don - Welcome aboard & thanks for the info! On the Estralita, does the koa make a significant difference in tone compared to maple? Since the woods are laminated, I wonder if the change in tonewoods make as a big a difference as it does on solid wood flattop guitars. The koa certainly looks sweet!

[Deadeye Don]

Hey Don - Welcome aboard & thanks for the info! On the Estralita, does the koa make a significant difference in tone compared to maple? Since the woods are laminated, I wonder if the change in tonewoods make as a big a difference as it does on solid wood flattop guitars. The koa certainly looks sweet!

Thanks for the welcome.

Well, I have had the good fortune to have a friend that has just the older "regular" Estralita (Walnut sides and back) and another friend that has an Estralita Deluxe (sunburst finish, and again, Walnut sides and back, I believe) and having played their instruments along with mine I think the Koa does mellow the tone just a bit more than the other woods.

I know we are talking laminates, but my Maple Dobro sounds different from some Mahogony dobros I've played (and obviosuly different from the estralita(s) since the dobros being compared are spider coned instruments) and the Koa Estralita Deluxe sounds different from the other Estralitas,  so I have to believe the wood at least makes up one of the components of a resophonic instrument's sound. My experience also has the National M2 sounding different than the Estralita(s) so again I think wood plays a part.

Don

[jameshuckle]

I recently bought a cheap biscuit bridge resonator to try out metal body slide sound. I find the way it rattle, farts and pops gives me sound i'm after; I'm not after a refined sound, I want what I think would be sound of the juke. The string setup is quite low so i can play quieter finger style or brash cone-driving sound with metal finger picks.

On the points of guitar actions, I have setup all my other acoutsic guitars with a low actions and ligt strings so when i want to play slide on one of them all i do is loosen the strings and nut then shim the nut up with either matchsticks or bridge shim (depending on the guitar action). Its pretty quick and i've done it under pressure whilst gigging - just   

[dave stott]

Has anyone tried out the Regal Resonators??

I am considering the RC-2 duolian.... priced at $499 via musicians friend, it almost seems too cheap....

I can not afford a National and am looking for an entry level resonator to play Blind Boy Fuller tunes....

[David]

I play mainly slide blues, using finger picks, and have a wooden bodied Dean biscuit bridge resonator with built in lipstick pick ups.  My point in this is that I don't have a National, but I know they are considered the standard by most who play this style of blues.  I've often wondered if this was more a function of the price and snob appeal.

BUT, the Nationals, and resonators in general, are much more versatile than just slide blues playing.

I would suggest anyone considering a resonator of any kind get the "National Resophonic Instrumental Project CD."  It is a sampler, of sorts, with various artists playing instrumental pieces on different models of National guitars.  Only of few of these are slide.  Some are jazz, some more bluegrass, some folk.  The idea was to be able to hear what each model sounds like.

The CD is relatively inexpensive and available through the National web site, and often on Ebay used.  It will also give you a good idea of what the variety of sounds are from wood to metal body, biscuit and spider bridge and tri-cone.  Its also some really great playing!

(Also, did anybody mention Son House playing a National?  Or Bukka White?)

[LB]

Great Posts!

Bluesygirl, my search in the short term has ending with a Tricone mainly because I am after the style of Tampa Red and he played one. I am nailing the tone to the tee compared to the old recordings and in my opinion there are some qualities about the steel bodies that have caught my ear in a good way. People rate the brass as the warmest body and the powder coated steel in the middle then there is the new nickel plated steel bodies that sound a fraction brighter than the powder coated steels. Choosing tricone or single cone biscuit, or single cone spider is a personal choice and it seems you can play anything on either but in the trend of players from the past the single cone is more quick and percussive with less sustain compared to the tricone and seems to work great for ragtime, rhythm etc, standard tunings. The tricone seems to be favored for slide even though this is not a rule by any means. It just has a slightly slower attack and less quick to pop you instantly and by this shortcoming it has more sustain. This is because the vibrations have a short micro delay going from your bridge through the arm and tricones vs the much simpler and more direct single cone. I have been reading and learning about these things for a few years and every year when I see Steve James, Brozman and several other folks I pick their brain. They say the type of finish doesn't matter with the tone but that's not true. The thicker and textured new power coat slightly mellows the tone on the steel body versions. I could even pick out the two over the telephone in the blind. I think the only choices are personal. The new reso-rocket is also something that looks interesting with it's cutaway.

You can also buy some cheaper brands but to be honest I think I would waste less money and be happier in the long run with the new nationals. The quality of these is surprisingly good from the fretwork, binding, nut and every aspect. Seems almost all nationals sell at about 70% of MSRP list no matter what dealer but if you call ArtisanGuitars.com and tell Bill I sent you he will do you special.

Good photos and a cool set of sound clips for different body materials
http://www.vintagenationals.com/

4 part National History
http://www.nationalguitars.com/part1.html

Collectors info, model breakdowns, history for old ones
http://www.provide.net/~cfh/national.html

EXCELLENT READING of Brozmans opinions on all the cones, bodies, finishes, tones.
http://www.bobbrozman.com/national.html

[longboardsurfing]

I have a National M2 single cone mahogany body that I find very versatile. It does everything I ask it fingerstyle blues with or without picks and great with a slide. This is the type of guitar Doug Macleod, Steve James and Mike Dowling use. James and Dowling however use vintage El Trovadors from the '30s, which also have mahogany bodies.

By the way, Bob Brozman is doing a workshop at the Folk Music center in Claremont California Sunday Jan 22,2006.
 http://www.folkmusiccenter.org/calendar.html
Tel: 909-624-2928 folkmusic.center@verizon.net

[outfidel]

FYI National has recently reissued the El Trovador -- all mahogany, slotted headstock -- check out the National web site