Topic: Mississippi John Hurt's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips

[Mark Miller]

Despite my claiming in another thread that I could play and sing Spike Driver moderately well, I've never quite been happy with the sound and feel of my playing of that song.  I think I may have just figured out why.  I've been playing it in swung tempo (is that how you say it?), as so much of MJH's playing is, or at least has seemed to me up to now.  But I've been listening to and looking at and trying to copy John Miller's DVD lesson, and going slow with the split-screen, it seems to me now that it's played in fairly straight time.  When I tried playing it that way, it sounded better--oddly, it actually sounded more funky and grooving, which is what I normally would associate with swung time.  John (and others):  am I hearing things?  Onto something?  Making this all up?  I'd appreciate any thoughts about MJH's timing.

[Johnm]

Hi mole,
You are right about John Hurt's timing as per your recent discovery.  With only one exception that I've heard, his song "Lazy Blues", John Hurt pretty much always played straight eighth notes, as did Libba Cotten, Frank Stokes, Henry Thomas and many other players of their generation.  I think so many people have misinterpreted the song title "It Don't Mean A Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing" to think that it applies to eighth notes--it doesn't, necessarily.  There's plenty of music that didn't and doesn't swing eighth notes but was/is no less rhythmically vital and alive for that.  Try John Hurt's "Avalon Blues" or any samba or bossa nova.  None of them swing the eighth notes, but all you have to do is listen and feel the time and groove to know that it is cooking! 
I think you've discovered something that will help you get John Hurt's sound and phrasing, not only in "Spike Driver's Blues", but throughout his repertoire.
All best,
Johnm

[obrigadotony]

This is something I would normally post on the Woodshed forum at SGGW as a question for John - am gonna try doing it here as I would like to post more on here as this forum is a lot more active and fun - spend some time going through some old Charlie Patton posts over our Thanksgiving long weekend (Canada - we do it earlier).

I'm making my way through John Millers' lesson one on MJH - currently at Monday Morning Blues.  While the V chord pattern seems simple enough, when I listen to the recording (I have the compilation "Rediscovered" - not sure what the original LP is), I'm hearing some work done on the first string

open high E with what then sounds like a hammer-on on the F#(2nd fret) to the G#(4th fret).  this struck me as odd and now listening to the tune it almost sounds like there are two guitars at play here.

Does anyone know what going on here?  I'm trying to work the above mentioned lick into my V chord but am having trouble - it's quite difficult to do while trying to keep everything else in mind.

Nick

[banjochris]

I'm pretty sure the recording on "The Immortal Mississippi John Hurt" has Pat Sky on second guitar for "Monday Morning." I know he plays on "Moaning the Blues," "Good Morning Miss Carrie," and "Waiting for You," the latter two on "Last Sessions," I think.
Chris

[Stuart]

There are definitely two guitars, the second one being Pat Sky as Chris stated. 

[Pan]

FWIW, the liner notes of the album confirm what Banjochris and Stuart said.

http://www.wirz.de/music/hurtfrm.htm

Cheers

Pan

[Mark Miller]

After learning a bunch of songs kind of okay, but never really nailing down anything, in recent months I have finally gotten good enough to start getting songs up to speed while trying to hold onto their texture.  So I'm going back through things I've learned before and trying to build a repertoire of songs I can actually play in front of another person.  My current one is Spike Driver--which I see I posted on a couple of years ago when I was struggling with it!  Anyway, I have been amazed at how much nuance and texture there is in that song once you really dig into it.  I thought I'd post a few of my observations in case they help anyone or in case any of you more experienced players wants to correct mistakes I may be making. 

What I've learned the last week or so mostly concerns the thumb.  One thing is that on the 2 and 4 beats I had previously thought he just hit them harder to get that swinging, driving feel.  But take a look at the Rainbow Quest video of him playing it (where he really gets some serious groove going!).  He brings his thumb almost to rest on the D string and then drives it through the D and G strings.  I don't mean that he slows down or stops, just that he isn't doing a big swinging stroke to get that chordal feel.  I have always wondered how he manages a chordal feel and a rhythmic driving one at the same time, and I think that's it.  The other thumb thing is that he varies his attack quite a bit.  When he gets into that thing where in between the bass notes he drones on the G string, the thumb is doing more of a precise and somewhat staccato pick.  This really drives the music too, but in another way that gives those passages such a distinct texture, almost a ragtimey feel.  Finally, in the passages when he alternates the bass 6-4-5-4, when he plays that B note on the 5th string, the note often sounds a lot punchier than the other bass notes--it really stands out.  After working with my teacher on this and watching that video again, I see that he lifts his ring finger off the 6th string when he hits the 5th one, then after striking that B note lifts his middle finger off the 5th string.  This assures that the note is not muffled at all, it really rings out, but then is cut short.  He also hits that note hard.  All of this contributes to making that B note really jump out at you.  It is enormously fun to slow back down and go through this song again and start to get it a bit closer to the sound I love so much when I hear MJH play it.

[ArthurBlake]

Hi mole,
You are right about John Hurt's timing as per your recent discovery.  With only one exception that I've heard, his song "Lazy Blues", John Hurt pretty much always played straight eighth notes, as did Libba Cotten, Frank Stokes, Henry Thomas and many other players of their generation.  I think so many people have misinterpreted the song title "It Don't Mean A Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing" to think that it applies to eighth notes--it doesn't, necessarily.  There's plenty of music that didn't and doesn't swing eighth notes but was/is no less rhythmically vital and alive for that.  Try John Hurt's "Avalon Blues" or any samba or bossa nova.  None of them swing the eighth notes, but all you have to do is listen and feel the time and groove to know that it is cooking! 
I think you've discovered something that will help you get John Hurt's sound and phrasing, not only in "Spike Driver's Blues", but throughout his repertoire.
All best,
Johnm

Hi John, as I have always loved the Stephan Grossman Guitar Workshop lessons and have bought many.. I recently bought your double DVD of John Hurt's music mainly because I wanted help on his material for a student of mine who is picking things up quickly and I must say I am astonished by just how spot on you are with all the detail and nuances.... I am no stranger to your lessons either but this one is clearly the best lessons on Mississippi John Hurt... mate you are the teacher's teacher, the guitarists guitarist and I salute you.

           I highly recommend John's two dvd's on John Hurt, if yoy think you know how to play them right then you are probably wrong.

[Johnm]

Thanks very much for the good words, ArthurBlake, I really appreciate them.
All best,
Johnm

[ArthurBlake]

Thanks very much for the good words, ArthurBlake, I really appreciate them.
All best,
Johnm

It's my pleasure John, just love your great attention to detail and you always seem to nail it and your easy going humble manner is a plus. Look forward to see what your next video will be.

[Mark Miller]

I've been idly wondering about the opening lick to Richland Women Blues for a long time.  John, in your DVD lesson, you teach it the way Hurt played it in a recording in which he gets that E flat note on the second string by dropping out the bass.  While it is cool that Hurt plays around with the bass more than he's often given credit for, and I'm learning a lot from your books and DVDs about this, I also sometimes hear Hurt play that lick while still keeping the bass going--for instance, in the Vanguard recordings.  I think I've figured out a way to play it and I want to run it by you and the rest of the gang here. 

I tried to figure out what notes are part of the riff and how to play them while keeping an alternating bass, and have ended up with something like a modified partial E7 chord moved up a half step (if that makes any sense)--modified because the index and second finger are moved over a string each (to the fourth and fifth strings respectively) while the pinky picks up the fourth fret of the second string (that E flat note).  The thumb alternates between the 5th and 4th strings on the downbeats, while the index and middle finger of the picking hand play the 2nd and 1st strings on the offbeats.  There's time to move from that to the F chord because the note on the and of beat 4 is the open high E.  At the end of the form, you can use the turnaround bass run to get back into that second-position chord for the opening riff again.

I hope that explanation makes sense.  I'm no expert in figuring this stuff out.

[Mark Miller]

Just went back and listened to the Vanguard recording.  What I came up with is not what he's playing there by any means.  He does play some bass notes, but not regularly.  I came up with what I did by sitting down with the guitar and trying to approach the general idea of getting those melody notes with a bass included.  Oh well, there's no one way to play this stuff...

[Johnm]

Hi Mark,
You can maintain a "regular" C alternation, from the third fret of the fifth string to the second fret of the fourth string, while playing that phrase with the Eb if you lift your index finger, which normally holds down the first fret of the second string in the C chord.  By lifting the index finger, you allow for more lateral movement in the rest of the hand, which makes the slide with the little finger to the fourth fret of the second string possible, and allows you to continue fretting that while you go back and forth between the open first string and the fourth fret of the second string.  Give it a try.
All best,
Johnm

[Mark Miller]

Thanks John! 

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I merged a recent thread on "Richland Women Blues" into this thread.
All best,
Johnm