Topic: parlor/concert guitar pics, Supertone, Lyon and Healey, Raymond

[Pod]

Hi Gents
and especially Big Hollow Twang
more pics of parlor /concert guitars, enjoy.

Left to right Supertone, Hawaiin scene, came with a split back, loose braces ,loose sides, extreme playing wear, and a thinned bendy neck, fitted CF stiffener, Birch body ebony fret board with new bridge with Fishman pickup, killer electric tone.
LnH jupiter LB 12 1/4" UB 9 1/4"
Raymond , mystery guitar, spruce top oak back and sides, rosewood fret and headstock veneer,
new copy bridge LB 13 1/4" UB 9 1/2 ", 24 1/4 " scale (approx)
Extreme right Supertone mahogany boody with cool MOTS pickguard, new bridge needed.



Rear views same order


Raymond soundhole showing purfling/ band detail


Supertone mahogany front



Raymond Oak back

I would appreciate any help on the origins of the Raymond.
Maple neck , spruce top, Oak back and sides, bevelled kerfing top and bottom, braces similar dimms to Supertone but thinner than LnH.
Back centre seam. Rosewood fret board and H Stock veneer.
Oak stained a dark yellow ( had to match this with spirit stains and FP for the side crack repair, hours of fun!)
Nice wedge at end pin (ebony with pearl dot) , pearl fret marks at 5 ,7, 10 (yeah , I love the dot at ten)
very similar to Lnh in construction but slightly better made, I reset the neck , repaired a major crack in the side, added a CF neck stiffener and made  a new bridge, it has brass tuners. A lovely some what dry sounding guitar , loud and clear without the sonorous bass of the Ln H.
This guitar is on a par for volume with my OS Stella but I need to play the strings in to make a final judgement on the sound.
The top is thin and has a pretty deep soundhole dip, needed a big wedge under the tongue after the reset.


The Mahogany Supertone is a babe , great sound from a small body , nasty frets though.

I am in dilemna over the bridge repair, it came with a badly made mahogany stained pyramid bridge ( didnt look original) and was pulling a bad belly into the LB top.
The bridge plate is a narrow strip running the full width of the lower bout and is essentially similar to my two tailpiece parlours, it has telltale holes where a tailpiece was fitted at some past time.
I tried a tailpiece on it and it plays great and is stable but looks sad with the bare patch and holes.

What do you guys think, new pyramid bridge  or fill holes refinish and go with a tailpiece, Im leaning for the tailpiece.
Thanks for your thoughts.
And sorry Zack they are all strung with PB D Addario custom or extralights, I will try nickel strings for the next bulk buy.
Pod

[bighollowtwang]

I saw you posted these on the IGS board...very very nice!

Sorry but I have no info for you on the Raymond guitar, although it looks like it could have been made by Lyon & Healy - that's only a semi-educated guess, though. L&H produced a bewildering number of brand names, and had a wide range of ornamentation and build quality. The Jupiter is near the bottom of the L&H totem pole, but I really love mine.
If I can find out more about who made the Raymond, I'll post the info here. I know I've seen a few of them before and they always looked like L&H to me, but I have been known to be totally wrong about that sort of thing.
 
The mugwumps.com directory of pre-WWII brand names indicates that Raymond was a Wurlitzer brand name, but that might only apply to banjos sold under that name. Like I said, I don't know too much about these specific guitars.

I don't think I'd put a tailpiece on that pretty little Supertone. I know it's the quicker, least expensive fix...but the correct thing to do would be to replace the bridge plate and get a good pin bridge on there. Ultimately it's your guitar and your choice, but personally I've always felt that we are very lucky to have playable guitars from the same era as the music we're in love with, and that we have an obligation to keep these instruments in good health so that future generations of musicians can enjoy them after us.

[uncle bud]

I'm no guitar expert, but I agree with Zack about that Supertone. That's a beauty and if it sounds good as you say seems worth fixing right. I think Todd Cambio restored a model like this (may be wrong) and he may have something to say.

[natterjack]

Check out this topic for a picture of the guitar Todd Cambio restored. It's pretty much identical.

More pictures of said guitar here.

[chipmonk doug]

Love the Silvertone.

That was the kind of look I was going for when I had this made.

[rpg51]

If it were my guitar I would follow the advice given above and go with a pin bridge.

[Pod]

Thanks for the replies and opinions.
Pin bridge it is , probably refret while Im at it.
OK BHT have you got a cunning way to change the bridge plate without taking the back off?
i checked todd Cambios restore and its the same model, just wondered if any one had seen these in original state with a tailpiece.

The other hawaian Supertone has a similar bridge plate  and pin bridge so i will copy that.
These Superones have the least neck V of all my old parlors, if you like that sort of thing. The Raymond is similar but has an offset V, I think this is deliberate, the bass string side has a longer edge, fits the hand very well, anyone come across this before.
Shame about the pic quality , next sunny day I will retake with natural light.
Cheers
Pod

[bighollowtwang]

OK BHT have you got a cunning way to change the bridge plate without taking the back off?

No, I don't think that would be possible.
It is entirely possible that the bridge plate is ok, you only need to change it if it looks cracked or distorted somehow.

Taking the back off a guitar isn't very difficult either. These were made with hide glue so all you need to do is heat up the glue seams with some steam (I use my friend's espresso machine and a rubber hose equipped with a small nozzle from a bicycle pump...I need to get a real steamer one of these days). Make sure you have the sides compressed so that they don't spread outwards when the back is removed. I use a flat piece of plywood on which I lay the guitar face down, and use small wood blocks to support the sides all around the perimeter of the body. Crude, but it works just fine.




Sorry if I'm stating the obvious here...

[Cambio]

You can take the bridgeplate out without taking the back off, working through the sound hole, but it requires a lot of patience.   It's a tricky repair and if you're just starting out on guitar repair, you'll want to do it on some real junkers before working on anything of value.  I use a small tack iron which I purchased at a hobby shop, but you can sometimes find small travel irons that do the trick, and some palette knifes that I get from the local art store.  You want to heat up the bridgeplate to the point that the glue loosens up, but you don't want to heat up the top too much or you'll damage the finish.  It's a fine line.  After the glue starts to loosen, you start to work the palette knife into the joint to free the bridgeplate from the top.  It usually takes over an hour just to get the bridgeplate out and you inevitably burn the hell out of your hand from handling a hot iron for that long.  I should add that you also want to be careful not to dig the palette knife into the top or, heaven forbid, through the top. 
Check out Frank Ford's method:
http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/Structural/NewBridgePlate/newbrplt1.html

I've removed a lot of bridgeplates and have never had to remove a back specifically for that repair.  Taking a back off a guitar isn't necessarily hard, but putting it back on correctly can really be a pain.  It should only be done when absolutely necessary, otherwise you're just making more work for yourself. 
Good Luck,
Todd

[onewent]

..this one's marked Stella on the MOTS headstock, w/ spruce top..I've seen two others on this thread that look similar

[Pod]

Hi Gents
Zack
thanks for the pic very helpful, the supertone in question has a bound back does that compicate things or is it a matter of removing the binding first? you helped out already when I was looking for an ID for my LnH Jupiter , much appreciated.

Todd
Ive worked on a fair bit of junk and some nice old guitars and Im happy with heat , French polish and i think i could recite some of Frank Fords site off by heart.!
I have steered clear of removing backs up to now but i have a reall low quality junker i could try it out on first.

one went

My Stella is a dead ringer for the one in your pic , sadly missing the cool pickguard though, its may  favourite old timer and has a very individual sound.

The mahogany Supertone is definetely not a Stella , has bevelled upper kerfings and the characteristic Supertone subtle bump on the headstock end plus remains of an old Supertone label.

It has an interesting brace addition around the sound hole, mini radial braces have been added , 4 in total to help prevent the sound hole dip, a good  previous repair , otherwise it is structurally very sound with no cracks or loose braces, neck angle is almost bearable too. Good for slide as they say.

Once again gents, many thanks , this sort of help is invaluable and I really appreciate all your replies.
Cheers
pod

[dj]

one went,

   My Stella is also a dead ringer for the one you posted, right down to the inlaid bridge pins, but mine lacks a pickguard and has an ebonized fingerboard, and, since it was built as a hawaiian, has a raised nut and bridge.  Previous to your picture, the only Stellas I've seen with that trim, bridge, and sunburst finish have all been hawaiians.  (I'm assuming yours isn't hawaiian - is it?)

   

[Pod]

Heres my stella , missing pickguard original tuners and the ebonising has worn off.

Cheers
Pod

[onewent]

Pod:  yes, dead ringer and your photo sort of confirms that the bridge on mine is probably original.  I had some evidence that it was changed or removed because of a finish shadow just below the bridge.  Interestingly, the intonation is off about 1/16"

.. check your brace just south of the sound hole .. mine is ink-stamped: 30 4990 .. also, there is pencil writing on the underside of the top .. letters and numbers.
I'm not sure how this guitar was originally set up, but came to me w/ standard nut.

[Pod]

Hi onewent
the bridge seems like dyed maple, the dye is worn through on the bass side, no pyramids , flat wings gently radiused, mine looks stock.
Came with an ebony std height nut .
yup my intonation is off a tad too, but I rarely get to the dusty end except with the slide..
My neck has a slight up bow around the 3rd fret , i plan on adding a CF stiffener and when I can work up the courage , as is it plays great .
I will check the brace and top, but i looked before and dont recall seeing anything.
Its a real survivor, well build with a great allround loud sound, I really rate birch bodies and spruce tops, a greatly underrated combo.
The finish shadow is possibly from the poor original finish, its not easy to FP the top once the bridge is glued on, got the same effect on the Hawain Supertone.
Cheers
pod

[onewent]

..thanks, Pod, for the info .. use a flashlight on the brace, I have other Stellas w/ stamps there, too, I think it was a fairly common practice and the bodies of these two are identical as far as the pictures tell.  It would be cool to find common lot #'s, if that's indeed what they are.

The shadow line below the bridge is, I think, bridge creep..possibly from a hot room/car etc. 

The description of your bridge matches mine to a 't'.  I'm going to have to make a new bridge for this one because the orig is cracked a bit through the pin holes, so, if all goes well, I'll correct the intonation on the new bridge by adjusting where the slot is cut.  I don't want to move the bridge location or it will leave more of the 'shadow' showing on that beautifully patinated 'burst.

[Pod]

hi one went
Just checked the OS Stella internals with a mirror and flashlight, nada, no numbers on brace S of sound hole and no pencil marks. Shame. Everything internal was A1 though, good wide bridge plate and the grain lines on the soundboard were tight, pretty dark wood , looks darker than Sitka spruce, but at this age who knows.

Looked in the Mahog Supertone, the bridge plate is sound , so a new bridge it is, will refret while I am at it.

Checked Stewmac for pickguard material but they dont have the MOTS stuff apart from laminated for electrics, got any sources?
Cheers
Pod

[onewent]

..Pod, thanks for lookin'  .. re the MOTS, the stew-mac has Pearloid sheets but it's w/b/w laminated, item #1040 .. maybe Mike Hauver, who does Neil Harp's restorations, knows a source. 
Might have to start buying some old accordians..  ;-)

..ok, did 5 min of google research and warmoth.com has solid pearloid in 10x12 sheets for $34, so we can save the accordians!

[blueshome]

"we can save the accordians!"

Nah! into the trash with the banjoes!

[onewent]

Stella guts...heel block appears poplar, end block, sassafras?  In addition to the stamp on the brace, there are pencil marks near the bridge  plate and sound hold brace.

[Pod]

Nice pics . Very obvious marks , maybe Neil Harpe could help with these?
I hope the back went on OK after that major surgery.
I hope I never have to do that to my Stella.
Interesting to see how lightly braced the top is.
Cheers
Pod