Topic: Tommy Johnson's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips

[Pan]

I think I just remembered something that strongly suggests that Uncle Bud is right.

In Morning Prayer Blues Johnson ends up his choruses with a C chord inversion which has the very high E note on the 12th fret of the 1st string, while the low G note rings out. I vaguely remember that we discussed this earlier, maybe with Cheapfeets great backporch rendition. This would be impossible to play in standard tuning, and I remember being baffled  by this, thinking maybe the worn out 78 where the track was taken is playing tricks with my ears or something.  UBs tuning solves the problem neatly.

The chord in question would be something like:

x-0-(10)-12-x-12, followed by the open G (3rd) and B string notes which give you the time to position your hand for the following C/G chord x-0-2-0-1-0.

Cheers

Pan

Edited to specify which open G string is in question, since we now have two of them! 

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I also believe Andrew to be right in his figuring of Tommy Johnson playing in EGDGBE tuning for "Morning Prayer Blues" and "Boogaloosa Woman" after listening to the two songs several times.  Here are a few of the reasons I think uncle bud has the tuning right, and I'll stick to reasons not cited thus far.
   * The low root of the IV chord, F, is in tune for both of these songs, but when Tommy Johnson comes to the seventh and eighth bars of the form he really leans on that V note under the I chord, C, and it is notably flat.  Were he getting the IV note and the V note on the same string, the notes would either both be in tune or both not be in tune in the same way.  As it is, the IV note is in tune and the V note is flat--conclusion:  they're being played on different strings.
   * At the end of the eighth bar and at the beginning of the ninth bar, under the I chord in the eighth bar and the V chord in the 9th bar, Tommy Johnson does a strong slamming motion with his thumb, getting both the G and E note in the bass behind the I chord and the G and D note in the bass behind the V chord.  This would not be physically possible with these notes on non-adjacent strings, as they are in standard tuning.  In the modified tuning proposed by uncle bud, the move is a piece of cake.
   * I differ slightly with you, Pan, on my hearing of the II9 chord passage in "Morning Prayer Blues".  I think Tommy Johnson is fingering it 5-X-4-5-3-0, and bouncing his thumb from the sixth to the fourth string, and then confusedly taking the position down two frets intact, as though he was going V7 to IV7 in the key of G, instead of resolving the D9 to a G7 and then to C.  I think he lost his harmonic bearings for a second and then righted himself, but because he was working with a closed position he was able to move it down two frets and get away with it.  The move tends to corroborate the proposed tuning rather than disprove it.
Good on you, uncle bud, for having figured this out!
All best,
Johnm
 

[uncle bud]

Thanks gents, I'll take a look at your responses in more detail, but it seems like we're on the same page.

For those who may not have a recording of "I Want Someone to Love Me", you can hear it in this YouTube video. As mentioned above, some people have had less than positive things to say about the song, but it has grown on me to the point where I think it's pretty cool. At the very least, Tommy Johnson does some pretty nifty guitar work on it.

[Pan]

Hi again

Johnm, re-listening to the song, I can hear that you are, of course, correct about the II9 - I7 chord shapes. Thanks for straightening that up. I edited my earlier post accordingly.

Uncle Bud, thank you so much for posting the TJ video. It's fascinating to hear him play this kind of material. He truly is a master of the falsetto vocals thing, no matter what material he is doing. And I found the  guitar work excellent too. After a quick few listenings I think this song is indeed also performed in the tuning you suggest.

Congratulations again for the great detective work on this tuning! Not in a million years would I have thought of just dropping the 5th string!

[CF]

I've been working on this song intermittently since Andrew broke the tuning code. I gave it a try tonight & faded out the real bad parts at the end! 'Boogaloosa Woman' & 'Morning Prayer Blues' are in this TJ tuning but I've played them in standard for years and am having trouble getting at them.

http://www.archive.org/details/IWantSomeoneToLoveMe&reCache=1

[Pan]

Some great falsetto singing there!

Cheers

Pan

[jaycee]

i have the complete recordings? of tommy johnson. on document records. and the track i want someone to love me is certainly not on that cd. the question been, on what cd is the track available on?

[Johnm]

Hi all,
After re-listening, I don't think "I Want Someone To Love Me" is in the Tommy Johnson tuning that "Morning Prayer" and "Boogaloosa Woman" were in, but rather was played out of C in standard tuning.  The reason for this is at the end of the first vocal phrase (:27--:28 on the track), in the fifteenth and sixteenth bars, the song goes to a V chord, G, and you can hear Tommy Johnson do an ascending arpeggio of the G chord, R-3-5-R, that exactly tracks the voicing of a G chord coming up from the sixth string through open third string in standard tuning:  3-2-0-0.  Were the song played out of his customized tuning, the same run would be fingered 3-4-0-0, which is pretty weird.  I think the run was played out of standard tuning because the G chord in standard tuning gives you the run, more or less.
All best,
Johnm

[Stuart]

i have the complete recordings? of tommy johnson on document records and the track i want someone to love me is certainly not on that cd. the question been, on what cd is the track available on?

http://www.yazoorecords.com/2068.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Times-Aint-Like-They-Used/dp/B000QQZBX4

[dj]

It's also on the CD that came with the first Blues Images calendar.  The calendar is still available, and the CD can be purchased separately for $9.95.

http://bluesimages.com/html/product_html/cd_vol_1_new.html

[uncle bud]

Hi all,
After re-listening, I don't think "I Want Someone To Love Me" is in the Tommy Johnson tuning that "Morning Prayer" and "Boogaloosa Woman" were in, but rather was played out of C in standard tuning.  The reason for this is at the end of the first vocal phrase (:27--:28 on the track), in the fifteenth and sixteenth bars, the song goes to a V chord, G, and you can hear Tommy Johnson do an ascending arpeggio of the G chord, R-3-5-R, that exactly tracks the voicing of a G chord coming up from the sixth string through open third string in standard tuning:  3-2-0-0.  Were the song played out of his customized tuning, the same run would be fingered 3-4-0-0, which is pretty weird.  I think the run was played out of standard tuning because the G chord in standard tuning gives you the run, more or less.
All best,
Johnm

One could play the arpeggio by starting on the open 5th string, making it 0 to 4th fret, then open 4th string then open 3rd string as usual. But I think you're right, John, that G bass sounds like it rings throughout the arpeggio.

It's somewhat strange how he avoids the root of the C chord so much in this tune (he does play it a couple times).

[jaycee]

thanks for the info, stuart, and dj.  going to order, times aint like they used to be vol8.

[SteveMcBill]

For those who may be interested; a tab in TablEdit format (.tef) of Tommy Johnson's "Big Road Blues" has been posted this evening on:

http://www.stevemcwilliam.co.uk/guitar/friendstab.htm

Tab for "Bottle Up and Go"  added last night !

Enjoy.

Steve.
http://www.stevemcwilliam.co.uk/guitar/tab.htm
http://www.stevemcwilliam.co.uk/guitar/friendstab.htm
http://www.stevemcwilliam.co.uk/guitar/dadi.htm
http://www.youtube.com/user/SteveMcBill/videos?gl=GB
http://fandalism.com/stevemcbill

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Here is the merged Tommy Johnson guitar style thread.
All best,
Johnm

[CF]

Gents, I have spent soooooo much time on Morning Prayer/Button Up Shoes Blues over the years, probably more time than on any piece of music in my whole life & when Andrew guessed the tuning secret 2 & a half years ago that was such a big step forward for me getting inside Mr Johnson's head. 
I've reread this thread a bunch & have found Andrew & John's input so helpful but it wasn't til recently that I realized Pan had mentioned something that I had been missing:

I think I just remembered something that strongly suggests that Uncle Bud is right.

In Morning Prayer Blues Johnson ends up his choruses with a C chord inversion which has the very high E note on the 12th fret of the 1st string, while the low G note rings out. This would be impossible to play in standard tuning, and I remember being baffled by this, thinking maybe the worn out 78 where the track was taken is playing tricks with my ears or something. UBs tuning solves the problem neatly.

The chord in question would be something like:

x-0-(10)-12-x-12, followed by the open G (3rd) and B string notes which give you the time to position your hand for the following C/G chord x-0-2-0-1-0.

Cheers

Pan

Edited to specify which open G string is in question, since we now have two of them! 

I think Pan is on the right track but I have a slight variation for the 'chord' shape way up at the twelfth fret:

x-0-(10)-0-13-12 (modified to add Pan's suggested C note on 10th fret of the D which I'm hearing quite clearly now)
So that's a C note on the D AND B strings & of course an E note an octave higher on the E string, mimicking the C chord at first position but giving it that distinctive 'chime' sound Tommy gets. I have hitherto been attempting to get that by playing a 'long A' shape at the 5th fret & noticing it wasn't sounding right. The problem for me is that this is a hard chord shape for me to play, especially with the ease & speed Tommy seems to use it on the recording. 

Also, in the third chorus on the word 'none' of the lyric 'I would go with you but your home ain't none of mine . . . ' you hear a pretty distinct Eb note dragged up to E. From there you can hear him slide into the C-shaped F chord (ignoring the 5th string but grabbing the 6th string at the 8th fret) with the G#-A slid notes sounding pretty clearly on the D string.

Tommy tends to play the end of a lot of these forms with this chimey 12th fret riff/chord which puts the song into another category for me, technically . . . It could be played with much more ease without the added C note on the B at the 13th but it doesn't have the same sound . . . any opinions??