Topic: Robert Johnsons's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips

[GhostRider]

Howdy Folks:

Sorry about all the posts, but I've lived in a CB vacuum here for ages, and I have lots of questions.

This one concerns Robert Johnson's famous turnaround he used in various forms for all his standard tuning, Key of A tunes (Kind Hearted Woman Blues etc.). Pedal tone on high E string 5th fret coupled with the decending bass line on the D string. I always thought that this was his own idea (maybe it was) until I heard "Mama, Quittin' and Leavin'" by Funny Papa Smith (one of my favorite tunes, I think FPS was the best writer of blues lyrics in the 30's). For over half of the verses, FPS uses the exact same turnaround, although played with a different tempo. Since FPS recorded 6-7 years before Johnson, I?wonder whether Johnson had picked up this, one of his signature licks, from that (Texas-Okla.) area, around which he was known to have travelled.

Do any of you know of any others who used and/or recorded?this A turnaround prior to Johnson's recording? Was this lick? "common" in the Texas area? Or am I just out to lunch.

Eating a sandwich,
Thanks for your patience,
Alex

[Rivers]

You mean this one?

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At first I thought Scrapper Blackwell, Johnny Temple, Lonnie Johnson, but drew a blank on finding that exact move. I hadn't made the Funny Papa Smith connection until you mentioned it. Piano lick transferred to guitar do you think?

If you don't have it already I'd recommend Yazoo 1073 The Roots Of Robert Johnson, the music, remastering and concept is superb.

[GhostRider]

Rivers

Yeah, that's the one.

Alex

[waxwing]

And now there is Yazoo 2070? Back to the Crossroads, a companion CD to Elijah Wald's book, Escaping the Delta. There are 11 titles common to both but the new one has another 12 sides, and there are 3 sides unique to the original. Interestingly, Elijah stated, at his book signing, that he was unaware of the "Roots of..." CD when he approached Yazoo to do the companion CD. I just skipped through all the sides on both CDs and couldn't find any with the A turnaround.
Hey, how do you guys like my new avatar? Thanks, Slack.
All for now.
John C.

[frankie]

Hi Waxwing - the Jug Stompers rewl!? Try linking to this one:

http://www.donegone.net/images/cjs.jpg

I trimmed the border and shrunk it down a bit.

Re: turnarounds - I don't have that particular FPS tune to hand, but a similar lick shows up in the playing of Ramblin' Thomas, both in A (No Baby Blues) and G (Lock and Key Blues).? They have slightly different contours than RJ's lick - in particular, the run he does in G is a little more stripped down and avoids the flattened 6th degree of the scale altogether.

In No Baby Blues, RT uses some neat counterpoint - a descending line from G to E and an ascending line from C sharp to E.? The sound appeals to me, generally, but probably sounds less 'slick' overall.

I do love Ramblin' Thomas, though.

[lindy]

According to this little tidbit, maybe you can ask Eric next time you see him . . .

Clapton Covers Robert Johnson: Eric Clapton will release an entire album
of covers of songs by Robert Johnson on March 23. "Me and Mr. Johnson" will
feature the guitar legend's interpretations of fourteen songs by the Delta
Blues legend, including Love in Vain and Hellhound on My Trail.

[uncle bud]

I could be wrong because I'm going from rather distant (and possibly false) memory, but I think I vaguely recall Paul Rishell saying this was taken from Scrapper Blackwell, possibly a Leroy Carr number. Non-committal enough for you? I would have to check. Obviously 

[uncle bud]

Or was it possibly a John Miller class where he did a Scrapper/Leroy tune?
uncle bud <-- not in possession of a photographic memory

[GhostRider]

UB:

Hang in there Uncle Bud. We're not getting better, we're getting older (what was his name again?).

Alex

[dave stott]

In my efforts to learn Robert Johnson's song, Phonograph Blues, I found an article that stated that he played the song in the key of A, with a capo on the 2nd fret...

Am i missing something?

Doesn't placing a capo on the 2nd fret turn it into the Key of A???

if I am off base, please steer me back on course...

[Johnm]

Hi Dave,
Welcome to Weenie Campbell!  What the statement should have said was in the A position in standard tuning, capoed to the second fret (which will sound in B).
All best,
Johnm

[Lwoodblues]

Possible that he was playing in open G and capo 2 would put it in A. Haven't done the research though.
 Lwood

[dabluz]

i know very little about that sort of thing, but i think both answers are correct given the incomplete reference regarding "A" and "capoed to second fret". to show just how stupid i am,  i think open g tunning would be (6th to 1st) DGDGBD. don't know for sure but, if that is open g tunning, then a capo at the second fret would make the notes, played open, EAEAC#E, if thats correct, then when i play an A cord in standard tuning the notes are  EAEAC#E which is the same, correct? but how come when i play a G major root cord in standard tunning the notes are GBDGBG but yet "open G" is DGDGBD? like i said, i'm pretty stupid. oh boy, here comes all that useful info about majors and 7ths and flatted thirds and relevent 5ths, which i wish i knew.

[thumbstyle]

Howdy dabluz,

You can think of all these chords as being made up of three notes. In the case of the G chord, it's the notes G, B and D. Since a guitar has six strings, and this type of chord has three notes, when you form the chord on the guitar you'll end up doubling the notes in various ways. Which notes you double, and in which order they sound (from lower pitch to higher), determines the sound of a particular chord "voicing".

So when you play your basic open G chord in standard tuning (GBDGBG,) this is one particular way to order those three notes. And playing the open strings in open G tuning (DGDGBD) is another way to order the notes. They are both valid G chords, but they have different sounds because the pitches are arranged differently (they are different voicings of the G chord).

Now, you're right that the notes are the same for an A chord in standard tuning and for open G tuning capoed at the 2nd fret. This is because these two chord forms have the same arrangement of pitches -- they are the same voicing. Think about how you get your guitar from standard tuning to open G. You can think of open G as a sneaky way to get your guitar to mimic the pitches (actually, the pitch relationships) of an A chord. You could change your guitar from standard tuning to "open A" tuning simply by raising the pitch of the 4th, 3rd, and 2nd strings by two frets. But since tightening strings increases the stress on the guitar, we generally do the opposite and lower the pitch on strings 6, 5, and 1. You end up with the same relationship between the strings, only a whole step lower.

This is not that intuitive, but it's worth thinking about it some. It'll give you a better understanding of your guitar and how to play in open tunings.

Cheers,
Dave

[waxwing]

This is why many of us call this "Spanish" tuning, which is how it was often referred to, perhaps from the old Spanish Fandango which is played in this tuning. It is very likely that many of the older players, concerned more with volume than longevity of their guitars, perhaps, more often tuned up to A. Muddy Waters was recorded responding to a question by Lomax, "What tuning? 'A'.......Spanish." Certainly you could say that it is an open tuning voiced like an A chord in Standard, as Dave described.

Vastapol is the same way. It has the same voicing as an E chord, you could tune two strings up two frets each and one string up one fret, however it is more in fashion to tune 3 strings down two frets and one string down one fret. and call it Open D even tho' it is voiced the same as an E chord in Standard.

Because these tunings are so commonly referred to as Open G and Open D does not in any way imply that the older players tune to these pitches. In the case of Robert Johnson it seems highly unlikely that he did not normally tune Spanish at around A.

Check out the threads by these names on the main board.

All for now.
John C.