Topic: Mississippi Blacksnakes Lyrics

[mr mando]

Hi,
I'm looking for help with the lyrics to a song by Charlie McCoy and Walter Vinson. They recorded it as the Mississippi Blacksnakes in Chicago on 17 January 1931 and the title is "Grind So Fine". I got it on a Document's RST Blues Document series CD called Mississippi String Bands & Associates (BDCD-6013).



Grind So Fine

Way down in Mississippi there?s a little town on the hill
Where the men all ?.. the women doin? the ?.. mill
Because I grind so fine, yes I grind so fine
Everybody?s bound to love it because I grind so fine

When I get to grinding the woman all holler
Cause my grinding running just as little as a dollar
Because I grind so fine, ooh I grind so fine
Everybody?s bound to love it because I grind so fine

Now all the once trained women won?t try that with you
?.. when you?re a two
Because I grind so fine, ooh I grind so fine
Everybody?s bound to love it because I grind so fine

Now listen here woman I?m gonna tell you the fact
You don?t like my grinding you can get your dollars all back
Because I grind so fine, ooh I grind so fine
Everybody?s bound to love it because I grind so fine

I got the ?? just to help me out
?? so much grinding to wear my grinder out
Because I grind so fine, ooh I grind so fine
Everybody?s bound to love it because I grind so fine

Any help with the missing spots would be much appreciated!

[mr mando]

Now that's amazing: I posted this just before I finished work and turned the computer off. Just got home half an hour ago and already I got two e-mails from frankie, containing the following information:

I've been slowly working through the lyrics for the MS Sheiks splinter groups...  can't quite get that third verse (I think he might be messing it up, himself), but here's what I have.  Incidentally, I'm not sure what the personnel is listed as on the CD, but on this particular track, I'm nearly certain that it's Bo Carter singing and playing guitar, Charlie McCoy accompanying on mandolin.  It also sounds like the playback is a little fast...  could be a problem either with the original 78 or the transfer to digital, I guess.  Key sounds like B-flat to me, but I haven't sat down and checked yet.  Hope this helps...

Grind So Fine

Way down in Mississippi there's a little town on the hill
Where the men all send their women to the grist mill
Because I grind so fine, yes I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

When I get to grinding the woman all holler
Cause my grinding running just as level as a dollar
Because I grind so fine, ooh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

Now all I want [strange] women, [one try that with you]
I don't want your [] tearing a grinder in two
Because I grind so fine, oh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

Spoken:  Oh, play it Mr. Grinder.  Miss Mary, Lord.

Now listen here woman I'm gonna tell you the fact
You don't like my grinding you can get your [toll] all back
Because I grind so fine, oh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

I got to hire the helper just to help me out
Getting so much grinding goin' wear my grinder out
Because I grind so fine, oh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

f

[mr mando]

frankie, thanks for the help so far! I checked the personnel on the BDCD-6013 CD again, McCoy and Vinson are given. I'm not good with identifying voices, but the guitar style sounds a lot like Walter Vinson and not so much like the Bo Carter tunes I know. I checked the recording's pitch too, it sounds at approximately C# (if my mandolin was in tune). I seem to recognize C shapes in McCoys mandolin playing. The lowest note he hits seems to be a C on the 5th fret of the G string, but if the tune was indeed in Bflat, this would be the 3rd fret. Is it likely that the recording plays back at 3 semitones too fast?? There's a triplet played on the mandolin before the word "everybody" which sounds like 0-3-0 on the A string and not like D string 5th fret-A string 1st fret-D string 5th fret, but it's hard to tell with the lacking sustain of the mando-banjo or maybe resonator banjo he seems to use. A further point for the key of C would be the guitar accompaniment which seems to use regular first position C shapes with an alternating bass on strings 5 and 6, 3rd fret.

After repeated listening, I think your transcription of the first and fifth verses as well as the spoken asides is correct. I'm not yet convinced with the words "level" in verse two and "toll" in verse four. Verse three would make sense with the transcription below, what do you think??


Grind So Fine

Way down in Mississippi there's a little town on the hill
Where the men all send their women to the grist mill
Because I grind so fine, oooh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

When I get to grinding the woman all holler
Cause my grinding running just as [little] as a dollar
Because I grind so fine, ooh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

Now all I want is strange women, won't try that with you
I don't want your grain to tear my grinder in two
Because I grind so fine, oh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

Spoken:  Oh, play it Mr. Grinder.  Miss Mary, Lord.

Now listen here woman I'm gonna tell you the fact
You don't like my grinding you can get your [dollar] all back
Because I grind so fine, oh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

I got to hire the helper just to help me out
Getting so much grinding goin' wear my grinder out
Because I grind so fine, oh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

[frankie]

I'm not good with identifying voices, but the guitar style sounds a lot like Walter Vinson and not so much like the Bo Carter tunes I know.

Compare it to songs like She?s Your Cook But She Burns My Bread Sometime, Times Is Tight, Baby How Can It Be...  Walter, Bo and Sam could all pay backup in a remarkably similar way.  Bo tends to make chord choices that are a little fancier than Walter or Sam, though, like the G flat after the E-flat chord, or the F7 as the V7 chord.

Is it likely that the recording plays back at 3 semitones too fast??

I agree that the pitch is a little high, but if they're tuned a little sharp (as Bo seems to be on occasion) it wouldn't take much of a speed change to move the pitch to C sharp.  The singing sounds much more like Bo than Walter or Charlie.

There's a triplet played on the mandolin before the word "everybody" which sounds like 0-3-0 on the A string and not like D string 5th fret-A string 1st fret-D string 5th fret, but it's hard to tell with the lacking sustain of the mando-banjo or maybe resonator banjo he seems to use. A further point for the key of C would be the guitar accompaniment which seems to use regular first position C shapes with an alternating bass on strings 5 and 6, 3rd fret.

I haven't had an opportunity to play around with the mandolin, but for the I chord, the lowest guitar bass note is the tonic - I didn't hear a single instance where the fifth below the tonic was used for the bass over the I chord.  The other bass notes he uses over the I are the fifth above tonic and the octave - consistent with the F shape at the 6th fret that Bo, Walter and Sam all used as the I chord in key of B flat.  There's also a slide from the root of the V chord to the tonic of the I (on the sixth string) that's also very typical of their playing in B flat.  The IV chord sounds like a C shape moved up three frets with the 3rd string ringing open - a typical giveaway for the key of B flat.  The II chord is a 1st position C7 and the V7 is an F7, the use of which is kind of peculiar to Bo (when comparing the backup styles of Bo, Walter and Sam).

Verse three would make sense with the transcription below, what do you think??

It would make more sense, but I just don't hear it - if I had to sing something, it'd probably be something like that, though!

Regarding "level" and "toll" - that's what I hear...  I'd prefer to hear "corn" instead of "toll," but there's definitely a long "O" sound in there that would make for a very strange pronunciation of "dollar."

Nice tune, though - the little tag turnaround between the verses is cute!  If it had cheeks, I'd probably want to pinch one... 

[dj]

I'd prefer to hear "corn" instead of "toll," but there's definitely a long "O" sound in there...

I think that's exactly what you do hear.  Pronounced something like "gitcha cone awl back", with the c swallowed a bit.

[uncle bud]

I think this is definitely Bo singing, and I think Frankie's right about the guitar part being characteristic of the positions Walter Vinson, Sam and Bo use fairly frequently out of Bb. I don't hear it as a C position part. It's got that odd closed position sound they get to me. Some comments about the lyrics.

In V 2.2 I am hearing "level as a dollar" too. "Little as a dollar" certainly makes sense if the image is Bo selling his grinding talents, but "level as a dollar" could simply mean, er, really fine grinding. 

V 3.2 I am hearing something like "I don't want your [trailer] tear my grinder in two" or "I don't want your [tray] to tear my grinder in two". What does that mean? Damned if I know. Not hearing "grain" myself. Anyone familiar with 1920s corn grinding processes? 

V 4.2 I am hearing "toll" like Frankie. Not hearing "corn" or "dollar". "Corn" would certainly make some sense though.

V 5.1 "I got to hire ME A helper just to help me out"

Fun tune.

[banjochris]

I'll have to listen to this more closely when I get home from work and can crank it up a bit, but it definitely sounds like Bo (sped up some) to me.

Also, I'm pretty sure it is in B-flat, because some of the turnarounds at the end of the verse are the same as "Jackson Stomp"/"Lonesome Train," which are both in that key.
Chris

[banjochris]

I agree with Uncle Bud on the "level" and "toll". In my previous post, to clarify, I meant the turnarounds on the mandolin, not the guitar.

When you slow the tune down a little bit, it's definitely Bo Carter singing.

Also, the third verse starts:

Now all I want, strange women, one try there with you,
I'll win your trade or tear my grinder in two,


Chris

[frankie]

Now all I want, strange women, one try there with you,
I'll win your trade or tear my grinder in two,

Nice!

[mr mando]

Thanks for all your help! Here's the consensus distilled from the posts above plus one change in 1.2 from grist mill to GRIT mill, as I don't hear the S anymore:

Grind So Fine

Way down in Mississippi there's a little town on the hill
Where the men all send their women to the grit mill
Because I grind so fine, oh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

When I get to grinding the woman all holler
Cause my grinding running just as level as a dollar
Because I grind so fine, oh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

Now all I want, strange women, one try there with you
I?ll win your trade or tear my grinder in two
Because I grind so fine, oh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

Spoken:  Oh, play it Mr. Grinder.  Miss Mary, Lord.

Now listen here woman I'm gonna tell you the fact
You don't like my grinding you can get your toll all back
Because I grind so fine, oh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

I got to hire me a helper just to help me out
Getting so much grinding goin' wear my grinder out
Because I grind so fine, oh I grind so fine
Everybody's bound to love it because I grind so fine

As for the guitar/mandolin positions, I'm not convinced that this is in Bb. I was hearing it in C and now that I have listened to it slowed down, I'm even more certain. Not that I'm completely sure , but here are the three main points that make me think it's in C:

1. In bar 5 of the guitar accompaniment behind the mandolin solo, I'm hearing a muffled low tonic of the IV chord as bass note on beat 1 and a movement from high minor third to high major third as bass notes on beat 3. The low tonic of the IV chord would be an Eb and below the 6th string, hence not available. To me, this is the sound of a "wrap-around" F chord with thumb on the 6th string and a partial barre of the three high strings. The -3/+3 movement on beat three would be possible with an Eb chord in C position, but is certainly way more common with an F chord in F position.

2. In bar 3 of the mandolin solo, I hear a double stop on beat 3 right after the tremoloed note, that to my ear consits of tonic and major third. If this was in Bb, the fingering would have to be 8th fret on the D string and 5th fret on the A string. Of course not impossible, but the melody right before that tremolo suggests a fingering (in Bb) leading down on the 1st string from the 6th to 5th to 4th to 3rd to 1st fret then on the 2nd string 4th & 3rd frets, then 5th fret on 3rd string and 1st fret on 2nd string for the tremoloed note. Landing an the 8th fret 3rd string for the tremoloed note would need a different and very uncommon fingering. In C, the double stop would be 3rd fet/2nd string and open 1st string and would the natural consequence of the tremoloed note and the melody that precedes it.

3. I was trying to identify the highest notes in the strummed chords on beats 2 and 4 of the guitar accompaniment. For the I chord I hear a high fifth ringing, suggesting the following voicing in C: x-3-2-0-1-3. The bass would alternate between strings 5 and 3. For the IV and V chords, I hear a high tonic, so I'm lead to think that Bo Carter played simple F position F and G chords.


I would be very interested if anybody is hearing something different, especially in the guitar accompaniment behind the mandolin solo.

[banjochris]

The guitar part sounds to me like it's in Bb. It's essentially the same accompaniment as Bo plays in "My Pencil Won't Write No More," complete with the change to the Gb from the Eb chord. On the I chord you can hear him sliding up on the 6th string into the F-shaped Bb. He's playing the Eb in C position -- 6-6-5-0-4-6, rocking from the 4th to 5th fret on the fourth string during the break. You can also hear the low fifth of the Eb chord during the break, which wouldn't be possible with an F-shaped chord.

I'm also hearing that (very brief) double stop as tonic and fifth, not major third, which would be a bar of the Bb-F at the first fret of the 1st and 2nd string on the mando.
Chris

[frankie]

I totally agree with Chris's analysis of the guitar part, but thought you guys might appreciate my take on this particular mandolin moment:

2. In bar 3 of the mandolin solo, I hear a double stop on beat 3 right after the tremoloed note, that to my ear consits of tonic and major third. If this was in Bb, the fingering would have to be 8th fret on the D string and 5th fret on the A string.

I'm also hearing that (very brief) double stop as tonic and fifth, not major third, which would be a bar of the Bb-F at the first fret of the 1st and 2nd string on the mando.

Mr. Mando - you're correct in that the pitches involved in that double-stop include the major 3rd above the tonic.  It also includes the major 3rd below the tonic as well.  If you listen to the little turnaround lick, it's pretty clear that McCoy is using octave strings on the bass courses of the mandolin (3rd and 4th courses), so McCoy plays that mystery double stop by fingering the 1st fret on the 2nd course and playing the 3rd course open, getting the 3rd to sound in the key of B-flat both above and below the tonic, thanks to the octave string.

Thanks for all your help! Here's the consensus distilled from the posts above plus one change in 1.2 from grist mill to GRIT mill, as I don't hear the S anymore

I have to ask - what then is a grit mill?

[frankie]

The -3/+3 movement on beat three would be possible with an Eb chord in C position, but is certainly way more common with an F chord in F position.

I have to point this out - the Mississippi Sheiks recorded 7 songs in the key of C and 5 in the key of F.  They recorded 21 songs in the key of B flat, probably more once you figure in the sides recorded with Texas Alexander and other singers.  They recorded more songs in the key of E flat than they did in the key of D.  I'd say an E flat chord was pretty common to them.

[banjochris]

Mr. Mando - you're correct in that the pitches involved in that double-stop include the major 3rd above the tonic.  It also includes the major 3rd below the tonic as well.  If you listen to the little turnaround lick, it's pretty clear that McCoy is using octave strings on the bass courses of the mandolin (3rd and 4th courses), so McCoy plays that mystery double stop by fingering the 1st fret on the 2nd course and playing the 3rd course open, getting the 3rd to sound in the key of B-flat both above and below the tonic, thanks to the octave string.

Ah, that makes sense, and maybe I was listening to the wrong double stop.
Chris

[Fkeller]

6 years later....


How about Verse 3:

Now all I want, strange women, one trial at you