Topic: Guitar in Jug Band Dilemma

[waxwing]

Uncle Bud made a good suggestion on the Back Porch that we should look to the Memphis Jug Band for some great material. And, of course, I agree, but it brings up a certain dilemma for me: I really don't want to let the guitar be relegated to just a "boom-chick" rhythm instrument playing bass runs in unison with the jug. Listening to the recording I posted of Meat Shakin' Woman, I really like the interplay and, as I said, the tonality of the Style O and the cigar box mando. It works even better on Mississippi Blues, where Miller has worked out (and we continue to work on) a very complex mando part, with lead breaks and comp backing. It sounds great and I can't wait to add jug, kazoo, harp and washboard to the mix. But I don't really want to add a lot of treble string instruments and lose the guitar. 'Course if Suzy T wants to step in and pull some bow, yahoo, I'm all for it! And being the basis for a larger jam at PT is great, too, but I'm trying to keep my own vision of the sound I want to create for performance and recording.

In thinking about working on some jug band standards, from the MJB or Cannon's Jug Stompers, or others, I guess I will have to challenge myself to create more interesting guitar arrangements. This is pretty much opening a new area for me ("and about time," I hear some of my most supportive mentors saying). I feel somewhat daunted by needing to create new material for a whole band, especially when just learning a tough arrangement on the guitar well enough to sing over it (not to mention play the jug), especially now that I transcribe for myself, takes me a couple months. I don't know if I can keep these guys satisfied with a new song every couple of months.

So to start, I'm looking thru my repertoire for songs that are readily transferable. I play several Fuller tunes and some of them work great. Canned Heat might work well. Buddy Moss' New Lovin' Blues, too. Mississippi Blues will continue to grow with Mike. So I feel like we have material to work on 'til I get some new arrangements up to speed.

One we've started working on already is "Stealin'", which Miller already performs on mando, so all I have to do is create a good guitar arrangement and add jug. I really like Miller's voice too, and how it contrasts with mine, so I hope I can work up some good arrangements for other songs he sings soon. Of course, I think Mike will add a voice to the sound as well.

In the long run, I know each person has more to offer on other instruments so I want to mix things up instrumentally as well. But I guess my vision is to keep the stringed instrument interplay fairly sparse, so that the guitar arrangements are still a part of the sound, and that will be a challenge for me. 'Course the Style O helps.-G-

Well, any thoughts, ideas, suggestions?

All for now.
John C.

[GhostRider]

Hey BJ:

Agreeing with Unkie Bud is always hazardous...

One Memphis Jug Band  tune that I think you guys could do is Kanasas City Blues. In the original there's lots of instrumental verses (more than half the tune). In the original a harmonica takes most of the melodic leads, but I'll bet that you can transpose some of this to guitar. And of course you have all the other recorded versions of KC Blues to steal ideas from

The downside is there are some kazoo breaks and with Young Dr.
Millar in the band, that's dangerous.

Other ideas that could be guitar-centric are Tampa Red's Dead Cats on the Line, the recently analysed Ain't Givin Nobody None (especially if you have a female in the band)-gives you a chance to pull out the 12.  And how 'bout I Got Mine or Chicken's Roost Behind the Moon by Frank Stokes-these would be fabulous in a jug band setting.

Alex

[uncle bud]

Let it go... Be one with the jug...

I think your concern about the guitar being relegated to a boom-chick background is partly understandable but why not lay off the guitar in some tunes? Let mandos, harps, kazoos and jugs carry things. Plus I think there are ways that guitar backing can still be interesting without being overbearing. I'm thinking of Walter Vinson's playing with the Mississippi Sheiks, for example. Play something in Eb using his chordal style accompaniment. That'll keep you on your toes. Or I'm thinking of Frank Stokes' playing. Not super elaborate but still very fun. Plus you can't beat some supreme, in the zone boom-chick backup in my opinion. Gives you a chance to focus on singing too. I think too many songs with too many "lead" instruments will get aurally overwhelming pretty quickly.

You could lean to slightly jazzier material like Charlie Burse and His Memphis Mudcats. Do some fast chord changes.

Something like You May Leave But This Will Bring You Back could accomodate a bit more guitar, and is a great Memphis Jug Band tune done under the name the Carolina Peanut Boys. Great mando, harp, harmony singing. Everybody's Talking About Sadie Green would fun too.

I think you should do Sister Maud Mule. Great mando part for Miller. Harp would be a natural. No jug in the original recording by Alec Johnson but you can hear how it would totally work.

[a2tom]

my fairly uninformed opinion is that I like the sound of the jug and/or string bands where the guitar was more simple, boom-chicky.  It is different, but works in the context of the more complex sound built from more instruments and voice.  I also wouldn't necessarily think it is easy, as you need to be relentless in your rhythm, etc.  All that said, you should play what pleases you - I'm not trying to talk you into becoming a boom chicker.

tom

[Slack]

Even though it is hazardous, I agree with UB and Atom2 --- there ain't nothing wrong with rhythm guitar --- in fact, some would argue that is where it is at.  Playing rhythm (and spicing it up in ways UB suggests) would allow you to more easily adopt new songs and concentrate more on your vocals.  Singing lead on top of a finger picked arrangment, playing jug, arranging the parts --- is a big chunk to chew off.

...and don't forget about working in a few antics --- playing behind your back, playing Millers kazoo, while he plays Billos washboard, while Miller chords your guitar. 

[a2tom]

my mother told me never to play anyone else's kazoo, and I'm going to stick with that advice...

tom

[Mike Billo]

...and don't forget about working in a few antics --- playing behind your back, playing Millers kazoo, while he plays Billos washboard, while Miller chords your guitar. 

     Great idea, Slack!
     Leaving me free to tap dance, yodel, make balloon animals and play the Musical saw, bringing about a level of sophistication reminiscent of the Algonquin Round Table

[waxwing]

The Algonquin Round Table? HA!

Lots of good suggestions here. Thanks, and keep it up!

I'm really just opening up my thinking process to you guys and certainly don't mean to diss rhythm guitar playing or any style in particular. I guess I'm looking at this differently than I have my solo playing, which has been mostly very faithful renditions with as much of my own honesty as I could get into the form. I'm looking at this jug band thing as a time to create my own, or 'our' own, really, style. Perhaps a recognizable sound.

And when I say "I really don't want to let the guitar be relegated to just a "boom-chick" rhythm instrument playing bass runs" I think I'm referring more to some sort of self limitations that I'm feeling, like, well, this is all I'm really coming up with at this point and I don't think it's very interesting.

But you guys have made me look at a few things differently. I mentioned  Canned Heat as a possible number that I currently play that would translate well. The more I thought about it, the more I thought, yeah, it has a lot of good elements for a backing to a jug band. I attached an mp3 of the guitar part, as I play it, anyway, so you can give a listen. Really it's practically all brushes except for the IV chord and you could easily do it with a flat pick. It has a great little signature lick with a rhythm that everybody can grab onto. It uses bass runs a lot to lead into the chord changes, and it makes a simple harmonic statement in the treble in each chord, which is nice because it gives room for the jug to hold down the bass on its own and also will give a little guidance, or contrast, to the  other player's breaks I don't think it's overbearing or calls too much attention to itself unless you want it to, but you can back it off and play under someone else's break without any trouble. 

Uncle Bud mentioned Walter Vincson and I couldn't agree more (despite the hazards). That made me realize that Tommy Johnson and Walter certainly share a lot of elements in their playing, whichever direction it came from, and this led me to think about the true nature of a lot of the guitar arrangements we know that were recorded as solo performances. If anyone has read Big Road Blues, by David Evans, you might remember that he recorded an awful lot of guys in the '60s still playing pretty similar versions of Tommy's great tune. And in many cases they were playing them in small combos. Another thing I thought about was how many of the Delta players, TJ, Patton, House, Brown and others, played a lot of similar arrangements. We always say that they stole from each other, but I'm not sure it was about stealing solo guitar arrangements as much as it was playing with a lot of the same musicians who would know each others arrangements.

"Oh, you play that like Charlie does Moon Goin' Down? Well sure, I can do the 'down the staff' part"

or

"I do this one like Tommy's Maggie Campbell, do you know a mando part for that?" "Sure!" "Alright, let's do it"

I think a lot of these arrangements might have been created just as much to be backings for string or jug bands as to be solo backings. Maybe because the A & R guys wanted solo recordings that's how we've come to think of them.

So, I'm not saying every solo song I play is going to translate to a jug band, nor am I saying that I'm not going to try to create my own guitar arrangements. I'm saying that a lot of my solo stuff can work, perhaps with a little transformative rhythm change or whatever, and I'm saying that I need to think about creating arrangements like Canned Heat. Find a good rhythmic signature lick and a harmonic statement for each chord, with some bass runs into the changes, and see what gels. I'm sure there are lot's of other examples in other keys. And in other styles.

Wow, this is exciting. Thanks for all your help in this broadening of my horizons.

All for now.
John C.

[uncle bud]

I agree Canned Heat would probably work as a jug band piece easily. One thing I'd ask though is why translate any of your solo repertoire to jug band, beyond one or two songs to get you guys started, which you've already done? You'll have nothing left to play solo, plus you'll be playing the same songs. I'd look for new material myself. There's a huge amount of stuff I would be dying to play in a jug/string band context that isn't solo guitar music, but great stuff from Memphis Jug Band, Cannon's Jug Stompers, innumerable other jug bands, Sleepy John Estes and the Delta Boys, Dallas String Band, Peg Leg Howell and his Gang, Mississippi Sheiks, Georgia Cotton Pickers, Tampa Red...on and on.  Find some great tunes nobody plays, rather than doing guitar tunes everybody plays.

Tear It Down, by King David's Jug Band. Another great one...

[waxwing]

I'm right with you, UB. But I just have a lot of time constraints right now. I'm working a lot more (argh), beginning to record a (mostly) solo Cd which I'm trying to use primarily songs I've transcribed myself on, playing out a bit more, and we're still only about half moved into this house. Yet, I'm sorta swept up with this jug band spirit and don't want to hold back the flow while I work out new arrangements. It still doesn't come that quickly for me.

But long term, absolutely, I want to do a lot of the great jug band material that's out there. Yeah, I was thinking Sleepy John and Peg Leg. John M has given us such an insight into their music lately. And yeah, to work up the most songs quickly I could "just" strum the chords and develop my virtually absent rhythm guitar technique and let the other guys work their leads on top of it. But somehow I see the whole mix as more of an assembly of parts, everybody holding down the rhythm at times and soloing at other times, lots of call and response, with a lot more openness, which I often hear getting muddied up by the chunk-a-chunk of a strummed guitar, even in some of the best of those bands you mentioned (and even tho' they obviously have the guitar about as far from the mic as possible at times). The ones that really move me have guitar parts like Canned Heat, that move around, open up and allow space for the other instruments and lead the "feel" from chord to chord. I think that when I approach the jug band material, I want to give it that style, regardless of how the original was played.

Maybe I'm setting the bar high for myself, but I guess that's what keeps me so fanatical about this music. Keep these ideas coming, please.

All for now.
Johhn C.

[GhostRider]

Hey:

Ya, Don't Sell It would be terrific and very guitar-cedntric. BJ, I sent you the TAB for DSIDGIA last year.

Great choice, Cheapfeet.

Alex

[Johnm]

Hi John C.,
I don't really have repertoire to suggest.  I just wanted to speak in favor of exploring some flat-picking in your "guitar in the jug band" role.  There's a way that that kind of picking help makes the time happen in the ensemble that is very hard to achieve with fingers, I think.  Another advantage to it, I think, is that in a jug band, everything that happens in the low end, instrumentally, tends to be a bit mushy and ill-defined (thinking of the jug and washtub bass),and with a flat-picked guitar, you can get the bass end of the ensemble sounding a lot crisper, which clarifies the sound and can also make the time less swimmy. The pick can help with projection, too, something which is important when playing with a mandolin, kazoo, jug, washboard, harmonica, et al.  Finally, flat-picking in this context is a skill that is currently in very short supply among the present-day crop of Country blues players that I've heard.  It never hurts to build a skill that other people lack.
All best,
Johnm

[crawley]

I'll tell you what. Do both kinds of playing. Don't bother with a flatpick. Just play clawhammer style. Use your thumb to hit the bass strings and brush down with your fingernails for the 'chick'. When you get it down, it's almost as loud as a pick, but sounds and feels more old-timey. And when you feel like throwing in a lick or turnaround, do as you would fingerstyle. When I play with my wife we usually play jug band style stuff just to keep it simple. We'll do K.c. Moan, German Blues and Done Wrong Blues. Even though I play raggy type stuff by myself, I automatically play the rhythm guitar with another person. I've been playing this way along time now(I use to play in a rock band with another guitar player). It's easier for me to sing while playing in this fashion, too. In this style it's more important, imo, to get the groove on and focus on the singing. I can actually get all of the rhythms and beats that I can normally get playing Patton, Tommy Johnson and Blake, naturally playing this way. I learned this way from listening to Peg Leg, Henry Thomas, Jim Jackson, etc. This may not be how they played, but that's how I learned to play their stuff. A lot of what they played solo was just rhythm accompaniment.

Boom(thumb), Chick(downstroke with fingernails)

I for one would love the chance to JUST play boom-chick.

Try it out, you'll like it.
-Gabriel

[cmr]

Waxwing

If you want a temporary replacement boom-chicker, let me know.  I might be capable of playing a simple boom-chick by late July.  Cheers, Charlie

[Chun]

Waxwing...Keep it simple. Ive been through all this. Work on your flat picking with an emphasis on bass runs. Although JBM is not really a guitar centric sound... What Ive found that works best is if you develop a style less complicated than your solo playing, but a little more tricky than the simple boom chick. I just "rag out" simple chords and have created some sort of signature licks that fit well in the various chords. Kenny Sultan showed me this. Ive found another great effect is on the resonator guitar, when making bass runs...use heavy emphasis on the runs and play down near the bridge on those runs. It shouldnt be too tricky ..this will get lost ion all the other noise going on and make it almost too chotic. chaos is good to a popint in JBM but not too much. If you guys ever perform...you can do a country blues solo song and satisfy your crave that wa while the other fellas get a beverage. Also...try a banjo/guitar..that works well too. Keep it simple. Sounds like fun. Id like to see you guys if Im ever in the area.
Christian