Topic: Right hand help!

[Laura]

I recently recorded myself playing Dave van Ronks version of "That'll never happen no more" and it really suffers because of my picking.  I've never really taken much notice of what my right hand is doing as it seems to sound alright..but playing it back I can see that so much improvement could be made if I could fix my lazy index finger!

I hardly ever use my index finger to pick the second string so my middle finger alternates 1st and second strings while I use my index only on the 3rd string.  I've been learning John Miller's "Mistreatin' Mama" and forced myself to start using my index as it was just too fast to play with one finger! Trouble is, I think I have been playing like this too long and can't seem to break the habit. I'll play  song well at slow speed using the "correct" fingering but when I start to get into it at tempo it all goes back to my old style

My question is : Not using my index finger on the 2nd string is going to hold me back, right?  I also don't "root" my pinky to the guitar body which i've noticed everyone do..Having tried it it feels completely unnatural and uncomfortable - is this another thing I'm going to have to train myself to do?

Does anyone have any suggestions/comments?

[ScottN]

Hi Laura - I'm sure others will have lots of ideas but one thing that helps me with my right hand (and comes from Mr Miller himself - thanks John), is to play the difficult passages with your right hand only (don't even fret the left hand at first), then add the left hand after you're more comfortable.  The extra concentration on the right really seems to help and it actually works pretty quickly (minutes versus hours).

Re: minimal use of the index finger, I think there are many incredible pickers out of the hybrid picking camp (flatpick held between the index and thumb, middle and index pick on their own) and in terms of straight fingerpicking, I think the amazingly good Jerry Reed made minimal use of his index with much more use of middle and ring.  Good luck with whichever method you choose :-)

[uncle bud]

Hi Laura,

Reverting back to your old style when playing at tempo is just a matter of time and practice. Keep at it, slow it down and repeat endlessly, then gradually speed it up. It may take days or weeks.

I think one can get carried away with the assigning finger X to string Y business. It is useful to some degree when learning, but then so is playing the way you can comfortably execute whatever it is that you're trying to play.

As for everyone rooting their pinky or other finger, I don't. Sam Chatmon didn't from what I can tell in all the footage I've seen. We have no evidence, but I suspect that if Charley Patton rooted anything it was only momentary, as his right hand was very active. Ditto Son House. Bo Carter is said to have played with four fingers sometimes, and wouldn't be planting anything then. I'm sure there are others. There can be some small advantages to planting a finger. Damping may be slightly simpler and controlled, but damping can be overdone (or underdone). Hand position is perhaps a little more steady. But I wouldn't knock yourself out over it if you've been playing the other way for years, because it really isn't everyone, no matter what you've heard.

Do get your index finger in shape. It's definitely going to hold you back otherwise. 

[Mr.OMuck]

Hey Take a look at Libba Cotton! She did EVERYTHING wrong, and produced magnificent results.

[lindy]

John Jackson once said that "There ain't no rules" to playing the country blues on guitar. Good enough for me.

You've probably noticed that when you pick a string with your index finger it sounds different than when you pick the same string with your middle finger. If that's not sufficient motivation to use one or the other, then just keep on keeping on with what you're doing, and have fun with it!

L

[lindy]

As for everyone rooting their pinky or other finger, I don't. Sam Chatmon didn't from what I can tell in all the footage I've seen. We have no evidence, but I suspect that if Charley Patton rooted anything it was only momentary, as his right hand was very active. Ditto Son House. Bo Carter is said to have played with four fingers sometimes, and wouldn't be planting anything then.

The strongest opinion I ever heard on this was from Paul Rishell, he's really adamant about not planting your pinky or ring finger. He's a damn fine guitar player, but there are just too many examples of others who do/did plant theirs.

[Norfolk Slim]

Grossman insists (or used to for some stuff at least) on anchoring.  Brozman says that Grossman should be shot for messing up so many guitar players with such a rule (possibly a stronger opinion still than Paul Rishell!)...

Seems to me that solidly and unmoveably anchoring deprives you of lots of other options.  But doing it when you choose and when it suits what your doing and helps you do it- well that can't be the end of the world.

I do occasionally anchor.  I find it helps with hand fatigue in some tunes, and makes a more ringing sound than my usual tone.  But I do it much much less than I used to.  Apart from anything else, I struggle to damp with the heel of my palm if I anchor.

[Parlor Picker]

My strangely-shaped hand means I am physically incapable of anchoring by placing my pinky on the guitar top (my little finger seems much shorter than the others). I used to anchor by placing the heel of my right hand on the bridge - and this can be useful if you want to damp the bass notes. Eventually, I developed enough to be able to play without anchoring at all.

I agree with the various comments above, that different styles suit different people. Rev. Gary Davis picked with just thumb and index finger and the "country" style of mixing flatpick and fingers has also been mentioned - Richard Thompson uses this method as well.

[Laura]

Thank you everyone for the excellent suggestions. (and this fantastic site which I am now addicted to!)

Lindy, you are absolutely right about the motivation - I've realised it's not sounding good so will definitely pay more attention to what my right hand is doing.

I sat down last night and spent a good few hours on a brand new song, simple left hand but slightly acrobatic right and forced myself to use my middle finger solely on the first string.  It's sounding pretty good so far and I've just kept picking up my guitar throughout the day, playing through this song and it's feeling more natural each time.

So thankfully it doesn't seem like it will be too difficult to unlearn my bad habits.  Unfortunately when I hear a song I love I want to be able to play it immediately and instead of learning it carefully I tend to rush through the basics so I never end up with a "polished" performance which I suppose has led to this sloppy picking style- another thing to work on.

Hybrid picking sounds very interesting and I admit I'd never heard about it before. I will look up some of the names mentioned though it would not ever be something I would try personally as I can't stand playing with a flat pick!

Eventually, I developed enough to be able to play without anchoring at all.

That's really interesting that you've had to learn not to do it.  I can imagine choosing whether or not to anchor could be advantageous.

Lastly, I am quite frankly outraged that anyone could even suggest shooting the wonderful Stefan Grossman! 

[banjochris]

Lastly, I am quite frankly outraged that anyone could even suggest shooting the wonderful Stefan Grossman! 

John Fahey wrote a song about it!

[Stuart]

I believe Craig Ventresco plays with a pick and fingers:

http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=6216.0

Don't put any artificial limitations on yourself--learn to play using all the various methods, but don't be bound to any of them. Insist on non-insistence. Where would Pete Townsend be if he always anchored his pinky? 

[Rivers]

I agree, contrarianism is totally valid when you're experimenting, don't believe everything you read. There are no rules. Some people have natural artistic tendencies and should follow their muse. Re. anchoring, with practice you can switch from anchoring to not anchoring at the drop of a hat, which I reckon is the best of both worlds.

Likewise, using fingerpicks, with practice you can play with them or without them, and choose to use them depending on the situation. Harder to switch mid song though.

The keyword is 'practice'.

[colm kill paul]

My question is : Not using my index finger on the 2nd string is going to hold me back, right?  I also don't "root" my pinky to the guitar body which I've noticed everyone do..Having tried it it feels completely unnatural and uncomfortable - is this another thing I'm going to have to train myself to do?

I thought it maybe useful to share my experience as a recent total beginner (i.e. beginner to the guitar) on this one. I'm still struggling with the basics so don't put any great weight on this post.

I've found that when I've made a big step forward in my playing it has usually started with realising I got to change and build up a knew skill. So it's really good news that you,'ve arrived at a place where you can see a potential skill gap.

Specifically on a technical question of how many fingers to pick my conclusion on this whole thing is that you can perform country blues with one, two, three or four fingers. Regional variation sees preferences historically in this genre. However, when you move outside this genre into other music styles you may need the ability to utilise at least three fingers. So it's a broader musical church so to speak for the three fingered guitarist. I started out in complete ignorance and thought it was simpler to give the job of playing each of the top three strings to a specific finger. This was logical ( at least in my tiny mind) but didn't factor in the anatomy of the hand. Apparently the middle and ring fingers share a tendon and so gaining independence and strength for the ring finger is not easy. So my plan assigned the first string which is very busy melodically to a handicapped digit! Brilliant (not)! Down the road I learnt that Mississippi John Hurt played with two fingers and it made perfect sense. He was avoiding the natural limitations of the hands anatomy. Unfortunately by the time I figured all this out I had practiced a lot using the three fingers. So I had a similar question to ask do I play with two as MJH did or stick with three? I decided to stick with the three until I accomplished some proficiency but I expect at some point I will add the two finger style to my tool box. The result of playing with three fingers is I've had to struggle to get the clarity, precision and authority on the melodic notes coming off the first string that is required. However, with time I'm getting there. The bonus has been as I've explored other types of guitar music the facility to utilise the ring finger has been a bonus.

Similarly I planted the little finger ("pinky"...that term always makes me smile) on the fret board and to be honest it has been a useful habit to date. "Planted" sounds locked but it's really more of a pivot point and is quite flexible. I found that in the beginning this gave my hand a reference point to orient the picking fingers relative to the strings. More recently I find it can be leveraged to add presence for a particular point it the melody line. It also balances nicely the dynamic thumb movement allowing my rhythm work to be more controlled. So I think it's a useful technique.

Overall I guess we are lucky to have via the internet a lot of knowledge and options which we can build on. I guess back in the day people played the style the learnt locally with innovators developing the style. As a beginner I find I need to pick my battles or I'll get too frustrated. Everything has it's season and change is a process so I pick up targets for improvement carefully but once I've locked onto an improvement opportunity I stick with it till hopefully I've mastered it.

Hope this is of interest. I thought a novice perspective may be useful in the mix. Colm

[Norfolk Slim]

It is of interest- I hadn't really thought about the anatomy point before.

Of course, the application of three fingers to the top three strings (and therefore the ring finger to the top e string) is absolutely "correct" classical technique and how I was taught as a child, so it always seemed normal and natural to me.  (I still think of the fingers as p, a, m, i per classical notation)

I find though, in playing blues, that I use the ringer finger independently less and less over time and its almost an ability Im starting to lose a bit.

I also noted recently, having been given to think about it in this thread, that whilst I claim not to generally "anchor" anymore, my right hand almost invariably sits damping the strings with the heel of the palm- so I actually am anchoring in a different manner.  It occasionally causes me issues playing some Blake stuff.