WeenieCampbell.com
Country Blues => Weenie Campbell Main Forum => Topic started by: Johnm on April 01, 2012, 10:30:35 AM
-
Hi all,
I've been listening a lot lately to Document 6044, "Jesse Thomas--Complete Recorded Works, 1948-1958". It is a fascinating and varied disc, and one of the things about it that has struck me is how high a percentage of the music Jesse Thomas recorded in that period could never have been predicted based on his earliest recordings, made when he was still in his teens. On the later recordings, Jesse Thomas does some relatively big band numbers on which he does electric single-string soloing much in the mode of T-Bone Walker and smaller ensemble work on electric guitar, as well as solo pieces on electric and acoustic guitars. The one aspect of Jesse Thomas's playing that seems to have remained consistent from his recorded beginnings through this later period is the crispness of his right hand attack.
Hearing how Jesse Thomas's music changed over time made me realize how relatively rarely that happens among Country Blues musicians. The great majority of them, at least based on their recordings, remain musically pretty much where they were when they first arrived on the scene. This is by no means a weakness--quite often it is a strength, for it shows a highly developed sense of musical identity and how things should sound. But the relative rarity of changing one's sound with the times and continuing to evolve one's chordal vocabulary, rhythmic sense, or comfort level playing in different ensemble settings made me try to think of other players, who like Jesse Thomas, continued to evolve and change their sounds over their careers.
One player who seemed to fall very strongly into this category is Robert Nighthawk, who changed not only his sound, but his name. His earliest recordings, as Robert Lee McCoy, showcase a nice guitarist and exceptionally adept harmonica player off of a rack. Who could have seen from those beginnings that McCoy would evolve into Robert Nighthawk, arguably the greatest electric blues slide player ever, as well as an exceptionally sophisticated conventionally-fretted electric blues guitarist?
With many Country Blues players, it's impossible to assess whether or not they changed with the times and continued to evolve in their music, because we have such a narrow window into what they did. Garfield Akers is an example of someone for whom there simply is not enough data on even to guess intelligently as to where he went with his music over time. Four titles recorded only, all with a very similar sound--one would think that that was probably "his sound", for good and all, but there's no way of knowing for sure.
I was wondering if folks could think of other players in the style whose music continued to evolve and change notably over the course their careers? I'd be interested to hear of other such players you can think of.
All best,
Johnm
-
As a side light, in one of the Thomas tags there's a letter reproduced from him thanking Johnny Parth for sending a royalty cheque in respect of Document 6044 CD sales.
(haven't time to trawl them, sorry)
-
Well John, I think Big Bill has to be up there as one of the most adaptable artists - from early hot flat-picking and fiddle playing (great) in the very early 30s to suave Bluebird Beat material, through to becoming a doyen of the post war folkies.
I also think of Charlie McCoy as a remarkable adaptor, from that wonderful Tommy Johnson Mississippi style guitar accompaniment to very slick city style mandolin playing some years later.
If it's true that Will Weldon of the MJB really was Casey Bill in later years, then that has to rank as one of the biggest style evolutions in my opinion.
Gerry
-
I'll state the first two names that immediately came to mind, but you might use them as examples of what you're not thinking about: Muddy Waters and Big Bill Broonzy.
The acoustic-to-electric transition is obvious for Muddy--the document (DOCD 5146) CD "First Recording Sessions" is great because it contains all of his Lomax field recordings and his very first Chicago sessions--what a change between '42 and '46! At the same time, he might not be an example of what you're talking about because he really retained the essence of his stripped-down Delta approach in his electric recordings.
For Big Bill, it seems to me that he built such a large repertoire over his career that he could switch between different styles depending on how he read the audience sitting in front of him.
So I'll start the conversation with those two, see where it goes.
Lindy
-
I tend to admire the guys that retain their old sound but make it still work after many decades like Big Joe Williams or Frank Edwards
Yank Rachell is one who took to making more modern and rock influenced stuff after being rediscovered (I believe he also made a down-home guitar album in the 60s but I haven't heard it)
Josh White completely changed his approach - his later songs profundity might've been enhanced but I dunno about his musicianship
Sonny Boy I. shook off his jug band derived sound for a jump blues combo where the harp replaced the brass section
To some extent Fred McDowell changed his repertoire and playing style to suit the electric guitar
-
Josh White completely changed his approach - his later songs profundity might've been enhanced but I dunno about his musicianship
Well, a lot of that was a severe wrist injury.
As for people who radically transformed their style, I'd list Robert Jr. Lockwood. From his early country blues recordings, you'd never have guessed he'd move on to the jazzy electric chording he was doing by the late 50s.
-
Hi all,
It's interesting to hear folks' perspectives. I think I would have put Muddy Waters and Fred McDowell in the "same from beginning to end category".
All best,
Johnm
-
Big Bill Broonzy is what I also first thought of while reading this thread.
How about Lonnie Johnson? He changed his whole approach on the guitar, from fingerpicking to flatpicking, quite late on his long career, not to even mention the stylistical changes.
Many people here might prefere his fingerpicking earlier career, but I've always also admired how he can alone carry a tune with his melodic single string lines, when needed. Just like a jazz horn player. And he always had a most beatiful tone and touch on the instrument, whatever approach he used.
Cheers
Pan
-
I look at people like Big Bill Broonzy, Memphis Minnie, and Muddy Waters as people who didn't change the way they played to keep up with the times, but rather changed the setting in which they played. By setting, I mean one or more of several things: instrument (acoustic to electric), accompanists (solo or small acoustic band to electric band, adding drums, horns, etc.) and repertoire (Big Bill going from country blues to hokum to urban blues to folk).
One thing about Muddy - he didn't change his guitar playing much from his first Aristocrat session to his last one for Columbia, but he sure did change the way he sang.
Thinking about people who changed the way they played, Casey Bill Weldon would have to be on the list. He didn't have a long recording career, but if you listen to him a lot, you get the feeling that he was always picking up new techniques. The melodic and harmonic conception of his fills and solos on a song like Guitar Swing is miles away from what he was doing on his first session less than three years earlier.
-
I agree with you, Pan, that Lonnie Johnson is a very good candidate for this category. The one thing I have wondered about with Lonnie for over thirty years is if he was ever, even on his early records, a conventional fingerpicker. I have long thought that he was a hybrid picker, using a flatpick and fingers to do his "fingerpicked" pieces. Use of a flatpick by Lonnie would go a long way towards explaining the very fast and forceful runs with which he interspersed his early instrumentals, and would also explain his incredible tone production, especially on songs like "Levee Camp Moan", on which he only plays single lines. Also, I'm dubious as to how he could have been heard playing with the Ellington Orchestra without using a pick to play
If Lonnie did in fact switch from being a conventional (though incredibly adept) fingerpicker on his early recordings to being a flatpicker exclusively on his post-rediscovery recordings, he would be the rarest of the rare: a player who completely revamped his picking technique after a long and successful career. I don't know of a single player who has done that, so I'm inclined to think that he played with a pick all along. (Incidentally, I've asked Ari Eisinger what he thought about this idea and he had no opinion one way or the other, for what it's worth).
All best,
Johnm
-
I categorize artists in terms of dogs and cats, which is another way of saying "other directed" and "inner directed." A Dog Musician says to the audience, "Tell me what you want to hear, and I'll perform it." A Cat Musician says, "Here's some music I like, and maybe you'll like it, too." A Dog Musician tends to treat music as product, while a Cat Musician tends to treat music as art. Needless to say, Dog Musicians are usually more successful, although there are enough of the Cat variety (The Grateful Dead come to mind, of course, and, more recently, the Carolina Chocolate Drops) to give hope to musicians trying to be serious artists.
Both types of musicians can change their styles and materials -- the only difference is who determines those changes, the public or the artist.
Of course, any musician who stubbornly sticks to a genre, such as country blues, is going to be mostly cat, because it's a niche market. Musicians who stubbornly stick with, say, Cool Jazz, are even more feline than blues musicians.
But I'll give anyone benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise, which means that I'm a lot more likely to put some money in the guitar case of a busker than to buy a best-selling CD.
Lyle
-
I agree with you, Pan, that Lonnie Johnson is a very good candidate for this category. The one thing I have wondered about with Lonnie for over thirty years is if he was ever, even on his early records, a conventional fingerpicker. I have long thought that he was a hybrid picker, using a flatpick and fingers to do his "fingerpicked" pieces. Use of a flatpick by Lonnie would go a long way towards explaining the very fast and forceful runs with which he interspersed his early instrumentals, and would also explain his incredible tone production, especially on songs like "Levee Camp Moan", on which he only plays single lines. Also, I'm dubious as to how he could have been heard playing with the Ellington Orchestra without using a pick to play
If Lonnie did in fact switch from being a conventional (though incredibly adept) fingerpicker on his early recordings to being a flatpicker exclusively on his post-rediscovery recordings, he would be the rarest of the rare: a player who completely revamped his picking technique after a long and successful career. I don't know of a single player who has done that, so I'm inclined to think that he played with a pick all along. (Incidentally, I've asked Ari Eisinger what he thought about this idea and he had no opinion one way or the other, for what it's worth).
All best,
Johnm
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. It does seem odd that anyone would completetly change his approach on the instrument, unless a hand injury or something else absolutely forces him to do so.
Cheers
Pan
-
How about tampa Red as a candidate for this? I'm thinking of his acoustic slide material versus his accompaniments for Big Maceo on electric guitar.
-
When you check Lonnie Johnson's YouTube video's of the 60ies you will notice he flatpicks everything with downstrokes....spooky!
Has anyone compared Clifford Gibson's pre- and poststwar recordings?
I don't have this cd but I'm curious
http://www.document-records.com/fulldetails.asp?ProdID=DOCD-5619 (http://www.document-records.com/fulldetails.asp?ProdID=DOCD-5619)
-
When you check Lonnie Johnson's YouTube video's of the 60ies you will notice he flatpicks everything with downstrokes....spooky!
Has anyone compared Clifford Gibson's pre- and poststwar recordings?
I don't have this cd but I'm curious
http://www.document-records.com/fulldetails.asp?ProdID=DOCD-5619 (http://www.document-records.com/fulldetails.asp?ProdID=DOCD-5619)
I don't have the CD either, but his track from 1951 can be heard on YouTube:
Clifford Gibson Sneaky Groundhog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRILW2JJqkE#)
None of the 60's tracks are on YouTube, apparently.
Cheers
Pan
-
None of the 60's tracks are on YouTube, apparently.
I have a 70s cassette of the four songs recorded for Bobbin in St Louis (as Grandpappy Gibson) on which he's accompanied by piano, bass and drum. My abiding memory is one of disappointment but that was 40 years ago, I may have mellowed.
:-\
-
Hi all,
I suppose the provenance of that supposed Clifford Gibson "Sneaky Groundhog" has been very thoroughly checked, but I have a very hard time believing that that is the same singer and guitarist who recorded as Clifford Gibson in the '20s. The voice is different and the right hand touch and tone is completely different, and sloppy, which Clifford Gibson never was on his early recordings. If it is the same person, he certainly did change with the times, and not for the better!
All best,
Johnm
-
Hi all,
I suppose the provenance of that supposed Clifford Gibson "Sneaky Groundhog" has been very thoroughly checked, but I have a very hard time believing that that is the same singer and guitarist who recorded as Clifford Gibson in the '20s.
Johnm
Good Question. That and the other title are from acetates made at Baul Studios in St Louis and first saw light of day in 1980s on a Danish Blue Time LP compilation. I t-h-i-n-k it was Mike Rowe or Bill Greensmith who unearthed them in 70s.
-
I know that Rowe got some Baul acetates from Big Joe Williams, and found some others in Chicago.
pbl
-
If it's true that Will Weldon of the MJB really was Casey Bill in later years, then that has to rank as one of the biggest style evolutions in my opinion.
I would have agreed and until recently I thought it quite possible, as a chronological listen to CBW shows how his instrumental abilities increase and expand as his recording career progresses. But recently I saw (I'm fairly sure it was on the pre-war blues list) evidence that Will Weldon of Memphis died before Casey Bill Weldon started recording. So it would have been a really dramatic career switch.
Al Y
-
If it's true that Will Weldon of the MJB really was Casey Bill in later years, then that has to rank as one of the biggest style evolutions in my opinion.
I would have agreed and until recently I thought it quite possible, as a chronological listen to CBW shows how his instrumental abilities increase and expand as his recording career progresses. But recently I saw (I'm fairly sure it was on the pre-war blues list) evidence that Will Weldon of Memphis died before Casey Bill Weldon started recording. So it would have been a really dramatic career switch.
Al Y
I wonder if it's possible for you to post the relevant info here, when you remember where you found it?
-
But recently I saw (I'm fairly sure it was on the pre-war blues list) evidence that Will Weldon of Memphis died before Casey Bill Weldon started recording. So it would have been a really dramatic career switch.
Well remembered Al.
Jim O'Neal researched this for the Mississippi Blues Trail Project and reported that:
Will Weldon is in the Tennessee, Deaths and Burials Index, 1874-1955 at
ancestry.com and also in the Shelby County site
(http://register.shelby.tn.us/index.php (http://register.shelby.tn.us/index.php)) , which is a free
online database where you can download death certificates. Note that his
occupation is listed as musician, with an address on Beale St. (I also found
JimJackson in the Shelby County death index.) I shared the Weldon info with Bob
Eagle, who found a listing for the family in the Sunflower County,
Mississippi, census in 1900. We (and others) have been trying to pin down Casey
Bill Weldon for years, and we ordered a likely-looking Social Security
application for a William Cecil Weldon, who turned out to be white, born in
Kentucky. (Just to save someone else the trouble in case you see the entry in
the Social Security Death Index for William Weldon, SSN: 425-07-2239 , Last
Residence: Memphis, Born: 26 Apr 1903, Died: Feb 1970, SSN issued:
Mississippi, before 1951.) The information in the SSDI entries is often
differentthan that entered on the original Social Security applications, which can only
be obtained by paying a search fee to the Social Security Administration.
Thanks to the Mississippi Blues Trail I have been able to obtain quite a
number of these original applications, and these, combined with census,
military, and other data, have yielded enough information to call for revisions
in the standard bios of many artists. I'll be publishing some of this soon
in Living Blues.
Back to Will Weldon, here's the entry in the Tennessee, Deaths and Burials
Index, 1874-1955:
Name: Will Weldon
Birth Date: abt 1906
Birth Place: Grenada, Miss
Age: 28
Death Date: 30 Apr 1934
Death Place: Memphis, Shelby, Tennessee
Burial Date: 2 May 1934
Cemetery Name: Mt Carmel
Gender: Male
Race: Colored (Black)
Marital Status: Single
Street Address: 205 Beale
Occupation: Musician
Father's Name: Will Weldon
Father's Birth Place: Mississippi
Mother's Name: Adeline Burt
Mother's Birth Place: Mississippi
FHL Film Number: 1876812
-
That's very interesting and clears that up. Thanks for posting.
Gerry
-
That's very interesting and clears that up. Thanks for posting.
Weenie resources aim to please. ;)
-
Yes, thanks for keeping track of such things, Bunker Hill, I think it keeps us all on our toes. It's wonderful the way you can access such a variety of information.
All best,
Johnm
-
Yes, thanks for keeping track of such things, Bunker Hill, I think it keeps us all on our toes. It's wonderful the way you can access such a variety of information.
All best,
Johnm
As someone once stated in respect of seekers of knowledge - long before the internet was invented - "it's all out there you, just got to know where to look". In my case it's just the former university librarian coming into his own.
-
Hi all,
I suppose the provenance of that supposed Clifford Gibson "Sneaky Groundhog" has been very thoroughly checked, but I have a very hard time believing that that is the same singer and guitarist who recorded as Clifford Gibson in the '20s. The voice is different and the right hand touch and tone is completely different, and sloppy, which Clifford Gibson never was on his early recordings. If it is the same person, he certainly did change with the times, and not for the better!
All best,
Johnm
The guitar accompaniment reminds me of late Memphis Minnie and Little Son Joe, especially the rhythm. Maybe he was emulating success.
-
Nobody seems to have mentioned Curley Weaver - major alteration in style ca. 1930, from what his mother taught him (and the Hicks brothers) to the then burgeoning ragtime-based Piedmont approach. Rollin' with the times, commercially speaking!
Peter B.
-
Hi all,
I've been listening quite a lot lately to Big Joe Williams, and hearing and really paying attention to some of his recordings from the '50s that he did for Lillian McMurtry on the Trumpet label made me feel that he falls, surprisingly for me, into the "changing with the times" camp. Joe's two cuts, "Mama Don't Allow Me" and "Delta Blues", recorded on September 25, 1951 in Jackson, Mississippi are covers of, respectively, John Lee Hooker's hits "Boogie Chillen" and "Hobo Blues". They are really excellent covers, but covers, none the less, and seem a solid indication of Joe's intent to stay current with what blues audiences were listening to then. Listening to these cuts and others of Joe's from this post-War but pre-discovery period, when he was playing electric guitar, has been an ear-opening experience, especially since I never really listened to these cuts carefully before. They are very, very strong, and it is a treat to hear Joe on an electric guitar. You might want to seek out these cuts if you enjoy Joe's music, and his music from this period is unfamiliar to you. They can be found on the JSP set, "Big Joe Williams and the Stars or Mississippi Blues", if it is still available.
All best,
Johnm
-
John -
Check out his VeeJay sides, and the tests for Baul in St. Louis! Keep up with the times, or die tryin'!
pbl
-
Thanks for the tip, Peter B. I will keep my eyes open for those sides.
All best,
Johnm
-
Here's a link from January to Big Joe Williams in concert via Prof Scratchy, which I though was amazing. Is almost as if he reverses the vocal and guitar, lots of guitar solos in this if I remember correctly.
http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=9147.msg77114#msg77114 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=9147.msg77114#msg77114)
-
John, if you'd like to hear Big Joe play an electric (and well amplified!) guitar with great abandon and unfettered imagination, try to find "Hand Me Down My Old Walking Stick," an album he cut in '68 or '69. It's one of my favorites, and was reportedly one of Big Joe's, as well. From what I've read, Joe played electric guitar more regularly than his "rediscovery" recordings would indicate -- and apparently enjoyed the sonic possibilities. I read somewhere (will have to track it down) that he was seen playing with a pie tin and an empty beer can dangling in front of his amp. Goodness! At any rate, the tracks on this album show Joe playing with tremendous inventiveness; even the old chestnuts sound inspired.
-
John, if you'd like to hear Big Joe play an electric (and well amplified!) guitar with great abandon and unfettered imagination, try to find "Hand Me Down My Old Walking Stick," an album he cut in '68 or '69. It's one of my favorites, and was reportedly one of Big Joe's, as well. From what I've read, Joe played electric guitar more regularly than his "rediscovery" recordings would indicate -- and apparently enjoyed the sonic possibilities. I read somewhere (will have to track it down) that he was seen playing with a pie tin and an empty beer can dangling in front of his amp. Goodness! At any rate, the tracks on this album show Joe playing with tremendous inventiveness; even the old chestnuts sound inspired.
Jeff, recorded in London 1968 whilst here with that years AFBF. I think the London Blues Society were behind the session and subsequent LP. I'll see what the sleeve notes say. The record can be viewed at Stefan's BJW discography, item 67, 1969.
-
Hi all,
The footage from Berea College and listening to "Buddy Moss-Atlanta Blues Legend" on Biograph have combined to paint the picture of a Country Blues player who very much changed with the times and continued to grow and evolve. The single string work that Buddy utilizes in these later performance situations had no precedent in the Blues community which he came up in. When you think about it, utilizing a single string approach to play blues, rather than a more chordal approach, presumes either an ensemble setting, or in solo performances, such a familiarity with the style on the part of the audience that they will be able to stay oriented to the phrasing and sense of the music in the absence of anything more than very intermittent use of chords. At least on the basis of the Berea performances, it seems like you would have to concede that the single string approach worked quite well for Buddy in solo performance situations. It makes one wish that the album he recorded for Columbia in his post-rediscovery period could be heard; unfortunately, it was never released.
All best,
Johnm
-
Hi John,
In reading through an earlier thread on Moss it says that the first 7 tracks on the Atlanta Blues Legend cd were 7 of the 10 songs from the Columbia session...3 songs from Columbia don't seem to have been released (Mamie, Chesterfield, and Wee Midnight Hours)...furtunately other versions of these are available on ABL, George Mitchell Collection, and / or Berea's video and audio recordings.
There is some similarly amazing single string work on Document volume 3 (where there is a marked increase in the number of instrumental solos in Buddy's recordings) but they are all done with another guitarists vs Berea's solo format.
To me the single string aspect seems to present itself strongly (Joy Rag, Struggle Buggy) when he returns from his "time away" in the mid to late 30s vs his pre-incarceration work...might he have been influenced by artists of that later period who might have had a more advanced single string bag of tricks, maybe Lonnie Johnson?
Thanks again for all the insights :-)
Scott
-
Could be some impact of Scrapper Blackwell on late 40s Buddy Moss. He was, as Miles Davis might describe, "a motherfucker" in so many ways not just musical. He was brilliant and is one of the deepest regrets I have in "missing" him... god knows I tried and got THAT close to recording him.
Peter B.