Topic: The Thumb Has It

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've been thinking for some time that a lot of our heroes of Country Blues guitar used the thumb of the picking hand in a more thorough-going and varied way, throughout the entire range of the guitar, than has been thought by most present-day players.  Here are a few examples of players whom I believe to have used the thumb, not only for time-keeping in the bass and bass runs, but for single-string runs ranging up into the treble.
   * Clifford Gibson liked to start and end many of his songs with treble runs.  These generally happen with no simultaneous activity on the bass strings.  I believe this is because he was using the flesh of his picking thumb to play the runs.  Using the thumb this way enables a player to get a very fat, smooth, penetrating sort of tone that would be very hard to duplicate by picking with fingers.  In addition to using his thumb to play the treble runs, Clifford Gibson hit single strings in the bass, but also did big rhythmic brush strokes with the thumb, using it almost like a drum.
   * Scrapper Blackwell, on some of his tunes out of D position like "Trouble Blues" and "Back Door Blues", goes into long treble runs behind which the bass drops out.  Like Clifford Gibson, Scrapper played these runs with a huge, round tone that I think may very well have resulted from his using his thumb to play them.  And the segues out of these runs into places where the thumb is adopting a more conventional role in the bass are not implausibly quick.  And of course, Scrapper, again like Clifford Gibson, could make his thumb drive his time like a drum.
   * Lemon Jefferson used a thumb pick to play a lot of his bass runs, but I believe that on many of his songs (especially his C tunes, like "Black Snake Moan")  he used his thumb to play practically his entire accompaniment.
   * For his song "Too Many Women Blues", I believe the post-War musician Willie Lane used his thumb to play everything except the odd note here and there.  He plays his treble runs with such power, I have a hard time believing he did them by picking with his fingers.
   * Apart from the musicians already named, for whom the varied use of the thumb may be conjectured but not proven, there are musicians whom we have film of, notably J B Lenoir and Buddy Moss, using their thumbs on all six strings, playing fast single-string lines, and using the thumb to bring out melodic lines with a rhythmic force and penetrating tone that could not be equalled by the fingers.  A number of you were fortunate to see John Jackson in action, and observe him playing rapid runs which he was able to execute by using his thumb to go both directions, down and up, the way a Bluegrass picker  uses a flatpick to play fast runs.

Achieving a more varied use of the picking thumb seems like a really worthwhile thing for anyone interested in playing Country Blues guitar to work on developing.  I'd be interested if folks knew of other players who made such all-encompassing use of the thumb in their picking.

All best,
Johnm   
   

[lindy]

When I read your post, the first name that popped into my mind was Rev. Gary Davis.

However, rereading the post, I'm not sure that he fits the bill of "all-encompassing use of the thumb" that you are emphasizing--that is, the use of the thumb only to do long single-note runs.

Rev. Davis made great use of his thumb in combination with his index finger to do some amazing things on the top three strings, including playing 2- or 3-string strums that carried the melody. I spent some time on YouTube re-watching the 25-minute film of Davis that was shot in 1967, and whether or not it fits exactly with the idea in your post, that thumb was certainly all over the place.

(The YouTube page also had links to vids of Elizabeth Cotten--a completely separate category of using the thumb.)

Lindy

[Johnm]

Sure, Rev. Davis's use of the thumb would be an example of someone using the thumb over the entire range of the guitar in varied ways, Lindy.
All best,
Johnm

[Longsands]

I was lucky enough to see Honeyboy Edwards play a few times, and his frequent use of the thumb to pick treble runs was something that always struck me.  I had a go trying to emulate this approach, but found it quite alien and didn?t persist.  This clip shows a bit of it, around the minute mark:

[Johnm]

Hi all
Another cut that is notable for the player's use of the picking thumb all over the instrument is Reese Crenshaw's "Trouble", which can be heard at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88351#msg88351 .  Crenshaw's playing here is so strong and original that he inspired me to transcribe his rendition from beginning to end.
All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've recently had occasion to work on the music of two players not previously mentioned in this thread whom I believe to have used the thumb for picking and brushing in the treble as well as the bass.  The first is Arthur Crudup, a player who has gone relatively unexamined by present-day players in terms of figuring out exactly how he played what he played.  The piece I was working on was his version of "Mean Old Frisco Blues", and after transcribing the intro and first verse accompaniment, I'm convinced he handled the great majority of his right hand articulation with his thumb, only very occasionally using the index finger of the picking hand to do little brush strokes or occasionally hit the first string.  In the main, he really sounds like he was playing almost everything he did with his thumb.
The second player is Blind Blake.  I've been working on his "Detroit Bound Blues", and like many of his C position tunes in standard tuning, it has passages,  particularly in his instrumental responses, where the bass drops out and he plays single string runs in the treble.  Many of these runs resolve downward in pitch and eventually flow right back into his bass alternation.  The fat, penetrating tone he gets on several of these runs makes me think that he played them with his thumb in the right hand rather than his fingers.  It's pretty much impossible to get the big, round, rich tone you can achieve with the flesh of your thumb by picking with your fingers.  So I'm inclined to put Blind Blake on the list of players who used the thumb to play all over the guitar, including single string runs in the treble.

All best,
Johnm

[big joe weems]

I have recently been trying to play with a thumb pick and finger picks after playing for some time with bare thumb and fingers, because I like the increased volume with picks, especially in the single note treble runs. However, I have noticed a decreased level of dexterity (specifically, speed of movement) with the thumb while using a thumb pick. I'm wondering from you more experienced players, if this is something that will improve over time to the point where a thumb with thumb pick can have just as much dexterity as a bare thumb, or if it will always be a trade-off between increased volume but less dexterity with a thumb pick.

[eric]

John, I would interested in your take on Lemon's thumb technique.

I'm no expert, but some tunes just seem to make more sense using the thumb on the treble strings; sounds better and easier to do, to me anyway.

[Johnm]

Hi Eric,
I do think Lemon used his thumb on the treble strings quite a lot, both for brush strokes and for single-string runs, as in a lot of his material in C position, standard tuning, especially the sort of archetypal C tunes he recorded over and over later in his career.  I think he probably used the thumb pick for his tremolo, too.
All best,
John

[One-Eyed Ross]

... I'm wondering from you more experienced players, if this is something that will improve over time to the point where a thumb with thumb pick can have just as much dexterity as a bare thumb, or if it will always be a trade-off between increased volume but less dexterity with a thumb pick.

By no means am I an expert (an ex is a has been, a spurt is a drip under pressure!) but yes, you will get better with time and practice.  As a former 5 string banjo player, it just takes time and practice and time and practice.

[Slack]

This reminds me...

Grossman had a Friday lesson special and I picked up Johnm's and Frank Baslie's "Legendary Country Blues Guitar Duets" for 15 bucks,  sale is good until the 18th, I have only gotten through the first tune, but recommend it... as the first tune is Memphis Minnie's and Kansas Joes "Pile Driver Blues" where Johnm plays MM's part using thumb Up Picking ala John Jackson.

So add John Miller to the list.

I love Pike Driver Blues, but sorry Johnm, I have a hard enough time making my thumb go one direction, I think I'll try the tune with a flat pick!   

[Johnm]

I'm glad you like "Pile Driver's Blues", John D, and I do think it is likely that Memphis Minnie played the lead guitar part on it either with a flat pick, or possibly with a thumb pick.  Somewhere along the line, I just became more comfortable going both directions with my thumb.  Getting the best results definitely justifies whatever choice is made by individual players.
All best,
Johnm

[Lastfirstface]

I was watching some footage of Sister Rosetta Tharpe recently and she seems to pick up, down, and tremolo runs all with a thumb pick. She strums down with her fingernails a lot while comping and backing up her singing, but she seems to kind of pinch the the thumb pick and play lead parts with the thumb pick moving in both directions.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I came upon another piece which I now believe to have been played almost exclusively with a thumb lead:  Blind Boy Fuller's version of "Careless Love", which Baby Tate also recorded as "What Have I Done To You?".  I'd played the piece for decades and had never been satisfied with the sound of the melody picked by my fingers--it sounded under-characterized, with inadequate sustain, weight and volume.  I was transcribing the Baby Tate version today for a lesson order, and it occurred to me to try it with a thumb lead phrasing the melody for the most part, and it all came together--much better sustain and volume, and much more satisfying bends, which surprised me, since it seems like a bend would be the same whether picked by the thumb or fingers.  Not so, as it turns out, at least for me.  Here is Baby Tate's version of "What Have I Done To You".  See what you think.



All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I had occasion to be reminded of a recorded performance in which I believe the player, Gabriel Brown, used his thumb to pick runs on all six strings as well as having it operate in a time-keeping role and using it to chord with big brush strokes.  The song is his "Going My Way", a sort of dropped-D re-casting of Big Maceo's "Worried Life Blues" with a new set of lyrics.  Gabriel Brown really does some stellar playing on it, especially in his solo, if you're willing to put up with his toothache-inducing tuning.  It's definitely worth seeking out, and is one more illustration of how the picking thumb can sometimes come close to carrying an entire accompaniment.
All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I thought of a couple of more performances in which the player used the picking thumb on all six strings, to play melodic passages, keep time, and handle chordal accompaniment with brush strokes.  On his duet with Annie McDowell, "I'm Goin' Over The Hill", Fred McDowell plays virtually the entire song using his thumb, only occasionally interjecting the index finger of the right hand.  And Rube Lacy, in his "Mississippi Jail House Groan", uses the thumb to snap lead lines on the third string, play descending bass runs, and keep time, relegating the index finger to snapping the open first string and occasional brush strokes.
All best
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I was recently hired to transcribe and teach Pink Anderson's version of "Baby, Please Don't Go", and upon listening to it I was struck by the weight and power with which Pink played his lead lines in the treble.  I'm reasonably certain he used his thumb to play those lines.  Here is his recording--listen and see what you think:



All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Here is a piece from Memphis Willie B, working in Vestapol, that certainly fits the description of this thread for the picking hand.  Boy, is this strong!



All best,
Johnm

[Gmaj7]

Hi John,

I'm trying to figure out where the technique of an upwards-pick with the thumb on a bass string originated. It only really works when wearing a thumbpick. Which country blues players used this technique?

[Johnm]

Hi Gmaj7,
I do down-up picking with the thumb all the time when I am improvising melodic lines and never wear a thumbpick.  John Jackson also did down-up picking quite often without using a thumbpick.  It's really not needed at all to employ that technique.  Watch footage of the Jazz guitarist Wes Montgomery, who did everything in his picking hand with a bare thumb.  As to other Country Blues players who employed the down-up picking with the thumb, Lemon Jefferson and Leadbelly certainly did it (and both of them did use a thumbpick).  I'm sure there are others who did it, but those two come to mind first for me.
All best,
Johnm

[big joe weems]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like many (if not most) players who use the thumb a lot for melodic lines, etc., employ exclusively down strokes--but just get really fast at them.  Thoughts?

[Johnm]

Hi big joe,
I think people are all over the map in the techniques they employ.
All best,
Johnm

[Gmaj7]

Hi Gmaj7,
I do down-up picking with the thumb all the time when I am improvising melodic lines and never wear a thumbpick.  John Jackson also did down-up picking quite often without using a thumbpick.  It's really not needed at all to employ that technique.  Watch footage of the Jazz guitarist Wes Montgomery, who did everything in his picking hand with a bare thumb.  As to other Country Blues players who employed the down-up picking with the thumb, Lemon Jefferson and Leadbelly certainly did it (and both of them did use a thumbpick).  I'm sure there are others who did it, but those two come to mind first for me.
All best,
Johnm

Hi John,

Thanks for the reply. I think the reasoning behind my "only works with a thumbpick" is down to my shonky technique. It seems like to do it without a pick, you need to make sure the thumb remains in extension, rather than flexion, otherwise it won't work. That's a weakness of mine for sure.

[Johnm]

Hi Gmaj7,
I think you're right in your technical assessment, and with that in mind, I think the only time I take the picking thumb out of extension is when I'm getting it under a string to snap it against the fingerboard, a la Scrapper Blackwell.  Many players I know who have a habit of bending the thumb at the last knuckle have ended up having problems with it.
All best,
Johnm

[WillMo]

I played around on the treble strings with my thumb last night, the fat of the meat there does give a nice rich sound.  I could also make an improvement in strength of strike and tone by using two fingers ( index and middle ) held together but the thumb thumps better I think partially because the nail never hits the string. I got a speedy up / down thumb and two fingers stroke going. 

I have noticed that relative to many others I have a hyper-extensive outermost thumb joint.  I'm thinking it may be easier for some to get a lot of thumb along various strings.  My current callous is pretty small and toward the end of my thumb but perhaps it will broaden out if I start playing the treble strings with my thumb.

[WillMo]

It looks to me like Boyd Rivers plays thumb lead..

[Johnm]

Good find, Will, Boyd Rivers certainly does do some thumb lead on that song.  It's interesting that he sometimes plays that melodic line on the third string with his index finger in the right hand, and other times plays the very same line with his thumb.  It's the kind of technical differentiation that would be next to impossible to pick up without having seen him play.  Thanks for posting that.
All best,
John

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Here is a good example of a guitarist using his picking thumb on all six strings:  Connie Williams playing Thomas Dorsey's "Precious Lord".  He is so varied with his thumb, keeping time in the bass, popping bass lines, and he always uses it to articulate slide phrases he plays in the treble.  And what a singer!  His chordal vocabulary in Vestapol is unrivaled among earlyish players for sophistication, too.  Here is "Precious Lord":



All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I have just had occasion to transcribe Lemon Jefferson's "Piney Woods Money Mama", which Lemon played out of E position in standard tuning, and it and the various tunes Lemon recorded that share many of the same licks in that playing position sound as though they were played using the thumb almost exclusively in the right hand, just interjecting the index finger in the treble here and there.
All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Here is another prime example of a player employing thumb leads all over the guitar--Clifford Gibson accompanying Sluefoot Joe (Barefoot Bill) on "House Top Blues".  Whew, what spectacular playing!



All best,
Johnm

[RobBob]

This thread hits a lot of my favorite players. To take it a little off but still on topic, my late friend Will Keys played two finger banjo and he would at times hit the first string with his thumb and his fifth string with his first finger.  He called that "Appalachian long thumb". Watch how his hand works. The banjo was played before guitar.

[Johnm]

Thanks for posting that, Bob.  Will Keys sure had beautiful time.  That move where he brings back his index finger to pick the fifth string has to be seen to be believed!  It's the kind of thing I don't think I could ever figure out without having seem him do it.
All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I had occasion to work on two Rev. Gary Davis tunes, both from "Say No To The Devil", recently, in order to do lessons on them.  The songs were "I Decided To Go Down" and "Lord, I Looked Down The Road", both of which he played in F position in standard tuning.  Here are his performances of the two songs from that recording:





In working on the songs, I noticed that in both instances, his use of the thumb in the picking hand to maintain any kind of time-keeping or alternation in the bass was very intermittent, with it just being left out most of the time. Thinking about that, I came to feel that he was probably playing most of his melodic leads in the treble with his picking thumb, for a couple of reasons:
   * The thumb is much the most coordinated of the digits, even more than the index finger, and will always produce a bigger sound when playing single-string lines than a finger would; and
   * The bends he uses at the fourth fret of the first two strings will always work easier if the attack in the right hand is coming from the opposite direction from the bend in the left hand. And since bends on the first two strings will go towards the middle of the fingerboard, having the thumb attack from the bass side helps the bend.

Apart from those two reasons, I also figured that if Rev. Davis had wanted to maintain any kind of conventional time-keeping in the bass with his thumb while playing those treble runs, he certainly had more than the technical wherewithal required to do that. It seemed the most logical reason for the bass to drop out was that the thumb was otherwise occupied, playing those treble runs.

Rev. Davis's coverage in the fretting hand on these two F tunes is beautifully efficient--you can simply assign a finger to a fret, right across the neck, with the index finger handling the first fret, the second finger the second fret, the ring finger the third fret and the little finger the fourth fret (even of the sixth string!).  And since both tunes avoid the IV chord, Bb, you don't have the common issues of how to fret that that you usually encounter when playing a blues in F position in standard tuning.

More and more, I'm coming to feel that in this music, if you have a player who habitually kept time in the bass with the picking thumb, and that time-keeping disappears simultaneous with treble or mid-range runs, the player was probably using the thumb to play those runs.  Give it a try and see what you think.

All best,
Johnm

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Another player who made extensive use of the thumb for runs on the treble strings was Honeyboy Edwards. His song, "Spread My Raincoat Down", that is the current Song of the Month lesson at my website has lots of runs played with the picking thumb that are almost reminiscent of Buddy Moss's playing though their over-all sound is quite different, of course.
All best,
Johnm