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Great piece - Old Country Stomp. Thomas apparently used to play a lot of kids' birthday parties. So did Blind Willie McTell - John Fahey, on Henry Thomas

Author Topic: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved  (Read 2198 times)

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Offline Hardluckchild

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Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« on: October 22, 2022, 04:32:58 AM »
Hello, everyone. I believe I've done something that many others feel they've done- solved the Willie Brown mystery. If I sound like a pretentious ass, please disregard what I just said and read only the following >:D:I listened to Future Blues and M&O Blues, and then Mississippi Bottom Blues and Rowdy Blues. M&O Blues and Future Blues display a man with gruff and coarse vocals. Kid Bailey's Mississippi Bottom Blues features a man with a lighter and distinctly soft voice. The same is true of Rowdy Blues, up until approximately the 50 second mark (!!!), when "Bailey" sings, "I don't love nobody, whole round world but you," in the exact coarse stylings of Willie Brown. "Ain't no use.." follows, in the same coarse, passionate and emotive voice. This means that Brown and Bailey are the same person. The anomaly, Mississippi Bottom Blues, with no hint of coarseness that I can detect, simply demonstrates that Brown was like Blind Willie Johnson in his ability to sing in an angelic and digestible tone at one moment, and then switch to a gruff, gravelly cigarette-coarse throaty sound. If you aren't convinced by the 4th verse of Rowdy Blues that the singer is Willie Brown, I don't know what else to say. I think that pretty much everyone will be convinced by the one minute mark if they attempt to detach themselves from the guitar playing and focus only on the vocals. This being said, I'm not a guitarist. However, I'm an excellent mimic and have a knack for picking up languages. Sorry about the self-referential crap. Without the missing piece - Rowdy Blues - I probably wouldn't have believed that the "two" men are the same guy. "Rowdy Blues," which demonstrates both of Brown's beautiful tones, has solved this mystery.

Make me a pallet on the floor was recorded by the same man. I believe it was either Lomax or Son House who said that Brown was under the weather at the time. Perhaps someone can verify this by looking at Son House interview transcripts or Lomax's The Land... book. I mentioned this because the coarseness of the second half of Rowdy Blues is there, but not of Future and M&O.
And let's also keep in mind that we're talking about an 11-year difference in recording dates. And, yes, an 11-year difference would also be the case when comparing Future and M&O to Mississippi Blues and Ragged and Dirty, but the point is that it wouldn't be the case when comparing Mississippi Blues and Ragged and Dirty to Make me a pallet on the floor! Simply put, there is no accounting for why or how the vocals and even quality of guitar work (sorry to phrase this in non-technical terms) could or should be so different between Pallet and Ragged+Mississippi.

Ragged and dirty blues and Mississippi blues are sung by a different man, a person whose enunciation is not nearly as clear as Brown's, whose vocal pitch isn't quite on the mark, and whose guitar playing is more tentative and includes some notes that I can't say are flubbed, but would have no reason for their less than perfect execution if we compare them with make me a pallet on the floor. This is where the guitarists on the forum can do an investigation.

What does everyone think?

**"Nothing I had did, but something she had heard" in Mississippi Bottom Blues, does, indeed, have some of the gruff and coarse quality in it.**

**I assume it's been mentioned elsewhere, and in and of itself it's not proof of anything, but "Mississippi Bottom Blues" contains a variant of the "poor mother's getting old" line that Charley Patton had recorded the previous year in Screamin' and Hollerin' the Blues. (Put bluntly, Brown=Bailey, is my point)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 04:59:38 AM by Hardluckchild »

Offline Blues Vintage

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2022, 04:53:30 PM »
Brown=Bailey. I agree.

Offline Devils Son Inlaw

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2022, 05:55:49 PM »
I don't mean to shoot you down but many others have claimed this for a while.  Unfortunately there is no documentation to prove this to be true, only a few recorded songs by a great musician(s)?

Offline Hardluckchild

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2022, 12:57:18 AM »
I appreciate your honest response, Mr. Wheatstraw. Putting aside the theories of others, could you please let me know your own thoughts on the matter? Do you have an opinion one way or the other? If so, are there any examples you point to in order to support your opinion?

It might sound off topic, but I think that a classically trained musician who sits down and listens to old Caruso recordings (and those of his peers) could be of help to us old blues fans. Sounds a bit out of left field, but maybe such a person could help us out, provided he or she is willing to first dive deep into listening to the so-called standard Country Blues essentials in order to acclimate his or her ears to the genre.

Just wondering if you had an opportunity to go 50 seconds in to "Rowdy Blues" (and then listen to the remaining verses) and then quickly jump to listening to M&O and Future Blues. If you do so, I think you'll come to the same realization that I did.

Also, has anyone noticed or written about the fact that M&O and Future Blues (in all remasterings that I've heard) have more surface noise on them than Rowdy and Mississippi Bottom? To my ears, greaterr amounts of surface noise (crackling like Rice Crispies) can create the impression that a rough and coarse vocal is rougher than it actually is! In other words, if the listener believes Brown isn't Bailey because Brown's vocals just sound much tougher, it could be the surface noise on M&O and Future that create this impression. Of course, I'm purposely leaving out the obvious fact that the vocals on Mississippi Bottom could never be misconstrued as being coarse (I addressed this in my first post, showing how Rowdy starts off with the same soft vocals as Mississipi Bottom, but then morphs into coarse territory at the 50 second mark.This fact shows that "Bailey" could sing in both a sweet and rough manner, just like Blind Willie Johnson.)

The man whose vocals started off sweet and angelic on Rowdy, but then became quite coarse and rough, is the same.man whose vocals were sweet throughout nearly all of Mississippi Bottom. Also, the man whose vocals were coarse and aggressive throughout Future and M&O - which are full of surface noise - is the same man whose vocals sounded ever so slightly less coarse on Rowdy. if you put these two facts together, the only conclusion you can draw is that Brown is Bailey.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2022, 01:10:15 AM by Hardluckchild »

Offline Hardluckchild

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2022, 12:58:45 AM »
Brown=Bailey. I agree.

Would it be all right if I ask about how you came to the conclusion you did? Feel free to let me know here or through a private message. Thanks in advance.

Offline Blues Vintage

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2022, 02:30:55 PM »
Voice, guitar style and mannerisms are nearly the same, he just sings a bit softer on "Rowdy Blues".
Starts both "Future Blues" and "Rowdy Blues" with a AB formula instead of the regular AAB.
The name "Kid Bailey" sounds very much like a pseudonym.


David Evans - Blues Revue Quarterly 1993

"Many researchers, myself included, asked Son House if he had ever heard of Kid Bailey and played the two pieces for him.  The name didn't ring a bell with Son, but he insisted without wavering that it was the voice of his good friend and partner Willie Brown."

Offline Devils Son Inlaw

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2022, 08:46:05 PM »
Personally, I agree with both of you that there are similarities between the two and my point was only that there were others that have made the same claim well before your post

I remember reading that John Tefteller thought Kid Bailey could very well be Willie Brown and Son House had heard a Kid Bailey song and said the same thing.  Stephan Wirz has the same claim made under Bailey's name on his web site. These "theories" from others are similar to your theory but there is still no proof.

Does that mean the mystery is "solved"?  I'd say of course not. 

Offline Stuart

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2022, 03:10:33 PM »
I'm in agreement with Devil's Son-In-Law on this. --Nothing new here. The arguments (reason giving) are impressionistic--"sounds like." It doesn't necessarily mean the identification is wrong, but argumentation isn't evidence--or proof, for that matter. It's simply another case where we just don't know for sure, because we have no way of knowing for sure.

Kid Bailey's songs are included in the "Screamin' and Hollerin'..." set. My copy is buried at the moment, but if anyone has a copy handy you could check to see what the notes to the songs say (if anything) re: his identification.

Offline Blues Vintage

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2022, 05:12:54 PM »
From "Screamin' and Hollerin' The Blues: The Worlds of Charley Patton",

The shadowy Kid Bailey (his given name has not survived) seems to have been an itinerant who practiced in the shadows of Patton and Willie Brown, though his singing is relatively subdued in comparison with theirs. Brown has been suggested as one of these guitarists, in part because of this tune’s resemblance to his “M & O Blues” (4/4) related in turn to “Pony Blues” (1/1). David Evans feels there is a strong possibility that Bailey and Brown are one and the same.

Offline Tony Gilroy

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2022, 12:12:52 AM »

The suggestion that Bailey was Brown is on Bailey's Wikipaedia page which doesn't of course make it so. It's also mentioned in the Eagle/LeBlanc book.

Bailey recorded in 1929 and Brown in 1930 so for me that begs the question of why Brown would have needed or chosen to use a pseudonym - it wasn't to fool a record company. It doesn't seem that researchers have ever found anything on Bailey but that doesn't mean that he wasn't a real person of that or similar name. I distrust aural identifications because we're all susceptible to hearing what we want to hear.

I love this sort of speculation but there'll be no proof unless or until someone uncovers details of Bailey's life and with a common surname and presumably "Kid" not being the given name ancestry research is unlikely to get anywhere.

Offline Hardluckchild

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2022, 06:36:03 AM »
Are we sure that his voice doesn't sound more coarse on "Rowdy Blues" because of all the surface noise on "Future Blues" and "M&O Blues"? I believe all of the heavy surface noise on the latter record accounts for the seemingly less coarse vocals on "Rowdy Blues", up until the 50 second mark!

We can find records by, for example, Crying Sam Collins, that have very heavy surface noise, and also ones that have less surface noise. The ones with heavier surface noise distort the vocals and make them seem coarse and gruff, whereas the cleaner recordings allow us to get a truer picture of the singer's vocals.

The anomaly, as I mentioned in my initial post, is therefore "Mississippi Bottom Blues." if you listen to it right after you listen to the two Brown recordings, you most likely wouldn't believe it's the same man singing. But if you then listen to the 4th and final recording, "Rowdy Blues" you would recognize that the singer at the beginning (before the 50 second mark!)is the same as the man who sang "Mississippi Bottom." And if you listen past the 50 second mark, you would recognize that the singer on "Rowdy Blues" is the same man who sang on the two Brown recordings.

I , too, love guitar work, but when we are identifying vocalists, guitar playing doesn't need to figure in to the picture. Hope that doesn't sound blasphemous.
Voice, guitar style and mannerisms are nearly the same, he just sings a bit softer on "Rowdy Blues".
Starts both "Future Blues" and "Rowdy Blues" with a AB formula instead of the regular AAB.
The name "Kid Bailey" sounds very much like a pseudonym.


David Evans - Blues Revue Quarterly 1993

"Many researchers, myself included, asked Son House if he had ever heard of Kid Bailey and played the two pieces for him.  The name didn't ring a bell with Son, but he insisted without wavering that it was the voice of his good friend and partner Willie Brown."

Offline Hardluckchild

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2022, 06:42:50 AM »
Sure, we're all susceptible to hearing what we want to hear. However, if I were a betting man..

Did you try going to the 50 second mark of "Rowdy Blues"? Perhaps doing so will lead you to a definite conclusion regarding this matter!

The suggestion that Bailey was Brown is on Bailey's Wikipaedia page which doesn't of course make it so. It's also mentioned in the Eagle/LeBlanc book.

Bailey recorded in 1929 and Brown in 1930 so for me that begs the question of why Brown would have needed or chosen to use a pseudonym - it wasn't to fool a record company. It doesn't seem that researchers have ever found anything on Bailey but that doesn't mean that he wasn't a real person of that or similar name. I distrust aural identifications because we're all susceptible to hearing what we want to hear.

I love this sort of speculation but there'll be no proof unless or until someone uncovers details of Bailey's life and with a common surname and presumably "Kid" not being the given name ancestry research is unlikely to get anywhere.

Offline Tony Gilroy

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2022, 07:31:51 AM »
For me the report that Son House thought that the Bailey record sounded like Brown begs the question as to the near certainty that had Brown ever made a record as Kid Bailey he'd have told House about it at some point in their long friendship.

My bet would be that Bailey was not Brown.

Offline Stuart

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2022, 10:11:41 AM »
For every argument there's a counter argument and for every explanation there's a counter explanation. They're not all the same and some are better than others, but...

There's no reason to force a conclusion when there is no hard evidence to support it. Enjoy the music.

Offline eric

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2022, 11:35:40 AM »
If memory serves, we've been litigating the Kid Bailey hypothesis for at least 40 years now. Great tunes in any case.
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Eric

Offline waxwing

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2022, 02:53:37 PM »
A word about vocal production. Everyone has a vocal apparatus that is capable of producing vastly different sounds, depending on how they utilize what are known as resonators. Virtually any cavity in the body can be utilized to add volume, timber and tone to the vocal sound, whether spoken or sung. The resonator cavities of the body include the lung cavity, the glottal area at the top of the throat, the mouth, the sinuses and nasal passages, the forehead and the top of the skull. By specifically energizing these resonators in different combinations one can naturally make one’s own voice sound anywhere from Charley Patton to Ishmon Bracey. There is no voice that we are individually trapped into using, and blues singers are a good example of how singers can morph their voice for the specific reason of amplification and also the quality of cutting through a crowd, in a jook joint or on a street. The concept of “singing in your own voice” is entirely a misconception. Any noise you can make with your vocal apparatus belongs to you. Likewise, the idea that because a singer on one record sounds, to one person, like another singer, no matter how close, is no “proof” of anything.

The idea that we each have a specific voice and that it is the only voice we can use for speaking or singing is, well, silly. We have the capability, with practice, of creating any voice we care to use. And we own that voice. If we are inspired to sing in a voice which uses similar resonators and other qualities as an artist we admire, that is a natural progression. Howling Wolf specifically stated that he got “his voice” from Charley Patton, and Tom Waits stated that he got “his voice” from Howling Wolf. That’s called artistic lineage.

I would also point out that there is no population wide difference between the vocal apparatus of black people and that of white people, aside from normal individual variance of size and muscularity. Only the genetics of their skin color is different. Both populations have all the same vocal capabilities. Most people grow up imitating their family and those people they spend most of their time with, both in pronunciation and vocal qualities, i.e. resonators. This may create cultural differences in the way people utilize their vocal apparatus, but does not limit them from making rather drastic changes to the way they use the apparatus if they wish. It seems obvious that out of necessity, the singers from a pre-amplification era would experiment and learn about these different resonators and how they affect their voice.

If anyone is interested in learning more about resonators and other aspects of natural vocal production, I would recommend the book Freeing The Natural Voice by Kristin Linklater, now head of the theatre department at Columbia in NYC. Anyone who is inspired to perform the old blues would really step up their performance level if they gave their singing as much thought and practice as their guitar playing.

Wax
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Offline Stuart

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2022, 04:00:27 PM »
Well written, Wax. Your expertise in this area is always appreciated.

Offline Blues Vintage

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2022, 10:55:58 AM »
Great post, Wax.  For a while there was speculation that "There're Red Hot" was not recorded by Robert Johnson.

Offline Hardluckchild

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2022, 03:50:08 AM »
Considering how I've taken the time to post detailed evidence in support of my hypothesis, but have received little to no response to said (specific) material, I've decided to take my findings elsewhere. It's disheartening to see that nobody has mentioned going to the 50 second mark or at least acknowledged that looking at vocal characteristics is just as valuable a tool for identifying a performer as his guitar work. The soft voice that you hear on "Mississippi Bottom Blues" is Brown's natural voice, and it is with this voice that he begins "Rowdy Blues," which morphs into a gruff growl at the 50 second mark of "Rowdy Blues," and is the same coarse tone that we hear on the two songs attributed to Willie Brown. If anyone decides to take these findings to a vocal coach, he or she will confirm this. Good day.

Offline Devils Son Inlaw

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2022, 06:54:14 AM »
It's your hypothesis, why don't you take it to a vocal coach or two?

We've all listened to the songs mentioned, not only the infamous 50 second mark but the whole song. But as mentioned many times before, it's not breaking news and has been a topic of discussion for years.


Offline Stuart

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2022, 10:34:58 AM »
Your toughest critics are your best friends. You should not come here and expect everyone to support your foregone conclusions and/or preconceived notions. As I wrote previously, what you have put forth is impressionistic and is not irrefutable proof. And as I also wrote, this does not necessarily mean that your identification is incorrect, it is simply that there is no hard evidence to support it.

Richard P. Feynman often said, "The easiest person to fool is yourself." I like to follow it with an anonymous quote, "So don't believe everything you think." And here's another one (I paraphrase), "It is not what people do not know that gets them into the most trouble, it's what they know with absolute certainty that just isn't true." (Samuel Johnson / Boswell, IIRC) Stop and think.

Offline waxwing

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2022, 11:58:12 AM »
Considering how I've taken the time to post detailed evidence in support of my hypothesis, but have received little to no response to said (specific) material, I've decided to take my findings elsewhere. It's disheartening to see that nobody has mentioned going to the 50 second mark or at least acknowledged that looking at vocal characteristics is just as valuable a tool for identifying a performer as his guitar work. The soft voice that you hear on "Mississippi Bottom Blues" is Brown's natural voice, and it is with this voice that he begins "Rowdy Blues," which morphs into a gruff growl at the 50 second mark of "Rowdy Blues," and is the same coarse tone that we hear on the two songs attributed to Willie Brown. If anyone decides to take these findings to a vocal coach, he or she will confirm this. Good day.
I felt I did respond to your hypothesis directly when I pointed out that, due to the vast variability of any individual's voice, a few recorded lines slightly gruffer than another just cannot be considered proof of identity. Because something seems like it "might' be what you are wanting to hear does not mean that it is proof. I think the most you could say with some certainty is that it is very likely that these two singers grew up in relatively close proximity to each other. They certain "might" be the same person, but as pointed out by Tony Gilroy, also providing evidence directly concerning your hypothesis, it does not seem that Willie Brown was under a recording contract at the time that Kid Bailley was recorded, so there is no known reason for him to record under an assumed name. And again, as Tony pointed out in his second post, if WB had already recorded why would he not have revealed this to his close friend, Son House.

I might point out that the fact that you felt that you had to indicate your knowledge that William Brown is a different person than Willie Brown indicates you probably haven't been studying this period of musicology for very long. These two players are very well known to those who have been involved in this music for any substantial amount of time. You will learn that there are many points of contention, many involving identity, that we all may have theories about, but we have to accept that there is no actual "proof" available.

I, too, have listened to these recordings and pondered these questions many times. I think the slight variance you speak of at .50 is inconsequential, given my knowledge of the human voice. It is very possible that they are the same person, sure, but vocal qualities from a short, poorly recorded song, cannot be proof. So it is just as possible that they are not the same person, but two singers from the same extended family or plantation.

Take it over to the Real Blues Forum on FaceBook and see what kind of response ensues.

Wax
« Last Edit: October 31, 2022, 12:26:13 PM by waxwing »
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
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“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.”
Joseph Heller, Catch-22

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Offline btasoundsradio

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2022, 04:44:55 PM »
I still think that Bailey is a younger student of Brown and they made the record together. I feel that "Bailey's" voice is just different enough for it not to be Brown, but someone who learned his singing style directly from him. Brown's vocals have more authority. The singer sounds young to my ears and Brown was known to not take center stage with lead vocals often, but his guitar licks are obviously present. Also just my opinion.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2022, 04:52:35 PM by btasoundsradio »
Charlie is the Father, Son is the Son, Willie is the Holy Ghost

Offline rein

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2022, 11:17:56 AM »
And yet those guitars licks were not just limited to Willie Brown either. Tommy Johnson used the same in 1928, as did a number of musicians David Evans would record in the 1960s. I don t think we will ever really find out who taught who, who Kid Bailey was or even who Willie Brown was, because information on him is also scarce and sometimes contradicting. But I think we can say there were a number of musicians that shared a common guitar vocabulary.
 

Offline David Kaatz

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2022, 10:27:12 PM »
Considering how I've taken the time to post detailed evidence in support of my hypothesis, but have received little to no response to said (specific) material, I've decided to take my findings elsewhere. It's disheartening to see that nobody has mentioned going to the 50 second mark or at least acknowledged that looking at vocal characteristics is just as valuable a tool for identifying a performer as his guitar work. The soft voice that you hear on "Mississippi Bottom Blues" is Brown's natural voice, and it is with this voice that he begins "Rowdy Blues," which morphs into a gruff growl at the 50 second mark of "Rowdy Blues," and is the same coarse tone that we hear on the two songs attributed to Willie Brown. If anyone decides to take these findings to a vocal coach, he or she will confirm this. Good day.
Thank you, thank you, oh wise one, for your unerring insight into the recording studios and song stylings of the early bluesman. When are going to publish your findings, so that all the world may hail your genius?

Offline btasoundsradio

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2023, 11:02:25 AM »
The Calt Patton bio has way more info about Kid Bailey from direct sources than I recalled. I reread it again after about 20 years. Several pages of recollections about Kid Bailey. According to the book, he definitely existed.
Charlie is the Father, Son is the Son, Willie is the Holy Ghost

Offline Hardluckchild

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2023, 12:04:36 AM »
Considering how I've taken the time to post detailed evidence in support of my hypothesis, but have received little to no response to said (specific) material, I've decided to take my findings elsewhere. It's disheartening to see that nobody has mentioned going to the 50 second mark or at least acknowledged that looking at vocal characteristics is just as valuable a tool for identifying a performer as his guitar work. The soft voice that you hear on "Mississippi Bottom Blues" is Brown's natural voice, and it is with this voice that he begins "Rowdy Blues," which morphs into a gruff growl at the 50 second mark of "Rowdy Blues," and is the same coarse tone that we hear on the two songs attributed to Willie Brown. If anyone decides to take these findings to a vocal coach, he or she will confirm this. Good day.
I felt I did respond to your hypothesis directly when I pointed out that, due to the vast variability of any individual's voice, a few recorded lines slightly gruffer than another just cannot be considered proof of identity. Because something seems like it "might' be what you are wanting to hear does not mean that it is proof. I think the most you could say with some certainty is that it is very likely that these two singers grew up in relatively close proximity to each other. They certain "might" be the same person, but as pointed out by Tony Gilroy, also providing evidence directly concerning your hypothesis, it does not seem that Willie Brown was under a recording contract at the time that Kid Bailley was recorded, so there is no known reason for him to record under an assumed name. And again, as Tony pointed out in his second post, if WB had already recorded why would he not have revealed this to his close friend, Son House.

I might point out that the fact that you felt that you had to indicate your knowledge that William Brown is a different person than Willie Brown indicates you probably haven't been studying this period of musicology for very long. These two players are very well known to those who have been involved in this music for any substantial amount of time. You will learn that there are many points of contention, many involving identity, that we all may have theories about, but we have to accept that there is no actual "proof" available.

I, too, have listened to these recordings and pondered these questions many times. I think the slight variance you speak of at .50 is inconsequential, given my knowledge of the human voice. It is very possible that they are the same person, sure, but vocal qualities from a short, poorly recorded song, cannot be proof. So it is just as possible that they are not the same person, but two singers from the same extended family or plantation.

Take it over to the Real Blues Forum on FaceBook and see what kind of response ensues.

Wax

Various musicians (including Rory Block) have, at times, confused William Brown (Arkansas guy, Lomax) with the Willie Brown in question. This is why I felt it necessary to mention that the two are separate entities. I've been listening to and reading about this music for 26 years.

Your reference to Mr. Gilroy's comment about there being no need for a pseudonym on the part of Brown, is a very good point.

In my first two posts in this thread, I stressed the 50-second mark AND (forgive the Caps-Lock) the remainder of the song. Obviously, 1 second's worth of vocals can't reveal much. If I subsequently failed to stress the importance of listening to the remainder of the vocals in said song, it was my fault for not being specific.

Of course, we each have a variety of vocal stylings we can use. However, some come more naturally than others, with less risk of doing damage - however minor - to our vocal apparatus.

Has anyone ever been able to find information related to Luke Thomson, Clubfoot, or that clothing store that a YouTuber claimed Brown worked at?

I still stand by my certainty that Bailey is Brown, and am wondering if it's possible to isolate the vocals from the music on these early recordings. After all, Patton, Tommy Johnson, etc., had certain guitar techniques and songs under their belt, as shared material. For the purpose of this discussion only, I don't see a reason to focus on instrumentation. Vocal comparisons would be the most useful tool here.

Offline waxwing

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2023, 01:57:36 PM »
Well, it was probably in the 1960s that Rory would’ve made that error and, her husband at the time, Stephen Grossman, probably corrected her. Continues to be good patter for her shows, I guess. It seems odd that you feel you need to school the folks here at Weenie Campbell.

Bottom line for me is, I don’t believe that poor recordings from the 20s of somewhat manipulated voices can, alone, prove anything regarding the identity of the singers. You need other factual evidence to corroborate.

 Also good to remember that the singers who were recorded in the 20s and 30s were likely the tip of the iceberg. There could have been several other singers who sounded very similar to Willie Brown. We tend to fall into the trap of thinking that the musicians that were recorded were the entire population of black performers.

Wax
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
George Bernard Shaw

“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.”
Joseph Heller, Catch-22

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Offline Stuart

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2023, 02:21:41 PM »
And for those who were recorded, what was recorded and released (determined by the A&R people) was not necessarily representative of their overall repertoire.

Offline Hardluckchild

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2023, 08:05:16 PM »
Well, it was probably in the 1960s that Rory would’ve made that error and, her husband at the time, Stephen Grossman, probably corrected her. Continues to be good patter for her shows, I guess. It seems odd that you feel you need to school the folks here at Weenie Campbell.

Bottom line for me is, I don’t believe that poor recordings from the 20s of somewhat manipulated voices can, alone, prove anything regarding the identity of the singers. You need other factual evidence to corroborate.

 Also good to remember that the singers who were recorded in the 20s and 30s were likely the tip of the iceberg. There could have been several other singers who sounded very similar to Willie Brown. We tend to fall into the trap of thinking that the musicians that were recorded were the entire population of black performers.

Wax

Yes, you are right about how truly under- recorded this music was.

As recently as 1996, a Block album credited "Mississippi Bottom Blues" to Willie Brown, and there might very well be guitar instructionals or other recordings by her that came out afterwards and credit that song (and "Rowdy Blues"?) to Brown.

It seems odd that you feel that I feel the need to "school" you and others about Brown/Bailey. I was simply trying to confirm if my posts had been read in their entirety by others. It's human nature to occasionally peruse and respond, without digesting all material (i.e., the details/what I call "evidence" in my posts) first. I never meant to harm anyone.

I hope that you and others will listen with fresh ears to the four songs in the order I mentioned, with only the vocals (and not HardLuckChild) on your minds.

I'm going to see if I can get my hands on the Calt book.

Offline waxwing

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2023, 01:59:23 AM »
My question about schooling was in the paragraph about the Willie/William thing, not about the WB/KB thing. Nothing personal here.

I recommended earlier that you could take your theory over to the Real Blues Forum on Facebook. Have you done so? I believe David Evans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Evans_(musicologist) is a regular poster there. I remember I saw posts by him when the silent footage very likely of Henry Thomas playing guitar and quills, in a German documentary, surfaced and was posted on RBF, within the last year or so. David is probably the biggest and most qualified proponent of the WB=KB theory and would certainly have knowledge of pretty much any corroborating evidence available. I think discussions about this may have occurred on RBF some years ago, but I have never had much success searching/navigating the archive there. Good luck.

I was just about to mention our Tag Index and noticed that someone has already attached the Kid Bailey Tag. They are at the bottom of every Topic page. If you click the tag you will see a list of topics and the one titled Who Was Kid Bailey is the one you want to read. Our beloved Bunker Hill (well known researcher and writer Alan Balfour) posted quite a bit of info from David Evans and information from others is posted as well. There are some excepts from the Calt/Wardlow book supporting the theory, but not the excerpt I seem to remember in which a woman who was interviewed stated that Willie once told her he had spent the day backing Kid Bailey for a recording session, but it was a long time ago that I read that, so, grain of salt.

I'm looking forward to the new version of the book. too.

Wax
« Last Edit: January 16, 2023, 02:46:56 AM by waxwing »
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
George Bernard Shaw

“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.”
Joseph Heller, Catch-22

http://www.youtube.com/user/WaxwingJohn
CD on YT

Offline CF

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2023, 10:26:21 AM »
The William Brown/Willie Brown confusion didn't get the clarity it needed til the internet chat forum/YouTube age. If Rory was confused in the 1990s, so were most others, I think. Didn't Alan Lomax confuse them himself in his 1990s memoir?

Bailey will always be in the picture and have that asterix beside his name. I'm on the side that it's not Brown singing but am not comfortable closing the book on it.

If Wardlow /Calt found "two pages" of info about "Kid Bailey" then we have definite evidence of two different musicians despite aural similarities, right?
Stand By If You Wanna Hear It Again . . .

Offline Stuart

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2023, 11:50:09 AM »
Attached are pages from the 1988 edition on which Kid Bailey is mentioned. These are only posted for your reference. (I haven't seen the new edition--it's been ordered and is on its way.)

Calt, Stephen and Wardlow, Gayle
King of the Delta Blues: The Life and Music of Charlie Patton
Newton, New Jersey: Rock Chapel Press, 1988

As you can see, the authors' informants appear to indicate that Willie Brown and Kid Bailey are/were two separate individuals.

The pages have been scanned according to the terms of "Fair Use" and are only to be used under the terms of "Fair Use."

https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/
« Last Edit: January 17, 2023, 09:53:36 AM by Stuart »

Offline waxwing

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2023, 02:14:27 AM »
Hey Stuart,

Thanks so much for posting those pages. I would have never pulled out my copy and looked them up. But I was particularly happy to see the first set of pages because of the descriptions of Patton's performance qualities, starting with the first full paragraph on the left. I remember how inspired I was when I first read this description, maybe 15, 20 years ago. I guess I needed that reminder just now.

Wax
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
George Bernard Shaw

“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.”
Joseph Heller, Catch-22

http://www.youtube.com/user/WaxwingJohn
CD on YT

Offline Stuart

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2023, 09:52:29 AM »
At your service, Wax. Hopefully the info about Kid Bailey on the pages will help with some of the confusion.

Offline dj

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2023, 01:11:00 PM »
Since Stuart brought up King of the Delta Blues: The Life and Music of Charlie Patton, I'd like to take a second and recommend Ed Komara's rewrite - a "thorough overhaul", Komara calls it in his preface.  It's much more clearly written than the original, and it includes musical notation of the relevant sections of songs as they're being discussed.  Overall, it's a vast improvement on the original edition.  And I say this as someone who has treasured that original edition.

Also, pseudonyms have come up in this discussion. "Bailey recorded in 1929 and Brown in 1930 so for me that begs the question of why Brown would have needed or chosen to use a pseudonym - it wasn't to fool a record company."  It should be pointed out that there are lots of reasons to use a pseudonym other than to "fool a record company".  A person might at times use the last name of a father, mother, or step-parent.  We know, for example, that Robert Johnson used Dodds, Spencer, and Johnson at various times.  Or a musician who was closely involved with a church might use a pseudonym so that the members of his church wouldn't know about his playing the blues.  Or the pseudonym may have been bestowed by a talent scout, manager, or record company, as Fulton Allen became Blind Boy Fuller.

As to the Bailey/Brown question, there have been times in my life when I thought there was a good possibility that Bailey was Brown, and there have been times when I thought he probably wasn't.  Currently I tend to come down on the "wasn't" side, but at this point, we'll never really know, will we?

 


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