Topic: Country Blues in the Public Domain

[r.mack]

Hello to all.
My name is Ron, it's been a while since i posted. I searched the forum looking for information about country blues songs that are in the public domain that I can can play on guitar and record, and not have to pay royalties, if there is such a thing.
Are there any particular Country blues artist who's music can be recorded and used in a project that doesn't require payment? Thank to all.

[waxwing]

Hi Ron,

Welcome to Weenie Campbell.

I self produced a CD about 15 years ago. What I learned is that actually not much of early blues songs have actively maintained copyright claims. You're not really going to find a list of those songs that are, essentially, PD, but you can search for any song at various publishing organizations, i.e. Harry Fox, BMI and ASCAP, to see if there is a claim. Pick a song you want to record, go to each of these sites, and search to see if you find the song. If you are clearly covering a specific artist's recording you can search by artist.

Don't be fooled when you see that there is a copyright held by a modern artist. For instance, Stefan Grossman holds one on Mississippi Blues, if I recall correctly, but that is strictly his arrangement, and if your version is clearly based on William Brown's (as his is) he has no claim (like if you actually sing the words). All songs from the early era would have had to have been renewed sometime in the early '60s, I believe, and most record companies did not foresee the market that would arise some years later, so most have lapsed. Also, the families (if any) and record companies of artists who died in the era, longer than 75 years ago, no longer hold copyright claims. I recently had someone attempt to monetize one of my YouTube videos of a Charley Patton tune using a copyright claim. I responded that my performance was based on Charley's recording and that he had died in 1934 and therefore copyright was expired. The ads disappeared in a week.

Anyway, pick a song you might want to put on your CD, search at HF (SongFile), BMI and ASCAP, make PDF copies of your searches if they come up empty, and put them all in a folder. If you are having your CD professionally pressed, a reputable company will ask you for copies of all your searches and will hold them for you in the event some company notices you are selling hundreds of thousands of CDs and makes a claim not previously registered with any of the above, you can prove due diligence and, at worst, will have to pay the fee, which is not all that exorbitant, especially if you are really selling that many CDs. But believe me, if you sell a hundred or so on CDBaby over the first few years, and a couple here and there at gigs, you're just not gonna pop up on anybody's radar for a song they haven't posted to one of those sites. When I did mine about 3 out of 14 songs came up with listed copyright claims, which I paid for 1000 copies and digital rights and it was less than $400 IIRC. Unless you have reviewers lined up in online magazines and blogs, deals with DJs around the country, and are doing promoted tours, I would opt for a small batch of 200 CDs. I still have about 800 of the 1000 I had pressed.

Don't be daunted by this. A copyright is only a claim, and in many cases is not warranted. If you are struggling with the issue of feeling that you are denying the heirs of an artists form the 1920s, rest assured that the publishing and recording companies have created a system that only rewards the big sellers and most of the money paid for copyright, regardless of who actually wrote the song, goes to the big name modern performers and their record companies. You can google discussions and articles about ASCAP and others to learn more about this, but there is very, very little trickle down to the families of a handful of performers, not counting Robert Johnson, of course. To me the ethical issue is moot, and if you are selling a handful of CDs you are not worth coming after. Just do your due diligence with the searches and put your mind at ease.

More importantly, have fun making the CD!

Wax

[r.mack]

Hi Wax Wing,

Thank you for your detailed answer, it's much appreciated.

Wax Wing wrote: "I recently had someone attempt to monetize one of my YouTube videos of a Charley Patton tune using a copyright claim. I responded that my performance was based on Charley's recording and that he had died in 1934 and therefore copyright was expired. The ads disappeared in a week."

I find that interesting.
 
 Wax Wing wrote: "Don't be fooled when you see that there is a copyright held by a modern artist. For instance, Stefan Grossman holds one on Mississippi Blues, if I recall correctly, but that is strictly his arrangement, and if your version is clearly based on William Brown's (as his is) he has no claim (like if you actually sing the words)."

So your saying if I learned, for example a, Furry Lewis song from someone teaching the song on Youtube the person teaching the song doesn't have a legal claim because they didn't write the song even though it may be their arrangement? Or, are you saying that if i add something to the arrangement (or something that was in the original recording) that they didn't, then they don't have a legitimate claim?

Thanks again.
R. Mack

[waxwing]

Perhaps "Mississippi Blues" was not the best example. William Brown was recorded playing "Mississippi Blues" by Alan Lomax and John Work for the Library of Congress, not for a commercial record company. I don't believe there was a copyright on the original, so by creating a somewhat different arrangement Stefan may have felt there was no impediment to copyrighting his arrangement. But that doesn't mean he has a copyright on anyone's version based on the original, which clearly existed before he was born. But normally, making a slightly different arrangement than the original does not constitute a copyrightable version, nor does it evade a copyright on the song, which includes melody and lyrics more importantly than arrangement. Stefan cannot claim the song, just his arrangement.

It's been a while since I was investigating all this stuff, but I believe that in order to copyright an arrangement, the arrangement must be strongly different from the original, an agreement must be reached with the copyright holder, and a fee must be paid. And credit for the original must still be given. Another song I'm working on, and may put up on YouTube, that might be an example would be "Fishing Blues" by Henry Thomas. I just googled Taj Mahal's lyrics, which are somewhat different than the original lyrics. I noticed on that page that songwriting credit was given to Taj, even tho the song clearly existed before he was born. If I post that and find ads popping up I will contest it on those grounds as I will sing Henry Thomas's lyrics, not to mention I will play the quill parts, too. It's important to remember that a copyright is just a claim, and that can be argued and adjudicated. Many record companies will claim a copyright knowing that it would seem daunting to hire a lawyer to fight it when we are really not talking about a lot of money, But by the same token it's not really worth it for them to have a lawyer spend a couple hours going after a hundred dollars, even if he is on staff. So, again, unless you're expecting a big seller, in the thousands at least, there's not much to worry about, particularly if you have done due diligence and the song is not listed anywhere.

Many Rock stars in the '60s claimed copyright on songs that were recorded in the '20s and '30s and claimed to have written them. Others listed them as "Traditional" to avoid paying copyright. Many of these have later been turned around. Recently Eric Clapton was ordered to pay restitution to the estate of Bo Carter (Armenter Chatmon) for his use of the melody and some lyrics from "Corrine, Corrina" which Clapton recorded as "Alberta, Alberta". Obviously his arrangement probably wasn't too similar to Bo's.

Nothing I've every read about copyright is straight forward. I'm a social worker, not a lawyer, so these are just my opinions here. But I think if, as I said, you do due diligence, a standard search for copyright claims at the known websites, maintain the proof, and you're only going to be selling a handful of CDs, you pretty much don't have to worry about an obscure company tracking you down for a minimal payment. But definitely educate yourself as much as you can about the process. Relying on posts on a country blues forum, mine included, is not really enough, but I hope this is helpful.

Wax

[Stuart]

Here's a link to an older post:

http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=4995.msg38158#msg38158

[waxwing]

Stuart you are conflating several different issues there. We are discussing essentially publishing rights for producing a recording of new performances of published songs. As self producers of CDs we may fall under copyright claims. But performance rights are a separate issue, and unless we are owners of the establishment in which we perform, have no claim on the hundred bucks, or whatever, we did or didn't get paid. It is entirely up to the club or restaurant owner to pay the BMI or ASCAP performance fee, which is likely an annual fee. Some of the articles and stories about this are pretty apocryphal. If someone with no credentials walked up to me at a farmers Market and demanded a cut of my tips for ASCAP I'd laugh in their face. If they had credentials I might ask them to list the songs I'd played which they claimed were covered, and then laugh in their face. But more likely I'd direct them to the company that manages the market. Agents for BMI or ASCAP have no right whatsoever to approach musicians who are playing in a managed venue.

One of those previous topics was about the right to re-release recordings that were previously copyrighted, which is really off this topic.

But thanks for posting the couple that I had posted to 10 or so years ago that were on topic. It seems my memory ain't half bad, altho I forgot about that whole Floyd Dixon thing with "Mississippi Blues". Cracked me up. That I was so hung up on it. For what it's worth, LoC has never contacted me, nor have my several YT vids of MB ever been monetized by a claimant.

r.mack, you may be interested in the second Weenie Campbell topic that Stuart posted, in which I posted a link to the Wikipedia entry on US copyright law and provided some pertinent excerpts.

Wax

[Stuart]

Wax:

Sorry for the thread drift. I wasn't conflating the various issues, just posting links to previous topics and articles that I thought Ron and others might be find interesting. I thought of starting a separate topic, but figured that might be overdoing it. But I'll do it so the tread stays on topic. I'll leave your post in the thread and you can revise your comments accordingly.

[alyoung]

Recently Eric Clapton was ordered to pay restitution to the estate of Bo Carter (Armenter Chatmon) for his use of the melody and some lyrics from "Corrine, Corrina" which Clapton recorded as "Alberta, Alberta". Obviously his arrangement probably wasn't too similar to Bo's.


Wax

Perhaps the judge making the order knew that the recording of Alberta Blues the Mississippi Sheiks made at their first session, in 1930, was a version of Corrine with only the the name changed -- "Alberta, Alberta...." instead of "Corrine Corrina". Bo Carter doesn't play on Alberta, but he was at the session, and the song is very much a descendant of the Corrine Corrina that he made in 1928.

[r.mack]

Stuart you are conflating several different issues there. We are discussing essentially publishing rights for producing a recording of new performances of published songs. As self producers of CDs we may fall under copyright claims. But performance rights are a separate issue, and unless we are owners of the establishment in which we perform, have no claim on the hundred bucks, or whatever, we did or didn't get paid. It is entirely up to the club or restaurant owner to pay the BMI or ASCAP performance fee, which is likely an annual fee. Some of the articles and stories about this are pretty apocryphal. If someone with no credentials walked up to me at a farmers Market and demanded a cut of my tips for ASCAP I'd laugh in their face. If they had credentials I might ask them to list the songs I'd played which they claimed were covered, and then laugh in their face. But more likely I'd direct them to the company that manages the market. Agents for BMI or ASCAP have no right whatsoever to approach musicians who are playing in a managed venue.

One of those previous topics was about the right to re-release recordings that were previously copyrighted, which is really off this topic.

But thanks for posting the couple that I had posted to 10 or so years ago that were on topic. It seems my memory ain't half bad, altho I forgot about that whole Floyd Dixon thing with "Mississippi Blues". Cracked me up. That I was so hung up on it. For what it's worth, LoC has never contacted me, nor have my several YT vids of MB ever been monetized by a claimant.

r.mack, you may be interested in the second Weenie Campbell topic that Stuart posted, in which I posted a link to the Wikipedia entry on US copyright law and provided some pertinent excerpts.

Wax

Hi Waxwing,
I will check out the links that Stuart posted. Thanks again for taking the time to write such a detailed response. It's appreciated

Stuart, I thank you as well.

[waxwing]

You're welcome, Ron

Thanks for streamlining the topic, Stuart. It's been quoted so no sense changing my post. I think the new topic is fine, altho' use of a "copyright" tag on the posts might have been better? Any mods about?

Wax

[Stuart]

Wax:

I thought that you might want to move part of your post to the new thread just to keep things straight for future reference, but it's your call. And for the moderators, by all means feel free to modify the topic name and/or content as you see fit.

Re: The farmer's market / fair copyright enforcers part. IIRC, there was a post by one of the musicians that included a link to an online newspaper article about it, but I can't recall when and where it was posted. I didn't bookmark it as it struck me as an example of extreme greed and absurdity. But rest assured, I didn't make it up, although when I think about it I almost wish I did, given to what it speaks to.  As for "laughing in their face," I applaud your restraint and civility.