collapse

* Member Info

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
Croce: "Do you believe the Festival marked a comeback in your own career?" Hurt: "I certainly don't think it hurt," he answered laughing. "Of course my career has seen more comebacks than a Friday night fish fry. I've been around a long time, you know. My first record was for Okeh in 1928" - December 1963, young Villanova student Jim Croce asks a question about the recent Newport Folk Festival in an interview of Mississippi John Hurt for radio station WWVU, from I Got A Name - the Jim Croce Story by Ingrid Croce and Jimmy Rock (Da Capo 2012)

Author Topic: Miller's Breakdown  (Read 244453 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lignite

  • Member
  • Posts: 244
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1845 on: April 19, 2018, 04:21:08 PM »
Hey John,
I don't know much about Lemuel Turner either. I own both of his releases on 78 rpm.The other title is Way Down Yonder Blues and is essentially the same melody as Jake Bottle. The B sides of both releases are rather generic pieces; Tramp Waltz and Beautiful Eyes Of Virginia (also a waltz)and seem to receive little interest. I assume Lemuel Turner is a white musician but it sure would be interesting for someone to find some solid information about him.

Offline Lastfirstface

  • Member
  • Posts: 383
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1846 on: April 20, 2018, 05:53:56 AM »
Lemuel Turner was kind of a mystery but some info has been dug up recently. He recorded for Victor in Memphis in February of 1928. In the book "Kika Kila: How the Hawaiian Steel Guitar Changed the Sound of Modern Music" the author found a newspaper clipping from Hattiesburg, MS that references "Turner & McCoy." It says "[they] have a style all their own for playing guitars, that of using a 'jake' bottle to produce tones and sounds from their instruments that never before have been heard on local stages."

The book says the same paper had a short biography of Turner in a follow up article. It said he was born in McComb City, MS and that said he returned from being gassed in WWI and spent six years in a military hospital in San Francisco where he learned Hawaiian guitar technique. By all accounts it seems he was a white musician.

Offline Stuart

  • Member
  • Posts: 3177
  • "The Voice of Almiqui"
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1847 on: April 20, 2018, 11:14:58 AM »
You should contact John Troutman and ask him if he has scans of the articles mentioning Lemuel Turner. It's possible that he organized and archived the info he found while he was researching his book in a way that's easily accessible and he might be able to dig it out and send it to you. I've met John and he is a solid scholar, a musician and and impressed me as a good guy, so it's worth a try. Here's the text of Note 16 on page 298-299 of Kika Kila:

[Begin quote] 16. I did find one newspaper report from Hattiesburg, Mississippi, that describes an alternative technique to the ?Hawaiian style? of playing with a steel bar, but the article was published in 1927, well after Hawaiian guitarists had become a familiar sight in the South, and the technique is identified as originating from the labor of an individual who was convalescing in a veteran?s hospital in San Francisco. The Hattiesburg American promoted what it claimed is the first local public performance by a player using a bottle rather than a piece of steel as a slide: ?What is probably the most novel presentation act ever to be presented on local stages is ʻTurner & McCoy?. . . . [It has] proved a knockout in all the largest theatres in the country where it has played. ?Turner and McCoy? . . . have a style all their own for playing guitars, that of using a ?jake? bottle to produce tones and sounds from their instruments that never before have been heard on local stages. . . . McCoy is known in theatrical circles as the Hawaiian guitar specialist. He plays a large steel guitar.? ?Turner-McCoy Premier Show,? Hattiesburg American, April 14, 1927, 9. Turner is Lemuel Turner, identified as a white guitarist who recorded four ?steel-guitar solos? for Victor Records in Memphis in February 1928, including ?Jake Bottle Blues.? Russell, Country Music Records, 917. ?Jake? refers to a Jamaican Ginger Extract medicine with a high alcohol content; it was frequently consumed by poor and working-class southerners as an intoxicant. The next day?s edition of the Hattiesburg American provided a biographical sketch of Turner. It reported that he was born in McComb City, Mississippi, and during World War I enlisted in the U.S. Army?s Eighty-First Infantry Division. He recounted to the newspaper that after he was gassed in France, he returned to the United States and spent six years in a government hospital in San Francisco. It was there that he began to play guitar and developed this method of playing guitar with a bottle. ?King Guitar Player Here,? Hattiesburg American, April 15, 1927, 2. I have not located any further references to the Turner and McCoy group. Turner?s recordings are among the very earliest to feature the guitar presumably played with a bottle rather than a knife or metal bar. It is likely that guitarists Sylvester Weaver or Walter Beasley came to use the bottleneck around this time, too, as together they cut ?Bottleneck Blues? in November 1927. What is not clear is whether they were holding the bottlenecks in the same fashion as Hawaiian guitarists held their steel bars, or if they actually placed their finger inside the bottlenecks and held the instrument in the standard fashion. Thanks to Elijah Wald for pointing out to me that we must not assume that these recordings featured the latter technique over the Hawaiian technique. The significance of this coverage by a Hattiesburg newspaper of Lemuel Turner in 1927 is that Turner?s use of a bottle seems so new and novel, even in the context of the steel guitar played by McCoy. It suggests, at the very least, that the concept of the ?bottleneck slide? was only beginning to take root in Mississippi at this time. Of course, Turner could have lied about the origins, but if a competent and practiced bottleneck slide tradition was in place when Hawaiian guitarists arrived in the South twenty or more years earlier, it seems more likely than not that (a) we would find press coverage of the more talented practitioners, regardless of their skin color, who would presumably seek to profit from their novel ability and (b) the southern press would compare the steel method when it was introduced to a concurrent method of southern origin, rather than declare the degree to which the Hawaiian guitar sound was unique and new. [End Quote]


Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1848 on: April 20, 2018, 12:06:01 PM »
Thanks Lightnin', Pete and Stuart for the additional information on Lemuel Turner.  It occurs to me, Stuart, that the ostensible novelty of somebody playing slide with a bottle/bottleneck depends a great deal on the identity of the person writing the review for the Hattiesburg paper.  If this was a person who didn't frequent places where one might likely hear someone playing with a bottle or bottleneck for a slide, he/she might accept at face value a claim from Turner and McCoy that they were innovators in employing this technique, which in fact might already have been relatively common, if not in Hattiesburg, than in other locales.
All best,
Johnm 

Offline Stuart

  • Member
  • Posts: 3177
  • "The Voice of Almiqui"
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1849 on: April 20, 2018, 03:57:44 PM »
I agree, John. We really don't know a whole lot about the writer of the articles and what his previous experiences were with music played with a slide. Like you say, it's probably best to take the articles at face value for the additional information they provide about Lemuel Turner, but at the same time with a grain of salt given that we really don't have any way of corroborating the info, checking the reporter's background, etc. Proceed with both eyes open, and of course it's "new and novel"--but only if you haven't heard it before. My guess is that the article was written (in part?)  as a "promotion" for a local show, thus some liberties may have been taken to drum up interest and increase attendance.

As I said, John Troutman impressed me as a solid scholar and he did quite a bit of work going through the newspapers in Mississippi and elsewhere when he was researching his book. It would be interesting to know what he found that didn't make it into the book because it was too far afield of the book's main topic. As I mentioned, it might be worth an e-mail.

Offline harriet

  • Member
  • Posts: 596
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1850 on: April 20, 2018, 05:50:16 PM »
Just in response to Stuart's post - here's a jpg from a Black Ace video attached, you may have seen this video before, playing in a style with a liquor or medicine bottle - similar to one variety of the Jake bottle - I think this may be how it was held by Turner.  For the video search: YW7zxl3sdJc
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 05:16:40 AM by harriet »

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1851 on: April 27, 2018, 09:22:14 AM »
Hi all,
It has taken me a while to find another puzzler, but I have one now for those of you who are interested.  It is Tom Dickson's "Worry Blues".  Here it is:

 

The questions on "Worry Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Tom Dickson use to play the song?
   * In his first two verse accompaniments, Tom Dickson rocks between two bass notes, falling on beats one and three in the first two measures of the form.  Where are the bass notes located that he rocks between in verse one, and where are the bass notes located that he rocks between in verse two?
   * Where is the bass line located that Tom Dickson plays under the IV chord in his verse accompaniments?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers until 8:00 AM your time on Monday, April 30.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy Tom Dickson's "Worry Blues".
All best,
Johnm

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1852 on: May 01, 2018, 10:38:55 AM »
Hi all,
Any takers for the puzzler on Tom Dickson's "Worry Blues"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm

Offline Lastfirstface

  • Member
  • Posts: 383
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1853 on: May 01, 2018, 12:54:57 PM »
I whiffed pretty bad in my last couple answers, but here goes:
-E position capoed up
-In verse one he's holding the E chord and rocking between fretting the sixth string at the 4th fret and the sixth string at the 2nd fret. In verse two he fingers the same frets, but on the fifth string instead
-Under the IV chord he plays the open fifth string bass note followed by a plucked note at the 3rd fret followed by a hammer-on to the 4th fret

edited for typos
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 05:00:31 PM by Lastfirstface »

Offline Old Man Ned

  • Member
  • Posts: 387
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1854 on: May 02, 2018, 01:24:22 PM »
I'm hearing this in E standard too, capo at around the 4th fret.  I'm struggling with the bass notes though and keep changing my mind. 

My latest thoughts are for verse one, it's rocking between the 4th fret and 2nd fret of the 5th string and verse 2 it's open 4th and 2nd fret of the 5th string, but I'm really struggling to hear this and pin it down. I need to listen more  for what's going on under the IV chord.

Offline Prof Scratchy

  • Member
  • Posts: 1731
  • Howdy!
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1855 on: May 03, 2018, 08:55:28 AM »
 * What playing position/tuning did Tom Dickson use to play the song? - E capoed to fourth or fifth fret
   * In his first two verse accompaniments, Tom Dickson rocks between two bass notes, falling on beats one and three in the first two measures of the form.  Where are the bass notes located that he rocks between in verse one, and where are the bass notes located that he rocks between in verse two? - 5str 2fr to 6str 4fr in verse 1 and 5str 4fr to 5str 2fr in verse two
   * Where is the bass line located that Tom Dickson plays under the IV chord in his verse accompaniments? - 6str 0fr 5str0 5str 3fr 5str 4fr

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1856 on: May 07, 2018, 02:52:04 PM »
Hi all,
I'm guessing that everyone who intended to respond to the Tom Dickson "Worry Blues" puzzler has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.

For Tom Dickson's "Worry Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning
   * In the verse one accompaniment, in the first two bars, Tom Dickson rocks between the fourth fret of the sixth string on beat one and the second fret of the sixth string on beat three.  In the verse two accompaniment and all of the subsequent verses, in the same place in the form he rocks between the fourth fret of the fifth string on beat one and the second fret of the fifth string on beat three.
   *  In his verse accompaniments, under the IV chord, in both measures he hits the open fifth string on beat one, hits either the second or third fret of the fifth string on the + of beat two, and picks the fourth fret of the fifth string on beat three. 

Tom Dickson recorded only four titles, all with excellent guitar playing, two in E position, standard tuning and one each in D position, standard tuning and C position, standard tuning.  He seems always to be classified as Memphis musician, but if I recall correctly, none of the Memphis musicians who survived into the '60s and '70s could recall having met him or heard him play.  It seems a long shot that we will get any hard biographical information on him at this late date, but so much information has been turned up in recent years that you never know.

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzler and I hope people enjoyed the song.  I'll look for another one to post.
All best,
Johnm

Offline Thomas8

  • Member
  • Posts: 155
  • oooh well well.
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1857 on: May 14, 2018, 10:14:37 AM »
Nice overview of the four Dickson sides including lyrics.

http://www.earlyblues.com/WorryBlues.htm

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1858 on: May 14, 2018, 10:49:28 AM »
Hi Thomas,
Yes, and all four of the Tom Dickson titles have been discussed and transcribed in the Tom Dickson Lyrics thread here. 
All best,
Johnm

Offline Johnm

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13190
    • johnmillerguitar.com
Re: Miller's Breakdown
« Reply #1859 on: May 15, 2018, 09:14:04 AM »
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is Ranie Burnette's "Lonesome Moon Blues".  Here it is:



INTRO

Don't that moon look pretty, baby, shinin' down through the tree?
Don't that moon look pretty, baby, shinin' down through the tree?
I can see my baby, you know, she can't see me
(Guitar)
I can see my little woman, but, you know, she can't see me
(Guitar)
I see my baby, Lord, you know, she can't see me

Hey, babe, I don't know what to do
I say, hey, baby, I don't know what to do
Lord, she's gone, babe, I don't know what to do

Hey, baby, it's all on account of you
Whoa now, baby, baby, you know it's on account of you
You know, baby, baby, it's all on account of you

The questions on "Lonesome Moon Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Ranie Burnette use to play the song?
   * Where did Ranie Burnette fret the signature lick he plays from :07--:10?
   * True or false:  Ranie Burnette never frets a string lower in pitch than the third string in the course of his rendition.

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Thursday morning, May 17.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy "Lonesome Moon Blues".
All best,
Johnm
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 09:09:48 AM by Johnm »

 


anything
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal