Topic: Adventures in D position, standard tuning

[Johnm]

Hi all,
It has been a while since we've had a new thread in this series.  We already have "Adventures in" threads for Spanish, Vestapol, Cross-note, EAEGBE, Dropped-D, and DGDGBE tunings, as well as F position in standard tuning.  I thought that D position in standard tuning merited such a thread because, in a way, it is a specialty playing position, altogether avoided by many or most Country Blues guitarists, including some of the real heavy hitters:  Blind Lemon Jefferson, Charlie Patton, Luke Jordan and Libba Cotten all never recorded a single number played out of D position in standard tuning.  Maybe as the thread goes along we can discuss why that may have been so, what D position gives you, and what it makes unavailable to you. 
In the meantime, I thought it might be fun and instructive to begin to compile a list of recorded performances that were played out of D position in standard tuning.  I'll start the ball rolling, and if we confine ourselves to two or three songs per post, more folks will be able to participate.  Here goes:
   * "James Alley Blues"--Richard "Rabbit" Brown
   * "I'm A Guitar King"--Tommy McClennan
   * "Happy Blues"--Tom Dickson
Anyone care to post some others?
All best,
Johnm

[Old Man Ned]

Off the top of my head, two spring to mind:
Robert Wilkins, I'll go with her
Mississippi John Hurt, Stack O'Lee

[waxwing]

I'm a big fan of Scrapper Blackwell who uses D position pretty extensively.  A good example would be "Back Door Blues." Check out the nifty III, VI, II, V, I this position offers and which he sometimes inserts for the V chord bars.

Wax

[banjochris]

Two I really enjoy:
Blind Boy Fuller -- "Working Man Blues," "Painful Hearted Man"

[frankie]

Pete Franklin - Prison Bound
Edward Thompson - West Virginia Blues

[P D Grant]

Great question, John. I've always felt uncomfortable playing in D. I guess because the bottom end isn't always obvious, and isn't often used. It sounds, to my ear, a little unbalanced. As well as Rev Robert Wilkins and John Hurt, already mentioned, Tommy Johnson springs to mind. You Got To Move - Rev Gary Davis - is a great song in D and a joy to play, even if not strictly a blues.

[frankie]

It's kind of odd to compare Rev. Davis's playing in D with just about any other country blues musician. Most other CB guitarists would mine the 1st position for all that it was worth - you can see this in particular with someone like Robert Wilkins, who always seemed to find something unique that falls right under the hand. Rev. Davis seems to me to take closed relationships on the guitar and re-use them all over the neck - you can this very clearly in the way that he navigates in the key of D...  his "home" chord isn't even a 1st position D chord...  it's a closed 2nd position C chord!

[Johnm]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed here so far.  I do see D position in standard tuning as being distinct from Dropped-D tuning for a couple of reasons:
   * Going to Dropped-D tuning changes the most likely possibilities for the bass in both the I chord, D and the !V chord, G. In D position, standard tuning the lowest-pitched root you can play is the open fourth string (or its unisons on the two lower strings).  This makes D position in standard tuning uniquely top-heavy in its registration, and makes it very awkward to play an alternating bass moving from the bass towards the treble with the root on the bottom.  I suspect a fair number of players tried and rejected the V-I alternation you get by alternating from the open fifth to the open fourth string in that tuning, as John Hurt habitually played it.  Rev. Davis finessed that problem by essentially playing in the key of D in standard tuning out of a semi-barred C position, as on "You Got To Move", which P D Grant mentioned.  As I went to post this, I found that Frank had made this very point in a post immediately prior to mine.  You on it, Frank!
   * If D position in standard tuning and Dropped-D tuning are interchangeable, why are there a fair number of players who played songs (sometimes many songs) in Dropped-D, but not a one in D position in standard tuning?  Blind Blake, Gabriel Brown, Lightnin' Hopkins, Carolina Slim and Joseph Spence all played only in Dropped-D, never in D position in standard tuning.  Conversely,  Mississippi John Hurt had many songs in D position in standard tuning but not a one played in Dropped-D.
All best,
Johnm 

[banjochris]

I believe all of Frank Stokes' numbers in D are in standard, are they not?

[Johnm]

Yup, Chris, and the same goes for Henry Thomas.
All best,
Johnm

[waxwing]

I believe all of Frank Stokes' numbers in D are in standard, are they not?

Yup, Chris, and the same goes for Henry Thomas.
All best,
Johnm

And Scrapper? I don't really know, but I'd wager. And one of his ways of dealing with the bottom light registration was to wrap the F# and stroke the full triad, F#, A, D, giving a rich bassy sound for which it doesn't seem to matter that the root isn't at the bottom.

Henry Thomas has no problem alternating off the A ("Red River Blues" and others) but wraps and alternates off the F#, too ("Bull Dozed Blues").

Wax

[Adam Franklin]

I always play the 3rd (F#, 6th string 2nd fret) or 5th (A, 5th string) as the root. Scrapper's Back Door Blues is a great one, good call Wax. He uses the A as the root.

Let's not forget, the root is the lowest note in the chord. The 1st note (ie D in this case), is the 'Tonic'.

A.

[frankie]

Let's not forget, the root is the lowest note in the chord. The 1st note (ie D in this case), is the 'Tonic'.

Digression:

I could be wrong, but root I think refers to the note on which a chord is built, which may not necessarily be the lowest note in the chord. The notes E - G - C would still have C as the root, although E is the lowest note.  The idea is that you name the chord by the root - not by the lowest note.

Tonic, I think, refers to scalar movement and not specifically to chord construction.

Moderators can separate  this out to the "angels on the head of a pin" forum if so desired...

[Johnm]

Yes, the root of the chord is the note by which it is named, wherever it is voiced.  Root in the bass, root position, third in the bass, first inversion, fifth in the bass, second inversion, seventh in the bass, third inversion.
All best,
Johnm

[CF]

I was learning Blind Willie McTell's 'Stole Rider Blues' last year . . . that has some real nifty ideas out of D position (drop D?), stuff completely new to me. Count me as one who doesn't play enough in this position anymore, use to all the time.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
A couple of others played in D position, standard tuning:
   * Santa Fe Blues--Smith Casey
   * Airy Man Blues--Papa Charlie Jackson
All best,
Johnm

[frankie]

I was learning Blind Willie McTell's 'Stole Rider Blues' last year . . . that has some real nifty ideas out of D position (drop D?)

That one is in Drop-D, but you're right about the song - really neat stuff going on, particularly over the IV chord.

[Blueshome]

William Harris - West Side Blues

[banjochris]

Hi all,
A couple of others played in D position, standard tuning:
   * Santa Fe Blues--Smith Casey
   * Airy Man Blues--Papa Charlie Jackson

Papa Charlie's "Shake That Thing" also.
Memphis Minnie - "Banana Man Blues"
Chris

[Johnm]

Waxwing, just as you say, I believe all of Scrapper's D tunes were in D position, standard tuning rather than Dropped-D tuning--at least all of the D tunes he recorded.  And his tactic of raking the bottom three strings in D with the thumb wrapped F# on the sixth string certainly got the position out of the top-heavy sound it might otherwise be prone too, in addition to being an extremely powerful way of playing time.  He really was such an ace!
All best,
Johnm

[waxwing]

Agreed. An ace! Particularly in the Key of D. I wish I had more time and energy to donate to your lesson on his postwar "Blues in E" to see what he was up to there. But my aging hands seem to require so many more repetitions these days just to remember a simple passage. The struggle goes on, with too little time and energy.

But the more I think about your mandate for this thread:

Maybe as the thread goes along we can discuss why that may have been so, what D position gives you, and what it makes unavailable to you.

I feel that "Back Door Blues" really does exhibit a lot of what D position offers, at least to someone with the imagination of a Scrapper Blackwell. And not just in the D chord, as I've already mentioned and more. In the IV chord, G, he has some terrific ideas: In the first few pass throughs, working with a 32303x G7, he lifts the bass, not to an open 6th string E as one might in G, but to the thumb wrapped F# again; And then in the solo, using the same 32303x G7, the lovely syncopated double stop walk down, holding the 2nd and 4th string at the 3rd fret with ring and pinky, playing xxx2x1 (with index and middle), xxx0x0, xx3x3x, several times, but then in the 3rd and 4th verses plays essentially the same walk down on the 2nd and 4th string, but with an on the beat rhythmic feel, xxx7x6x, xxx5x5x, xxx3x3x, xxx0x0x, to the D chord, possibly to get clean damping between each double stop. Also the idea of bending the m3rd toward the M3rd and the m7th toward the M7th at the 3rd fret of the 4th and 5th strings, all the fretting needed for 1st two measures of the solo while holding the partial D on the 2nd and 3rd strings, is simplicity itself. And yet in his other songs in D he utilizes entirely different ideas. Truly amazing!

Wax

[Johnm]

Hi all,
One player for whom D position in standard tuning was a favorite position was Memphis Willie B.  On his two Prestige Bluesville albums he recorded a host of tunes that he played out of D position in standard tuning, including:
   * Bad Girl Blues
   * Car Machine Blues
   * Overseas Blues
   * Good Potatoes
   * Funny Caper Blues
   * Grief Will Kill You
   * P 38 Blues

Baby Tate did not record a lot of titles played out of D position in standard tuning, but the one he did, "When Your Woman Don't Want You Around", is spectacular, and he gets around in the position with tremendous flair and invention.  I don't believe the performance is up on youtube, and if I can't find it, I'll post an .mp3 of it.
All best,
Johnm

[banjochris]

Leadbelly is another standard D player (if you can call his tuning standard!) -- I would guess that retuning the 12 would be a pain, plus he'd lose that nice big G on the bottom of this IV chord.
Chris

[Johnm]

Good point re Leadbelly, Chris.  Another thing about him is that he would sometimes play thumb lead out of D position in standard tuning, as on his version of "House of the Rising Sun", something Maybelle Carter never did once in the entire Carter Family recorded repertoire.  She's another player who eschewed D position altogether, at least on her recordings.
All best,
Johnm

[EddieD]

While there is no recorded version of this song that I know of, Ernie Hawkins teaches Rev. Gary Davis' Penitentiary Blues on the Blues Guitar of Rev. Gary Davis 2 DVD set. I have always loved this arrangement. I don't know if there being no recording of Rev. Gary Davis playing it excludes it from this topic but it surely is and interesting and fun piece to play in D position standard tuning.  I wonder if anyone on here has a recording of this song or heard the Rev. play it. ..

[frankie]

if you can call his tuning standard!

If Henry Thomas is a D-standard guy, so is Leadbelly...  tuning low is just capoing in reverse!

[banjochris]

if you can call his tuning standard!

If Henry Thomas is a D-standard guy, so is Leadbelly...  tuning low is just capoing in reverse!

That's an excellent point!

[Johnm]

Another one:  Memphis Minnie's "Soo Cow Soo".
All best,
Johnm

[banjochris]

Good point re Leadbelly, Chris.  Another thing about him is that he would sometimes play thumb lead out of D position in standard tuning, as on his version of "House of the Rising Sun", something Maybelle Carter never did once in the entire Carter Family recorded repertoire.  She's another player who eschewed D position altogether, at least on her recordings.

Did Maybelle ever record in anything other than C, G and F (not counting lap-style)?

Also, speaking of Leadbelly, an interesting thread might be African-American players who used thumb-lead on recordings.

[Johnm]

Maybelle had a couple of bluesy tunes out of E position, Chris.

[banjochris]

Maybelle had a couple of bluesy tunes out of E position, Chris.

Ah, that she did, as a trip to your list on Weeniepedia confirms!

[tenderfoot84]

I think william harris' electric chair might be in d. Don't have a guitar to hand. Also big leg blues by john hurt.

Also i thought frank stokes played out of C and G sometimes? No body's business / how long / sweet to mama / nehi mama etc? I think one of joe calicott's prewar tunes is in D too. Fare thee blues?

Envoy? de mon SM-A300FU en utilisant Tapatalk

[Johnm]

Hi David,
Nice to hear from you.  I think William Harris's "Electric Chair Blues" is one of the rare early blues in dropped-D, but his "Bullfrog Blues" was in D position, standard tuning, and is one of the coolest tunes ever in D standard.  "Big Leg Blues" was in D standard, too, as you say.  You're right on the Joe Callicott, too, that's a great one.
I think the point of the earlier Frank Stokes exchange was not that he played everything in D position, standard tuning, but rather that of his tunes played out of D position, all were played in standard tuning as opposed to dropped-D.  You're right, he had a bunch of tunes in G and C positions in standard tuning, and a couple out of E position and A position, too.
All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Robert Pete Williams played a good bit out of D position in standard tuning, and often seemed to reserve it for his absolute funkiest playing, as on "I've Grown So Ugly". 
All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Mattie Delaney played her "Tallahatchie River Blues" out of D position in standard tuning.
All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Here's another "Adventures in . . ." thread moved to the Country Blues Licks and Lessons board.
All best,
Johnm