Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[Prof Scratchy]

In the end, NS, we folk with cloth ears have to trust those with real ears!

[Norfolk Slim]

In the end, NS, we folk with cloth ears have to trust those with real ears!

Enter Mr Miller....

[One-Eyed Ross]

I'm sticking with B flat and hoping I'm right....but it could that I need to break out the Snark and see how bad I'm out of standard...

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Teddy Williams' "Sun Don't Shine" is a tough one, without a doubt.  Indeed, I don't think it is possible to make the determination of playing position/tuning solely on the basis of how things lay out over the I chord, because all of the activity in the left hand over the I chord would happen at the third fret of the fifth and first strings whether you were playing in Spanish or A position in standard tuning!  That's like a definition of a tough identification, as far as I'm concerned.  In such an instance, the identification requires close listening to the IV and V chords, as Frank and Chris mentioned.
   * The playing position for "Sun Don't Shine" is A position in standard tuning as Frank and Chris had it.  The things that happen in the IV and V chords that seal that identification are as follows:  If you listen to the IV chord around 1:37, you can hear that it is voiced as a D chord in standard tuning, and Teddy Williams is doing a thumb roll from his open fourth string to the second fret of the third string, hitting the second fret of the first string, and brushing the third and second strings fretted at the second and third frets, respectively, with his thumb.  The identifications for the V chord are even more conclusive.  At 2:00, Teddy Williams brushes, in the interior strings, the root of the V chord and its third on the next higher string.  In A position standard tuning, those two notes would live at the second fret of the fourth string and the first fret of the third string.  In Spanish, they would live at the seventh fret of the fifth string and the fourth fret of the fourth string, a very non-intuitive and implausible choice--not hand-friendly, that's for sure.  Also, from 2:07--2:08, Teddy Williams goes from the root of the V chord to the root of the IV chord  on the interior strings.  In A position, standard tuning, that involves moving from the second fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string.  In Spanish, it would entail going from the open fourth string (or the seventh fret of the fifth string) to the fifth fret of the fifth string.  In either instance, it ends up being more trouble than would make it a likely choice to play.

"Sun Don't Shine" reminds me of the very first song in this thread, Andrew Dunham's "Sweet Lucy Woman", in that you have to listen to pretty much the entire rendition to get the evidence needed to make a solid playing position/tuning identification.  In general, though, in picking between Spanish and A position in standard tuning, if the player hits a low root in the bass for the IV chord, the playing position is probably A position in standard tuning.  The one exception would be if a player was obviously barring the IV chord at the fifth fret and hitting the root on the fifth string, as in Jesse Wadley's "Alabama Prison Blues" or Joe Callicott's version of "Roll and Tumble".  As Simon pointed out, that's how he was hearing Teddy Williams play his IV chord.
   * It is really hard to say just how Teddy Williams was getting his signature lick, and especially that heavy emphasis on the third string on the second and fourth beats of the measure.  I think part of getting that sound requires the use of an unwound  or plain third string, to get that whangy, piercing tone.  This is my best bet as to how Teddy Williams played the lick.
   The thumb anticipates the downbeat of the lick, striking the open fifth string on the + of beat 4 of the measure preceding the downbeat of the lick.  Teddy Williams does a thumb roll from that open fifth string to the second fret of the fourth string, landing it on beat 1 of the signature lick measure.  On the + of beat 1, he picks the third fret of the first string, choking it immediately after picking it so it has no sustain.
   On beat 2, he keeps his thumb moving towards the treble, and really lands hard on the second fret of the third string, letting it sustain.  On the + of beat two, he brings his thumb back and picks the third fret of the fifth string.
   On beat 3, he pulls off the third fret of the fifth string to the open fifth string, simultaneously picking the second fret of the third string with his finger.  That second fret of the third string that falls on beat three is much weaker than the same note on beats 2 and 4.
   On beat 4, he hits the second fret of the third string with his thumb, letting it sustain (as the rendition goes along, he also brushes the second fret of the second string on beat 4, too).  On the + of beat 4, he goes back to the open fifth string to start the lick again.

Thanks to all who participated in this one.  It's great to see the back-and-forth in the discussion, too.  I sure like this song, and the more I listen to it the more I like it.  I'll try to find another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm     

[Old Man Ned]

Thanks for the detailed explanation John.  I wondered off from the path and got lost in the long grass on this one.  Much appreciated.
L

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Here is a new puzzler for those of you who are interested, and a kind of different one.  The song is "I See God In Everything" as played and sung by E. C. Ball and Orna Mae Ball, with E.C. playing the guitar and Orna Mae the pump organ, I believe (though it may be an accordion).  Here is their performance of the song.



Here are the lyrics, with E. C.'s vocal responses shown parenthetically where they occur.

When I stand and watch the little birds go flying high
Each tiny one (reminds me) re- (of my dear Lord) mind me of the blessed Lord
Evening when I watch the sun set in the Western sky
I see the beau- (the beauty) ty (of my dear Lord0 see the beauty of my Lord

REFRAIN: I see God in everything, on the land and the deep blue sea
In the fields, the meadows, and the pastures green
In the stars that twinkle at night, that big yellow moon
The oldest re- (the wonders) deem (of my dear Lord) wonders of the blessed Lord

SOLO

Shen I watch the rolling waves come dashing to the shore
Each mighty one (reminds me) re (of my dear Lord) minds me of the blessed Lord
When I see the pretty flowers blooming around my door
I see the beau- (the beauty) ty (of my dear Lord) see the beauty of my Lord

REFRAIN: I see God in everything, on the land and the deep blue sea
In the fields and meadows, and the pastures green
In the stars that twinkle at night, that big yellow moon
The oldest re- (the wonders) deem (of my dear Lord) wonders of the blessed Lord

The questions are:
   * What playing position/tuning is E. C. using to play the song?, and
   * What is the chord progression of the song, verse and chorus, expressed in the position that E. C. uses to play the song (NOT in the key in which the song sounds)?

Please don't post any answers until Sunday, October 5, and I'll post answers on Monday, October 6.  Please use only your ears and instruments to figure out your answers.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
It looks like Roi is the only responder  on "I See God In Eveything", and he identified the playing position and chord progressions of the song, verse and chorus, right on the money.  Well done, Roi! 

One interesting aspect of the phrasing of the song is that in the verse, each line ends with a single six-beat measure to allow for Orna's response line followed by two "breath catcher" beats before starting the next line.  The phrasing for the chorus is more square, utilizing four beat measures throughout, with the exception of the very last measure.  As is common practice in Bluegrass songs that have "dwells" in the sung verses, the extra beats are jettisoned for E. C.'s solo, which squares up everything in four-beat measures.

I will find and post another puzzler soon.
All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've got another puzzler for any interested takers.  The song is "Smokey Mountain Blues", performed by Wallace Chains, who turns out to be the first repeat performer in this thread.  Back on page 7 of the thread, his performance of "My Poor Mother Keeps On Praying For Me" was used for a puzzler.  He was a very distinctive guitarist, recorded at a prison in Texas, and seems to have been one of those players who covered a lot of ground in terms of what he was able to do, positions he was comfortable working in, etc.  Here is "Smokey Mountain Blues":



I said, these smokey mountains, they are dangerous place to so
Said, I'm goin' up on that mountain and knock up on my baby's door

Now, and I've got a woman and she lives way out up on that hill, oh Lord,
I've got a woman, she lives way out up on that hill
She may drive me away, man, but I don't b'lieve she will

I'm goin' up on that mountain and knock up on my baby's door
I'm goin' up on that mountain and knock up on my baby's door
And if she drive me away, I know she don't want me no more

I'm goin' up on that mountain, and I may not come back down
I'm goin' up on that mountain, and I may not come back down
You can tell all my friends I'm on my last go-round

Baby, you may never see my smiling face no more
Baby, you may never see my smiling face no more
But if you see my baby, tell her that I hate to go

And my girl got a diamond, shine like the rising sun
And my girl got a diamond, shine like the rising sun
She said, "You come back to Texas, Lord, man, I'll buy you one."

The questions on "Smokey Mountain Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Wallace Chains use to play the song?
   * Where in the form does his rendition start?
   * Where does he finger the two chords he plays at the beginning of his rendition, from :00--:02 and from :03--:05
   * There does he finger the three positions he plays over his I chord, from :20--:29?
   * Where does he finger the V7 chord he plays from 1:06--1:07?
   * Where does he fret the running passage from 1:08--1:10?

Answer as few or as many of the questions as you care to, to participate, and please use only your ears and instrument to figure out your answers.  Please don't post any answers until the morning of Wednesday, October 8.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Any other takers on the Wallace Chains cut?  Ain't but one question been answered so far.
All best,
Johnm

[Old Man Ned]

I've had very little time to listen to this but here goes....
Playing out of G in regular tuning
Rendition starts on the IV chord (C/C7)

Where does he finger the two chords he plays at the beginning of his rendition, from :00--:02 and from :03--:05?
Not sure but may come back to this in a sec..

Where does he finger the three positions he plays over his I chord, from :20--:29?  plays D shape up at the 7th fret, slips down a fret, back up again and then moves the shape up to the 10th.

Where does he finger the V7 chord he plays from 1:06--1:07?
Sounds like it may be open first string, 1st fret 2nd str; 2nd fret 3rd str but then does he slide up to a D7 (C7 shape moved up 2 frets) where he can reach the run
for the passage from 1:08--1:10?
This goes 1st string: 6th fret to 5 to 3; 2nd string 6th fret to 3rd; 3rd string 5th fret hammer from 3rd to 4th fret; 4th string 5th fret.

Back to the two chords he plays at the beginning of his rendition.....Nah....I'm struggling with this....first notes an E (4th string)? so I'll go for a standard C but not sure where he fingers the next bit.

Not got a lot of faith in the above.  My ears have been like mush this week.

[mr mando]

I first dabbled around with G6 tuning, but the sound of the IV chord made me change my mind, so I basically agree with roig (how could I not with a high professional ).
Q: What playing Position/tuning did Wallace Chains use to play the song?
A: Standard tuning down a whole step/ A position
Q: Where in the form does his rendition start?
A: on bar 5 (IV chord in the 12 bar form)
Q: Where does he finger the two chords he plays at the beginning of his rendition, from :00--:02 and from :03--:05
A: x-x-4-2-1-0 and 1-x-0-2-1-1
Q: There does he finger the three positions he plays over his I chord, from :20--:29?
A: 0-0-x-9-10-9, 0-0-x-8-9-8 and 0-0-x-12-13-12
Q: Where does he finger the V7 chord he plays from 1:06--1:07?
A: 0-2-2-4-3-4
Q: Where does he fret the running passage from 1:08--1:10?
A: String/Fret (starting on beat 1+): 1+:st1/f8, 2:st1/f7, 2+:st1/f5, 3+:st1/o, 4:st3/f5, 4+:st2/f2, 1:st3/f2

[Pan]

Hi all.

After a very busy time moving us to a new apartment, I finally seem to have some time for music! Here's what I'm hearing on this one.

* What playing position/tuning did Wallace Chains use to play the song?

At first I was thinking G position in standard tuning, but since there appears to be a low fifth on the 6th string, and the root on the 5th string rings out when he plays an I chord in upper positions, I?ll agree with Roi on A position, standard.   

* Where in the form does his rendition start?

Sounds to me like he?s starting on the IV chord, on bar 5 in the 12 bar blues form.

* Where does he finger the two chords he plays at the beginning of his rendition, from :00--:02 and from :03--:05

I think I?m hearing a IV9 chord: X-X-4-5-5-5, followed by a IVm7, X-X-0-7-6-8, with maybe a change in the bass, from the open D string to the 7th fret D-string.
 

* Where does he finger the three positions he plays over his I chord, from :20--:29?

I?m hearing the two lowest string being alternated open, on 4th string is muted, I believe, and on the top three strings you have 9-8-9; to 8-7-8; and then 12-10-12.

* Where does he finger the V7 chord he plays from 1:06--1:07?

I?ll suggest something like 0-X-2-4-3-4.

* Where does he fret the running passage from 1:08--1:10?

Starting on the 5th position, from a D7 chord: 0-0-0-5-7-8, then a walk down on the top string to 7th and 5th frets, then changing postion while playing the open 1st string, followed by the 2nd string frets  1 to 2, and then followed by the long A chord.

Looking forward for the verdict

Cheers

Pan

[One-Eyed Ross]

What with grandkids, dogs, herself and all the household chores, about as far as I got with this is G, standard tuning.  The opening on the IV chord others say sounds right, but that is just parroting their remarks.  Life sure gets in the way of living, sometimes.

[Prof Scratchy]

Sorry I haven't had time for a go at this one! Have been frantically busy in preparation for bnemerov visit to Scratchy Towers (if he ever gets here, having missed his connection). History repeats, Johnm....

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Thanks for all of the responses, including those from Ross and Scratchy who had time constraints that prevented them from being able to participate fully.  Here are the answers to the questions on Wallace Chains' "Smokey Mountain Blues". 
   *  Playing position was A in standard tuning, though tuned a full step low, as several of you had it.
   *  He does begin playing in the fourth bar of his first verse, over his IV chord, once again as a number of you had it.
   *  The two chords he opens up with I found to be real ear-catchers, and unusual.  He begins with a D7(9) chord voiced X-X-4-5-3-0.  The notes make it a D9 chord as Pan had it, but Chains very craftily uses the open first string to get his 9 note.  He uses this basic configuration for all of his IV7 chords throughout the song, though at least once he frets his first string at the fifth fret, giving himself a D7 chord voiced X-X-4-5-3-5.  The second chord is an F chord voiced on the four interior strings, X-3-3-2-1-X.  Hitting that chord with the C note in the bass really gives it an interesting dark color.  For the remainder of the song, he plays a more conventional F chord, just fingering the top four strings and sometimes hitting the open fifth string against it, X-0-3-2-1-1.  The use of the bVI chord, F in the key of A, has much the same effect as going to a IV minor chord.  In his later verses, Chains really leans on the F# in the D7 chord, the fourth fret of the fourth string, resolving down into the F natural note in the F chord, at the third fret of the fourth string.
   * The three positions from :20--:29 are just as mr mando had them:  Open sixth and fifth strings, 9-10-9 on the first strings resolving down by half-step to 8-9-8, back up to 9-10-9 and then up three frets to 12-13-12. 
   *  The V7 (E7) chord that he fingers from 1:06--1:07 is one that he uses throughout his rendition.  It's a neat sort of hybrid fingering that I've seen Honeyboy Edwards and Bill Broonzy do on film: X-2-0-1-3-4.  In that measure, his thumb is hitting only on beats one and three, and he's brushing the second fret of the fifth string and the open fourth string.  He brushes the top two strings on beat 2 and 2+, and on 4+ he slides from the third fret of the second string to the seventh fret of the second string, starting the run that follows in the next measure.
   *  The run that he plays from 1:08--1:10 in bar 10 of the form is as follows:
     On beat one, he brushes the sixth and fifth strings open
     On 1+, he picks the 8th fret of the first string
     On beat 2, he picks the seventh fret of the first string and the seventh fret of the third string simultaneously
     On 2+, he picks the fifth fret of the first string, tying it into
     Beat 3, he hits the fifth fret of the third string, with the fifth fret of the first string still sustaining
     On 3+, he hits the open first string
     On 4, he hits either the first fret of the second string or the fifth fret of the third string, as mr mando had it
     On 4+, he picks the second fret of the second string
     On beat one of the eleventh measure of the form, he pinches the second fret of the third string against the open fifth string in the bass.
   Mr mando had this run spot on with the exception of the notes falling on the seventh and fifth frets of the third string.  They really give the run a neat sound, harmonizing it that way.  This run reminds me a lot of one that Otis Harris played on "You Like My Loving", which I know a number of you are familiar with and may have played.

Wallace Chains certainly was a spiffy guitar player, with some neat original sounds and clever ways of getting around on the neck.  A position in standard tuning was very heavily mined by the early Texas blue players, so it is especially impressive in a way to hear a player from there doing so many things that don't really sound like anybody else.  He was an inventive musician.

Thanks to all who participated, and I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.

All best,
Johnm