Topic: Charlie Patton's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips

[Kokomo O]

You know, Wax, I think you're really channelling Charley Patton there, vocals and all. You're coming far closer in feel, if not in terms of absolute accuracy, which after all doesn't really count for much, than any white man in his 60s living so far from Mississippi in the early 21st Century has any right to get.

There are four major differences between you and Patton. One, he was a total genius, not to take anything away from you. And I know you'd concur with that. Two, he pretty much invented this stuff, which makes a huge difference in the freedom with which he played it. Three, he invented it as a much younger man than you were, as I understand it, when you started learning to play it. And four, he was almost always much more lubricated than I'll bet you generally are. That can loosen up that right hand quite a bit.

I also have a feeling even ol' Son House and Willie Brown sat around a fair amount and asked each other "now how'd Cholley do that?" If it was easy everybody'd do it.

[waxwing]

Thanks for that, Kokomo O. I certainly agree that I could never hope to be able to play like the person who developed this style through his 20s and 30s was able to play when he was recorded in his prime. But what I hope is that some young player gets a notion of the possibilities from seeing my attempts and develops his own way of playing in this non-opposing style.

Wax

[frailer24]

A funny thing I noticed in "Dry Well Blues" that has caught my ear is in certain spots(notably in the midst of the second verse), either Willie Brown or Charlie, while resolving from the A to the E chord, hits a C# to B slide in the low register that almost sounds like an off-mike vocal. Anybody else notice this or have any explanations?

[chickenlegs]

Hey frailer,
If I'm understanding correctly, it is a descending bass line. I hear it as going from a hammered E on 4th string to C# to B on 5th string. Much like what Patton plays on "pony blues" when going from the implied IV chord to the I chord in verses 2,3,and 5.
As a note, from what I've read it's generally believed that Brown played rhythm and Patton played lead on "dry well blues". This has always been at question in my mind. For one thing, the lead guitar is hard to hear (sounds away from the mic), much like the second guitar on "moon going down" and the seemingly nonexistent second guitar on "bird's nest bound", both attributed to Brown. And since Patton is singing, I would think that he would be closer to the mic. Also, the rhythm guitar sounds like what Patton plays on some other songs, albeit slower and more deliberate. To my ear, Patton could have played both parts ? but that's not possible. I guess Brown really had Patton's style down.

[frailer24]

Thank ye kindly, Chicken! I've also wondered about the quietness of the lead guitar, and that makes good sense.

[Sunflower]

Hi everybody, I was listen to Down the dirt road blues  by Charlie Patton, and I use to play it without all the amazing percussion stuff that are present in the song.  Charlie Patton recorded sometimes with others guys like Henry Sims or Willie Brown , listening to Down the dirt road I feel like there's another person with him that makes the talking parts ( the begin of the talking phrase is like too near the end of the singing notes by Patton) althought this can be also Charlie but sure the second person plays the percussions stuff. In the Wirz american music discography on the single Down the dirt road / It wont be long recorded  14 june 1929 in Richmond  by   Charlie Patton vocal,guitar and unknow sp   
I m saying this cos over the years I ve always seen musicians trying to do all kind of percussions to sound like the original recordings , and sure  Charlie Patton made some percussions with his hands ( like Bukka White) or foot. Probably on songs like Screaming and Hollerin but in songs like Down the dirt road blues all the percussions considering also the guitar parts seems too difficult to do for a single person and probably there was another person with him. What do you think?

[Alexei McDonald]

Hi everybody, I was listen to Down the dirt road blues  by Charlie Patton, and I use to play it without all the amazing percussion stuff that are present in the song.  Charlie Patton recorded sometimes with others guys like Henry Sims or Willie Brown , listening to Down the dirt road I feel like there's another person with him that makes the talking parts ( the begin of the talking phrase is like too near the end of the singing notes by Patton) althought this can be also Charlie but sure the second person plays the percussions stuff. In the Wirz american music discography on the single Down the dirt road / It wont be long recorded  14 june 1929 in Richmond  by   Charlie Patton vocal,guitar and unknow sp   
I m saying this cos over the years I ve always seen musicians trying to do all kind of percussions to sound like the original recordings , and sure  Charlie Patton made some percussions with his hands ( like Bukka White) or foot. Probably on songs like Screaming and Hollerin but in songs like Down the dirt road blues all the percussions considering also the guitar parts seems too difficult to do for a single person and probably there was another person with him. What do you think?

Here's a video over on YouTube with some pretty convincing percussion.

Note: I can't do this.

[leo5t]

Hello,
I'm trying to learn Screaming and Hollering but I'm really confused about the beat of the song, in particular the parts in G when he sings over the descending bass runs. The Percussive bass part is played in the down beat? Tom Feldman in the lesson from Guitar Workshop is playing them on the down beats but when I listen to Patton version I really get confused.  Do you have any advice about playing this song the way Patton does?

[waxwing]

Hi Leo, Welcome to Weenie Campbell,

Here's my take on this. Hope it helps.

One thing that I think may help is not to use the first verse as your example. The real basis of the lick is the walk down on the 6th and 4th strings and Charley plays it cleanly in the 4th verse (No use Hollerin’). Once you get that you can deal with the various alterations he does as you see fit.

So if you look at this walk down there are a series of couplets with the first note on the 6th string on the “and”, and the second note on the 4th string (with a bit of over strum) on the beat just as you hear it. So starting on the “and” of the four beat: and-1-and-2-and-3-and, with an open strum of the middle strings on the “and” of the third beat and a rest on four, then starting over on the "and" of four.

I think it is highly likely that Charley plays this all with his thumb. Watch the YouTube of Sam Chatmon (purportedly Charley’s half brother) playing Brownskin Woman for an example. I think Vincson does the same in Stop and Listen, and Willie Brown in Future Blues. Willie even uses the half beat syncopation as Patton does.

So the tricky part is getting in and out of the syncopation. I actually tap the top of the guitar with my right pinky and ring fingers throughout most of each verse, similarly to what I think Patton does through High Water and other songs. In the final bar of the previous version Charley usually hits the bass on the 1 beat and strums down the open treble strings on the 2 and 3 beats. I tap on both of these and then double time my tap, “and”-4-, starting the lick immediately on the “and” of 4. You could count the two half beats in your head. To get out after the down strum on the middle strings on the “and” of 3 immediately strike the bass (5th string) on the 4th beat followed by an up stroke on the treble strings holding the 1st strings 5th fret on the “and”, which is repeated once before dropping to the 3rd fret for two more similar beats and you are off.

I might try to add a grab of a bit of tab (done!) I wrote out and you can find a video from a house concert I did years ago when I was just beinning to suss out Chaerley's playing style on my YouTube sight. I was experimenting with foot tapping on the beat. It's humerous.

Wax

[leo5t]

Hello Wax,
Thank you!!! Thank you for sharing such information, there' s really a lot of knowledge in there. I'll try to practice following your suggesions.

Thanks again,
Leo

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I merged the recent thread with a query on playing "Screaming And Hollering The Blues" into this thread.
All best,
Johnm

[Sunflower]

Hi everybody, I was listen to Down the dirt road blues  by Charlie Patton, and I use to play it without all the amazing percussion stuff that are present in the song.  Charlie Patton recorded sometimes with others guys like Henry Sims or Willie Brown , listening to Down the dirt road I feel like there's another person with him that makes the talking parts ( the begin of the talking phrase is like too near the end of the singing notes by Patton) althought this can be also Charlie but sure the second person plays the percussions stuff. In the Wirz american music discography on the single Down the dirt road / It wont be long recorded  14 june 1929 in Richmond  by   Charlie Patton vocal,guitar and unknow sp   
I m saying this cos over the years I ve always seen musicians trying to do all kind of percussions to sound like the original recordings , and sure  Charlie Patton made some percussions with his hands ( like Bukka White) or foot. Probably on songs like Screaming and Hollerin but in songs like Down the dirt road blues all the percussions considering also the guitar parts seems too difficult to do for a single person and probably there was another person with him. What do you think?

Here's a video over on YouTube with some pretty convincing percussion.

Note: I can't do this.

Well yeah I know the guy, from YT I 'm a follower. Yes great percussion with the Thumb while playing the notes on the first strings with index!  But in the original version I can hear , if i m not mistaken , percussion every 1/8 of the beat , like 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and  hearing percussion on every 1/8 with a strong accent on the down beat and this especially on the first A part of each verse.Then in other A  and B verse is a little different .Everything is much more complex. Anyway who knows ? Probably a combination of  hand and foot percussions He was Charlie Patton so sure he had the ability of some acrobatic percussion stuff with his hands and feet. Yes, some compare it to Bukka White, but while Bukka 's own percussion is sure of great effect but not so difficult to do it, in this Patton song everything seems much more complex. Thats why I was wonderin if there was  another guy in the studio  helping Charlie with  all those percussions .