Topic: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas

[wreid75]

I don't want Mack to be a punching bag.  That said its a shame that history can be owned by anyone.  Why any one person can legally or otherwise be seen as deserving the right to own the legacy of someone else's life, no matter how big or small, rich or poor that life was eludes me.  I understand that he was the researcher to find these performers and ask the questions.  Mack isn't a villain and has done nothing legally wrong.  Without him the history would be completely lost.  My question is this: is it any less lost right now?  If this information was being kept with a public institution a freedom of information request might do the job.  The Vatican has long been vilified for refusing to let researchers in to see a library rumored to have scrolls from the ancient library of Alexandria as well as gospels deemed forbidden during the Council of Nicaea.  Is it their right to keep it hidden if they do have them?  Legally they would.  The new Pope has given reason to hope that changes, but I digress.

Ragtime Texas Thomas's heirs don't know as much about their legendary ancestor as Mack.  That is their fault, or at least their parents and grandparents fault.  If they really wanted to know I am sure Mack would tell them, if they knew to go to Houston and find an essentric old man closing in on 90.  If his great great great grand kids wanted to know about him and went to a library Macks research wouldn't be there.  If they looked on line for a online published book such as Revelation by D.N. Blakey, and it wouldn't be there either.  If they looked on a site like this, blindman, tdblues, or others with lots of free info, it wouldn't be there.  If they looked on a university site like where Gayle Dean Wardlow freely made his tapes available for anyone to listen to, they wouldn't be there.  We know where to go for knowledge but for an outsider like me it took a long time to know who to go to and who to ask for what.  I am still learning this.  Most people would never know to even look for Mack.  Not being a long time collector, researcher, or writer from the time of the rediscovery there are lots of holes in what I know and only so many books, magazines, and liner notes to patch them up with.  Many hole will forever go unpatched but I hope that is not the same for future generations.   If history can be forever owned  it can much more easily be forever lost.

[Gilgamesh]

I don't want Mack to be a punching bag.  That said its a shame that history can be owned by anyone.  Why any one person can legally or otherwise be seen as deserving the right to own the legacy of someone else's life, no matter how big or small, rich or poor that life was eludes me.

There are no rights given or implied with virtually any interview that isn't done specifically for a TV broadcast, movie, or something like that, which usually involves a contract. I'm sure 99% of interviews with roots musicians have been conducted informally. Neither the interviewer or interviewee is likely to view such an informal exchange as "owning the legacy" of their life experiences. That is a strange viewpoint. Have you ever interviewed musicians?

I understand that he was the researcher to find these performers and ask the questions.  Mack isn't a villain and has done nothing legally wrong.  Without him the history would be completely lost.  My question is this: is it any less lost right now?  If this information was being kept with a public institution a freedom of information request might do the job.  The Vatican has long been vilified for refusing to let researchers in to see a library rumored to have scrolls from the ancient library of Alexandria as well as gospels deemed forbidden during the Council of Nicaea.  Is it their right to keep it hidden if they do have them?  Legally they would.  The new Pope has given reason to hope that changes, but I digress.

There's really no comparison there, even if your history was accurate, which it is not. (No gospels were discussed at the Council of Nicea, and no Alexandrian scrolls are hidden in the Vatican. This is Dan Brown-level nonsense.)

Ragtime Texas Thomas's heirs don't know as much about their legendary ancestor as Mack.  That is their fault, or at least their parents and grandparents fault.  If they really wanted to know I am sure Mack would tell them, if they knew to go to Houston and find an essentric old man closing in on 90.  If his great great great grand kids wanted to know about him and went to a library Macks research wouldn't be there.

If you think the musician's heirs care as much about this music as Mack does (or we do), you probably haven't spent much time around old musician's heirs. Claude Johnson most likely never heard a note of his supposed father's music until Steve LaVere showed up at his door, despite it being easily accessible for decades by then. You could multiply that example by a million.

[Slack]

Let's try again folks , we were doing so well - thanks!

[ArthurBlake]

Was Mack McCormick a contributor to the article?
Am I understanding it correctly that they originally used information without privilege? Or did he turn it over to them originally?
Wonderful article though.

Seems he was saying Caitlin had taken photos without his consent but surely all that information he has just sitting there deserves to get out and Mack probably wants the stuff to get out but obviously he seems to have some serious personal issues. I hope he gets it together, if not we can only hope that after he passes away all that stuff will be unharmed and available. Looks like it will need more than a couple of researchers to go through it all and sort it out.
          The stuff about the Robert Johnson photos really disturbed me a lot and all my mind is doing at the moment is "please don't let him be right about that".
           I really loved that article and the way the story about L.V. got out and it sort of gives an insight into the mystery of Geeshie and that murder and why L.V. just was not very willing to talk about her or her past "life in the world" as it was described. It does seem the old blues world was pretty dark but isn't it wonderful all the same.

[ArthurBlake]

The larger question is whether or not McCormick's research into OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES rightfully belongs to him, and whether or not he should be declared non compus mentus as regards the safe keeping of his admittedly invaluable archive. Perhaps he should be compelled to turn it over to the LOC or the Smithsonian for safekeeping lest in a fit of bipolar despair he takes a match to the whole thing.

Thank you Mr. O'Muck for saying what I was thinking but actually too scared to write myself, especially the putting a match to it bit. He does have rights to it but surely the rights of all must weigh in the balance. Of course it is possible that we are jumping to conclusions about how far his state of mind has gone and he is of course the man who went and did all the hard footslogging but the very thought he might one day destroy some of or all of it would be the blues equivalent of the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria which perhaps is THE greatest crime against humanity in all of history.

[ArthurBlake]

I enjoyed the article. Here's a follow up piece:

http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/14/behind-the-cover-story-john-jeremiah-sullivan-on-the-search-for-geeshie-and-elvie/?ref=magazine

While his research is about "other people's lives," it is still Mack's work and should be respected as such.

Upon reflection, it's unfortunate that no one was able to respond to Mack's request in 1976 in a manner that he felt was appropriate and acceptable to him. (Maybe they did, I can't be sure.) Perhaps the results of his researches would have been published over the years.

One thing that struck me was that Mack's bi-polar condition?a condition that can be debilitating--was almost treated as a sidelight. A little more understanding and insight into an illness that no one chooses?as well as its effects--might have been in order. But that's an article for another place and time.

Yes bi-polar can be and is a terrible affliction, one that came to light in a very big way a few years back when it was discovered that the great Andrew Johns was bi-polar. Andrew is an Australian sporting icon and perhaps the greatest rugby league player to have ever lived and because he had used marijuana for a time many condemned him for it without ever taking his condition into account, something which angered me as what mattered to me was that he was a genius footballer and his private life none of anybody's business at all. Sorry for deviating a bit from our blues and the article but i feel it is related.

[finn]

(update on the "Geeshie Wiley" photo)  It was found in a box of L.V. Thomas' effects. I'm told that there is now considerable doubt about who it actually is, Geeshie Wiley or an unknown friend of L.V. Thomas. And.... that's all folks!

[ArthurBlake]

I can see both sides of the debate.  For those that love the history of the people, their lives, their stories, the complexity of personalities, for those of us who want to put a person and a life to the music that was written, his quasi-theft is justified.  Imagine if everything we now know about classical composers, even the obscure; historical figures in history, politicians, ancient philosophers, and poets were lost because the one person who had the knowledge didn't share it until all the people who could verify the facts were dead (though this did certainly happen.)  Imagine Van Goghs life being lost.  He was obscure in his life and if he were black this could have easily happened to him.

For those of us how only care about the music and don't really care about who the person was and believes that their lives should be completely private, losing this knowledge isn't a big deal.  Who's right is it of us to want to know those details anyway.   Mack and other researchers have no obligation to share their knowledge, not with us, not with anyone.  It is their knowledge and if history dies with them well so be it.  It would have been lost anyway without the researcher.  Those of us that feel like this hate what Mr. Sulllivan has done we hate how he took advantage of an old man, no matter how complicated or cantankerous he or she may be.

I am glad that Vincents brother shared the life of Van Gogh with the world. I am glad that the amazing Arabic mathematicians that researched and developed advanced mathematics and the geniuses like Nikola Tesla who research and develop scientific breakthroughs didn't die before sharing it with the world.  Am I glad that even though L.V. and Geeshie are seen by some as utterly obscure musicians that their story mattered to a couple of people.  But like Bluesdownsouth I hope a match isn't lit to the whole kit and kaboodle and all other research is lost. 

But before I condemn the two researchers further I will acknowledge that I have done nothing more than write one letter to Mack.  I didn't quit school and go to Texas.  I haven't tried to develop a relationship with Mack and travel to Houston to try to do things "the right way" and to my knowledge no one else has either.  A website has been up for years where Mack has openly asked people to help him with it.  I have failed to do more than write a letter pleading with him to ensure his research ends up in good hands.  They have done more than I and more than anyone I know to try and open Mack's Pandoras box.  LV and Geeshie were able to escape and for that I am grateful.

Now we have to hope that Macks daughter isn't so jaded against the research that she feels consumed too much of his time that it ends up in a trash heap.  If you think something like this can't happen think again.  For some of us it would be a tragedy of Maoist proportions.  To others of us, at least we have the music.  But is that all that really matters?

{{ Now we have to hope that Macks daughter isn't so jaded against the research that she feels consumed too much of his time that it ends up in a trash heap. }} << Yikes, heaven forbid, that would be paramount to throwing her own fathers memory onto a trash heap, unthinkable.
 
I for one do want to know about and have something more to read on the great blues figures and it is part of our history. Not only that but a history where white bigwigs mistreated and vastly underpaid so many great musicians and the tenor of those times is the reason so much information will never see light of day. The work that the searchers and researchers have done in the past and present does something towards righting past wrongs. I do not feel that anyone in this story deserves condemnation, there is way too much GUESSING going on here I feel. let's be thankful to both parties.

Now can we get back to L.V. and Geeshie and talk about them and especially their music ?

[ArthurBlake]

Hi all,
I don't know how helpful or fruitful it is to engage in a lot of conjectural hand-wringing on Mack McCormick's behalf, worrying about the disposition of his archive in the future in the aftermath of the publication of this article, etc., etc. etc.  If Mack feels sufficiently wronged, he can pursue some kind of legal action.  If not, it's crazy to take whatever the imagined offense was (which, in fact, can not be surmised from the information that is publicly available) harder than Mack does himself.  Wait and see what happens.  The core of information at the heart of the article was sat on for fifty years.  Surely people can wait a few weeks or months until there is actually something to talk about. 

If I may talk about music for a moment (remember that?), I would challenge your characterization of LV Thomas and Geechie Wiley as minor figures, Mike, in comparison to Blake, a giant.  Certainly LV and Geechie recorded only a few sides and never achieved the commercial success and recognition that Blind Blake had, nor the influence on other musicians, but musically, they are every bit his peers, and I think made bigger statements in the Blues.  Blind Blake was a superlative guitarist, unbelievably accomplished, and a really nice singer, but I would consider his musical output to be "Blues Lite" in comparison to "Last Kind Words Blues" or "Motherless Child Blues".  He just never did anything with that kind of gravitas or deep Blues feeling.  He didn't have it in him to sing anything that heavy--and most other musicians don't, either!  Those cuts of that duo belong right up there at the top of the heap, with Blind Willie Johnson's "Dark Was the Night", Henry Spaulding's "Cairo Blues", Charlie Patton's "Pony Blues", you name it.
All best,
Johnm



 

     

I understand your point of view John, to a point. I agree that the bluesiness, or the blues deepness in the ladies recordings is not the type that Blake did but I do not agree that Blake was not "deep", or that he was "blues lite". There is something very very deep to me in many of his blues recordings (not his outright rags, but there is also something I find very deep in them). To play as sublimely as he did, as completely full of genius as he did means to me that he is simply above comparison to mere mortals (yes he was mortal but so was Mozart) and he sits above the stratosphere, maybe among the gods. I would cite a tune like Bad Feeling Blues as having gravitas and brilliant guitar playing all in the one single great tune, deep and beautiful.
           
What I see in your comments is a matter of differing styles, Blake is big city and country at the same time, he is jazz and ragtime, and blues and ballad all mixed together, not just a great guitarist but a great storyteller, he had a masterful way with words. With Wiley and Thomas they certainly are deep and also brilliant and I think their status today has more to do with the lack of recordings they got to make, maybe that is because as the article implies that Wiley may have killed a husband and she had to get the hell outta dodge. In summation I must say I agree and also disagree with the comparison and I do understand that you are sticking up for Wiley and Thomas and good on you for that. To me Blake is the king, at least of the guitar so maybe I am just showing some bias but I must point out that I love the delta blues deeply, the darker and moodier the bette.r

[ArthurBlake]

If it were in book form, with Mack's name on the cover as the author it would be Mack's and he would have fulfilled his obligation to the people he collected memories and information from. As filing cabinets full of rare historical information which is NEVER going to be made into a book, a film or anything else by this man, there is zero point in him retaining it and letting it sit and rot or burn. That is a treacherous thing to allow to happen. It places Mack's rights as collector above those of all the people he collected from. Its not as though this were an unpublished novel that he'd written. Nothing is preventing this man from publishing except a crippling mental infirmity which it appears will operate in the same manner forever. Nothing is preventing him from having someone compile an inventory and auctioning it off at Southeby's, Christies or E-Bay.
He can even retain ownership, but the first consideration would be to remove it to a fireproof facility for safe keeping, otherwise it could be gone in an instant. How would that serve anybody?

I am with you, BIG THUMBS UP O'Muck. This stuff is too important to be allowed to "disappear"

[wreid75]

from the article he seems in sound mind thats why i took exception with the invalid comment from his daughter. 

[waxwing]

I don't pretend to be an expert in any way, but my recent studies have given me some awareness of bipolar disorder. It is very hard to recognize in only a few meetings with a person. Primarily it is characterized by periods of elevated mood, sometimes hypermania with "pressured speech", with little need for sleep, great productivity and self esteem, counterbalanced with periods of depression, inability to complete, irritability and often paranoia. But to the common observer they may just appear moody. Medication is difficult, for instance, attempting to medicate for depression can cause greater frequency of cycling. Mood stabilizers can be effective, but not always, and sufferers often want to go off treatment during manic periods. Often sufferers self medicate with alcohol or other substances. Relationships and holding a job are both difficult. This is a terribly debilitating illness to live with. I have no idea to what level this problem effects Mack and draw no conclusions as to how deeply he suffers, but clearly, by his own admission, these symptoms are at play to some level.

I have noticed another aspect of Mack's research that illuminates how this illness can effect someone. There are two parts to "research" as I understand it. One area is "discovery" which is the exciting story collecting phase. At the time that Mack was most active there was a likelihood that many people who were recorded, or knew people that were recorded, were still alive. Mack spent a great deal of time talking to these people and basically gathering a lot of spoken data, what is termed "hearsay" in a court of law. This was all very exciting, of course. The second aspect of research is "fact checking". This puts the capital "R" in research. This is where an attempt is made to verify those "hearsay" statements. This may represent weeks or months of lonely slogging work, going through records, once in paper form, then dizzying microfiche, finally we have online databases that certainly make this easier, but no less frustrating. At least in the evidence we have from this story, it appears that this aspect of research is what eluded Mack. I don't recall any evidence that he followed up on the information that L.V. told him, except maybe to go to places and try to find people who could tell him more. The loneliness and frustration of fact checking could have easily triggered episodes of depression and made this aspect of research impossible for him. Again, this is pure speculation, but fits the profile of the disease.

Another aspect of this discussion, separate from Mack's illness, is the concept of ownership. To me, a researcher is no different from a newspaper reporter. What a researcher owns is the right to say, "I had a conversation with so-and-so on this date, and they told me this information, which may or may not be true." Now I don't see that they have any ownership rights over the actual information they were given. Someone else could have heard the same information from that so-and-so, or from another person, at some other time, and they certainly have the right to report that conversation, as well. So, like a reporter, the intrinsic value of the hearsay information is in being the first to report. The value of that hearsay information may increase drastically if corroborating records can be found. However, just as the original interviewer has the right to say, "in this interview, so-and-so said this," a person who interviews the interviewer can then state what the interviewer told them the original interviewee had stated. Hearsay of hearsay, so to speak. And if the second interviewer then does the fact checking, finding corroboration thus increasing the value of the information, who owns that?

There was also some talk of manipulation, a young man manipulating an older man into revealing more than he wanted to reveal. How is this different from the young Mack interviewing the elderly L.V. and clearly stating his awareness that she did not want to talk about Geeschie, yet, almost proudly describing how he carefully brought her around to that topic several times?

I would also point out that at the time of Mack's interviews a white man had a tremendous power advantage over a black person in the South, even if he wasn't aware that it was a factor in their conversation. I also wonder whether interviewees were aware that information they revealed was possibly going to be published in a book. This was long before the time of signed "informed consent" forms even became a concept. I also wonder how many of those portrait pictures had signed releases for publication. These are all standard practices today.

I am not making any accusations with these observations. Mack was following standard procedures of the times. Really, I am hoping that these views will depolarize the conversation here, by pointing out that these are very complex issues. What has occurred to me is to wonder what would have happened had there not been a falling out between Mack and Sullivan. Sullivan and Love have shown themselves to be the perfect researchers to do the fact checking that eluded Mack for so long. What a great partnership that might have been. It seems the outcome might have been exactly the same, except of course for the incredible controversy that has ensued. That is exemplary of the sadness of bipolar disorder.

But, heck, what a publicity pump that has been for all, really. There even seem to be two new members who joined primarily to publicize an entirely different book by an uninvolved author, which they mention in almost every post? (wink)

Wax

[Shovel]

I am hoping that these views will depolarize the conversation here, by pointing out that these are very complex issues.

The simple part is the sneak-thievery that clearly took place.  Most everything else is pretty complex.  But not that.

Now how you interpret that, whether you're an ends justifies the means type, or whether you are repulsed by it and its effect on McCormick, that gets you back to the muddy waters.

[Gumbo]

(update on the "Geeshie Wiley" photo)  It was found in a box of L.V. Thomas' effects. I'm told that there is now considerable doubt about who it actually is, Geeshie Wiley or an unknown friend of L.V. Thomas. And.... that's all folks!
[/quote

thanks for the update, finn. Can I ask how you know?

[finn]

Yes you can.... I talked this morning to the fellow who showed me the photo.  That's what he said. He added that it may have been a girlfriend of L.V.'s.  Thanks for asking man. I wish I could post the photo but I can't. It is a very striking woman, whoever she is....  The music has got into my blood, my bones. Only reason I'm posting... I don't like the "thief" &  otherwise posts on this thread.  John Sullivan isn't a thief....I ain't posting on this thread no more. It's all about the history & actually playing the music in front of paying crowds for me. This "he said, she said" shit isn't my cup of brew. I'm way too busy with the music.  And I hope that it's y'all focus too. Shit needs to get played in front of paying customers.