Topic: High water everywhere part 1 and 2 reversed

[rein]

Hi all. One of my favourite songs is Charlie Pattons masterpiece High Water Everywhere, but one thing has always puzzled me. As in other songs he accelerates which really brings extra drama to the song, but part II  starts real slow and it would make more sense that the song starts there. I also tried to track the places he names, and in part two he starts upstream in Arkansas, in Blytheville north of Memphis and  to Joiner and Marion,Arkansas. All these places are north of the Delta. Part two starts in Sumner on the Tallahatchie river and than moves to Greenville and Leland and than upstream to Rosedale and downstream to Vicksburg and hpoefully to jackson and the hills.
This is also the trajectory of the 1927,the first breaks were upstreams in Arkansas and later in the Delta, so for the narrative works better when listened to in that order.
On the other hand, sometimes I feel they are two separate works, because the viewpoints are slightly different and both sides resolve so beautifully. That it is song about the flooding in Arkansas and another one about  the flood in the delta. What I can t grasp is that there were writers who knew this song and still could state that Pattons songs were incoherent. This song or these songs are to me a masterpiece of storytelling and poetry within the blues form.
all best, Rein (oh, I tried to transcribe the lyrics, can I just add them to the ongoing topic with Patton lyrics ?And does anyone know if people in Arkansas had icesleds and what they were used for ?)

[Blues Vintage]

This might help, I don't know how accurate the transcriptions are, I'll check them out later.

Bob MacLeod
https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=1466.msg28211#msg28211

David Evans
https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=1466.msg28233#msg28233

[rein]

Thanks. I still think he describes two or three seperate incidents relating to the 1927 flood. As I was trying to find information on the flood https://web.archive.org/web/20131029204950/https://support.rms.com/publications/1927_MississippiFlood.pdf , I get the impression that since the fall of 1926 there was severe weather, with even tornadoes in the delta and very high water in the river. There were floods in Arkansas in February, and I believe that is what he sings about in Part 2. Blytheville and Joiner are northwest of Memphis, as is Marion(mentioned in Stedan Grossmans transcription). In part I he starts in Sumner on the Tallahatchie river, east of thte Mississippi. I couldn t find anything about the Tallahatchie river except for Mattie Delaney s song, but I can imagine the tributuaries like the Yazoo and Tallahatchie would also have trouble discharging.
21 April 1927 the dikes finally broke north of Greenville flooding large parts of the Delta, cutting of the road to Rosedale
So when I listen to the song in this order, to me  it is a quite chronological description of events that follows the river downstream from Blytheville to Vicksburg and Jackson

[Johnm]

Hi rein,
Perhaps the key to understanding the two takes is taking into account the "everywhere" in the title. As you point out, Charlie Patton doesn't confine himself to describing the effects of the flood on the Mississippi delta. He might have been able to do "High Water Everywhere" parts 3 and 4, or more, if the record company had been interested. I don't think it's necessary to think of the lyrics as a through line--he had a lot of ground to cover.
All best,
Johnm

[Stuart]

This song or these songs are to me a masterpiece of storytelling and poetry within the blues form.

Hi rein: In certain ways we're limited to looking at these songs through the lens of the limitations of the commercial recording technology of the time and the decisions of the A&R people who chose what was recorded and released. And, of course, we really know very little about Charley.

If I was making an argument, it would be one from ignorance, but I can imagine Charley at times in the role of a bard singing an epic poem with elements of rhyme prose inserted. It wouldn't necessarily be the stuff of juke joints or fish frys, but there would be contexts where it was a perfect fit. It was the limitations of the three minute 78 side that prevented some songs being recorded the way he sung them--in their entirety, at least.

Of course, there's no evidence for this, so it's merely a daydream on my part. However, sometimes when trying to explain and flesh out the world for which sufficient detail is lacking, that's all we have.

[rein]

Off course you are right. But what we have here is the product, and I think it is great and moving and the storytelling and imagery is great. Surely Charlie Patton was a professional artist long before blues songs came out on records. Some of his songs consist of loosely connected traditional stanzas but I really think he was very conscious about his songs. He recorded 16 issued sides on his very first day in the studio,https://www.wirz.de/music/patton.htm, and that was a lot, I think Tommy Johnson did only 4 (and 2non issued) I believe that means he had no trouble adapting his style to recording And maybe, but that is just guessing because I can t even imagine a world where there are no three minute songs, 78s arrived at the compromise ofa 10'' record spinning at 78rpm because 3 minutes is a good length for a song. Off course we will never now. But it struck me how coherent the chronology the topography and the storytelling works in this song especially in this order. And yet, each side is a great song by itself ! Some early writers on his music dismissed his songwriting as incoherent, but how can that be when you can write a song like this !

[Stuart]

Hi rein: Charley had a catalog of material and was well prepared to record when he went in for his session. I sincerely doubt he was surprised re: what was expected of him. And I agree re: the conscious creation of his songs. Sometimes so-called "floating verses" or commonplaces were used by Charley and many others--And even though they are dismissed by some critics, they still effectively function as shared ideas and evocative images that we can pretty much all immediately relate to. So they have their place.

As to the number of sides recorded at a session or on a day when compared to other musicians, I'd be careful before reading anything into that since there are other co-factors at play.

I have no problem with both parts of "High Water." It's just that I can imagine them being parts of a larger whole, like John said.

[dj]

...but part II  starts real slow and it would make more sense that the song starts there.

Remember that the length of any performance of a song was limited by the 3 minutes or so that would fit on a wax recording disk.  So the fact that one part of the song starts as a different speed than another part is really of no relevance.  For all we know, Patton may have stopped for lunch after recording Part I and so felt a little tired before recording Part II.  All we know for sure is that according to the sequence of master numbers, assigned at the time of recording of each song, part I was recorded before part II.

[Stuart]

(Edited to correct my previous error.) I mistakenly thought "High Water Everywhere" was recorded in Richmond, IN on June 14, 1929. However, some of the info I included here may be of interest, so it stays. Also, in his book John Fahey mentions information in the Gennett ledgers. Hopefully, this information, as well as the ledgers, is still extant.

The Starr - Gennett Recording Labs would have kept track of the recordings they made of Charley for Paramount. Somewhere the sequence of the recordings made on that day should be available. There's a Starr-Gennett Collection at IU and the Starr Gennett Foundation in Richmond, IN. Someone there might be able to help.

https://libraries.indiana.edu/starr-gennett

https://www.starrgennett.org/

I also ran across:

http://www.bixeibenhamburg.com/paramount-and-gennett.html

There appears to be much more out there on the web, but I only had time to browse a small selection.

[eric]

The matrix numbers are L-59-1 for part 1 and L-60-2 for part 2 according to DGR. C. October 1929

[jpeters609]

The matrix numbers are L-59-1 for part 1 and L-60-2 for part 2 according to DGR. C. October 1929

The matrix number for "Part 2" (L-60-2) not only indicates that it was recorded after "Part 1," but also that it was a second take. If only that first take might turn up some day! (Wishful thinking).

Also, these sides were recorded by Paramount in Grafton, Wisconsin, not at the Gennett studio in Richmond, Indiana. (I believe only Charley's first session was recorded in Richmond.)

[Stuart]

Thank you for the correction. Stefan Wirz lists Pts 1&2 of "High Water Everywhere" as being recorded in Richmond on June 14, 1929, so that's what I followed as Stefan is usually correct. I just pulled out the "Screamin' and Hollerin'" set and it gives October 1929 and Grafton as the date and place. However, John Fahey's book, which is included in the set, gives late November 1929 as the date in the discography in Appendix II. (I assume the date in the set corrects Fahey's earlier book.)

The "Discogs.com" page gives the date as, "ca. February, 1930 in Grafton, WI."

No wonder there's confusion.

Also, a paper by David Evans at Jeff Harris's program page:

https://sundayblues.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/High-Water.pdf

The discography in Fahey's book lists June 14, 1929 as Charley's only Richmond, IN recording session. Fourteen sides are listed.

[Rivers]

DG&R says Grafton, c.October 1929, both parts.

For the first and only Richmond session, 12 sides are listed, no High Water Everywhere.

Somebody must be right.   

[Stuart]

I'm confident October, 1929 is correct. (But I've been wrong before--See above post...)

Like Jeff--and the rest of you--I'd like to hear Take 1 of Pt 2.

[rein]

Thanks all for the replies ! Matrix numbers don t lie I guess. So part I was definetely recorded before part II. And it is quite possible that he composed a song about the floods in northern Arkansas before the flood even hit the delta in Mississippi,just as with Bessie Smiths Backwater Blues As I said,  I also feel the two parts may be distinct songs, with the differences in place and perspectives and in music as well,. I do have the idea that the speed of the song and the speeding up that Patton often did is a deliberate choice though, and here it really works with the narrative in the song. I am an admirer of  David Evans works, but as I was making a map for myself off all the places mentioned, It struck me that the songs give a chronological narrative of events, to me beyond the perspective off just that off a Mississippi every man.  To me it is a very much part off the narrative to flee westward from the flooding Tallahatchie river towards the Mississippi itself ,to end up between waters on all sides .Off course, we never know, except that it is a masterpiece ! Does anyone here know when the Tallahatchie flood, that is also featured in Mattie Delaneys song, occurred ?
Thanks, Rein

[Rivers]

Does anyone here know when the Tallahatchie flood, that is also featured in Mattie Delaneys song, occurred ?

I consulted John M. Barry's book, Rising Tide - The Great Mississippi Flood of 1927 and How it Changed America, which I highly recommend, it's an amazing book on many levels. But it does not have that specific information, so far as I could find.

But ... when the levee at Mounds Landing breeched on April 21st 1927, the resulting flood extended at least 50 miles to the east, some accounts say 69 miles. That is far enough to reach the Tallahatchie river. So one could reasonably assume it was on, or shortly after, the 21st April.

[eric]

I second River's recommendation. Excellent book.

[Johnm]

Speaking from a musical point of view, I'm so thankful that two takes were released, and that they differed so much with regard to tempo and energy. I feel much the same about "High Water Everywhere, Parts 1 and 2" as I do about Garfield Akers' and Joe Callicott's "Cottonfields, Parts 1 and 2". In both instances, I find Part 1 amazing, but Part 2 just magical and kind of miraculous. The beautiful thing about making music like that is that if it's not already in you, you can't buy the ability to do it--it really is a gift, helped along by a great deal of work and getting in touch with what you want to hear and how to make it manifest.