Topic: 'A World Unknown'

[Mr.OMuck]

Well....
I've become rather obsessed with this tune of late, so with due trepidation about getting this started again:
I've been hearing something like "Wilano" in the world unknown place.
Just tonight i tried googling various phonetic spelling of what I think I'm hearing and here's what I came up with:

"The Cherokee are a Native Americans in the United States people originally from the Southeastern United States . They are linguistically connected to speakers of the Iroquoian language....
 to the south have added to historical confusion in writer's references regarding identification of the tribe. The ancient North South/East West trade trails met at what is today Max Meadows, Virginia. In addition to their own language of Tla Wilano, the individuals of the tribe were said to have spoken many different languages including Monican, Shawnee, Cherokee, Powatan, and even the languages of the Six Nations to the north who also came south to trade and to hunt at the sacred hunting grounds, a strip of land with vast meadows stretching from Draper Valley westward to the Cumberland Gap
Cumberland Gap"

Then there is the mention of the six Nations....hmmmmm?

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Ani-Stohini_slash_Unami

I don't know anything about this site or if its a reputable source of info. Interesting coincidence if nothing else.

[Stuart]

It has crossed my mind that what we hear is a place name that is obscure by modern standards (--possibly not), but would have been familiar to many in Charley's locale. There may have be some distance between the formal spelling and Charley's pronunciation (as phonetically transcribed), thus we haven't been able to match them up (yet). You may be on to something. Only time (and some luck) will tell. It might be worth looking at maps of the region from the early 20th century--the kind that show virtually everything--if such maps exist.

[Mr.OMuck]

Also Choppin' (or a Polish composer?  ) seems a clear allusion to phucking, or the absence thereof and the inevitable Onanistic flying of "chips".

[waxwing]

Very interesting.

But I do think, if you are looking for phonetically similar place names or words, that you should also search for names without the 'W' sound. I think it is very difficult to sing "to ill" without an elide, which produces a 'W' sound. Yes, you can force a glottal stop in there, but that's not very consistent with Charley's singing style.

So to be thorough, I think phonetic representations of Ilano should be included along side Wilano in your searches.

See discussion of Charley's pronunciation of Shelbey, Illinois above.

Wax

[maddoggirl]

First post here - formal intro to come, hopefully 

Anyway, I just watched a YouTube vid of this song and I'm as certain as I can be that he sings 'Illinois'. If I hadn't seen this discussion first, I wouldn't even have considered it could be anything else. 'Worlds unknown' is a nice image, but the word, to me, is in line with the usual rural enunciation of country bluesmen. However, let the debate rage on 

[Slack]

Welcome to WeenieCampbell Maddoggirl  (we hope you are not rabid  )

FYI, the version that they are trying to decipher is Charlie Patton's original tune - which was well before YouTube (unfortunately, as it would solve a lot of problems! )

[maddoggirl]

Welcome to WeenieCampbell Maddoggirl  (we hope you are not rabid  )

FYI, the version that they are trying to decipher is Charlie Patton's original tune - which was well before YouTube (unfortunately, as it would solve a lot of problems! )

Don't worry, fella - I meant the Patton original. In fact, the video I watched was a rather odd one from Dailymotion where they had manipulated poor Charley's photo to make it look as if he were singing... Except it didn't, really.

And thank you for the welcome! I've a rather unusual background for an enthusiast, so I'll be sure and introduce myself better sometime soon. But one of the things about me is that I can't resist throwing in my two cents 

[Parlor Picker]

Sounds like "Illinois" to me.

[Stuart]

I'd like to hear the "un-remastered" original 78s of this one. Sometimes I think that the remasters are like edited texts, certainly more refined, but another step (or steps) removed from the original.

If you saw the thread over at IGS, it looks like Joe Bussard has one.

http://www.guitarseminars.com/gs/viewtopic.php?t=5045&sid=66437f934a8813c8db43ba4a4a2fd1a4

Anyone live near Joe?

[uncle bud]

More grist for the mill in this far-too-long thread.  In one of the versions of Mary Don't You Weep from Leadbelly's Last Sessions (the longer take), he sings

Mary wept and Martha mourned
Mary's goin' to the world unknown
Because Pharoah's army got drownded
Oh Mary don't you weep

As Wax points out way back in the nether pages of this thread, just because it appears one place in one song, doesn't confirm it's place elsewhere. But I'm still always interested in lines making their way into more than one song. And as with many of the people who posted in this thread, 'world unknown' has been my least favoured candidate for whatever the hell Patton is singing. But it's interesting to see it in Leadbelly's verse in a very similar construct - "goin' to a world unknown"/"Goin' away, to a world unknown". And as Doug mentioned way back when as well, 'a/the world unknown' is a phrase appearing in several hymns, though the examples cited do not have the same lyric structure, just that phrase.

A very quick and non-exhaustive google on other versions of Mary Don't You Weep does not turn up this exact line as it appear in Leadbelly's version. But I wonder if it does turn up in other versions somewhere? Mississippi John Hurt sings "Mary weeped, Martha mourned, all around God's holy throne". Of the several recordings I have of this song by different singers and groups, few verses are the same and cumulatively there is quite a lot of verses. It seems the form of the song welcomed all sorts of variation in all the two-line verses that precede the refrain and chorus.

Anyway, like I said, just more grist for the mill.

[Stuart]

Thanks for the additional info, Andrew.

Well, at least "world unknown" is attested in another song. But even if it wasn't, IMHO whatever Charley sang in "Down the Dirt Road" is still an open question if we are basing ourselves solely on what we hear--for me, anyway.

[LB]

Sorry to bump this back up but didn't he live through the times of the big war and didn't he also sing in the same song about overseas blues? I don't have much trouble hearing the lyrics this way, if indeed he is saying "world unknown" and "overseas blues". One thing I often do is pass lyrics by my fellow players locally that are black. They often hear something much more subtle and accurately. I've had them solve a few before they nailed instantly. Be interesting to hear someone from that area and what they'd say, Especially someone very old and preferably black.

[maddoggirl]

I never quite feel entirely sure, but to me his enunciation just doesn't contain either the 'r', 'l' or 'd' sounds needed for him to be saying 'world'. There's a deinfite (w)illanoooo going on. It's not quite satisfying as 'Illinois' either, though, which is the guess I would go with, yet I still feel the answer is out there 

[Mr.OMuck]

If you look this up on Google Maps it starts to look like a very good prospect. Geographically close to where Patton would habitually be rambling and right off highway 55.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winona,_Mississippi

I'm goin' aw-ayayay to Winaaanonaaa..

[Stuart]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winona,_Mississippi