Topic: Charley Patton remasters

[MacSpadger]

Hi folks, been lurking here a wee while, so, first post.
Can anyone recommend the best remasters for Charley Patton, please?

I have the 3 CDs released by Document Records, and the 5CD "complete recordings" box set from JSP. The JSP box set is basically the same tracks as the 3 cd's from Document Records, but with 2 extra CDs added featuring Willie Brown, Son House, basically stuff I already have. All these recordings feature some surface noise in varying degrees.

I bought the Definitive Charley Patton boxset from Catfish, it has a lot of the surface noise removed, but somehow the dynamics of the music have suffered, it can come across as a wee bit "wooly" in tone, to my ears anyway.

I have had Charley Patton - Founder of the Delta Blues 1929-1934 on Yazoo recommended as best, but can't find it anywhere, (I live in Scotland), online sources seem to suggest it's out of print.

Any advice welcome. Thanks.

[JRO]

Hi MacSpadger,

And wellcome to weenieforum. I can't say which one of th Charlie Patton remasters are best sounding. But you can check  the Discogs page of Charlie Patton where you can find lots of The Founder of the Delta Bluse versions for example. Click the link. and then clic the For Sale link.

Happy hunting!

[Lcgrady]

 :-\mMacSpadger,

I?ve been lurking on the forum as well. I?ve been listening to these Patton recordings for nearly forty years, first on vinyl then on CD.  In my opinion the best sounding transfers are on two Yazoo CDs:  The Best of Charlie Patton, and Primeval Blues, Rags and Gospel Songs. The transfers were done by Richard Nevins. There is still surface noise - given the condition of the originals that?s a given - but the vocals and guitar on these versions are the most natural and ?musical? sounding I?ve heard for Patton. The remastering of 78s is an art form and the experiences of the listener are very subjective. Some people don?t like any surface noise and others hate the lack of dynamics that you?ve detected in the Catfish set.  I?ve always found the lack of dynamics much more grating than the surface noise. I admire the work of Richard Nevins and think he?s found a nearly perfect balance between surface noise and preserving the musicality of the performances.  You can listen to samples on Amazon to judge for yourself.  The two CDs will give you 46 tracks - not quite all of his work.

Edit:  following up on a suggestion below, here is an Amazon link created through the Weenie Campbell search box that will retrieve both of the Yazoo CDs I mentioned:

 https://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&Submit=Go&Submit.x=0&Submit.y=0&index=blended&keywords=charlie%20patton%20yazoo&link_code=qs&tag=weeniecampbel-20

Lee

[Gumbo]

There is usually a link on each page to amazon whereby Weeniecampbell gets a small commision but I can't find it. Has it been deactivated or is it just my browser?

[banjochris]

Welcome McSpadger and Lcgrady!

In addition to the two Yazoo CDs, I would add any of the remasterings on the Tefteller Blues Images calendar CDs. Richard Nevins did quite a few of them, if I'm not mistaken, and the folks doing them now are following in his footsteps and using the techniques that the American Epic folks used as well. There are several tracks scattered throughout the CDs.
Chris

[Stuart]

Here's a link to an earlier thread and the Pristine Classical page:

https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=4573.0

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pabl006

[MacSpadger]

Thanks guys, this info has been great. Have managed to download the Yazoo Charley Patton - Founder Of The Delta Blues from Amazon. Sounds great. I've never heard of the Tefteller Blues Images calendar CDs, I'll check them out.

[Gumbo]

Thanks guys, this info has been great. Have managed to download the Yazoo Charley Patton - Founder Of The Delta Blues from Amazon. Sounds great. I've never heard of the Tefteller Blues Images calendar CDs, I'll check them out.

a world of magic and wonder awaits you

[MacSpadger]

Gah. Googled Tetfeller Blues Images. Looks amazing. Unfortunately I live in Scotland, and postage and import taxes make it a no go. Ordered a wee Robert Crumb related item from the USA last year. It was $9.99. I ended up paying $38.00 by the time it arrived. A Memphis Minnie T Shirt ordered from Keep On Truckin' cost me the equivalent of more than $65 dollars by the time it got here. None of this is the vendors fault, it's all government taxes. American guitars cost a fortune here too, due to import taxes and other taxes such as VAT.

I like having the actual discs, but will go for downloads as I avoid such taxes.

But that Tetfeller Blues Images site, it's like someone gotten their hands on everything I like in the world, and put it all in the one place. Almost wish I'd never seen it. Almost................

[Nicolas Dussart]

Gah. Googled Tetfeller Blues Images. Looks amazing. Unfortunately I live in Scotland, and postage and import taxes make it a no go. Ordered a wee Robert Crumb related item from the USA last year. It was $9.99. I ended up paying $38.00 by the time it arrived. A Memphis Minnie T Shirt ordered from Keep On Truckin' cost me the equivalent of more than $65 dollars by the time it got here. None of this is the vendors fault, it's all government taxes. American guitars cost a fortune here too, due to import taxes and other taxes such as VAT.

I like having the actual discs, but will go for downloads as I avoid such taxes.

But that Tetfeller Blues Images site, it's like someone gotten their hands on everything I like in the world, and put it all in the one place. Almost wish I'd never seen it. Almost................

You could order it through Amazon.com :
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074ZXYHR3/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I live in France, I paid $23.97 (21.02?) including shipping, and got it around 10 days later.

[Lyndvs]

I just ordered the 2018 Blues Images Calendar from Amazon Uk.?21.00.
They have older calendars still available too.No need to import.

[MacSpadger]

You could order it through Amazon.com :
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074ZXYHR3/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I live in France, I paid $23.97 (21.02?) including shipping, and got it around 10 days later.

I just ordered the 2018 Blues Images Calendar from Amazon Uk.?21.00.
They have older calendars still available too.No need to import.

Waaah, amazing, will check it out right now! Thanks folks!

***EDIT*** Just bought one for ?21.00 

[DerZauberer]

As far as the original question goes, indeed the "American Epic" and Tefteller Remasters, along with the excellent "Rise and Fall of Paramount Records" masters sound pretty awesome and give the majority of the recorded output.

I would still LOVE to see a complete edition with these techniques, and would almost die if the classic Son House and Willie Brown tracks (including the 1941/42 Lomax Sessions) received the same treatment. While there are many decent transfers out there, it would be great to have them all on the same level and consistency as we have them for the Robert Johnson stuff.

[btasoundsradio]

I know I'm not the ultimate authority, but I have managed to cull the ultimate complete recordings of CP pulled from (in my opinion) the best remasters. Most tracks are from the most recent Yazoo sets, a few are from the JSP, a few are from the Revenant box, and the rest are from the Tefteller Calendar cd's. The Tefteller's are the missing links because they contain more recently discovered cleaner copies of Patton tracks. His remasters from cleaner copies of "Pea Vine", "Mean Black Cat", "Frankie and Albert" etc. are essential. Pea Vine being the most noticable. It's almost as if Patton is in the room with you, it's scary. The Patton box has some of the most obscure of the Patton tracks which sound awful i.e. "Jim Lee pt 2" and "Joe Kirby". I had to put a few of them up against the JSP's. I personally think the Yazoo remaster of "Down The Dirt Road" is still superior to the recent American Epic, which I think sounds a bit too quiet and less full. If anyone is interested in my full list, I can post it or email me at geffstiubhairt@gmail.com and let me know what you think.
-Cheers (a Patton fanatic)
PS Just got that full length poster of Patton from Blues Images, startling addition to my wall.

[MacSpadger]

I have now been in contact with the people that do the whole Blues Images thing. Importing stuff to Scotland is very expensive, but I think I'll be spending a fair bit of money! I have the Yazoo Patton releases too now, absolutely great stuff.
I now have the Document Records complete Patton 3 cds, the Catfish Records complete Patton 3 cds, and two Yazoo Patton CDs. Cannae' get enough o' that Charley Patton! 

Thanks to all for your help/assistance.

[Gumbo]

One for every room in the house and two for the car! 

[sofingraw]

I know I'm not the ultimate authority, but I have managed to cull the ultimate complete recordings of CP pulled from (in my opinion) the best remasters. Most tracks are from the most recent Yazoo sets, a few are from the JSP, a few are from the Revenant box, and the rest are from the Tefteller Calendar cd's. The Tefteller's are the missing links because they contain more recently discovered cleaner copies of Patton tracks. His remasters from cleaner copies of "Pea Vine", "Mean Black Cat", "Frankie and Albert" etc. are essential. Pea Vine being the most noticable. It's almost as if Patton is in the room with you, it's scary. The Patton box has some of the most obscure of the Patton tracks which sound awful i.e. "Jim Lee pt 2" and "Joe Kirby". I had to put a few of them up against the JSP's. I personally think the Yazoo remaster of "Down The Dirt Road" is still superior to the recent American Epic, which I think sounds a bit too quiet and less full. If anyone is interested in my full list, I can post it or email me at geffstiubhairt@gmail.com and let me know what you think.
-Cheers (a Patton fanatic)
PS Just got that full length poster of Patton from Blues Images, startling addition to my wall.

Would you mind posting your listing of which tracks you think are the best from each source? I?d love to compare, myself. I listen to the Yazoo stuff almost exclusively, thinking that, as the consensus answer, it is the best overall. But I am very interested to hear any tracks which sound better.

[btasoundsradio]

I will have to type that up soon. I just got the newest Blues Images in the mail with "Oh Death" and "Troubled Bout My Mother" on it, so I have to sit and start doing some comparisons. So far it doesn't sound that great.

[sofingraw]

Thanks! I appreciate the reply, and am excited to see what you?ve got.

Understanding that quality is to a degree subjective, I would love to hear strictly THE BEST Patton, all the time.
What a dream, to one day hear all the Patton sides in nearly perfect quality. I wonder if it will ever be possible? I think possibly, yes.

[Blind Chubby Bifster]

I will have to type that up soon. I just got the newest Blues Images in the mail with "Oh Death" and "Troubled Bout My Mother" on it, so I have to sit and start doing some comparisons. So far it doesn't sound that great.

I'd be interested to compare your list with mine, I have Patton on Yazoo, American Epic, Blues Images, JSP plus the Revanant and paramount box sets. There is certainty no definitive source at present which is frustrating. Of course in relation to the paramount sets only the tracks contained on the LP's were remastered and even then the remastering is nothing special on a lot of the tracks. There is also the fact that the digital tracks including the remastered LP tracks are in mp3!

The American epic tracks sound quiet and subdued, a little too much noise reduction perhaps? Revenant and Yazoo are noisier but less compressed and more vibrant, the revenant set doesn?t get a lot of love these days in terms of sound quality but there are gems contained within (the Willie Brown tracks for example still sound the best to my ears).

I believ JSP are basically ripped off the document label (?the horror...the horror?) but some tweaking has certainly made them more palatable but again arguably a little compressed.

Catfish... my box set was given to a charity shop. Massive noise reduction and compression Patton sounded like he was a in a different country.

Anyway enough of my inane ramblings looking forward to seeing your list.

[DerZauberer]

Quick side note: The discussion here led me down a rabbit hole of comparing all the versions I have of Willie Brown's "Future Blues". It's amazing to do these kinds of comparisons with a song you know really really well.

I still have a soft spot for the very early Yazoo transfers (talking LP era here), with Nick Perls surfing the grooves and getting the best he could in a pre-digital-cleanup time. They do sound close to the sound you get from a reasonably clean 78rpm record being played. Of course, especially on some of the real nasty noisy tracks, clean-up has done wonders. I do have a couple of Son House's "Preachin' Blues", for example, that are barely listenable in their older versions, and much more enjoyable in more recent releases.

But the Willie Brown expedition has shown me a few things:
(1) It is very hard to define an objective "best" - more hiss and crackles often also mean more clarity and high-end, a lot of clean-up sometimes results in much reduced bass present on the original recording, then there is the influence of stylus+cartridge, eqalization, etc. - what is "best"?
(2) Consistency should not be under-estimated. My Wille Brown tracks sound quite different, but they usually are "in line" with their release. On one CD, all tracks are a little "boomy", so the track fits in just fine - but compared to another compilation with a very tight bottom end, it feels completely out of place.
(3) I do like the effort put in by the "American Epic" team, on the AE releases as well as Tefteller's more recent calendar CDs. They are maybe a little on the "analytical" side (very tightened up and scrubbed, rather "modern" sounding), but overall very consistent and in most cases great improvements especially to relatively unclean copies.

The benchmark for me still ist the Robert Johnson set - then again, these are not 1929 clay-cum-garbage Paramount pressings, but based on really high quality source material (and with a lot of money behind to do so because of his popularity).

Would I love an "ultimate" Patton edition? Absolutely. Until then, I will keep switching between what I have (Paramount Boxes, JSP, various compilations, Catfish Records "The Definitive"). Do I think there is a market for such an "ultimate" edition? Probably not, Patton is much more of an acquired taste and a lot less known than RJ. Maybe, just maybe, should there be another Blues revival caused by a popular young band referencing these old heroes... does not seem likely though.

[btasoundsradio]

Sadly I don't have all the info I once did, so I had to try and retype it. It got lost in my life's many transitions. I have all the actual music on my computer in chronological order, but I don't have the sources listed. All I really know is that most of the recent Tefteller remasters have been the most revelatory sonically, with the exception of the recent "Oh Death" and vol 15's "MS Boweavil" and Screamin And Hollerin'", which are not as good as the last Yazoo remastering. I know a few of them were from JSP, but I don't know which. A few of the American Epic were used as well. The revenant set and maybe a few Document cuts fill in the gaps. BUT I think this list is accurate, there may not actually be JSP cuts on there (with corrected titles!):
1. Mississippi Boll Weavil Blues - Yazoo
2. Screamin' and Hollerin' The Blues - Yazoo
3. Down The Dark Road (Over The Sea) Blues - Blues Images
4. Pony Blues - Blues Images
5. Banty Rooster Blues - Yazoo
6. It Won't Be Long - Yazoo
7. Pea Vine Blues - Blues Images
8. Tom Rushing Blues - Blues Images
9. A Spoonful Blues - Blues Images
10. Shake It and Break It (Don't Let It Fall Mama) - Blues Images
11. Prayer Of Death pt. 1 - Yazoo
12. Prayer Of Death pt. 2 - Yazoo
13. Lord I'm Discouraged - Blues Images
14. I'm Goin' Home - Blues Images
15. Gonna Move To Alabama - Blues Images
16. Elder Green Blues - Yazoo
17. Elder Green Blues (alt. take) - Yazoo
18. Circle 'Round The Moon - Revenant
19. Devil Sent The Rain - Revenant
20. Mean Black Cat - Blues Images
21. Frankie and Albert - Blues Images
22. Some Of These Days - Blues Images
23. Some Of These Days - (alt take) - Blues Images
24. Green River Blues - Yazoo
25. Farrell Blues (Henry Sims) - Revenant   
26. Corrina Blues (Henry Sims) - Revenant
27. Tell Me Man Blues (Henry Sims) - Revenant
28. Be True Be True Blues (Henry Sims) - Revenant
29. Hammock Blues - Yazoo
30. Hammer Blues (Hammock Blues) (Alt. take) - Revenant
31. When Your Way Gets Dark - Revenant
32. Magnolia Blues (When Your Way Gets Dark) - Blues Images
33. Heart Like Railroad Steel - Revenant
34. Some Happy Day - Yazoo
35. You're Gonna Need Somebody on Your Bond - Yazoo
36. Jim Lee pt. 1 - Yazoo
37. Jim Lee pt. 2 - Revenant
38. High Water Everywhere pt. 1 - Blues Images
39. High Water Everywhere pt. 2 - Blues Images
40. Jesus Is A Dying-Bed Maker - Blues Images
41. I Shall Not Be Moved - Yazoo
42. I Shall Not Be Moved (alt take) - Document
(apparently there are 2 listed alt. takes to this cut, but maybe that is a mistake, I couldn't figure it out)
43. Rattlesnake Blues - Yazoo
44. Runnin' Wild - Yazoo
45. Joe Kirby Blues - Revenant
46. Mean Black Moan - Revenant
47. Dry Well Blues - Yazoo
48. Some Summer Day pt. 1 - Yazoo
49. Moon Goin' Down - Yazoo
50. Bird Nest Bound - Yazoo
51. Jersey Bull Blues - Yazoo
52. High Sheriff Blues - Yazoo
53. Stone Pony Blues - Yazoo
54. Yellow Bee (Bertha Lee) - Yazoo
55. Mind Reader Blues (Bertha Lee) - Yazoo
56. 34 Blues - Yazoo
57. Love My Stuff - Blues Images
58. Revenue Man Blues - Yazoo
59. Oh Death (w/ Bertha Lee) - Yazoo
60. Troubled 'Bout My Mother (w/ Bertha Lee) - Yazoo
61. Poor Me - Yazoo
62. Hang It On The Wall - Yazoo
 

[btasoundsradio]

Here also is the ULTIMATE sounding Tommy Johnson discography:
Tommy Johnson Discography (Best Masters)
1928 Victor Sessions (w/ Charlie McCoy)
1. Cool Drink Of Water Blues - Memphis Blues Singers Vol. 1 Frog Records (John RT Davies)
2. Big Road Blues - Memphis Blues Singers Vol. 1 Frog Records (John RT Davies)
3. Bye Bye Blues - Memphis Blues Singers Vol. 1 Frog Records (John RT Davies)
4. Maggie Campbell Blues - Memphis Blues Singers Vol. 1 Frog Records (John RT Davies)
(solo 1928 Victor Sessions)
5. Canned Heat Blues - Memphis Blues Vol. 2 Frog Records (John RT Davies)
6. Big Fat Mama Blues - Memphis Blues Vol. 2 Frog Records (John RT Davies)
7. Lonesome Home Blues - Memphis Blues Vol. 2 Frog Records (John RT Davies)
8. Lonesome Home Blues (Test) - Blues Images Vol. 8
1929 Paramount Sessions
9. Alcohol and Jake Blues - Blues Images vol. 12
10. Ridin' Horse - Blues Images vol. 12
11. I Want Someone To Love Me - Blues Images vol. 1
12. I Want Someone To Love Me (longer Version) - Canned Heat Blues
13. I Wonder To Myself - Blues Images vol. 15
14. Slidin' Delta - The Stuff That Dreams Are Made Of vol. 1Yazoo
15. Lonesome Home Blues - The Return of Stuff That Dreams Are Made Of Yazoo
16. Black Mare Blues tk. 1 (w/ NOLA Nehi Boys) - Canned Heat Blues
17. Black Mare Blues tk. 2  (w/ NOLA Nehi Boys) -  Canned Heat Blues
18. Morning Prayer Blues (test) - Canned Heat Blues
19. Bogalusa Woman (test) - Times Ain't Like They Used To Be (Yazoo)

[CF]

"I Want Someone to Love Me" the longer version??? Can you elaborate, never heard of such a thing?

[btasoundsradio]

This other remastering I found on this "Canned Heat Blues" collection is slightly longer than the Tefteller version, the audio isn't as good but is more than 30 seconds longer.

[CF]

Interesting, do you know what label that is on?

[Stuart]

Interesting, do you know what label that is on?

It looks like it was included on the Wolf release of their earlier 1983 LP compilation. The CD release contains additional songs:

https://www.discogs.com/Tommy-Johnson-Canned-Heat-Blues-Complete-Recordings-In-Chronological-Order-1928-1929/master/735344

https://www.discogs.com/release/5929880-Canned-Heat-Blues-Complete-Recordings-In-Chronological-Order-1928-1929/images

https://www.wirz.de/music/wolf.htm

https://www.wirz.de/music/johnsont.htm

I don't have the CD, nor have I listened to it.

It's possible that the track length is simply an error, or that additional sound was removed at the end (fade out) of the test pressing CD recording by the other reissue labels. The "Times Ain't Like They Used To Be Vol 8" recording sounds identical to the Blues Images recording.

[btasoundsradio]

"It's possible that the track length is simply an error, or that additional sound was removed at the end (fade out) of the test pressing CD recording by the other reissue labels. The "Times Ain't Like They Used To Be Vol 8" recording sounds identical to the Blues Images recording."

That's why I included the Canned Heat Blues version as well. There's a fade out on that one, but there is 30 seconds more music.

[Stuart]

Thanks for the info. I was basing my guesswork on John Teftteller's quoted statement at Stefan's site re: the two test pressings.

Is it available anywhere other than on the Wolf release?

[jostber]

Another available recent Charley Patton compllation is in the Rough Guide series:

https://worldmusic.net/store/item/RGNET1268/