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Country Blues => Country Blues Licks and Lessons => Topic started by: Johnm on May 15, 2014, 03:19:12 PM

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 15, 2014, 03:19:12 PM
Miller's Breakdown
What Is this Musician Doing? -An Ongoing Quiz.

PERUSE the indexes: http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg90978#msg90978 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg90978#msg90978)
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                         and: https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg111234#msg111234

Hi all,

I have a sort of different idea for a new thread here.  I'm in the practice of pretty much always saying what tuning or position a musician played a tune out of, and while that information can be really helpful in figuring out how to play a piece on a recording, my always supplying it doesn't exactly help those of you who would like to build your own skills in doing that.  So, I thought it might be interesting to have a thread in which a performance is posted and then specific questions are asked to the Weenie community at large about how the song is being played.  I would have two requests for how to make participation in the process work better for everybody:

   * Please don't use transcription software of any type in figuring out what is being done.  Try to do it just using your own ears and listening.  If you'd like to do it with an instrument in your hands or handy nearby where you can try out things on it, by all means, use your instrument to help you figure things out.
   * Please don't post any responses or suggested answers to the questions about how the song is being played before Monday, May 19th.  This will allow more folks to work on the song and see if they can figure out the answers to the questions before any responses to the questions are posted.

The song I'd like you all to listen to if you care to is one recorded by a musician named Andrew Dunham, from Detroit, in the late 1940s or early 1950s.  Professor Scratchy first posted this song on the "Country Blues-Related Tunes on YouTube" thread a couple of years ago.  Since first hearing it, the sound of "Sweet Lucy Woman" has really stuck with me.  I think it is an amazing sound and Andrew Dunham really had a Country sound, despite recording in an urban environment.  The two questions I have about the tune are:

   * What tuning and playing position did Andrew Dunham play "Sweet Lucy Woman" out of?, and
   * Where on the neck is the lick fingered in the intro from :05 to :06 to :07, that moves up from :05 to :06 and back down from :06 to :07?

That's it.  I hope you enjoy this and think it is a worthwhile endeavor, and please remember not to post any responses to the questions until Monday, so that a lot of folks can try to work out the answers.  Thanks!

Andrew Dunham -- Sweet Lucy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98_ZJO9i6CA#)

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on May 15, 2014, 04:51:03 PM
Excellent idea, John. One of the most frustrating things about trying to figure out playing positions is not knowing how to spot different tunings, so even though I play mostly in standard I look forward to following the discussions here, and it'll be worth trying to work out positions knowing there will be discussion after a few days of bent-mind syndrome.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 16, 2014, 01:42:52 AM
Great idea for a thread!

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Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 19, 2014, 05:32:55 AM
Right - it's Monday afternoon, so I'll venture a guess: DADGBE tuning a half step up. The second question is harder, but I'll say second string 9th fret and third string 10th fret. Am I close?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on May 19, 2014, 07:09:30 AM
A great thread! I certainly hope to improve my poor skills with open tunings with this.

Here's my theory: I suggest that the tuning is Spanish in A flat, and that the triplet chords are fingered something like X-X-X-0-2-5, and X-X-X-0-0-3. The flat 5th note on the 2nd string of the 1st chord is striking to my ear.

I seem to hear the E flat (the 5th) being the lowest note on the bass lick that follows, which makes me think of Spanish.

Of course, I could be completely wrong!  ;D

Looking forward to hear the verdict!  :)

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harvey on May 19, 2014, 12:08:47 PM
I really like the idea of this thread it forced me to focus on one song rather than a few half heartedly.

I don't think I got very far just ran out of time. I had Spanish like Pan however I thought that the top two strings were barred at the 3rd and 5th frets........then the kids inturupted.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on May 19, 2014, 01:27:23 PM
I'll put in another vote for Spanish up about a half step. Playing with some of the bass licks seemed to fit a fingering better with the 6th and 5th string intervals a fourth apart (D to G) as opposed to a fifth apart like Drop D (D to A).  As for the lick, I think the 1st string is at frets 3 and 5 but at this point in listening I'm not hearing how to spell the rest of the chord. Anyway, that's my guess at this point. 

Thanks,
             Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jrn on May 19, 2014, 01:42:21 PM
It sounded like spanish to me too.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on May 19, 2014, 02:41:46 PM
I only looked in to find any comments on the Hopkins JSP Box set and was sidetracked.
I will say open G capo 1st fret and for the lick slide up xxxx65 down to a barre xxxx33.



But I was not blessed with a WC ear......not even the standard issue.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on May 19, 2014, 06:23:13 PM
   * What tuning and playing position did Andrew Dunham play "Sweet Lucy Woman" out of?

To my ear, everybody here is half right! Andrew Dunham sounds to me like a roughed up Lil Son Jackson, and I think he's playing in half-spanish, tuned to about A-flat.

   * Where on the neck is the lick fingered in the intro from :05 to :06 to :07, that moves up from :05 to :06 and back down from :06 to :07?

That being said, simplest move to get that sound would be a little parallel motion on the first two strings: open 2nd string against the 1st fret, 1st string and the 2nd fret, 2nd string against the 3rd fret, 1st string.

Could easily be spanish, though...  the general "chordlessness" of the song makes it tricky.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 19, 2014, 10:30:44 PM
Hi all,
Thanks to everybody who participated and took an interest.  I should say that making the identification was trickier than I thought it was originally or intended it to be.  I was just hooked on that lick Andrew Dunham plays near the beginning of the song and keeps returning to.
It turns out that the position he played "Sweet Lucy Woman" out of was A position in standard tuning, tuned a half-step low, so it sounded in Ab, but you have to listen to almost the entire rendition to get enough information to make that determination with any degree of certainty.  Both Pan and Frank figured out the fingering for the signature lick spot on for the tunings they selected.  And Scott noted that the interval between the sixth and fifth strings was a fourth as it would be in Spanish, half-Spanish or G6 tuning and in standard tuning.  Frank's observation that the "chordlessness" of the song makes a positive ID tough captured it in a nutshell.

Andrew Dunham starts out playing with a rough touch, but basically clean, hitting just the strings he wants to hit, and he's never hitting more than two notes at once in the treble--no full chords, just little two note figures like the signature lick or single note runs.  As the rendition goes along, he starts to play his runs rougher and less precisely.  If you listen in the 1:22--1:23 area of the song, or around 2:02--2:06, or 2:52, he plays runs in which he hits the bVII note of the scale on the first string while free-handing, and brushes the open second and third strings while he's doing it.  In both Spanish and half-Spanish tunings, if you fret the bVII of the key on the first string and brush the second and third strings open, you end up with a I7 chord.  In Spanish, it would be fingered 0-0-3 on the first three strings and would be voiced R-3-bVII.  In half-Spanish, it would be fingered 0-0-1, and would similarly be voiced R-3-bVII.  In A, standard tuning, though, if you play the bVII note on the first string and brush the second and third strings open, you wind up with this fingering (same as Spanish) 0-0-3, but this voicing:  bVII-9-bVII.  And that's the sound Andrew Dunham plays at those times cited above--it barely sounds like a chord, more like a melody note played over semi-unrelated open strings, which is exactly what it is.  His signature lick ends up being fingered on the top two strings: 2-3 to 4-5 back to 2-3.  It's like playing the top of an A7 chord going to the top of a B7 chord and then going back to an A7 chord, but in an A blues!  That fourth fret of the second string is what gives it that eerie sound.  He starts most of his verses by going from 5-5 to 2-3 to 4-5 back to 2-3 in the treble.
I think one reason I love this song is that it proves you don't have to do something technically challenging to get a really arresting sound that catches your ear.  I'd venture to say that if you put your guitars in standard tuning a half-step low and start fooling around playing along with the cut out of A position, you'll have it pretty quickly.  This isn't to say that the tuning/position identification was an easy one to make, though, that's for sure.  You pretty much have to listen to the whole track to figure it out for sure, and that's rare.  And you could get the main aspects of the song's sound in Spanish, half-Spanish or A position, so there you go.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 20, 2014, 01:21:38 AM
Amazing! Off to try that now! Thanks for a great puzzle. Next one soon please!

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Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on May 20, 2014, 03:07:02 AM
Ha! The solution, as usual, was simple and elegant!
I should have known, that trying to figure out weird fingerings in an open tuning, is a clear sign that I'm on the wrong track!  :)

While I have the chance to pick your brains and learn, could you guys explain what is the difference between half-Spanish and the G6 tunings? I searched the forum and if I'm not mistaken, the half-Spanish in G would spell out D-G-D-G-B-E, which could also be seen as a G6 chord?

Thanks, and I too would like to see another puzzle when time permits!

Cheers

Pan

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on May 20, 2014, 03:54:51 AM
Thank you Johnm .
I too am stumped by half Spanish .
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 20, 2014, 06:24:31 AM
Hi guys,
Half-Spanish and G6 tuning are the same thing.  I think I usually just call it DGDGBE tuning.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on May 20, 2014, 06:48:56 AM
Thanks for the clarification John!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 20, 2014, 12:31:15 PM
Hi all,
Well, if folks enjoyed listening to and working on Andrew Dunham's "Sweet Lucy Woman", here's another one to try and work out aurally.  It is Jaydee Short's recording of "My Rare Dog", from the 1960s, recorded by Samuel Charters. 

https://youtu.be/z5ZvgZvOvyE

Oh, early this mornin', I heard my rare dog bark
Oh, early this mornin', I heard my rare dog bark
Well, my love has gone away, she drifted somewhere in the dark

Well, call your wife, know my baby's near around
Well, call your wife, know my baby near around
You can't hide from me, baby, 'cause I ain't gonna let you put me down

Come on home soon in the mornin', 'cause you stayed away all last night
Come home soon in the mornin', 'you stayed away all last night
I want to know from you, baby, you call that treatin' me right

Well, in the wee, wee hours, don't want to keep my company
Well, in the wee, wee hours, don't want to keep my company
Well, I've got the blues about my baby, I'm blue as any man can be

Hold my hand, I'm really in love with you
Hold my hand, I'm really in love with you
Well, you do things to me, baby, that I would never do to you

Well, I'm just settin' down wonderin', tryin' to drive away my blues
Well, I'm just settin' down wonderin', tryin' to drive away my blues
Well, I've got the blues 'bout my baby, and no one else but you

Well, this mornin' 'bout dawn, you come walkin' in
Well, this mornin' 'bout dawn, hooo, you come walkin' in
Well you been out playin' at love, with my old-time friend

SOLO

I'm gonna forgive you, baby, if you don't do that again
I'm gonna forgive you, baby, if you don't do that again
Well, you remember now, baby, I always have been your friend

The questions for "My Rare Dog" would be:
   * What playing position/tuning is Jaydee Short playing the song out of?, and
   * Where on the neck does he start his accompaniment for each verse?

Once again, if you bypass any transcription software, and just work from what you can hear and find by experimenting on your guitar, you'll build skills and be working on an equal footing with everybody else.  And please don't post any answers to the questions above until Thursday, May 22.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you have fun with it.  Boy, could Jaydee Short sing!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 22, 2014, 11:55:33 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for Jaydee Short's "My Rare Dog"?  What's he doing?
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 22, 2014, 12:25:36 PM
Is it Thursday already? Well, we have a quiz programmer here called QI. If anyone answers a question with the absolutely obvious answer (which is also wrong) a klaxon goes off and they are awarded minus 50 points. So, for my minus 50 points I'm going to say: regular tuning, key of D, and he starts each verse by bending a D shape at the fifth fret!

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Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on May 22, 2014, 12:36:19 PM
Phew! I'm not completely mad then :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harvey on May 22, 2014, 01:04:03 PM
I don't have much time during the week but had a quick go last night.

I had a partial D shape at the 5th fret 1st string 6th fret second string. Not sure what was going on in the base though, either standard or drop D

In the key of D standard I will take a guess at

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on May 22, 2014, 01:08:12 PM
I'll use my minus 50 points to back The Professor.  Sounds like a D shape up 3 frets for the first bars of the I chord then back down 3 frets to normal D position for bars 7 and 8.  I had a lot of trouble distinguishing the bass notes but what I did hear over the I chord I couldn't really place on the low strings 6 or 5 well - gotta say that I got sidetracked trying to make St Louis E with the 4th string raised to E work and the bass on I living on the 4th string but then my meds kicked in...

Thanks,
              Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 22, 2014, 01:12:52 PM
I'd gone for open G on the Andrew Dunham piece but forgot to post.  Agreeing with other folk with D and off around the 5th fret at start of the verse with a fair amount of distortion going on.  He sounds amplified or is he just really close up to the mic?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on May 22, 2014, 01:22:47 PM
Standard tuning D position for me as well. I think I'm hearing the standard D and A chords played in the open position. There are not many altered bass notes played, which was making things a little hard to hear at first. No 6th string notes played at all, as far as I can hear, so dropped D is out.
The verses start with a double stop played at the 5fh fret on the 1st string, and the 6th fret at the 2nd string, the 2nd string is slightly bent for a blue note. This is then followed by the open 5th and 4th strings.
The IV or G chord was also a little elusive, since the common bass notes are not heard, and the chord is played by only 4 top strings.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Laura on May 22, 2014, 02:40:50 PM
I only just saw this post now and am not going to have a go but I wanted to say what a great idea, John.  Thanks for starting the thread!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Norfolk Slim on May 22, 2014, 02:51:13 PM
Agree with Laura- fun idea.

But Ive not had time to give it any serious consideration.  Maybe next time!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on May 22, 2014, 04:20:19 PM
I'm not sure about the D-Position in Standard because of the way the single note fill sounds. Maybe he's in EAEGBE down one step, so the beginning of the verse lick would be a D-shape chord up at the 7th/8th fret, back to a D shaped E at frets 4/5/4. In this position I can make the single note fill sound closer to the recording, the second note being fretted instead of open which would be the case in D position std. tuning.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 22, 2014, 10:17:44 PM
Hi all,
Jaydee Short did play "My Rare Dog" out of D position in standard tuning, so well done for all of you who chose that as the playing position.  He starts every verse up at the fifth fret of the first string and bending the 6th fret of the second string.  I can't say with certainty as to whether he took the entire D shape up three frets, but I never hear him play the note at the fifth fret of the third string when he's up there, so I think he's just fretting the first two strings up there.
Some really good points were made about his bass disqualifying dropped-D tuning.  One thing I hadn't noticed before listening really carefully to the song was how unusually he plays the bass for his G chord.  For the most part, he just hits the open fourth string, as Pan noted, and it is a chord tone, but a few times, he also hits the open fifth string under the G chord.  He never hits either the G note on the sixth string or the B note at the second fret of the fifth once in the course of the song.  So everything that makes it sound like a G chord is played in the treble.
Way to listen, folks, and identify what you were hearing. Well done!  I remember hearing this song for the first time and feeling like Jaydee was sort of working Tommy McClennan's territory.

I"ll try to come up with another tune in the next couple of days.  Thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on May 23, 2014, 03:08:03 AM
I remember hearing this song for the first time and feeling like Jaydee was sort of working Tommy McClennan's territory.

Exactly!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 23, 2014, 10:17:18 AM
Hi all,
Here is Sammy Hill's "Needin' My Woman Blues", from 1929.  It is a guitar duet.  Here are the questions:
   *  Both guitarists, the one handling the treble and the one handling the bass, are playing out of what position/tuning?
   *  Right around 1:27, the guitarist handling the bass starts playing a little three-note lick over and over.  Where is he fretting that lick?  In the same verse, when it goes to the IV chord, where are the three notes that that guitarist moves to?  What is the guitarist who plays the treble playing over the IV chord?

Once again, please just use your ears and your instrument to answer the questions.  And if you could hold off posting your answers until Sunday, May 25, that will give folks a chance to listen to the song and work out their answers.  Thanks!

Sammy Hill Needin' My Woman Blues (1929) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj8YvrlTils#)

My baby's gone, three long weeks today
My baby's gone, three long weeks today
I'm sorry I wasn't at home, mama, here's what my babe had to say

When I went back, home vacant, stood in my back kitchen door
When I went back home, stood in my back kitchen door
I just wanted to see my mama, I wouldn't see my babe any more

Then I went out, mama, honey, I begin to pray and mourn
I went out, pretty mama, baby and I begin to pray and mourn
I wants the good Lord, Lord, send me my babe back home

Mmm-mmm, mmm-mmm
Mmm-mmm, mmm-mmm
Lord, Lord, send me my babe back home

Once I heard her knockin' on my back kitchen door
Once I heard her knockin' on my back kitchen door
It's knockin' like my sweet mama, boy, she's been here before

SOLO (Spoken: Lord, Lord!)

Babe, honey, what am I to do?
Baby, what am your daddy to do?
Don't you want your sweet man, mama, honey, lie down and die for you?

But I feel so sad, baby, honey, and I'm lonesome, too
Baby, I feel so sad, mama, Lord, I was lonesome, too
Ain't nothin' in this world, boys, Lord, for your black man to do

EDITED TO ADD, 6/21:  The second guitarist on this track and deliverer of the spoken "Lord, Lord!" coming out of the solo is Keno Pipes, courtesy of Eric Hubbard.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on May 25, 2014, 09:30:40 AM
My take:
Both guitars playing out of standard tuning, 1st position G, although guitars are almost a half step flat.

Backup player is fretting the lick @ 1:27 on 5th string, 1st fret, 2nd fret, and open 4th string.
Then, when it moves to the 4 chord, he plays 5th string 3rd fret, 4th string 2nd fret, and open 3rd string,
then moves to 5th string 4th fret to catch a C#, still playing 4th string 2nd fret and open 3rd.

Treble guitarist is playing over the 4 chord: tremelo on 1st string, 3rd fret.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on May 25, 2014, 10:06:24 AM
Hi all.

I agree with davek, except I was thinking the bass lick is the same pattern for the IV chord, but a perfect 4th up; so the fingering is the same,  1 -2- 0, but the strings played are the 4th and 3rd strings.

I could be wrong, though, it's a little tough to hear.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 25, 2014, 10:22:54 AM
Yes, Dave, agree about the tuning and the licks - but here's another possibility for the bass lick: the notes in regular tuning would be D, Bb, B I think. Maybe he's getting those at  5th string 5th fret, 6th string frets 6 and 7? For the treble bit, I was hearing a tremolo of open 1st string and second string fret 5 played together. But then my hearing aid lives in the kitchen drawer!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on May 25, 2014, 03:35:35 PM
Pan, I tried the same lick up a fourth. That seemed the obvious choice, but it doesn't work when moving to the C# I felt. And I definitely hear that C#.


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Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on May 26, 2014, 03:32:47 AM
I agree about G position in standard tuning for the lead guitar. The second guitar is most probably also in standard tuning although it could be open G as well as I mainly hear the open 4th, 3rd and 2nd strings in the rare instances when it plays chords.

I agree with Pan and davek about the bass lick being played on the (fretted) fifth and (open) fourth string (1-2-0 in Standard or 3-4-0 in open G). I hear a C# frequently in this tune in bar 6, but not in the chorus that starts at 1:27. I guess I hear the bass over the IV chord as 1-2-0 in the bar 5 and 0-1-0 in bar 6 on the (fretted) fourth and (open) third string. The lead guitar tremoloes on the 2nd string, 5th fret and open 1st through both bars.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on May 26, 2014, 10:18:09 AM
I hear a C# frequently in this tune in bar 6, but not in the chorus that starts at 1:27. I guess I hear the bass over the IV chord as 1-2-0 in the bar 5 and 0-1-0 in bar 6 on the (fretted) fourth and (open) third string. The lead guitar tremoloes on the 2nd string, 5th fret and open 1st through both bars.
I agree with you now on the bass guitar. I listened to the second break too much, where there is a C# played.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 26, 2014, 10:28:34 AM
Hi all,
Sorry to be a little slow getting back to this.  I'm definitely hearing both guitars working out of G position in standard tuning, as Dave identified it in the first post.  If you listen to what the guitarist playing the bass lines plays under most of the verses it is all stuff that is right under the hand in standard tuning, but that in some instances would be awkward and non-idiomatic in Spanish (in particular the chromatic bass line moving from C to C#, which in Spanish would involve going from the fifth to the sixth fret of the fifth string).

In the verse beginning around 1:27, I hear the guitarist doing the bass part moving from the first fret of the A string to the second fret of the A string to the open D string over the I chord.  When it goes to the IV chord, I never hear it going to the C# in the bass in the sixth bar that it does in the second and fourth verses.  I just hear, as did Pan, the movement of the same bass figure one string towards the treble, going from the first fret of the D string to the second fret of the D string followed by the open G string.  The guitarist handling the bass returns to the earlier figure when the progression goes back to the I chord in the seventh bar.

Over the IV chord, I hear the treble part guitarist tremoloing a double stop of the fifth fret of the B string and the third fret of the high E string, just as Prof. Scratchy and mr mando had it.

I'm going to review what the bass part does over the IV chord again and will edit this post if I hear anything differently.

It seems to me everybody was very much in the same ball park on "Needin' My Woman Blues", and would be able to re-construct both parts, if you wished, to play with a friend without very much trouble.  And that's pretty cool!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 27, 2014, 01:49:16 PM
Hi all,
I've got another tune for anyone who is interested.  I just found it on YouTube, and know nothing about the artist who recorded it except that he was recorded for the Library of Congress.  He's identified as Little Brother and the song is "Blues (Up and Down Buildin' the KC Line)".  Despite what the attached video suggests, this Little Brother is not the Willie Lane who recorded "Howling' Wolf Blues".   Here is the track:

https://youtu.be/Dzujf-ZsUvY

Ever been down Mobile & KC line?
Ever been down Mobile & KC line?
Sunny man, stole my gal of mine

Oh, it's you light-weight skinners, you better learn to skin
Mmm-mm-mm-mm, you better learn to skin
'Cause Mr. Bud Russell, I tell you, he wants a thousand men

Oh, my mama she called me, I'm gonna answer, "Ma'am"
Mmm-mm-mm-mm, I'm gonna answer, "Ma-am"
Lord, and get down to rollin', for this big-hat man

She's got nine gold teeth, long black curly hair
Mmm-mm-mm-mm, long black curly hair
Lord, if you get on the Santa Fe, find your baby there

I been prayin', "Our Father, Lord, thy Kingdom come"
Mmm-mm-mm-mm, "Lord, thy Kingdom come"
Lord, I been prayin', "Our Father, let your will be done."

One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight nine
Mmm-mm-mm-mm, five, six, seven, eight, nine
I'm gonna count these blues, she's got on her mind

'Cause my baby done caught Rock Island train and gone
Mmm-mm-mm-mm, Rock Island train and gone
I don't mind her leavin' me, buddy, but she stays so doggone long

Your job, Mr. Phelps, should you choose to accept it, is to:
   * Identify the tuning/position he is playing the song out of and the key in which it is sounding;
   * Describe how he is phrasing the first line of each of his verses--what is his length there?
   * Tell where he is fretting the fill he plays after his IV chord.  He first plays it at about the :20 mark

Please don't feel like you have to be able to answer all three questions to participate.  Participate to whatever extent you wish.  No transcription software please, and please hold off on posting any answers until Friday, May 30.  If you've been participating regularly in these, it might be nice to hold off posting for a little bit to give some first-timers a chance to get their licks in.  Have fun with it.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 30, 2014, 08:56:17 AM
Here's my stab at this.  Only managed to spend the time it takes to cook my pizza (10-12mins 200C) but here goes:
Standard tuning, playing in A and going between the major and minor chord up at the ninth fret.  Similar to Blind Lemon's Matchbox blues, I think (all my records are in box's at the minute as I'm between house moves, so can't be sure but I've heard something similar to this before).  The wee lick around the 20 sec mark is played out of a sort of Dmin 11th going into a A? playing around with the 2nd string 3rd fret, open first & 3rd fret first then into the A (2nd string 2nd fret, 3rd string 2nd fret).  Sorry, this probably isn't explained too well and may not make much sense.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on May 30, 2014, 11:01:50 AM
Once again, didn't really have time to work on this, and without the ability to stop and start and loop easily, and yes, my old ears need a little slow down, it's just too frustrating. But I'd say his big brother might have been Clifford Gibson.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 30, 2014, 01:12:13 PM
Hi all,
Anyone else want to give the song a shot?  Throwing it wide open, come one come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 30, 2014, 01:20:13 PM
I'm with Old Man Ned!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on May 30, 2014, 02:43:04 PM
I agree, standard tuning, A position, is my bet. The phrasing on the first line of the verses is short, 3 1/2 bars, to a nice effect IMO. That riff after the IV chord is played on the top 3 strings. 3rd fret 2nd string (bent), open 1st string, 3rd fret 1st string, open 1st string, 3rd fret then 2nd fret 2nd string, 2nd fret 3rd string.

Cool tune I had forgotten about completely.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on May 30, 2014, 07:45:18 PM
Well, I tried the EAEGBE tuning that I hinted at above, capo 5, which doesn't change the D - Dm shapes at all and the lick turns out to be a nifty bend at the 2nd fret 3rd string (plain, of course), open 2nd, 3rd fret 2nd, 2nd fret 3rd string pull-off to open, open 4th string. I didn't really check anything to rule out Standard, capo 5, but like I said, sounds so much like Gibson...

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on May 30, 2014, 08:21:09 PM
I would also add that this really sounds like it is played with a non-opposing right hand, as Gordon (Joe Paul) demonstrates so well on his take on Gibson's Drayman Blues on the Back Porch. The non-opposing style lends itself nicely to the slightly swung feel that Gibson and many other players achieved. According to B&GR, Gibson recorded in '29 and '31, and Little Brother was recorded in '34, in the State Penn in Huntsville Texas, a ways, but not that far from St. Louis, where Gibson lived. Seems to me like there somehow must have been a connection.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 30, 2014, 10:51:50 PM
Hi all,
Thanks to all who participated.  I really like this song and Little Brother's performance--it's a shame that it concludes with him still singing and playing.
Everybody got the key at which the piece sounds correct, it is sounding in A.  He played it out of E position in standard tuning, capoed up to sound at A; more on that in a little bit.  Uncle bud figured out the length of the first vocal phrase perfectly.  Little Brother phrased it like this, assuming four beats per bar unless otherwise indicated:

|    I    |  Idim7   |    I + 2 beats  |

So it is that for the first phrase only, Little Brother's instrumental response is six beats long rather than 8 beats, or two full measures of four beats each, which is the way he concludes the second and third vocal phrases.
The fill that he plays following the IV chord in the seventh bar of the form starts on beat two of that measure and works as follows:
       1    +    2       +        3       +           4 (triplet)     
    |             3rd   open    3rd    open      2nd       open    2nd   |
                 fret,    2nd    fret     2nd       fret        3rd      fret
                  3rd  string    2nd   string     3rd       string    4th
               string            string              string                 string
              (little bend)                         

The only thing that makes a positive ID of the playing position as being E in standard tuning as opposed to EAEGBE tuning is the sound of his V chord in several places in the course of the song.  At the :03 point in his rendition, you can hear Little Brother drag his thumb from the root of the V chord, fretted at the second fret of his fifth string, to a minor third of that root, played on the open fourth string.  He does the same thing at :23--:24 and at the end of his rendition.  The fact that he hits that minor third above the root of the V chord eliminates the possibility of the tuning being EAEGBE, because no minor third above the root of the V chord can be articulated that way in that tuning.  In E position in standard tuning, it's a relatively common move which you can make just by fingering a Bm7 chord, X-2-0-2-0 and doing the thumb roll from the fifth to the fourth string.  Geeshie Wiley used the same Bm7 chord in "Last Kind Words Blues".
A couple of other neat touches Little Brother utilizes during the course of his rendition:
   * On the + of the sixth beat of that long fill measure at the end of the first vocal phrase, he does an ascending slide on his sixth string, probably fretting it with his thumb and ending up hitting the open fifth string on the downbeat of the second vocal phrase.  He really nails the timing on it, and lands it so beautifully.
   * In the first two bars of his first vocal phrase he fingers his I chord in the first bar just like a D chord moved up two frets, relative to his capo placement, 4-5-4 on the top three strings.  For his I dim7 chord in the second bar he uses a really pretty and unusual voicing, 3-5-3 on the top three strings.  He then returns to his I chord and walks it down two frets before resolving to his IV chord.

Everything in the song with the exception of the drag-through move into the Bm7 chord could be played in EAEGBE tuning where Waxwing had it, and in fact everything apart from that move would live in the same place as it does in E position, standard tuning (with the exception of the fourth string).

I really think Little Brother's playing on this song is exceptionally strong, inventive and well-played.  It's good to be reminded some times that there were really terrific players who never ended up recording commercially, but who were just as strong a musician or stronger than lots of people who did record.

Thanks for participating, folks, and I hope this is fun and interesting for you all. 

All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 31, 2014, 04:15:09 AM
Well, that was a tricky one! These are great learning tools and much fun! Next please....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on May 31, 2014, 08:37:39 AM
Yes, a good one. Lesson learned: take yer time!  :D

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 31, 2014, 01:05:46 PM
Yes, definitely lesson learned.  I'll put something in the oven that takes longer to cook next time ;) Would just like to say though that I'm learning so much from this.  Ranging from: I can't expect to get it spot on first time, to my ears aren't as rubbish as I thought they were.  Much appreciate the posts John.  Thanks.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on May 31, 2014, 01:51:33 PM
Excellent choices for study!
I too, would have thought of A-position in standard tuning! The absence of the low E, or in fact, any note below the root A, should have been a clear warning sign, even if I didn't catch the voicing on the V chord.
I strongly recommend these puzzles for everyone who wishes to improve on his or her transcribing skills.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 01, 2014, 04:52:43 PM
Hi all,
I'm glad that those of you who've been participating in the thread have been enjoying it.  I've got another tune picked out.  It is Otto Virgial's "Seven Year Itch".  Please identify as many of the following as you care to:
   *The playing position/tuning Virgial used for "Seven Year Itch" and the key in which it sounds;
   *Where his signature lick that he keeps returning to in the third bar is fretted.  Choose the one that he plays most often; and
   *What commonly played chord for the position he's playing in is notable for Virgial's not playing it in the course of "Seven Year Itch"?.

Here is the song:

Otto Virgial - Seven year itch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZwOIEUOWIE#ws)

I woke up this mornin', clock was striking four
I woke up this mornin', clock was striking four
I was itchin' so bad, had to pack my things and go

I run and said, "Hear this, babe, I'm goin' cross-town to crash."
Said, "Hear this, babe, I'm goin' cross-town to crash.
Now, if I don't quit itchin, babe, I won't be back."

I'm gwine up on the mountain, I'm gonna root just like a hog
Gwine up on the mountain, root just like a hog
I'm gonna drink muddy water, sleep in a hollow log

Mmm-mm-mm-hmm,
Mmm-mm-mm-hmm
I'm gonna drink muddy water, sleep in a hollow log

SOLO

I'm goin' to the river, sits right on the ground
I'm goin' to the river, sits right on the ground
If I start itchin' too bad, jump overboard and drown

Once again, no transcription software, please, and please don't post any responses until Tuesday, June 3.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on June 03, 2014, 02:42:42 AM
OK. I'll have a go. It sounds in B and is played out of long A position at the 4th fret in standard. Probably capoed at 2? (I don't here the low E string)
The signature lick is in that long A played on the 1st and 2nd strings at the 7th fret, and the 2nd and 3rd at the A position.
He doesn't play an E position chord

edited to correct string numbers  :P
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on June 03, 2014, 02:50:34 AM
Thanks for reminding me of this tune. I listened to the "Worried All The Time" LP on Whoopee 104 a lot some years ago and this is one of two Otto Virgial tracks on that LP.

Again, I've got no guitar at Hand, but from listeneing I would guess as follows:
*Standard Tuning /A positon, capoed up a couple of frets, can't tell how many without a guitar, so don't know key.
*signature lick comes out of a long A: 5-5-4-0 on the first string , 5(b)-2 on the 3rd string (relative to capo position)
*There's only A(7) and D7 (fingered 2-0-0-2-1-x low to high, the second string open for melody notes) chords played, no E7 common to this Position in A.

So obviously, besides  "one-chord-blues" and "three-chord-blues", there are also "two-chord-blues" in existence!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on June 03, 2014, 02:55:47 AM
Oops, Gumbo posted, while I was typing. I hear thumb rolls from the low E (6th) into the 5th (A) strings. Gumbo, I think you might have the string numbering upside down.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on June 03, 2014, 03:05:48 AM
Oops, Gumbo posted, while I was typing. I hear thumb rolls from the low E (6th) into the 5th (A) strings. Gumbo, I think you might have the string numbering upside down.
That is quite likely  - the numbering always confused me ! :)

PS I edited my first post - thanks Mr Mando :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on June 03, 2014, 08:49:38 AM
I've got it quite different. But I never really tried to replicate this in standard tuning.

Key of B approximately - it is a sharp B or a very flat C.
Open G tuning, or open A tuning (G tuned up a step) capoed up.
I thought the lick John was referring to was over the 4 chord, so:
The lick over the 4 chord is a hammer on the open 6th string: hammer to 2nd fret, then hammer to 3rd fret.
Then the higher part of the lick is on the 3rd string: open, second fret, open, third fret.
Each is individually picked.

I'm not hearing a 5 chord.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 03, 2014, 10:20:36 AM
I'm going to go for A capoed at the second fret, no E7 chord, and the lick being something like (String/Fret) 2/7; 1/5; 1/7; 1/6; 2/7; 3/7; 3/5 - with a slight string bend on the 3/7.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on June 03, 2014, 11:07:15 AM
Totally guessing, but to me it seems to fit nicely in G capo 4. The 3rd measure lick I'm hearing most is the one that starts low and goes something like 3rd str. 3rd fret (bent), 2nd str. 3rd fret, 1st str. 3rd fret (accomplished neatly by bending then laying the finger down in a mini barre), 1st str. 1st fret, 2nd str. 3rd fret, 3rd str. 3rd fret (bent), 3rd str. open. I can't really hear the bass licks at speed but it kinda sounds like he is rolling hammer-ons up from the E to the G but then thumbing from the G to the C in the IV chord?? I don't know. Agree, no V chord.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on June 03, 2014, 11:50:28 AM
I agree with the folks who've said A position and no E chord; I haven't checked the pitch. It sounds to me like his D7 chord lick starts with a thumb roll from the sixth string to the fifth while he's playing a quick slide from open to the 2nd fret of the sixth string and then hitting the open fifth, then the rest is just based around an open D7 chord with no F# on the top.

Whole thing sounds like Garflield Akers!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 03, 2014, 12:50:18 PM
Yeah, Garfield Akers...it had been bugging me who this sounded like.  I too am going for playing out of the A position capo at the 2nd fret.  Also looking for the E7 chord but the more I listen the more it's not there.  Not sure about the signature lick, could be played out of a long A or an A at the 5th fret, can't decide........I find myself over listening after a while and hearing all sorts!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on June 03, 2014, 02:08:46 PM
I think that when in doubt about positions and tunings, going with the easiest, least stretchy, and most open strings is probably what most original country blues players were doing.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Norfolk Slim on June 03, 2014, 02:19:07 PM
Sounds and feels like a long A shape capoed at the 3rd fret to me.  Which makes it sound in C (assuming my guitar is in tune!) Never goes to the E chord.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on June 03, 2014, 04:15:50 PM
Now that I tried to play along, I have to revise my previous statement. I now think that it's in half spanish (D-G-D-G-B-E) tuning capoed at the 4th fret. No V chord, and the IV chord is only hinted at: quick hammer on from open 6th to 2nd fret/6th string, then open 5th droning away under neath the boogie line on the 3rd string (open, second fret, open, 3rd fret, open, 2nd fret). The signature lick over the I chord starts with a thumb roll from open 6th to open 5th string, then moves to the first string 3rd fret, 1st fret and open, then bent note on 3/3 and open 3rd string.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on June 03, 2014, 04:28:17 PM
I don't have much to add, others have pretty much said what I believe I'm hearing; that is A-position, capoed to sound at around B.
The signature lick could be played up from the 5th position, I believe, but since the "long A" thing is very much happening, I assume the lick is also played out of the 2nd position as well.
And no V chord, although the melody occasionally goes down to the V note, on the B part of the AAB blues form, while the accompaniment just repeats the IV - I chord. changes heard before.
Nevertheless, a great tune, whether I'm right or wrong!  :)

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on June 03, 2014, 06:33:31 PM
It seems like there was some confusion over what Johnm meant by "Where his signature lick that he keeps returning to in the third bar is fretted.  Choose the one that he plays most often;" To me it sounded like, at least in the sung verses, the first line was sung over two bars and there was a lick that followed quickly in the 3rd bar that didn't appear anywhere else in the form. Those occurred at 0:22*, 0:42*, 1:03, 1:26, 2:03*, 2:34* and 2:56. Those with an * sound pretty similar and the one at 1:03 is pretty close. The other two, one the hummed verse and the other the final verse, he doesn't play the lick at all. Is this the one you meant, Johnm, or was it the decending lick that he plays much more frequently but never in the 3rd bar?

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 03, 2014, 11:45:21 PM
Hi all,
Thanks to you all for participating.  It's great to see so many responses.  Otto Virgial did play "Seven Year Itch" out of A position in standard tuning, sounding in the neighborhood of B to C.  It's probably worth pointing out that in terms of identifying the playing position/tuning that a song is played out of, the pitch at which the piece ends up sounding is not usually that much of a help in determining the playing position.
It was good to see everybody noting that Otto Virgial never plays a V chord in his rendition.  This sort of "V chord avoidance" is not as rare as you might think.  It's one of the things that makes him sound as much like Garfield Akers as he does, since Akers avoided the V chord, too.  Other players who are notable for avoiding the V chord include Dr. Ross, Sam Collins on his slide material, and Rev. Pearly Brown.
I'm sorry that the way I described the lick I wanted the fretting for was so imprecise and open to interpretation.  I should have related it to specific times in the rendition.  In any event, the lick I was thinking of occurs most often, I realized, in the third bar of the second and third phrases, not the first phrase, and is a descending phrase.  The lick I'm thinking of happens at :18, :30, :36, :50, :58, 1:12 and many other times in the course of the rendition.  It happens in the first bar back in the I chord after Virgial returns from the IV chord.  It is fretted at, and sits relative to the pulse like so:

|        1             +               2 (triplet)                       3               +              4              +              |
                     fifth            fifth      third    second     fifth          second       
                     fret             fret       fret        fret       fret            fret
                     first            first       first       first       third          third
                    string         string     string    string     string        string
                                                                             (bent)

The keys to differentiating the sound in A position in standard tuning as it occurs in this song versus Spanish, G6 tuning or G position in standard tuning are as follows:
   *  G position in standard tuning would not work because as a number of you noted, Virgial does a hammer on the sixth string into the third of the IV chord, then rolls his thumb up to the fifth string, where he hits the root of the I chord for the song.  In G position in standard tuning, the open sixth string is the third of the IV chord so a hammer into that pitch is not available. 
   *  If you look at what notes Virgial hits in the treble over the IV7 chord, they are located as follows: second fret of the third string, open second string and first fret of the second string, while the thumb is wrapped, fretting the second fret of the sixth string and the first string is open.  It's the same position that Robert Johnson used for all of his tunes played out of A position like, "Me and the Devil", "Kind Hearted Woman", "Little Queen of Spades" and the rest.  If you analyze what those notes in the treble are relative to the IV7 chord they happen over, D7, the second fret of the third string is the fifth of the D7, the open second string is the sixth of D7 and the first fret of the second string is the seventh of the D7 chord.  Because the notes are phrased on two different strings, you can flow from the note on the third string into the notes on the second string, continuing to let the note on the third string sustain as you play the notes on the second string.  That same sound of the line flowing from the fifth of the IV7 chord up to its sixth and then its seventh is not available in the same way in either Spanish tuning or G6 tuning because in both of those tunings, all three notes would be played on the same string, with each note in the ascending line effectively erasing the note that preceded it as it is played.  Those three notes, the fifth, sixth and seventh of the IV7 chord would be found at the open third string, the second fret of the third string and the third fret of the third string in both Spanish and G6 tuning.  So it is, that in those two positions it would be impossible to have the first note of the ascending line sustain against the next two, and the line would have a choppier sound, with all three notes played on the same string.
What you end up with, then, is a situation where the line has much more flow, sustain and ease of execution in A position standard tuning than it would have in Spanish or G6 tuning.  It also sits so easily and gratefully for the left hand in that little thumb-wrapped D7 with the open first string--it's a real rocking chair kind of move, the position just gives it to you. 
In the treble in his long A chord, 0-0-2-2-2-5, Otto Virgial may have been adopting a strategy of assigning a finger to a fret in the left hand, across the neck, so that his little finger fretted the fifth fret of the first three strings, his index fretted everything at the second fret on the top four strings, and probably his second finger fretted the third fret of the first string, though some folks prefer to use the third finger there.  Assigning a finger to a fret this way makes for a very quiet left hand, practically still.  Without having seen Virgial play the song, though, it can't be said for sure how he fingered  the long A phrases.

I hope my descriptions above are clear.  I've been enjoying finding these songs and listening to them and hearing people's responses.  At various different times in figuring out this music I've had to remember that the players were not trying to camouflage the sound of the playing position/tuning they were working in--rather they were going for the very heart of the sound of whatever position they were working in, looking for the stuff that sounded the best and was the easiest to play, the stuff that the position "gives" you.  Things that sounded good and were easy enough to play dependably while singing at the same time were what everyone was looking for.

All best,
Johnm     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 06, 2014, 12:16:19 PM
Hi all,
I've got another performance to work out, if anyone is interested.  It is Eddie Kirkland's "Going To the River, See Can I Look Across".  The questions would be:
   * What tuning/position is he playing the song out of?
   * Where is he fretting his V7 chord at 1:38 and his IV7 chord at 1:41?
   * Where is he fretting the voicing he is playing for his I chord at 1:50--1:56?
Here is the song:

Eddie Kirkland - Going To The River, See Can I Look Across (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TithLjaJ2pE#ws)

I'm goin' down to the river, and I'm gonna look across
I'm goin' down to the river, Lord, and see, can I look across
Oh, can I see the end of my trouble, Lord, I b'lieve my luck is lost

I woke up early this mornin', 'bout the break of day
I looked down in my bed where my baby used to lay
I'm goin' down to the river, Lord, to see, can I look across
Oh, I know my luck is lost, baby, I know my luck is lost

SOLO

Oh, baby, do you ever think of me?
Oh, baby, do you ever think of me?
Oh, when you lovin' your other man, do the feelin' come across me?

SOLO

All my friends look at me and tell me what a fool I am
All my friend look at me and tell me what a friend, a fool I am
All my love has been for you, oh baby, I just don't know what I'm gonna do

SOLO

I'm goin' down to the river, oh Lord, and see, can I look across
I'm goin' down to the river, oh Lord, and see, can I look across
I'm tryin' to find my luck, Lord, I know my luck is lost

OUTRO

Once again, please don't use transcription software, just your ears and your guitars, to answer the questions and please don't post any answers prior to Sunday, June 8.  And I promise not to be too gabby when I post the answers.  I hope you have fun with it, and answer as much or as little as you wish.
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on June 06, 2014, 03:47:05 PM
I, for one, would hope that you don't succumb to the "anything but a sound byte is to(o) much" mentality that is prevalent on the web and continue posting your highly informative and inspiring posts, Johnm. Otherwise this thread will lose much of it's educational value, I'm afraid. I've clearly proven that I don't have the chops to compete, if that is all that is intended, but am at least encouraged when shown why I am in error.

Thanks for explaining.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 07, 2014, 09:44:29 AM
Thanks for the feedback, waxwing.  It's helpful, and I appreciate it.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 08, 2014, 02:37:26 PM
For the Eddie Kirkland  one I'm going to say (erroneously) DGDGBE tuning a half step up, with the IV chord being a regular tuning C shape, the V chord being that shape moved up two frets , and the chord at 1.50 being third fret strings one and two. Klaxon denotes abject failure...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on June 08, 2014, 03:14:06 PM
Again, I can't hear much of the bass except the dead thumb on the tonic, which I took to be the 5th string, leading me to think he is in standard tuned down ? step and playing in A giving the same Ab pitch as Scratchy suggests. I don't ever really hear anything on the 6th string. I agree about the C7 form chords, but in A that would put the V reaching up to the E on the 7th fret of the 5th string and the IV7 reaching up to the D at the 5th fret, 5th string. But I'm not sure 'cause something sounds a bit out in the bass of that IV7 chord. Possibly that has to do with him fretting or damping the 6th string and pulling strings out of pitch. At 1:50-1:56 I think maybe he brings a 4 string F chord up to the 5th fret A (or maybe XX5655 A7) and then goes on to play around with licks reaching to the 8th fret.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on June 08, 2014, 03:24:24 PM
It also occurred to me that later in the song he goes all the way up to the high Eb with a B on the second string, which I have fretted at the 12th and 13th frets. If he were in DGDGBE up one fret these would be at the 14th and 15th frets. Since it sounds like he is playing a resonator, I'm remembering that Peter L. (oddenda) often loaned a resonator for players to use. I just can't remember if it was an early 12 fretter or a later 14 fretter. But I'm sure there is something about the licks down at the nut which someone will show can rule out one or the other? I just can't hear it.

[Edit] I see I have this reasoning backwards and it would be fretted lower in DGDGBE up one fret, at frets 10 and 11. Nevermind.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 08, 2014, 03:48:28 PM
Any other takers for the Eddie Kirkland song?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on June 08, 2014, 05:03:43 PM
I'm fairly sure it's not in standard ...

is it open G a little sharp?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on June 08, 2014, 05:10:01 PM
Well, it seems that we are going to have a nice dispersion of opinions here!

I started out hearing this being played in standard tuning, G position, pitched somewhere between G and A flat.
But having tried it out a little more, I think I'm going with Spanish. I do think that most of what I hear could be played in standard tuning, but it seems that Spanish gives you easier and more natural fingerings.

I hear the V and IV chords as having the minor 7ths on their bass. You could play them in standard tuning with the moving fingering x-3-4-5-3-x, and x-1-2-3-1-x, but in Spanish you could play them with what we normally associate as the "C7" fingering; x-5-4-5-3-x, and x-3-2-3-1-x. Since in Spanish, the 5th string is tuned down a whole step, that would give you the minor 7th on the bass, while playing the common C7 fingering. Playing a chord shape form from another tuning, and finding new interesting voicings seems more like a country blues musician thing, rather than trying to figure out difficult new fingerings. On top of that, I think I'm hearing the 5th of the IV chord being played in the bass, an eighth note early, before the chord is played. In Spanish this would be the open 5th string, a much easier note to play in between changing the chords, than in standard tuning, where it would be on the 3rd fret of the 6th string.

The I chord seems to have the perfect 5th, the minor 7th, and the root stacked on top of each other, as far as I can hear. Again, you could play this in standard tuning with x-x-x-7-6-3, but in Spanish this becomes x-x-x.7-6-5, which is much easier, especially since I think I'm hearing the chord being slid in.

I must add, however, that if the song is played in Spanish tuning, I can't hear a single note being played on the 6th string, so I can't be sure whether it is tuned down a whole step from standard, or not.

And, of course, I could be completely wrong with all this! :)

Cheers

Pan

Edited to add: I see Gumbo posted just before me, and seems to agree with open G / Spanish.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on June 08, 2014, 06:29:44 PM
Now I guess i could try to put into words why I feel it's not standard. That seems to be the point of the thread? To begin to describe what we actually hear? pan has come up with chord voicings and tomorrow I may even retune but tonight it's as much as I can do to just describe my thought process (minimal as it is)

Ok the I chord is fairly easy to find with an E shape at the 3rd fret but the other chord soundings are awkward and the fills don't flow (in standard). The open strings don't help. I haven't tried retuning but open G seems to be a possibility- it sounds familiar

that's all I got.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on June 08, 2014, 07:46:40 PM
A vote for Spanish but haven't worked out much beyond that - great tune though - just need more hours in the day.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on June 09, 2014, 03:59:43 AM
Perhaps G6 up half a tone.

Jolly good idea Johnm.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on June 09, 2014, 04:31:28 AM
Hi all

To add to the conversation, what also originally made me think of standard tuning, G-position, is that around at 0:38, I believe that Kirkland is playing a brief bVII chord (F) before the IV chord with the 3rd in bass (C7/E). They could be fingered x-x-3-2-1-x, and x-x-2-3-1-x in standard tuning. However the strings 4,3, and 2 are not changed from the standard, when tuning to Spanish, so the same chords could be played with the exact same fingerings in Spanish as well.

Later on at around 3:48 he's playing an descending chromatic figure on the 4th string, from the 3rd fret to the 2nd, 1st, and open string, with the 3rd and 2nd string ringing open on top of the bass notes. Again this could be played with the same fingering in either standard tuning or Spanish.

I'm still sticking with Spanish, though!

Keep the conversation going folks!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 09, 2014, 10:23:49 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for your responses on the Eddie Kirkland song.  It's good to see that all of the tunings/positions proposed are very close to each other in sound.  Here are the answers to the questions that were posed, with explanations to follow:
   *  Eddie Kirkland's playing position/tuning was Spanish at Aflat, with a follow-up;
   *  The voicings he used for his V7 chord at 1:38 and 1:41 were  X-5-4-5-3-0 for the V7 chord and X-3-2-3-1-0 for the IV7 chord;
   *  The position he played behind his I chord at 1:50--1:56, and at the beginning of the tune was fretted at 7-6-5 on the top three strings, from third string to first string.
Congratulations to Pan for having figured these all out spot on, and for reasoning out his choices so well, too.  Well done, Pan!

Going to the V7 and IV7 chord fingerings first, these are both fingered just as Pan said, exactly like a C7 fingering you would play at the base of the neck in standard tuning.  Because in Spanish tuning you have not altered the the second, third and fourth strings in the tuning, but you have lowered the fifth string one whole step, when you finger this position in Spanish where you would normally play a C7 in standard tuning, you still get a C7 chord, but with its seventh voiced on the fifth string, where you would normally have a root in that shape.  So on those interior four strings in Spanish that chord ends up being voiced bVII-3-bVII-R.  The same effect is achieved relative to the V7 chord when you move the shape up two frets.  I've always associated the sound of that IV7 chord in Spanish with Fred McDowell.  Here he is playing "Kokomo Blues".  Listen from :20--:25, and that's when he first hits that chord.  It has such a distinctive sound that I think if you put your own guitar in Spanish and finger it a bit, along with the V7 chord two frets higher, you'll recognize that sound when you hear it from now on.

https://youtu.be/EWb6eVHdnQY

The position that Eddie Kirkland used for his I7 chord at 1:50--1:56 is a sound that I've always associated with Lightnin' Hopkins playing one of his E blues.  If you play a blues in E position, standard tuning, and brush the top three strings with the first string open while sliding into the fourth fret of the third string and the third fret of the second string, you'll get the exact sound that Eddie Kirkland gets in his song, where he's transferred that sound to Spanish tuning.  In E, Lightnin' is voicing those top three strings V-bVII-R, and Eddie Kirkland has transferred that very voicing to Spanish when he fingers it 7-6-5 on his top three strings. 
The same position could be played in G6 tuning, but it would be a much more reachy 7-6-3, and what would make it next to impossible to duplicate Eddie Kirkland's sound is that he's holding the first string still but sliding into the third and second strings.  In Spanish, you can fret the first string fifth fret with your index finger, and use your second and third fingers to slide up to the sixth fret of the second string and the seventh fret of the third string, respectively.

As far as additional places in the song that might help you identify the tuning as Spanish, at 2:54-2:55 and at 5:16-5:17, Eddie Kirkland slides up on the first three string into a major chord voiced R-3-5 on the top three strings, pretty high.  When he does this, he is essentially playing slide without a slide, for he is sliding on the top three strings into the twelfth fret just like you would do with a slide.

One peculiarity of the sound of the song that I sort of semi-registered when first listening to it but didn't remark on strongly until listening more carefully has to do with his never hitting the low V note normally available in Spanish on the open sixth string.  What I discovered listening more closely is that at various times in his rendition, 1:08-1:09, 1:59, 2:09-2:11, 3:51-3:52, 4:10, you can hear him hitting two strings in unison at the pitch of his open fifth string.  How was he doing that?  Either he was fretting the sixth string at the fifth fret while brushing it and the open fifth string together, or he actually had the sixth string tuned up, to a unison with his fifth string, G-G-D-G-B-D and was brushing the two strings open.  The second option is what he did, because the first option would require him to hold down that fifth fret of the sixth string while doing a lot of free-handing activity in the treble--not plausible.  Having the two lowest strings tuned to a unison low I note explains both how he could sound that pitch relatively easily on two strings at once and why he never goes to the low V note that is normally available in Spanish tuning.

I had no idea Eddie Kirkland was using the customized Spanish tuning when I selected the song.  The only person I had heard using the G-G-D-G-B-D tuning with the fifth and sixth strings in unison prior to Eddie Kirkland was Roscoe Holcomb, (and people copying Roscoe) who used it routinely.  Another Spanish tuning off-shoot that I've only heard the Louisiana musician Herman E. Johnson (or people copying him) use, is G-G-D-G-B-D, but with the sixth string tuned an octave below the fifth string.  It's an amazing sound, and you can hear him use that tuning on "She Had Been Drinking". 

She Had Been Drinking- Herman E. Johnson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9zcq8cXb-4#ws)

Thanks, folks, for participating.  I can't tell you how valuable I think doing this kind of close listening is--I think you learn so much when you really get into it.  Hearing these different sounds also provides lots of ideas for utilizing different licks, chordal positions and tunings in places we've never considered using them before.  Please don't feel like the discussion of this particular tune has to stop at this point either, if you have further questions or points you'd like to make.

All best,
Johnm 

   
   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 09, 2014, 12:23:17 PM
Hi all,
Apropos of the last post, here is a tune where Roscoe Holcomb played in his G-G-D-G-B-D tuning, with his fifth and sixth strings tuned to a unison.

Roscoe Holcomb - Fair Miss In The Garden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl9FwsyWpuM#)

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 09, 2014, 01:03:12 PM
This may be of interest, especially the bit from 8.25 where he retunes his guitar. He certainly had a few tricks  up his sleeve:
http://youtu.be/FPxoZ3wVZfg (http://youtu.be/FPxoZ3wVZfg)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 09, 2014, 05:58:54 PM
Thanks for that, Prof.  He really did have some tricks up his sleeve.  That last tuning is altogether new to me.  And it doesn't help all that much to see someone's hands when he's playing in a tuning that is so alien that you're not equipped to make any sense of what he's doing!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 10, 2014, 10:26:55 PM
Hi all,
I've got a couple of tunes with only one questions apiece.  The first is a field recording by "Big Boy" called simply "Blues".  I discovered it today and can't stop listening to it.

https://youtu.be/4S5iSLBwhiw

SPOKEN:  I was travelin' South, see, I was goin' a hobo trip.  Home flyin' freight come up through the yard, see, they always tone a bell in the yard.

GUITAR TONES BELL

Gettin' near the crossing, I mean she always give four blows on the whistle, which is two long, two short.

GUITAR BLOWS WHISTLE

When she gets clear of the crossing, I thought I'd catch this freight.  I caught this freight when she stopped.  Detective came over, a-runnin.  Cast my eyes at his, at which he was suspicious, then here's the song I sing for him.
SUNG:  Nearer, my God, to Thee
Nearer to Thee
Nearer, my God, to Thee
Nearer to Thee

Nearer my song shall be
Nearer, my God, to Thee
Nearer, my God, to Thee
Nearer to Thee

SPOKEN:  He passed me up.  The brakeman come along, the brakeman says I am accusin' him.  Quite naturally, when you get a long way from home you take the blues, and here's the blues I played for the brakeman.

SUNG:  Ever been down, you know 'bout how'd I feel
You ever been down, know 'bout how'd I feel
Like a soldier laid me on some battlefield

---------------, had it all my days
Trouble, trouble, had it all my days
Yes, trouble, trouble, had it all my days
Lord, I b'lieve to my soul trouble follow me to my grave

-----------, baby, explain this lonesome song
Won't you run here, baby, explain this lonesome song
Won't you run here, baby, explain this lonesome song
'Cause I'm worried and troubled, I don't know what to do

Lord, I'm standin' here wonderin' would a matchbox hold my clothes
Lord, standin' here wonderin' would a matchbox hold my clothes
Lord, I'm standin' here wonderin' would a matchbox hold my clothes
For I haven't got many, got so far to go

I'm Georgia-raised, but b'lieve Alabama bound, Lord knows
I'm Georgia-raised, b'lieve I'm 'Bama bound
Georgia-raised, b'lieve that I'm 'Bama bound
'T'ain't no need of talkin', that's no way to do

Edited 11/19 to pick up corrections from Waxwing
Edited 11/20 to pick up correction from dj
 

The second is David (Honeyboy) Edwards doing "I Love My Jelly Roll".

https://youtu.be/uUzsaffs8Zs

Jelly roll, jelly roll, you can hang it on a mind
You hypnotized my Daddy just to run my Mama blind
I love my jelly, I love my jelly roll

Jelly roll, jelly roll be layin' on my mind
Gon' hypnotize my Mama just to run my Daddy blind
Jelly roll, people, hangin' on my mind
I might hypnotize my Mama just to run my Daddy blind

Mama's got the rub-board, sister's got the tub
Sister's got the rub-board and brother's got the jug
Jelly roll keep hangin' on my mind
I'm gonna hypnotize my Daddy just to run my Mama blind

SOLO

Look here, Mama, can't you see?
Shakin' that thing never killin' poor me
I love my jelly, I love my jelly roll
I'm gonna hypnotize my Daddy just to run my Mama blind

Look here, Mama, why don't you look at sis?
She's standin' 'round the corner doin' the dirty dirty twist
Jelly roll, keep hangin' on my mind
I'm gonna hypnotize my Daddy just to run my Mama blind

SOLO X 2


The question for each of these tunes is:  What tuning/position is it played out of?

Please don't post any answers until Thursday, June 12, and just try to figure them out by ear.  Thanks!

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on June 12, 2014, 04:26:59 AM
Too bad I missed the Eddie Kirkland tune challenge by being out of town and away from the internet. The 5-6-7 G7 chord voicing is something I would have recognised because of the Robert Johnson association this sound has for me.

Anyway, here's how I would answer the current question:

Big Bo - Blues: Vestapol tuning (don't know the key as I don't have a guitar to check). The V chord at 0:25 sounds like the V chord in Blind Blake's "Police Dog Blues", so it has to be Vestapol.

Honeyboy Edwards - I Love My Jelly Roll: Standard Tuning - C Position. Sounds like he borrowed from Blind Lemon's (and maybe even Blind Blake's) playing in C.

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harvey on June 12, 2014, 05:00:21 AM
Completely agree with Mr Mando

Vestapol for Blues

... and really like the Honeyboy Edwards song. Agreed it sounds like a strong Blind Lemon influence. The turnaround was the key for me on the 1st and 2nd strings down from the 3rd and 5th fret. back to the C
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 12, 2014, 05:10:54 AM
Agree with standard C for the Honeyboy, but I'm going with cross note for the other one, on the basis that I haven't been right on any of these yet, and I don't want to spoil my record.

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on June 12, 2014, 05:35:22 AM
.... I haven't been right on any of these yet, and I don't want to spoil my record.

Hey, I know exactly what you're talking about! A couple of pages back, I have even changed my (correct) opinion about a tune cause I was too sure I was right.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Norfolk Slim on June 12, 2014, 06:03:23 AM
I'm cheating a little because I've only listened now- having already seen others' comments.  I'm also listening on a rotten telephone headset in the office...

But fwiw, I would have leaped straight for vastapol on the first one.  I've strained to hear something odd in case its a trick question but haven't managed to hear anything so far.

Second one more tricky, but there are some distinctly blakeish motifs to my ear which shout C.

So I'm basically agreeing with what others have said.  But would have gone for those anyway (honest!)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on June 12, 2014, 06:18:01 AM
My guess for the Big Boy was Vestapol pitched at E b because I think I hear some Robert Wilkins licks  from "No Way To Get Along".
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harriet on June 12, 2014, 06:29:50 AM
I'm with dunplaying vestapol Eb for Big Boy.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 12, 2014, 11:06:02 AM
I thought the Big Boy tune was in Cross note at first hearing but on a couple more listens last night I've convinced myself it's Vestapol.  The Honeyboy tune sounds like it's played out of C position but it sounds a couple of frets up to me putting it in D.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on June 12, 2014, 06:15:52 PM
Hi all

Agreed on Vestapol in Eb, and standard tuning, C-position, pitched at around D (capo II?).

On a side note, is it just me, or is the Honeboy Edwards tune a remake of "Hesitation Blues"? I've been on a Hesitation Blues trip lately, so I might be just imagining things. :)

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 12, 2014, 10:51:53 PM
Hi all,
Thanks for participating, folks, and it's neat to see some first-time identifiers posting.  "Big Boy" did play his "Blues" out of Vestapol.  Two places that point towards the tuning being Vestapol rather than cross-note are at :18-:19 and at :23-:24, where he plays an arpeggio at the twelfth fret from the first string to the second, third, and fourth strings while holding his slide still; he gets a major chord doing that, so that pretty much puts him in Vestapol.  I really think Big Boy's playing on the piece and singing are sensational.  His time was so powerful, and he had a really nice deep singing voice.  This performance is right up there with my all-time favorites in Vestapol, like Jimmy Lee Williams' "Have You Ever Seen Peaches".  Big Boy's time and touch remind me a lot of Smith Casey.  I think I'll try to transcribe the lyrics, though a lot of the spoken passages are kind of tough to hear.

Honeyboy Edwards' "I Love My Jelly Roll" was played in C position in standard tuning, where everybody put it, I think.  C position seems a clearer identification to make than some of the other tunings/positions, and it may be that a raggy progression like the one in this song assists in making the identification.  I had much the same reaction to the tune that Pan did upon hearing it for the first time--it just seemed like "Hesitation Blues" with a different set of lyrics to me.  I wonder if Honeyboy's playing here shows some Hacksaw Harney influence?  He does a couple of things that remind me of Hacksaw's playing.

Someone who has been participating and following this thread suggested to me today that it might be fun if people found any of the songs in the thread interesting or challenging enough, to start  separate threads devoted to a group effort to figure out one or more of the songs in a more thorough way.  That has been done in the past here, though it has been a while since anybody did it.  I remember years ago a number of people collaborating to try and figure out Willie Trice's "Good Time Boogie".  I think that thread can be found towards the tail end of this board probably.  In any event, if any of you would like to start a separate thread to figure out any of the tunes we've looked at so far, go for it!  I think I'll probably just stick here trying to scout out interesting and challenging songs for this thread that haven't been already transcribed  or publicly identified as being in a particular tuning/position.  There's so much of the music for which all of the tunings/positions have already been identified--if you don't believe me, just check in Weeniepedia!  It's been great having a reason to scout out songs and performances I've never heard before.  I'll find another performance to post for identification here very soon.
All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 13, 2014, 10:17:46 PM
Hi all,
The song I found is "My Pore Mother Keeps On Praying For Me", performed by Wallace Chains, who was recorded in Texas while a prison inmate in the period 1933--1958.  The song can be found on the Document CD, "Field Recordings: Vol. 6: Texas (1933-1958)", DOCD-5580.
Chains was quite an inventive and accomplished player, and original, too.  He does a lot of things on this cut that I've not heard other players do when playing in the same position.  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/ttI4uyX-dUw

My poor mother keeps on praying for me, ooo-well-well
My poor mother keeps on praying for me
Say, "God bless my son, wherever he may be."

Worked all the summer long, didn't save no railroad fare, ooo-well-well
All the summer long, didn't save no railroad fare
Now my money's all gone, and my friends, they don't even care

When I'd work in the summer, when the days were long, ooo-ooo-ooo
I worked in the summer, babe, when the days were long
Now I ain't got no money, all my friends is gone

Well, I would go beggin' but I don't like playing blind, ooo-ooo
Well, I would go beggin' but I don't like playing blind
And the woman she's gone, took all [recording defective here] of mine

You people see my condition, won't let me have my fun, ooo-ooo
You people see my condition, won't let me have my fun
And my money's all gone, and my friend won't give me none

The identification questions are:
   * What position/tuning is playing the song out of?;
   * What chords is he playing at :07-:09 and :10-:12, and where is he fingering them?;
   * Where is he fretting the walk-down he does at 1:30-1:34?

As always, please work it out just by listening and trying what you hear out on your guitar, and please don't post any answers until Sunday, June 15.  Please feel free to answer as many questions as you wish.  This tune really rewards repeat listening, because Wallace Chains plays a tremendous number of variations.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on June 14, 2014, 10:57:56 PM
I apologize for jumping the gun on this a bit, but it's 15-June in my time zone, and I happen t be up!  :)

The playing on this song is just wickedly sophisticated, it seems to me - like Jesse and Willard Thomas rolled into one guy!

The identification questions are:
   * What position/tuning is playing the song out of?;

Standard tuning, key of G - tuned low, maybe down about three half steps.

   * What chords is he playing at :07-:09 and :10-:12, and where is he fingering them?;

B - B7 and C - C7, relative to the position, both with a little run from the tonic on the first string down to the b7, fingered thusly:

B - xx4447
B7 - xx4445
C - xx5558
C7 - xx5556
 
   * Where is he fretting the walk-down he does at 1:30-1:34?

Such a great lick. All in first position, I think of these as four double-stops, thumb leads, followed by the index. First two double stops are on the 1st and 3rd strings, last two are on the 4th and 2nd strings:

DS1: xxx2x1
DS2: xxx0x0
DS3: xx3x3x
DS4: xx0x0x

Kinda hard for me to hear, but he repeats this twice - the second time around, DS4 resolves to C, I think:

DS1: xxx2x1
DS2: xxx0x0
DS3: xx3x3x
DS4: xx2x1x

The lower string of each DS is played first with the thumb, followed by index on the higher string. Slick!

There is a LOT going on in this one.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 15, 2014, 03:11:15 AM
You're right to jump the gun Frankie. We Euroweenies have an unfair  time zone advantage! This is a wonderful performance with some of the best playing I've heard for a while. I love the vocals on this too. I think you're right in your analysis. I'd been battling away with regular tuning key of F, with the chords at 07 and 09 as long A/A7 and long B/B7. That's as far as I'd got. Fortunately as it turns out, as I'll now have a go in tuned down G! The doublestops on the walk down often appear over the G7 chord in Scrapper Blackwell's playing in D. Anyway, another fine puzzle!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on June 15, 2014, 03:48:09 AM
I was with you Prof as I thought it was in F and the first chord I had as xxx023 .
A knockout track.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 15, 2014, 10:30:43 AM
Hi all,
Other thoughts on the cut?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 15, 2014, 07:35:43 PM
Hi all,
Since no one appears to be eager to add to the identifications of Wallace Chains' recording of "My Pore Mother Keeps On Praying For Me", I'll post the answers.  As it turns out, Frank nailed the identifications in the first post, with:
   * The song being played out of G position in standard tuning (though tuned a step to a step-and-a-half low)
   * The chords being a B derived from the "long A" shape walking down chromatically on the first string to a B7, followed by a C voiced the same way and walking down to a C7 the same way.
   * A walk-down in sixths, with the thumb in the right hand leading the index finger, just the way Frank described it.
Great job on the identifications, Frank!  Your detailed descriptions of how Chains made his moves greatly simplified my job of describing what he did. 

A couple of additional points might be worth mentioning.  Prof Scratchy and dunplaying both said they had been working on F position in standard tuning, but at the stage they had gotten with the tune, they had both identified the first chord change correctly relative to the position they were working out of. 

The more tunes we work through in this thread, the more apparent it becomes to me that in terms of determining how a musician on a recording played what he/she did, the most crucial factor is making the identification of the playing position/tuning that the musician used for the song correctly, because the answers to all of the other questions depend on that determination having been made correctly.  Two factors in the sound of Chains' rendition that may have helped identify his playing position as G position in standard tuning are:
  * Chains at the very start rocks from his I chord to a V7 played out of a C7 shape, which has a pretty distinctive sound.  Unfortunately, the C7 shape could be used in either the F position or the G position as a V7 chord, so that alone won't swing the identification, though it makes G position a possibility.
   * At :16-:17, Chains does a walk-down from his I chord to his VI7 chord in the bass.  That move eliminates F position in standard tuning as a possibility, because the lowest scale degree you have access to in the bass when playing out of the F position in standard tuning is the major VII note, E.  At that point G position becomes a much stronger choice as Chains' playing position.

The point Frank made about Chains sounding like a combination of Jesse and Willard (Ramblin') Thomas was really well taken, and thinking about it, I realized that I thought that at least a couple of moves in the Wallace Chains song duplicated ones that Ramblin' had played.  I'm attaching an .mp3 of Ramblin' Thomas's recording of "Lock And Key Blues".  Compare, if you wish, Thomas's harmonized walk-down from his I chord to his VI7 chord (G to E7) at :01--:03 of "Lock and Key" to Chains' walk-down at :16--:17 of "My Pore Mother Keeps On Praying For Me".  Compare also the nifty descending lick Thomas plays at 1:10--1:12 of "Lock and Key" to what Chains plays at 1:57--1:59.  They really sound like they knew each other.  Ramblin' Thomas's sound in G position, standard tuning was so unusual that the tendency is to assume Chains copped his ideas from Ramblin' Thomas, but it could have been the other way around, for all we know.  I admit to finding the Chains piece more satisfying to my tastes, and he has so much other neat stuff in his rendition that Thomas did not play, too.  And I agree with Prof. Scratchy that not only is Chains' playing terrific, I really like his singing, too.  What a terrific piece!

I'll try another song soon.  Any other comments or questions on "My Pore Mother Keeps On Praying For Me"?

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: wild irish rose on June 15, 2014, 09:53:42 PM
Wallace Chains sounds like a seasoned performer and a lot of the notes he hits on this track give me goosebumps. Fantastic song and definitely grabs your ear throughout. Now I just hope to work out an arrangement of my own to perform.

This thread (and just the forum in general really) has introduced me to a lot of new recordings and reading everyone's breakdowns really inspires! Hopefully some day soon I can have a go at it just to better train my ear.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on June 16, 2014, 07:15:18 AM
What a fantastic performance! I agree with everyone, he's a very sophisticated player. Thanks again for a great song for an example, John!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 16, 2014, 04:44:06 PM
Hi all,
I've got another tune picked out--it's called simply "Blues" by Eddie Bowles, who was recorded by Art Rosenbaum in Iowa, I believe.  I think Eddie's time has a beautiful relaxed quality, and like Wallace Chains, he had a lot of sophisticated sounds and harmonic ideas I've not heard other players utilize.  I have a slightly different idea for the identifications this time.  Let's do it in two stages.  In the first stage, we'll just try to answer:
   * What playing position/tuning did Eddie Bowles play "Blues" in?
Please wait until Tuesday, June 17 to post your identification of Eddie Bowles' playing position/tuning.  On Wednesday that determination will be made, and at that point we'll go on to questions of the "How did he play the lick at X point of the rendition?" type.  As always, please use only your ears and your guitar to make your assessment of what playing position/tuning he was working out of.  I hope you enjoy Eddie Bowles' "Blues" as much as I have.

https://youtu.be/Tlhwt0Z7Tio

I woke up this morning, nothing on my mind
I woke up this morning, nothing on my mind
And I looked out the window, saw my baby cryin'

I wondered in my mind what the reason is my woman's out there cryin'
And I asked her, "Baby, why are you cryin' today?"
Say, "I got the blues, sweet daddy, feel like goin' away."

I told her, "Sweet baby, I ain't got a dime to my name."
I said, "Sweet mama, I haven't got a dime to my name.
So you see, sweet mama, I have no money for your carfare or the train."

She looked at me, this what she said to me,
"You don't need no money where I intend to go.
I think I'm goin' to the river and jump over and drown."

Well, she started to the river, she stopped and turned 'round and 'round
I was sittin' there, baby, with my head hung down 'most to the ground
When she turned to start walkin' back to me, baby, I could go through the ground

I taken her by the hand, walked away from where she was
And I taken her by the hand, "Mama, don't get them kind of blues no more."
Ever since that, baby, we never had no blues no more

All best,
Johnm
   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on June 17, 2014, 03:02:32 AM
That's C position in standard tuning capoed up to where I can easily sing the low five note (which I can hardly do without a capo), probably 2 or 3 frets, no giutar at hand to check. Great tune I've never heard before. Nice II7 chord and Count-Basie-like turnaround ideas.

This whole thread, I have to say, is so much fun. Too bad I missed the Wallace Chains tune, because I usually stay away from computers on weekends. I don't really want to change my habits in this respect, so would it be possible to use Mondays as start for our guesses for the weekend challenges??
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Laura on June 17, 2014, 03:36:06 AM
This is a really great track, love it!  I'll take a guess at the tuning only because it sounds similar to something I've been playing around with and kind of works with this - Is it in Drop-D? or at least D position.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 17, 2014, 09:56:21 AM
I'm going to venture that he had the guitar tuned a way low (maybe D for E), then capoed at 4 and played in C position.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on June 17, 2014, 10:35:05 AM
Maybe in D,capoed at the second fret .  I think I can hear "Misty" and "The Glory Of Love" in there.
Another smashing track.
EDIT I mean played with C position to sound D.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on June 17, 2014, 12:59:23 PM
A vote for C position capoed at the second.  The way some of the baselines are played that resolve to the I chord seems to fit under the hand better.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harvey on June 17, 2014, 02:45:03 PM
C capo 2 as well for me. I have been trying all night to replicate the pitch and that is the closest I get. Interesting what The Prof has suggested as the strings sound quite slack however I am not sure how I anyone would no for sure ?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on June 17, 2014, 02:50:53 PM
Hi all

C position, sounding at D for me as well. What a great song again, some very pretty chord voicings there as well.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 18, 2014, 09:59:18 AM
Hi all,
Eddie Bowles played his "Blues" out of C position in standard tuning as a good number of you had it.  He may well have been tuned low and then capoed, for his fifth and sixth strings sound a little slack on a couple of the licks he plays.  Like Wallace Chains, he had so many interesting sounds and ideas in his rendition that you could study it for a long time.  Given that he was playing in C position, please answer as many of the following questions as you wish.
   * Where is he fretting the rocking motion at :07--:11?  What strings are being fretted in the two positions and where are they being fretted?
   * Where is he fretting the chord he plays at :23--:25 and where does he fret the chord he resolves that chord into, at :26--:29?
   * Where is he fretting the chord he plays at 1:10--1:12?
Please don't feel you should be able to figure these answers out without trying things out on your guitars.  Listening and guitars would be a good way to go in figuring out your answers.  No transcription software, please.  Please don't post any answers until Thursday, June 19, and I'll post again on Friday in the PM.  Thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on June 19, 2014, 12:37:54 AM
Perhaps the rocking is between xxx023 and xxx025. A7 to A.

Maybe an upstroke xx3000 which leads to x23000 and resolves to C.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 19, 2014, 11:50:50 AM
For the rocking bit at 07-11 is he simply playing a first position C chord with the pinkie on the 1st string 3rd fret, then moving this whole position up a couple of frets so he sounds the melody on the first string 5th fret, then back again to the C chord (with G)?
For the .23 to.25 bit, is he playing a D9 partial (x5455x) resolving to a G7/6 (323000)?
Is the chord at 1.10 to 1.12 a first position Fm7?

These are the speculations from Scratchy Towers where I have been overcome by the unseasonable Edinburgh heat and am not quite myself. (Which may mean that I might be closer to right for once)! (Or most likely not).
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on June 19, 2014, 03:22:55 PM
With guitar in hand:

0:07 to 0:11:  C (x32013) to Gm9 (xx5335)
0:23 to 0:29: D9 (xx4210) to G13 (3x3000)
1:10 to 1:12: Fm7 (x31111)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on June 19, 2014, 06:43:10 PM
Hi all

Here are my guesstimations:

Quote
* Where is he fretting the rocking motion at :07--:11?  What strings are being fretted in the two positions and where are they being fretted?
- I believe he's playing the rocking motion between a C9 and a C13 chord, fingered x-3-2-3-3-3, and x-3-2-3-3-5.  This is a fairly modern sound to my ear, something you might encounter in the playing of T-Bone Walker, or phrased a little differently, in the playing of the rhythm guitar players of the rhythm & blues/ funk star James Brown.

Quote
* Where is he fretting the chord he plays at :23--:25 and where does he fret the chord he resolves that chord into, at :26--:29?
- Here I agree with Mr. Mando. I think the sound of the II9 chord with the 3rd in bass is very distinctive, and I associate this chord progression with William Moore's "Ragtime Millionaire", where he plays a little similar chord voicings in the intro (although he doesn't play the open E string on top of the D chord, and he voices the G13 chord a little differently).  I also associate these kind of chord voicings with the classical piano ragtime players' right hand voicings, take for example Scott Joplin's "The Entertainer", which has very similar passages. The brief target I chord sounds like a 1st position C chord to me.

Quote
* Where is he fretting the chord he plays at 1:10--1:12?
- This sounds to me like a bVI6 chord (relative to the IVm7), so I would guess the fingering could be something like 4-x-1-1-1-1.

Looking forward to hear the verdict again!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on June 20, 2014, 12:22:37 AM
With rested ears now, I think that Pan's suggestion for the 0:07 to 0:11 part is closer to what's actually going on than my attempt from after midnight. For the 1:10 to 1:12 part, I'm sticking with my first guess, as I still seem to hear a x3x1xx double stop followed by a xxx111 frail, so the mIII of the Fm(7) chord is above the V note (or the tonic above the 3rd, if you're thinking Ab6).

BTW, one thing that amazes me is how differently I seem to hear things depending on which time of the day I'm listening. I should probably start to do my transcriptions before noon instead of late at night.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 20, 2014, 11:58:35 AM
Hi all,
I thought I would get a head start on what Eddie Bowles was doing at the various places during the course of his "Blues", just because I have a little free time now.
   * At the :07-:011 point, his lower position is as Prof. Scratchy had it, X-X-2-3-1-3, a C7 with its third in the bass.  The higher chord that he rocks to is a little surprising, because it is a bit reachy.  It is similarly voiced on the top four strings and differs from the earlier chord only on the first string:  X-X-2-3-1-5.  It's a C13, or C6/7, with the sixth/thirteenth on top, and it is darn pretty.  It does require some activity with the little finger of the left hand, though.  Just voicing the top four strings definitely makes it easier to do than it would otherwise be.
   * At the :23-:29 point, he does resolve from a rootless D9, X-X-4-2-1-0, to a G13, voiced 3-X-3-0-0-0, both as described by mr mando and Pan.  Prof's D9 was the right chord, just voiced a little differently.
   * At the 1:10--1:12 point, he is playing an Fm7, or Ab6, as Pan had it, voicing just the top four strings, X-X-1-1-1-1.  My own choice for naming the chord would probably be Fm7, mostly because a rocking motion to the IV chord in the second bar of a 12-bar blues is a fairly common "uptown" move, and rocking to a IVm7 chord sort of goes that uptown move one better.

I feel like you all were hearing this song really well.  One thing neat about Eddie Bowles' approach is his use of so many rootless chord voicings, or ones in which the root is buried in the middle or top of the voicing, rather than sounding in the bass.  He reminds me of the contention of the great Jazz pianist Bill Evans, who especially favored rootless voicings because he felt like our ears fill in the root when it is not played.  Eddie Bowles' playing bears out Bill Evans' idea in this regard, at least for me.

I will post another song to work on later today, with first answers not to be posted until Monday, in response to mr mando's request.  I've been trying to go back to songs we discussed earlier in this thread and transcribe the lyrics, and have done that with several of the songs, if anyone is interested in working the songs out.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 20, 2014, 04:24:44 PM
Hi all,
The next song is "Alabama Prison Blues" by Jesse Wadley, on a field recording that was done at the Bellwood Prison Camp in Atlanta, where he was also recorded singing in the vocal quartet that I posted yesterday to the "Country Blues clips on YouTube" thread.  The identification questions for the song are:
   * What position/tuning is the song played out of?
   * Where is the movement in the treble at :01--:02 and :03--:04 fretted?
   * Where is the bass run at :08--:10 fretted?
   * Where is the harmonized passage at :31--:32 fretted?
   * Where are the lines from 2:15--2:17 fretted?
Here is Jesse Wadley's performance of "Alabama Prison Blues":

https://youtu.be/XevTRUts4PM

--come and see me, when I had so long
You wouldn't come to see me, babe, when I had so long
Lord, you won't come to see me, please count the days I'm gone

Judge read my verdict, rocked in his easy chair
Judge read my verdict, rocked in his easy chair
Says, "I'm sorry, Jesse Wadley, you can't have no mercy here."

Mr. Whitman come got me, Pat Campbell carried me down for trial
Mr. Whitman come got me, Pat Campbell carried me down for trial
Holly hung her head and cried like a baby child

Rocks is my pillow, cold ground is my bed
Rocks is my pillow, cold ground is my bed
Says, I want little Holly to hold my worried head

Holly Mae got a bed, and it shine like the morning star
Holly Mae got a bed, and it shine like the morning star
And when I get in, it rides like a trolley car

It's a low-down fireman, dirty engineer
It's a low-down fireman, dirty engineer
That will take my woman and leave me campin' here

I prays to God that train would have a wreck
I prayed to God that train would have a wreck
Don't hurt my baby, but break that engineer's neck

Please don't post any answers to the questions above until Monday, June 23, and just use your ears and guitar to arrive at your answers.  I hope you have fun with it.  I really love this song, both the singing and the playing.  And if there are any questions or comments about any of the previous tunes, please don't hesitate to post them.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 23, 2014, 09:02:21 AM
Hi all,
Are there any takers for Jesse Wadley's "Alabama Prison Blues"?  Answer as few or as many of the questions as you wish.  It's a beauty.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 23, 2014, 09:37:01 AM
OK, so let me kick start this and see where it goes:
Tuning, I'm getting G tuning (E and A strings tuned to D and G respectively.  Playing out of a the G at the 3rd fret.  Though not sure, as first I thought it was in G played out of dropped D but the bass run (G A A# B G E D G) is easier to play out of G tuning.

The movement in the treble at :01--:02 and :03--:04 is fretted at the 3rd fret, moving from b on 3rd string, d on 2nd to b on 3rd, e on 2nd back to d Then e on 2nd,  g on first to a on first and back.  Sort of moving between G and C chords.

The harmonized passage at :31--:32 is something like the open 3rd and 2nd string then fret the 3rd str 3rd fret, 2nd str 2nd fret, move up a fret, open strings then move from first fret, to 2nd to 3rd (fingering as before) and back to open 2nd and 3 strings.  If that makes sense!

Ran out of time for the last bit (Where are the lines from 2:15--2:17 fretted) but it's a sort of wee boogie pattern g, b, d, e, f.

Apologies if all this sounds gobbledegook but I thought I knew what I was talking about when I started :-)
Hopefully, others will be a bit more enlightening.
All the best

 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 23, 2014, 12:08:00 PM
I'm going to say regular tuning, key of G. The movement at 01 to 04 is achieved by playing a second position G6 chord at the third fret, rocking to a C partial at 3xxx53. The bass run is from 6th string 3rd fret to 5th string 1st fret to 5th string 2nd fret. The harmonised run is achieved with the partial G chord at 2nd string third fret and third string 4th fret being taken down two frets to the first , then strings  2 and 3 open, then the partial G shape ascending back to land at the third and fourth frets. the lines from 2.15 to 2.17 are a boogie based around a regular G chord, as Leadbelly might have played it, 6th string 3rd fret, 5th string 2nd fret, 4th str open, 4th str 2nd and 3rd frets, then back down on the 4th string, fret 2, then open.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on June 23, 2014, 12:33:33 PM
Sounds like plain Spanish (D-G-D-G-B-D) to me. Thus, the parts would be as follows:

0:01 to 0:04 :  x-o-x-4-3-x to x-o-x-4-5-x and back and x-o-x-x-5-5 to x-o-x-x-5-7 and back sliding into the lower melody notes
0:08 to 0:10 : on the fifth string 0 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 0
0:31 to 0:32 : x-x-x-o-o-x, x-x-x-2-1-x, x-x-x-x-o-o, x-x-x-o-o-x, x-x-x-2-1-x, x-x-x-x-o-o, x-x-x-2-1-x, x-x-x-o-o-x
2:15 to 2:17 : 5th/open, 5th/fret4, 4th/open, 4th/fret2, 4th/fret3, 4th/fret2,  4th/open, 5th/fret4.


Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on June 23, 2014, 05:34:46 PM
Hi all

Here are my thoughts.

Quote
* What position/tuning is the song played out of?

At first, when I listened to the song, I was fairly sure that it's in standard tuning in G position. In fact, most of the specific licks JohnM asks for, could well be played out of standard tuning, if I'm not badly mistaken.

However, when I had time to listen to the song some more, I began to hear things that made me doubt my initial assumption. First and foremost, I think I'm hearing a low D note on the bass, altering with the root G, for the I chord. Secondly, especially the V chord in the tune doesn't sound like your usual open position D7th chord, but something a little different. Since I believe I've figured out how to play the enquired licks in Spanish in G, without too much difficulties, I now believe this is the tuning/position the song is played in.

Quote
* Where is the movement in the treble at :01--:02 and :03--:04 fretted?

This was tricky, since the song starts so abruptly, and with some surface noise. I believe the lick could be played with something like a slide on the 4th fret of the 3rd string, followed by the open 2nd and 1st strings, then the same strings fretted at the 2nd string, going back to the previous open strings, and then down to the open 3rd and 2nd strings. This is followed in a sequence for the IV chord, with again a slid note on the 5th fret on the 2nd string, then the 2nd and 1st strings played at the 5th fret, followed by the same strings on 6th and 7th frets, then back to the 5th fret with the same strings, then 5th fret with strings 3 and 2, before going back to the open G chord on top 3 strings. What stroke my ears was the C# note on the 2nd fret of the 2nd string, against the G chord. Since C# is a #IV note and doesn't belong in the key of G major, it has a "bite" to my ear, especially, since the vocal melody in the song goes back and forth between B and C (natural) in the similar parts of the song, later on.

Quote
* Where is the bass run at :08--:10 fretted?

My best guess is on the 5th string, on frets: 0-2-3-0-2-3-0-2, followed by the IV chord. The lick could be played at the 6th string, on frets 5-7-8-5-7-8-5-7 too, but perhaps the low G sounds more like an open string.

Quote
* Where is the harmonized passage at :31--:32 fretted?

I believe the lick is played on strings 3 and 2; starting with open strings, then 2nd and 1st frets, followed by 4th and 3rd frets, then all this repeated, then followed by 2nd and 1st frets, to open strings. All this from low to high notes, on the interval of thirds.

Quote
* Where are the lines from 2:15--2:17 fretted?

Open 3rd string, followed by the top open strings for the I chord, then a bass lick starting with the open 4th string, walking up the string to the 2nd and 3rd fret, then back down to the 2nd and open string, followed by the 4th fret on the 5th string. All this, while brushing the top opens strings as well.

Looking forward again, to see if I'm anywhere near the ballpark. :)

Cheers

Pan


Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on June 23, 2014, 08:21:56 PM
Here is my take.

Standard tuning, key of G. I didn't hear a low D, I don't think. I thought I heard a F# in the bass, common for the V chord in this key.

Movement 1: Slide into 2nd string 3rd fret together with 3rd string 4th fret, then play 2nd string and 3rd string 5th fret.
Release the 5th fret notes to play the 2nd string 3rd fret, 3rd string 4th fret again, then release to play open 2nd and open 3rd strings.
xxx43x
xxx55x
xxx43x
xxx00x

Movement 2:
slide into 1st string 3rd fret and 2nd string 5th fret, also holding 3rd string 5th fret. Only play the 1st and 2nd strings
Then play 1st string 5th fret and 2nd sting 5th fret together. Then the original two notes together, then 2nd and 3rd strings together, 5th fret.
xxx(5)53
xxx(5)55
xxx(5)53
xxx55x

Bass run:
6th string 3rd fret, 5th string open, 5th string 2nd fret, 6th string 3rd fret, 5th open, 5th str second fret, 5th str open, 6th string 3rd fret.
3xxxxx
x0xxxx
x2xxxx
3xxxxx
x0xxxx
x2xxxx
x0xxxx
3xxxxx
(This could be as several posters said, ending on A or B note, I found it very hard to hear)

Harmonized passage:
3rd string open with 2nd string open, 3rd string 2nd fret with 2nd string 1st fret, 3rd string 4th fret with 2nd string 3rd fret,
repeat, then end with 3rd string 2nd fret with 2nd string 1st fret, then open 3rd and 2nd strings. This is the same as the bass lick before but up an octave and harmonized.

lines at 2:15:
open 4th string with the thumb throughout, 2nd string 3rd fret, 2nd string 3rd fret with 1st string open, 2nd string 3rd fret with 1st string 1st fret, 2nd string 3rd fret with 1st string open, 2nd string 3rd fret, 3rd string open.
xx0x3x
xx0x30
xx0x31
xx0x30
xx0x3x
xx00xx
This is the lick I felt really sealed the deal as standard tuning. I am hearing the open E 1st string ring during this movement.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on June 24, 2014, 05:49:56 AM
What stroke my ears was the C# note on the 2nd fret of the 2nd string, against the G chord.

I hadn't paid attention to that C# before you mentioned it, but now I that I listened again, you're right and I think there's also an F# over the IV chord, so 0:01 to 0:04 would be  x-o-x-4-o-o to x-o-x-x-2-2 and back and x-o-x-x-5-5 to x-o-x-x-7-7  and back again.
Anyway this makes an even stronger case for Spanish tuning.
I first thought of standard tuning, A position tuned down because of the low V note I clearly hear at 0:15 and many other instances and because of the V chord's two top voices, where I heard the familiar second interval (VII-I), like in an E7 with the pinky at the 3rd fret 2nd string. But then I realized the chord lacks ist third, which convinced me it was Spanish.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 24, 2014, 09:53:29 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for your responses.  It's good to see everybody pretty close to each other with regard to where they hear "Alabama Prison Blues" being played: G6 tuning, G position in standard tuning, and Spanish tuning.  Here are the answers to the questions that were posed:
   * Jesse Wadley did play the piece out of Spanish tuning;
   * The passages at :01--:02 and :03--:04 were fretted much as Pan had the :01--:02 phrase and mister mando put the :03---:04  passage in his most recent post.  The striking thing about the passage is the #IV note the Pan mentioned, and in both instances it falls on the second string.  In the :01--:02 phrase it is the #IV of the I chord.  In the :03--:04 passage it is the #IV of the IV chord, because in Spanish, you can get your IV chord by barring at the fifth fret.  In the :01--:02 passage, Wadley does a slide to the fourth fret of the third string as a pick-up, picks the first string open, then the first two fretted at the second fret, returns to pick them both open, and hits them once more open before jumping up to the :03--:04 phrase.  For the :03--:04 phrase, he slides into the fifth fret of the first two strings, picking them simultaneously, re-picks them there, picks them both fretted at the seventh fret and returns them both to the fifth fret, then picking the second and third strings at the fifth fret, resolving to the first two string open.
   * The bass run at :08--:10 is all played on the fifth string, and is started on the downbeat of a measure, falling rhythmically as 1 + 2 + 3+ 4+ , and fretted at 0-2-3-0-2-3-0-2.  The last note in the run he may sometimes re-play as an open fifth string in the course of his rendition.
   * The harmonized passage at :31--:32 was described correctly by several of you, both those who chose Spanish and those who chose G position in standard tuning, and it does sit in exactly the same place in both tunings/positions.  While the third string plays 0-2-4-0-2-4-2-0, probably using the second finger to fret that, the second string plays 0-1-3-0-1-3-1-0, probably fretted with the index finger.
   * The lines from 2:15--2:17 were one of the most telling places in the rendition for establishing Spanish tuning. Jesse Wadley at that place in the song walks a line up and down in octaves between the first and fourth strings,  going  0-2-3-2-0 on those two strings, probably fretting the fourth string with his second finger and the first string with his third finger.  That movement in octaves is a sound I associate with Spanish tuning a lot, and can be found in tunes like Charlie Patton's "Pea Vine Blues", Skip James' "Special Rider", and Marshall Owens' "Try Me One More Time", as well as several Buddy Boy Hawkins tunes.
Apart from where all of these licks were played, what were other sound characteristics that would help to identify the piece as being played in Spanish?
   *  When Wadley moves to the IV chord in his verses and is playing a simple boom-chang back-up under his singing, it really sounds like he took his chordal sound at the base of the neck and just moved it up the neck intact.  That sound is relatively easy to do with a barre straight across the neck at the fifth fret, as in Spanish tuning, but is less easy to do in standard tuning.  And Wadley never hits a IV chord with the low third that you would have, playing a C chord at the base of the neck in standard tuning, at the second fret of the fourth string.
   * Likewise, Wadley's V7 chord has the same pitch on top, the fifth of the key, as does his I chord.  In Spanish, that ends up being the open first string.  And Wadley never voices the third of his V7 chord on the first string.  In standard tuning it is easily accessible at the second fret, but in Spanish, it lies more awkwardly at the fourth fret of the first string.
"Alabama Prison Blues" has such a pretty melody.  It seems related to Ma Rainey's "Booze and Blues", or Charlie Patton's "High Sheriff Blues".  I kind of wonder if someone else was accompanying Wadley; the beginning of the song is so odd, where the singer comes in relative to the accompaniment.  It's hard to imagine someone accompanying himself being surprised by where the accompaniment starts, but it's certainly not impossible.  On second thought, Wadley may have intended to play a longer instrumental intro, but started singing on a visual cue from the person recording him that he should get going with the song. 
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 24, 2014, 10:48:00 AM
Doh! :'(
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 24, 2014, 01:09:57 PM
Hi all,
I have a stretch coming up where I expect to have either no access or very limited access to the internet, so I thought I'd just put up a couple of tunes for identification, just the tuning/position in which they're played.
The first is Kid Prince Moore's "Bug Juice Blues.  Vocally, he sounds so much like Teddy Darby to me here.  What tuning/position does he play "Bug Juice Blues" out of?

(Kid) Prince Moore - Bug Juice Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZspt_78sNc#)

SOLO

Love my bug juice, just as crazy 'bout it as I can be
Love my bug juice, just as crazy 'bout it as I can be
My late bug juice vein, Lord, I'm 'fraid it's gonna poison me

Took one drink last night and it made me go stone blind
Took one drink last night and it made me go stone blind
Tried to run away, but I had to take my time

SOLO

Sometime a drink make me act just like a doggone fool
Sometime a drink make me act just like a doggone fool
Two, three drinks make me kick like a doggone mule

Good man when I'm sober, hey-hey when I'm drunk
Good man when I'm sober, hey-hey when I'm drunk
See me reelin', mama, go hide in your trunk

SOLO

The next is a field recording, performed by Unknown.  I wish I knew who had done it, because it is really nice.  It's called "Nobody Knows My Name".  It's a little hard to hear (especially the vocals), but the tuning/position sound is very distinctive.  What do you think it is?

Unknown - Nobody Knows My Name (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC3oSeO0VPk#ws)

The third is Gabriel Brown doing "What Did the Doodle-Bug Say to the Mole".  What tuning/position is Gabriel Brown using for the song?

Gabriel Brown, John & Rochelle French- What Did The Doodle-Bug Say To The Mole? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY7tGSoUYL0#ws)

REFRAIN: Oh it feels so good, oh, it feels so good
Feels pretty fussinin' 'cause it feels so good

Thanks for participating.  Please wait until tomorrow, Wednesday, June 25 to answer the questions.  Thanks!

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on June 25, 2014, 09:39:29 AM
I'll have a stab at "Big Juice Blues" being in DADFAD .
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on June 25, 2014, 01:58:00 PM
Pretty tricky stuff!! Here are my guesses:

Bug Juice Blues: Standard Tuning (whole step down) E Position because of the hammer ons in the bass run (0:16 to 0:19)

Nobody Knows My Name: Standard Tuning (a little flat), F Position (didn't try to find a detail to prove it, just the whole bass run stuff sounds like it)

What Did the Doodle-Bug Say to the Mole: Vestapol at Eflat because of that distinct bIII/III dissonance on the middle strings


Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 25, 2014, 11:19:25 PM
Hi all,
The tunings/position for "Bug Juice Blues" is E position in standard tuning.  DADFAD would fret out exactly the same on the first three strings, but the hammers on the fourth string second fret and fifth string second fret that mr mando cited at :16 to :19 would be possible in E position but not DADFAD because in DADFAD those open strings are at the pitches that are hammered to.
"Nobody Knows My Name" is played out of F position in standard tuning.  I know it is not exactly a technical musical term, but F position always sounds kind of "thumpy" to me, perhaps because it is an altogether closed position for the I chord.  That C7 V chord in F really kind of stands out, too.
"What Did the Doodle-Bug Say to the Mole" is played in Vestapol, and the place in the song that mr mando cited in which the bIII located at the third fret of the fourth string is played simultaneous with the major III on the open third string is a good identifier for Vestapol when it happens.
You got them all spot on, mr mando, well done!
Working through a number of songs in succession in this thread has really brought home to me the extent to which the pitch at which a song sounds, or the key in which it sounds, is virtually irrelevant in making the determination of the tuning/position in which the song is being played.  In fact, for Country Blues, at least, I've come to think of the key in which a song sounds as "the key that the musician sang the song in", as distinct and separate from "the position/tuning the musician played the song in".  This is because the sound characteristics of the different tunings and positions operate independent of the pitch at which they sound.  Next time you're trying to figure out the tuning/position that a musician played a song out of, don't even bother to figure out the key in which the piece sounds, and see if not knowing that makes any difference in your determination of the position/tuning the musician used.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on June 26, 2014, 01:58:45 AM
Thanks johnm for the tips. I will try and find the b111/111 today.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on June 26, 2014, 04:25:36 AM
I really find this thread extremely instructive and would like to thank johnm for starting it and chosing such great study pieces. Only the minority of the recordings I'd heard before, and especially some of the field recordings were completely new to me. Tunes I'd heard before,  like "Bug Juice Blues", showed me that earlier I had not paid a lot of attention to the intricacies of the accompaniment, e.g. when I started to search for the tuning/position, I started with DADFAD before dunplaying posted.

So far, this thread certainly showed me what I'm able to do as long as I pay attention to the details and ornaments (hammmer ons, pull Offs, slides, ringing strings) during repeated listening.

More importantly, I also learned what exactly I could improve when trying to find out tunings/positions, e.g. paying more attention to middle voices in harmonized/chordal passages or considering the possibility of octaves being played.

In this respect, I think johnm's explanations of what's really happening are more than generous and a real benefit for me, so thanks again johnm for your time and effort and hopefully this thread will continue.

I'd also like to encourage everybody who frequents this forum to participate more actively in this here thread and to not be afraid of guessing differently. I was quite off on some of the previous examples, but that didn't hurt at all and just made me want to try harder.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 26, 2014, 05:25:15 AM
As someone who's been totally consistent in my wrongness, can I echo what Mr mando says and thank Johnm for a great thread!

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on June 26, 2014, 04:42:17 PM
What they said!

And congratulations to Mr. Mando for the excellent detective work!
I didn't get to post in time, but I would have gotten only one out of three right, this time!

Which brings us to JohnM's excellent advice: don't look up too much for the absolute key a song seems to be sounding in, when figuring out the guitar part.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on June 29, 2014, 09:22:09 AM
I agree with you chaps . A difficult exercise but well worth the effort. Let 's hope the thread continues.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 11, 2014, 01:05:18 PM
Hi all,
I'm glad that folks who have participated have been enjoying this thread.  I'm not home long enough right now to post a new puzzler, but I will be in about a week.
All best,
johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 20, 2014, 12:39:36 PM
Hi all,
I've been away so much that I haven't had time to post a new song to this thread for almost a month, but I have a little window now and time to post a new puzzler.  The song here is "Trouble", performed by Reese Crenshaw, who also recorded a version of "John Henry" that I put up in the John Henry thread.  I know nothing about Crenshaw in the biographical sense, but wonder if he was recorded at the Fort Valley Folk Festival, since he appears on the same album with Sonny Chestain, who was recorded at that festival.  In any event, here is Reese Crenshaw's recording of "Trouble":     


Reese Crenshaw, Trouble (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT7giv1OVPc#ws)

I have most of Reese Crenshaw's lyrics, and would really appreciate help with the bent-bracketed passages.

Trouble, trouble, been had it all my days
Trouble, trouble, been had it all my days
Lord, I feel like trouble carries me to my grave

If it hadn't-a been for you, partner, wouldn't even been here today
If it hadn't-a been for you, partner, wouldn't even have been here today
Lord, it seem like trouble's always in my face

Said, I walked so hard, babe, 'til I feel it down in my knees
I walked so hard, babe, 'til I feel it down in my knees
Misfortune's in their eyes, never seen "If you please"

Just fall in, brother, take a trip with me
Just fall in, brother, take a trip with me
I'm gonna take you where your troubles gonna let you be

Ain't but one thing, blues, that worry my mind
They ain't but one thing, blues, that worries my mind
Ain't but one thing, blues, worries my mind
They keep me troubled and troubled all the time

I wanta tell you one thing but I want you to understand
I'm gonna tell you thing, but I want you to understand
If that's your gal, I'm gonna take her from your hand

Don't you see here, baby, see what you done done?
Want you see here, baby, see what you done done
Want you to see here, baby, see what you done done
You made me love you, now your man done come

Lord, it's troubles, troubles, troubles, I feel sad
I say it's troubles, troubles, troubles, I feel sad
I woke up this morning, trouble every day

Goin' away, babe, cryin' don't make me stay
Says, I'm goin' away, baby, cryin' don't make me stay
I'm goin' away, baby, cryin' don't make me stay
More you cry, pretty mama, further you drive me away

Now if anybody ask you, people, who composed this song
I says, if anybody ask you, people, who composed this song
Tell 'em cool people's companions, babe, 'as been here and gone

The questions for "Trouble" are:
   * What position/tuning did Reese Crenshaw play the song out of?
   * Where (relative to tuning/capo placement) did he finger the ascending bass run from :50--:52?
   * How does he vary his chord progression starting at 2:34?  What are the three chords he plays before resolving to his I chord?
   * Where does he finger the ascending lick from 3:13--3:15?

As always, please use only your ear, experience and instrument to answer these questions.  Please don't post any answers until Tuesday, July 22, so that lots of people can listen and come up with their own ideas of how Reese Crenshaw played the song.  I hope you have fun with it.

Lyrics edited 7/22 with help from Davek and Johnm

All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on July 22, 2014, 03:40:57 AM
As usual I am baffled but I will take a stab at standard tuning, capo at 2nd fret and played out of a G position.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harvey on July 22, 2014, 07:21:05 AM
No way near touching a guitar this week so I am on very shacky ground. Sounds in spanish to me, I would say capoed up a bit but no way of telling where.

I say spanish because some of the runs sound like Memphis Minnie type runs like on When the Levee breaks.

That was as far as I got I am afraid.

 

Edit was : Mini ! I am blaming Iphone spell checker
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on July 22, 2014, 07:45:19 AM
Funny that you should say that Harvey as I thought it had shades of My Baby by Bo Carter which is in Spanish.
I will go and try again.  :(
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 22, 2014, 11:28:15 AM
I'm on North Uist with no internet connection and dodgy phone reception,, so will have to give this one a miss!

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on July 22, 2014, 04:23:31 PM
As far as the lyrics, at the end of the third verse, I can't make it all out but I am hearing:
Misfortune in your eyes, [   ] if you please

the last verse, it sounds like it might be:
Tell them two people companions, been to here and gone

Dave

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 22, 2014, 05:49:55 PM
Thanks for the help with the lyrics, Dave.  Any other takers for the questions pertaining to how the song is played?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on July 22, 2014, 06:19:24 PM
Hi all

First of all, I?m sorry about not being able to help with the lyrics.

Secondly, I?ll agree with dunplaying about standard tuning, G position, pitched at A. My reasonings are the following; the bass and treble runs, and chord voicings seem to indicate G position in standard, The bass line doesn?t go below the low root note, except for the instance where there?s a chromatic walkdown to the VI chord, which is also typical for the G position in standard, since no low 5th for the I chord is available. There?s a #IVdim7 chord thrown in too, which you usually come across in standard tuning. Also, the I chord seems to have a root note on top, two octaves above the bass, which is common for the G position in standard.

Quote
* Where (relative to tuning/capo placement) did he finger the ascending bass run from :50--:52?

Sounds to me, like the bass run starts at the 5th string, going up chromatically from frets 2,3,4, and to the open 4th string, then the fingering and sequence is repeated on strings 4 and 3.

Quote
* How does he vary his chord progression starting at 2:34?  What are the three chords he plays before resolving to his I chord?

As mentioned above there?s a chromatic walkdown to the open 6th string, followed by a VI7 - II7 - V7 - I progression, fingered something like 0-2-2-1-3-0 (E7), then X-0-2-2-2-3 (A7), to X (0)-0-2-1-2 (D7), to X-X-(0)-0-0-3 (G).

Quote
* Where does he finger the ascending lick from 3:13--3:15?

This sounds like a broken run in thirds, played at the 3rd and 2nd strings; 0-0; to 2-1; to 3-2; to 4-3, lower string mentioned first.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Norfolk Slim on July 23, 2014, 01:03:23 AM
OK. No instrument here but I'm not convinced by g standard because the root sounds like an open bass string to me.  Which leads me to open g given the Minnie type licks that Harvey mentioned. But then the dim cords I know in open g are a movement of the g7 towards the headstock and the one in this tune is higher in pitch than its starting point. Which in turn takes me to A standard, for which I find some support in those lemony licks up the neck.

In short, I don't know. But I'm plumping for A.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 23, 2014, 09:34:03 AM
Hi all,
Thanks to everyone who participated in figuring out the lyrics and the way Reese Crenshaw played his song "Troubles".  Congratulations to dunplaying, who correctly identified the playing position, G position in standard tuning, in the very first response--well done!  Congratulations to Pan, too, who in addition to getting the playing position, answered all of the follow-up questions spot on.  Good hearing, Pan, and good explanations, too!
Simon was right on in noting a Lemon Jefferson influence.  One of the interesting things about Lemon is that on occasion he played licks up the neck that he normally played out of the A position in the G position as well, as in "Got The Blues".  That's what Reese Crenshaw was doing here.  I think one of the most mysterious aspects of Reese Crenshaw's playing on this track is what he was doing in the right hand.  He sounds like he could have been flat-picking, and if he was, he had a very smooth and varied technique that way, being able to move seamlessly from single-string melodic passages to beautifully controlled brush strokes and tricky cross-string moves, like his turn-around in which he walks down the fourth string from the third fret to the open fourth string, alternating up to the open third string between each of the descending notes.  Crenshaw may also have been playing with a thumb pick and fingers, a la Lemon, and perhaps that is a more plausible explanation of what he was doing in the right hand.
One of the other things that struck me about Crenshaw's playing here is how he was a font of ideas--he's still playing licks on the last two verses that he had not previously played in the rendition, and the track is long, 3:35.  That's quite unusual.  Some of his licks I have never heard played before by anyone in the style.  There's a particularly nifty one he starts around :59 where he rocks between a G out of the F shape on the top three strings, 4-3-3 and a D7 on the top three strings, but a very unusual one, arrived at via contrary motion on the first and third strings, 5-3-2, with the third fret of the second string sort of acting as a hinge between the two voicings.  Other unusual aspects of his playing here are that I don't think he plays a single IV chord, C, with the third fret of the fifth string, the low root, in the bass in the entire rendition, and his low root G at the third fret of the sixth string is very de-emphasized.  He hardly hits it at all, and only in passing.
Hearing so many stellar performances recently by musicians who were only field recorded, and never did commercial recordings, has made me realize how shaky it is to set up a hierarchy of skills or pecking order of the various Country Blues musicians who recorded, saying, "This one was the best.", or even "This one was the best at _______."  Hearing the performances of these field recorded musicians who may have recorded only a title or two but who acquitted themselves so admirably on those few recordings, makes me aware of the "tip-of-the-iceberg" quality that so much of their playing had.  Going back in the thread, wouldn't you like to hear more titles from Little Brother, Big Boy, Jesse Wadley, Wallace Chains, Eddie Bowles, and Reese Crenshaw?  Boy, I would--they were as good as anybody out there!
Thanks to all who participated, and I'll post another tune very soon.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on July 23, 2014, 09:56:29 AM
Very well done Pan.
A brilliant answer.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 23, 2014, 10:36:32 AM
Hi all,
Here is another song to work on, Boy Green's "A and B Blues".  I know nothing about Boy Green in the biographical sense, but it looks like he was from the Carolinas probably.  Here is the song:

https://youtu.be/Jy76yXvPSbc

SOLO

Well, these A B Blues, sure is goin' hard with me
Well, these A & B Blues, sure is goin' hard with me
Yes, they sure has got me rockin', like a ship on the stormy sea

Well, it was so many times I had her by my side
So many times I had her by my side
Now, when I speak to her, she won't even smile

I knowed I did wrong, baby, can't you understand?
I knowed I did wrong, can't you understand?
Now, that I could do better, good as any other man

SOLO

You may have some friend, I don't have no friend at all
You may have some friend, I don't have no friend at all
And you won't even answer, baby, when I call

SOLO

The questions about his rendition are:
   * What position/tuning did he play the song out of?
   * Where did he fret his IV chord that falls at :09--:11 in his performance?
   * Where did he finger the little V7-I resolution that falls at :14--:15?
   * Where did he finger the lick he plays at :23--:24?

As usual, use ears and instruments only in figuring out your answers, please.  Please don't post any responses until Friday, July 26 to give lots of people a chance to listen, and thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on July 25, 2014, 04:38:22 AM
 I will try standard tuning ,capo 2nd fret and played out of an E position.
Another good song.

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on July 25, 2014, 09:37:59 AM
I'll vote for E position (I'm away from my guitar so no guess on where pitched).  From the intro, the V7 chord sounds like a typical walk up into B7 also the turnaround in bar 11 sounds like a variation of the common E move.

The activity in the bass in the E and B7 reminds me a lot of some Of Buddy Moss's playing. I wonder if one was influenced by the other. Anyone know the date of this recording?

Thanks,
           Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on July 25, 2014, 12:52:06 PM
I'm agreeing with E with capo on the 2nd fret.  The opening sounds like it's played high up, barred at what would be the 9th fret (with the capo on the second) and playing around E & E7.

The second part of the puzzles been a bit of a scunner.  I think between :9 - :10 it's an open 5th str to the 4th fretted at the 2ndand then open first to the 2nd fretted at the 3rd.  Not got past that as I can't help hearing the D in there, but the IV chord would be a A or A7 right?

The next question: it sounds like he's faffing around the E and B7 positions at the neck.  I was sort of running out of steam here but I think around the :24 mark he's playing around the open E, 2nd str 3rd fret, 3rd str 4th fret and back to the E (3rd str 1st fret, 4th str 2nd fret.

Need a lie down now........
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on July 25, 2014, 01:03:24 PM
What I got for the lick was similar but in all honesty I don't know if it starts on an open 5th or at the second fret. I opted for the second fret,
2f5s,2f4s,0f1s,3f2s,2f2s,0f4s,0f1s
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on July 25, 2014, 01:27:15 PM
Ok, as far as I was able to get was that it is E position, capo at 2, but that assumes he started in standard A440.....

The rest I'll leave to someone who has a guitar working - broke my E string and haven't gotten to Centralia yet...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on July 25, 2014, 09:07:18 PM
I'm late to the Reese Crenshaw party for "Trouble" but just wanted to say what a tune. Thanks for that.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on July 26, 2014, 05:13:55 AM
Hi all

I think I'll agree with dunplaying and everyone on standard tuning, E-position, pitched at F#.

I think Old Man Ned pretty much got the IV chord lick at :09 -:11, except that I think the chord is still ringing, when the next lick starts at the 7th fret on the 1st string. If I'm not imagining this, the previous lick has to be played at the 5th position, to be able to reach that note. Therefore I suggest that the lick starts with the open 5th string; then 5th string 7th fret; followed by 2nd string 5th fret; then 3rd string 7th fret; to 4th string 7th fret; then 3rd string 6th fret; back to the 2nd string 5th fret; and back again to the previous 3rd string 6th fret note. I also think the open 5th string is not ringing throughout, as it could be in the open position, which also suggest the 5th position to me. The fingering is a bit tricky, but you could play the consecutive 7th fret notes on 3rd and 4th strings with your little finger followed by the ring finger; or by playing a partial barr? with your ring finger.

I also agree with Old Man Ned about the E - B7 - E move at :14 - :15. Sounds like he's playing an open low E string; followed by a hammer on from open to the 1st fret of the 3rd string; then hitting the 5th string 2nd fret; then changing to a B7 while retaining the low B note, and playing a triplet on the 4th string 1st fret; open 2nd string; 3rd string 2nd fret; then repeating the hammer on on the 3rd string; then hitting the 4th string 2nd fret.

The lick he plays at :23--:24 sounds like it is  starting with the open 1st string; followed by a triplet starting with the 2nd string 3rd fret, followed by the open 1st string repeated twice; then follwed by a triplet of descending chromatic notes on the 2nd string, 2nd to first to open string; then a triplet starting on the 3rd string 2rd fret, down one fret to the 1st fret, to the 4th string 2nd fret.

I agree with Uncle Bud about the Reese Crenshaw. These field recordings are really something. Makes one wonder again how much talent and great music must have escaped from any recordings!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on July 26, 2014, 09:01:41 AM
Just an aside to compliment this idea.  It's great training for the ear!  I need more of this kind of thing.  Thanks!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 26, 2014, 01:56:22 PM
Hi all,
Thanks for the responses to the questions on Boy Green's "A and B Blues".  For the first time I can recall, every response was in agreement as to the playing position, E position in standard tuning, and every response was correct.  Well done!
As for the questions about specific places in the piece, here goes:  For the IV chord phrase that falls at :09--:11, it is as follows, with pulse indicated as 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +.  The phrase begins with a pick-up note that falls on the + of beat four, coming out of the fourth bar of his opening E phrase:

   +       |     1       +        2        +       3       +        4      +      |
Open       2nd     Open   3rd     Open   6th    5th     7th 
5th         fret,     1st      fret,    5th      fret,  fret,    fret,
string      4th      string  2nd    String  3rd    2nd    4th
   T          string             string            string  string  string,
                  T                             T                          6th
                                                                             fret,
                                                                             3rd
                                                                             string
                                                                             T brush
I've put a T under every part of the phrase that is stuck by the thumb.  You can see he starts with a thumb roll, from the fifth to the fourth string in an A chord at the base of the neck as Old Man Ned had it.  He had the first part of the phrase spot on, and the second half is very close to what Pan had, with the thumb re-hitting the open fifth string on the + of beat 2, and the thumb concluding the measure with a brush stroke of the fourth and third strings on beat four.  It's really neat the way Boy Green shifts from the A position at the base of the neck to the A out of the F shape at the fifth fret half-way through the bar.  The way Boy Green syncopated his thumb work here is operating very much the way Buddy Moss used his thumb, as Scott aptly noted a Buddy Moss sound in Boy Green's playing.
The passage from :14--:15 where he starts in E, rocks briefly to B7 and returns to E is as follows.  Pan mapped this out dead on in his post, but I'll put it here with the exact timing indicated so you can see how the phrase flows through the bar.

 |    1         +              2               +        3 (triplet)                    4              +         |
   Open                  Grace           2nd      1st       Open   2nd     Grace         2nd
   6th                     note            fret,      fret,     2nd     fret,     note           fret,
   string                 hammer,      5th      4th       string   3rd     hammer,     4th
     T                     Open            string    string              string   Open          string
                            3rd string       T           T                             3rd string
                            to 1st fret                                                  to 1st fret
                           3rd string                                                   3rd string
                                T
So it is that Boy Green does an alternation in the bass, on beats one and two from the 6th to the 3rd string, then does a thumb roll in the B7 from the + of beat 2 on the 5th string into beat 3 on the 4th string, starting a triplet that switches from the thumb to the fingers in the right hand after the thumb hits beat three.  The phrase has a tremendous lilt and rhythmic lift to it--wow!

The lick he plays at :23--:24 sits as follows.  I'll include the downbeat of the measure, although it doesn't fall in that time sequence.

   |      1            +          2 (triplet)                        3(triplet)                    4(triplet)               |
       2nd         Open      3rd        Open    Open       2nd    Open    3rd      2nd     1st      2nd       
      fret,         1st          fret,      1st       1st          fret,    2nd      fret,     fret,    fret,    fret,   
       4th         string      2nd       string    string     2nd     string   3rd      3rd     3rd      fourth       
      string,                    string                              string              string   string  string  string
     and open
     6th string
      (T)

Pan had this all right except the beat 3 triplet, where instead over walking down the second string chromatically from the second fret, Boy Green skips the first fret of the second string, which gives him time to pick up the b5 note at the 3rd fret of the third string on the last note of the triplet, a grungy sound that really gives a nice oink in the middle of the run.  I was only able to piece together this run by trying it out on the guitar--it goes by pretty quickly!

As mentioned earlier, Boy Green's playing on "A and B Blues" appears to show a Buddy Moss influence.  Another player whose approach seems even closer to Boy Green's is Ralph Willis.  I'm attaching an .mp3 of his song "Just A Note".  Check out what he plays from :08--:09; it is very, very close to Boy Green's I-V7-I turn-around at :14--:15, and there are other similarities in the course of the two performances.

Boy Green was obviously a really accomplished player, as were Buddy Moss and Ralph Willis, but one thing that strikes me about these moves is that with the exception of the A phrase where he shifts positions half-way through the bar, these licks are models of economy.  In the E-B7-E lick, he never ventures above the second fret, and in the concluding E phrase, he never ventures above the third fret.  For that last E phrase, if you assign a finger to a fret, using the index finger to fret everything on the first fret, the second finger to fret everything on the second fret and the third finger to fret everything on the third fret, it actually lays out pretty easily and naturally, despite the speed at which he plays it.

Thanks, as always, for participating.  I think this kind of close listening is hugely beneficial in terms of hearing how different players got around on the guitar and used their hands.  And if you understand how they did it, you can figure out how to do it yourself.  Like every faculty, this kind of listening, hearing and analyzing sharpens with use, too.  Onward and upward!

All best,
Johnm         
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on July 26, 2014, 06:02:30 PM
Thanks for the analysis and the Ralph Willis mp3, John!

I'm hoping that I (and others) will now instantly recognize the E - B7 -E lick, when I (we) hear it!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on July 27, 2014, 03:45:47 AM
Thanks Johnm.
I have been working on the E-B7-E lick all morning. :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 27, 2014, 08:11:40 AM
I'm glad you're having fun with that lick, Pan and dunplaying, and you're welcome for the thread, One-Eyed Ross.  It has been fun picking out the tunes and I've heard a lot of music I'd not heard previously--great players, too.

Here are a couple of pretty much straight position/tuning puzzles.  The first is of a Post-War Detroit player, Johnny Howard, and his song is "Natural Man Blues".  Here it is:

Johnny Howard - Natural Man Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXUt5UcvAYw#)

Well, the sun is goin' down, and the moon begin to rise
I said, baby, the sun is goin' down, and the moon begin to rise
Well, you wake up in the mornin', and the sun rises in the east

I'm gon' do just like the eagle, I'm gon' rise and view the sun
Yes, I'm gon' do like the eagle, babe, I'm gon' rise and view the sun
I can look down into your heart, and tell ev'ything goin' on

SOLO

Yes, I want you, I don't wan-a you's do me, baby, do me like 'lilah did Samiston {sic}
No, I don't want you to do me, baby, just like Delilah did Samiston {sic}
Tame my head, clean as my hand, my strength come as a natch'l man

SOLO

The questions for "Natural Man Blues" are:
   * What tuning/position did Johnny Howard play the song out of?
   * Where is he fretting the opening of his solo, at 1:28--1:34, and how does he get the texture he gets in the treble there?

The second song is Sylvester Cotton's "I Tried".  Like Johnny Howard, Cotton was a Post-Wat Detroit player.  So much strong music came out of Detroit in that period.  Here is the song:

Sylvester Cotton- I Tried (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTGMiwOK5YA#)

In the transcription, dashes indicate places the guitar finished the vocal line.

Now listen, all you friends, you'll hear the record I made
Remember this one thing, Lord, I did everything I could
Don't thank me, friends, just think on the one man,
Mr. Broony Bethune

That was the first man that give me my chance
Name of the place was Pan-American Record Company
Lord, I tried, I tried to do
The best I can

I'm sorry I couldn't play the piece you like best
I had to play the blues, Lord, that's the first thing I know
But I tried, I tried to do
The best I can

If you people'd understand, every man have to crawl
Every baby has to crawl, Lord, before he walks
I tried, Lord, I tried to do
The best I can

SOLO (Spoken: For Mr. Broony now)

Say hey, let me tell you something, friends
Lord, you don't know how good it's settin' a poor Mac
Lord, Lord, when you're tryin', when you're tryin' to do
The ----

Says, now you watch out the, whether when the man says,
"Now, and it's time for you to cut your boys off."
The Mr. says, "You tried, Lord, you tried to do
The ---."

I want you to excuse all the mistake in this song
Lord, 'cause this is the last one I'll every play, maybe,
But I'll try, Lord, I'll try to do
The best I can

So long, I got to go
Lord, 'cause somebody waitin' on me, don't 'round here
But I try, Lord, I try to do
The best I can

What position/tuning did Sylvester Cotton play "I Tried" out of?

The third song is Lucious Curtis' "Guitar Picking Song".  Curtis was recorded in Natchez, Mississippi for the Library of Congress.  Here is the tune:

https://youtu.be/xqYsyJEFYl8

What position/tuning did Lucious Curtis play "Guitar Picking Song" out of?

As always, please use only your ears, experience and guitar to figure out the answers to the questions, no transcription software.  Please don't post any answers to the questions until Tuesday, July 29th, so that plenty of people have a chance to listen to the song and make their own determination of the answers.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dunplaying on July 29, 2014, 02:41:14 AM
When I first heard "Natural Man" I thought Johnm had thrown in a duff track but ,after listening to it for several hours, I have grown to like it. I am still unsure as to how it is played but will try standard tuning,capo 4th and played from an E position.
Sylvester Cotton's "I tried" is ,I hope, standard tuning,capo 2nd and played out of an A position.
I am afraid I cannot even hazard a guess for the third track.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on July 29, 2014, 03:57:02 AM
Back from my vacation, I'm glad I didn't miss too much in this thread.

Here's what I hear for the current puzzle:

Johnny Howard - Natural Man Blues:
   * What tuning/position did Johnny Howard play the song out of? standard tuning  / E position at G# He accidentially hits open strings with the bass notes sometimes that are not available in an open tuning and that are sounding in dissonance with the tonality he's working in.
   * Where is he fretting the opening of his solo, at 1:28--1:34, and how does he get the texture he gets in the treble there? On the second string at frets (relative to the capo) 5 and 8 (bent) against the open first string.

Sylvester Cotton- I Tried:
   * position/tuning: Spanish Tuning @ (+/-) Bflat

Lucious Curtis - Guitar Picking Song:
   * position/tuning: standard tuning / D position
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 29, 2014, 03:22:04 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for "Natural Man Blues", "I Tried" and "Guitar Picking Song"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on July 29, 2014, 04:51:57 PM
Hi all

For some reason these were really difficult for me ?so I'm not sure at all, if I got them right.

Nevertheless, I'll stick my head out and make some guesses.

Quote
The questions for "Natural Man Blues" are:
   * What tuning/position did Johnny Howard play the song out of?
   * Where is he fretting the opening of his solo, at 1:28--1:34, and how does he get the texture he gets in the treble there?

I disagree with standard tuning E position here, because I hear a low V note played on the 6th string which isn't available in E,  because the lowest string is the root. I couldn't make any open tuning work either, so my best guess is that the song is played in standard tuning, A position, tuned about a half-step low.
The solo seems to start in triplets, with the low open 6th string , while the second string is played on the 10th fret, slid in, then the open 1st string is played too, so that all the three notes are ringing. The second string is then changed to a note bent up roughly a half step from the 13th fret, while the 6th and 1st strings remain open.

Quote
What position/tuning did Sylvester Cotton play "I Tried" out of?

Again, this was difficult for me. I seem to hear most of the treble licks doable in standard tuning, G-position. But again, the bass licks go down to the low V note which isn't available in Standard G. So I'm guessing the D-G-D-G-B-E or ?half-spanish? or G6 tuning, which would solve the problem.

Quote
What position/tuning did Lucious Curtis play "Guitar Picking Song" out of?

With the Lucious Curtis tune, I think the bass goes down to low D, so I'll say dropped D, while I agree with Mr. Mando, that the rest of the song sounds like it's played in D-position. The IV chord also seems to have the 3rd on bass, which is common in dropped D, while the root of the IV chord (G) is moved up two frets on the 6th string, and is difficult to reach for. I think I'm hearing some similar chords to Curtis' "High Lonesome Hill", which I believe is (in what I believe is his guitar part) in dropped D.

Looking forward to the verdict!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on July 29, 2014, 06:15:35 PM
I'm with Pan (though working without a guitar, only banjo at hand). I'm guessing A position tuned low for Natural Man Blues. Half Spanish seems reasonable for I Tried, with the bass notes I think I am hearing. Then Dropped D for the Lucious Curtis (I also hear echoes of High Lonesome Hill).
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Norfolk Slim on July 29, 2014, 11:25:53 PM
I had a, tuned two steps low for the first one. As pan did and for the same reason; that low pickup note which sounds at d.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 30, 2014, 04:20:45 PM
Hi all,
Thanks for participating to those of you who posted.  For the first song, Johnny Howard's "Natural Man Blues", it was played out of A position in standard, tuned a half-step low, as Pan, uncle bud and norfolk slim had it.  One thing that makes that identification more difficult than it would normally be is that Johnny Howard free-hands everything at the base of the neck--he never once plays a I chord, per se, down there.  Pan nailed what he did for the solo section in question:  he fretted his melody on the second string, moving from the 10th fret up to a bent thirteenth fret back to the 10th fret, all the while also brushing the open first string along with the second string.  That strange disembodied sound of the open first string makes for a really interesting timbre.  This approach was also a favorite of Jesse Thomas, who particularly utilized it on his Post-War recordings, but did it with full chords, not just a moving line.  It's really an exotic sound, and I think has been under-utilized.

I agree that the Sylvester Cotton identification for "I Tried"  is a tough one.  My original inclination was that he played it out of Spanish, but after reading the responses, I went back and listened, and there is one sound, in particular, that he gets that is much easier to get out of the DGDGBE tuning that Pan and uncle bud selected than it would be in Spanish.  It's a droney sound on the first three strings where he is sounding the root of the I chord on the third string, a V note on the second string and a high root on the first string.  In DGDGBE, that sits at 0-3-3 on the top three strings; in Spanish at a comparatively more awkward 0-3-5.  I was ready to opt for DGDGBE until I noticed a place in his solo at 1:42--1:43 where he goes from a fretted V note to an open V note back to a fretted V note in the treble.  That move is really only plausible in Spanish, where it would involve going from the third fret of the second string to the open first string back to the third fret of the second string.  In DGDGBE, the same move wouldn't work because the first string is tuned to a VI note.  So it is that Sylvester Cotton played "I Tried" in Spanish.
Lucious Curtis's "Guitar Picking Song" is flat-picked, I believe, out of D position in standard tuning.  I never hear a low root of the I chord on the sixth string, which you would have in dropped-D tuning in the song, nor do I hear a low root of the I chord on the sixth string in "High Lonesome Hill", which I also believe to be played by the lead guitarist out of D position in standard tuning.  I noticed that Curtis' "Guitar Picking Song" bears a real resemblance to Mance Lipscomb's "Boogie in A", too.

These tunes ended up being more difficult than I thought they would be when I selected them.  Just as an unrelated aside, I am particularly enjoying a lot of the Post-War blues from in and around Detroit lately.  It's some of my very favorite Post-War blues.  Apart from the big names, John Lee Hooker and Dr. Ross, you also have Calvin Frazier, Andrew Dunham, Sylvester Cotton, Johnny Howard and others--whew!

Thanks to all who participated and I will try to post another puzzler in the next couple of days.  Port Townsend has been really fun thus far.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 31, 2014, 03:38:15 PM
Hi all,
After yesterday's post, I realized something that I've never said in this thread but probably should have, and that is that if after my explanation of the answers to playing position/tuning questions and questions as to where particular passages are played on the guitar, you're convinced I got the answer or answers to my own questions wrong, I hope you'll express your doubts.  I've been wrong before and I'm sure I'll be wrong again, and don't mind being corrected when I'm wrong, or questioned when I've expressed something with inadequate clarity, so please let me know if either of those things has happened, as you hear it.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on August 01, 2014, 07:35:04 AM
Thanks again for the examples and analysis John! Much appreciated, as always.

I especially appreciated your explanation about the unison V note between the 2nd and open 1st string, which clearly puts Sylvester Cotton's "I Tried" in Spanish tuning. Never would I have caught that detail!

I would most respectfully ask, that you would, when time and means permit (I know you must be quite busy at Port Townsend), listen again closely to Lucious Curtis' "Guitar Picking Song", especially to the verse that starts around :31.
I seem to hear a sort of call and response thing, where a lick played on the treble strings, is responded to, on the bass strings. No matter how many times I've listened to it, it sounds to me, like the bass response licks end to a low tuned D note on the 6th string! I could be wrong, of course, it wouldn't be the 1st time I hear things in a wrong octave or mess them up otherwise!

By the way, I completely agree with you, in that Curtis never plays the low D note on the I chord, which would, of course, be very unusual, because that's usually the whole point in tuning to Dropped D! And the fact that he would wait until halfway to the  song, before playing the low D must seem implausible too.

But to my ears, it sounds that Curtis might have a habit of doing this, because I hear a bass lick ending to a low open D note in bar 11 of the form, in "High Lonesome Hill" too, a song where he, as you say, never plays the low D on the I chord either. The lick could be played by Willie Ford also, but it sounds to me like it's done by the lead guitarist, who's playing resembles that of Curtis' on "The Guitar Pickin' Song".

I'll add the YouTube link to "High Lonesome Hill" here too.

Please let me know what you think, and most of all, have a wonderful time at PT.

Willie Ford & Lucious Curtis - High Lonesome Hill.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Ij4SF7bGA#)

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 02, 2014, 07:56:01 AM
Thanks very much for your points re the Lucious Curtis songs, Pan!  I'm not currently in a situation where I can do the kind of close listening that is required, but I'll be returning home tomorrow and will give both "Guitar Picking Song" and "High Lonesome Hill" very close listens and will report back then. 
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 03, 2014, 10:34:04 AM
Hi Pan,
I finally got a chance to re-listen to Lucious Curtis's "Guitar Picking Song" and "High Lonesome Hill", and never heard a low D note in them anywhere.  In "Guitar Picking Song", the first time he goes to the IV chord, he hits a G note on the sixth string and a "chang" of a G chord fingered as per normal in the treble.  In dropped D, that G note would be at the fifth fret of the sixth string and would be awkward, though not impossible, to access.  In his main bass lick in the song, in which he echos the motif he plays over the I chord when he goes to the IV chord, he first plays from F to F# on the sixth string resolves to the open A string and then strums a D chord in the treble.  In D position in standard tuning, that F and F# live at the first and second frets of the sixth string, respectively.  Against the G chord, he goes from Bb to B on the fifth string, resolving up to the open D string, followed by a strum of the G chord in the treble.  The Bb and B notes on the fifth string live at the first and second frets of the fifth string, exactly where the analogous notes in the D chord lay on the sixth string in standard tuning.  In dropped D, the F to F# movement would be from the third to fourth fret of the sixth string, making a different move for the I and IV chords, and something that is considerably less hand-friendly and intuitive in the left hand.  The only time I hear Lucious Curtis playing a note lower than F natural on the sixth string in "Guitar Picking Song" happens around :48--:53 when he does a strum in the treble of 10-8 on the first two strings, followed by a brush stroke of the sixth and fifth strings open.  I can barely hear the sixth string there, but what I'm hearing is E-A on those two strings rather than D-A.
In "High Lonesome Hill", his signature lick in the eleventh bar is like so, I believe:

    1      +      2                  +        3                 +                  4              +                1
  |      Open  3rd      2nd    Open   3rd           Open              Slide,           Open   |    Open
         4th     fret,   fret,     5th      fret,         5th                 1st to          5th            4th 
        string  5th     5th     string   6th           string             2nd fret,      string        string
                  string  string            string                              6th string

The lick would not be impossible to play in dropped-D, but since he never hits that note in the course of playing the lick, and it fingers so much easier in D position, standard tuning, that seems the more likely choice. 
Also, consider the boogie bass figure he plays over the IV chord.  In D position, standard tuning, it lies right under the hand in G.  In dropped D, starting from the fifth fret of the sixth string, it seems a less likely move.
I guess my primary reason, though, for thinking he played the songs out of D position in standard tuning is that I never once hear a low D note on the sixth string (relative to the pitch at which the renditions sound).  Everything I do hear is more easily executed and lies more naturally in D position in standard tuning, too, so I'd be inclined to stick with that identification.  Thanks for bringing it up and giving me a good reason to listen harder than I had previously, Pan.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on August 03, 2014, 11:41:37 AM
Thanks again for your insight and analysis, John, and sorry if I sent you on a wild goose chase with my mishearings!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 04, 2014, 02:00:02 PM
Hi all,
I've got another puzzler for you.  It is "Tampa Blues", as performed by Skoodle Dum Doo and Sheffield, originally released on the Regis label in 1943.  The duo performed it with guitar and harmonica, and I absolutely love their time and rhythmic feel; this is one of my favorite guitar/harmonica pairings I've ever heard.  The Document CD's notes presume that "Skoodle Dum Doo" was a performance monicker for Seth Richards, who had recorded a song of that title more than a decade prior to this recording being made.  Musically, I would say it is exceedingly unlikely that Seth Richards appeared on this recording, because based on his two early titles, he sounds to be of an altogether different musical generation than these players, with a completely different sense of timing and rhythmic feel.  For our purposes here, though, I suppose that is not really under consideration.  Here is the song:

https://youtu.be/WR5mSEjqIIg


The questions with regard to "Tampa Blues" are:
   * What tuning/position did the guitarist play his part out of?
   * What is the form of the song?  That is, working in 4-bar phrases, please describe the chord progression and where chords change, using either the key of the playing position relative to capo placement or numerical designations for the chords.
   * In the solo that starts around :47--:56, the guitarist drops out his bass, going for a bent and released note in the treble and two slightly lower-pitched notes in the treble.  Where are the three treble notes in this portion of the solo fretted?

As always, answer as few or as many of these questions as you wish, using only your ears and your musical instrument and experience to arrive at your answers.  Please wait until Wednesday, August 6 to start posting your answers so that plenty of people have a chance to listen to the track and come up with their own solutions.  This is such a terrific tune, and I've never heard it covered.  I'd love to hear some of you doing it the next time I see you.

All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on August 04, 2014, 03:41:21 PM
What a great track :) Here's what I've got for the lyric. Not sure about 'drop' in 1.2


Don't you never take a woman, well to be your friend
She'll lead you from the jailhouse drop you somewhere's in the pen
yo'll be there grieving tell you what they want to do
wait for you're in Tampo,
Sitting down

Well a woman she's a peculiar thing, her mind always in the wrong
Make no difference where their husbands go, she haven't got no business knowing
And I've got a ticket, I tell you what I' believe I'll do
I'll beat it on back to Tampo
and sit down

Hey now mr conductor can a broke man ride the blind
You better get your ticket, John, well-a you know this train ain't mine
Well since I've got a ticket I tell you what I believe I'll do
I'll ride this train to Tampo
and get down

edited as per Johnm's correction
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 04, 2014, 04:13:04 PM
Good on you, Gumbo, for coming up with that so quickly!  I think "drop" is right on the money.  I think "Penn" in this instance should probably be "pen' ", since it is short for penitentiary.  Isn't that a rocking tune?
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on August 04, 2014, 04:34:12 PM
Rockin' is right. I'm looking forward to being able to play it - it's a perfect one to practice when my ex comes to visit.  :D
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on August 05, 2014, 10:21:29 AM
Paul Brown and Mike Seeger do a version of this on their album "Way Down in North Carolina." I couldn't find it on YouTube unfortunately. It's called "Down to Tampa" and has lead banjo and vocal by Paul Brown. Great version with a very different feel than this version but it's definitely the same song.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 06, 2014, 08:03:35 AM
Thanks for that information on the Paul Brown/Mike Seeger version, Chris.  I've realized I'm very weak on what Mike Seeger did in his post-NLCR years and need to seek out more of his recordings, as well as Paul's.
Any takers on Skoodle Dum Doo and Sheffield's "Tampa Blues"?  Come one, come all, and put your ears to use!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on August 06, 2014, 08:29:04 AM
That record with Paul Brown is an excellent one, John. If you don't have it I'd also recommend the last NLCR album, "There Ain't No Way Out," which was recorded in the '90s sometime.

And from the brief one listen to this version of "Tampa," I would say he's playing out of A position, standard tuning.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 06, 2014, 08:57:00 AM
For the Tampa Blues I?m going to say A position a half step up or capoed at the first fret. The structure and chords go something like:

A                                             D       
Don't you never take a woman, well to be your friend

A                                                    E7
She'll lead you from the jailhouse drop you somewhere's in the pen

A                                D
you'll be there grieving tell you what they want to do

Adim                               (E)
wait for you're in Tampo,

A
Sitting down

With the capo at the third fret it sounds like the treble notes played are a first string bend at the ninth fret down to first string 6th fret and second string 8th fret back to first string at 6th fret.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on August 06, 2014, 09:53:25 AM
I was thinking it is open G (DGDGBD) capo'd at the 3rd. I can't get it to sound right in standard.
the solo at 47s plays well in a D shape at the 7th fret.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Norfolk Slim on August 06, 2014, 01:14:59 PM
Im with scratchy.  A position, half a note sharp.  The intervals shout "long a shape" at me, and the V chord has a lower bass note than the I and IV suggesting an E shape V chord.

I'll give the other questions a go if I get the chance later this evening!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on August 06, 2014, 03:16:19 PM
No guitar at hand but I'll vote for A position.

In the 16 bar form the V chord in measures 7,8, and 14 sound like they drop in pitch to E position.

The bass activity in bar 15 and 16 over the I chord sound similar to what Blind Boy Fuller plays over the A chord at the beginning of the verses to Untrue Blues.

The biggest reinforcement of A to me was in the verse starting at 1:55, in bar 5 and 6 over the I chord (at about 2:00) there is the telltale sliding barre move from fret 1 sliding into fret 2.

Bars 1 and 2 in most of the verses sound consistent with the long A shape over the I chord.

I'm less sure what is happening in bars 3 and 4 although it sounds like maybe starting in D then leaving the ring finger in place on string 2 fret 3 and reaching back with the index finger to get the first fret first string...pure speculation on that as I don't have a guitar to test it on right now.

Thanks,
           Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on August 06, 2014, 04:49:08 PM
Hi all

Seems like the heavy lifting is already done, so I'll agree with Banjochris, Professor Scratchy, Norfolk Slim and ScottN on A-position standard tuning, pitched at around B flat.

I think ScottN makes an excellent point with the similarity to Blind Boy Fuller and his "Untrue Blues".

Professor Scratchy mentions an A diminished chord, which falls to bar 13, if I'm not mistaken. At first I too thought of a diminished chord, but listening again, I'm going to suggest a partial D9 chord with the third (F#) on bass: X-X-4-5-5-5. Note that this has just one note different from the diminished chord that the Professor suggested.

What happens next on the form is a little difficult to describe in terms of chords, since on bar 14 there are only the single string notes open E on the 1st string, and then D on the 3rd fret of the 2nd string, followed by a slightly bent C note on the 3rd fret of the 5th string. Some might hear the E and D note belonging to the E7 chord played earlier on the form, but since no low E, or the chord's major 3rd G# are present, it leaves room for interpretation, especially since the following C note doesn't belong to the E7 chord either. I'll just interpret the last three bars of the form as riffing a minor pentatonic scale over the I chord, but someone else might hear a V7 chord in there as well, and I wouldn't call him or her being wrong.

So for the song form, I hear 16 bars, divided into two 8 bar sections, starting similarly, but with  two different endings, something like this:

|| I | I7 | IV7 | IV7 |

| I | I7 | V7 | V7 ||

|| I | I7 | IV7 | IV7 |

| IV9/3 | I | I | I ||

I think the notes starting the solo are a bend starting at the7th fret on the 1st string, bent up a half step, and then released, the the 5th fret of the 1st string, and the 7th fret of the 2nd string.

Hope I'm more in the ballpark this time!

Cheers

Pan





Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 07, 2014, 09:51:47 AM
Hi all,
Here is what I believe is happening in Skoodle Dum Doo and Sheffield's recording of "Tampa Blues".  The guitarist is playing out of A position in standard tuning, as many of you identified it.  The two sounds that most clearly indicate that identification for me are the sound of the IV chord, with the thumb wrap at the second fret of the sixth string and the D7 fingered on the top three strings at 2-1-2, and the place in the course of the song where the guitarist does a series of syncopated slides with his index partial barre, from the first fret to the second fret on the fourth, third and second strings.
The form is pretty much exactly as Prof Scratchy and Pan had it, a really neat 16-bar blues variant.  I would have it as:

   |    A    |    A(7)    |    D7    |    D7    |

   |    A    |     A       |    E7    |    E7     |

   |    A    |    A(7)    |    D7   |    D7     |

   | Adim7/D9over F#/D7overF#|  E7   |    A    |    A    |

The reason the analysis is hedged in the thirteenth bar is that despite repeated listenings, I have not been able to hear with any certainty what note he plays on the second string there.  I can hear the fourth, third and first strings perfectly clearly, but I sure can't hear the second string.  I think the guitarist is brushing the fourth and third strings with his thumb and picking the first string with his index finger and giving the second string a pass.  In any event, Prof Scratchy's A dim7 would be fretted 4-5-4-5 and is a sound familiar from many Blind Boy Fuller and Rev. Davis songs in A, Pan's D9/F#, 4-5-5-5 is perhaps more rarely encountered, but is a more highly colored D7 chord essentially, and the D7/F# is what I always think of as the Funny Papa Smith chord, 4-5-3-5, a sort of more monochromatic version of Pan's chord.  You can see that all of these choices share the same notes on the fourth, third and first strings, and they are all usable in the context.  In terms of your own playing of the song, I'd say try them all and pick the one you like the sound of best.
I have the 14th bar as an E7, despite there not being an E note in the bass or a G#, the third of the E7 chord as Pan noted, because on most passes through the form the guitarist hits a B note, the fifth of the E7 chord, at the second fret of the fifth string on the downbeat of that measure. He goes quickly from there to an open fifth string, bouncing up to a syncopated third fret of the fifth string.  You can hear this move especially well in the solo at 1:51--1:52.  I think I'd also go for the E7 in the 14th bar because in the verse that follows that solo the guitarist omits the chord he normally plays in the thirteenth bar and simply plays two bars of E7.  I believe he also does this on his last pass through the form.  Plus he doesn't really resolve to a I chord with its root in the bass until the fifteenth bar.
The three notes he plays up the neck in the first solo when he drops the bass out are exactly as Pan had them mapped out, 7th fret of the first string, bent and released, 5th fret of the first string and seventh fret of the second string.  I think Prof Scratchy may have had the same notes, but using the nut as the frame of reference rather than the capo.
I sure do like Skoodle Dum Doo and Sheffield.  I was able to pick up the Document CD at Port Townsend that contains their four cuts, and they also did a terrific and very original cover of Blind Lemon's "One Dime Blues".  I'll see if I can find it on youtube, and if it is there, I'll post it in the "Great Covers" thread.
I feel like people really heard "Tampa Blues" well, and obviously Prof Scratchy and Pan were right on the case.  I hope more folks will find the time to post answers to the more specific questions on how a song was played.  What's the worst that could happen--you listen to a great performance a bunch of times!  Thanks for your participation.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 08, 2014, 09:40:59 AM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The piece is "Sometimes I Wonder", a field recording credited to Rob LeRoy.  The piece is obviously a duet, and the tonal quality of the higher guitar, especially, is really odd, as though it were under water.  The duo has a really cool sound, though, and a lot of what the higher guitarist plays is inventive and new to me.  Something about the singer's voice and delivery reminds me of Geoff Muldaur.  NOTE:  Lastfirstface later in this thread identified the two musicians who perform this duet as Leroy Campbell and Robert (Yancey) Sanders.

https://youtu.be/m8FOkQvMpWc

SOLO X 2

Look who's runnin' around, baby, you don't love me
Baby's let my money down
REFRAIN: Baby, that's all right, yeah, mama, that's all right
Sometime I begin to worry, who's lovin' my baby tonight

Says, look-a-here, mama, see what you done done
Done caused me to love you, now your man done come
REFRAIN: Baby, that's all right, yeah, mama, that's all right
Sometimes I begin to cry, who's lovin' my baby tonight

Baby, you goin' 'round here, with your mouth poked out
Baby, you don't know what love is all about
REFRAIN: Baby, that's all right, yeah, mama, that's all right
Sometime I begin to worry, who's lovin' my baby tonight

SOLO X 2


The questions are:
   * What positions are the two guitarists playing out of?  Hint: They're both playing out of the same position.
   * At :08, you can hear the higher guitarist slide a position up the neck on the top three strings.  Where does the slide end up on those three strings?
   * Where does the higher guitarist fret the fill that is played at :19-:20 over the IV chord?
   * Where does the higher guitarist fret the fill that is played at :27-:30, where the form goes to the V chord?

Answer as many of the questions as you wish, using only your ears and instruments to figure out the answers, please.  Please wait until tomorrow, Saturday, August 9 to post your answers.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 08, 2014, 03:19:06 PM
Hi all,
An additional hint:  Since both players are playing out of the same position, if the higher guitarist seems really difficult to suss out in terms of position/tuning, try figuring out the playing position of the second guitarist, which might be easier to hear and figure out.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on August 09, 2014, 08:32:24 AM
Oh, this is tricky...I think I have it partly figured out, but still working it out.  Figuring out what key it is in was easy, and I think I have position, but I'll wait a few days to make sure (I have to go take care of the chickens and all right now)....

Great tune, by the way.  I love the field recordings...

OK, back from chores, so here's my stab at this (Please remember, guys, I'm new at this type of thing, so give me a break)...

a.  E, Vestapol, ( I tuned to D and capo at 2 to get E).

b.  The slide (to my uneducated ear) ends at 12th fret

c and d I will leave to better ears than mine.  I have difficulty getting the two guitars apart, c sounds like at the 5th fret, strings 2-4, but....that could be the lower guitar, so I dunno...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 09, 2014, 02:51:37 PM
OK - for this one I?m going to say E position in standard tuning. The second guitarist slides up to a long A shape E chord at the ninth fret, with his pinky covering the first and second strings at the twelfth.

For the fill at .19/.20 the second guitarist plays a bent A7th G note at the third fret of the first string, then first string open, then second string second fret, then first string open, then the bent G note on the first string twice, then the open first string again, ending up on the second fret of the second string.

For the fill at  .27 to .30 it sounds to me like the second guitarist is just playing third string second fret, second string open, first string second fret and slightly bending this whole abbreviated V chord.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 09, 2014, 04:51:45 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for Rob LeRoy's "Sometimes I Wonder"?  I'll have to post the answers tonight since I won't be available to do it for a bit.  Come one, come all and get your licks in.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 09, 2014, 10:27:46 PM
Hi all
Well, it looks like Ross and Scratchy are the only takers for Rob LeRoy's "Sometimes I Wonder".  Here are the answers to the questions about the song:
   * Both guitars were played out of E position in standard tuning
   * When the higher guitarist does the slide up on the first three strings at :08, he ends up at
13-12-12 on the first three strings (from third string to first), like the top of an F chord moved up eleven frets.  He moves that shape down a fret and back up, intact, a couple of times and then reaches up to get the fifteenth fret of the first string.  The sound of those three strings fretted at 13-12-12 in E position standard tuning is exactly the same as what Ross proposed, a barre at the twelfth fret in Vestapol.  The long A shape that Prof. Scratchy proposed, with a barre across the top four strings at the ninth fret and the 12th fret of the first string is what the higher guitarist starts the song in, going from there to an A7 shape on the top four strings, 9-9-9-10, before going into the position that he slides up.
   * The phrase that the higher guitarist plays over the IV chord sits in the measure is is played like so, starting the phrase on the + of beat 1:

   1          +          2                   +          3          +          4          +
             8th        5th     6th      5th      bent                  5th
             fret,      fret,     fret,     fret,     8th                    fret,
             2nd      1st       1st      1st       fret,                   2nd
            string    and      string,  and      2nd                   and
                        2nd       5th      2nd     string                3rd
                        strings,  fret,    strings,                         strings
                        6th        2nd    6th
                        fret,      string,  fret,
                        3rd       6th      3rd
                       string    fret,      string
                                   3rd
                                   string
Once again, the higher guitarist is working out of an F shape on the first three strings, with his basic shape there being 6-5-5, going from the third string to the first.  He dabs his little finger down to get the 8th fret of the second string, only when he plays that note; otherwise he lifts it instantly.  Because of the way he ends the phrase, he probably barred the first three strings at the fifth fret with his index finger, used his second finger to fret the sixth fret of the third string, and used his third, or ring finger to fret the sixth fret of the first string where that comes in, in between beat 2 and the + of beat 2.  That sixth fret of the first string is really a rasty note in an E blues, Bb, a bV note relative to E and a b9 note relative to the A chord it sounds against.  It sure stood out when I first heard it.
   * The phrase the higher guitarist plays from :27-:30 against the V chord works like this.  As with the phrase against the IV chord, he starts it on the + of beat 1, which give it a strong counter-punching sort of feel.

   1          +          2            +          3          +          4          +
             10th     7th          10th      7th      10th      7th
             fret,      fret,         fret,      fret,      fret,       fret,
            2nd        first         2nd       first      2nd       first
            string,    three       string,   three    string,   three
            7th        strings     7th       strings  8th        strings
            fret,                      fret,                  fret,
            3rd                       3rd                    3rd
           string                    string                 string

Once again, the higher guitarist is working out of an F shape on the first three strings, but this time, an F minor shape.  He used his index to barre the first three strings at the seventh fret, dabs his little finger down only to sound the 10th fret of the second string where it comes in on the + of beats, and really gives the phrase an inside out sound by using his second finger to fret the 8th fret of the third string on the + of beat three.  So it is that he winds up with the following variations of his V chord, mapped out against the pulse:

     1          +          2          +          3          +          4          +
               Bm7      Bm       Bm7     Bm       B7        Bm

Have you ever heard anybody else play a lick that sounds like this in the Country Blues?  Me neither!  When I first heard this tune about a month or five weeks ago, I had to listen to it four or five times before I could get to the place where I could start to take it in.  I would love to know more about the two musicians who were recorded doing this piece, because they have about as close to an altogether different sound as it is possible to get in this music.  And the way that the higher guitarist utilized that partial of the F shape on the first three strings for his I, IV and V chord, up and down the neck, is not something I've ever encountered before.
Good on you, One-Eyed Ross and Prof Scratchy for getting in on this one, because it is really one for the books.  I considered not posting it, just because it is so singular, but I thought folks should hear it.  Thanks guys, for your participation, and I'll post another puzzler when I get back.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 10, 2014, 02:37:50 AM
Phew! That is indeed a strange one! Like Ross, I first of all thought I was hearing a bottleneck on this one. Like most of these, the solution winds up being very simple and very complicated at the same time.

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on August 10, 2014, 04:35:24 AM
I had the positions  but also went for the long A at the 9th. Now I'm trying to get my head around the rest of it. Thanks Johnm. Even if I don't get to comment on time it's great to get my brain working after the fact.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: orvillej on August 10, 2014, 10:12:39 AM
This is a really interesting piece, not only for the music, but also the very reverberant sound quality. Sounds like they recorded those guitars in a cathedral!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 10, 2014, 11:46:49 AM
Yeah, this was a weird piece. Never heard anything like it before.  Only just got chance to have a listen to this tonight and spent all of 5 minutes on it but was in agreement with Prof Scratchy for the first part of the puzzle before skipping to John's answer for the other parts (it's been a long day....)....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on August 12, 2014, 05:51:08 AM
The big mystery to me is, where is this track from? It's not on Document DOCD-5621, despite the cover of that disc being used to illustrate the clip. And it's not pre-war -- it's a version of "That's All Right", which was a hit for Jimmy Rogers when he recorded it for Chess in 1950 (although it had been around since 1947 when Othum Brown made fairly much the same song as "Ora Nelle Blues"). But it does sound like a field recording. Anyone got any ideas?   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on August 12, 2014, 01:30:14 PM
The big mystery to me is, where is this track from? It's not on Document DOCD-5621, despite the cover of that disc being used to illustrate the clip.   

I was curious too so I did some poking around. Looks like the track is actually from Document's Field Recordings, Vol. 8: Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama (1934-1947) and at some point the artist name was changed from "Bob and Leroy" to "Rob LeRoy", maybe by the youtube uploader. They have one other track on the Document disc entitled "Bye Bye Baby".
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on August 12, 2014, 01:38:13 PM
Just found this song's page on the Lomax Archive. It was a Alan Lomax recording from Parchman Farm at one of the 1947 sessions. The musicians were Leroy Campbell and Robert (Yancey) Sanders.

http://research.culturalequity.org/rc-b2/get-audio-detailed-recording.do?recordingId=10713 (http://research.culturalequity.org/rc-b2/get-audio-detailed-recording.do?recordingId=10713)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on August 12, 2014, 05:14:40 PM
Yep, there it is, sitting on the shelf six feet away from me -- won't an artist name-change and the wrong record fool ya every time? Thank you, Lastfirstface.

Now, the next mystery is ... where did they get the song? In his notes to Vol 8, Howard Rye says only that it is "a premonition of Jimmy Rogers' That's All Right, recorded in 1950". As I mentioned in my last post, that song was also made as  "Ora Nelle Blues" in 1947 in Chicago, by Othum Brown, Little Walter and Jimmy Rogers. Bob and Leroy didn't record for Lomax until the end of 1947, but I still think it long odds that a song made it from a minor-label recording in Chicago to a prison farm in Mississippi that quickly. Suppose it's possible, but can anyone think of an older version? 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 16, 2014, 04:16:04 PM
Thanks very much, Lastfirstface and alyoung, for tracking down the provenance of the recording of "Sometimes I Wonder" and the identities of the the two players.  Perhaps the song had some degree of common currency in Mississippi prior to its having been recorded?  I know Sam Chatmon did a song he called "That's All Right" that was essentially the same song as "Sometimes I Wonder" and had the same refrain, but don't know where Sam got his version.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 16, 2014, 07:05:01 PM
Hi all,
In re-reading this thread a bit today after returning from a week away teaching at a music camp, I found that I neglected to give mr mando credit for correctly identifying Sylvester Cotton's "I Tried" as being played out of Spanish tuning, when that song was in a quiz, three pages back in this thread.  I am sorry for that oversight, mr mando, good identification, that was a tough one!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 18, 2014, 02:37:50 PM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The performer here is "unknown", doing "Ding Dong Ring".  I believe the source of this performance is the Lawrence Gellert recordings.  Hearing the tremendous sophistication of unknown's playing, I find myself a bit dubious as to whether the performers and recording circumstances were as Lawrence Gellert represented them.  Unknown is an absolute ace guitarist, and very jazzy--quite different from even the most excellent players recorded in prison by collectors other than Gellert.  Moreover, the lyrics of the song are at odds with the sophistication of the accompaniment.  Whatever the case,(and this is very unlikely to get sorted out at this late date) unknown delivers a sparkling rendition of "Ding Dong Ring".

Unknown - Ding Dong Ring (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF-OFBKtRQY#ws)

When they took me to Bellwood, I could hear that ding dong ring
Tyree said, "Wake up, Big Boy, I'm telling you to stand and sing

I told the Captain, "Please don't work me so hard."
I told the Captain, "Please don't work me so hard."
Captain said, "I'm sorry Big Boy, I know you have never had a hard job."

Well, it was one Monday morning, saw the jailer coming down the line
Well, it was one Monday morning, saw the jailer coming down the line
Well, they called my name, and said I had a great long time

But my Mother came to see me, my Father by her side
My Mother came to see me, my Father by her side
But all they could do was hang their heads and cry

SOLO

Called me this morning, just about a half past three
He called me this morning, just about half past three
He said, "Wake up, Big Boy, come and work for me."

I'm working for the county, when I'm sick or well
And I'm working for the county, when I'm sick or well
Say, the sun shine down on you, that's a burning hell

SOLO X 2 + CODA

Edited 10/10 to pick up correction from waxwing

Here are the questions with regard to "Ding Dong Ring":
   * What playing position/tuning was used for "Ding Dong Ring"?
   * Where is the fill from :08--:011 fretted?
   * Where is the turn-around from :38--:41 fretted?
   * Where is the fill from :45--:48 fretted?
   * Where is the fill in the solo, from 1:35--1:38 fretted?
Please use only your ears, guitar and musical experience to answer the questions, as always.  Let's allow a little longer than usual to answer the questions.  Please don't post your answers until Thursday, August 21, so that plenty of people have time to listen to "Ding Dong Ring" and work out their answers.  Thanks for your participation!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on August 20, 2014, 04:57:04 PM
I am sorry for that oversight, mr mando, good identification, that was a tough one!

No problem at all. I'm not here to get credit, but to have fun. Unfortunately, I didn't have too much time lately to play and participate in this thread. I missed a few nice ones. For Sylvester Cotton's "I Tried", I don't know why, but this little unison lick between open first and third fret second string just jumped out at me, so I never even considered G6 tuning. I will have to learn to mention these little identifiers.

This "Ding Dong Ring" is just another incredibly great tune I've never heard before. The playing reminds me a little bit of Snoozer Quinn, and there are some neat Blind Blake-y thumb rolls in there too.

Q: What playing position/tuning was used for "Ding Dong Ring"?
A: I would guess Standard Tuning/C Position, because it lays there very nicely. The intervals in the bar chords scream standard tuning, and the lowest note I hear is a fifth below the root (F in C) around 2:16.

Q: Where is the fill from :08--:011 fretted?
A: straight bar chords across the top four strings on frets: 5 - 3 - 4-5 - 3-4-5 - 4-4, then a G7 fingered as a bar chord across the top four strings on fret 3 with the middle finger on the 4th fret third string.

Q: Where is the turn-around from :38--:41 fretted?
A: mostly on the D, g and b strings: C: 2-0-1 C7: 2-3-1 F: 3-2-1 Fm7: 1-1-1 C: 2-0-1, then G7#5: 3-4-4-3 on the top 4 strings

Q: Where is the fill from :45--:48 fretted?
A: 1st bar: 1st triplet: string/fret 3/0-3/2-2/1; 2nd triplet: 2nd string 3-2-1 ; 3nd triplet: 1st string 3-2-1 ; 4th triplet: string 2/fret 4 -pause-string 1 open
2nd bar: 1st triplet: string/fret 3/0-3/2-2/1; 2nd triplet: 2nd string 3-2-1 ; then a Bb on 3rd string 3rd fret (out of a C7th chord).

Q: Where is the fill in the solo, from 1:35--1:38 fretted?
A: straight bar chords across the top three strings on frets: 5 - 8 - 5-8- 11 - 10 - 8 - 5 - 4, then G: 4-3-3 on the top 3 strings.

I'm pretty confident that I'm close to what's happening, but I doubt I can figure out the bass-heavy chords behind the vocals.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 21, 2014, 02:11:23 AM
That just about does it, mando! This one has quite a few Blake-ish elements. The fill from 45-48 is pure Blake, I think. I was totally stumped by that last fill...but I'd say you nailed it.


Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 21, 2014, 11:55:44 AM
This is wonderful playing.  Much in agreement with Mr Mando.  Played out of C, in standard tuning.  Only things I'd add is that I'm hearing a 9th chord (ie bar top 3 strings at 5th fret, 4th string, 4th fret) where he's bouncing around between the 3rd, 4th & 5th frets instead of a straight bar across the top 4 strings.  I'm also going for a G9/13th type chord(putting the E, 2nd string & A first string on the G7th at the 3rd fret) or maybes that's just me wanting to play that chord at that point.

Only other thing, is the C run instead of the triplet on the 2nd string going from 3, 2, 1 frets I'm hearing 4,3,1.  Great stuff though, I love this.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 21, 2014, 03:16:20 PM
Hi all,
Do any other folks want to post answers on "Ding Dong Ring"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on August 21, 2014, 05:46:28 PM
Hi all

Again others have done most of the hard work. Here are some additional thoughts. I just lost an answer I had been writing for a good half-an-hour, so pardon me, if I'm somewhat blunt tonight.

Quote
* What playing position/tuning was used for "Ding Dong Ring"?

C-position standard tuning, as others alreadyhave stated.

Quote
* Where is the fill from :08--:011 fretted?

X-7-8-7-8-X, then up chromatically without the lowest note: X-X-9-8-9-X, to X-X-10-9-10-X. The lick could be played on the top 4 strings as well, as Mr. Mando, and Old Man Ned stated. I like Old Man Ned's idea, that the C9 chord has the E note on the bass.

Quote
* Where is the turn-around from :38--:41 fretted?

A lone C note on the 10th fret of the 4th string, then broken chords with the bass note an 8th note early as follows: C7: X-X-7-8-7-X;  F: X-X-7-5-6-X;  Fm: X-X-6-5-6-X;  C: X-X-5-5-5-X;  Ab7: X-X-4-5-4-X; to G7+5 (good catch Mr. Mando) X-X-3-4-4-3.  The chords up to C could be played on the top three strings, but I personally prefere having the descending bass line on the 4th string all the way.

Quote
* Where is the fill from :45--:48 fretted?

Triplet one: open 3rd string-2nd fret 3rd string-1st fret 2nd string.
Second triplet: 2nd string 3rd fret bent up a half-step-2nd string 3rd fret bend released-2nd string 1st fret.
Third triplet, chromatic descent on the 1st string, 3rd to 2nd to 1st fret.
Two (swung) 8th notes, ope 1st strin-2nd string 1st fret.
The first two triplets are then repeated, followed by a C7 chord X-X-2-3-1-X.

Quote
* Where is the fill in the solo, from 1:35--1:38 fretted?

Here I?m torn! I first wanted to hear some fancy jazz chords, but then Mr. Mando brought me back to Earth with his parallel bar chords, which are much more likely to happen.  :-\
Tonight, I want to hear fancy jazz chords again, which probably is a huge mistake. :)
They are a C6 chord on the top 4 strings barred at 5th fret;
An F9 chord : X-X-7-8-8-8; 
these two repeated;
then a diminished chord at X-X-10-11-10-11;
then a G9: X-X-9-10-10-10;
the back to F9 and C6;
followed by an Ab7: X-X-4-5-4-4;
to G7+5 X-X-3-4-4-3;
then a diminished chord X-X-4-5-4-5,
then an octave  G note on the 1st string 3rd fret and open 3rd string;
then an Ab7: : X-X-4-5-4-X,
to a partial G7: X-X-3-X-X-3.
At least you have an alternative opinion!

Looking for the verdict again, as always

Cheers

Pan

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on August 21, 2014, 05:54:50 PM
Hi again

I forgot to add, that on a side note, I believe we have discussed Mr. Unkown, the guitar player before, in this thread from 2006 (!).
Unfortunately the links to the music have died long ago, but I have a clear image in my head, that the guitar player sounded very similar, and played some of the same licks as in our puzzle of today.

http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=1934.0 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=1934.0)

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 22, 2014, 11:06:09 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for your responses on "Ding Dong Ring".  Here are the answers to the questions that were posed:
   * Unknown did play "Ding Dong Ring" out of C position in standard tuning as you all had it.
   * The first fill in question, from :08-:11 in the rendition, utilizes a sixth chord shape on the first three strings, voiced Root-3-6 ascending from the third string to the first string, before resolving to an Ab7 chord voiced bVII-3-5-root on the top four strings.  The fill falls in the seventh and eighth bars of the form, like so:

   +   |   1      +      2     +      3        +        4     + | 1        +        2        +     3 (triplet) 4       +             
 5,       5-5    3,    3-3,          4-4-4  5-5-5,  (tied)    3-3-3 4-4-4 5-5-5   4,     5-4-4     5-4-4  3,     
3rd      1st    3rd   1st           1st      1st                  1st     1st     1st      4th    1st        1st    4th
string  two  string two           three three                three three  three  string  three    three string                                                     
         strings        strings      strings strings          strings strings strings         strings   strings                                                                           
                                 
         

The fill from :38-:41 likewise falls in the seventh and 8th bars of the form, with a progression of C-C7-F-Fm-C-Ab7-G7#5, like so:

+       |  1       +       2         +       3        +        4        +    | 1        +     2      +     3       + 4     +   
open    1-0,   3rd    1-0,     2nd     1-1,   1st      1-1,    open  1-0,   4th  5-4,  3rd   3rd       4-4  "
3rd      first    fret,   first     fret,     first   fret,     first   3rd     first   fret,  3rd  fret,   fret,     3rd     
string  two     third  two     3rd      two    3rd      two   string  two   4th   and  4th   first      and
          strings string strings string strings string strings       strings string 2nd string string  2nd
                                                                                                           strings                  strings

The fill from :45-:48 falls in the third and fourth bars of the form and goes like so:

1 (triplet)   2 (triplet)   3(triplet) 4(broken triplet)| 1(triplet)    2(triplet)     3            4
0-2,           4-3-1,       3-2-1,      Open                  Same as     Same as     3-1       open
third          second      first          first string           beat 1        beat 2        on         1st     
string, to   string,       string        to                       triplet         triplet         3rd        string
1,             with                           1st fret,              from           from          and                           
2nd          slide                           3rd                     previous      previous    2nd
string       from 4-3                    string                  measure     measure   strings

The fill at 1:35-1:38 falls in the seventh and eight bars of the form, and unknown is using his partial sixth form on the first three strings to do a chord melody, pretty much as mr mando had it.  One neat thing about fretting the first three strings as a moveable shape is that it can function as 6th chord, as noted earlier, a rootless 9th chord voiced bVII-9-5 on the top three strings, or a minor chord voiced bIII-5-root, or as a rootless major seventh chord voiced 5-7-3.

+       | 1        +   2       + 3(quarter note triplet)     |  1            +       2       3(quarter note triplet)
5th      5-5-5,    8-8-8,     5-5-5,   8-8-8,  11-11-11 10-10-10, 8th   8-8,   5-5-5    4-5-4    4th 
fret,     first       first         first       first       first         first          fret,   first   first       4th,     fret,       
3rd      three     three      three     three     three       three        3rd    two   three     3rd,      1st     
string   strings  strings    strings   strings   strings     strings     string strings strings  2nd     string
                                                                                                                             strings

Two things are striking about unknown's playing, apart from his tremendous skill and fluidity.  One is that he is almost certainly flat-picking, not finger-picking, and has enormous facility moving from controlled brush stokes to single string runs.  Mr mando's comparison of unknown to Snoozer Quinn is very apt, for his sound has more in common with Quinn's than with any well-known Country Blues guitarist.  The other thing that sets him apart from other Country Blues guitarists is his fondness for sixth chords.  He uses them not only for the little partial fingering on his first three strings but also for an F6 chord, 1-X-3-2-3 early in the song at :27-:29 and a C6 at the 8th fret at :30-:32 and an Ab6 at :33. 
Good hearing, everybody!  I hope that my representation of where the phrases were fretted and where they fall relative to the pulse is clear. 
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on August 22, 2014, 07:49:07 PM
I was off by a fourth on this one (or a fifth, depending on which way you go)....man, I need to get my ear calibrated or something.

I was hearing 9ths, not 6ths....

Back to the drawing board.

But please, keep these coming.  I enjoy them, even if I'm really wrong.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on August 23, 2014, 06:40:07 AM
What Ross said!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 23, 2014, 09:10:08 AM
Hi all,
I've got a new poser for you.  It is "Gas Station Blues", performed by Skoodle Dum Doo and Sheffield, who also did "Tampa Blues", a couple of pages back in the thread.  The duo only recorded four titles, and I just like their music.

Skoodle Dum Doo And Sheffield - Gas Ration Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4EzU8oLrQo#)

SOLO

I've got the gas ration blues, keeps me worried all the time
I've got the gas ration blues, keeps me worried all the time
I can't get in the country to see that lovin' gal of mine

I would go to the country but I can't get no gasoline
I would go to the country but I can't get no gasoline
I want somebody to tell me, when has they seen Josephine

Josephine, Josephina, where you been so long?
Tell me, Josephina, where you been so long?
I would have been to see you, baby, but all my gas is gone

SOLO


The questions are:
   * What playing position/tuning is used to play the piece?
   * Where, relative to capo position if there is a capo, is the walk-down from :16-:19 fretted?
   * Where is the tremolo passage at the beginning of the solo, 2:01-2:03 fretted?
Please use only your ears and your instruments to come up with your answers.  Please don't post any answers before Sunday, August 24.  Thanks for your participation.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on August 24, 2014, 11:51:41 AM
Hey guys, I don't want to be the first one with an answer every time, so please step forward!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 24, 2014, 12:27:05 PM
And I don't always want to be second. With the wrong answer!

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harvey on August 24, 2014, 01:05:51 PM
I will have a go however I am in deepest darkest Cornwall with no guitar or decent internet connection.

Will say A position capo second fret
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on August 24, 2014, 03:11:59 PM
My guesses would be the following:

Q: What playing position/tuning is used to play the piece?
A: Standard Tuning G Position (capo at 4th fret). for the IV chord (C), I hear a thumb roll from the root to the third (C to E), which doesn't exclude open G or std./A Position, but makes them very improbable. Additionally, there's a II7-V7 progression in the form where you usually have a V7-IV Progression, and here I think I hear the low root of the II chord ring like an open string, which would make it an A7.

Q: Where, relative to capo position if there is a capo, is the walk-down from :16-:19 fretted?
A: Instead of explaining it, is it OK if I post this little tab (position realtive to capo placement)?

-|-----------------|-----
-|-----3---2---1---|-0---
-|-----0---0---0---|-0---
-|-0-3---2---1---0-|-----
-|-----------------|-----
-|-----------------|-----
   1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +   1


Q: Where is the tremolo passage at the beginning of the solo, 2:01-2:03 fretted?
A: realtive to capo placement,  1st string 3rd fret and 2nd string 4th fret bent up a half note, as the lower voice seems to be a bit "wavy".
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 24, 2014, 03:35:05 PM
I originally thought half Spanish capoed at 4th fret with the turnaround as man do has it. I then settled for A with capo at 2 as suggested by Harvey. The turnaround would then be frets 5? 4?3?on the second string. Without a guitar to hand I'll need to pass in the tremolo passage!

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on August 24, 2014, 04:11:41 PM
Hi all.

I think I'll agree with Harvey and Professor Scratchy on A-position standard tuning, pitched at around B. The treble licks could mostly be played in more than one position, I believe, which makes figuring this one out a little tough.

I believe I'm hearing a low V note on the 6th string at times, which would put G-position out, although I too considered it first, as the treble licks would fall quite naturally in it.

The chord shapes are a little unusual for A-position, so I considered Spanish as well. After some experimenting though, I think the treble licks are little too difficult in Spanish, so I'll settle with A in standard after all. 

Quote
* Where, relative to capo position if there is a capo, is the walk-down from :16-:19 fretted?

I believe he plays the walk-down on strings 4 and 2, chromatically on frets 5-4-3-2, same frets on both strings, and interjects the open 1st string at times.

Quote
* Where is the tremolo passage at the beginning of the solo, 2:01-2:03 fretted?

In A-position it would be fretted on the 1st string 5th fret, and 2nd string 7th fret, if I'm not mistaken.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on August 24, 2014, 04:53:36 PM
I couldn't ignore the previous replies today so I'm going with G position capo'd at 4. I can't get  A position to sound right so it may be an alt tuning but standard out of G sounds pretty  good.

The :16-:19 turnround is fretted on the 4th and 3rd strings. 3rd open and 4th fretted 5,3,2,0 which sounds nothing like what everyone else has so I wonder if I'm listening to the same thing?
EDIT the tremeloe bit sounds like a Dm shape at the 3rd fret playing mainly the 1st and second strings

AND this morning i hear the 4,3,2 on the 3rd string quite clearly. weird. ah well i have two walkdowns for G now :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on August 24, 2014, 07:21:47 PM
G position, capoed at 4 (key of B).

Turn around...and now, for something completely different...I hear 4th string 5th fret, 3rd string 4, 3, 2

The tremolo sounds to me to be a B chord played as a D shape on the 7th fret.

Although, putting this in Spanish with capo at 4 plays so well, I might just do that...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on August 25, 2014, 03:12:10 AM
I just realized that I have the tab partially upside down. Here's what I wanted to type:


-|-----------------|-----
-|---3---2---1---0-|-----
-|---0---0---0---0-|-----
-|-0---3---2---1---|-0---
-|-----------------|-----
-|-----------------|-----
   1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +   1

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on August 25, 2014, 08:43:11 AM
I was trying out some of the positions that have been suggested and found something on the recording that threw me for a loop. I feel like I keep hearing a very low B root on the sixth string being thumped away at. Could he be playing in vestapol tuned down to B and fingering the lead licks up near the 12th on the first string?

 At 1:22 it sounds like he fingers up a whole step and hits a low Db (C# if we're in the key of B) twice on the sixth string followed by two notes on the open 5th string (F#) at about 1:25. He repeats this turn-around at 1:52.

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 25, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for your participation, it's great to have so many people posting answers.  Whichever of Skoodle Dum Doo and Sheffield that was the guitarist was doing the following on "Gas Ration Blues".

The song was played out of G position in standard tuning, as mr mando, Gumbo and One-Eyed Ross had it.  There are a number of things that give away the G position.  I'm just wondering, did any of you re-listen to "Tampa Blues", which the same guitarist played out of A position in standard tuning?  The reason I ask is because the two pieces are pitched identically, and I'm sure the harp player used the same harp, but they sound so different in the guitar parts.  In "Tampa Blues", the guitarist used the thumb-wrapped D7 for his IV chord.  In "Gas Ration Blues", he's pretty clearly working out of a C position for his IV chord, because he most often does a thumb roll, a la Blake from the fifth to the fourth string in the C shape for his IV chord.  Also, in "Gas Ration Blues", when he goes to his II7 chord in the ninth bar, it very much has an A7 sound in the treble, with the root of the chord in the bass on the fifth string.  To get that sound out of a II7 chord working out of the A position, you'd have to finger a B7 chord X-2-4-4-4-5, not an impossible stretch but an awkward one, and one not encountered in the vast majority of Country Blues guitar playing I've heard.  "Tampa Blues" abounds in low roots for its V7 chord, E7 working out of the A position, but "Gas Ration Blues" has no low roots for its V chord, D, which is very de-emphasized.
The turn-around at :16-:19 is pretty much exactly as mr mando had it in his most recent version, a chromatic walk-down on the fourth and second strings from the third fret on each string down to the open string, with the I note sounding on the third string through-out the course of the walk-down.  The walk-down is an unusual one, because normally walk-downs involve taking the third of the chord on one string down to the root of the chord and the fifth of the chord down to the third of the chord, as in the E walk-down between the first and third strings, coming down from the fourth fret.  It walks as follows, with the voices on each string indicated as it descends:

1st string fret  4    3    2    0
 chord voice    III bIII  II    R
3rd string fret  4    3    2    1
 chord voice    V    bV   IV  III

In "Gas Station Blues", the walk-down is considerably more exotic and eccentric-sounding because of the voices of the chord the walk-down starts at on the second and fourth strings:

2nd string fret   3    2    1    0
 chord voice      V    bV   IV   III
4th string fret   3    2     1    0
chord voice     bVII  VI   bVI  V

Truthfully, the walk-down ends up being really gnarly to harmonize, but in general, if you can hear where in a chord a walk-down starts from and ends up on the strings involved, it can really help you figure it out.

The tremolo passage that starts the solo at 2:01-2:03 is fingered at the third fret of the first string and the fifth fret of the second string, with the third fret of the first string being ever so slightly bent.  It's kind of a surprising double stop to play over a G chord, because the notes, E on the second string and G on the first string are a sixth and a root, relative to G.  It is a much more common double stop to play against a C chord, where the same notes are the third and the fifth of the C chord.

I think I may have caused some confusion by saying "Where did the guitarist play the phrases, relative to capo position?".  A clearer way to express the meaning I was going for would be to say, "Where would the phrase have been fretted if the piece was played without a capo?"  I'm sorry for any confusion I may have caused with that.  I hope you'll go back and compare "Tampa Blues" and "Gas Ration Blues" if you haven't done that yet, because I think it will clarify the difference in the playing positions a lot.  Thanks for your participation.
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on August 25, 2014, 10:19:43 AM
Thanks for the update. 

Although, I think I'm going to do this in Spanish.  I like the sound of it....

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 27, 2014, 03:35:45 PM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The song is Bull City Red's "I Won't Be Dogged Around", and the questions are as follows:

Bull City Red - I Won?t Be Dogged Around (George Washington) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8bPcvX5HcY#ws)

INTRO

Now, you said you been worried, havin' trouble all of your life
Well, you said you been worried, havin' trouble all of your life
But you never had no trouble 'til you fall for another man's wife

When you get a woman of your own and make her happy, night and day
When you get a woman of your own, make her happy, night and day
Then she'll fall for some no-good man and pretty soon she'll go astray

Lawdy, Lawdy, Lawdy, Lawdy, Law
Lawdy, Lawdy, Lawdy, Lawdy, Lawd
Lawd, the woman I love treats me like a doggone dog

But I ain't no dog and I won't be dogged around
Mmmm, I ain't no dog and I won't be dogged around
Before I stand your doggin', babe, I'll leave this town

SOLO

Don't the moon look pretty, shinin' down on them trees?
Don't the moon look pretty, shinin' on them trees?
And I can see my little woman, but she can't see me

SOLO


   * What playing position/tuning does he use to play the song?
   * The song opens with him playing brushed triplets in the treble.  Assuming he was not playing with a capo and was sounding in the same key as the position he was playing in, where would he have fretted those three different places he brushes the triplets?
   * Describe the form of the song, either indicating the chords he used to play it or numeric designations, like I, IV and V.
   * His signature lick has two different versions.  Where does he fret the version that he plays from :21-:23, and where does he fret the version he plays from :47-:50?
   * Where does he fret his final walk-down, from 3:03-3:05?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to figure out your answers, and please don't post any answers before Friday morning, August 29, so that lots of folks can have an opportunity to figure out their answers without being too swayed by answers that have already been posted.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on August 29, 2014, 07:54:22 AM
Oh, the joy of listening to music.  At first, I thought this was a Blind Boy Fulle song....has that kind of feel to it.

This sounds like a simple I-IV-I-IV-V-IV-I song...at first.

What I can say is I believe this is in E flat.  After that, I'm real confused.  If it were a Blind Willie song, I'd say he was tuned down standard and playing E flat out a C shape, but the base doesn't sound low enough for that.  Then I thought maybe tuned down a bit and playing out of D position....maybe.  But what works for me is using a capo and playing a C shape, with that BBF sound to it.

Since I can't get the position/tuning right, I'll leave the rest to someone else....

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 29, 2014, 08:15:28 AM
Yeah, it definitely has a Blind Boy Fuller feel to it.  Apologies for the brevity of this but I've got to dash and haven't been able to give it all the time it deserves but here's what I've got:
Capo on 3rd fret and played out of C as One Eyed Ross suggests.
Opening brushed triplets are 1st string 3rd fret, 2nd str 5th fret, then moving up one and a half steps (but I've not fully convinced myself on this)
Form of the song - sorry, ran out of time
Signature lick: I got as 2nd string going down 4,3,2,1 frets; open 3rd str; 1st str going down 3,2,1 frets then 2nd str 4th fret 2nd str 1st fret.  This what I got for the first one but didn't have time to figure out the other fingering
The walked down goes from 3rd str 9 fret and 2nd str 8 fret down a half step till you end up at the 5th fret on the 2 ?& 3 strings.

Phew, not at all familiar with Bull City Red, bet he got fed up of folk telling him he sounded like Blind Boy Fuller.....

Got to go......looking forward to any other thoughts and the answer.

All the best

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 29, 2014, 10:07:46 AM
OK, here's my take on the questions, in order of appearance (though I failed miserably on the second version of the signature lick)!

1 standard tuning C position capo 3rd fret

2 string/fret: 1/3 2/5: 1/5 2/7: 1/3 2/5: 1/1 2/3

3 IV///  I/ V/ 1/I V///  I/ V/ 1/ V/// 1/ V/ I/

4 string/fret: 5/3: 2/4310: 6/3: 2/0: 1/3210 to C chord

5 3rd and 2nd string fretted at 8/7/6 to C chord
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on August 29, 2014, 10:22:18 AM
Here's what I hear:

Q: What playing position/tuning does he use to play the song?
A: C position standard / tuning capoed up

Q: The song opens with him playing brushed triplets in the treble.  Where would he have fretted those three different places he brushes the triplets?
A: first and second strings 3/5, then 5/7, then 2/4, then back to 3/5

Q: Describe the form of the song.
A: the solos differ a little, but for the verses I would say: IV - IV - I/V - I - IV - IV - I/V - I - V - V - I/V - I

Q: His signature lick has two different versions.  Where does he fret the version that he plays from :21-:23, and where does he fret the version he plays from :47-:50?
A: I hear only a small difference for those two licks, and I guess they're both played in first position.

The version he plays from :21-:23 would be:

C chord on beat one, a triplet on the second string 3b-3-1 (3b would be 3rd fret bent up a half step), on beat three broken triplet with open B string with a G in the bass (V chord) and 3rd fret first string, 4th beat triplet on top string 2-1-0, then a C chord with the high G on the top tring for beat one of the next bar.

The version he plays from :47-:50 differs only on beats three and four to my ear. Beat three triplet open B string with a G in the bass-3rd fret first string- 2nd fret first string, 4th beat triplet first string first fret- second string fourth fret-first string open, then again a C chord with the high G on the top string for the next bar.

Q: Where does he fret his final walk-down, from 3:03-3:05?
A: first and second strings 3/5, 2/4, 1/3, 0/1, as indicated by the G7-C chord change right after, which sound like typical first position chords to me.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on August 29, 2014, 10:40:31 AM
Phew, not at all familiar with Bull City Red, bet he got fed up of folk telling him he sounded like Blind Boy Fuller.....

Since he was Fuller's regular washboard player, my guess is he wouldn't have been too upset :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on August 29, 2014, 04:42:30 PM
I'm in on the C position capo'd at 3

seems like he applies the play it twice rule to the triplets. I'm guessing the 2/4 was accidental. 3/5 5/7 2/4 3/5
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on August 29, 2014, 05:13:50 PM
Hi all

Agreed on C position, sounding at around E flat.

I think Mr. Mando nailed the brushed triplets.

As for the song form, the intro and solo are 8 bars long, with an implied II chord, as Mr. Mando had in describing the triplets. The vocal verse is 12 bars long, starting with the IV chord:

||: IV | IV | I V | I |

| IV | IV | I V | I |

| V | V | I V | I :||

I think Mr. Mando nailed the signature licks as well.

For the final walk down, I hear a little surprising run-down in minor thirds, instead of the usual major thirds that you would expect: 1st string 3rd fret/ 2nd string 4th fret; then move the same fingering down chromatically one fret; then another; then  open 1st string/2nd string 1st fret; then followed by G7 and C chords.

Cheers

Pan








Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 29, 2014, 08:22:05 PM
Hi all,
Thanks to all of you who responded.  I'm happy that every single responder had the playing position right--C position, sounding at around E flat.  As for the other questions that were asked, the answers are as follows:
   * The form of the song, for the sung portions, is a 12-bar blues with the first two four-bar phrases starting on the IV chord.  The last two bars of each of the 4-bar phrases are harmonically identical because that is where Bull City Red played his signature lick.  So the form, which was correctly identified by mr mando and Pan, is:

   |    IV    |    IV    |  I  V   |    I    |

   |    IV    |    IV    |  I  V   |    I    |

   |    V     |     V     |  I  V   |    I    |
   * The three double stops that Bull City Red played at the beginning of the song were correctly identified by mr mando, Gumbo and Pan.  On the first two strings, going from second string to first, they were 5-3, 7-5, 4-2 5-3.
   *  The versions of the signature lick from :21-:23 and from :47-:50 were correctly identified by mr mando.  I think it is interesting that two versions of the lick consist of the same notes, but that the second version arrives at the brushed 1-3 on the second and first strings on the last note of the fourth beat triplet, while the earlier version of the signature lick doesn't arrive at the same place until the downbeat of the fourth measure.
   * Pan had the concluding walk-down correct.  It is definitely an odd one, because normally walk-downs start with two harmonizing chord tones, most often the third and the fifth, but sometimes the fifth and the bVII.  Bull City Red's walks down chromatically, on the second and first strings as listed here, from 4-3 to 3-2 to 2-1 to 1-0.  If we look at those notes, we see that one reason the walk-down has an odd cast to it is that he begins with a bIII on the second string and a V note on the first string.  Here's what he ends up with:

Second string frets:   4   3   2   1
Second string notes: Eb D  Db  C
First string frets:       3   2   1   0
First string notes:     G  F#  F   E

The Db-F double stop is a particularly odd-sounding one in the key of C, but the whole walk-down has a slightly twisted quality to it.

I feel like people are basically hearing things pretty well, and in fact every question about the song was answered correctly by at least one or more people.  Good work!  I really like this song and hope to hear one of you play it some day.  Thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on August 29, 2014, 09:44:26 PM
Thanks, John, for the update - I confess I was confused at first when you talked about "assuming he was not playing with a capo..."  Took me a few minutes to understand what you were meaning...(I'm easily confused some days, she tells me)....

It is a great tune, and now that greater brains than mine have dissected it a bit more than I did, I will be adding this one to my list.  As you said, it is a great tune....gotta work on them licks. 

Keep this going.  Love it.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on August 30, 2014, 06:37:47 AM
Just got to this as I've been away from the internet and JM has now trumped anything that could be said. The form felt to me like a 16bar blues with the first 4 bars omitted.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 31, 2014, 02:46:53 PM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for those who are interested.  The song is "West Side Blues", as performed by Willie Harris on guitar and an un-named pianist.  Here is the performance:

https://youtu.be/gs3IV5I3L2o

The questions for "West Side Blues" are as follows:
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Harris use to play the song?
   * Where is he fretting the position he begins the form with at :08-:09?
   * What is he fretting at :13-:14, as he winds up his first four bars?
   * What are the five places he frets the descending passage on two treble strings, from 2:29-2:34?

As always, please use only your ears and instrument to come up with your answers.  Please don't post any answers until Tuesday morning, September 2.  Answer as many or as few of the questions as you wish.  I hope you enjoy listening to the tune.  I love this duo's time.  Thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on September 02, 2014, 04:02:40 AM
Ok here's my go at it. Who is the vocalist and does she mention West Side blues at all?

position/tuning of F/standard

fretting a D shape F at the 5th and 6th (xxx565) at 08s

at 13s it sounds like 3rd string 8,7,5,open - 4th string 7 - 3rd string 5 - 4th string open,5,3

the descending riff 2:28 sounds like (1st/2nd strings)
13/11 (x4)
11/9 (x4)
10/8 (x4)
8/6 (x2)
5/3
3/1
1/1
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 02, 2014, 05:29:23 AM
In agreement with F/standard tuning.  For the bit at 8 secs, the D position at the 5th & 6th fret sounds a little bit flat to me.  I'm hearing it more at the 8th & 9th fret (1st, 2nd str respectively).  The run that follows this, I'm getting 2nd str: 4th, 3rd 1st fret, 3rd str 1st fret hammer on to 2nd fret. then 5th str 3rd fret, open 4th str followed by 4ht str at 3rd fret.

For the 5 descending positions, I'm having real trouble hearing where the first one is but I'm going for the D position right up at the 12th & 13th fret, and bringing that down to 10th & 11th fret; 8th & 9th fret, 5th & 6th fret and ending on 1st str/1st fret, 2nd str/3rd fret, but not all together confident on that.

All the best,
L
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on September 02, 2014, 07:43:34 AM
Agree key of F. Not sure whether it's dropped D or Vestapol though. the licks on the 1st 2 strings would be the same except moved up 2 frets, i.e. 5/6bend or 7/8 bend. Struggling like Ned with the descending lick.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 02, 2014, 12:13:56 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for "West Side Blues"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on September 02, 2014, 12:16:49 PM
It's sounding in F, that's for sure. I first thought it's in E position standard Tuning capoed on the first fret, but the chord at 0:13 is putting this in D Position, standard tuning for me. So the answers would be as follows:

Q: What playing position/tuning did Willie Harris use to play the song?
A: D Position, standard tuning (capo III). Could also be dropped D, as I don't hear a low root under the IV chord, but I don't hear a low D note either.

Q: Where is he fretting the position he begins the form with at 0:08-0:09?
A: 5th fret (relative to capo) on both the first and second string (probably with ring finger and pinky), the second string note bent up almost a whole step repeatedly.

Q: What is he fretting at 0:13-0:14, as he winds up his first four bars?
A: a D9 chord without 3rd, fingered (low to high) 0-2-1-0 (relative to the capo) on the top four strings

Q: What are the five places he frets the descending passage on two treble strings, from 2:29-2:34?
A: low to high: 5bb-5; 6-7; 6-5; 3-2; 1-0; (bb means bent more than a half note)

My ears are not fast enough for the runs today, so I don't know what he's playing between 0:09 and 0:13
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on September 02, 2014, 02:35:26 PM
No appropriately tuned instrument at hand to check, but listening to the song, I agree with mr mando. Harris is playing out of D position, capoed up, IMO.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on September 02, 2014, 04:26:34 PM
I'm currently away from proper listening means, and a guitar, so I'll have to pass on this one. I'm happy to see many paticipants already.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 03, 2014, 07:16:15 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for your responses on "West Side Blues".  Here are the answers to the questions that were asked.
   * Willie Harris played the song out of D position in standard tuning, as mr mando and uncle bud had it.  The late Michael Stewart recorded a solo version of the song, for which he chose to accompany himself out of dropped-D tuning, but there is no aural evidence that Willie Harris used that tuning for his rendition.
   * At :08-:09, Willie Harris is fretting the first string at the fifth fret and bending the second string at the sixth fret.  He may be using a D shape to do this, but since he's not hitting the third string, there is know way of knowing for sure.
   * Willie Harris winds up his first four bars by hitting the first fret of the second string and the open first string, emphasizing the bVII and the 9 note of the D chord to set up the movement to his IV chord, G.  Buddy Moss went for a similar sound on his "New Lovin' Blues", though Buddy added the open third string in there, giving himself a very uptown-sounding D9sus.
   * In the passage from 2:29-2:34, Willie Harris moved the fingering he used at :08-:09 down the neck progressively from 10th fret first string and bent 11th fret second string, to seventh fret first string and 8th fret second string, to fifth fret first string and bent sixth fret second string, to second fret first string and third fret second string, to open first string and first fret of the second string.  The same downward movement on the first string from root to VI to V to III to II was used by Frank Stokes on "Frank Stokes' Dream" and Charlie Patton on "Green River Blues", but out of E position in standard tuning, and harmonizing the first string movement with the same fret on the third string.  Willie Harris is the first player I can recall having gone for that descending harmonized sound out of D position in standard tuning.  Incidentally, Gumbo correctly identified the left hand movement Willie Harris made relative to the playing position he (Gumbo) selected.

Thanks for participating to those who posted answers.  Perhaps "West Side Blues" is another indication not to set too much store by the key in which a rendition sounds.  If you listen to how the left hand is used, where hammers and bends fall and so on, you'll probably get a better sense of the position used to play the song.  I think the next puzzler I post will just be a series of performances in which the only questions for each is the playing position/tuning.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 03, 2014, 11:31:07 AM
Hi all,
Here are some more puzzlers.  First from Jimmy Murphy:

JIMMY MURPHY Shanty Boat Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjvRV2jKRRU#)

INTRO

I wants to stand on the levee, feel that muddy water in my shoes (spoken: yeah)
I wants to stand on the levee, feel that muddy water in my shoes
I wants to let this old river wash away my blues (spoken:  yes, yes)

SOLO (Spoken during solo:  Pick it, boy!  Pick that thing!)

I got a shanty on the river, and the door is open wide (spoken: yes)
I got a shanty on the river, and the door is open wide
I got a long tall mama, livin' on the other side (spoken: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah)

SOLO

She's got no money, no diamonds on her hand (spoken:  Sing 'em, Jimmy!  Sing them blues!)
She's got no money, no diamonds on her hand
She's just a shanty-boatin' mama, but she loves her shanty-boatin' man (spoken: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man)

SOLO (Spoken: Sounds pretty!)

Feelin' kind of lonesome with this muddy water in my shoes
Feelin' kind of lonesome with this muddy water in my shoes
That steamboat whistle makes a good man want to move (spoken: Yeah, I'm gone)

OUTRO

   * What position/tuning did Jimmy Murphy play "Shanty Boat Blues out of?

Next, from Tarheel Slim (Alden Bunn), we have "Wild Cat Tamer":

Tarheel Slim - Wildcat tamer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a713TRQWzBs#)

INTRO

I'm a wild cat tamer and I'm going to try my hand on you
I'm a wild cat tamer and I'm going to try my hand on you
When I got you, baby, I'm gonna see what I can do

You had Tom, Dick and Harry eating out of your hand
But when I get you, baby, I'm gonna bring you under my command
REFRAIN: I'm a wild cat tamer and I'm going to try my hand on you
When I got you, baby, I'm gonna see what I can do

You had Tom doin' the dishes, Dick was scrubbin' the floors
You had Harry washing and ironing, but oh, baby, oh
REFRAIN: I'm a wild cat tamer and I'm going to try my hand on you
When I got you, baby, I'm gonna see what I can do

I've tamed lions in the jungle, horses on the range
But when I get you, baby, there's gonna be a brand new change
REFRAIN: I'm a wild cat tamer and I'm going to try my hand on you
When I got you, baby, I'm gonna see what I can do

SOLO

I've tamed lions in the jungle, horses on the range
Now when I get you, baby, there's gonna be a brand new change
REFRAIN: I'm a wild cat tamer and I'm going to try my hand on you
When I got you, baby, I'm gonna see what I can do
When I get you, baby, I'm gonna see what I can do
When I get you, baby, I'm gonna see (fade) 


   * What position/tuning did Tarheel Slim use to play "Wild Cat Tamer"?

Lastly, from Georgia Slim, "New Root Man Blues":

https://youtu.be/GZu4tv77WzI

SOLO

Well, I'll tell you people, got another root man in town
Hoo well, got another root man's in town
Well, well, they don't be careful, hoo-well-well, they take your wife and leave town

He's a root man, and he's 'round every night
Hoo-well-well, he's 'round every night
Well, well, he's around, hoo-well-well, for another man's wife

SOLO (Spoken: Hey, you gotta be careful with that root man 'cause he done took my wife.  Love a root man.

Well, I'll tell you mens, all of them crazy as that root man's in town
Hoo-well, they crazy as a root man in town
Well, well, they go 'round a-screamin', hoo-well-well, "This root man is in town."

Well, I'm goin' out, I'm goin' 'round just in town
Hoo-well, I'm goin' 'round in town
Just because I'm in love, hoo-well-well, that root man is 'bout to knock me out of town

Well, he's a careful man, and he don't care about what he do
Hoo-well, He don't care about what he do
Well, well, he take your woman, hoo-well-well, they leave town, too

Well, I ain't singin' no more just because I'm goin' out of town
Hoo-well, you know that I'm goin' out of town
Well, that root man done done damage, hoo-well-well, now your love can't be found



   * What position/tuning did Georgia Slim use to play "New Root Man Blues"?

Please use only your ears and your instrument to figure these out, and please wait until Friday, September 5, to post your answers.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jpeters609 on September 03, 2014, 12:06:07 PM
I think that the lead guitar on "Wildcat Tamer" (as well as its flip, "Number 9 Train") was handled by Wild Jimmy Spruill.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 03, 2014, 12:19:51 PM
Hi Jeff,
"No. 9 Train" was played by Wild Jimmy Spruill, but "Wildcat Tamer" is Tarheel Slim all the way.  He played the very same accompaniment on his Trix album as a solo number with a different title.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Annabel on September 05, 2014, 05:38:03 AM
Ok, here's my first go at this game:

They sound to me like they're all in standard tuning as follows:

Shanty boat blues: G position, key of G
Wildcat Tamer: E position, key of B
New Root Man Blues: A position, key of A
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on September 05, 2014, 06:59:39 AM
i agree they all sound like standard
so I think:
G position
B7 position (o212o2)
A position
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 05, 2014, 07:24:32 AM
What Gumbo said.

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 05, 2014, 07:36:04 AM
Yep, agree with Shanty Boat Blues in G and New Root Man Blues in A, both standard tuning.  Didn't get around to Wild Cat Tamer unfortunately.  Just out of curiosity, how does someone get the name of "Peanut the Kidnapper" (see New Root Man Blues CD pic).  There's got to be a story behind that.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 05, 2014, 12:35:18 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for Jimmy Murphy, Tarheel Slim and Georgia Slim?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 05, 2014, 11:10:05 PM
Hi all,
The playing positions are as follows:
   * Jimmy Murphy's "Shanty Boat Blues"--Vestapol tuning.  If you listen to his IV chord, 0-2-0-1-0-0, and V7 chord, 2-0-2-1-0-2, behind his singing, they don't sound anything like the IV and V7 chord in either G position in standard tuning or E position in standard tuning.  He does a neat rock in the bass under his I chord, hitting the open fifth string, then fretting it at the second fret, just suggesting a IV chord.
   * Tarheel Slim's "Wild Cat Tamer"--B (B7) position in standard tuning.  This is a really nifty piece, and he keeps coming back to a IV9 chord, E9, at the base of the neck, 0-X-2-1-3-2, that sounds great.
   * Georgia Slim's "New Root Man Blues"--A position in standard tuning.  Everyone had this one right.
Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoyed the tunes.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 07, 2014, 11:13:53 AM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  It is Johnny Shines' rendition of "Tennessee Woman Blues".  Johnny probably hasn't received as much credit or discussion around here as he deserves, for he was a wonderful player and singer, especially.  Here is "Tennessee Woman Blues":

https://youtu.be/RwPjmqmtABk

I'm gonna sit down and write a letter and mail it to Tennessee
I'm gonna sit down, write a letter, mail it to Tennessee
I'm just wild about my baby, wonder do she ever think of poor me

She got ways like an angel, she got calls just like a dove
She got way like an angel, whoo, she got calls just like a dove
And every time she smile, whoo-hoo, now come my love

Now wake up, sweet mama, please don't sleep too late
You know your brownskin daddy is standin' at your gate, said, he cryin'
Ple-ease, plea-ease, don't do me wrong
Well, I'm just a strange man here, mama, whoo-hoo, I'm a long way from my home

SOLO

My Tennessee woman, she got two teeth solid gold
Ye-e-es, my Tennessee woman, she got two teeth solid gold
And every time I kiss her, whoo-hoo, I swear my blood run cold   

The questions for "Tennessee Woman Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Johnny Shines use to play the song?
   * Where is Johnny fretting the shuffle back-up that he plays from :19--:23?
   * Where does Johnny fret the turn-around run that he plays over the I chord, from :40--:42?
   * Where does Johnny fret the triplet fills at 1:33--1:35?
   * Where does Johnny fret the concluding chords he plays, from 2:44--2:48, and what are they?

Please use only your ears and instruments in figuring out your answers, and please don't post any answers prior to Tuesday, September 9, so that plenty of people will get a chance to listen and formulate their answers before seeing other posters responses to the questions.  I hope you enjoy the song and thanks for participating.

Edited 10/28 to pick up lyrics from Johnm
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on September 09, 2014, 04:02:48 AM
Ok, I think Johnny Shines is playing in the A position, tuned up a semitone or capoed at the first fret, and the shuffle movement at :19 -  :23 is on the A chord, going from second to fourth fret on the d string.
The run on the turn-around sounds like the open 1st string, 2nd string 4th fret, 3rd fret then a nasty little bend up on the first fret with the open first sounding. Then 2nd string first fret, third fret, first fret and down to the root note at the 2nd fret  with the 3rd string.
I think the triplets at 1:33 are the third fret on the 1st string and the fifth fret on the 2nd string, with a slide coming up on the b string to get there.
I still haven't found the concluding chords, damn.
It's a pleasure finally joining in with this, thanks !

Gordon
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on September 09, 2014, 06:54:19 AM
I tuned to an open A position EAEAC#E and capo'd on 1 to sound in Bb

fret positions relative to the capo:
0:19-0:23 5th and 4th strings  open and fretting the 4th at 2

0:39-0:43 hopefully looks something like this
-   -  o  -  - -  - -  - o
1 2h -  2 1 o  - o 1h- 1 o
-   -   -  -  -  -  - -  -  - -  - o

1:33 triplets are at 1st string 5th fret and 2nd string 6th fret (relative to capo on 1)

I'm still puzzling over the closing chords
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on September 09, 2014, 08:01:57 AM
I've been so busy getting high school football and soccer concessions up and running, I haven't had much time lately...so here is what I have so far:

B flat, but instead of A position I have in in G (standard tuning, capo 3).   I think the bass notes sound right this way (but willing to admit my ears aren't as good as they could be, which is why I do this exercise!)

The rest of it I haven't had time to figure out...next week should be slower for me, so I'll keep plugging away at these.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on September 09, 2014, 08:33:05 AM
Q: What playing position/tuning did Johnny Shines use to play the song?
A: Spanish at Bb. It's definitely a position which lends itself to the boogie bass and still has the low V available for a bass note. A position in standard would be another possibility, but there are some spots where I seem to hear the third of the I chord ringing, which is a sound you don't get in in A pos/std.
Q: Where is Johnny fretting the shuffle back-up that he plays from :19--:23?
A: He fingers a basic chord x-0-0-0-3-3 (with ring finger and pinky) and rocks back and forth between open fourth and second fret/fourth string.
Q: Where does Johnny fret the turn-around run that he plays over the I chord, from :40--:42?
A: he starts on beat two with a triplet on the second string: 3-2-1 on beat three a broken triplet: string 3/fret 3-string 2 open, on beat four a triplet (string/fret): 2/1-2/0-3/0
Q: Where does Johnny fret the triplet fills at 1:33--1:35?
A: First and second string third fret, then starting to rock back and forth between 3rd fret and 5th fret on first string
Q: Where does Johnny fret the concluding chords he plays, from 2:44--2:48, and what are they?
A: all strings open, then a barre chord at the fifth fret, then a barre chord at the third fret, all strings open again and then x-0-2-3-0-0 to x-0-3-4-0-0. The chords are C (IV chord), Bb (bIII chord), G, and G7 (with a chromatic lead in).


BTW, I'm sorry I missed the last puzzle. I had listened to all three songs, but had no opportunity to sit down and play along. Just from the sound of it, I recognised A position for the third tune. I've got to admit that I first thought open G (high bass) for the first and D position standard tuning for the second song.

For the last puzzle before that, I have to find a way how to work on the problem that I was off a third from the correct positions. I just didn't hear it correctly. Maybe I should just listen to lots of guitar/piano duets.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on September 09, 2014, 08:50:27 AM
I got it in Spanish and the boogie bass but in the absence of a guitar no further.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 09, 2014, 09:15:28 AM
I?m sure you?re all right, as Johnny Shines played in Spanish a lot, but just to be different (and without hope of getting it right), I?m going to say:

What playing position/tuning did Johnny Shines use to play the song?

 C standard tuned down to B

 Where is Johnny fretting the shuffle back-up that he plays from :19?:23?
Rocking his second finger from second fret 5th string to 2nd fret 4th string

 Where does Johnny fret the turn-around run that he plays over the I chord, from :40?:42?

Descends from fret 3 1st string via frets 2 and 1 to open 1st string then a bend on third fret of 2nd string to first fret 2nd string, then 2nd fret third string back to first fret second string.

 Where does Johnny fret the triplet fills at 1:33?1:35?

Third fret first  string

 Where does Johnny fret the concluding chords he plays, from 2:44--2:48, and what are they?

First position C chord, then F, F6 (bend on 3rd fret 2nd string) then back to C7
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on September 09, 2014, 11:07:45 AM
Ooops... best tune my guitar to spanish and give it another shot !
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 09, 2014, 12:11:27 PM
In agreement with the folks who go for Open G, capo at 3rd fret and in agreement with Mr Mando on the shuffle back-up at 19--:23 and  the turn-around run that he plays over the I chord, from :40--:42.

For the triplet fills at 1:33--1:35 I'm hearing 3 triplets played on first 2 strings barred at the 3rd fret then a run 5fret, 3rd fret on first string, 3rd fret 2nd string, open 3rd string.  The concluding chords he plays, from 2:44--2:48 I need more time on as they sound really weird and wonderful but what I've got so far is the 3rd, 4th and 6th strings barred at the 5th fret, then moved down to the 3rd fret and finishing with a 4th string 3rd fret, then open 3rd, 4th and 6th strings.  But there's more to it than that I'm sure.

I was lucky enough to see Johnny Shines many years ago at the 100 club in London.  Such a powerful voice.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 09, 2014, 11:35:35 PM
Hi all,
It doesn't look like there will be any more responses on Johnny Shine's "Tennessee Woman Blues", so I'll post the answers to the questions about how the tune was played.
   * Playing position/tuning for the song was C position in standard tuning (though tuned a bit low).  Kudos to Prof. Scratchy, who was the only responder to identify the position correctly this time.
   * The playing position that Johnny Shine used to play the shuffle at :19--:23 requires a pretty big or limber hand.  He uses the same position Papa Charlie Jackson used to play Bb, but moved up two frets, going from X-3-5-5-5-5 to X-3-7-5-5-5 and back to X-3-5-5-5-5.  I reckon the fingering he used was index finger fretting the third fret of the fifth string, third finger barring the top four strings at the fifth fret and little finger fretting the seventh fret of the fourth string where that comes in.  If you re-listen to that section, listen for the highest-pitched note that Johnny Shines plays on those chords--it is a sixth, and it sort of "comes along for the ride" with that long ring finger barre at the fifth fret, on the first string.
   * The little turn-around run that Johnny Shines plays from :40-:42 starts on beat 2 of the eleventh bar of the form.  On that beat two, he plays a descending triplet on the first string, from the third to the second to the first fret there, as Scratchy had it.  On beat three, he does the Lemon Jefferson trick of playing the fourth fret of the second string and the open first string more or less simultaneously, followed by the open first string on the + of the third beat.  On beat four, he plays another triplet, going from the first fret of the first string to the open first string, and then to the first fret of the second string.  On beat one of the twelfth measure, he re-hits the first fret of the second string, going to a G7 on the first two strings, 0-1, starting on the + of that beat.
   * The triplets he plays from 1:33-1:35 are located at the eight fret of the second string and sixth fret of the first string, so that the eighth fret is the fifth of the C chord and the sixth fret is the bVII of the C chord.
   * The chords he plays at the end of the song, at 2:44-2:48 are F, X-X-3-2-1-1, Fm7 or Ab6, X-X-1-1-1-1, C, X-X-5-5-5-X, B, X-X-4-4-4-X, and C, X-X-5-5-5-X

Thanks to all of you who participated, and it's great to see people participating for the first time.  When I first found this song on youtube last week, I was really surprised to hear Johnny Shines playing in C, since I never thought of him as being a C-type player.  I think a lot of what he plays in some of his runs here is reminiscent of Bill Broonzy's playing in C, though much rougher.  It's neat to be surprised by someone you thought you had pegged.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 10, 2014, 01:03:24 AM
At last! Got one right! I saw Johnny Shines many times in the early 70s and never saw him play in C. However, on Kurt Hriczusa's recently unearthed home video of him playing in Vienna, he does have a go at a ragtime progression in C. What took me in the direction of C on this one was the similarity, in a couple of places (and with a wide stretch of imagination) to bits of Memphis Minnie's backing on Chickasaw Train. As others have said, didn't Johnny have the most amazing voice?

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 10, 2014, 04:11:35 AM
Wow! C, tuned low!  I'm gob smacked......I mean he looks such an Open G type of guy! :-)  Really, I thought I had this one nailed apart from the last chords.  Amazing. Thanks again, this is a real education.
All the best,
L
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on September 10, 2014, 05:14:27 AM
Bravo Professor! I don't recall hearing anything to make it seem like it was tuned low!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on September 10, 2014, 10:20:58 AM
Wow.
John, I was going to argue with an expert, but I stopped myself to check your solution. In seems much easier to play in A position standard tuning, capoed at first fret as a few people suggested. I was going post that, but missed the deadline.

It would be helpful to explicitly point out the things that reveal this to be C position.

I think that in A, you can do and achieve everything that Johnny is doing, except the turnaround where he does, as you say, the Lemon Jefferson trick of playing the 4th fret 2nd string against the open 1st string. To me that is the definitive indicator of the playing position.

The ending can be closely approximated in A position like this (chords only, not timing):
| 0  2  x  x   x  0
| 2  3  1  2  1  2
| 2  2  2  2  1  2
| 2  4  1  2  1  2
| 0
|

Another great exercise!

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 10, 2014, 01:05:06 PM
Hi Dave,
There are a lot of indicators that Johnny Shines was playing out of C position.  At the opening of the intro, he's rocking between 5-3 and 3-1 on the first two strings in the treble, suggesting movement back and forth from a I chord at 5-3, voiced 3rd-5th from the second string to the first and the V7 chord at 3-1, voiced 5th-7th.  These two positions are commonly used by players working out of C position, as in John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt With Me".  To get the same sounds relative to A position, Johnny Shines would have to be fretting the double stops at 6-5 and 4-3, going from the third string to the second string.  I wouldn't say that those double stops are not ever used by players in the style, but the use of them is drastically less common than the same sounds in C position.

At about :06 of the intro, John Shines hits a bent II note, resolving it to an unbent II note, all happening over the I chord.  In C position, that is the most common bend employed by people working in that position, with the little finger bending the third fret of the second string and then hitting the same note unbent.  To get the analogous sound in A position, the player would have to bend the fourth fret of the third string, resolving it to the unbent fourth fret of the third string (or open second string).  Such a move is really rare in A position, largely because it is counter-intuitive to do a bend above a finger holding down a barre.  The bend could be free-handed, though, in A position.  Basically, the bend is a C position bend, not an A position bend, though.

The V7 chord that concludes the intro is voiced with a low root in the bass, then up an octave to root-3rd-b7th.  The b7th is the highest voice sounding in the chord.  In A position, this would entail playing an E7 voiced 0-x-2-1-3-X.  Johnny Shine is strumming very freely in his right hand--to avoid hitting the open first string in that E7 chord, he would have to be studiously avoiding hitting it, and he truthfully doesn't sound to be doing anything that carefully.  The V7 chord in C position, G7, would be voiced
3-X-X-0-0-1 to get the same sound.  To my ears, that is clearly the way he gets his sound.  He doesn't hit anything higher than the b7th of the chord, because that is the highest note voiced in the chord, at the first fret of the first string.

At about :58-1:02, Johnny goes to the IV chord in the third verse, the fifth and sixth bars of the form.  He does a shuffle rock in his IV chord, similar to what he does in his I chord, but voiced differently.  His two chords in the IV chord rock are voiced Root-3rd-5th-Root and Root-3rd-6th-Root.  In A position, to play such a rock over the IV chord, D, would involve moving easily and seamlessly from X-5-4-2-3-X to X-5-4-4-3-X, on the interior four strings of the guitar.  I think the first position is implausible, but the ease with which Johnny plays the rocking motion really rules out the possibility.  In C position, the sound of the rock would be achieved by going from an F chord voiced on the top four strings,
X-X-3-2-1-1 to an F6 on the same strings, voiced X-X-3-2-3-1.  Basically, he can hold the F chord down the whole time and just drop his little finger in at the third fret of the second string when he wants to get that 6th note.  It is right under the hand.

There are other indicators which further support the assessment that he was working out of C position in the course of the rendition, but I think what we have up to this point suffices.  Like I said before, I didn't think of Johnny Shines as a player who ever worked in C position, but by the time the intro was over, I knew that was where he was, and everything after that supported that interpretation.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on September 10, 2014, 03:13:55 PM
I'm too lazy a listener, apparently, to pick most of that up. Practice, practice. That was much more detail than I expected, John. I tend to find something close to the sound and then try to work out the major landmarks within it. The nuances you are noticing then would be lost in my version.
Thanks.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 10, 2014, 03:36:55 PM
Hi Dave,
It's one of those "devil in the details" kind of things, I think.  But very often, you only need one little window of hearing to make an identification, and it sounds like for you, the sounding of the fourth fret of the second string against the open first string did the trick.  The kind of detail that I went into is very rarely necessary to make an identification--you'd only go to those kind of lengths if you were still on the fence between a couple of positions/tunings after having listened to a song a good bit.  It's not a bad idea, though, to listen through a song even after you're reasonably sure of your identification, just to make sure that what you hear the person playing is going to be playable and accessible in the position/tuning you've selected.  And you're right, practice is the key, in listening as in playing.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 11, 2014, 02:57:48 PM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The musician is Charles Caldwell, and his song is "Alone For A Long Time", which has one of the most infectious and mysterious signature licks I've ever heard--it's right up there with Frankie Lee Sims' "Lucy Mae" for coolness. 

Charles Caldwell - Alone for a Long Time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_mRqg8nrbU#)

Don't your road look lonesome

When you're all alone

Can't live by yourself

Got to have somebody

Just to touch every night

Road look dark down there

For me to travel all alone

Did you ever start walking

Down that old lonely road

All alone

Don't your road look lonesome

When you're all alone
   

The questions for this one are minimal:
   * What position/tuning is he using to play the song?
   * Where does he fret his signature lick that precedes his singing?  How would you place it relative to the pulse and meter?

Please use only your ears and instruments to figure out your answers to these questions and don't post any responses until Saturday, September 13.  Thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on September 13, 2014, 02:33:15 PM
I believe he's basically just rocking back and forth between an A chord and an E chord in standard tuning E position. The key center would be E, so it's a IV-I movement rather than a V-I.

I seem to hear the Riff starting (on beat 2+) with a hammer on on the fifth string from open to second fret (two sixteenth notes), then (on beat 3) open D string (quarter note), then (on beat 4) 5th string 2nd fret again (quarter note), then (next bar on beat 1) open A string with 2nd fret D string (quarter note), then (on beat 2) D and G strings both at 2nd fret (eighth note), then (on beat 2+) hammer on on the fifth string from open to second fret (two sixteenth notes), then (starting on beat 3) four eighth notes: open D string, 2nd fret D String, then open D string, then 3rd fret low E string, then (next bar beat 1) open low E string and on beat 2 5th and 4th string fretted at the 2nd fret (eighth note), on beat 2+ the Riff starts from the top.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 13, 2014, 06:30:43 PM
Thanks for your reply, mr mando.  I'm going to leave this tune open for responses until Monday morning.  It may be that people are busy this week-end, or perhaps Charles Caldwell's music is not generating that much interest.  In any event, if any of the rest of you want to give the song a shot, I won't be posting answers until Monday.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on September 13, 2014, 08:59:19 PM
I'm in pretty close agreement with mr mando. I do hear a low E on the 'and' of 1 when he hits the A chord.
I think it is important to notate the notes that are played simultaneously. I'll attempt to do tab.

  1+2 + 3+4+ 1+2 + 3+4+ 1+2 + 3+4+
E|----------|----------|----------|
B|----------|----------|----------|
G|----------|2---------|1---------|
D|------0---|2-----020-|2-----0---| etc
A|----02--2-|0---020202|2---02--2-|
E|----------|-0-------3|0---------|


Cool lick.
Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 14, 2014, 04:46:49 AM
E standard tuning. I think the musician is essential fingering a two fingered E chord and achieving the riff by raising and lowering the finger fretting the second fret of strings 5 and 4 as follows:
5 str hammer on 2 fret
open 4 str
5 str 2 fret
4 string 2 fret + 1st fret  3rd str //
(6str open damped)
5str 2 fret
open 4 str
5str 2 fret
open 4 str
5 str 2 fret
4str 2 fret + 1st fret 3rd str//
(6 str open damped)

I think I hear an open damped 6th str at the points shown, but I'm not sure! The emphasis in the riff is on the partial E chord (//) - but I'm not sufficiently literate musically to be able to express it in writing.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 14, 2014, 01:13:38 PM
 Only just got around to this one, away renovating a cottage for the weekend.  I'm hearing E in standard tuning and am getting something close to the signature lick by just fretting the 5th & 4th strings at the 2nd fret. Something like:

E ----------------------------
B------------------------------
G --------_-2-----------------
D ------0---2------0-2-------
A  0h2---2---0h2-----2------
E -----------------------3w--0
   
  The A note on the 3rd string is barely touched I think, with the emphasis being on the E note on the 4th string.  Sometimes he throws in a high E and B on the first and second strings with the low E that ends the lick.  As for placing it relative to the pulse and meter, I haven't got a clue where to start.  Love the tune though.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 15, 2014, 03:36:55 PM
Hi all,
Thanks for the responses on Charles Caldwell's "Alone For A Long Time".  It seems like everyone was pretty much in the same ballpark as to how he played his signature lick and what position/tuning he was working out of.  I think some of the differences in the solutions can be attributed to the fact that he did not play the signature lick exactly the same every time he did it.  Here is what I have for it:
   * Playing position/tuning:  E position in standard tuning.  Everybody had this right.  Good!
   * As to where the lick was fretted and how it sits in the pulse, I have it as follows. 

   +    |      1      +      2      +       3      +      4       +      |      1       +      2      +      3      +      4      +
 grace    Open          2nd             2nd          Open Grace      Open    2nd  Open  2nd  2nd       Open   Riff
 note       4th           fret,            fret,          6th    note        4th     fret,   4th   fret   fret        6th  starts
hammer string        5th              3rd          string hammer,  and     4th   and    3rd   5th    string  again   
from                       string           and                   from         3rd     and   3rd  string  and
0 to 2                                         4th                  0 to 2      strings   3rd strings        4th
on 5th                                       strings               on 5th            strings  and          strings
string                                                                 string                          3rd            open
                                                                                                            fret,           6th
                                                                                                            6th          string
                                                                                                           string

I know some of the solutions had the pick-up note leading into the third beat of the measure.  I hear the note following the grace note hammer as the downbeat of the measure, but there is no way of knowing how Charles Caldwell felt the lick (or even whether he thought of it in those terms).

I'd be interested to know how he worked his right hand in playing this lick.  At first, I thought he did it all with his thumb, but the place in the lick where he strikes the third fret of the sixth string while sounding the open fourth and third strings makes that kind of implausible.  Probably he used thumb and index, a la R. L. Burnside.

Thanks for participating, and I'll post another puzzler very soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 15, 2014, 08:10:05 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  The song is "Poor Little Angel Girl", as recorded by Dennis McMillon in 1949.  It sure sounds to me like he sings "poor little Injun girl", but that's beside the point, I suppose.  I think this is a terrific cut, and it is exciting to discover really strong later East Coast blues performances, like this and the Skoodle Dum Doo and Sheffield tracks we've been listening to recently.  Here is Dennis McMillon's song:

Dennis McMillon-Poor Little Angel Girl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t452gObRw4#)

INTRO

Well, I wonder what's the matter with my poor little old injun girl?
Lord, I wonder what's the matter, poor little old injun girl?
Well, don't nobody know, Lord, she's somewhere in the world

SOLO

Well, the people been tellin' me that she gone on 'cross the sea
Well, the people been tellin' me, goin' on 'cross the sea
If I don't find that woman, you gonna have to bury me

SOLO (spoken:  Play it, man!  Yes, yes!)

I been sittin' down and studyin', do she care for me?
Lord I'm sittin' down studyin', do she care for me?
And if she don't, I'm gon' let her be

SOLO

The questions about "Poor Little Angel Girl" are as follows:
   * What position/tuning did Dennis McMillon use to play the song?
   * Where is he fretting the position he opens the song with, from :00--:07?
   * Where does he fret the revision of his opening position, in his solo, from :51--:52?
   * Where, in a later solo, does he fret what he is playing from 1:48--1:50?
   * Where does he fret the passage from 2:10--2:12?

Please use only your ears and instruments in figuring out the answers to the questions and please wait until Wednesday, September 17, to post your answers.  Thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on September 15, 2014, 08:39:31 PM
I hate to gripe, especially when this is my favorite thread hear by far.

John, your solution is pretty much unreadable, the formatting is so messed up.

Love you though,
Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 15, 2014, 10:33:40 PM
Go down vertically under each increment of the beat and it reads okay, I think, Dave.  There's a gap for some reason half-way down, but the columns hold true below.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Zoharbareket on September 16, 2014, 08:03:22 AM
I feel much too much of a novice to even start figuring these things out, but this is a great GREAT thread!

Johnm, you are an inspiration and a real treasure! Thank you tons!

Zohar
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on September 16, 2014, 08:49:05 AM
It's the text or line wrap in the WC message box that's throwing things off. On my wide screen laptop it more or less lines up, but on my desktop with an old style squarish monitor, it's way off.

John: Try using tab stops for the vertical column alignment in a word processing program, saving it as an RTF file, and posting it as an attachment for those who are having difficulty. Most word processing programs read RTF files.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 16, 2014, 09:56:03 AM
Thanks for the suggestion, Stuart, but it involves about five steps I don't already know how to do, so it's not going to happen.  I'd be better off just tabbing any portion of the song in question, scanning it, saving it as a .pdf and posting it that way.  I'm somewhat loath to use TAB, so I'll probably just describe what is being done in a way that can be communicated via text without worrying about formatting issues.

Thank you for the good words, Zohar.  If you'd like to participate but find the prospect of mapping out where different phrases are played daunting, you might try just answering the question of what playing position/tuning is being used as a point of entry into the process.  It really is the most important question being asked in every instance, because everything else involved in figuring out how to play the song hinges on that initial determination of playing position being correct.  Give it a shot!   
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on September 16, 2014, 12:14:25 PM
Hi  John: Yeah, probably a sequential or linear description with what you are diagramming out placed within might be the easiest way to go. Some of this stuff is second nature to me, but  it's not  for everyone.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 17, 2014, 08:58:39 AM
I'm kicking this one off now, so here goes:
 * What position/tuning did Dennis McMillon use to play the song?
Played in E, standard tuning but he sounds about a half step down to me.
   * Where is he fretting the position he opens the song with, from :00--:07?
I'm getting this sliding up from the 2nd & 4th fret to the 3rd & 5th frets on the 1st & 2nd strings.
   * Where does he fret the revision of his opening position, in his solo, from :51--:52?
Up at the 8th & 9th fret on the 2nd & 3rd string but he's also hitting the 9th fret of the 1st string for a sec and brushing up getting the open E when he pulls off the 9th fret, if that makes sense!
   * Where, in a later solo, does he fret what he is playing from 1:48--1:50?
I'm going to pass on this one for now as I've got to go but will look again later if I get the chance.
   * Where does he fret the passage from 2:10--2:12?
I think he's just fretting at the 2nd on the 3rd & 4th string but also reaching to the 4th fret of the 5th string to get that sort of boogie imitation.  I played around with this at the 7th fret 4th & 5th strings reaching to the 9th fret 4th string but I think it's the first option.
Another bluesman I've not heard before! 
Thanks again,
L
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 17, 2014, 03:24:21 PM
I too will venture E standard on a low tuned guitar.

Where is he fretting the position he opens the song with, from :00--:07
str/fr  2/8 1/0 bending  str 2

Where does he fret the revision of his opening position, in his solo, from :51--:52
adds 1/9>1/7

Where, in a later solo, does he fret what he is playing from 1:48--1:50?
1/15 1/15 1/12/ 1/15 bend 1/12

Where does he fret the passage from 2:10--2:12?
5/0 5/3 5/4 4/2
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on September 17, 2014, 03:37:36 PM
Me too! E position standard sounding approximately Eb.

Sounds a bit John Lee Hooker ish - did he play in standard?

That's all for now though. It's been a long day and I should be practicing something else for friday so I'm not gonna tune down today!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 17, 2014, 05:42:22 PM
Hi all,
Let's extend responses for Dennis McMillon's "Poor Little Angel Girl" an extra day to allow more time for people to respond.  I'll post answers tomorrow night.
It occurred to me that I never did post the text solution to the Charles Caldwell song, so here goes on that.  His signature lick is two measures of four beats each in length.  He begins the lick with a pick-up note on the + of beat four of the measure preceding the downbeat of the lick.  I'll list the notes fretted for the two measures with an indication of what beat on which they fall, or what + of a beat they fall on.

   Beat 4+: Pick-up note, a grace note hammer from open fifth string to second fret of the fifth string
MEASURE ONE:
   Beat 1:  Open fourth string
   Beat 2:  Second fret, fifth string
   Beat 3:  Second fret of fourth and third strings
   Beat 4:  Open sixth string
   Beat 4+:  Grace note hammer from open fifth string to second fret of fifth string
MEASURE TWO:
   Beat 1:  Open fourth and third strings
   Beat 1+:  Second fret, fourth and third strings
   Beat 2:  Open fourth and third strings with third fret of sixth string
   Beat 2+:  Second fret, third string
   Beat 3:  Open sixth string with second fret of fifth and fourth strings
   Beat 4:  Open sixth string
   Beat 4+:  Lick begins again, with grace note hammer from open fifth string to second fret of fifth string, as above.

I hope that is more clear than what I posted before.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Zoharbareket on September 18, 2014, 01:34:55 AM
Thanks John,  I'll try. I'll wait for the next one,  though.....

Z
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on September 18, 2014, 06:39:17 AM
Hi John,

Thanks!  I personally really appreciate the new format you used. I rarely use the site on a full computer screen and on my tablets and phone anyway, the graphical representation are usually so broken or overlapped as to make them indecipherable. I know that I can go log on to a computer to view them but by that point I'm usually distracted and on to something else. So from the standpoint of an almost exclusive tablet/phone user I thank you again :-)

Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on September 18, 2014, 10:34:17 AM
I find that pretty clear too, John. Thanks. I was able to view your previous solution correctly when I put my browser to full screen width (thanks for the suggestion Stuart), but I like this better.
Everybody learns differently, I do well reading tab - I guess I visualize the solution better than talk about it.
The tip for posting tab is to use the 'Teletype' (the Tt button) option when posting it. That was the only way I could get my tab to align correctly. Others may have a different solution.
Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on September 18, 2014, 11:04:21 AM
Question 1) E position
Question 2) Fret 3 1st string, fret 5 2nd string
E|333
B|555
G|
D|
A|
E|

Question 3) from :51--:52 Fret 8 2nd string, fret 9 3rd string
  1 2 3 4
E|   
B|8888888|
G|9999999|
D|
A|
E|


Question 4) from 1:48--1:50 Fret 15 1st string, fret 14 3rd string

Question 5) from 2:10--2:12 1st position A chord: open 5th string with fret 2 4th string,
fret 4 5th string with fret 2 4th string
open 6th with fret 2 5th string
fret 4 5th string with fret 2 4th string

E|        | 
B|        |
G|        |
D|22222222| repeat prev measure
A|0044  44|
E|    00  |


Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 19, 2014, 10:51:18 AM
Hi all,
Here are the answers for Dennie McMillon's "Poor Little Angel Girl".  It really is such a strong performance by him; there's enough material in there for three or four normal blues.
   *  His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as everyone had it--well done!
   *  In the passage from :00--:07, he is brushing his first string open and his second string, very slightly bent, at the 8th fret, as Prof Scratchy had it.  In his first bar, he brushes the two strings with the 8th fret uninflected for 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + .  In measure two, he slides into his 8th fret of the second string on the beat 1 brush stroke--the remainder of that measure is the same as the first measure.  In the third measure, he slides into the eight fret of the second string on the brushes that fall on beats 1, 2, 3 and 4, then brushes the first two strings uninflected on 1 +, 2 +, and 3 +.  On 4 +, he gives up the position and heads down the neck.  The pitches of the two notes he sounds is the same as if he was fretting the second string at the 5th fret and the first string at the third fret, but by getting the pitches where he did, he gives the open first string an odd, open droney sound and is able to slide into and bend the 8th fret of the second string.
   *  In the passage from :51--:52, he is coming from a solo in which he starts out brushing the first two strings in the position described just above.  He breaks out of that position in the second measure of his solo.  On beat 3 of that second measure, he brushes the open first string and the 8th fret of the second string as he has been doing, followed by a brush of the 9th fret of the first string and the 8th fret of the second string on 3 +.  On beat four, he does a light thumb brush of the top four strings, hitting open 4th string, open 3rd string, 8th fret of the second string and open first string, followed by an index brush of the open first string and the 8th fret of the second string on 4 +.  In the third measure of the solo, he repeats what he played on beats 3, 3 +, 4 and 4 + from the second measure, described just above.  This is pretty close to what Old Man Ned described.  The pitch of the 9th fret of the third string that Old Man Ned and Dave had is that of the open first string, which McMillon is interspersing in there right along through the first three measures of this solo.
   *  In the passage from 1:48--1:50,  McMillon is going to his IV chord in a solo.  He frets it just where Dave had it, at the 14th fret of the second and third strings and the 15th fret of his first string, thus taking a normal A7 shape you'd play at the base of the neck (minus the second fret of the fourth string) up 12 frets!  This choice was a real eye-opener for me--I've never heard it done before in a Country Blues tune played out of E position.
   *  In the passage from 2:10--2:12, McMillon is playing over his IV chord in his final verse.  He begins his little boogie pattern with his open fifth string on beat 3 of the measure, hits the second fret of the 4th string on 3 +, on beat 4 hits the 3rd fret of the fifth string, and on 4 + hits the fourth fret of the fifth string.  He goes long on that first measure, adding two beats in which he plays the open 6th string on beat 5, the 2nd fret of the fourth string on 5 +, the 3rd fret of the fifth string on beat 6 and the 4th fret of the fifth string on 6 +.  He repeats the boogie pattern he played on 5 + 6 + to start the next measure of his IV chord.  This is very close to what Old Man Ned posted.

I feel like everybody was really close on these licks.  This is one performance that I think would be worth figuring out from beginning to end, and there aren't all that many performances in the style that I feel that way about.  The way Dennis McMillon occasionally goes long in the middle of a vocal phrase, doing a quick little instrumental response to what he's singing, is really exciting and effective.  It's the kind of thing that would be worth trying to incorporate into one's own phrasing.  You'd have to do it a lot to get it feeling natural, I expect, but I think the musical result would more than justify the work.

Thanks to all who participated, and I'll try to find another good puzzler to post soon.
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 20, 2014, 10:22:48 AM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for those who are interested.  The song is "The Truth", performed by Precious Bryant.  Here it is:

The Truth - Precious Bryant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evSmGl2XD4c#)

Said, I told my baby, a-just the other night
"But if you mistreat me, there gonna be a fight"
REFRAIN:  That is why, that is why
I like the truth, yes, I like the truth,
Yes, I like the truth

I told my baby, a-just the day before
"And if you mistreat me, you're gonna hit the door"
REFRAIN:  That is why, that is why
I like the truth, yeah, I like the truth,
Yes, I like the truth

I said, I told my baby, a-that afternoon
And if you mistreat me, he'll be leavin' soon
REFRAIN:  That is why, that is why
I like the truth, yeah, I like the truth,
Yes, I like the truth, yeah, I like the truth

SOLO

I told my baby, a-just the other day
"And if you mistreat me, you be goin' away
REFRAIN:  That is why, that is why
I like the truth, yeah, I like the truth,
Yes, I like the truth

SOLO

Two questions only this time:
   * What position/tuning did Precious Bryant use to play "The Truth"?
   * What is the chord progression of the song, expressed in the key of the position that she used to play the song?  Don't feel you have to describe the structure of the form, just the chords.

Please use only your ears and instrument to figure out your answers, and please don't post any answers before Monday, September 22, to allow plenty of people a chance to listen and come up with their own answers.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Zoharbareket on September 21, 2014, 11:36:08 PM
Hi there,

Here goes my first shot at this sport:

I think I am hearing Precious Bryant rocking between an A chord played out of the E position (5th fret) and an A chord played out of the D position with a 6th(?) on the bass. For the "that is why" part, it sounds like a D chord played out of the A position (5th fret).

Lovely tune!


(Its the 22nd from where I'm writing...)

Z
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Norfolk Slim on September 22, 2014, 02:50:25 AM
I agree with Zohar. Capo fifth then e position a,  followed by the d.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 22, 2014, 03:53:29 AM
What  I hear is something like:

E position capo 5th fret key of A

A/Fsharpm/A/Fsharpm/A/Fsharpm/A/Fsharpm
A/A6/A/A6/A/A6/A/Bm6
A/Fsharpm/A/Fsharpm/A/Fsharpm/A/Fsharpm

Not sure about the Bm6 but it sounds a bit like x9777x
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on September 22, 2014, 07:43:24 AM
Always the oddball, but I guess that's why I like this thread, I learn lots....

I hear it as G position, capo at 2.  The chord progression from major to relative minor (G, Em) seems more logical to me than playing it in E position and playing E, Cm.....

Also, the chorus part going from a C chord to D allows for those wonderful grace notes we can get with our pinky....but, that's just my ear...

Edited to add:  I must confess that I tried this on my 12 string, so the octave notes I have might affect how I hear this.  I capoed up to 5 and tried the tune out of E, and it does work well there, too...I'll tune the 6 string up to standard and give it a go and see what that sounds like.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 22, 2014, 10:19:41 AM
What a beautiful tune.  I've heard a little of Precious Bryant and what little I've heard I like a lot.  Originally I was getting this in Bb but then realised I was still tuned down a half step from the Dennie McMillon tune.  So yeah, E position out of A.  I'm agreeing with Prof Scratchy on the F# minor ( at the 9th fret?).  The 2 base notes I'm hearing on these chords are A and F# and the second chord just sounds like a minor to me. I've been trying to think how you could get these chords with the respective bass notes by tuning the 5th & 6th strings down so there's less movement in the left hand but I've not come up with anything so far.  The other chord I'm hearing is a D7 with bringing the high B note in on it to give it that sort of rocking sound.  Lovely tune.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on September 22, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
OK, having tried this on the 6 string, I will, with egg on my face, say capo at 5, playing out of E position.

Interesting exercise for me, going from the 12 to the 6 and hearing the different voices.  (If I were to perform this on the 12, I would do it in G position, capo at 2 however....I just like the sound there).
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on September 22, 2014, 11:21:35 AM
I'm agreeing capo 5 and E shape (key of A) alternating with a C#m shape relative to the capo (so F#m on the neck) and there's an A shape with grace notes on the  2nd and 4th frets of the top string (relative to capo). Lovely to play with. Thanks John :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on September 22, 2014, 11:54:43 AM
I think she is playing in open G. Not sure where the capo is - 2nd or 3rd fret? Because I don't know what my guitar is tuned to.
First the chord progression: She is going back and forth between the one chord and the relative minor sixth chord. Then eventually goes to the four chord, sixth chord, and back to one to start over.

She plays at open G, fretting the 5th fret of 1st string to catch the high root. Then she moves up to fret 9 5th string to play the bass note of the six chord, and plays a D7 shape on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd strings at the 8th fret. For the four chord, she plays at the 5th fret, barred across, reaching to the 7th fret on the 1st string for some notes. Then back to fret 9 for the sixth chord, and back to open.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Vermonter on September 22, 2014, 01:39:23 PM
Because no one else has suggested it, I'm going for Capo on 4th fret, played in F position, then slide up to 9th fret D position for the second chord. Beautiful song.
Oh, and the "that is why" section moves to a B chord and then D chord on 7th fret.
It's a guess, anyway.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on September 22, 2014, 02:58:23 PM
Just cleaning up the work of others because I didn't look at this until now, but at least I didn't cheat with software, which usually bars me from posting.

I think I'm in agreement with the Capo on 5th fret, E position folks with the chords relative to the capo being E; C#m (X4X654); A and D. The verse is a slow rocking between the E and its relative minor C#m, then the chorus is a quicker rocking between the A and the D, then using a C#m to get back to the E.

|E|C#m|E|C#m|E|C#m|E|C#m|A/D|A/D|A/D|C#m|E|C#m|E|C#m|E|C#m|

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on September 22, 2014, 07:40:48 PM
I'm going to go out into crazyland and say she's in an altered tuning. We know she has tuned the 6th string up to F before to play out of F. I'm thinking here she may also have tuned the 5th string up to B-flat. She gets the open F on the sixth string with a regular F chord, then a D minor with a little pinky reach for the treble note. For "That is why..." she gets the B-flat bass on the open 5th with the top three strings in a partial: x0x331.

Sorry, edited to add, all of that capoed up to 4th or 5th fret (not sure where my guitar is tuned right now).
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 22, 2014, 07:58:45 PM
Hi all,
I think this one has been open long enough and it has been great to see all the responses.  Here are the answers:
   * Precious Bryant is playing out of E position, sounding in A, so assuming she was tuned to A 440 more or less, she was capoed at the fifth fret.  Congratulations to those of you who chose this as her playing position.
   * The progression of the song is pretty much exactly as Waxwing expressed it in the previous post to this one.  Put in the position in which the song was played, it would be:
   |    E    |    C#m    |    E    |    C#m    |

   |    E    |    C#m    |    E    |    C#m    |

   | A  D/A | A  D/A    | A  D/A  |  C#m    |

   |    E    |    C#m    |    E      |    C#m    |

To put the song in the key in which it sounds, just change all of the E chords to A chords, all of the C#m chords to F#m chords, the A chord to a D chord and the D/A chord to a G/D chord.  As has been noted, the first, second and fourth lines of the form rock between the I chord and its relative minor.  In the third line, the song goes to the IV chord, and I think it's really helpful in terms of hearing to think of the D chord, which relative to the I chord would be a bVII chord, instead, as a IV of IV.  Precious Bryant is basically rocking there between X-0-X-2-2-0 and X-0-X-2-3-2, but she could have gotten the rocking motion on the interior four strings by going from X-0-2-2-2-X to X-0-4-2-3-X.  I think this rocking motion works out particularly pretty in the position she chose to play the song in--the analogous move played out of G position, C rocking to F/C, doesn't have quite as nice a sound to my ear, though others of you may prefer it.

It's neat to have so many people join in on the puzzle.  It's worth pointing out, perhaps, since there are some people participating for the first time, that there is absolutely nothing wrong with posting the same solution as someone else previously posted if you believe that solution correctly answers the questions that have been posed.  I really like "The Truth", both the song and Precious Bryant's performance of it; it has a nice relaxed feel, and elements of Gospel and older R & B that are very appealing to me.

I'll post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on September 22, 2014, 11:52:24 PM
Thanks, Johnm, for explaining about that bVII chord. I did wonder about it, and it did occur to me that it worked because it was the IV of the IV. Are you aware if this is a phenomenon that occurs with some regularity in R&B or any other form of pop music like Tin Pan Alley or something of that sort? Just curious. It's a great structural piece to be aware of.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 23, 2014, 10:47:15 AM
Hi Wax,
I don't think of the rock from the IV to the IV of IV as having a particular stylistic affiliation--rather, it shows up all over the place.  I wouldn't be surprised if it showed up first in hymns.  It's a very natural sort of thing to do, especially when driven by the melody.  And if the same rocking motion has already happened between I and IV, it's especially natural to do the rock from IV to the IV of IV (bVII) chord.  In both instances, you keep the root of the chord you're rocking from, which is also the fifth of the chord you're rocking to, and resolve the upper two voices up by half-step and whole step.  So I, consisting of the I-III-V notes of the scale rocks to IV, which consists of I-IV-VI, and IV, which consists of IV-VI-I rocks to IV of IV, which consists of IV-bVII-II.
The rock from I to IV and then from IV to the IV of IV can be found in Jesse Wadley's "Alabama Prison Blues", which was discussed earlier in this thread at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88043#msg88043 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88043#msg88043) .  The move is implied by the melody of Ma Rainey's "Booze and Blues" and Charlie Patton's covers of that song, "High Sheriff Blues" and "Tom Rushen Blues", as well as Robert Johnson's "From Four Until Late".  I think it also shows up in Marvin Gaye's version of "Can I Get A Witness", and is a staple of pedal steel guitar players in Country music.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on September 23, 2014, 12:16:10 PM
Thanks for the detailed info, Johnm. I guess I glossed over that reference in the Alabama Prison Blues discussion. You're right, tho', the voicing with the A and D chords in standard is particularly catchy, even uplifting, coming after the I-vi. I can hear how it would work well in spirituals and gospel. I'll keep my ear open for it.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 24, 2014, 03:40:03 PM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The song is "Poor And Ain't Got A Dime" as played by Floyd Council, yet another really fine East Coast Blues musician.

Floyd "Dipper Boy" Council (The Devil's Daddy-In-Law) Poor And Ain't Got A Dime (1937) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO5wAZawzm0#) 


The questions about Floyd Council's performance are as follows:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play "Poor And Ain't Got a Dime"?
   * Where is he fretting the chord he plays at :05--:07?
   * Where does he fret the run he plays in triplets from :13--:15?
   * Where does he fret his turn-around at :24--:26?
   * Where is he fretting what he plays in the treble from 1:00--1:04?

SOLO

Say, I was layin' upstairs, layin' on my cold iron bed
Say, I was layin' upstairs, layin' on my cold iron bed
When I received the news, the woman I love was dead

I didn't have no money, then I could not go home
I didn't have no money, then I could not go home
Then I walked to my window, and I dropped my head to moan

Lord, Lord, woman I love is dead and gone
Lord, Lord, woman I love is dead and gone
Yeah, I am broke and hungry, five hundred miles from home

Yeah, hoo-yeah, uh-huh
Yeah, hee-yeah-ah
Yeah, hee-yeah, uh-huh

I'm going down to the river, fall on my bended knee
I'm going down to the river, fall on my bended knee
I'm going to ask the Good Lord to help me if he please

Please use only your ears and instruments in figuring out your answers, and please don't post any answers until Friday, September 26, so that plenty of folks will have a chance to listen to the tune and come up with their own answers.  Thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on September 25, 2014, 07:18:33 AM
Quote
* Where does he fret the run he plays in triplets from :24--:26?

I hear a turnaround at time position 0:24--0:26. Is it possible you're talking about the run from 0:13 to 0:15?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 25, 2014, 08:17:38 AM
Oops, thanks for the catch mr mando.  The quiz works a lot better if I post the questions I intended to post!  I will edit the post to reflect the questions that I intended to ask, and they'll match up better with the descriptions and times.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 26, 2014, 02:02:35 PM
Hi all,
Because I stiffed the questions on the Floyd Council tune in my initial post, and also because there have been no responses thus far, let's extend the response period on the tune, and I can post the answers on Sunday night, if there have been some responses by then.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on September 26, 2014, 02:42:18 PM
Q: What playing position/tuning did he use to play "Poor And Ain't Got a Dime"?
A: Sounds like std. tuning / G Position to me. The turnarounds, the C7 shaped V chord and the sound of the first chord (see next answer) don't indicate an open tuning to my ears.
Q: Where is he fretting the chord he plays at :05--:07?
A: I hear this as x-2-3-(o)-3-1, which is a G7 voicing I've never used or even thought about so far.
Q: Where does he fret the run he plays in triplets from :13--:15?
A: first position, starting on the G string: 0-2-3, then B string 0-1-2, then B string 3, E string o, B string 1, then G string 3, B string o, G string o.
Q: Where does he fret his turn-around at :24--:26?
A: That's the Blind Blake turnaround on the top four strings: 3-o-o-3, 2-o-1-3, 1-o-2-3, o-o-(o-3)
Q: Where is he fretting what he plays in the treble from 1:00--1:04?
A: That was the toughest question for me and took me some time to come up with an answer that I'm pretty sure of: the first bar of the form (1:00 - 1:02) was easy: 4-3 on the G & B strings. for the second bar, he's sliding the two fingers down one fret and adds the ring finger on the high E string 3rd fret but hits just the first and second strings (mainly) for a partial Gdim chord.

I actually wanted to avoid being the first one again to answer another puzzle. But I missed a couple in the last weeks, so I hope nobody's too angry with me for breaking the ice. That's one of my favorite tracks in this thread, btw, so thanks johnm for chosing it.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on September 26, 2014, 04:11:47 PM
I'll take a stab at this one. Having transcribed Fuller's Screamin' and Cryin' the G position in standard jumped out at me and FC is tuned down a step, which I think might be pretty common for him. [Edit - Having read Mr. Mando's post I put a tuner on my guitar. It seems a tad low for standard, but not a whole fret. My guitar musta snuck up a bit as I hadn't put a tuner on it in a while.]

From 0.05-0.07: Sounds like a double stop at 2nd str 3rd ft, 1str 1st ft followed by a lick from 2nd str 1st ft, to 3rd str 3rd ft. bent (possibly into unison with 2nd str. open), to 3rd str. open.

From 0.13 to 0.15: The run starts on the 3rd str open going to 2nd ft to 3rd ft then 2nd str open, to 1st ft, 2nd ft, and 3rd ft, then to open 1st str, back to 2nd str 1st ft, then to 3rd str 3rd fret, to 2nd str open to 3rd str open. A little embellishment on a very similar lick Fuller uses.

From .024 to .026. The turnaround walks down on the 3rd and 2nd string while holding the G at the 3rd fret of the 1st str. Starting from a G chord at XXX433 to XXX323 to XXX213 to XXX003, hitting the 1st string on each up stroke.

From 1.00 to 1.04: This was a little tough for my ears but I think he plays two double stops, starting with 3rd str 4th ft and 2nd str 3rd ft (a B and a D from the I) and then 3rd str 10th ft and 2nd str 8th ft (an F and a G, the rest of the I7).

Listening to this I was amazed at how similar Council's vocal style is to Fuller's.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 27, 2014, 04:18:34 AM
I'm hearing G, in standard tuning too.

For the chord at 05--:07 I'm in agreement with Mr Mando but would add that I think the thumb is getting hook over the top to catch the low G, like 3-2-3-0-3-1.  I always think of this as a Rev Gary Davis chord as his music was the first time I came across this.  Given the similarities to Blind Boy Fuller for this recording I would also suggest a big influence from Rev Gary Davis, if not directly.

For the run, I got:
3rd string open, then 2nd & 3rd fret;
2nd string open, then first and second fret;
2nd string 3rd fret, first string open, then 2nd string 3rd fret;
3rd string 3rd fret, 2nd string third fret, 3rd string open

The turn around at 24--:26:
Chords are G, C, Eb7, G with the bass on the 4th string going down from 3rd to 2nd to 1st frets to open 4th string.  Which I think is what Mr Mando is getting but I recognised this from Rev Gary Davis's playing (She's Funny That Way).

The treble at 1:00--1:04:
Yep, 2nd string 3rd fret and 3rd string 4th fret.  Then drop that down a half step and catch the high G. 

I was seeing this as a Eb7 but I guess you can call it what you like :-)

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 27, 2014, 04:50:31 AM
G standard

x23x31

2/0 3/2 3/3 2/0 2/1 2/2 2/3 1/0 2/3 3/3bend 2/0 3/3bend 3/0

xx3003/xx2013/xx1023

xxx43x/xxx323
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 28, 2014, 03:44:35 PM
Hi all,
It's been more than 24 hours since the last response on Floyd Council's "Poor And Ain't Got A Dime", so I think I'll post the answers.  They are as follows:
   *  Playing position was G position in standard tuning
   *  In the passage from :05--:07, Floyd Council is fingering what I think of as a "double seventh G7", fingered at the beginning of that measure X-2-3-0-3-1.  On beat one, he does a triplet brush of his first two strings while hitting the fifth string in the bass.  On beat two, he re-brushes the triplet on the first two strings, but with the fourth string in the bass.  On beats 3 +, he goes from the first two strings brushed to the first fret of the second string, with the fourth string in the bass and on 4 +, he goes from the bent third fret of the third string going to the open third string against the third fret of the sixth string in the bass.  I think it's entirely possible, as Old Man Ned suggested, that Floyd Council was fingering that third fret of the sixth string all along, with a thumb wrap, but just didn't hit it until the fourth beat.  I think of the voicing as a double seventh G7 because if you look at how the chord is voiced from sixth string to first  (assuming the third fret of the sixth string is fretted), it is voiced
Root-3rd-7th-Root-5th-7th.  There's something very distinctive about the sound of voicing the seventh of the chord on both the fourth and the first string.  Bo Carter used this voicing a lot on his Pop-blues material in C, minus the third fret of the second string, which he chose to leave open.  By doing it that way, Bo freed up a finger in the left hand and didn't have to do a thumb wrap to get the third fret of the sixth string.
   *  Floyd Council's run of triplets from :13--:15 is:  open third string to second and third frets of the third string for the first triplet, open second string to first and second frets of the second string for the second triplet, third fret of the second string to open first string to first fret of the second string for the third triplet, and third fret of the third string to open second string to open third string for his fourth triplet.  Mr mando and Waxwing had this run right on.
   *  The turn-around from :24--:26 finds Floyd Council anticipating his bass brush strokes on the + of beat I, and then progressively brushing X-X-3-0-0-3 on beat two, X-X-2-0-1-3 on beat three, X-X-1-0-2-3 on beat four, resolving to X-X-0-0-0-3 on the downbeat of the next measure.  The chords then are G7/F to C/E to Eb7 to G/D.  Mr mando, Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy all had this.
   *  The move from 1:00--1:04 in the treble is X-X-X-4-3-X going to X-X-X-3-2-3, or G going to G dim7.  As Old Man Ned pointed out, with just hitting those notes on the top three strings, the chord could be either a partial G diminished 7 or a partial Eb7.  I think if you keep those three notes on the first three strings and compare the sound you get by adding the first fret of the fourth string (Eb) versus the sound you get by adding the second fret of the fourth string (E), the E note sounds the better and more appropriate addition to the chord, so to my ears, anyway, the G diminished 7 seems the stronger analysis.

I feel like all who responded did very well on this one.  Every responder had the playing position right, and often a correct response was missed by just one note out of a host of notes, as in the triplet run.  One thing that I really like about Floyd Council's rendition of this song is that he varies his fills and runs throughout his performance.  Certainly, he returns to some runs, but he also introduces some licks and ideas that he only plays once and doesn't return to, which gives his playing a sort of "tip of the iceberg" quality.  I found myself wondering how much other stuff he had in his musical bag of tricks.  Hearing some tracks by Floyd Council and Dennis McMillon, as well as tunes by the Trice Brothers and Bull City Red makes me realize that a lot of these East Coast players who I think are often thought of as sort of second echelon musicians were, in fact, very, very strong in what they did, both playing and singing, as well as having a lot of originality in what they did.  They were by no means just a bunch of Blind Boy Fuller imitators.  If you enjoyed the Floyd Council cut and the Dennis McMillon track we looked at recently, all of the early tracks by those two artists, as well as those by Rich and Willie Trice, Frank Edwards, Sonny Jones, Roosevelt Antrim and the Cedar Creek Sheik can be found on the JSP set, "Blind Boy Fuller, Vol. 2".  No home should be without it.

Thanks to those who participated, and I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on September 29, 2014, 08:34:12 AM
I completely agree with your rating of the players you mentioned, johnm! There's nothing second rate about them. There are also many players from other regions that are equally obscure and might be considered epigones of bigger stars, like e.g. Louie Lasky. But many of them are found to have such a strong and individual characteristic in their playing, if you only thake the time and effort to listen to them.

That's one of the additional benefits of this thread, that you really have to listen intensively!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 29, 2014, 01:05:23 PM
Hi all,
I am glad you are enjoying the thread, mr mando.  I'm certainly a believer in listening intensively.  You get so much more out of music that way.

I've got a new puzzler for anyone who is interested.  The song is "Sun Don't Shine" by Teddy Williams, and there are just two questions:
   * What playing position/tuning is Teddy Williams using to play the song?
   * How and where does he play his signature lick over the I chord?

Teddy Williams - Sun Don't Shine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OO28d2JfS0#ws)

Oh mama, mmmmm, I cried all night long
Oh mama, now, cried all night long
I ain't had no lovin', honey, since you been gone

Oh, sun don't shine like it used to shine
Oh, the sun don't shine like it used to shine
Used to shine in your door, now it shines in mine

Where it ain't no lovin', then ain't no gettin' along
Where it ain't no lovin', then ain't no gettin' along
'Cause somebody done been here, stole my woman and gone
 

Please use only your ears and guitars to figure out the answers to the questions--no transcription software, and please wait until Wednesday morning, October 1, before posting your answers to the questions so that plenty of people get a chance to hear the song and form their own answers to the questions without being influenced by early responses.  Thanks to all who have participated for observing the guidelines, it really makes the process work better for everyone, I think.
All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 01, 2014, 07:17:08 AM
I'm going to say Spanish capoed at 3rd fret. The lick? Not so sure (as usual), but it sounds a bit like first string pull off frets 3-2-0 followed by hammer on 5th string third fret.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on October 01, 2014, 08:17:52 AM
I'm agreeing with Scratchy on this one.

The tuning just really sounds Spanish, and B flat (capo 3) is the key...the lick sounds like, as Scratchy said, a descending 3,2,0 on the first string, but the hammer to me sounds like a 3rd string, 3rd fret ( a flattend 3rd).

Maybe I need to keep listening...

(Edited to change 2nd to 3rd.  I can't count some days)....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 01, 2014, 11:29:50 AM
This one's really been puzzling me.  It sounds so simple, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but I just can't get my head around what he's doing.  All I've got is that it's in Bb, most likely Open G tuning capoed at the 3rd as has been suggested and it has a 'minor' feel about it.  I've also been tuning down a whole step and playing out of a C shape but I'm more include to go with the open G tuning.  For the I chord he's hitting the 3rd fret 1st string to get the high note and 3rd fret 3rd string to open string at some point and hitting the open 5th string but putting it all together is doing my head in.  Great recording though. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Norfolk Slim on October 01, 2014, 01:56:02 PM
Im with the Spanish tuning cao 3 crowd.  That interval in the bass note (on the 1 chord) just shouts open G (A bit like McDowell's rhythm bit on a few short lines).

Closest I can get to the lick is 3rd fret first string then first string open.  Possibly with finger and thumb alternating so the thumb plays the open first string note (i.e. the secoind treble note in th he lick) to get the rhythmic effect.  Possibly with odd slight brushes of the second stirng...

Maybe  :D

Really like the tune.  Trancy.
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on October 01, 2014, 04:21:27 PM
The song is "Sun Don't Shine" by Teddy Williams, and there are just two questions:
   * What playing position/tuning is Teddy Williams using to play the song?

Standard tuning, A position - the IV chord cinches it for me

   * How and where does he play his signature lick over the I chord?

Bar the A chord at the 2nd fret with the index finger, fret the 3rd fret of the 5th string with the 2nd finger, then he pulls off to the open 5th string, following with a thumb brush on the A chord. The treble lick starts on the 3rd fret of the 1st string, followed by the open 1st string played along with the thumb brush on the A chord.

I think his Down Home Blues would make a good puzzler!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on October 01, 2014, 05:18:15 PM
Spanish - open G, capoed 3rd fret.

The picking/syncopation on this is really challenging, partly because he varies the length of his bars - sometimes 6 beats long. Hard to tell where 1 is.
I am trying to separate the guitar into three distinct parts, but I can't get my fingers to play them right. Bass, middle, and treble parts.

The bass line is like this in general:
Play the open 5th string on the 'and' of the second beat of the measure The last eighth note of the measure is fretted on the 3rd fret, 5th string, and then pulled off to play the open 5th string on the down beat of the next measure.

The middle part, open 3rd and 4th strings, are struck on the 'and' of the 1st beat, then directly on the 3rd and 4th beats.
 
The occasional high part is fretted at the 3rd fret, 1st string, pulled off to the open 1st string. I think this part starts on the 'and' of the 3rd beat of the measure.

Now I'll go read the other solutions  :)

Dave

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on October 01, 2014, 06:13:33 PM
Gotta go with Frankie on this one - A standard. The V chord has that E sound as he walks up to it, and I think there's an open D string sounding during the little lick at the very end. That pull-off off of the first string third fret is like a pull-off to nowhere!
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 02, 2014, 03:38:39 AM
Beginning to get the hang of this now: if I think it's it in Spanish, it's actually in A! Yes, indeed it is!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Norfolk Slim on October 02, 2014, 07:02:49 AM
If Scratch is now going A, then its definitely G so Im sticking with that :-)

The IV chord sounded to me like it was barred at the fifth rather than open, which encouraged me towards the G but Im at work and can't relisten / experiment with A at the moment.

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 02, 2014, 09:23:45 AM
In the end, NS, we folk with cloth ears have to trust those with real ears!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Norfolk Slim on October 02, 2014, 09:45:25 AM
In the end, NS, we folk with cloth ears have to trust those with real ears!
Enter Mr Miller....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on October 02, 2014, 09:50:13 AM
I'm sticking with B flat and hoping I'm right....but it could that I need to break out the Snark and see how bad I'm out of standard...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 02, 2014, 10:11:00 AM
Hi all,
Teddy Williams' "Sun Don't Shine" is a tough one, without a doubt.  Indeed, I don't think it is possible to make the determination of playing position/tuning solely on the basis of how things lay out over the I chord, because all of the activity in the left hand over the I chord would happen at the third fret of the fifth and first strings whether you were playing in Spanish or A position in standard tuning!  That's like a definition of a tough identification, as far as I'm concerned.  In such an instance, the identification requires close listening to the IV and V chords, as Frank and Chris mentioned.
   * The playing position for "Sun Don't Shine" is A position in standard tuning as Frank and Chris had it.  The things that happen in the IV and V chords that seal that identification are as follows:  If you listen to the IV chord around 1:37, you can hear that it is voiced as a D chord in standard tuning, and Teddy Williams is doing a thumb roll from his open fourth string to the second fret of the third string, hitting the second fret of the first string, and brushing the third and second strings fretted at the second and third frets, respectively, with his thumb.  The identifications for the V chord are even more conclusive.  At 2:00, Teddy Williams brushes, in the interior strings, the root of the V chord and its third on the next higher string.  In A position standard tuning, those two notes would live at the second fret of the fourth string and the first fret of the third string.  In Spanish, they would live at the seventh fret of the fifth string and the fourth fret of the fourth string, a very non-intuitive and implausible choice--not hand-friendly, that's for sure.  Also, from 2:07--2:08, Teddy Williams goes from the root of the V chord to the root of the IV chord  on the interior strings.  In A position, standard tuning, that involves moving from the second fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string.  In Spanish, it would entail going from the open fourth string (or the seventh fret of the fifth string) to the fifth fret of the fifth string.  In either instance, it ends up being more trouble than would make it a likely choice to play.

"Sun Don't Shine" reminds me of the very first song in this thread, Andrew Dunham's "Sweet Lucy Woman", in that you have to listen to pretty much the entire rendition to get the evidence needed to make a solid playing position/tuning identification.  In general, though, in picking between Spanish and A position in standard tuning, if the player hits a low root in the bass for the IV chord, the playing position is probably A position in standard tuning.  The one exception would be if a player was obviously barring the IV chord at the fifth fret and hitting the root on the fifth string, as in Jesse Wadley's "Alabama Prison Blues" or Joe Callicott's version of "Roll and Tumble".  As Simon pointed out, that's how he was hearing Teddy Williams play his IV chord.
   * It is really hard to say just how Teddy Williams was getting his signature lick, and especially that heavy emphasis on the third string on the second and fourth beats of the measure.  I think part of getting that sound requires the use of an unwound  or plain third string, to get that whangy, piercing tone.  This is my best bet as to how Teddy Williams played the lick.
   The thumb anticipates the downbeat of the lick, striking the open fifth string on the + of beat 4 of the measure preceding the downbeat of the lick.  Teddy Williams does a thumb roll from that open fifth string to the second fret of the fourth string, landing it on beat 1 of the signature lick measure.  On the + of beat 1, he picks the third fret of the first string, choking it immediately after picking it so it has no sustain.
   On beat 2, he keeps his thumb moving towards the treble, and really lands hard on the second fret of the third string, letting it sustain.  On the + of beat two, he brings his thumb back and picks the third fret of the fifth string.
   On beat 3, he pulls off the third fret of the fifth string to the open fifth string, simultaneously picking the second fret of the third string with his finger.  That second fret of the third string that falls on beat three is much weaker than the same note on beats 2 and 4.
   On beat 4, he hits the second fret of the third string with his thumb, letting it sustain (as the rendition goes along, he also brushes the second fret of the second string on beat 4, too).  On the + of beat 4, he goes back to the open fifth string to start the lick again.

Thanks to all who participated in this one.  It's great to see the back-and-forth in the discussion, too.  I sure like this song, and the more I listen to it the more I like it.  I'll try to find another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 02, 2014, 02:06:43 PM
Thanks for the detailed explanation John.  I wondered off from the path and got lost in the long grass on this one.  Much appreciated.
L
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 03, 2014, 04:05:25 PM
Hi all,
Here is a new puzzler for those of you who are interested, and a kind of different one.  The song is "I See God In Everything" as played and sung by E. C. Ball and Orna Mae Ball, with E.C. playing the guitar and Orna Mae the pump organ, I believe (though it may be an accordion).  Here is their performance of the song.

E.C. Ball & Orna Ball "I See God in Everything" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkVFZUmOIxQ#)

Here are the lyrics, with E. C.'s vocal responses shown parenthetically where they occur.

When I stand and watch the little birds go flying high
Each tiny one (reminds me) re- (of my dear Lord) mind me of the blessed Lord
Evening when I watch the sun set in the Western sky
I see the beau- (the beauty) ty (of my dear Lord0 see the beauty of my Lord

REFRAIN: I see God in everything, on the land and the deep blue sea
In the fields, the meadows, and the pastures green
In the stars that twinkle at night, that big yellow moon
The oldest re- (the wonders) deem (of my dear Lord) wonders of the blessed Lord

SOLO

Shen I watch the rolling waves come dashing to the shore
Each mighty one (reminds me) re (of my dear Lord) minds me of the blessed Lord
When I see the pretty flowers blooming around my door
I see the beau- (the beauty) ty (of my dear Lord) see the beauty of my Lord

REFRAIN: I see God in everything, on the land and the deep blue sea
In the fields and meadows, and the pastures green
In the stars that twinkle at night, that big yellow moon
The oldest re- (the wonders) deem (of my dear Lord) wonders of the blessed Lord

The questions are:
   * What playing position/tuning is E. C. using to play the song?, and
   * What is the chord progression of the song, verse and chorus, expressed in the position that E. C. uses to play the song (NOT in the key in which the song sounds)?

Please don't post any answers until Sunday, October 5, and I'll post answers on Monday, October 6.  Please use only your ears and instruments to figure out your answers.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 06, 2014, 09:20:07 AM
Hi all,
It looks like Roi is the only responder  on "I See God In Eveything", and he identified the playing position and chord progressions of the song, verse and chorus, right on the money.  Well done, Roi! 

One interesting aspect of the phrasing of the song is that in the verse, each line ends with a single six-beat measure to allow for Orna's response line followed by two "breath catcher" beats before starting the next line.  The phrasing for the chorus is more square, utilizing four beat measures throughout, with the exception of the very last measure.  As is common practice in Bluegrass songs that have "dwells" in the sung verses, the extra beats are jettisoned for E. C.'s solo, which squares up everything in four-beat measures.

I will find and post another puzzler soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 06, 2014, 02:51:05 PM
Hi all,
I've got another puzzler for any interested takers.  The song is "Smokey Mountain Blues", performed by Wallace Chains, who turns out to be the first repeat performer in this thread.  Back on page 7 of the thread, his performance of "My Poor Mother Keeps On Praying For Me" was used for a puzzler.  He was a very distinctive guitarist, recorded at a prison in Texas, and seems to have been one of those players who covered a lot of ground in terms of what he was able to do, positions he was comfortable working in, etc.  Here is "Smokey Mountain Blues":

https://youtu.be/_DE4vknvBQo

I said, these smokey mountains, they are dangerous place to so
Said, I'm goin' up on that mountain and knock up on my baby's door

Now, and I've got a woman and she lives way out up on that hill, oh Lord,
I've got a woman, she lives way out up on that hill
She may drive me away, man, but I don't b'lieve she will

I'm goin' up on that mountain and knock up on my baby's door
I'm goin' up on that mountain and knock up on my baby's door
And if she drive me away, I know she don't want me no more

I'm goin' up on that mountain, and I may not come back down
I'm goin' up on that mountain, and I may not come back down
You can tell all my friends I'm on my last go-round

Baby, you may never see my smiling face no more
Baby, you may never see my smiling face no more
But if you see my baby, tell her that I hate to go

And my girl got a diamond, shine like the rising sun
And my girl got a diamond, shine like the rising sun
She said, "You come back to Texas, Lord, man, I'll buy you one."

The questions on "Smokey Mountain Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Wallace Chains use to play the song?
   * Where in the form does his rendition start?
   * Where does he finger the two chords he plays at the beginning of his rendition, from :00--:02 and from :03--:05
   * There does he finger the three positions he plays over his I chord, from :20--:29?
   * Where does he finger the V7 chord he plays from 1:06--1:07?
   * Where does he fret the running passage from 1:08--1:10?

Answer as few or as many of the questions as you care to, to participate, and please use only your ears and instrument to figure out your answers.  Please don't post any answers until the morning of Wednesday, October 8.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 08, 2014, 11:50:17 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers on the Wallace Chains cut?  Ain't but one question been answered so far.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 08, 2014, 01:13:37 PM
I've had very little time to listen to this but here goes....
Playing out of G in regular tuning
Rendition starts on the IV chord (C/C7)

Where does he finger the two chords he plays at the beginning of his rendition, from :00--:02 and from :03--:05?
Not sure but may come back to this in a sec..

Where does he finger the three positions he plays over his I chord, from :20--:29?  plays D shape up at the 7th fret, slips down a fret, back up again and then moves the shape up to the 10th.

Where does he finger the V7 chord he plays from 1:06--1:07?
Sounds like it may be open first string, 1st fret 2nd str; 2nd fret 3rd str but then does he slide up to a D7 (C7 shape moved up 2 frets) where he can reach the run
for the passage from 1:08--1:10?
This goes 1st string: 6th fret to 5 to 3; 2nd string 6th fret to 3rd; 3rd string 5th fret hammer from 3rd to 4th fret; 4th string 5th fret.

Back to the two chords he plays at the beginning of his rendition.....Nah....I'm struggling with this....first notes an E (4th string)? so I'll go for a standard C but not sure where he fingers the next bit.

Not got a lot of faith in the above.  My ears have been like mush this week.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on October 08, 2014, 01:21:24 PM
I first dabbled around with G6 tuning, but the sound of the IV chord made me change my mind, so I basically agree with roig (how could I not with a high professional :) ).
Q: What playing Position/tuning did Wallace Chains use to play the song?
A: Standard tuning down a whole step/ A position
Q: Where in the form does his rendition start?
A: on bar 5 (IV chord in the 12 bar form)
Q: Where does he finger the two chords he plays at the beginning of his rendition, from :00--:02 and from :03--:05
A: x-x-4-2-1-0 and 1-x-0-2-1-1
Q: There does he finger the three positions he plays over his I chord, from :20--:29?
A: 0-0-x-9-10-9, 0-0-x-8-9-8 and 0-0-x-12-13-12
Q: Where does he finger the V7 chord he plays from 1:06--1:07?
A: 0-2-2-4-3-4
Q: Where does he fret the running passage from 1:08--1:10?
A: String/Fret (starting on beat 1+): 1+:st1/f8, 2:st1/f7, 2+:st1/f5, 3+:st1/o, 4:st3/f5, 4+:st2/f2, 1:st3/f2
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on October 08, 2014, 01:23:21 PM
Hi all.

After a very busy time moving us to a new apartment, I finally seem to have some time for music! Here's what I'm hearing on this one.

Quote
* What playing position/tuning did Wallace Chains use to play the song?

At first I was thinking G position in standard tuning, but since there appears to be a low fifth on the 6th string, and the root on the 5th string rings out when he plays an I chord in upper positions, I?ll agree with Roi on A position, standard.   

Quote
* Where in the form does his rendition start?

Sounds to me like he?s starting on the IV chord, on bar 5 in the 12 bar blues form.

Quote
* Where does he finger the two chords he plays at the beginning of his rendition, from :00--:02 and from :03--:05

I think I?m hearing a IV9 chord: X-X-4-5-5-5, followed by a IVm7, X-X-0-7-6-8, with maybe a change in the bass, from the open D string to the 7th fret D-string.
 
Quote
* Where does he finger the three positions he plays over his I chord, from :20--:29?

I?m hearing the two lowest string being alternated open, on 4th string is muted, I believe, and on the top three strings you have 9-8-9; to 8-7-8; and then 12-10-12.

Quote
* Where does he finger the V7 chord he plays from 1:06--1:07?

I?ll suggest something like 0-X-2-4-3-4.

Quote
* Where does he fret the running passage from 1:08--1:10?

Starting on the 5th position, from a D7 chord: 0-0-0-5-7-8, then a walk down on the top string to 7th and 5th frets, then changing postion while playing the open 1st string, followed by the 2nd string frets  1 to 2, and then followed by the long A chord.

Looking forward for the verdict

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on October 08, 2014, 01:47:15 PM
What with grandkids, dogs, herself and all the household chores, about as far as I got with this is G, standard tuning.  The opening on the IV chord others say sounds right, but that is just parroting their remarks.  Life sure gets in the way of living, sometimes.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 08, 2014, 04:24:59 PM
Sorry I haven't had time for a go at this one! Have been frantically busy in preparation for bnemerov visit to Scratchy Towers (if he ever gets here, having missed his connection). History repeats, Johnm....

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 08, 2014, 11:57:17 PM
Hi all,
Thanks for all of the responses, including those from Ross and Scratchy who had time constraints that prevented them from being able to participate fully.  Here are the answers to the questions on Wallace Chains' "Smokey Mountain Blues". 
   *  Playing position was A in standard tuning, though tuned a full step low, as several of you had it.
   *  He does begin playing in the fourth bar of his first verse, over his IV chord, once again as a number of you had it.
   *  The two chords he opens up with I found to be real ear-catchers, and unusual.  He begins with a D7(9) chord voiced X-X-4-5-3-0.  The notes make it a D9 chord as Pan had it, but Chains very craftily uses the open first string to get his 9 note.  He uses this basic configuration for all of his IV7 chords throughout the song, though at least once he frets his first string at the fifth fret, giving himself a D7 chord voiced X-X-4-5-3-5.  The second chord is an F chord voiced on the four interior strings, X-3-3-2-1-X.  Hitting that chord with the C note in the bass really gives it an interesting dark color.  For the remainder of the song, he plays a more conventional F chord, just fingering the top four strings and sometimes hitting the open fifth string against it, X-0-3-2-1-1.  The use of the bVI chord, F in the key of A, has much the same effect as going to a IV minor chord.  In his later verses, Chains really leans on the F# in the D7 chord, the fourth fret of the fourth string, resolving down into the F natural note in the F chord, at the third fret of the fourth string.
   * The three positions from :20--:29 are just as mr mando had them:  Open sixth and fifth strings, 9-10-9 on the first strings resolving down by half-step to 8-9-8, back up to 9-10-9 and then up three frets to 12-13-12. 
   *  The V7 (E7) chord that he fingers from 1:06--1:07 is one that he uses throughout his rendition.  It's a neat sort of hybrid fingering that I've seen Honeyboy Edwards and Bill Broonzy do on film: X-2-0-1-3-4.  In that measure, his thumb is hitting only on beats one and three, and he's brushing the second fret of the fifth string and the open fourth string.  He brushes the top two strings on beat 2 and 2+, and on 4+ he slides from the third fret of the second string to the seventh fret of the second string, starting the run that follows in the next measure.
   *  The run that he plays from 1:08--1:10 in bar 10 of the form is as follows:
     On beat one, he brushes the sixth and fifth strings open
     On 1+, he picks the 8th fret of the first string
     On beat 2, he picks the seventh fret of the first string and the seventh fret of the third string simultaneously
     On 2+, he picks the fifth fret of the first string, tying it into
     Beat 3, he hits the fifth fret of the third string, with the fifth fret of the first string still sustaining
     On 3+, he hits the open first string
     On 4, he hits either the first fret of the second string or the fifth fret of the third string, as mr mando had it
     On 4+, he picks the second fret of the second string
     On beat one of the eleventh measure of the form, he pinches the second fret of the third string against the open fifth string in the bass.
   Mr mando had this run spot on with the exception of the notes falling on the seventh and fifth frets of the third string.  They really give the run a neat sound, harmonizing it that way.  This run reminds me a lot of one that Otis Harris played on "You Like My Loving", which I know a number of you are familiar with and may have played.

Wallace Chains certainly was a spiffy guitar player, with some neat original sounds and clever ways of getting around on the neck.  A position in standard tuning was very heavily mined by the early Texas blue players, so it is especially impressive in a way to hear a player from there doing so many things that don't really sound like anybody else.  He was an inventive musician.

Thanks to all who participated, and I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 10, 2014, 08:41:40 AM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler--sorry that it took me a while to find one.  The song is "French Blues", as performed by Frank Evans, who evidently was recorded by Alan Lomax in Mississippi.  He continues in our trend of really outstanding musicians showing up on field recordings.  Here is "French Blues", and I should note that the sound drops out altogether for a moment in the middle of the track.

Frank Evans - French Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLFsicH3_a0#ws)

Took that baby down to the Worldly [sic] Fair
And I took that baby down to the Worldly Fair
Aw, she's so good-lookin', I swear, she could not stay there

Tell me, tell me, what you tryin' to do
Whyn't you tell me, tell me, what you tryin' to do
Aw, you must be tryin', tryin' to break my heart in two

Tell Barrelhouse Jordy, shut the piano down
Tell Barrelhouse Jordy to shut the piano down
I ain't got no blues, and I don't want to hear them sounds

If I get drunk, who's gon' carry me home?
If I get ---
Seems like every body in the word is down on me

Tell me, tell me, what's the matter now
Whyn't you tell me, tell me, what's the matter now
Whyn't you tell me, tell me, what's the matter now

Blues was whiskey, stay drunk all the time
If the blues was whiskey, I'd stay drunk all the time
If the blues was whiskey, I would stay drunk all the time


The questions on "French Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Frank Evans use to play "French Blues"
   * Assuming that a capo operates like a zero fret or the nut, where did Frank Evans fret his IV chord phrase from :08-:11, and how did he articulate the phrase in his right hand? 
   * Where did he fret his V7 chord at :15?

As always, please use only your ears, instruments and past experience in determining your answers, and please don't post any answers until Sunday morning, October 12.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on October 10, 2014, 03:01:27 PM
Always loved this one!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on October 10, 2014, 03:20:13 PM
Very similar to I'm a Little Mixed Up by Betty James.
http://youtu.be/8bAPh81WH40 (http://youtu.be/8bAPh81WH40)

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 10, 2014, 07:28:53 PM
"French Blues" is a new one to me, uncle bud, but I agree with you--I'm kind of smacked on it.  What a great tune.  And boy, are you right, Dave, it really is quite a lot like "I'm A Little Mixed Up".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 10, 2014, 08:19:53 PM
Hi all,
I've been going back and trying to complete lyric transcriptions on all the songs in this thread.  Most of them are done, but I've been working on "Ding Dong Ring", performed by unknown and recorded by Lawrence Gellert, a very sophisticated performance, and would appreciate some help with the bent bracketed passages in the transcription.  The post is located at http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88735#msg88735 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88735#msg88735) .
Thanks for any help.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on October 10, 2014, 09:50:37 PM
Johnm, sounds like the last line is "Said the sun shine down on you like a burnin' hell." I can't make out the other, which seems likely a place name.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 10, 2014, 10:05:54 PM
Thanks for the help, John C.!  I have made the change.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 12, 2014, 06:01:45 AM
Missed the last one, so I'll have a go this time! I'm going to say E position standard tuning, capoed at the sixth fret and sounding in Bflat. The IV chord phrase is second string fifth fret and third string sixth fret, dropping in the seventh note on second string eighth fret. The V7 chord sounds to me like he's playing a regular B7 in first position but with a bent note at first string third fret.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on October 12, 2014, 10:40:06 AM
A: I agree with the Prof that "French Blues" has to be in E Position / Standard tuning capoed up 6 frets.
Q: Where did Frank Evans fret his IV chord phrase from :08-:11, and how did he articulate the phrase in his right hand?
A: relative to the capo rocking between st3/f9 and st2/f7, then st3/f9 and st2/f8, then again st3/f9 and st2/f7, and then a little run st3/f9, st2/f8, st1/f0, st2/f0 hammer f2, st1/f0. SOunds like he's using only his right hand thumb for the third and second strings and his right hand index exclusively for the first string.
Q: Where did he fret his V7 chord at :15?
A: x-2-x-2-0-3 (in agreement with Prof Scratchy)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on October 12, 2014, 02:23:47 PM
Hi all

Agreed with Prof Scratchy and Mr. Mando on E-position, standard tuning, capoed at sounding around B flat.

It sounds to me. like the IV chord lick could be played at the two top strings, 1st string fretted at 2nd fret, and then changed to the 3rd, against the 2nd string fretted at the 5th fret. Both strings are then played open, to finish the lick, before returning to the I chord. I'd assume he used his thumb and index fingers on the right hand, to play the lick?

I believe Mr. Mando nailed the V7 chord, with the augmented 5th.

Cheers

Pan



Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on October 12, 2014, 04:43:13 PM
Like Pan, I don't see why the 0:08-0:11 lick wouldn't be played on the 1st and 2nd strings.

I hear it as starting on the + of 4 at the 2nd str./5th ft., then 1st str/2nd on the 1, 2nd str/5th on the +, 1st str/2nd on the 2, rest on the +, 1st str/3rd on the 3, 2nd str/5th on the +, 1st str/3rd on the 4, and then repeating, 2nd str/5th on the +, 1st str/2nd on the 1, 2nd str/5th on the +, 1st str/2nd on the 2, rest on the +, 1st str/3rd on the 3, then open 1st str on the + and open 2nd str on the 4.

The timing is essential when thinking about the right hand, since, if the thumb was striking the 2nd string and the index was striking the first string that would mean the index was on the beat and the thumb on the +, which seems unlikely to me, as does striking the 1st str. with the thumb and the 2nd with the index.  Since much of the rest of the song sounds to me like down-up strumming in the treble, down on the beat and up on the +, this presents two possibilities in my mind. One is that the entire song is played with a flat pick, and I can't really hear any strong evidence against this. Second, if someone does hear a bass note and a treble note played in unison that could not be strummed with a flat pick, I would suggest he is playing in a non-opposing style, where, if the thumb and index are striking together they are striking down in parallel on the beat and the index, when alone, is striking down on the beat and up on the + throughout. One tell for this kind of playing, I think, is hearing a lot of up strokes on the 1st and sometimes 2nd strings on the +(s), for instance in the playing of Henry Thomas, which would require a lot of tiringly fast picking with the index if it were only striking upward, pinching with the thumb on the beat, but becomes more relaxed if the index is playing down and up. Also in this style of playing it is possible to use the index finger as a flat pick, even supporting it with the thumb, as if a flat pick were present, for more precision. The lick is quite easily played this way, striking down on the 1st string on the beats and up on the 2nd string on the +(s) until the final two open notes, where the 1st string is on the + and the 2nd string on the beat.

Wax

P.S. Johnm, I think roig was making fun of himself as "highly professional". Maybe you were just kidding him back?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on October 12, 2014, 07:24:40 PM
Rereading mr mando's post I guess it is possible to play the notes entirely with the thumb by following through, from the 2nd string through the 1st, but it would require pretty quick recovery and good accuracy to get the lick so precisely. It still seems much easier to me, and more in keeping with the rest of the piece, with a flat pick or with index finger as pick. But I believe guitarists are capable of almost anything with practice, hence such idiosyncratic right hand playing as Snooks Eaglin. So who really knows?

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 12, 2014, 10:29:48 PM
Hi all,
Thanks to all who responded to the Frank Evans "French Blues" puzzlers, and it seems a good time to post the answers.  This piece was a new one to me, and finding the songs in this thread has made it apparent to me that I need to acquaint myself with the field recordings of this music that were made in the 30s through the 80s in a more thorough way.  There really is so much great stuff.
Here are the puzzler answers:
   * Frank Evans did play the piece out of E position in standard tuning, capoed up around the sixth fret, in Charley Jordan territory.  Everyone had this right--good on you!
   * Frank Evans' IV chord phrase from :08--:11 in his opening solo was fretted as follows. 
   * For the entire two-measure phrase, he plays the + of each beat on his open first string, picking it with his index finger.  With his thumb, he strikes a note on every beat of the two measure phrase, and they are, in the first measure, the 7th fret of the second string on beats one and two and the 8th fret of the second string on beats three and four.  In the second measure, he hits the 7th fret of the second string on beats one and two, the 8th fret of the second string on beat three and does a hammer from the open second string to the 2nd fret of the second string on beat four.  Note that the pitches of these notes are the very same pitches (with the exception of the triplet on beat four of the second measure) as those proposed by mr mando, Pan and Wax in their solutions, but by getting the higher pitched notes on the second string and droning on the open first string, the right hand becomes greatly simplified, allowing for the thumb to strike the strongly emphasized fretted notes on the beat on the second string while the index finger simply plucks the weaker +s of each beat on the open first string. 

The underlying triplet feel gives the division of the beats a long-short, long-short, long-short, long-short feel, with the notes falling on the beat having the duration of the first two notes of the underlying triplet and the + of the beat that the index is picking being the third note of each underlying triplet.  Only in the fourth beat of the second measure of the IV chord, with the hammer to the second fret of the second string followed by the open first string are all three notes of the underlying triplet sounded.
Frank Evans' right-hand approach on this song is amazing in its consistency.  Almost without exception, he uses his thumb to either strike individual notes or brush several strings on every beat, and similarly almost without exception, he uses his index finger to hit the + of each beat on the open first or second string.  Evans is so consistent in hitting the +s with his index finger that he continues to do so while in the midst of slides or hammers in the bass, as in the + of beat 4 in the first two measures of the solo, and several other places.  In the entire opening solo, Evans never once does a pinch, picking with the thumb and index simultaneously.  It's a tribute to his invention that despite such a strictly adhered to right hand picking formula his piece nonetheless has a lot of variety and dynamics rather than being the sort of monotonous sing-songy sort of thing that just reading a description of the technique might lead one to believe would be the result.  This is both great guitar playing and a great conception.  Hats off to Frank Evans!
   * The V7 chord is just as you all had it, a normal B7 fingering apart from the first string, which he frets one fret high to get the #V of the V7 chord, as Pan had it (and the bIII of the I chord).  He fingered it X-2-1-2-0-3.

Thanks to all who participated and thanks for posting such thoughtful responses.  I felt like everybody was right in the neighborhood.  I hope folks will try out the solution for that IV chord phrase--it lays out so beautifully, it just plays itself, and it is so close to where he was fretting the two measures immediately preceding it, right up in the same area of the neck.

I'll try to find another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on October 13, 2014, 08:13:59 AM
Hi all,
Thanks to all who responded to the Frank Evans "French Blues" puzzlers, and it seems a good time to post the answers.  This piece was a new one to me, and finding the songs in this thread has made it apparent to me that I need to acquaint myself with the field recordings of this music that were made in the 30s through the 80s in a more thorough way.  There really is so much great stuff.

There really is, and it is a shame that so much of it is not in print. That's changing a little with some of the new vinyl reissues, and I haven't checked the streaming services like Spotify and Rdio to see if they have this stuff. I guess Spotify must have some of it, since Document released some John Lomax recordings (and Alan's?). And then there's YouTube.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 14, 2014, 12:47:01 PM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for any who might be interested.  It's been a little while since we've done one where there are several tunes with the only question being, "What playing position/tuning did the musician in question use to play this piece".  Let's do one like that. 

The first song is John Bray's "Trench Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/piyVnYo1VeQ

A couple of years ago, dj transcribed the lyrics to this performance, and they can be found at the "John Bray Lyrics" thread, located at http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=8359.0 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=8359.0) .

What playing position/tuning did John Bray use to play "Trench Blues?"

The second song is Bull City Red's "Pick and Shovel Blues".  Here it is:

Bull City Red - Pick And Shovel Blues (Georg Washington) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2FkGAqdzgU#ws)

I'm on my way to the jailhouse, baby, and I sure don't care
I'm on my way to the jailhouse, baby, and I sure don't care
And I may get lifetime and I may get the 'lectric chair

'Cause I've got to go to jail innocent, and I've got to serve my time
I've got to go to jail innocent, and I've got to serve my time
'Cause that old judge is so cruel, Lord, he won't give me no fine

Lord, I laid in jail, pretty mama, six long months and days
Lord, I laid in jail, baby, six long months and days
And I didn't have nobody to come down and go my bail

SOLO

Lord, they tell me this old jailhouse is a, that's a low-down lonesome place
Lord, this old jailhouse is a low-down lonesome place
Every morning when you rise, pick and shovel right before your face

I said, "Captain, Captain, please don't be so mean.
Captain, Captain, Captain, please don't be so mean.
You know, a pick and a shovel sure don't run by steam."

OUTRO

What position/tuning did Bull City Red use to play "Pick and Shovel Blues?"

The third song is Roosevelt Antrim's "Station Boy Blues".  Here it is:

Roosevelt Antrim - Station Boy Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK74i3rMld0#ws)

Said, I went to the station and I looked up on the board
Said, I went to the station and I looked up on the board
I couldn't see no freight train, mama, and I couldn't hear no whistle blow

Well I'm leavin' this mornin', if I have to ride the blinds
Well I'm leavin' this mornin', if I have to ride the blinds
Says, I feel mistreated and I surely don't mind dyin'

Come home last night, mama, don't mark dinner down to me
Come home last night, don't mark dinner down to me
Then out there and you go and stay out all night for me

SOLO

Says, I woke up this morning, babe, I couldn't hardly keep from cryin'
Says, I woke up this morning, I couldn't hardly keep from cryin'
I had the blues so bad, mama, I could feel them in my natch'l hands

SOLO

Said today you want your man to die like Jesse James
Baby, do you want your man to die like Jesse James?
When I leave this town, mama, say, I ain't comin' back no more

What position/tuning did Roosevelt Antrim use to play "Station Boy Blues"?

Please use only your ears, experience and guitar to answer the questions, and please don't post any answers prior to Thursday morning, October 16, so that plenty of folks will get a chance to listen and work out their answers.  Thanks for participating.

Edited 10/18 to pick up correction from ScottN

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 16, 2014, 07:29:56 AM
Starting in reverse order:
Roosevelt Antrim's "Station Boy Blues" is in C, standard tuning.
Bull City Red's "Pick and Shovel Blues" is in A, standard tuning but it sounds a half step high to me, making it played out of Bb
John Bray's "Trench Blues" I found quite tricky.  He has such a commanding voice that I found it difficult to focus on much of the guitar part.  I'm going with a D position but played up at the 9th fret (making it an A chord).  I'm also thinking he may have a capo as high as the 7th fret and if he does and he is playing in A, then I'm guessing he's lowered the top string down from E to D.  So, Dropped D tuning (capo at 7th) playing out of a D position.  My only rationale for this is the couple of notes he plays around the 8 sec mark, an A and C# (sounds like to me) and that I could pick out the melody of his vocals out of this position.

Look forward to hearing what other folks are getting for the John Bray.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on October 16, 2014, 10:51:41 AM
Hi all

Here are my guesses for the playing positions.

Quote
What playing position/tuning did John Bray use to play "Trench Blues?"

Sounds to me, like maybe E-position, standard tuning, capoed up to sound somewhere between G# and A. I seem to hear the open E chord form for the I chord. It then has the open 1st string changed to the 2nd and then the 4th frets, to the Major 3rd of the chord. This would be somewhat hard to do on the open position, but maybe not so hard capoed higher up on the neck, where the distance between the frets is smaller.

Quote
What position/tuning did Bull City Red use to play "Pick and Shovel Blues?"

I?m going to suggest A position standard tuning, tuned  or capoed up about a half-step. The various forms of A chord shapes seem to be there for the I chord, and the walkdown in the end of the verses sounds like an A position thing to me.

Quote
What position/tuning did Roosevelt Antrim use to play "Station Boy Blues"?

I?ll say C position in standard tuning. The chords sound like it, the little bend from the minor to major 3rd from the 2nd fret 4th fret also. I think the high G note on the 3rd fret of the 1st string, added on the F chord is characteristic also.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 16, 2014, 11:19:53 AM
Trench  Blues sounds like E capoed at the fifth fret. For Pick and Shovel I'm going to say G capoed at the third fret. And for Station Boy Blues, C standard.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 17, 2014, 07:13:50 AM
Hi all,
Thanks to Old Man Ned, Pan and Prof Scratchy for the responses on the three tunes.  The identifications for the songs are as follows:
   * For John Bray's "Trench Blues", the playing position is E position in standard tuning, capoed up a ways.  The fact that the guitar was capoed up so high made John Bray's way of playing his E chord, with his little finger fretting the fourth fret of the first string a plausible reach.  D position, as Old Man Ned had it, likewise puts the third of the playing position on the first string, but it has a much closer interval to the next lower string, from the third down to the root, than what John Bray is playing--Bray skips the next lower root and goes down to the fifth below, which in this instance, is the open second string.  I think Bray's unusual fingering for his home E chord and the fact that he avoids the V chord make this a tougher identification than it might otherwise be.  I sure like his singing.
   * "Bull City Red's "Pick and Shovel Blues" is in G position in standard tuning, as Prof. Scratchy had it.  Differentiating between A position and G position in East Coast blues like this one can be tricky, because the G position and the long A chord voice out exactly the same on the top four strings, so that a final identification often rests on details you hear along the way or the difference in how the IV and V chords sound in the different positions.  Since Bull City Red pretty much avoids the IV chord, you miss out on one of the best ways to decide between the two positions. 
There are some details that point to G position right from the start.  He plays a descending run near the beginning and at about :03 or :04 brushes a flat 3rd and a major 3rd on the second and third strings.  In G position, those intervals would be at the third fret of the third string and the open second string--in A position, they'd live at the fifth fret of the third string and the second fret of the second string, not impossible to play, but awkward.  Around :23-:25, Red brushes a slide up into the 3rd of the I chord on the third string and the 5th of the I chord on the second string while also brushing a VI note on the first string.  In G position, those three notes would live at 4-3-0 on the first three strings, from third to first string.  In A position, they would live at 5-6-2 on the same strings, an implausible position, especially with the two lower strings sliding into position while the first string remains constant, as it does here.
   * Roosevelt Antrim's "Station Boy Blues" was played in C position, standard tuning, as all three of you identified it. 

Thanks to you all for participating and congratulations to Prof Scratchy for making all three identifications correctly.  I'll post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 17, 2014, 01:12:27 PM
Hi all,
I've been trying to transcribe the lyrics of the songs in this thread as we go along.  I've gotten just about all of Roosevelt Antrim's "Station Boy Blues", back just a few posts at http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89414#msg89414 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89414#msg89414) , and I'd very much appreciate help with the bent bracketed passages in the third verse.  Thanks for any help with those.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on October 17, 2014, 10:08:32 PM
Hi John,

A complete WAG re: the lyrics "don't mark dinner down to me / for me."  No guess on the second part.

Thanks,
            Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 18, 2014, 09:27:50 AM
Thanks for the help, Scott.  I think "don't mark dinner down to me" matches what Roosevelt Antrim sings, right on the money.  I've made the change.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 18, 2014, 01:36:03 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  It's unusual in that it is an instrumental, "Baton Rouge Rag", as played by Joe Harris.  I know nothing about Harris except that this was apparently recorded by John Lomax in Louisiana.  Harris has four other titles up on youtube, I believe, and none of them are anything like this one.  It is such a beautiful conception, and beautiful playing, too.  I'm sort of surprised it isn't famous, at least in the world of Country Blues.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/av9vEqY0K9c

The questions on "Baton Rouge Rag" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Joe Harris use to play the song?  (You may have to listen a little ways into the tune to determine this.)
   * Where are the three chord positions that he opens his performance with, from :00--:03, :03--:06, and :06--:09 fretted, and how would you name each one of those chords?

Please use only your ears, instrument and experience in arriving at your answers, and please don't post any answers until Tuesday morning, October 21.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 19, 2014, 12:19:23 PM
Hi all,
I have been trying to figure out the lyrics to John Bray's "Trench Blues", a few posts back at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89414#msg89414 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89414#msg89414) , and I would very much appreciate help with the bent bracketed places in the lyrics.  It's a strong set of lyrics and there are not all that many songs that deal with African-American soldiers' wartime experiences.  Thanks for any help.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on October 19, 2014, 05:00:43 PM
Hi all,
I have been trying to figure out the lyrics t John Bray's "Trench Blues", a few posts back at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89414#msg89414 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89414#msg89414) , and I would very much appreciate help with the bent bracketed places in the lyrics.  It's a strong set of lyrics and there are not all that many songs that deal with African-American soldiers' wartime experiences.  Thanks for any help.

A few suggestions, John. This was transcribed in the Library of Congress Bicentennial set, and they have gaps in a lot of the same places. Very hard to decipher. Here's a couple of things from them and me:

7.1 Last old word I heard old Kaiser say

9.1 The Berlin women holler ?Non comprends?
holler in next two lines also

11.1 ???, big bell sadly tone
(sounds almost like "Weep long")

12.1 ? this is what the LoC had: Called him in the morning, chased him in the night
12.2,3 - LoC has Americans right
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Batson on October 20, 2014, 01:14:41 AM
4.1 : Montsec Hill
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dj on October 20, 2014, 05:41:01 AM
Quote
I have been trying to figure out the lyrics t John Bray's "Trench Blues"

I transcribed the lyrics a few years back in the "John Bray lyrics" thread:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=8359.0 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=8359.0).  I think they're mostly right.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 20, 2014, 06:50:12 AM
Thanks very much for the help, Chris, Batson and dj.  It had completely slipped my mind that you had previously transcribed these lyrics, dj.  I think I will post a link to your transcription in the post where I have John Bray's performance of the song.  You certainly caught a lot that I had missed.  Thanks so much.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on October 20, 2014, 09:16:55 AM
I transcribed the lyrics a few years back in the "John Bray lyrics" thread:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=8359.0 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=8359.0).  I think they're mostly right.

Excellent!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 21, 2014, 09:22:00 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the puzzler on Joe Harris' recording of "Baton Rouge Rag"?  If you've not had a chance to listen to it yet, you can find it at http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89459#msg89459 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89459#msg89459) , on the previous page of this thread.  Come one, come all, give it a shot!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on October 21, 2014, 10:49:10 AM
Hi all

I think Roi has it pretty well.

Anyway, here's my take on it.

Quote
* What playing position/tuning did Joe Harris use to play the song? 

I?m going to suggest Standard tuning, C position, tuned around a half-step low. At around :49 he plays a cycle of 5ths progression starting from the long A chord form, and playing the cycle, ending in an open C chord for the I chord, if I?m not mistaken. On 1:19 he does a chromatic walk-up from the open 6th string, to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd fret, to play the V or G chord. The ending at 1:48 sounds like a lick in C position too, starting from the 3rd fret of the 6th string, and going up to the open 5th string, then 2nd fret 5th string, to finish on the I or C note on the 3rd fret, 5th string.

Quote
* Where are the three chord positions that he opens his performance with, from :00--:03, :03--:06, and :06--:09 fretted, and how would you name each one of those chords?

The first chord I would call a A9 chord, and it could be fingered X-X-7-6-8-7 (or alternatively X-12-11-12-12-X).

The second one is a little trickier. It sounds like a Dm chord with an added 6th I guess you could call it Dm6. I think it is first fingered as a Dm X-X-X-7-6-5, and then the 6th is added on the top string on the 7th fret. To get the alternating bass, I guess you?d have to lose the 3rd string X-X-7-X-6-7. This chord too, could be played higher up on the neck, on the inner strings at the 10th fret, but since I believe the next chord uses open strings on the bass, and keeps the two top strings unchanged, I would say that it is more likely played at the 5th fret.

The last chord I think is a G7 chord with an A  note inserted on the 1st string 5th fret. I guess you could call it a G9 chord, and it would be fingered something like X-X-0-0-6-5, and then the top string is changed from A to B note, from 5th to 7th fret.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on October 21, 2014, 10:56:06 AM
I agree, C rag, but the D chord I'd have as 7-7-5, going from 5 to 7 on the E string...I'm not hearing it as a minor chord, but that's probably my ear.  I'll keep listening and see if I can hear it the same as everyone else...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 21, 2014, 11:13:59 AM
I'm sure the C rag thing works, and I'll have a go later on based on these previous posts. But it also works easily (if not correctly) in G (capoed at 4 to play along). In this position the first three chords are 022132 (E7 with an added D); x02212 (Am with an added Fsharp); and a regular D7 first position chord. I've played a watered down version of this tune for some years based on G. I think I got it from a Steve Phillips recording many years ago. I don't know if Steve played it in G, or whether I just lazily worked it out in that key. Probably the latter.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 21, 2014, 12:21:11 PM
Pretty much in agreement with what other folks have said.  C, standard tuning about a half step down in pitch.  Chords follow what I've read is a typical ragtime progression of VIx, IIx, V, I.  The first chord I have as an A XX7687, but later in the recording I think he also plays this as a long A at the 2nd fret.  The second chord I have is XX7577 and lifting off to the 5th fret on the high E string.  The 3rd chord I have as X55767 again lifting off to the 5th fret on the high E string.

At first I also thought he may be using a capo around 4th fret (or near vicinity) but hearing some of the chords further in the recording I convinced myself he wasn't.  Love the tune, that's another CD for my to buy list. Cheers.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on October 21, 2014, 02:25:38 PM
Without reading the other replies first, to keep myself honest, this is what I hear.

Baton Rouge Rag
- What playing position/tuning?
Key of C, standard tuning, tuned approx. 1/2 step low.

- Where are the three chord positions that he opens his performance with fretted? And how would you name the chords?
A9 chord at the 7th fret, fretting fourth string 7th fret, third string 6th, second string 8th fret, and first string 7th fret. Just barely brushes the first string during the lick.
D6 chord at the 7th fret playing the first, second, third and fourth strings: thumb alternating fourth string 7th fret with third string 7th fret, fingers playing second string 7th fret, and first string 5th fret and then 7th fret by laying down the little finger that should be holding the second string.
G chord at the 5th fret alternating open fourth and third strings while playing the second string 5th fret, then first string 7th fret, then first string 5th fret, then 7th fret again.

I think it is standard tuning because Harris plays a run from a low E chromatically up to G at about 1:19 in the tune.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 21, 2014, 11:01:32 PM
Hi all,
It is great to see all of the responses on "Baton Rouge Rag", and how close the consensus is on left hand positions (with minor variations) and playing position.  Here are the answers to the questions:
   * Playing position was C position in standard tuning, tuned a half-step low.  While the progression can be played out of G position capoed to the fourth fret, the very notes that Joe Harris played can't be gotten there, because Joe Harris frequently plays the open sixth string in the bass behind the VI chord  (A) that opens the progression.  Relative to that A chord, the open sixth string is a low 5th.  The analogous note is not available in G position because the VI chord in G is E and there is no low 5th available on an E chord, since the low root of the E chord is as low as you can go.
   * Joe Harris starts the tune with are an A9, which he fingers 0-x-7-6-8-7.  A peculiarity of Joe Harris's arrangement is that in the course of his rendition he never hits the open fifth string in the bass under this chord, and it would be the most obvious note to hit there, the lowest root.  When he does alternate the bass under this chord, he goes from the open sixth string up to the seventh fret of the fourth string, from a low 5th to a medium range root.  It's an unusual alternation, but it sounds great.
The second chord Joe Harris plays is a Dm or Dm6, under which he plays X-X-0-7-6-5, with the fifth fret of the first string rocking up to the seventh fret and back.  I suppose what you would call the chord would depend on whether you think the prevailing sound is of the 7th fret on the first string (Dm6) or the fifth fret on the first string (Dm).  Joe Harris never hits a note lower in pitch than the open fourth string against this chord.
The third chord that Joe Harris plays is a G9/G7, under which he plays  X-X-0-0-6-7, with the seventh fret of the first string rocking down to the fifth fret and back.  If you considered the dominant sound to be the seventh fret of the first string, you'd have G7, and if you considered the dominant sound to be the fifth fret of the first string, you'd have G9.  They're functionally interchangeable, in any event.

These opening three chords are beautifully voiced, and especially in the shift from Dm to G9 there is a beautiful concision, since the two chord positions differ from each other only on the third string, where you fret the seventh fret for the Dm and have an open third string for the G9.  In subsequent passes through the form, when doing the high version of the progression that he opens his rendition with, Joe Harris starts the form with a particularly nifty-sounding A7, under which he plays 0-X-7-6-8-0.  That chord is missed on the first pass through the form because the take starts half-way through the first bar.  The A7 has such a neat sound because he utilizes the always interesting sound of fretting a higher pitched note on a lower pitched string, and harmonizes the 8th fret of the second string with the open first string.

Congratulations to Roi and Pan, who both nailed the identification altogether.  I think everyone had the 9th chord formation for the first chord right, too, and Scratchy had it right relative to G position.  And I think a couple of you had fretted bass notes for the Dm and G7 where the same notes were available on open strings.  In other words, the sound was right.  I thought this one was kind of a tough puzzler and everyone was pretty much right there with it.

Hearing this piece made me think of the way we sometimes generalize about the characteristic sound of Country Blues from different regions, with Mississippi blues being with heavy time, in Spanish or E standard, little chordal complexity, etc.  Certainly there were plenty of blues like that that came out of Mississippi, but what about Hacksaw Harney, Eugene Powell, Bo Carter and somebody like Joe Harris from across the river?  These players all had pretty (or very) sophisticated chordal content in their music, a varied rhythmic palette, and a degree of Pop or Jazz influence.  I suspect that at a time when this music was in a more evolutionarily hot period, in almost any region you would have found some people playing music with heavy time, a pared back chordal vocabulary and a trancey feel, and others who played chordally complex, raggy or Pop-influenced material.  I'm beginning to think that gravitating toward one or the other of these extremes is almost more an issue of someone's personality, or what jerks their chain, than it is an issue of the region that someone came from.  In any area, there will just be some people who respond to harmonic complexity and are drawn to it and others who are not.  Thus, you end up with really surprising renditions like Joe Harris's "Baton Rouge Rag" coming out of Louisiana.  Who'd-a thunk it?

Thanks to all of you for your participation and I'll post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm         
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 22, 2014, 01:20:41 AM
Now to learn it properly!

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on October 22, 2014, 07:55:42 AM
What Scratchy said.  This is a great tune.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 22, 2014, 01:35:28 PM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The song is "Mama, You Goin' To Quit Me", as performed by Allison Mathis, recorded in Georgia in 1941.  I realize we haven't done many slide songs in this thread--I suppose I thought that it is relatively easy to tell what tuning someone is playing slide out of, but on a case by case basis, I'm not sure that is so.  In any event, I think this is one of the most exciting East Coast slide performances I've every heard--wow!  The only thing wrong with it is it's too short!  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/42aNshaKYN0

Allison Mathis used a stammering archetype in his vocal phrasing, much as William Harris had for his "Bullfrog Blues".  Dashes indicate places where Mathis concludes a vocal phrase with his slide.

You gon' quit me, good as I've been to --
You gon' quit me, good as I've been--

Lord, I ain't got no ticket, got no railroad, Lord, I ain't got no railroad fare
Lord, got no ticket, ain't got no railroad---
Got no ticket don't got no railroad---
Got no ticket, got no---

Eeee, Lord, my troubles been bad, just b'lieve my troubles easin' down
Easy, Lord, troubles bearing---

The first time I seen the catfish in the, said, a catfish in the sea
I guess these old fusstin' women are quarrelin' drunk over me

The questions on "Mama, You Goin' To Quit Me" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Allison Mathis use in playing the song?
   * Where does he fret the passage from :33--:36?

As always, please use only your ears, instruments and experience to answer the questions, and please don't post any of your answers before Friday morning, October 24.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy "Mama, You Goin' To Quit Me" as much as I do.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 24, 2014, 11:14:06 AM
Hi all,
Any takers on the puzzler on "Mama, You Goin' To Quit Me" as played by Allison Mathis?  Come one come all!  Answer both questions or only one if you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 25, 2014, 03:39:46 AM
Found this one really hard, not to say totally impenetrable, but close! So my best guess is Spanish capoed round about four or five. Using the capo as a nut, I think he slides up to the fifth fret of the fifth string then  frets the second string on the second fret. Then he rocks between the open first string and the second fret of the second string nine times before going briefly to the bent third fret of the fifth string, followed by the open fifth string. Probably entirely wrong, but my best guess. What a powerful performance! I've never heard a slide tune like it before (though some of it reminded me of Leadbelly's approach). Thanks for finding it, John.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on October 25, 2014, 10:56:06 AM
I agree, open G. I'd bet money it's played lap-style. It reminds me a little bit of Eli Framer's "God Didn't Make Me No Monkey Man," especially how it keeps insistently returning to the first string fifth fret.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on October 25, 2014, 02:21:11 PM
I'll guess at Spanish as well primarily based on the drop to the 6th string at 0:33. Just before the bass drops at 0:33 with a break in the vocal it sounds like an open 5th G alternating with a open 4th string D to me vs an A to D alternation (ruling out Vestapol because you cant get to G on the 5th).  At 0:33 it sounds like he slides up to the 5th fret and open 6th D alternates against C on the 5th fret 5th string and the start of the treble is 5th fret 2nd string vs open 1st string. That's my guess and I'll stand behind it at least until the next post that shows that I'm way off.

Thanks,
              Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 25, 2014, 09:59:26 PM
Hi all,
Thanks to Roi, Prof. Scratchy, banjochris and ScottN for the responses on Allison Mathis' "Mama You Goin' To Quit Me".  Here are the answers to the questions about the song.
   *  The playing position/tuning that Allison Mathis used for the song was indeed Spanish tuning, capoed up a good ways.  Every respondent had this right, and that's pretty darned cool.  The question wasn't a slam dunk by any means.  Well done!
   *  In the passage from :33-:36, it sounds like Allison Mathis is momentarily going to the IV chord at first.  I hear the passage as being a 2-bar phrase.  Here is how I'm hearing it:
   In the right hand, Mathis' thumb is living on the fifth string for the entire phrase, doubling up and hitting 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + on the fifth string in both measures.  Mathis' picking in the treble is more irregular.  In the bar, Mathis slide into the fifth fret on the fifth and third strings on beats 1, 2 and 3, doing pinches on those two strings on those beats and keeping his thumb striking the fifth fret of the fifth string on the +s of those beats as well.  On beat four of the first measure, Mathis lifts his bar and pinches the open fifth and first strings, and on the + of beat four, he re-picks the open fifth string agains either the first fret of the second string or the fifth fret of the third string (the same pitch, the IV note of the scale, lives in both of those places).  If Mathis was playing lap-style as Chris surmised, he could very well have fretted either of those two places with his bar, just dabbing it down.  If he used a fretting finger to fret the note on the + of beat four, he probably fretted the first fret of the second string.
In the second measure, in the first two beats, Mathis plays precisely the same thing that he played on 4 + at the end of the first measure, a pinch of the open fifth and first strings on beats 1 and 2, and on the +s of those beats, a pinch of the open fifth string with either the first fret of the second string or the fifth fret of the third strings.  On beat 3, he once again does a pinch of the open fifth and first strings, but on the + of beat three he does a pinch of the fifth and third strings, with the slide sliding into the fourth fret of those two strings.  On beat four, he allows the fourth fret of the third string to sustain, but re-picks the fourth fret of the fifth string.  On the + of beat four, he pinches the fifth and fourth strings while doing a quick hammer with his bar from those strings open to the second fret.  On the downbeat of the next measure, he pinches the fifth and third strings open.

I believe this is one of the most exciting slide performances I've heard in the style, and I think one of the things that makes Mathis's approach so exciting is the way he double up with his thumb in the right hand, hitting eighth notes instead of quarter notes falling on the beat.  That doubling up creates a rhythmic push and intensity that is really powerful.  Allison Mathis accelerates like crazy over the course of the brief rendition, and this is an instance in which a tendency which is sometimes construed as a lack of control or some kind of shortcoming of musicianship is more than justified in expressive terms--it just makes the whole thing so much more immediate and exciting.  It's worth mentioning that he had a terrific tone with his slide, too.  Listening to his slide playing, and that of Sister O. M. Terrell, to whom I've also been listening a lot recently makes me realize, once again, that regional generalizations about musical sound tend not to hold up, the more people you hear.  I had an idea in my mind of East Coast slide players often being expert, as per Fred McMullen, Blind Willie McTell and Curley Weaver, but as having a very controlled sound.  Allison Mathis and Sister O. M. Terrell put the lie to that generalization, with their wild, free-sounding slide playing, as exciting and wild as just about any slide playing out of Mississippi or anywhere else.  I'm happy to have preconceptions like mine exploded--it makes the world a bigger place!

Allison Mathis' performance of "Mama You Goin' to Quit Me", incidentally, came from a wonderful CD called "Red River Blues, 1934-1943" on the Travelin' Man label, TM CD O8.  It is one of the very best re-issue anthologies I have ever heard, all field recorded stuff and spectacular.

Thanks to all who participated on this one.  Everyone had the tuning right, and if you have that right, figuring out as much of a tune as you would like to figure out is just a war of attrition--if you keep plugging away, you'll get it, and that's pretty cool.  I'll post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 27, 2014, 10:36:37 AM
Hi all,
I've got another puzzler for you.  It has two parts.  The first cut is "Nobody's Business If I Do", as performed by Joe Harris, who also recorded "Baton Rouge Rag", discussed earlier in this thread.  Joe is joined by a mandolinist on this track.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/EY2mKehdfEY

If I go down to the river, jump overboard and drown
'T'ain't nobody's business if I do, do, do, do
If I take a notion to give you all my money
'T'ain't nobody's business if I do

I'm going away, pin crepe on your door
Won't be dead, but I ain't comin' back no more
If I take a notion to jump overboard and drown
'T'ain't nobody's business if I do

If I take all my money, and give it to my honey
'T'ain't nobody's business if I do, do, do , do
If I take a notion to jump overboard and drown
'T'ain't nobody's business if I do

The questions on "Nobody's Business If I Do" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Joe Harris use to play the song?
   * What is the chord progression of his first verse, from :06--:26?

The second piece is "Poor Joe Breakdown", as performed by Robert Davis.  Here it is:

Robert Davis - Poor Joe Breakdown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7F4X2nvkek#ws)

The questions on "Poor Joe Breakdown" are:
   * What position/tuning did Robert Davis use to play the tune?
   * Where is Robert Davis fretting what he plays in the treble at :18--:19?

Please use only your ears, instrument and experience to work out your answers to the questions.  Please wait until the morning of Wednesday, October 29 to post your answers.  Thanks for your participation.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 27, 2014, 04:21:59 PM
Hi all,
I'm going back in the thread again and attempting to transcribe the lyrics to all of the songs in the thread.  I've been working on Johnny Shine's "Tennessee Woman Blues", located at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89019#msg89019 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89019#msg89019) , and I'd appreciate any help with the bent bracketed passages in the lyrics.  Thanks for any help.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 29, 2014, 06:32:10 AM
Another day, another valiant but doomed attempt!

Aint nobody?s business:E Standard; E/Ab/A/Adim/E/B7/E/Csharp7/Fsharp/B7

Poor Joe Breakdownn: Spanish; first and second strings at 8th fret bent sharply
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on October 29, 2014, 10:45:55 AM
Agree with Roig and Prof Scratchy, F and Spanish.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 29, 2014, 11:49:00 AM
Unfortunately missed the last puzzler and not had much time to spend on this one.  The Joe Harris track I'm hearing E, this is solely based on the big fat low note he hits at 2secs which is matching the low E on my guitar, so there you go!  Love the tune and never heard it played out of anything but C.  This is the 2nd Joe Harris tune I've heard and the 2nd tune of his I love :-)

The Robert Davis I initially had down as in A but on listening again after reading other folks post I'm inclined to agree on Spanish.......must go....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on October 29, 2014, 11:51:50 AM
Hmm.

I was initially thinking F-position in standard as well. I think you could play it from E position pretty much as well. The IV chord would be easier in E. But the III7 and the VIm are easier from F. The sound of the I chord doesn't quite ring as much as an open E chord would, so I'm betting on F as well.

I hear the chord changes just slightly differently than the Professor. I think I wouldn't have noticed the dim. chord on bar 4, so kudos for the Professor for that.

|| F | A7 | Dm | Bdim7 |

| F | C7 | F D7/F# | C7/G C7 ||

|| F | A7 | Dm | Bb7 |

| F | G7 C7 | F | F ||

I agree on Spanish on the Robert Davis tune. On :18 I just hear open strings with a minor 3rd fretted on the 3rd string (X)-0-0-3-x-x, followed by the open 2nd string, while the 3rd string is still ringing, which created a strong dissonance between the two notes a half-step away.

Thanks for posting the wonderful version of "Ain't Nobody's Business", John! It reminds me of Tommie Bradley's version of the tune, discussed in this thread.
http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=2526.15 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=2526.15)
In fact, I think I'll add Joe Harris' version to the thread in question.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 29, 2014, 09:37:38 PM
Hi all,
Thanks for all of your responses.  Here are the answers for Joe Harris' "Nobody's Business If I Do" and Robert Davis' "Poor Joe Breakdown".  For "Nobody's Business If I Do":
   * The playing position was F position in standard tuning, as Roi, banjochris and Pan had it.  Pan outlined the reasons really well in his post why F position works better than does E position for this type of progression.  The first two changes in the progression are from the I chord to a III7 chord followed by a VI minor chord.  In F position, those three chords are F, A7 and D minor, all very playable chords that you can use open strings in the bass for (with the exception of F).  The same three chords in E position would be E, G#7 and C# minor, positions, with the exception of E, that really tie the left hand down and don't leave the player much leeway.  One good way to tell F position is the "chunky", "thumpy" sort of sound you get from an altogether closed-position I chord; another good way to tell F is that it makes more interesting moving bass lines available than just about any other position in standard tuning at the base of the neck.
   * The progression is very much as Pan had it.  I differ from his version only in a couple of minor details, and what he heard works just as well as what I hear.  Here is the progression as I had it with the slashed chords showing the chord played above the slash and the note played in the bass below the slash.  Joe Harris backs this, except for a few syncopations, in a boom-chang, cut time style.

   |  F   F/C   |  A7/E   A7   |     Dm    |   Bdim7   |

   |  F   F/C   |  C7   C7/G   |  F   D7/F# |  Gm7  C7  |

   |  F   F/C   |   A     A/E    |  Dm   Dm/A  |  Bb    Bb/F  |

   |  F   F/C   |  G7    C7   |    F   F/C      |   F      F/C    |

I agree with Old Man Ned on the merits of Joe Harris's tunes.  Both "Baton Rouge Rag" and "Nobody's Business If I Do" sound just great to me.  He has a couple of more tunes posted up on youtube, so if you like his music, you should seek them out.

Here are the answers for Robert Davis's "Poor Joe Breakdown":
   * He did play the piece in Spanish tuning, as everyone had it.  Well done!
   * In the treble at :18--:19, Robert Davis is fretting the first string at the twelfth fret while bending the second string at the eleventh fret.  The sound of this figure is the same as that which lives at the seventh fret of the first string and the bent eighth fret of the second string when playing in E position in standard tuning, or at the fifth fret of the first string and the bent sixth fret of the second string when playing in D position in standard tuning or dropped D.  The figure voices the 5th of the I chord on the first string and the bent bIII of the I chord on the second string.  Because Spanish tuning is voiced 5-R-5-R-3-5, you have to go all the way to the twelfth fret of the first string to get a V note on the first string with a bIII available on the second string.  Since the major III lives at the twelfth fret of the second string in Spanish tuning, the bIII will live at the 11th fret of the second string, one fret lower.  I've not heard this figure used in Spanish tuning a lot.

I think Robert Davis had beautiful tone on this recording.  His sound reminds me a lot of Jesse Wadley's "Alabama Prison Blues" which is back a ways in this thread.  "Poor Joe Breakdown" is on the Traveling Man "Red River Blues" CD that I just reviewed, along with Allison Mathis's "Mama You Gon' Quit Me" and Reese Crenshaw's "Trouble", both tunes we've looked at previously in this thread.  That CD is terrific!

Thanks for participating and I will find another puzzler to post soon.

All best,
Johnm


Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 30, 2014, 04:14:46 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you, in two parts.  A musician we've not looked at here thus far, but who had an altogether distinctive approach and sound was Robert Pete Williams.  The first song of his I'd like to look at is "Free Again".  Here it is:

Robert Pete Williams- Free Again (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c22L4_UZJ9M#)

The questions on "Free Again" are as follows:
   * What playing position/tuning did Robert Pete Williams use in playing "Free Again"?
   * What chord, as designated by Roman numeral, that is commonly found in blues is never played in "Free Again"?
   * Describe a fingering that would enable you to get everything Robert Pete most often plays behind his singing over the I chord in "Free Again".

The second song of Robert Pete's is "Dyin' Soul".  Here it is:

Robert Pete Williams - Dyin' Soul (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA9XkFhTRlI#ws)

Oh Jesus, have mercy on my dyin' soul
Oh Lord, have mercy on my dyin' soul
Oh Lord Jesus, save me on my way

Oh Lord, oh Jesus
Oh Father, take my hand and lead me always
Whilst I'm tryin' to do the best that I can

Oh, I'm so glad I know who Jesus is
Oh, I'm so glad that I know who Jesus is

Oh Lord, people wanta know why that I pray so hard
Oh, I want you to know I got no time to lose

Lord, have mercy on my dyin' soul
I'm growin' to Jesus and what you are

Well, I mean, my eyes closed, closed, they got prayin'

I don't want no worry when I'm callin' on that Jesu of mine
I don't want no worry when I'm prayin' to my God

Oh Lord, take my hand, Jesus, and lead me on
Whilst I'm tryin' to do the very best that I can
Have mercy on my dyin' soul

I wish that I was in my Father's kingdom right now
I feel so holy and so good 

Here are the questions for "Dyin' Soul":
   * What playing position/tuning did Robert Pete Williams use to play "Dyin' Soul"?
   * Where did he finger the little slide in the bass that is a recurring motif throughout the song?

Please use only your ears, instrument and experience to answer the questions, and please don't post any of your answers before Saturday morning, November 1.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 01, 2014, 09:59:01 AM
Fingers crossed and hoping I'm not too off course, for "Free Again" I'm getting standard E and the missing chord is the IV.  The fingering over the I chord I'm going for:
0
3
1
0
2
0
a basic E7th but I'm not even sure if the 3rd string is held on this one and when I'm hearing a B note in there I'm not sure if it's open 2nd str or caught at the 4th fret 3str, (or both interchangeable) but either way it's easily playable out of this position.
   
For "Dyin' Soul" I'm hearing Open G tuning which would put the wee slide in the bass into the 4th fret on the 5th string followed by the open 4th and 5th strings.  I started out with this in standard G but most of the melody notes I'm hearing can come out of the 1st 2nd strings at the 5th fret and the open first string which seems to make the slide in the bass easier to play.
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on November 01, 2014, 03:20:02 PM
On "Free Again" I wouldn't say D standard exactly, his main chord seems to be a D minor chord. I would finger it with index on the first string first fret, pinky on the second string third fret, middle finger on the third string second fret. Leaving the ring finder free to bend the third fret of the fourth string and your pinky could pop over and get the G note on the first string first fret. He avoids the IV chord, although I know he has pieces (the names escape me at the moment) where he plays out of that Dm position where he plays a full G major chord.

Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 01, 2014, 05:25:59 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers on "Free Again" or "Dyin' Soul"?  Come one, come all!  I'll post sometime tomorrow.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on November 01, 2014, 06:37:48 PM
Well, I might very well be completely wrong here, but to me the guitar sounds too low to be played from the D minor position -you'd have to tune a minor third down to sound approximately at Bm, and to me the strings just don't sound that loose, so I'll stick my neck out and propose an A minor position in standard tuning instead, about a whole step up, probably with a capo. The V7 chord sounds like an open position E7 to me as well.

The 2nd tune sounds like Spanish to me as well, and if I understood Old Man Ned correctly, I'll agree that the slid note would be on the 5th string, from the 3rd fret to the 4th.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on November 01, 2014, 07:13:08 PM
Pan, I think you're right, I hadn't realized how far down I had tuned. Plus him sliding up to get the A at the first string fifth fret is a lot more likely in the break, and I don't hear any note lower than the bass of the V chord. I'd finger the A minor two-finger, middle on the second fret of the fourth and third string, index finger on second string of the first fret, leaving the ring finger free to hit the third fret of the fifth and second strings, and the pinky free too. It's interesting how much he plays out of minor positions.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 02, 2014, 03:20:52 AM
I'm going to say Am for the first one, capo at 2, missing IV chord.
For the second one I'll say G standard with bass riff sixth string at 3rd fret followed by open 5th string and hammer on frets 1 and 2.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 02, 2014, 01:19:04 PM
Hi all,
Thanks for all of the responses on Robert Pete Williams' "Free Again" and "Dyin' Soul".  It's great to see identifications reasoned out and shared.  And of course Robert Pete's way of expressing himself on the guitar and vocally was so much his own way of doing it and so much not the way that everybody else did it. 
Here are the answers for "Free Again":
   * He did play it out of D position in standard tuning, tuned roughly a minor third low.  If you orient your ears to what he is hitting underneath his I chord, and compare where the notes fall in D position in standard tuning versus A position in standard tuning, I think the discussion has a more informed context.  On the highest pitched string he's playing under his I chord he is hitting the bIII and the IV notes.  In D position, those notes live at the first and third frets of the first string, respectively, and in A position they live at the first and third frets of the second string.  On the second highest pitched string he plays, he is hitting a bVII note and a I note.  In D position, those notes live at the first fret and the third fret of the second string, respectively, and in A position they live on the open third string and the second fret of the third string.  On the third lowest string he plays he hits the IV note and the V note, usually going from IV to V via a hammer.  In D position, those two notes live at the open third string and the second fret of the third string, and in A position they live at the open fourth string and the second fret of the fourth string.  On the fourth lowest pitched string he plays, he plays a I note and a slightly bent bIII note.  IN D position, those notes live at the open fourth string and the third fret of the fourth string, and in A position the notes live at the open fifth string and the third fret of the fifth string.  Comparing the two positions in sum, the only difference in the left hand for the two positions, apart from the A position consistently sitting a string lower than the D position falls on the second highest pitch string, where in D position you have the first and third frets of the second string and A position you have the open third string and the second fret of the third string. 
The open third string in A position for the bVII note of the scale is problematic, because when you listen to Robert Pete's playing, he is consistently inflecting that note, reefing on it a little bit, giving it a bit of vibrato or just slightly wiggling it.  You can't do any of those things to a note played on an open string, and the handiest place to get that same pitch as a fretted note, at the fifth fret of the fourth string is not a plausible solution for the left hand given the way the rest of the notes sit.
The place in the rendition that argues most strongly for D position is at 1:24 in his first solo, where he has been free-handing on his highest pitched string and working his way down from a high I note to a bVII note and continuing downward.  When he gets to the IV note, at 1:24, he brushes the next lower string, on which he sounds a VI note, which is the third of the IV chord.  In D position, the IV note on the highest pitched string lives at the third fret of the first string and the VI note below lives on the open second string.  In A position, you're in a "you can't get there from here" situation, because the IV note lives at the third fret of the second string and the VI note is at the fourth fret of the fourth string, with the third string between the two notes.  I suppose Robert Pete could have brushed those two strings and muted the third string between them, but I don't think it is plausible that he did so.  Alternatively, he could have gotten the two notes on adjacent strings by getting the IV note at the seventh fret of the third string and the VI note at the fourth fret of the fourth string--again, not plausible.
There are other places in the rendition where you can hear him going from a VI note to the bVII note a semi-tone higher, at 1:27, 1:33, 1:52 and 1:59.  In D position, those two notes are open the open second string and first fret of the second string, a cinch.  In A position, they're at the fourth fret of the fourth string and the open third string or fifth fret of the fourth string, which would use the left hand in a weird way.
One other consideration is that the way Robert Pete bends and inflects the notes on his three highest-pitched strings, and the tones of those strings make it clear that they are all unwound strings, and pretty slack ones at that, particularly given the way he does bends of the bIII note at the first fret of his highest pitched string.  In A position, having unwound strings for the three highest pitched strings he plays under his I chord would require unwound second and third strings, which are a commonplace, but would also require an unwound fourth string, which is rare indeed.
   * As a number of you noted, Robert Pete never hits a IV chord with its root in the bass in the course of his rendition.  As Chris noted in his first post on the songs, there are other songs that Robert Pete played with a D minor tonality in which he not only goes to a IV chord, but hits a IV7 chord, which puts him in the Dorian Mode.  It would be so interesting to know how he came to gravitate towards such sounds, because they are not commonly encountered in either the religious or popular music he was likely to have heard growing up.
   * For his left hand coverage in D position over his I chord, I would propose the index finger owning the first fret, where it could get the bVII note on the second string and the bIII note on the first string.  The second finger would get the V note at the second fret of the third string, and the third finger would fret the bIII note at the third fret of the fourth string, the I note at the third fret of the second string and the IV note at the third fret of the first string.

Here are the answers for "Dyin' Soul":
   * He did play it out of Spanish tuning.  One place in the rendition that makes this identification clear is at :34-:35, where he plays a line that goes from a high I note to the V below it, up to the VI note and back to that high I note.  In that passage, he consistently brushes a III note below those melody notes.  In Spanish, the three melody notes would all live at the open first string, the second fret of the first string and the fifth fret of the first string, and the lower III note would be the open second string.  In G position standard tuning, the high root would be at the third fret of the first string, the VI note would be the open first string and the V note would be the third fret of the second string.  The lower III note would be the open second string as it was in Spanish.  The problem with G position is that when you play the V note at the third fret of the second string you lose the open second string that needs to sound beneath it.
   * The little slide is from the third fret of the fifth string to the fourth fret of the fifth string, as Old Man Ned originally proposed and several others of you agreed.

I hope the explanations don't seem too detailed, and I suppose I could be accused of "chewing more than I bit off", but Robert Pete Williams' sound was so singular, and the selection of A position that several of you made was so well reasoned that I thought more detail than usual was called for.  For reasons that are not known to me, Robert Pete's most funky tunes in terms of timing and inflection were just about all played out of D position in standard tuning, a position altogether bypassed by a host of Country Blues players including Lemon Jefrferson, Charlie Patton, Luke Jordan and Libba Cotten.  I guess it is just one more example of how different Robert Pete heard things and chose to express himself than his contemporaries or predecessors.

Thanks for your participation and I'll post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm

 
   
     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 02, 2014, 01:55:03 PM
Not too detailed for me John and very much appreciated.  That's what I love about this thread, I'd strayed way off path on 'Free Again' and it's so good to go back figure out where things went astray.  Every day's a school day :-) Thanks so much.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on November 02, 2014, 05:10:03 PM
Thanks again for the detailed analysis, John. Much appreciated, as always.
Congratulations for Roi for getting it right, and apologies, if I mislead others with my suggestion for A minor position!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 03, 2014, 01:56:09 AM
I was lucky enough to see RPW several times live. Even when I could actually see what he was doing, I didn't have a clue about how he was making those sounds. A magical and unique player!

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: wild irish rose on November 03, 2014, 05:38:45 PM
I agree completely Prof Scratchy on RPW's seemingly magical abilities on the guitar. While we're on the topic and before the next puzzle gets posted, I have a question about a particular RPW performance I found on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thOH7ebGkhQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thOH7ebGkhQ)

If you jump to around the 1:36 mark when the camera pans down to his hands, it looks like what he's playing doesn't even match the sounds of his guitar. However, before that when he's singing his lips match perfectly to the vocals so I don't think there's any edit trickery or desyncing going on but perhaps I'm mistaken.

Do his hands match the sounds for everyone else and I'm just crazy? Kind of a weird question I'll admit but it's always bugged me and I've never taken the time to learn the song to see how it matches up.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 03, 2014, 05:53:59 PM
You aren't crazy, wild Irish rose--the sound and the film do not match up, especially at the tail end of that very brief passage showing his left hand.  The bend and position up the neck are correct, though not in synch with the sound track.  It does not match.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: wild irish rose on November 03, 2014, 06:43:59 PM
Thanks for the confirmation of my sanity, John! Seems like it might just be a desync either from YouTube or the source the video's from then I would wager. Just threw me off because the audio matched the vocals up until the guitar interlude when it starts to go off.

I love this thread even though I'm a hopeless lurker. Still learn loads from other people's guesses and your analyses, so thanks for the thread!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on November 03, 2014, 11:29:48 PM
At the very end of that clip though is a good shot of him playing a G chord in a D-minor-based tune. My guess is that the film lost sync for a bit or it was screwed up in the editing. Don't think it's a YouTube problem.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 04, 2014, 07:09:18 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  The performance is "Guitar Blues", as played by Johnny St. Cyr, who was originally a New Orleans musician.  He played a lot with Jelly Roll Morton and evidently played at Disneyland late in his life.  He was a wonderful player and had a beautiful ear for harmony and way of getting around on his instrument.  Here is his performance:

Guitar Blues - Johnny St. Cyr (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qF_vzT_lLo#)

The questions on "Guitar Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Johnny St. Cyr use to play the tune?
   * What three chords does Johnny St. Cyr play in the passage from :11--:14?  Name them and indicate where they are fretted.
   * Where does Johnny St. Cyr modulate to at :45?
   * What three chords does Johnny St. Cyr play in the passage from :55--:59?  Name the chords and indicate where they are fretted.

Please use only your ears, instrument and experience to answer the questions, no transcription software.  I will not be able to post answers until Sunday evening, and this is a kind of detailed puzzle, so please wait until Friday, November 7, to post your responses.  I encourage you to use your guitar to figure out some of these voicings.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on November 05, 2014, 03:02:15 PM
While you're working on Johnny St. Cyr, If you've never seen this it's worth a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg7cVSEfqPw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg7cVSEfqPw)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 05, 2014, 04:26:44 PM
Thanks for the link, Chris.  That is great footage.  I get a kick out of Johnny St. Cyr's right hand when he's playing time--talk about conservation of energy!  Wonderful to see performance footage of Kid Ory too, and Louis of course.  That's a treat.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on November 05, 2014, 06:56:23 PM
Great stuff! Wonderful how well the band plays at such a slow tempo. That's one of the things that makes them pros.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on November 07, 2014, 09:27:26 AM
Q: What playing position/tuning did Johnny St. Cyr use to play the tune?
A: A Position Standard Tuning, identified specially through Blind Boy Fuller licks, the characteristsic IV chord (2-0-0-2-1-(0)).

Q: What three chords does Johnny St. Cyr play in the passage from :11--:14?  Name them and indicate where they are fretted.
A: A Major (x-0-x-2-2-x), C#7/G# (4-x-3-4-2-x) and F#9 (2-x-4-3-2-4)

Q: Where does Johnny St. Cyr modulate to at :45?
A: From A up a fourth to D

Q: What three chords does Johnny St. Cyr play in the passage from :55--:59?  Name the chords and indicate where they are fretted.
A: For the first chord I only really hear the lowest and the highest note (C and e). I would probably decide for a D9/C fingering like x-3-4-5-5-x or x-3-2-2-5-x if I had to play the tune.
For the second chord, I hear a C9 x-x-2-3-3-3 and for the third a B9#5 to B9 move (x-x-1-2-2-3, then x-x-1-2-2-2), but maybe he's just playing another C9 before the B9.

BTW, may I ask if I'm the only one who would identify the A section turnaround passing chord (between A and E7) as Bbdim (x-1-2-0-2-x)?
Also, in the bar before the turnaround, would the chords for beats 2, 3,and 4 be fingered as x-4-x-2-5-x, x-3-x-2-4-x and x-2-x-1-3-x ?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 07, 2014, 12:35:44 PM
Wonderful piece by Johnny St Cyr.  I love his version of Jelly Roll Blues (I think, every things packed up at the minute as I'm moving home) on the Lomax recordings of Jelly Roll Morton on the CD box set.  Anyhow's....A in standard, modulates to D.  The first of the 3 chords  from :11--:14 I get as A at 2nd fret, but haven't got the other 2 chords (I'm rubbish at getting chords unless it's something really basic), though having seen Dr Mando's post he sounds spot on.  That's as far as I got......



Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on November 07, 2014, 01:25:18 PM
Hi all

What a great tune again, thanks for posting it, John!

I agree with Mr. Mando and Old Man Ned on standard tuning, keys of A and D.

I think Mr. Mando nailed the first chord passage.

On the second passage in the key of D, I hear it slightly differently.  I could be wrong, though. After the IV chord I seem to hear quick D chord X-X-0-2-3-2, followed by the open 5th string, which gives you the time to quickly change position higher up on the neck.
Like Mr. Mando, I first could only hear the bass note C and the high E on the next chord. However, on a later chorus, on the same spot, I think I'm hearing a high F# (or Gb) above the E as well. This is why I'm thinking that the chord in question is a C7(b5) (bVIII(b5) or an F#7(b5) (III7(b5). These chords are tritone substitutions, and can be interpreted either way. I would finger them as 8-X-8-9-7-X, starting with the 2nd finger on the low 6th string.
I then hear a B7(#5) 7-X-7-8-8-X, followed by a B7 7-X-7-8-7-X, before resolving to E.

Mr. Mando, I think you nailed the turnaround chords on the A section.

Looking forward to hear what is the correct answer.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on November 07, 2014, 06:56:42 PM
I believe St. Cyr was playing this in A position, standard tuning. The lowest note I hear played is the open E sixth string.
The three chords from :11 - :14 are A, G7, F#9 fretted (and attempting to indicate some timing of notes):

E|-0    x   444
B|-2    0   2
G|-2    0   3
D|-2    3   2
A|-x0   2   4
E|-x  0 3   2

At :45 he modulates to the key of D.

The three chords from :55 - :59 are D, C7, B7#5 fretted (again with note timing:

|-2   x  x  x| 3
|-3   1  1  1| 0
|-2   3  3  3| 2
|-0   2  2  2| 1
|-x  3  3  3 | 2
|-x  x  x  x | x

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 08, 2014, 03:27:55 AM
Yes definitely A standard tuning with a modulation to D. I had the first selection of three chords as davek has them. I didn't manage to suss the chords from :55 to :59 if I'm honest. I remain, as ever,
Cloth Ears Jones
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on November 09, 2014, 10:21:39 AM
I've been listenening again and trying everybody's solution. Pan's mention of the high F# note in the second D chorus is spot on IMHO, and davek's identification of the B7#5 (x-2-1-2-0-3) also sounds closer than my initial solution. When listeneing to the second D chorus, I realized that there doesn't seem to be no Cwhatever chord chord at all.
So actually, the chords from :55 to :59 would be (after the D) F#m7b5 (x-3-2-2-5-2), then B7#5 (x-2-1-2-0-3), then B7 (x-2-1-2-0-2).
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 10, 2014, 11:02:09 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for your participation.  Johnny St. Cyr's "Guitar Blues" really is a stellar piece and performance, isn't it?  Sorry to be slow responding, but I was out of town.  Here are the answers to the questions that were posed.
   * He did play the piece out of A position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * The three chords Johnny St. Cyr played in the passage from :11--:14 are very much as mister mando had them in the first response:  A: X-0-2-2-2-X, resolving to C#7/G: 4-X-3-4-2-X, resolving to F#9: 2-X-2-3-2-4.  Johnny St. Cyr doesn't really hit the fourth string in the F#9 until he brushes the top four strings on the fourth beat of the measure, and you can hear the bVII note of the chord on the fourth string, second fret, at that point.  Had he fretted the fourth fret of the fourth string, he would have had an F#add9 rather than an F#9, and it wouldn't have wanted to function like a V7 chord, continuing to push into the B9 chord that follows it.
   * Johnny St. Cyr modulates to D at the :45 mark, just as you all had it.
   * In the passage from :55-:59, one of the very prettiest in the tune, I think, Johnny St. Cyr goes from a D chord voiced on the top four strings 0-2-3-2, and passes through what at this time sounds like a C chord, with an open voicing, X-3-X-X-5-X, resolving to a B7#5, voiced X-2-X-2-4-3.  One of the nifty things about this passage is that Johnny St. Cyr does a very pianistic device of walking down in harmonized tenths (an octave and a third) as pianists of his era often did, with the bass walking down from the D string to the C note on the A string resolving to the B note on the A string, while at the same time the treble walks down from the F# on the first string to the E note on the B string to the D# on the B string in the B7#5 chord. 
Although the middle of the three chords sound like a C chord voiced root-3rd the first time he plays through the passage, the second time he gets there, he plays a much more fleshed-out voicing, an F#m7b5 chord, as Pan analyzed it, and I think F#m7b5 gets closer to the function of the middle chord in the walk-down than does a C major chord in any event.  That second time he plays the walk-down, he voices the middle chord, the F#m7b5, X-3-x-2-5-2, so that on the strings that are fretted, it is voiced b5-b3-b7-Root.  Voicing the F#m7b5 that way makes for a significantly niftier walk-down, with tighter and closer voice leading.  The outer voices still walk down in tenths, but that second fret of the third string holds its place through all three chords, binding them together beautifully, as the 5 of the D chord, the b3 of the F#m7b5 and the b7 of B7#5. 
Since mister mando mentioned it, looking at Johnny St. Cyr's turn-around in the next-to-last bar of his first time through the form, he goes from an open A string on the downbeat of that bar to another walk-down in tenths between his outer voices: F#7/C#: X-4-X-3-5-X, to Cdim7: X-3-X-2-4-X, to
E7/B: X-2-X-1-3-X, into the next bar to A: X-0-X-2-2-X to Bbdim7: X-1-X-0-2-X, to E7/B: X-2-X-1-3-X.  One of the really beautiful and elegant things about this turn-around is that the F#7/C#, the Cdim7 and the E7/B are all fingered exactly the same way, and the move can be achieved simply by moving the position downward from the F#7/C# where it starts, a fret at a time.  This seem to me to be a really happy meeting place of concept, sound and the way the hand is configured--wow!
One other thing that I think is worth mentioning about Johnny St. Cyr's approach in arranging "Guitar Blues" is his fondness for voicing chords in second inversion, i.e., with the 5th of the chord in the bass.  The arrangement abounds with places where he does this, and he usually does it to get linear motion in the bass, rather than having the blocky bass resolutions of 4ths and 5ths you would normally expect to have in a song that relies heavily on circle-of-fifths progressions.  Here are just a couple of the second inversion voicings he uses in verse three, the first time he plays through the form in D:
   * In the ninth bar, he voices an E9/B: X-2-X-1-3-2, resolving to E7/B: X-2-X-1-3-0
   * Going into the tenth bar he voices an A9/E: X-7-X-6-8-7, resolving to A7/E: X-7-X-6-8-5
   * Halfway through the tenth bar, he voices an E9/B: 7-X-6-7-7-X
This is a piece that has enough interesting ideas and sounds to justify doing a transcription of it from beginning to end (much like Joe Harris' "Baton Rouge Rag" or Reese Crenshaw's "Trouble"), and I encourage any of you who are so inclined to take it on.  I think we can get in the habit of thinking that Blind Blake, for instance, sort of had the last word in terms of speaking in a raggy language on the guitar, but Johnny St. Cyr goes a lot of places in this tune that Blake never dreamed about.

Thanks for your participation.  I think everybody was really in the ballpark in terms of hearing and to the extent there were differences, they tended to be quite subtle.  I will post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on November 10, 2014, 02:50:11 PM
johnm, thanks for the insight into the details. I think it's great that with everybody's input, we were really close as a collective.
For the B7#5, I think there's a typo in your post. Wouldn't it be voiced X-2-X-2-4-3?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 10, 2014, 03:09:41 PM
Yes, you're right about the typo, mister mando.  Thanks for the catch!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 10, 2014, 05:43:54 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you, and it involves two Texas musicians.  The first is Pete Harris, doing "Square Dance Calls and Little Liza Jane".  Here is the recording:

Pete Harris- Square Dance Calls - Little Liza Jane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb1cHb-aqTg#ws)

One question only for this song:
   * What playing position/tuning did Pete Harris use to play the piece?

The second song is by Wallace Chains, whom we've encountered twice before in this thread.  The song is his version of "Ella Speed", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/deF-07wF3hU

Come al you girls, take heed, remember Ella Speed
You remember the poor girl, Ella speed
Some day you might be out, only having fun
Some man will kill, the deed that Martin done

Remember the day that poor Ella died
The women, everybody cried
Hung their heads, and these the words they said,
"Poor Ella's gone, and the poor girl's dead."

I was in Savannah upon a Christmas Eve night
Poor Ella, she was drinkin', she's out of sight
And the trains all come running, under the Union shed
Started the bells to tone when they heard poor Ella was dead

Poor Ella's people, they lived 'way out West
They didn't come south 'til they heard poor Ella's death
Some give nickels and some give dimes
I would give a quarter but she wasn't no friend of mine

SPOKEN:  That's all

The questions for "Ella Speed" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Wallace Chains use to play the song?
   * What chord progression did he use to accompany the song?

Please use only your ears and instrument to figure out the answers to the questions, and please don't post any answers before Wednesday morning, November 12.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

Edited 11/16 to pick up correction from Prof. Scratchy

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 12, 2014, 12:08:24 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Pete Harris and Wallace Chains puzzlers?  Come one, come all, and answer as few or as many questions as you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on November 12, 2014, 03:42:23 PM
I believe Roi is right about Spanish on the Pete Harris tune.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on November 12, 2014, 10:55:20 PM
I agree with Pan and roig, just wanted to add that Liza Jane and Ella Speed both sound at Bb, so the first one is copoed up 3 frets and the second one tuned down a whole step.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harvey on November 13, 2014, 01:27:59 AM
Not had time to look at this thread for a few months, but have this week and really enjoyed going through some of the earlier posts, thank you John 

Spanish for the first version.

I think the second version is C as the others have said,  but I cant tell the progression it has some strange sounding chords in there to me.. however if in C I have the standard  A D7 G/G7 C

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frailer24 on November 13, 2014, 02:18:33 AM
I am going to go with Roig on this one. I believe, however that the last 2 lines of Ella Speed are played thusly: A, A7, Dm, F#aug, G, C.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 13, 2014, 10:10:15 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for your responses.  As for the answers to the questions that were posed, Roi had everything right in his post--well done, Roi! 
   * The Pete Harris cut was played in Spanish.  His approach in the right hand reminds me a bit of Henry Thomas, though I don't think Henry Thomas ever recorded thumb lead to the extent that Pete Harris employs it here.  Thumb lead works so well in Spanish and other open tunings (especially open Bb), and the way that Pete Harris did it sounds like it might have come right out of banjo playing.
   * Wallace Chains' version of "Ella Speed" is a particularly nice one, and everything I've heard by him has been really fine.  It's nice to hear that D minor chord in there instead of the D7 one most often encounters in a raggy circle-of-fifths progression like this.  Probably the most striking place in the song's 16-bar progression is the passage in the 11th and 12th bars where Chains goes from D minor to the Ab7 chord.  What makes those chords work as well as they do, and resolve so smoothly into the C chord that follows them is his bass line.  He plays the D minor with the open D string in the bass, X-X-0-2-3-1, resolves to Ab7/Eb, X-X-1-1-1-2, and then resolves upward 1/2 step into C/E, X-X-2-0-1-0. 

The walk-up Wallace Chains does there is like a much more commonly encountered one in raggy tunes, but done in it's relative minor.  The more common walk-up is IV to #IVdim7 to I/V; Chains' walk-up goes from II to #II to I/III in its bass line.  Expressing both walk-ups in the key in which he played "Ella Speed", the more common walk-up would be F-F#dim7-C/G, and Chains' walk-up was Dm-Ab7-C/E.  It should be noted that in the more common walk-up, an Ab7 could similarly be used in substitution for the F#dim7 chord--indeed it was the way Blind Blake most often did the move, voicing the Ab7 chord with its b7 in the bass, Ab/Gb, 2-X-1-1-1-X.  It's neat to see how the raggy progression can comfortably accommodate such a variety of substitutions and still retain its most essential elements and sound.

Thanks to all who participated, and I'll post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 13, 2014, 01:24:14 PM
Hi all,
I've got another two-song puzzler for those who are interested.  The first song is "Country Girl Blues", performed by George Boldwin.  I know nothing about Boldwin, but his sound is unusual.  The song has no verses, per se, just single lines with intervening instrumental fills.

https://youtu.be/yYuJApddU3c

Tell me, baby, where'd you, where did you stay last night?

Stay out in the country, just a few miles out from town

I-uh sent for you last night, here you come, this mornin' soon

Say, tell me, where did you get your sugar from?

I got my, been travelin' Highway 61 

The questions on "Country Girl Blues" are as follows:
   * What playing position/tuning did George Boldwin use to play the song?
   * What is unusual about the scale George Boldwin uses to sing the melody of the song?

The second performance is Bill Tatnall's performance of "Fandango".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/WG4b3CdRQ-g

The questions on "Fandango" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Bill Tatnall use to play the tune?
   * What chord does he play at :30--:31, and where is it fretted?
   * What other name for a Country Blues guitar instrumental might more aptly have been used for "Fandango"?

Please use only your ears and instruments in arriving at your answers to the questions, and please wait until Saturday morning, November 15 to post your answers.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on November 13, 2014, 01:48:09 PM
Thanks again for the analysis, John.

FWIW, Ella Speed was discussed in this thread a few years ago. I managed to get the chords wrong then already, so I passed on it this time. :)

http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=3584.msg84332#msg84332 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=3584.msg84332#msg84332)

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on November 15, 2014, 08:00:29 AM
"Country Girl Blues"
Q: What playing position/tuning did George Boldwin use to play the song?
A: G position / standard tuning. I hear lots of open strings, the characteristic sixth interval on top and a tonic bass note for the IV chord (C), so no open tuning

Q: What is unusual about the scale George Boldwin uses to sing the melody of the song?
A: I hear a major 7th quite often and also a #4 when he sings "...country..." at 0:25-0:26


"Fandango"
Q: What playing position/tuning did Bill Tatnall use to play the tune?
A: Open D (at D)

Q: What chord does he play at :30--:31, and where is it fretted?
A: E chord, second fret barre

Q: What other name for a Country Blues guitar instrumental might more aptly have been used for "Fandango"?
A: I'm not sure if I understand this question correctly. The way I understand it, the answer would be that this tune should rather be called something that's connected to "Siege of Sebastopol", which is the model tune for open D, rather than relating to "Spanish Fandango", which is the model tune for Open G tuning. So I'd call it "Siege".


Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 15, 2014, 10:16:10 AM
Hi all,
I've been transcribing the lyrics for Wallace Chains' version of "Ella Speed" on the last previous page of this thread, at http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89803#msg89803 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89803#msg89803) , and I think I have it except for one bent bracketed portion.  I'd very much appreciate help with that phrase.  Thanks.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 16, 2014, 03:15:10 AM
This is probably wrong, but what I hear is 'under the Union shed'. Was there a Union railway with sheds where trains were maintained?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 16, 2014, 03:32:40 AM
For Country Girl Blues and Fandango, I'll agree with mr mando on G standard and open D respectively. I don't know the answer to the question about the vocal scale on Country Girl Blues, but the sound he achieves is really haunting and effective. I'm going to suggest Breakdown as another possibility for the Fandango title?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 16, 2014, 06:53:09 AM
Thanks very much for "under the Union shed", Prof., it is spot on!  I would guess it was at Union Station, a common name for train stations in the U.S.  I will make the change.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on November 16, 2014, 09:13:53 AM
There's a line in a Jimmy and Mama Yancy tune: "...when the Centipede left the shed," referring to either when the engine or train left the station or the yard. I don't have the album on CD, so I'm going to have to dig out the LP (Atlantic SD 7229) and give it a spin to find out the specific song. Thanks to Google, I  learned that "The Centipede" was the nickname for the Baldwin DR-12-8-1500/2 locomotive, and perhaps was also used to refer to other engines and trains--at least by some.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on November 16, 2014, 10:36:23 AM
Rather than referring to the station or the yard, I think "shed" refers to the shed, which is the round house, a great turntable, and the individual engine sheds that radiate out from it. I don't know the particular context of the songs, but hearing an engine, like the Centipede, pull out of the shed would be distinctive in that the sound would be enclosed and then become much louder as it moved into the open. This would be a signal to hobos that a train had been made up by smaller yard engines and once coupled to the larger engine, was about to leave the station. Time to find an open empty boxcar or sneak into the blinds, or worse yet, strap yourself to the rods, if you wanted to be on that train. The significance of "the Centipede" would be that it likely drove a specific route and so it's individual sound would mean certain destinations to the hobos, just like a stationmaster calling destinations to ticket holders.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on November 16, 2014, 02:27:46 PM
Edited  to add: I found it, it's "Santa Fe Blues" and it's on Youtube. You can listen for yourself and decide on the meaning:

'Mama' Estelle and Jimmy Yancey -- Santa Fe Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_1gbPF9Huw#)

--at least in the context of the Yanceys' song.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original post:

In literal terms, I think you're correct Wax. It's most probably not a generic reference. I'm going to have to listen to the LP to identify the song and pin down the context--and try to locate lyrics if they are available. There was/is a railroad yard in the next town over from where I grew up in NJ (the "Loop" in Bay Head), but there weren't any sheds as it was the southern end of the Jersey Coast Line and the maintenance was done up north. However, there were stations with long cavernous covered platforms, like Newark, that might have been thought of, or referred to as a shed. Who  knows? Not I. I remember hearing "Centipede" 40+ years ago when I got the LP and thinking it was some general Blueism for a train--and didn't know that it was a specific reference.

There's a Bay Head Loop YT vid that brings back old memories of my taxi driving days. I used to drive the crews who would overnight at the railroad bunkroom around town to the various gin mills and greasy spoons. Some real characters and the stuff the Blues is made of.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 16, 2014, 03:03:48 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for George Boldwin's "Country Girl Blues" and Bill Tatnall's "Fandango"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on November 17, 2014, 04:01:49 AM
I think Boldwin's Country Girl is in Spanish and agree about the maj7 in the melody. What a weird one. Fandango sounds like Vestapol to me.

Re. Union shed - Belton Reese sings about "standing in the Union Shed" in McKenzie Case.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 17, 2014, 07:10:31 AM
Hi all,
Thank you for your responses.  Here are the answers for the puzzlers.  For George Boldwin's "Country Girl Blues":
   * Boldwin's playing position was G in standard tuning.  At about :16-:18, he does a couple of drag-throughs with his thumb from the fifth to the fourth strings, going from the II note of his scale on the fifth string to the V note of the scale on his fourth string.  This would suggest G, standard tuning, where the fifth string is tuned to A and the fourth string is tuned to D.  The same notes could be gotten in Spanish by fretting the fifth string at the second fret, but both strings sound open as he plays them.  Also, around the :28-:29 point, he plays a IV chord with its root in the bass that is voiced like a C chord in standard tuning, and which would be very awkward to play in Spanish.
   * The primary and most consistent oddity in Boldwin's scale that he sings the major seventh note, as mister mando and uncle bud had it.  The first time he sings it is when he sings the line, "Tell me where did you stay last night."  He sings no bVII notes in the course of his rendition, and the effect is an odd one, certainly not the norm in a song with blues phrasing.  It's the kind of sound you might expect to (but as far as I know, never did) hear from Robert Pete Williams.

For Bill Tatnall's "Fandango":
   * His tuning was "Vestapol", as you all had it.
   * I phrased my second question poorly, but the name I was thinking of for the tune was "Vestapol", which is sort of the identifying instrumental played in that tuning vs. Tatnall's title of "Fandango" which is usually the identifying title of an instrumental in Spanish tuning.  Mister mando essentially got at this point in his answer.

Thanks to all for your participation and well done for mister mando, who was spot on with his answers.  I'll look for some more puzzlers to post.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 18, 2014, 02:48:25 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you. The song is "Thunder in Germany", as performed by Joel Hopkins.  I know nothing about Hopkins or the circumstances in which the song was recorded, but I know Country Blues tracks 8:13 long are quite rare.  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/d071g_iYciA

Says, I was stud'in' in Germany, Red Cross on my arm
Says, I was stayin' in Germany, baby, with the Red Cross on my arm
I never heared nobody say, "Lord, son, I'll take you home."

You know, I'm motherless and fatherless, yes, I'm brotherless too
Yes, I'm motherless and fatherless, yes, I'm brotherless too
That's the reason I tried so hard, baby to make this trip with you

Got the blues so bad it hurt my feet to walk
Got the blues so bad, baby it hurts my feet to walk
And it settled on my brain, Lord God, hurts my tongue to talk

I got drunk last night, kicked the cover all on the floor
Got drunk last night, baby, cover all on the floor
If that ain't bad luck, Lord God, baby, I'd like to know

I'm gonna leave here walking, talkin' to myself
I'm gonna leave here walking, baby, talkin' to myself
I don't get the woman I'm looking for, don't want nobody else

I'm goin' to West Texas, jump down a prairie dog's hole
I'm goin' to West Texas, baby, jump down a prairie dog's hole
'Cause the East Tex women hate to see me go

Mmmmmmmmm, Lord have mercy on me
Hey hey, baby, Lord have mercy on me
Some of you brownskin women don't know what mercy means

SOLO

Yes, wished I was a catfish in the ol' sea
Says, I wished I was a catfish in the sea
Boy, these brownskin women be draftin' after me

Mmmmmmmmm, Lord have mercy on me
Hey hey, baby, Lord have mercy on me
Some of you brownskin women don't know what mercy means

SOLO

Got a brownskin woman, scared to call her name
Got a brownskin woman I'm scared to call her name
'Cause she's a married woman, love her just the same

Got a woman, lives up on the hill
Got a brownskin woman, she lives up on the hill
Said, that fool tried to quit me, man, I love her still

SOLO

One of these, ain't comin' back no more
Gonna leave this time, baby, ain't comin' back no more
Say, you know how you treated me when I was here before

Gonna take me and get me a rockin' chair
You gonna take me, baby, and get me a rockin' chair
That's, the blues overtake me, rock away from here

The questions are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Hopkins use to play "Thunder In Germany"?
   * Where did he play his signature lick, :06-:07 and throughout the rendition?  Place the lick in the meter and place it relative to the pulse.
   * Where does he fret and play what he plays under the first line of each verse?
   * Where is he fretting the portion of his solo that falls 3:50--3:57?
   * Where is he fretting what he plays from 5:09--5:15?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers until Thursday morning, November 20, so that plenty of people have a chance to listen to the track before answers are posted.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 19, 2014, 06:00:19 PM
Hi all,
I've been trying to get the lyrics to all of the songs in this thread transcribed, and one of the most difficult ones has proven to be Big Boy's "Blues", which can be found at http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87891#msg87891 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87891#msg87891) .  This might be my favorite performance in the entire thread, and I think it is every bit at the level of quality of such great train songs with narration as Booker White's "Special Streamline" and "Panama Limited" and John Hurt's "Talking Casey".  I believe I have most of the transcription done at this point, but I'm sure I've made some mistakes, and there are still some spots in bent brackets.  I'd very much appreciate some help with the transcription, and if you haven't listened to Big Boy's performance yet, you're in for a treat.  He had die-happy time.  Thanks for any help with the lyrics.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on November 19, 2014, 09:01:58 PM
Johnm, thanks for pointing me back to this, I'm not able to follow all the songs on this thread. This gets such drive from the swung eighth notes which I hear as great right hand work, but the slide comes into it, too.

In the spoken part I think he is saying HOME FLYIN' FREIGHT, which makes it one he wants to catch.

After the whistle blows I think he sorta stumbles on saying CLEAR OF THE CROSSING, and it comes out sounding like CLAR, or it could be a local pronunciation, which I think is the case with ACCUSIN', which sounds like ACCOOZIN', and I think is right. I don't think it's A COUSIN!?! (wink)

The last one is tough. I hear two words with SORRY the first word and then something like MAYDEE or MAYJEE? I thought maybe like MAJOR, but that seems weird. Since I can't think of anything that works it does throw SORRY into question, but that's sure what it sounds like to me.

Some help, I hope.

Wax

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 19, 2014, 09:33:02 PM
A very big help, Wax, thanks so much!  I really love this song and performance, but had wondered if it would be possible to transcribe it.  I think "home flyin' freight" and "clear" the crossing are spot on, and I've made the changes.  Now if we can just get that whatever it is "on some battlefield".  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dj on November 20, 2014, 12:05:15 PM
"Like a SOLDIER [LAYING?] on some battlefield" is as close as I can get.  Laying makes sense, but it sounds like Big Boy puts a d in there and says "lading".
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 20, 2014, 12:54:12 PM
Thanks very much for that, dj.  Could it be, "Like a soldier laid me on some battlefield", i.e., laid me down, wounded?  "Soldier" is terrific, and is right, I'm sure.  Good listening!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on November 20, 2014, 01:03:34 PM
Q: What playing position/tuning did Hopkins use to play "Thunder In Germany"?
A: A Position Standard tuning. The signature lick has a bVII to VIII not move that's mor comfortably in Standard than in spanish, and there's two places towards the end where you hear the typical Sound of a full E7 V chord, very different Sound than the five chord in open Tunings.

Q: Where did he play his signature lick, :06-:07 and throughout the rendition?  Place the lick in the meter and place it relative to the pulse.
A: Beat 1: open A string; Beat 2: open G string; Beat 2+: G string 2nd fret; Beat 3: A string 3rd fret Beat 4: open G string; Beat 4+: G string 2nd fret; Beats 1 and 3 I think are slightly before the beat, while beats 2 and 4 are a little behind the beats.

Q: Where does he fret and play what he plays under the first line of each verse?
A: fifth frets on the G and high e strings on beats 2 and 4

Q: Where is he fretting the portion of his solo that falls 3:50--3:57?
A: rocking between 2nd and 4th frets on the D string against 2nd fret G string, then 4th fret G string

Q: Where is he fretting what he plays from 5:09--5:15?
A: Similar to the previous answer, but then he bends the g string 4th fret up a whole tone, and builds a lick out of the notes used in the previous answer.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on November 20, 2014, 01:13:50 PM
Quote
* What playing position/tuning did Hopkins use to play "Thunder In Germany"?

I?m thinking of A-position, standard tuning. Most of the licks seem to sit nicely in this position, and I think I?m hearing the long A chord form played for the I chord. At around 5:34 I think I?m hearing (the only time throughout the whole rendition) a V chord played with an open position E7 chord.

Quote
* Where did he play his signature lick, :06-:07 and throughout the rendition?  Place the lick in the meter and place it relative to the pulse.

For beat one, a quarter note open 5th string; for beat two, two eighth notes, and open 3rd string, and an open 5th string again; for beat three a quarter note with the 5th string 3rd fret with a slight bend; and for the fourth beat two eighth notes, the open 3rd string, followed with the 3rd string 2nd fret. This is a simple, but very effective and funky riff.

Quote
* Where does he fret and play what he plays under the first line of each verse?

I?m hearing the open 5th string, followed by a double-stop with the 3rd and the 1st string played at the 5th fret, the 3rd string is bent up little.

Quote
* Where is he fretting the portion of his solo that falls 3:50--3:57?

I hear an open A chord X-0-2-2-(2)-X, followed by the 4th string 4th fret , then the 3rd string 2nd fret, then a double stop with the 4th string and 3rd string both at the 2nd fret, then the 3rd string 4th fret, followed by the 3rd string 2nd fret.

Quote
* Where is he fretting what he plays from 5:09--5:15?

I?m suggesting the open 5th string; then the 3rd string 5th fret bent up roughly a half-step; then the 3rd string 2nd fret; followed by the 4th string  4th fret; then the 3rd string 2nd fret again.
This is followed by the open 5th string again; then the 3rd string bent up a half-step again, but this time from the 4th fret, then the same string and fret bend released, then the 3rd string 2nd fret, followed by the 3rd string 4th fret; the 3rd string 2nd fret, the 4th string 4th fret; and the 3rd string 2nd fret again.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dj on November 20, 2014, 01:15:22 PM
Quote
Could it be, "Like a soldier laid me on some battlefield"

That's it, John.  Good ears.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jpeters609 on November 20, 2014, 01:31:39 PM
The song is "Thunder in Germany", as performed by Joel Hopkins.  I know nothing about Hopkins or the circumstances in which the song was recorded, but I know Country Blues tracks 8:13 long are quite rare.

John,
Joel Hopkins is actually Lightnin' Hopkins' older brother (second oldest, I believe). This is what AllMusic has to say:

b. 3 January 1904, Centreville, Texas, USA, d. 15 February 1975, Galveston, Texas, USA. An elder brother of Lightnin? Hopkins, guitarist Joel learned his trade from Blind Lemon Jefferson when they travelled together during the 20s. Joel Hopkins spent most of his life working outside of music, but in 1947 he accompanied his brother Lightin? on his famous Gold Star recording of ?Short Haired Woman?. He resurfaced in 1959 to record a handful of archaic Texas blues for historian and folklorist Mack McCormick. The latter part of his life was spent in ill health, and he died from a heart attack in 1975.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 20, 2014, 03:17:22 PM
Hi all,
Thanks to mister mando and Pan for their responses on the Joel Hopkins puzzler.  I want to wait a while before responding on that and give more folks a chance to post their answers, too.

I want to offer particular thanks to Waxwing and dj for their help with the Big Boy "Blues" transcription.  I'd gotten pretty close, but on those last few bits I was really stuck.  I'm excited to have the transcription now and be able to post it in Weeniepedia and enter Big Boy as an artist there, as well.  Thanks, guys!

Thanks as well to Jeff for the information on Joel Hopkins.  It's cool to hear something from one of Lightnin's older brothers.  From what you posted, Jeff, it seems very likely that "Thunder in Germany" was one of the tracks that Mack McCormick recorded in 1959, for that would make the length plausible--no commercial company at the time would have allowed an 8 minute take.  It's nice to have the context of the song enriched.  Youtube is a wonderful resource for hearing the music, but very few entries there have anything like adequate documentation and background information.  Thanks, Jeff.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on November 20, 2014, 03:27:18 PM
Hi John,

Re: the Big Boy lyrics -

You ever been down know 'bout how I feel
Like a soldier maybe on some battlefield.

"About" is approximating the feeling and "maybe" is a close example

Thanks,
           Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jpeters609 on November 20, 2014, 04:41:51 PM
Just so happens Stefan has a discography for Joel Hopkins:

http://www.wirz.de/music/hopkjfrm.htm (http://www.wirz.de/music/hopkjfrm.htm)

Looks like this song was indeed one of the Mack McCormick recordings from 1959.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Bunker Hill on November 20, 2014, 10:59:36 PM
Just so happens Stefan has a discography for Joel Hopkins:

http://www.wirz.de/music/hopkjfrm.htm (http://www.wirz.de/music/hopkjfrm.htm)

Looks like this song was indeed one of the Mack McCormick recordings from 1959.
As the link provided to another forum appears to be broken, here's my rather cringe making review of the LP from 25 years ago.

JOEL & LIGHTNIN' HOPKINS 1959
Collector's Issue C-5530
JH: Good Times Here, Better Down The Road/Match Box Blues/Accused Me Of Forgin', Can't Even Write My Name/l Ain't Gonna Roll For The Big Hat Man No More/ Thunder In Germany, Red Cross On My Own
LH: Long Way From Texas/Whiskey, Whiskey/Getting Out Of The Bushes Tap Dance/Suicide Blues/Look Out Settagast, Here Me And My Partner Come

Yet again it's taken an anonymous (and dubious?) source to bring back to catalogue a record of major documentary importance. This album (now with an additional track) originally appeared on Tony Standish's Heritage label and culled from Mack McCormick's attempts to document the surviving Texas blues traditions of the Fifties/Sixties. The star of the album is without doubt Lightnin?s elder brother Joel. Born 1904, a true throwback, Joel Hopkins' archaic vocal and rudimentary guitar playing were, in 1959, a far more logical continuation of the Texas tradition than that of younger brother Lightnin'. The extended vocal lines of Texas Alexander, the playing of JT "Funny Paper" Smith, even nuances of Ramblin' Thomas and Little Hat Jones can all be detected, but never more so than in the hypnotic, eight minute improvisation, "Thunder In Germany". Such was its impact on me the song got three successive plays. Fans of Lightnin' will probably find Joel in comparison earthy, by contrast stark and, musically, somewhat hard going.   

Lightnin's own contribution emanate from the same source and will for some be far easier listening. I well recall how primitive a practitioner I first thought him to be when introduced to his music in 1962, but back-to-back with Joel he sounds positively ordered. Given Hopkins's formative career as a juke box artist the temptation to class these post jukebox days as "Hopkins for the folklorists" is quite tempting, but to his credit Lightnin' turns in several committed reworkings, a charming rendition of "Creole Belles" (as "Getting Out Of The Bushes Tap Dance") and "Suicide Blues" has to be one of the most remarkable insights into the contemplation and effects of suicide that's ever been committed to tape. This, too, I played repeatedly just to convince myself of what I was hearing. Whilst there may be a few like minded souls who will purchase this record to expand their understanding of Texas blues most, I suspect, will ignore this album as not warranting the expense. What this reissue will definitely provoke in some of us is a lament for the stillborn Oliver/McCormick Texas book. If publication of the work has proved impossible how about a series of features for "Blues & Rhythm" based on the research? Paul? Mack? Anybody? 
Alan Balfour (Blues & Rhythm 53 July 1990)

LATER: Sorry I intended to include the following which was originally sent to accompany the B&R review but not used. From Jazz Journal, April 1960, p. 37
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 21, 2014, 08:38:18 AM
Thanks for re-printing your review of the disc that had Joel Hopkins' titles on it, Alan.  It's interesting that the McCormick/Oliver Texas Blues book's non-release was already being mourned 25 years ago!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 21, 2014, 08:39:50 AM
Hi all,
Are there any other takers for the Joel Hopkins puzzler, "Thunder in Germany"?  Come one, come all, and answer only as many of the questions as you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 21, 2014, 01:17:35 PM
FWIW the Big Boy "battlefield" line is in Tampa Red's Western Bound Blues
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on November 21, 2014, 04:48:01 PM
Thanks Phil - I wish the lines matched better:

If you ever been down I know you know just how I feel
If you ever been down you know just how I feel
Why I feel just like a dyin soldier across the battlefield

Thanks,
           Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 21, 2014, 10:18:44 PM
Hi all,
It doesn't appear that their will be more responses on the "Thunder in Germany" puzzler, Joel Hopkins' recording, so I'll post the answers to the questions now.  Here they are.
   * Joel Hopkins did play the song out of A position in standard tuning as both mister mando and Pan had it.
   * His signature lick is just as Pan had it:
      Beat 1: Open 5th string
      Beat 2 + : Open 3rd string going to the open 5th string
      Beat 3:  Bent 3rd fret of the 5th string
      Beat 4 +:  Open 3rd string going to the 2nd fret of the 3rd string
   * Behind the first vocal phrase in each of his verses, he hits the open 5th string on beats one and three and pinches the bent 5th fret of the 3rd string along with 5th fret of the 1st string on beats 2 and 4
   * In the passage from 3:50--3:57, Joel Hopkins is, in the general sense moving around what he hits with his thumb in the right hand falling on the beat and with his index finger picking the 3rd string on the +s of the beats.  He is holding down an A partial barre with his index finger at the second fret across to the fourth string.  In the first measure, his thumb strikes the open 5th string on beat one, the fourth fret of the fourth string on beat two, the second fret of the fourth string on beat three and the fourth fret of the third string on beat four.  In that same measure, his index finger picks the second fret of the third string on the +s of beats one, two and four.  In the second measure of this passage, his thumb brushes the fourth and third strings at the second fret on beat one, strikes the fourth fret of the fourth string on beat two, brushes the fourth, third and second strings at the second fret on beat three, and strikes the fourth fret of the third string on beat four.  In the second measure, the index finger picks the second fret of the third string on the + of each beat.  In the third measure, his thumb brushes the second fret of the fourth, third and second strings on beat one, gets the fourth fret of the fourth string on beat two, brushes the second fret of the fourth, third and second strings on beat three and hits the fourth fret of the third string on beat four, with the index finger picking the second fret of the third string on the + of each beat. 
Thinking about how he uses his left hand in this passage, he is striking only barred notes with his thumb on beats one and three of each measure, and is hitting either the fourth fret of the fourth or third strings with his thumb on beats two and four. 
   * In the passage from 5:09--5:15, he is working out the partially barred position at the second fret again.  I think he is doing all of his bends at the fourth fret of the third string--he has an unwound string there and can bend it extravagantly.  In the first measure he hits the open fifth string on beat one, on beat two he hits the fourth fret of the third string with a very big bend, which he ties into beat three.  On the + of beat three, he goes to the barred note at the second fret of the third string, and on 4+ he goes from the fourth fret of the fourth string back up to the second fret of the third string.  In the second measure, on 1+ he goes from the open fifth string to a bend of the third string at the fourth fret.  On 2+ he does a pull-off from the fourth to the second fret of the third string and resolves down to the fourth fret of the fourth string.  On 3+ he goes from the fourth fret of the third string to the second fret of the third string, and on 4+ he goes from the fourth fret of the fourth string back up to the second fret of the third string.  He continues on in this vein with minor variations for two more measures.
One thing that struck me in listening to this passage was the extent to which he was working very much the same territory in the left hand, even to the extent of using the very same bends as did Garfield Akers in "Dough Roller Blues".  I'm not suggesting that Joel Hopkins copied Garfield Akers' recording, and in fact think it is very unlikely that Joel Hopkins ever heard Akers' recordings or even heard of Akers.  I think it is much more likely simply a case of the same possibility in the language of the blues in A position in standard tuning occurring to, and being utilized by two very different players from different places and different times.
I very much like Joel Hopkins' singing and playing on "Thunder in Germany".  He doesn't have the other-worldly vocal instrument and charisma that his brother Lightnin' had, but he did just fine on his own--he sounds great.  I believe, too, that the title, "Thunder in Germany" is a Mondegreen, or phonetic approximation of what Joel Hopkins sang, which is altogether different.  The phrase "Thunder in Germany" is never sung in the song.
Thanks to mister mando and Pan for their participation.  I think you guys both had a very good idea of where everything was happening on the guitar.  I'll try to find another puzzler soon.
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Bunker Hill on November 21, 2014, 11:22:10 PM
About a decade ago it was suggested that Hopkins sang "Soldiers dyin' in Germany, Red Cross on my arm. Can't recall the source!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 23, 2014, 09:50:03 AM
Thanks, Phil and Scott, for the additional thoughts on that verse in Big Boy's "Blues".  It's interesting to know a different source for the verse, or at least one very much like verse one Big Boy sang.  I don't think the "maybe" in the last line works, Scott.  It's seems too modern or something, as well as diffident in a way that doesn't seem plausible.  It just would seem kind of weird to use a simile and then hedge your bets by saying "Well, it's sort of like that, maybe."
Thanks also, Alan, for the thought on the first verse of "Thunder in Germany".  I've transcribed it the way I hear it, at the original post of the song at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89913#msg89913 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89913#msg89913) .
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 24, 2014, 01:02:18 PM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The song is "Ol Time Rounders" by Emmet Murray, a Florida musician who was recorded in the 1980s.  Pan originally provided a link to a podcast that included this performance a couple of years ago, at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=7053.msg55949#msg55949 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=7053.msg55949#msg55949) .  I think both the song and Emmet Murray's performance of it are terrific.  Here it is:

OL' TIME ROUNDERS by MR. EMMETT MURRAY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDnsYRyBCAM#ws)

Captain got a way he got to stop
A-wakin' me up at four o'clock
All of you old, long-time a-rounders, you better lie down

You lay down late, and you get up soon
Can't see nothin' but the stars and the moon
All of you old, long-time rounders, you better lie down

It look mighty cloudy, but it ain't gon' rain
You look on the table, it's the same old thing
All of you old, long-time rounders, you better lie down

If I'd a-knowed my Captain was mean
I wouldn't ever left St. Augustine
All of you old, long-time rounders, you better lie down

You lay down late, and you get up soon
You can't see nothin' but the stars and the moon
All of you old, long-time a-rounders, you better lie down

SPOKEN EXCHANGE:  "Remember when the Captain used to do you that-a way, then.  "Me too, boy."  "Yeah."

May be crazy, but I ain't no fool
I'm goin' down in Florida where I won't have a plow nor mule
All of you old, long-time rounders better lie down

You lay down late, and you get up soon
You can't see nothin' but the stars and the moon
All of you old, long-time a-rounders, you better lie down

There are just two questions on "Ol Time Rounders":
   * What playing position/tuning did Emmet Murray use to play the song?
   * What are the pitches to which his strings are tuned?

I consider this a tough puzzler, and a particularly strong performance, so I'd like to allow more time than usual for folks to come up with their answers, so please don't post any answers to the questions before Friday morning, November 28.  As usual, please use only your ears and your instruments to figure out your answers.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 28, 2014, 01:32:14 AM
Well, I'll have a go! Open C tuning. My guess for the notes is: CGEGCE. Whatever the actual tuning is, it certainly produces a haunting accompaniment. Great sound.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on November 28, 2014, 07:53:44 AM
Hi all.

I may very well be wrong, but I'm going to suggest standard tuning, E position tuned really low. I think he's tuned down a major 3rd, to C, so the tuning would be C-F-Bb-Eb-G-C, if I got it right.

Emmet Murray is a fantastic musician, thanks for posting this, John!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 28, 2014, 07:57:22 AM
You may well be right, Pan!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 28, 2014, 11:20:23 AM
This is a real teaser isn't it? but what a fantastic tune.  It sounds like it's coming from a really deep place.  I'm getting the E high and low strings tuned right down to C and have been trying all sorts of weird and, some not so wonderful, combinations.  Last night I was trying to get this in the Vestapol tuning, tuned right down to C in the bass.  Then I had the tune bouncing around in my head all night and lay awake at 3 this morning thinking I was over complicating this and my latest attempts are standard tuning, tuned way down to C in the low E and playing out of E position as Pan suggests.  Which I was relieved  to see.   Missing the best part of a night's sleep may not have been in vain!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frailer24 on November 28, 2014, 11:32:23 AM
Could be E position, 2 steps low, or this tuning I've been working with: CGCGBD.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 28, 2014, 05:21:28 PM
Hi all,
Thank you for your responses.  Despite the fact that there were only two questions with regard to Emmet Murray's "Ol' Time Rounders", it has been the most difficult of all the puzzlers posted in this thread to figure out and be satisfied that I had it right.  Here are the answers that I came up with, followed by the reasoning/hearing behind them.
   * I believe Emmet Murray played "Ol Time Rounders" out of E position in standard tuning
   * His guitar was pitched with its open strings sounding at C-F-Bb-Eb-G-C
In determining the playing position for "Ol' Time Rounders", the first point was that the open sixth string was the lowest pitch struck and is the I note of the key in which the song is sounding.  This eliminates most playing positions/tunings, but left as possibilities:
   * E position in standard tuning
   * Dropped D tuning
   * Vestapol
   * Cross-note
   * Open C (low)
   * EAEGBE
   * DGDGBE, played in D position
As Emmet Murray begins his third verse, at :53, he does a thumb drag from from his open sixth string to his open fifth string, sounding a I note on the sixth string and a IV note on his open fifth string.  Having an interval of a fourth between the sixth and the fifth string eliminates Dropped D tuning, Vestapol, Cross-note and open C tuning from the running, since they all have an interval of a fifth between their open sixth string and the open fifth string.  That leaves the following positions/tunings in the running:
   * E position, standard tuning
   * DGDGBE tuning, played in D position
   * EAEGBE tuning
As Emmet Murray begins his second verse, at :34--:36, he twice hits a sonority where he hits a ringing VI note on his fifth string, with a I chord voiced Root-3-5-Root on the fourth through first strings above it.  That sonority leaves E position in standard tuning in the running, because you can voice such a chord as X-4-2-1-0-0.  DGDGBE tuning in D position is eliminated by this sonority, though, because while you can get the VI note on the fifth string, at the fourth fret, you can't play that note and let it sustain and voice a D chord Root-3-5-Root above it, since the first string is one whole step above the higher of the two roots in that voicing.  You just don't have the notes to do it.   EAEGBE tuning remains a possibility, since you could get the sonority by fingering X-4-0-1-0-0.
Fairly near the beginning of the song, Emmet Murray plays an ascending bass run which has him climbing up from the low Root on his open sixth string to IV, up to V, up to bVII and resolving up to the Root an octave above where he started the run.  In E position in standard tuning, those notes sit so easily and naturally accessible at the open sixth string, the open fifth string, the second fret of the sixth string, the open fourth string and the second fret of the fourth string.  The tuning more or less gives you the run.  The same run can be played in EAEGBE tuning, but it lies so much less naturally and intuitively, at the open sixth string, the open fifth string, the second fret of the fifth string, the fifth fret of the fifth string and the open fourth string--not impossible to play, but at the same time not exactly under the hand.
Taken in sum, this process eliminates every one of the possible tunings at the starting point of the identification process with the exception of E position in standard tuning and EAEGBE tuning.  EAEGBE tuning would make enough other aspects of what goes on in the left hand of the song very unusual, to the extent that I'm satisfied that it eliminates itself, though it would probably be possible to figure out a way to play the song using that tuning.
Let's hear it for E standard tuning, then, as the position that Emmet Murray used to play "Ol' Time Rounders", and congratulations to Pan for making that identification in the first place.  It's kind of amazing when you think of how much hard listening and skull work it takes just to figure out what playing position Emmet Murray used for the piece--whew!
I don't know how much other recording Emmet Murray did, but from my point of view it all belongs on an easily accessible CD, that could be bought and listened to over and over.  Even if there's nothing else by him out there, I anticipate doing that kind of listening to "Ol' Time Rounders" in any event.

Thanks for your participation, and I'll post a new puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm 
     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on November 28, 2014, 06:15:49 PM
Thank you again for your detailed analysis, John!

Being a big Emmet Murray fan, I'd like to point out, that the Dust-to-Digital collection "Drop On Down In Florida: Field Recordings Of African American Tradition" has, among some other gems, altogether 6 Emmett Murray tunes, recorded on field by Dwight DeVane and  Peggy A. Bulger on April 8, 1980. They are:

- Old Time Rounders
- She's a Fool, She Ain't Got No Sense
- Mobile Blues
- I'm Gonna Dig Myself a Hole
- I'll Find My Way
- Drinkin' Bad Bad Whiskey

I'm not aware of any further recordings by Emmet  Murray.

http://www.ideabooks.nl/9781938922244-drop-on-down-in-florida-field-recordings-of-african-american-traditi (http://www.ideabooks.nl/9781938922244-drop-on-down-in-florida-field-recordings-of-african-american-traditi)

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frailer24 on November 29, 2014, 02:11:44 AM
Looks like I need to get me ears cleaned.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 29, 2014, 11:18:46 AM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The song is Willie Lane's "Too Many Women Blues", recorded in 1949.  Boy, did he know what he was doing!  Here is his performance:

Willie Lane - Too Many Women Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhGpyRM0DbU#)

I've got so many women, I don't hardly know who to choose
I've got so many women, I don't hardly know who to choose
Boy, I wake up every morning, I got too many women blues

I've got a little bitty woman, she lives down in Arkansas
Little bitty woman, she lives down in Arkansas
She's pigeon-toed, she's bow-legged, she got dimples all in her jaw

SOLO

Some red, some yella, some is black, some is teasin' brown
Some is red, some is yella, some is black, some is teasin' brown
You can't tell much about 'em, 'cause they're scattered all over town

Five on the South Side, seven on the East Side
Nine on the West Side, North Side, too
Ten out in Oak Lawn, 'leven on Sixth Avenue
I've got twelve in the Bottom, thirteen in TCU

SPOKEN:  Too many women, they waren't good

Here are the questions on "Too Many Women Blues"
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Lane use to play the song?
   * Where is he fretting the positions he plays in the fifth and six bars of the first verse, at :19--:23?
   * Where does he fret the fill he plays at :37--:39 in the second verse?
   * Where does he fret the descending run at 1:23--1:25 of his solo?
   * In the lyric break that starts at 1:57, what two chords is he rocking back and forth between?

Answer however many of the questions you're comfortable addressing, but please use only your ears and your instruments to figure out your answers.  Please don't post any answers until Monday morning, December 1, to give plenty of people an opportunity to listen to the song and formulate their own answers before answers start being posted.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 29, 2014, 11:21:05 AM
Thanks for the tip on the Dust-to Digital release that includes all of Emmett Murray's cuts, Pan.  I'll have to pick that up.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on December 01, 2014, 09:14:06 AM
I guess I'll go first.
Guitar tuned to standard EADGBE, playing in the key of A.

Playing in the 5th and 6th bars, he plays an F on the 3rd fret of the fourth string to pickup to the F# on the 4th fret of the same string. The chord is fretted 4232, fourth to first strings. Then he moves to an F on the fourth string, and fingers a D minor chord fretted 3231, fourth to first strings.

The fill at :37 - :39 is played at the 7th fret, he plays 78 on the first two strings, and bends them.

The descending run at 1:23--1:25 is played as triplets, except the last two notes, something like this:

E|-------------|
B|4321---------|
G|----21-------|
D|------210----|
A|---------3 0 |
E|-------------|


at 1:57, the two chords are C#7 and D7. Both are fingered the same with the first 3 fingers each catching a note. A cool voicing:
 
E|-------------
B|-------------
G|-4-5-4-5-4-5-
D|-3-4-3-4-3-4-
A|-2-3-2-3-2-3-
E|-------------


Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 01, 2014, 10:19:03 AM
I have standard tuning A position. For the section from :19 to :23 I hear a D7 chord fingered xx4535 resolving to xx3525. from :37 to :39 it's a bent chord x0x878. for the descending run, it's something like str/fret 2/1,0; 3/2,1,0; 4/2,1,0; 5/0,3bend,0. I can't figure out the two minor sounding chords at 1:57!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 01, 2014, 12:51:35 PM
I'm getting standard tuning in A also.  The fretting positions he plays at :19--:23 in the fifth bar I'm saying D7 4535 (4th string to 1st) not sure about the 6th bar though so I'm going to keep a dignified silence on that one.  Could he be he fretting the fill he plays at :37--:39 in the second verse at 3rd string 12 fret, 2nd string 13th fret?
The descending run at 1:23--1:25 of his solo is lovely and possibly
E|-------------|
B|431---------|
G|----20-------|
D|------210----|
A|---------3 0 |
E|-------------|

very close to Davek, but I'm just not hearing all of those notes.  But because I don't hear them doesn't mean they're not there.....phew pure Zen, that!

The two chords he's rocking back and forth between at 1:57 I'm not so sure about but I'm going to go with a C9 at the 3rd fret to C#9 at the 4th fret.

As always. looking forward to the answer.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on December 01, 2014, 06:33:10 PM
Hi all

Here's my attempt to answer the puzzler.

Quote
Here are the questions on "Too Many Women Blues"
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Lane use to play the song?

I agree with A-position, standard tuning.

   
Quote
* Where is he fretting the positions he plays in the fifth and six bars of the first verse, at :19--:23?

I agree with the chords Professor Scratchy proposed, only I think there?s a typo on the second one, the Dm7 should have a 3rd fret instead the 2nd fret, on the 2nd string: xx3535.

 
Quote
* Where does he fret the fill he plays at :37--:39 in the second verse?

I hear just the open  5th string and a double-stop played against it, on the 2nd string 7th fret and 1st string 8th  fret, bent up a little.

 
Quote
* Where does he fret the descending run at 1:23--1:25 of his solo?

That?s a tough one, it being so fast. I think he starts with a bend up a whole step from the 3rd fret 2nd string; followed by the 3rd fret 2nd string bend released; then the 1st fret 2nd string.
Then 2nd fret 3rd string; to open 3rd string; to 2nd fret 4th string.
Then the 1st fret 4th string to open 4th string and open 3rd string.
All this played in triplets, then two eight notes, the 3rd fret 5th string bent a little, followed by the open 5th string.

   
Quote
* In the lyric break that starts at 1:57, what two chords is he rocking back and forth between?

Agreed again with the Professor, on the minor sound. I?m going to suggest an E chord X-X-X-1-0-0, followed by an Am chord X-X-X-2-1-0.

Looking forward for the verdict again. Another great choice, John, thank you!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 02, 2014, 10:28:21 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for your participation in the "Too Many Women Blues" puzzler.  Here are the answers:
   * Willie Lane did play the song out of A position in standard tuning as you all had it.  Well done!
   * In the fifth and sixth bars of his first verse, at :19--:23, Willie Lane goes from a D7 in his fifth bar, voiced X-X-4535, and after a brief little pick-up note on the open fourth string, resolves to a little three-string partial F chord, voiced X-X-3-2-1-X, in the sixth bar.  The F leads beautifully to his I chord, A, when he resolves to it in his seventh bar, because he uses the first fret of the second string and the second fret of the third string, both of which he was already fretting in the F chord.  By using the F chord in this context, he gets much the same effect he would have gotten by going from IV major, D, to IV minor, D minor, with the F# to F interior resolution capturing the essence of that sound.  The F chord is a bVI chord relative to the key of A, and is often used as a substitution for a IV minor chord.
   * The little interior fill that Willie Lane plays in the middle of his vocal phrase at :37--:39 is achieved by bending the first and third strings at the 8th fret.  The two notes being bent, then, are Eb on the third string, a bV in the key of A, and C on the first string, a bIII.  It has a bit of a partial diminished seventh chord sound here--try playing the double stop at the fifth fret of the first and third strings and just move it up three frets to the eight fret, bending as you go, and I think you'll catch that sound.  It is sure a grungy sounding double bend and sounds like a million bucks the way Willie Lane does it here.
   * The descending triplet run that Willie Lane plays from 1:23--1:25 lives like so:
      On beat one, a triplet going from a slightly bent fourth fret of the third fret of the second string to the first fret of the second string;
      On beat two, a triplet going from second fret of the third string to the open third string to the second fret of the fourth string;
      On beat three, a triplet going from first fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string and back up to the open third string;
      On beat four, a broken triplet, with the bent third fret of the fifth string holding for the duration of the first two notes of the underlying triplet followed by the open fifth string on the last note of that triplet, resolving up to the second fret of the third string on the downbeat of the next measure.
This is a really cool run and I think the coolest part of it is the triplet he plays on the third beat; the way that he comes back to the open third string for the third note of that triplet arrests the downward motion in a way that acts like a little rhythmic speed bump--ultra cool.
   * In the lyric break, starting at 1:57 he rocks between an E chord, voiced X-X-1-0-0 to an A minor partial, voiced X-X-X-2-1-X, with the E chords falling on the weak beat, four, and the A minors falling on the strong beat, one.
Everyone who participated had at least a couple of the questions right on the money, and among the group, I think the questions were all pretty much answered. 
One sort of unrelated note regarding Willie Lane:  he is sometimes credited with having recorded a tune at Huntsville Prison in Texas for Alan Lomax entitled "Building Up and Down the KC Line", by virtue of that inmate going by the name Little Brother, which Willie Lane evidently also used in a session he backed J. T. Smith on that was never released.  As it happens, Little Brother's recording of "Building Up and Down the KC Line" was one of the first tunes we looked at in this thread, at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87671#msg87671 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87671#msg87671) , and if you return to it and re-listen to it, and then re-listen to Willie Lane's "Too Many Women Blues", I don't see how one could come to any conclusion other than that it was two different people who recorded those two cuts.  Apart from the fact that both performances feature a singer accompanying himself on guitar, they have nothing in common with regard to instrumental or vocal tone, touch on the instrument, sense of time, etc.  The attribution of "Building Up and Down the KC Line" to the Willie Lane who recorded in 1949 is wrong.
Thanks for participating, and I'll post another puzzler soon.
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 03, 2014, 06:01:54 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those who are interested.  The song is Charlie McCoy's "Motherless and Fatherless Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/1W17fz80sJE

I say, I'm motherless and I'm fatherless, and I've been misled
I say, I'm motherless and I'm fatherless, and I've been misled
And it have caused rocks to be my pillow, and concrete to be my bed

I say, I looked at my Mother's picture, hanging upside the wall
Looked at my Mother's picture, hanging upside the wall
And I say, every time I see it, the tears begin to fall

I say, if I could see her smilin' face once more
If I could see her smilin' face once more
I say, I would be through with driftin', babe, from door to door

I say, before I lost my Mother, had friends for miles in 'round
Before I lost my Mother, had friends for miles in 'round
I say, since I've lost her, friends can not be found

I used to call my Mother, she used to come to me
Used to call my Mother, she used to come to me
I say, but nowr I'm calling, and she can't answer me

The questions are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Charlie McCoy use to play the song?
   * Where is Charlie McCoy fretting what he plays behind his singing in the first two bars, from :06--:10?
   * Where does Charlie McCoy fret the descending run he plays from :25--:27?
   * Where does Charlie McCoy play the descending run from :53--:54?

Please use only your ears and instruments to come up with your answers, and please don't post any answers before Friday morning, December 5.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 05, 2014, 01:07:31 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Charlie McCoy puzzler on "Motherless and Fatherless Blues"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 06, 2014, 04:18:41 AM
Oh well, if there are no takers I'll go first again (always brings a smile to bnemerov)! I'll say Vestapol at F. I can't really make out what's going on under the vocal at the start of the song. From 06 to 10  I think it's something like third and second strings at the third fret, descending to the second fret, then a bent note on the fourth string at the third fret, then open fourth string followed by open first. For the phrase at 53 to 54, it sounds like he uses the slide from 11th to 12th fret descending from 1st string, to second string, to third string , to fourth.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on December 06, 2014, 05:11:05 AM
Q: What playing position/tuning did Charlie McCoy use to play the song?
A: Vestapol at F (agree with Prof Scratchy)

Q: Where is Charlie McCoy fretting what he plays behind his singing in the first two bars, from :06--:10?
A: 1st string-10th fret / 2nd string-12th fret (relative to the capo) on beats 2, 4+, 1, 2+, 3, 3+, 4

Q: Where does Charlie McCoy fret the descending run he plays from :25--:27?
A: string/fret: (1st triplet) 1/0-2/3-2/0 (2nd tripet) 3/1-3/0-1+2/0 (broken triplet) 4/3b-1+2+4/0

Q: Where does Charlie McCoy play the descending run from :53--:54?
A: 1st string slide to 7th, back to 5th fret, (fingered?) 3rd fret, 2nd string slide to 5th fret

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on December 06, 2014, 02:48:49 PM
Agreed with vestapol, but I'm hopeless with slide tunes. 

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harriet on December 07, 2014, 07:14:15 AM
I'll probably wind up as a candidate for ear cleaning...     
    * What playing position/tuning did Charlie McCoy use to play the song? open g tuning

   * Where is Charlie McCoy fretting what he plays behind his singing in the first two bars, from :06--:10? 3rd-5th fret e and b string
   * Where does Charlie McCoy fret the descending run he plays from :25--:27? 3rd fret g and d string
   * Where does Charlie McCoy play the descending run from :53--:54?5th fret e and 3 fret d
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 07, 2014, 10:38:23 AM
Hi all,
Thanks to all who participated in the "Motherless and Fatherless Blues" puzzler.  Here are the answers:
   * The song was played out of Vestapol tuning.  Sounds that aid in that identification are the fact that Charlie McCoy never plays a lower-pitched note than the open sixth string, which is also the I note, or key center for the song.  Vestapol and cross-note place the I note on the open sixth string, whereas Spanish tuning places its lowest-pitched I note on the fifth string, with a V note being the pitch of the open sixth string.  Also, when he walks into the IV chord, placing its third on the fifth string, he has four strings sounding above it and the I note on top; the analogous position in Spanish tuning would have only three strings above it, and a V note on top.
   * The position Charlie McCoy played from :06--:10 is just as mr mando had it, with the first string fretted at the tenth fret and the second string fretted at the twelfth fret.  That little double stop gives him the seventh of the I chord at the tenth fret of the first string and the fifth of the I chord at the twelfth fret of the second string.  This was kind of a pet position for Charlie McCoy, and he's the only player I've heard who used it in Vestapol.  On his recording of "Last Time Blues", he uses the same position but for his IV chord, fretting the third fret of the first string and the fifth fret of the second string.  That recording is discussed in another thread here which can be located via the tags index.
   * Charlie McCoy start the descending run from :25--:27 on the second beat of the measure.  On that second beat, he strikes the open fifth string with his thumb on the beat, pinching the open first string at the same time, continuing on in the treble with a triplet going to the third fret of the second string and then to the open second string.  On the third beat, he plays another triplet in the treble, pulling off from the first fret of the third string to the open third string and then resolving up to the open first string, while his thumb strikes the open fifth string on beat three and pinches the open fourth string simultaneous with the open first string that it is the last note of the treble triplet.  On beat four, he does a broken triplet pinch of the first and fourth strings, with the first string being picked open twice in rhythmic unison with the thumb in the right hand striking first the bent third fret of the fourth string and then the open fourth string.
   * Charlie McCoy's descending run from :53--:54 is very much as Prof Scratchy had it.  On beat two of the measure, Charlie McCoy does a triplet with his slide, first sliding up into the twelfth fret of the second string, then sliding down to the tenth fret of the second string for the second note of the triplet, getting the third note of the triplet at the twelfth fret of the third string and getting the twelfth fret of the fourth string on beat three.  The notes of the run, then, relative to his key are V-IV-III in the triplet, resolving to I at the twelfth fret of the first string.  The run really is a model of economy in the left hand--you barely have to move the left hand at all.
I never hear Charlie McCoy's name mentioned when people talk about slide players, but he had a beautiful tone and was very accurate with his pitch.  His sound was sort of hyper-controlled; it is very much of a "set piece" sort of sound, and perhaps lacked the excitement generated by less precise players like Fred McDowell who had more powerful and active rhythmic engines.  There's room for all sorts of approaches, though, and there's much to be learned from Charlie McCoy, if only because he didn't really sound like anyone else playing slide.
Thanks to all who participated, and I'll try to find another puzzler to post soon.  Please let me know if anyone has any questions.

All best,
Johnm
     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 08, 2014, 10:29:00 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you--Scrapper Blackwell's "Goin' Where the Monon Crosses the Yellow Dog", recorded by Art Rosenbaum in Indianapolis in 1961.  This is such assured guitar-playing, and I particularly like Scrapper's singing here, too.  Here is his rendition:

Scrapper Blackwell - Goin' Where The Monon Crosses The Yellow Dog (1961) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQd1yWNp-ss#)

INTRO

Girl, I'm goin' where the Monon crosses the Yellow Dog
Lord, I'm goin' where the Monon crosses the Yellow Dog
Lord, they treat me like a possum, I would be out in the log

Lord, you be good to me, and I'll sure be good to you
Lord, be good to me, and I'll sure be good to you
Girl, that's the kind of way, I caused you want to do

I laid last night a-sleepin', Lord, a-thinkin' to myself
I laid last night a-thinkin', oh my God, a-thinkin' to myself
Lord, if you wanted someone, I guess you wanted someone else

SOLO (Spoken: Oh, I know what's the matter now)

What's the matter with you, child?  You cryin' every day
What's the matter with you, child?  You cryin' every day
Lord, that's all right, I'll hold your head wherever you lay

I cooked your breakfast, I brought it to your little bed
Lord, I cooked your breakfast, Lord, I brought it to your bed
I was a man enough to hold your little old achin' head

SOLO


The questions are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Scrapper use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret and how did he pick the fill from :07--:09?
   * Where did he fret the portion of his turn-around from :31--:33?
   * Where does he fret the chord positions he plays from 1:12--1:23?
   * What are left and right hands doing in the passage from 2:35--2:41 and where does it sit in the pulse?

This is more complicated and virtuosic playing than we sometimes have in the quizzes, so let's allow a little more time before posting answers.  Please don't post any answers before Thursday morning, December 11, and as always, please use only your ears and your instruments to figure out your answers.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 11, 2014, 09:54:49 AM
Will start this off as unfortunately have had very little time recently due to a house move but glad to get back involved with these particularly as Scrapper Blackwell is one of my favourites.  Not got around to answering all questions but this is what I've got for starters:
What playing position/tuning did Scrapper use to play the song?
  E, standard tuning
   * Where did he fret and how did he pick the fill from :07--:09?
Is this just on the 3rd (thumb) and 1st (index) strings? something like
0 - 2 - 0 slide into 4 - 0 - 2- 0
x - x - x               x - x - x - x
1 - 2 - 1 slide into 4 - 1 - 2- 1
 
   * Where did he fret the portion of his turn-around from :31--:33?
x
x  also making use of this open b string
4
3
x
4
   * Where does he fret the chord positions he plays from 1:12--1:23?
Not got to this yet
   * What are left and right hands doing in the passage from 2:35--2:41 and where does it sit in the pulse?
Is his left hand playing a long A chord, barred at the 2nd fret and his right hand is using 3 picking fingers to pick out the barred notes, then hitting the barred chord and snapping the high A note at the 5th fret?  A bit too vague, but all I've got at the moment.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 12, 2014, 03:37:57 AM
Ii agree with Old Man Ned that it's standard tuning, key of E, pitched around Fsharp/G.

For the first question: 2 fret third string, plus open first string then bouncing between open first string and first string at second fret twice before sliding position up via third fret to fourth fret, then with open first string sliding back to second fret and hammering on/pulling off first string at second fret. (Much easier to do than to explain)!!

For the turnaround, i think he slides an abbreviated B7 shape up two frets (x434xx) then back down again whilst also playing open first string

For the next question: he takes abbreviated B7 position up the neck to sound E7 at 076700, then slides that position down one fret to Eb7 and back.

For the last part, I can't describe the answer to the question about pulse, but I think he plays an abbreviated A7 chord with A in the bass and hammering to the second string at second fret followed by open first string twice and then first string at third fret bend and repeat a further three times.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on December 12, 2014, 05:43:24 AM
Hi all

Thanks for posting this tune, and making us listen more closely to what Scrapper Blackwell does. He sure has a virtuoso picking style, that makes it sometimes hard to figure out what he's exactly doing! I found this to be a difficult tune for sure!

Anyway, here are my thoughts.

Quote
The questions are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Scrapper use to play the song?

I'll agree with Old Man Ned and the Professor, for E-position standard tuning.

   
Quote
* Where did he fret and how did he pick the fill from :07--:09?

Against the open low E string, double stops on strings 3 & 1 as follows: 1-0, 2-2-and 3-3, the lower 3rd string mentioned first. I have no idea how he picks it! Maybe with the thumb and index? Or he?s using a flatpick and adding the index finger for some kind of hybrid picking?

   
Quote
* Where did he fret the portion of his turn-around from :31--:33?
Again really not sure. Could he be moving a partial F-shaped chord down from the 2nd fret, against the high open E-string?  Maybe  X-4-X-3-2-0; to  X-3-X-2-1-0; to an open E chord X-2-2-1-0-0?

   
Quote
* Where does he fret the chord positions he plays from 1:12--1:23?
The first chord sounds like an E7 from the 5th fret: 0-X-6-7-5-7, but then he rocks back and forth between an E7 and an A9 chord with open E and B strings ringing out, if I?m not mistaken? 0-X-6-7-0-0, to 0-X-5-6-0-0.

 
Quote
* What are left and right hands doing in the passage from 2:35--2:41 and where does it sit in the pulse?

I think the left hand maybe holds a partial A9 chord; X-0-2-0-0-0, then the 2nd fret of the 2nd string is quickly hammered on and off, then the 3rd fret of the 1st string bent a little. It would be easier, if the 4th string fret note is fretted with the index, leaving the index and ring finger free to do the slur and bend, I think. I think the Professor described pretty much the same in different words. I have no idea how he does this with his picking hand, and how to describe the complex syncopated rhythm. I?d have to slow it down, and try to write it down.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 12, 2014, 03:48:45 PM
Hi all,
It looks like as many people as were going to respond to the Scrapper Blackwell puzzler have already done so, so I'll post the answers.  Before I get into them, a word about Scrapper's approach in the right hand.  He sounds to me as though he is playing with flesh in the right hand, no nails or picks, and is getting very deep into his strings, which enables him to snap them, but also to play very hard  without them buzzing or bottoming out.  He is particularly adroit with his thumb is and is perfectly comfortable playing single notes or heavy, very controlled brush strokes.  His sound is distinctive because he plays very hard but also very clean, which is an unusual combination--his sound is not "crashy" or uncontained at all.  He has a big beautiful clean sound.
Here are the answers to the "Going Where the Monon Crosses the Yellow Dog" puzzler:
   * He did play the song out of E position in standard tuning, as Old Man Ned, Prof Scratchy and Pan all had it.
   * Here's how he played the passage from :07--:09  He was working with an underlying triplet feel, and in the third bar of his first full pass through the form the fill start with the thumb striking the open sixth string on beat one.  On the + of beat one, Scrapper pinched the open third string with his thumb and the open first string, probably with his index finger.  On beat two, he picked a triplet on the first string going from the second fret of the first string to the open first string back to the second fret of the first string, against which he hit thumb pinches at the second fret of the third string on the first and third notes of the triplet.  On beat three, he pinches the third fret of of the third string against the third fret of the first string, and finishes out the beat with a triplet in the treble, picking the open second string and returning to the third fret of the first string for the last note of the triplet.  On beat four, he plays a triplet in the treble, the first two notes of which are the open first string being hammered to the second fret of the first string and the third note being a return to the open first string.  Against the beat four triplet, the thumb picks the second fret of the third string on beat four and on the third note of the triplet picks a grace note hammer from the open third string to the first fret of the third string.  I think one of the surprising things about this fill is that he starts on the + of beat one picking the open third string rather than the first fret of the third string against the open first string; it is a surprising minor sound, just for an instant.
   * The positions he plays from 1:12 to 1:13, in the eleventh bar of the form, have a beautifully distinctive sound.  On beats two and three of that bar, he slides, I believe, into a partial F#7, X-4-X-3, doing a very controlled brush stroke with his thumb of the fourth through third strings, and muting the fourth string with his fretting hand, so that he can brush right across the fourth string without it sounding.  If you finger the fifth string with your second finger and the third string with your index finger and get a slight curvature on your second finger so that it mutes the fourth string, it works like a charm.  On beat four of that bar, he slides up into the very same position but one fret lower, X-3-X-2, an A minor, once again thumb brushing the fifth through third strings while muting the fourth string.  On the +s of beats 2, 3, and 4, he picks the open first string with his index finger.  On the downbeat of the next measure, he resolves the position down one fret further, with it becoming X-2-X-1, an E chord, thumb brushing it again followed by the open first string on the + of beat 1.  On beat two, he slightly alters the position, X-2-X-2, giving himself a B7 chord, minus the third.
These positions are very close to Pan's solution for the passage, the one difference being the interior muted fourth string in the way Scrapper played it.  The way Scrapper does the muted string with his left hand shows a degree of sophistication in his technique that is really rare in the style, and this is not the only place in the song where he utilizes that technique.
   * For the passage from 1:12--1:23, Scrapper again utilizes the left hand muting that he used for the last question.  He is rocking between an E7 with a B in the bass, 7-X-6-7-0-0 and an E dim 7 with a Bb in the bass, 6-X-5-6-0-0.  So, if you finger an E7 chord like a C7 moved up the neck, using your third finger to fret the sixth string, your second finger to fret the fourth string and your little finger to fret the third string, this move is as easy as pie in the left hand--just get enough curvature on your third finger, which is fretting the sixth string, to make a light incidental contact with the fifth string and mute it.  This move sounds so great, and I had never heard it done before the way Scrapper did it here-wow!  Prof Scratchy pretty much had this move nailed with the only difference being Scrapper's fretting of the sixth string with his third finger rather than the fifth string as Prof Scratchy had it.
   * For the passage from 2:35--2:41, Scrapper's left hand is very much as Prof Scratchy and Pan had it.  I believe Scrapper held the second fret of the fourth string down with his index finger throughout the entire passage, as a sort of fulcrum or pivot point.  He wound then do a snapped hammer to the second fret of the second string with his second finger, going immediately to the open first string and lifting the second finger simultaneously so that the second string would be open again.  He then would do a snapped bend of the first string at the third fret, with his third finger, I think.  That's the left hand.

In the right hand, he does the initial snapped hammer to the second fret of the second string on the + of beat three in the fourth bar of the form, pinching the open fifth string with his thumb at the same time.  On beat four of that measure, he picks the open first string in the treble brushing the open fifth string and second fret of the fourth string with his thumb at the same time. On the + of beat four, he picks the bent third fret of the first string, and re-hits the open fifth string with his thumb.  He sustains the bent third fret of the first string into the downbeat of the fourth bar, hitting a very forceful brush of the open fifth string and second fret of the fourth string and open third and second string with his thumb.  On the middle note of the triplet in that first beat, he does the grace note hammer to the second fret of the second string, and on the third note of the beat one triplet he picks the open first string, followed immediately on beat two by another powerful thumb brush of the fifth through second strings, fretting only the second fret of the fourth string.  He keeps this going through the third beat of the fourth bar, and whew, is it great!  I think this is my favorite passage in the song, and there are so many great ones.  One you get this going well, it's like having your spine in perfect alignment, it feels so good.  And as Prof Scratchy said on one of his answers, it may be harder to describe than it is to do (though both the timing and the right hand articulation are tricky and unusual).
I don't believe any rediscovered blues musician of the '60s and '70s ever played better than Scrapper Blackwell played on this recording.  It is perfectly amazing playing, especially since if what Scrapper told Art Rosenbaum was true, he had barely played for the 25 years prior to the session.  We're very fortunate that he made this recording and the recording on which he backed the singer Brooks Berry before he was murdered.  Kudos to Scrapper for having such an original sound and for being such a convincing proponent of his musical approach.  Incidentally, both Pete Franklin and Shirley Griffith also did really fine playing in Scrapper's style (or perhaps in the "Indianapolis Style").  I believe this CD is still available, originally on Prestige Bluesville, and if you don't have it, find it and get it.
Thanks to Old Man Ned, Prof Scratchy and Pan for participating in this puzzler.  Many of the answers were pretty much right on the money.  I'll try to find and post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm
   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on December 12, 2014, 04:12:57 PM
Thanks John!

Cheers

pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 13, 2014, 06:09:25 AM
Yes, John - thanks once again for this detailed explanation. I agree with everything you say about Scrapper's playing and about how lucky we are to have those later recordings. Scrapper was no slouch on the piano either. Whilst not in the same league as Leroy Carr, he certainly had paid attention to piano blues and played nicely. What a tragedy that he was killed so soon after rediscovery, and at a time when he'd have stood to have a busy career during the revival.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 13, 2014, 01:15:16 PM
Just like to follow-up the thanks above from Pan and Prof Scratchy for such a detailed explanation.  But a question...how do you get to hear these tunes in such detail?  I'm usually in the right ball park with playing position, tuning and roughly in the vicinity of where the fingers are on the strings (usually!), but how do you get to hear fine detail and subtleties. Is it just perseverance and dogged determination and when it's right, you know it's right?  if you know what I mean.

ps  Scrapper Blackwell played piano? I never knew that.  Are there recordings?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Bunker Hill on December 13, 2014, 10:55:16 PM
ps  Scrapper Blackwell played piano? I never knew that.  Are there recordings?
He did play piano an example of which was recorded by Duncan P. Schiedt of his performing How Long Blues.

http://www.wirz.de/music/blackfrm.htm (http://www.wirz.de/music/blackfrm.htm)

In Stefan's discography scroll down to item 18 (1960)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 14, 2014, 07:26:18 AM
Hi Old Man Ned,
With regard to your query, hearing detail in listening to these recordings is a matter of dogged determination in a way, and trying to make that a habit.  When I first started trying to figure out this music, decades ago, I was very impatient and as a result missed a lot of detail, especially what was happening in the bass.  The treble was just a lot easier to hear.  When I went back in recent years and listened to John Hurt and Bo Carter and really listened to what they were playing, especially in the bass, I was struck by how much I had missed on the first go-round. A couple of things I have found helpful in listening:
   * If you can develop the ability to listen to individual parts of what is happening rather than the whole thing at once, it is really helpful.  As an example, listening to Blind Blake and just saying, "What is hitting with his thumb?", figuring that out and then figuring out the treble.  Or on some of these passages of Scrapper's where he is muting an interior string, trying to hear what he would be playing if he fingered a conventional shape without muting, and figuring out where the void is, what part of the chord is missing.
   * I try (and sometimes forget) not to take anything for granted when listening.  Even when someone is playing what at first sounds like a commonly played sort of lick, so often they'll have their own very slightly different way of doing it.  If you stay focused and don't assume they're just doing the "normal" way, you may be able to figure out what it is that is different about how the person is playing the lick. 

A lot of the close listening depends on just taking the time to do it carefully and maintaining focus while doing it.  It is a nice head space to be in, while you're engaged with it.  I hope this helps.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 14, 2014, 09:01:01 AM
Thanks John, that helps a lot.  Much appreciated.  All the best.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 15, 2014, 09:42:30 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  The song is "Blues Knocking At My Door", as played by Carolina Slim (Ed Harris).  He was an East Coast player who died very young in the early-mid 1950s.  Here is the song:

Carolina Slim Blues Knocking At My Door (1951) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3dJZHuFiQI#)

Early this mornin', baby, blues was knockin' at my door
Early this mornin', baby, blues was knockin' at my door
Well I had so much of trouble, I didn't know where to go

Well, if I could only read, read my little baby's mind
Lord, if I could only read, read my little baby's mind
Well, I wouldn't be worried and bothered all the time

SOLO

Baby, you know you don't love me, please stop jivin' me
You know you don't love me, why don't you stop jivin' me
Well, you know it's better to be without you and to live on in misery

Blues, go away and don't ever return no more
Blues, go away, don't ever return no more
You bring me the worst old feeling I ever had in my life before


The questions are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Carolina Slim use to play "Blues Knocking At My Door"?
   * Where does he fret that passage that he plays from :20--:24?
   * Where does he fret the descending fill from 1:06--1:08?
   * Where is fretting the opening portion of his solo, from 1:22--1:30?
   * Where does he fret the two chords that sound from 2:13--2:15?

Please use only your ears and your instrument to come up with your answers, and please don't post any answers until Wednesday morning, December 17.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jtbrown on December 17, 2014, 01:00:50 PM
OK, here goes -- this is actually my second attempt to post this, as I tried to edit to correct a mistake and accidentally deleted the whole post:

1) I think he's playing out of E position, in standard tuning but with the guitar tuned one and a half steps low, so that the actual key is C#.

2) I think he's fretting this at the fifth fret, x05657 (so a IV9 chord, I guess?).  First he brushes up on the top strings, alternating between the first and second string as the highest note, then he plays a little four-note run in the bass that goes fifth string seventh fret, fifth string fifth fret, fifth string seventh fret, fourth string fifth fret.

3) I think he starts with an open note on the highest string just before the beat, then slides into the second string, eighth fret to begin a one-bar run in triplets that goes something like this: second string eighth fret, second string fifth fret, third string seventh fret, third string fourth fret, third string third fret, third string second fret, fourth string fifth fret, fourth string second fret, quick slide from fifth string sixth to seventh fret, back to fourth string second fret.  Those last three are all the same note (the tonic), and the final note of this run is accompanied by the open sixth string as a bass note.  (I'm pretty unsure about this whole run; I suspect I may be playing it in the wrong place, and possibly making other mistakes as well.)

4)  I think he starts up around the twelfth fret by sliding into a I or I7 chord of some sort and playing triplets for about three beats.  Maybe he's playing the seventh on the first string at the tenth fret, the fifth on the second string at the twelfth fret, and the third on the third string at the thirteenth fret?  Anyway, he plays triplets on that for about three beats, then does something that I can't hear/remember well enough to make it out; it's kind of dissonant in places, and he goes down a bit, then back up, then back down, then down further.  (How's that for a vague description?)  In this part, the second string seems to be the most prominent, and I seem to hear him playing it at the twelfth fret, then moving down to the tenth, then back to the twelfth, then back to the tenth, then the eighth, and finally the fifth fret. 

5) Fifth string, seventh fret as a bass note, then xxx787, then xx7565?

Thanks for giving us these puzzlers and your detailed analysis of them, John.  Although this is my first time posting to this thread, I've tried to work out some of the previous ones on my own, with mixed success.  I won't be at all surprised if it turns out that I've gotten everything wrong on this one, starting with the tuning, but even so it was fun to try to figure it out.  I also appreciate your highlighting this great song, which I was previously unfamiliar with.

Todd Brown
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 17, 2014, 01:32:27 PM
This ones been messing with my head.  I'm going for D in dropped D tuning as I'm hearing a low note at about 3 secs that's pushing me towards this. I think he's tuned about a half step low.  Also thought it may be A in dropped D but discarded that.

Where does he fret that passage that he plays from :20--:24?
--5--
--3--
--2-- on the top 3 strings
 then open 4th, 5th str/3rd fret, open 4th, 4th str/3rd fret with a slight bend

Where does he fret the descending fill from 1:06--1:08?
--2--
-----3---1
------------2--1-----0
------------------3-----3-----0
---------------------------3
--------------------------------
or thereabouts..

Where is fretting the opening portion of his solo, from 1:22--1:30?
Moving between 1st str/5th fret and 2nd str/6th fret to a D chord at 2nd & 3rd frets, then I think he's keeping the D on the 2nd str and hitting the open E but that's as much as I've got.

Drew a blank on the 2 chords, ran out of time to spend on them.

Look forward to the solution.  All the best.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jtbrown on December 17, 2014, 02:35:50 PM
Oh, that makes so much more sense!  One thing that seemed off to me in my version was that at the end of the run in 3), I thought I heard the penultimate note of the run still ringing when the final note was sounded.  That isn't possible with the tuning I used, but it works beautifully in dropped D (or dropped C#), since that final note is played on the open fourth string rather than at the second fret.  I should have tried harder to resolve this discrepancy, rather than convincing myself I was mishearing the recording.

So I did in fact get everything wrong, starting with the tuning.  No surprise there, but I'm curious to see how much (if any) of what I guessed for the top five strings is "correct," apart from being tuned a step low and playing two frets too high to compensate. 

Todd
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on December 17, 2014, 09:15:25 PM
   * What playing position/tuning did Carolina Slim use to play "Blues Knocking At My Door"?

drop D, tuned down some

   * Where does he fret that passage that he plays from :20--:24?

As Old Man Ned said but I think the chord is 5-X-X-4-3-5


   * Where does he fret the descending fill from 1:06--1:08?

Borrowing some of Ned's tab, I think closer to

----1-0
--3-----3-1
------------2-1-0
------------------3--0--
-------------------------3>5--
--------------------------------

he almost always slides up to catch that unison D note on the 5th string 5th fret.


* Where is fretting the opening portion of his solo, from 1:22--1:30?
 8th fret, 1st string and 10th fret, 2nd string

* Where does he fret the two chords that sound from 2:13--2:15?
I can?t quite tell if it?s a 7th or a diminished 7th shape, but I think it?s either
x-x-4-5-4-5 or x-x-4-5-3-5 and then the whole thing slid down two frets. I?d lean toward the x-x-4-5-3-5 if I had to pick one.

Interesting hearing someone really copying Lightning Hopkins but not sounding much like him vocally. Nice performance.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 18, 2014, 01:05:53 AM
Another klaxon of failure for  me on this one! Seduced by the Lightnin' Hopkins sound,  I had E standard.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jtbrown on December 18, 2014, 07:14:32 AM
Prof Scratchy, I'm glad I wasn't the only one -- the strong resemblance of several licks to Lightnin' Hopkins's playing in E is exactly what made me jump to the conclusion that this song must be in a variation on standard tuning. I might have done better if I had listened more closely to the whole thing, with a guitar in hand, before focusing on the specific passages John asked about; as roig mentions the voicing of the V7 chord makes it very obvious that he's playing an A7-type chord, not a typical B7 shape. (At least, now that I know what to listen for!)

Todd
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 18, 2014, 07:23:09 AM
Mmmnnn... They're not called puzzlers for nothing...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on December 18, 2014, 09:37:20 AM
I'm hopeless at this usually, but I did figure dropped D (down a bit) from the 1st low note. Very similar to early Lightnin though, he seems to have been very popular with Piedmont players of the period as there are quite a few recordings in his style from there.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 18, 2014, 03:01:43 PM
Hi all,
It has been great to see more folks participating in the Carolina Slim puzzler, and especially good to see folks discussing the tune and everything pertaining to it.  Carolina Slim was pretty darn good, wasn't he?  It's neat to hear someone who I'm sure would have admitted to being strongly influenced by Lightnin' Hopkins nonetheless express himself so strongly and convincingly in that style--and no matter how much someone's guitar playing is influenced by Lightnin', Lightnin's vocals are pretty much inimitable, just because Lightnin's voice was one-of-a-kind.
Here are the answers to the questions on "Blues Knocking At My Door":
   * Carolina Slim did play the song out of Dropped-D tuning (tuned a bit low) working out of D position there, as Old Man Ned and Chris and Roi and Phil had it.
   * For the passage at :20--:24, where Slim comes to his first IV chord, what I hear sounding is very close to Chris's suggested position of 5-X-X-4-3-5.  I hear the same chord, but minus the 4th fret of the third string, 5-X-X-X-3-5.  The sound with the 4th fret of the third string in there comes right out of Lonnie Johnson, and was also used a lot by Bo Carter when he played Johnson-influenced tunes in dropped-D.  I think Carolina Slim is getting a dronier, more open sound by leaving that sweet 4th fret of the third string, (the third of the G chord) out of there, so he's just hitting the low G note root at the fifth fret of the sixth string, the V note of the chord, D, at the third fret of the second string, and an add 9, A, at the fifth fret of the first string.
   * The descending run Carolina Slim played from 1:06--1:08 sits as follows:  He hits a pick-up note on the + of beat one at the third fret of the second string.  On beat two, he plays a triplet going from first fret of the first string to third fret of the second string to first fret of the second string.  On beat three he plays a triplet descending chromatically on the third string from the second fret to the first fret to the open string.  On beat four he plays a triplet going from the third fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string and then sliding up into the fifth fret of the fifth string, as Chris had it.  On the downbeat of the next bar he resolves the run with a thumb brush of the open sixth and fifth strings.  Todd had this run pretty much spot on for the position he initially suggested for the song.
   * For the opening of his solo, from 1:22--1:30, Carolina Slim is moving around a little two-string double stop on the first two strings.  He starts the passage fretting the 10th fret of the second string and the 8th fret of the first string, voicing the bVII of his D chord on the first string and the V of his D chord on the second string.  He moves the position down three frets, to 7-5 on the first two strings (V on the first string and III on the second string), back up three frets and back down three frets.  Thus far, he is working territory very heavily mined by Buddy Moss.  Slim then moves the position down two frets, to 5-3 on the second and first strings respectively, (sus 4 on the first string and 9 on the second string), worries the position a bit coming on and off the fifth fret of the first string down to the third fret and back, and then resolves the position down two frets more, to 3-1 on the second and first strings (Root on the second string and bIII on the first string).  It's really kind of remarkable how much of a bang he gets out of that position in the first four bars of that solo, and I can't think of another recording I've heard where a player gets so much out of that position.  And the really cool thing is that it is not difficult to execute--you're just moving that position intact, up and down the neck and very occasionally fretting the first string as well at the same fret you're fretting the second string.  Brilliant!
   * For the passage from 2:13--2:15, Carolina Slim is hitting a position and then moving it intact down to frets.  What I'm hearing in the treble on the top four strings is  4-5-X-5 resolving to 2-3-X-3.  I think one of the reasons it is tough to discern whether he's playing a diminished seventh chord on those top four strings or just the top four notes of a seventh chord is that he is not sounding anything on his second string which is where the distinction between the diminished seventh, 4-5-4-5 and the dominant seventh, 4-5-3-5, would be made.  There is a natural way to fret these two positions, leaving the second string open that would utilize a commonly-played shape.  If you imagine a B7 chord fingered
X-2-1-2-0-2, and then just take the fretted portion of that shape on the fourth, third and first strings up three frets, you end up with 4-5-X-5, and then down two frets, 2-3-X-3.  In terms of the hearing of the move, even without the second string in there, I agree with Chris that it sounds like a D7 going to a C7.
Thanks to all of you who posted answers to the puzzler and took part in the discussion.  The discussion makes the whole thing richer for everyone, I think.  I will try to find another puzzler to post soon.
All best,
Johnm
     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jtbrown on December 19, 2014, 08:21:59 AM
Thanks, again, John.  As usual, your analysis is both instructive and fascinating; having a clearer idea of what these musicians are doing never fails to deepen my appreciation of the music. 

Todd
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 23, 2014, 06:55:11 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for the good words, Todd,  and thanks to all who have participated in this thread thus far.  I'll put up a new puzzler some time between Christmas and the New Year.  Seasons greetings to all and best wishes for a Happy New Year in 2015!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 26, 2014, 12:07:01 PM
Hi all,
I hope you've been having fun celebrating the Holidays.  I have a new puzzler for you--the song is "Alabama March" by JB Lenoir, and I'd like to thank Prof. Scratchy for introducing me to the song.  It's a striking song and performance by JB Lenoir, so earnest and heartfelt.  Here it is:

JB Lenoir - Alabama March (7 of 12) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoMMVgh3LNU#)

Third month, twenty-fifth day of '65, we marched on Alabama hill
Third month, twenty-fifth day, we marched on Alabama hill
Governor Wallace wouldn't come out, 'cause my God have give him a chill

We marched in the lion's den, God had locked their jaw
We marched in the lion's den, God had locked thei' jaw
God told the people to "March on, 'cause the lion's jaw will not bite you no more."

He even killed the people that kneeled down in prayer, calling on Your name
He even killed the people that kneeled down in prayer, calling on your name
God, you said we call on your name, you will lift us up 'bout the evil man's hand

SOLO

The questions for "Alabama March" are"
   * What playing position/tuning did JB Lenoir use to play the song?
   * What are the two chords that he rocks to and from throughout the rendition, but for the first time at :02--:03, and where are they fingered?
   * Where is the run from :21--:23 fingered?
   * Where is the run from :29--:31 fingered?
   * Where are the two-chord rocking motions JB Lenoir plays over his IV and V chords fingered?

As always, please use only your ears, experience and instrument to figure out your answers.  I expect a lot of folks are still pretty busy, so please don't post your answers until Monday morning, December 29.  Thanks for your participation.

Edited to pick up corrections from Prof Scratchy, 1/29/15

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 29, 2014, 11:42:42 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the puzzler on JB Lenoir's "Alabama March"?  Come one, come all, answer however many of the questions as you wish!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 29, 2014, 02:59:35 PM
Ok -well, if there are no takers, I'll have a shot. Dropped D tuning. At the beginning he rocks between a first position D chord and x20030. The run at 21 to 23 sounds something like (str/fret) 6/0; 5/3; 4/3;3/1; 3/0; 4/3; 4/0; 5/3; 4/0.
From 29 to 31 the run is something like: 5/4>5/5 hammer on; 4/3; 4/5; 4/3; 5/5; 5/3; 6/5.
For the rocking chord on the IV, I think he hits a G note on the fifth fret of the sixth string then goes to a C6 chord, covering strings one to four at the fifth fret, then plays a second position G chord over strings 1 to 4. Moving to the V chord he does the same move, though getting the root A note on the open fifth before getting the D6 chord at xx7777, then resolving briefly to the second position A chord at x07655.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on December 29, 2014, 03:02:16 PM
Well perhaps I'll start, while everyone else are apparently still digesting their turkeys or whatever.  :)

Quote
The questions for "Alabama March" are"
   * What playing position/tuning did J. B. Lenoir use to play the song?

Well, I?ve been terribly wrong with dropped D before, but I?m going to suggest it again.  :)

Quote
   * What are the two chords that he rocks to and from throughout the rendition, but for the first time at :02--:03, and where are they fingered?

Sounds to me like there?s an octave D played on the 6th and 4th strings, followed by the open position D chord:  0-X-0-2-3-2; then I?m hearing the top 4 strings open, with maybe a B on bass:  X-2-0-0-0-0, which could be seen as an Em7 chord, I guess.

Quote
   * Where is the run from :21--:23 fingered?

Sounds like an arpeggiated F minor chord 3-3-3-1-X-X; followed by the open 3rd string; and then the 3rd fret 4th string; pulled off for the open 4th string; and followed by the 3rd fret 5th string.

Quote
   * Where is the run from :29--:31 fingered?

I think he?s playing the 3rd fret 5th string, the hammering on the 5th fret; then following with the 3rd fret 4th string; then a downward run from the 5th to the 3rd fret on 4th string; then same frets on the 5th string; and ending up on the 5th fret on the 6th string.

Quote
   * Where are the two-chord rocking motions J. B. Lenoir plays over his IV and V chords fingered?

If I?m understanding the question correctly, I think he plays X-X-5-5-5-X to X-X-5-4-3-X for the IV chord; and for the V chord a little more elaborately, starting with the 7th fret 4th string and a slid in 5th fret 2nd string, then X-X-7-7-7-X, then a double stop on strings 3 and 2, with a barred 5th fret, followed by a quick hammer on on the 6th fret of the 3rd string, while the 2nd string is still ringing.

J.B. Lenoir is such an interesting guitar player and musician, thanks for posting John, and looking forward to see if I was anywhere near the ballpark again. Hopefully others will chime in as well.

Cheers

Pan

Edited to add: Professor Scratchy posted while I was typing!

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 30, 2014, 02:16:41 AM
Prof Scratchy should have waited five minutes and and stolen your ideas, Pan!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on December 30, 2014, 09:48:47 AM
Without a guitar at hand, I would also agree with dropped D, but boy what an interesting sound JB Lenoir gets out of it.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 30, 2014, 12:18:44 PM
Just got to this after travelling over Christmas.  In agreement with everyone on dropped D and I think Pan has covered the other questions though I've not got around to listening to the last one as much needed rest beckons.  All the best for the New Year.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 31, 2014, 10:05:10 AM
Hi all,
Thanks to all who responded on JB Lenoir's "Alabama March" puzzler.  Here are the answers:
   * JB did play the song out of dropped-D tuning, as you all had it, tuned about one half-step low.  Good hearing!
   * The two chord rocking motion he plays over the I chord throughout goes from a conventionally fingered D chord at the base of the neck to X-2-0-0-0-0, which is just as Pan had it.  Prof Scratchy's
X-2-0-0-3-0 is actually the same chord, but with a slightly different color, with the fretted note on the second string rather than an open second string.  The chord could be analyzed as an Em7 as Pan had it, or as a G6, voiced X-3-5-R-3-6.  I'm sort of hearing it as a IV chord of D, but a IIm7 captures the sound, too.
   * The run that JB plays from :21-:23 is: third fret sixth string to third fret fifth string to third fret fourth string to first fret third string to open third string to grace note pull-off from third fret fourth string to open fourth string to third fret fifth string to open sixth string.  This is also as Pan had it, and differs from Prof Scratchy's solution only in its first and last notes.  The first four notes of the run are an F minor arpeggio as Pan noted, but if you analyze the run in the context of the D scale you get a sense of why it has such a gnarly, arresting sound.  It is: b3-b7-b3-b5-4-b3-R-b7-R.  You can see that the run really emphasizes all of the altered, colored tones of a blues scale.  To get a richer context for it, it would probably be helpful to figure out where the same run would sit in a couple of different keys, like E and A in standard tuning.
   * JB's run over his IV chord, from :29-31 sits as follows: grace note hammer from third to fifth fret on the fifth string to third fret of the fourth string to fifth fret of the fourth string to third fret of the fourth string to fifth fret of the fifth string to third fret of the fifth string to the fifth fret of the sixth string.  The run fits the left hand beautifully, if you just assign the third fret notes to the index finger and the fifth fret notes to the third finger.  Pan and Prof Scratchy were both pretty much right on this one with Prof Scratchy just differing on the very first note.  As with JB's run over the I chord, this run really grabs your ear.  One thing interesting about it is that it consists entirely of the notes in common between a D pentatonic blues scale and a G pentatonic blues scale, omitting only the note in each of those scales that differs from the other scale's note (A in the D scale and Bb in the G scale).  If you analyze the run relative to D, it is b7-R-b3-4-b3-R-b7-4, and if you analyze the run relative to G it is
4-5-b7-R-b7-5-4-R.
   * For his two chord rocking motions over his IV and V chords, JB plays X-X-5-5-5-X to X-X-5-4-3-X over his IV chord and X-X-7-7-7-X  to X-X-7-6-5-X over his V chord.  In the V chord rock, when he resolves to X-X-7-6-5-X, he does a neat fingering in the left hand, using his third finger to fret the seventh fret of the fourth string, his index to barre the top three strings at the fifth fret, and then hammering with his second finger to the sixth fret of the third string.  Both of these rocks have a IV-I sound, (relative to the IV and V chords), so that the rock over the IV chord goes from C to G and the rock over the V chord goes from D to A.  When you think about it, JB sets up contrasting rocking motions over his I, IV and V chords:  Over the I chord, he rocks I to IV, but over the IV and V chords, he rocks IV to I.
This is such a striking piece in every way, I think--compositionally, lyrically, vocally, in the unusual texture of the guitar part, and a number of you remarked upon that.  JB seems like he must have been a really creative man, with big, open ears.  One of the things that makes the piece work so well, I think, is how beautifully JB utilized repetition, and was unafraid to return to the same ideas.  It ends up building an altogether distinctive feel for the song.
Thanks for your participation and I'll try to find another puzzler to post soon.  And Happy New Year, everyone, and best wishes for 2015!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 31, 2014, 10:24:56 AM
Now - if only I'd found this before i went and got the answers wrong again!
http://youtu.be/bgRpmE266P0 (http://youtu.be/bgRpmE266P0)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 31, 2014, 11:17:11 AM
Thanks for posting that, Prof.  It's neat and really instructive to see how JB negotiated playing the tune, and the subtle differences between the recording and the live performance.  I noticed that in his V chord, he ended up at 6-5 on the third and second strings by sliding his second finger and index fingers up those two strings from one fret below, rather than by barring with the index at the fifth fret and hammering to the second finger to the sixth fret as I described it above.  JB's way is both easier than how I described it and has the additional advantage of inflecting both of those strings rather than just the third string, as I was hearing it.  Talk about a picture being worth a thousand words!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 01, 2015, 06:45:00 PM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you--the song is "Hungry Spell", as performed by Ranie Burnette.  Here it is:

Rural Blues 2 -- track 5 of 12 -- Ranie Burnette -- Hungry Spell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awlHKDTrLZE#)

Well, the blues ain't nothin', hungry spell
Well, the blues ain't nothin', baby, but a hungry spell

Well, I got somethin' to tell you, woman, don't run and tell your man
Well, I got somethin' to tell you, little woman, don't run and tell your man

Well, I wonder what my woman, she will answer if I call
Well, I wonder what my little woman answers if I call

Well, come on, little woman, baby, sit down on my knee
Well, come on, little woman, sit down on my knee

I say, yeah, little woman, you sure lookin' good to me
Oh yeah, little woman, sure lookin' good to me

The questions re "Hungry Spell" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Ranie Burnette use to play the song?
   * How did he fret and play his primary signature lick in the version that he plays from about :43--:50?  (He played the lick a number of slightly different ways over the course of the rendition.)
   
It's been a while since we've had a trancey number and I hope you enjoy this one.  Please use only your ears, experience and instrument to answer the questions, and please don't post any answers before Saturday morning, January 3.  Thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 03, 2015, 11:57:01 AM
Another bluesman I've never heard before.  I love this thread. In answer to the questions..here goes:

What playing position/tuning did Ranie Burnette use to play the song?
Vestapol (Open D tuning).  I'd first looked at Dropped D, playing out of D but the signature lick is easy to handle in Vestapol

How did he fret and play his primary signature lick in the version that he plays from about :43--:50?
It's sort of like this (?)
4th string 3rd fret bend to open string. he then may catch the open 1st string before hammering on the open 2nd string at 2nd fret and catching the open 1st string again.  He sort of repeats this, but throughout there's the steady beat on the 6th string making an almost drone effect which is in sync with his foot beat. Probably not explained this too well but I'll go back to it again as I love this tune.  Thanks.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on January 04, 2015, 09:32:10 AM
I'm with Old Man Ned on this one, I think he pretty much nailed it.

For the riff I'll just add a few minor details; I'm hearing the 4th string 2nd fret quickly hannered on to the 3rd fret, rather than a bend; then the open 4th string is played twice; then the open 1st string; then a hammer on from the open 2nd string to the 2nd fret; and finally the open 6th string. All this played in eighth notes, although without counting the starting grace notes for the two hammer ons.

Looking forwrd to hear the verdict.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 04, 2015, 09:34:32 AM
Haven't had time to sit down with this one, but just to mix it up I'm going to say crossnote for the tuning!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 04, 2015, 01:28:57 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Ranie Burnette puzzler on "Hungry Spell"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 05, 2015, 09:38:51 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who is likely to respond on the "Hungry Spell" puzzler has posted, so I'll post the answers.  Here they are:
   * The playing position/tuning that Ranie Burnette used for "Hungry Spell" was the EAEGBE tuning that Roi suggested, tuned a minor third low, so that the strings ended up being tuned C#-F#-C#-E-G#-C#.  Having gone to that tuning he then played out of an E position.  Very well done, making this identification, Roi!
Here is a bit of the thought process involved in making this identification.  Burnette is playing in the key of his sixth string, and it is obvious from listening that his first string is tuned to the same pitch, two octaves higher.  This suggests the following playing position/tuning possibilities:  E position standard tuning, Vestapol tuning, cross-note tuning, and EAEGBE tuning.  Vestapol and cross-note tuning are both eliminated as possibilities because Ranie Burnette through-out the course of the song hits a IV note on his open fifth string, hammering to the V note on the same string.  Since both Vestapol and cross-note put their V note on the fifth string, they would not work for what Ranie Burnette is playing on the song.  That leaves E position standard tuning and EAEGBE tuning in the running.  EAEGBE tuning wins out by virtue of Ranie Burnette never hitting a note on his fourth string lower in pitch than a I note; in fact, all he ever plays on his fourth string is the little grace note hammer from the second to the third fret resolving to the I note on the open fourth string that Pan described.  These factors taken in combination point towards EAEGBE tuning being the solution.
If you've never played in EAEGBE tuning and are having a hard time wrapping your mind around it, here are two ways of thinking of it, which may help.
   1) You can think of it as E position in standard tuning, but with the fourth string raised a whole step so that the octave bass above the sixth string is an open string, rather than fretted at the second fret of the fourth string; or,
   2) You can think of it as cross-note tuning, but with the fifth string lowered a whole step so that you have a usable IV note root on the open fifth string.  Not having a usable low root for the IV chord is probably the most limiting aspect of cross-note tuning, and EAEGBE tuning solves that problem. 

EAEGBE tuning is a terrific tuning with a lot of unplumbed possibilities and it was used most notably by Furry Lewis, Clifford Gibson, Henry Spaulding ("Cairo Blues"), Lane Hardin and a couple of other players.  If you've never played a song in it, I encourage you to put your guitar in the tuning and give it a shot.  In fact, if you put your guitar in tune with Ranie Burnette's, I venture to guess that you'll have his entire guitar part figured out in less than half an hour.

   * Ranie Burnette plays his signature lick, starting at :43 as follows:  On beat one he strikes the open sixth string.  On beat two, he hits a grace note hammer from the second fret to the third fret of the fourth string.  On the + of beat two, he picks the open fourth string.  On beat three, he re-strikes the open sixth string.  On the + of beat three he picks the open first string.  On beat four, he does a grace note hammer from the open second string to the second fret of the second string.  On the + of beat four, he re-picks the open first string.  In other iterations of the lick, he does an additional grace note hammer from the second fret of the fourth string to the third fret of the fourth string on the + of beat one.

Thanks to all who participated.  It's such a cool piece, and the tuning really just sort of "gives" you the piece, it lays out so beautifully and easily there.  I will look for another puzzler to post soon.  Please let me know if anything was unclear or you'd like more in the way of an explanation.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on January 05, 2015, 10:08:10 AM
Doh! I thought he played the hammer on on the V note on the 6th string higher up on the neck.

Congratulations to Roi for solving this one!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 05, 2015, 01:23:07 PM
Yep, congrats to Riog. Just when I thought I was getting the hang of figuring these out, scuppered by the EAEGBE tuning :-)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 07, 2015, 07:16:06 AM
Hi all,
It has been brought to my attention that there is film footage of Ranie Burnette at about the 19:00 mark of this film made in 1989 by Dutch Country Blues enthusiasts, up on vimeo.  I've watched the footage and the link worked for me.  Here is the link:  Rural Blues on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/109335731)  .  Thanks for the tip, Harriet!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 07, 2015, 03:36:31 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  The song is "Let Me Be Your Side Track", take 2, featuring Jimmie Rodgers singing accompanied by Clifford Gibson on guitar.  Here is their performance:

Jimmie Rodgers with Clifford Gibson - Let Me Be Your Side Track (Take 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DozValFtp_g#)

I saw two little monkeys playin' up and down a tree
Yes, I saw two little monkeys playin' up and down in a tree
One said to the other, "Come on, let's make whoopee."

Listen, mama, I know when you're hanging 'round
Yes, I know, pretty mama, when you are hanging around
'Cause I don't see no fire, but I am burning down
(Yodel)

There's something 'bout you women, always making me sore
There's something 'bout you women, keep on making me sore
No matter how much you get, you keep coming back for more

SOLO

Let me be your sidetrack 'til your mainline come
Let me be your sidetrack 'til your mainline come
'Cause I can do more switchin' than your mainline's ever done
(Yodel)

When you see a spider climbin' up a lonesome wall
When you see that spider, climbing up a wall
You can tell the world, he's going to get his ashes hauled
(Yodel)

The questions on "Let Me Be Your Side Track" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Clifford Gibson use to play the song?
   * Where did Clifford Gibson fret the fill that he plays from :22--:24?
   * Where did Clifford Gibson fret the fill that he plays from 1:06--1:08?
   * Where did Clifford Gibson fret what he plays over the V chord in his solo, from 1:42--1:43?
Please use only your ears and your instrument to come up with your answers, and please don't post any answers prior to Friday morning, January 9.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 10, 2015, 05:18:28 AM
Here's my attempt to answer the questions (str/fret)

*Spanish tuning

*1/0 -2-5-2 -0-2-0 ; 3/3bend x 2-0; 4/2; 3/0 x2

*double stop 2/8 +3/9 x3, down two frets x3> down three fets x3> 3/3 bend; 2/0 ; 3/0

*D7 chord fingered  2/1; 3/2 with alternating  bass 6/0>4/0 plus first str open then first str 2nd fret
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 10, 2015, 11:36:29 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the "Let Me Be Your Sidetrack" puzzler?
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 11, 2015, 09:55:11 AM
Open G, (a wee bit sharp?).
Then pretty much as Prof Scratchy has it apart from the fill that he plays from :22--:24
I'm hearing first string 0-5-3-2-0-2-0; 3str 3 bend; 2str open; 3rdstr open; 4th str 2; 3rd str open; brush 4th & 3str open. Though not quite sure about the last few notes, they're pretty fast and flurried.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 12, 2015, 10:41:49 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intends to respond to the "Let Me Be Your Side Track" puzzler has responded, so here are the answers:
   * Clifford Gibson did use Spanish tuning to accompany Jimmie Rodgers on the tune, just as everyone responded.  Well done!
   * For Clifford Gibson's fill from :22-:24, I have him fingering it as follows, and I may start the phrase a hair before :22, now that I re-checked it.  He is playing a swung eighth note, underlying triplet feel.  On 1 +, he goes from the third fret of the second string to the fifth fret of the second string.  On beat two, he plays a triplet, going from the fifth fret of the first string to the fifth fret of the second string to the open first string.  On beat 3, he plays another triplet, going from the open first string to the second fret of the first string back to the open first string. On beat 4 + he goes from the third fret of the third string to the open second string, On beat 5, he plays another triplet going from the open third string to to the second fret of the fourth string and the open fourth string, and on beat 6 he hits the fifth fret of the first string.  The reason the phrase is six beats long is that Jimmie Rodgers doesn't allow two full measures of four beats each after his vocal phrases, so with Jimmie consistently short, Clifford has to adapt and play one six-beat measure after each of the vocal phrases rather than two four-beat measures.  The way Clifford Gibson achieves this adaption of his more customary timing and phrasing is really masterfully done.  I should say that the solution here is pretty much exactly the same notes that Prof. Scratchy had, with the only difference being the use of some second string third fret notes in lieu of the open first string.  Since the two notes are unisons, it is very difficult to say which Clifford Gibson chose to play, in many instances.
   * For the phrase from 1:06-1:08, I have it figured as follows.  On beat one, a triplet fretting the first two strings at the fifth fret, on beat two, a triplet fretting the first two strings at the third fret, on beat three, a triplet sliding into the fourth fret of the third string and the third fret of the second string, on beat four a triplet  going from the open third string to the second fret of the fourth string and back to the open third string.  In many ways, Prof. Scratchy's solution makes more sense in terms of the left hand, for he puts all of the triplets on the first three beats on the second and third strings, moving a single position down the neck intact.  Once again, since the notes are the same, it's tough to say exactly how Clifford Gibson fingered the passage.
   * For the passage over the V chord, from 1:42-1:43, Clifford Gibson played the following:  On 1 +, he goes from the second fret of the third string to the first fret of the second string.  On 2, he pinches the fourth fret of the fourth string and the open first string and on the + of 2 he picks the second fret of the third string.  On beat three, he hits the fourth fret of the fourth string with his thumb, and on 4 + he goes from the open first string to the second fret of the first string.  A V7 chord in Spanish always sounds so pretty when you get the fourth fret fret of the fourth string in there, as Clifford Gibson did  here and as Buddy Boy Hawkins did on many of his recordings.
I feel like everyone was really hearing this song well.  It's unusual, in a way, because it is the only Clifford Gibson accompaniment in Spanish that I can think of, including both his own songs and those where he backed Ed Bell as Sluefoot Joe, where he was not capoed way up.  I'm sure this was just a function of Jimmie Rodgers' vocal range, but it's interesting to hear how Clifford Gibson sounded in Spanish down at the base of the neck--pretty great, which is not exactly a surprise.
Thanks to roig, Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned for participating, and I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 12, 2015, 03:44:05 PM
Hi all,
The new puzzler is Carl Martin's "Badly Mistreated Man".  I think I first heard this song on the old Yazoo anthology, "Guitar Wizards".  Here is the song:

Badly Mistreated Man - CARL MARTIN (Piedmont Blues Guitar, 1936) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaKwrzeVI_o#)

I worked hard, baby, I worked hard every day
I worked hard, baby, I worked hard every day
I even turned over in your hand every cent of my pay

I been done so dirty, treated so low-down mean
I been done so dirty, treated so low-down mean
You've even accused me of women that I ain't never seen

People, what's the use of lovin', when I can't see why I should?
People, what's the use of lovin', when I can't see why I should?
Especially when you got a woman and she don't mean you no good

SOLO

I woke up this mornin', got on a stroll
Met my baby, got her told,
"Look-a-here, baby, you're thinkin' wrong.
Let your papa help you to sing this song.
I grabbed my coat and hat, down the road I'll start.
Before I would work I'd rather part.
I wouldn't work for no human bein',
Neither no woman that I've ever seen.
Eighteen hundred, ninety years,
All of my women sit in rockin' chairs.
But ever since nineteen and twenty-three,
All of my women been workin' for me.
I got a mind, never work no more.
I been badly mistreated, I been drove from door to door."

Here are the questions:
   * What playing position/tuning did Carl Martin use to play "Badly Mistreated Man"
   * Describe where to fret the phrase he plays twice from :03-:08
   * Where is Carl Martin fretting the phrase he uses to accompany his singing in the first verse, from :10-:19?
   * Where did Carl Martin fret the fill he concludes the first verse with, from :33-:36?

As always, please use only your ears and your guitar to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Wednesday morning, January 14, so that plenty of people have an opportunity to listen and come up with their own answers.  Thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 15, 2015, 10:46:23 AM
Hi all,
Any takers on the Carl Martin "Badly Mistreated Man" puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 16, 2015, 04:14:43 AM
This puzzler is extremely puzzling. But as there are no takers I'll put myself forward once more for the first bite of the cherry of shame. (This makes bnemerov's day, so who am I to deny him)? All right, I'm going to say E standard tuned a half step low. The phrase from 03 to 08 sounds very like the Brownie McGhee turnaround' - a D7 chord up two frets to sound E7, descending to the first fret but sounding the open E string against the Eflat7. There's something else going on here though, and I cant work out what it is! Could he be taking a B7 shape up two frets and descending similarly, sounding the open E String on the way down? Or something else completely different. For the second part of the question - what does he do under the singing - well it could be that he slides up to the E at the seventh fret of the fifth string, but then reassumes a first position E chord, bending the G note of the third fret of the first string, then first string open, then second fret second string, then bent G again on first string, then first string open. Or he could be doing something much more sensible and simple up the neck, but I can't work it out! The last part of the question defeats me, and makes me convinced I'm barking up the wrong tree (again) with the rest of my answer. I'm sure everyone else will have sussed this, but from me, for now, it's back to the studio...
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on January 16, 2015, 05:08:22 AM
Hi all

I agree with Professor Scratchy on E-position standard tuning, tuned a little low.
Here are my takes for the other questions.

   
Quote
* Describe where to fret the phrase he plays twice from :03-:08

I hear an E chord: X-X-2-4-0-4, followed by what could be seen as an F#7: X-X-(2)-3-2-0, to a B7: X-X-1-2-0-2, followed by an open position E chord: X-X-2-1-0-0.
Quote
   * Where is Carl Martin fretting the phrase he uses to accompany his singing in the first verse, from :10-:19?

That?s a tough one to hear underneath the vocals. I think Professor Scratchy might be right with the slid note, maybe from the  2nd to the 7th fret on fifth string. He could then go down to the open position, as Professor has it, but I find it easier to play the slightly bent G note on the 8th fret of the 2nd  string. This is followed by the open 1st and 2nd strings, and the all the 3 notes are repeated. While the last open 2nd string is ringing he has the chance to neatly go down to repeat the slid bass note starting the lick, if I?m not mistaken.

 
Quote
* Where did Carl Martin fret the fill he concludes the first verse with, from :33-:36?

It sounds to me like he?s sliding from the 2nd to the 4th fret on the 3rd string, and simultaneously playing the two top open strings. The open strings are left ringing while he plays the 2nd fret to open string to 1st fret all on the 3rd string. Finally the open two top strings are played again.

Looking forward to hear again, if I'm anywhere near the truth.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 17, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Think you are nearer to the truth than I was, Pan!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 17, 2015, 09:01:09 AM
Hi all,
It looks like all of the responses are in on Carl Martin's "Badly Mistreated Man", so here are the answers.  Thanks to Prof Scratchy and Pan for participating.
   * Carl Martin did play the song out of E position in standard tuning, as both of you had it.
   * For the little tag that Carl Martin plays twice from :03-:08, he did this:  On the + of beat four in the previous measure, he slid into the fourth fret of the fifth string, doing a thumb drag-through from there into the second fret of the fourth string, which lands on beat one.  On the + of beat one, he slid into the fourth fret of the third string, hitting it with the thumb of his right hand.  On beat two, he played a triplet, brushing the fourth fret of the first string and the open second string on the first and third notes of the triplet and re-hitting the fourth fret of the third string with his thumb on the middle note of the triplet.  On beat three, he lands on a partial F#7, with his thumbing striking the third fret of the third string, and his index finger brushing the second fret of the second string and the open first string.  On the + of beat three he hits the first fret fret of the fourth string, doing a drag-through with it into the second fret of the third string on beat four, against which he brushes the open second string and the second fret of the first string, also on beat four.  On the + of beat four, he brushes an E chord with his index finger on the top three strings.  The left hand of this tag is just as Pan had it.  Carl Martin's time and execution is so spot on, it's as though the phrase just glistens.
   *  For the vamp behind is singing over the I chord at :10--:19, Carl Martin did the following:  On the fourth beat of the measure preceding the vamp, he plays a triplet, striking the fifth string at the second fret on beat four, sliding to the seventh fret of the fifth string for the second note of the triplet, and hitting the open sixth string on the last note of the triplet.  He then starts the vamp with a thumb brush of 7-0-0 on the fifth fourth and third strings on beat one.  On the + of beat one he hits the bent eighth fret of the second string.  On beat two he pinches the seventh fret of the fifth string and the open first string.  On the + of beat two, he hits the open second string.  On beat three he pinches the seventh fret of the fifth string and the bent eighth fret of the second string and on the + of beat three, he hits the open first string.  On beat four he hits the same triplet in the bass that he used to precede the vamp and starts it over in the next measure.  This is much as Pan had it, as well.  I think this phrase is akin to one Bill Broonzy plays in "Hey, Hey, Baby".
   * For the fill from :33-:36, Carl Martin does a thumb-struck slide into the third string at the fourth fret.  On beat two he does a triplet index finger brush of the first two strings open.  On beat three he re-brushes the first two strings open, and on the + of beat three he hits the second fret of the third string with his thumb.  On 4 +, he goes from the open third string to the first fret of the third string, both struck with his thumb, and on beat one of the next measure he picks the open first string.  Once again,  Pan was pretty much on it.

Wasn't Carl Martin a great player?  His playing had such a finish.  Can anyone think of a song with a longer lyric break than he takes after the solo on "Badly Mistreated Man"?  It is 24 bars long--that's long!  Thanks to Prof Scratchy and Pan for participating, and I'll post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 18, 2015, 09:33:08 AM
Hi all,
For anyone who was baffled yesterday by my answer to the second query in the Carl Martin puzzler, I caught my error when re-reading it last night and made a fix.  The description should now match the sound of what Carl Martin played better.  Sorry about that!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 19, 2015, 03:05:51 PM
Hi all,
I've got another puzzler for you.  The song is "Hoot Your Belly", by Jimmy Lee Williams, and it is the title track of his Fat Possum CD.  No home should be without it.  Jimmy Lee was a farmer in Porlan, Georgia who was discovered and recorded by George Mitchell.  Thanks, George!  Here is the track:

Hoot Your Belly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqGic2KJbeo#ws)

Hoot your belly, give your backbone ease
Hoot your belly, give your backbone ease
Hoot your belly, give your backbone ease
Daddy ain't around, you can love just who you please

Mmmmmmmmmmm, mmmmmmmmmmmm
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, well, well, well

Love that woman, just can't call her name
Love that woman, I just can't call her name
Love that woman, I just can't call her name
Married woman, but I love her just the same

Oh, ah, oh, ah
Well, uh-uh, whoa, uh, oh?

Goin', I'm goin', your cryin' won't make me stay
Goin', I'm goin', your cryin' won't make me stay
Goin', I'm goin', your cryin' won't make me stay
More you cry, now, further you're gonna drive me away

The questions on "Hoot Your Belly" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jimmy Lee Williams use to play the song?
   * Where did Jimmy Lee fret, and how did he play his signature lick, which he starts playing at about :03 into the song?
   * What chords does Jimmy Lee play in the course of the song?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Wednesday morning, January 21.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope some of you folks who have been following the thread but not posting will participate.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on January 20, 2015, 12:14:44 AM
The video is not available to me, (maybe an oversees thing). Is this the same performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUbNyBJh9sw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUbNyBJh9sw) ?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 20, 2015, 06:36:07 AM
Yes, mr mando, that is the same performance, so you could work from that one, too.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 22, 2015, 04:10:19 AM
Hi all,
I've got another puzzler for you.  The song is "Hoot Your Belly", by Jimmy Lee Williams, and it is the title track of his Fat Possum CD.  No home should be without it.  Jimmy Lee was a farmer in Porlan, Georgia who was discovered and recorded by George Mitchell.  Thanks, George!  Here is the track:

Hoot Your Belly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqGic2KJbeo#ws)

The questions on "Hoot Your Belly" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jimmy Lee Williams use to play the song?
   * Where did Jimmy Lee fret, and how did he play his signature lick, which he starts playing at about :03 into the song?
   * What chords does Jimmy Lee play in the course of the song?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Wednesday morning, January 21.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope some of you folks who have been following the thread but not posting will participate.
All best,
Johnm

No takers for this one? I'm quietly confident, but think someone else should start the ball rolling! bnemerov??
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: bnemerov on January 22, 2015, 05:26:36 AM
My dear Prof.,
I've my hands full trying to harmonize those 17th & 18th C. tunes from your wee adopted country.
Dotted strathspey rhythms are already kicking my butt....I'll leave the Georgia farmer's playing to you.
best,
bruce
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 22, 2015, 06:26:30 AM
Dinnae fash yer sporran wi' they daft tunes,  pal!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on January 22, 2015, 06:32:59 AM
and now for something completely different...

I never did figure this one out too carefully, but it always sounded like std tuning, G position, with the signature lick played on the 2nd fret of the 4th ( D ) string essentially within the G chord (fretting finger is moved from the 2nd fret 5th string to the 2nd fret 4th string to play the lick). Picking hand thumb does the heavy lifting on the 4th and 6th strings and the index plays kind of an alternating drone on the high G note - 3rd fret, 1st string.

The whole thing is harmonized with 1st position G, C and D chords, seems to me.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on January 22, 2015, 09:07:18 AM
Yes, mr mando, that is the same performance, so you could work from that one, too.
All best,
Johnm

Very cool though that it is a different cut... I had not heard this version.  Quicker tempo, not as distorted.  Thanks for posting Mr Mando!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 22, 2015, 09:34:35 AM
I'm in agreement with Frankie.  Listening to this last night, standard G was as far as I got.  I'd written off dropped G tuning as I couldn't hear the low D anywhere on the 6th string.  What was puzzling me though is that I also wasn't hearing anything on the 1st and 2nd strings when the G chord is played....apart from the wee run right at the end of the tune.  Don't know why that should puzzle me, but it did.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 22, 2015, 11:26:52 AM
Yes, agreed - G/C/D with signature lick being a double hammer on 2nd fret of 4th string followed by two brushes of the top four strings of the G chord.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on January 23, 2015, 02:15:02 AM
Q: What playing position/tuning did Jimmy Lee Williams use to play the song?
A: Agree with frankie: std. tuning / G position

Q: Where did Jimmy Lee fret, and how did he play his signature lick, which he starts playing at about :03 into the song?
A: Agree with frankie: beat 1: thumb fret 3 on 6th string, beat 2: thumb strum strings 4, 3 and 2 open, beat 3: hammer from open 4th string to 2nd fret fourth string beat 3+: 1st string 3 fret, beat 4: like beat 3, beat 4+ like beat 3+.

Q: What chords does Jimmy Lee play in the course of the song?
A: starts on a G 1st Position chord, then, at 0:20 Em before switching to C7 at 0:21. Regular 1st position D chord at 0:27 followed by an F# (2nd fret 6th string) bass note. In the following run throughs of the form, he's not playing the Em anymore.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 23, 2015, 10:31:24 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for your responses on the Jimmy Lee Williams "Hoot Your Belly" puzzler.  Here are the answers:
   * Jimmy Lee did play the song out of G position in standard tuning, just as every one of you had it.  Well done!
   * Similarly, Jimmy Lee's signature lick lies very much as Frank, Prof Scratchy and mr mando had it.  He struck the third fret of the sixth string on beat one, on beat two brushes the fourth, third and a bit of the second string, all open, on beat three hammers with his second finger to the second fret of the fourth string, followed by the third fret of the first string, picked on the + of beat three.  On beat four, he re-strikes the fourth string with his thumb, doing a grace note hammer to the second fret of the fourth string, and on the + of beat four re-picks the third fret of the first string.  The tricky aspect of the signature lick has to do, I think with the two hammers to the second fret of the fourth string; the first hammer is very lazy, with the fourth string struck open on beat two and the hammer not happening until beat three--the second hammer is instantaneous, with both the open fourth string and the hammered second fret arriving on beat four, essentially.  It gives the lick a neat feeling of speeding up as it goes, and the grace note hammer on beat four gives it a little rhythmic snap that drives it right into its next iteration.  If you enjoy signature lick tunes, as I do, I think you might particularly relish Jimmy Lee's knack for coming up with memorable signature licks--with "Hoot Your Belly" and "Have You Ever Seen Peaches?", he has two of the most infectious licks you're ever going to hear to his credit.
  * The chords are in the main, simply G, C and D at the base of the neck, but in mr mando's version of the song, which as John D. noted is not the same as the version I originally posted, Jimmy Lee does hit a momentary E minor chord, and in both versions he does hit a C7 during the course of his rendition.
One of the things I have most admired and enjoyed about Jimmy Lee Williams' music, and especially his original tunes, since I was first introduced to them by blueshome at Blues Week one summer (thanks, Phil!) is the feeling I get when listening to him that so much of what he did was just for himself and what sounded good to him.  His non-verbal vocalizations, harmonizing with his slide, etc. just seem to give his music a special quality I wish I encountered more often elsewhere.  Thanks to George Mitchell for finding and recording him and for Fat Possum for releasing his music on CD.  And if you don't have his CD, get it!
Thanks to all of you who participated, and I'll post another puzzler soon.  I felt like everyone heard this one really well, could figure it out, and may yet do so.  And it's great to have an occasion to transcribe his lyrics to "Hoot Your Belly"! 
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 25, 2015, 12:45:23 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  The song is "Hard Luck Man", as performed by Sonny Scott.  Sonny Scott is remembered, if he is remembered at all, as Walter Roland's duet partner on a number of really nice instrumental guitar duets, but I was surprised to find that he had more than a couple of titles released under his own name as well.  "Hard Luck Man", for that matter, is a duet, though it is not listed as such, and the seconding guitarist is pretty self-effacing, disappearing into his role.  I think Sonny Scott's playing on the song is unusually interesting and original, if not flashy, and wonder if it will strike any of you that way.  In the second verse, Sonny Scott pronounces hard-lucked, "hard-luck-ed".  Here is the piece:

https://youtu.be/rFG7fn9TA5M

SOLO (Spoken during solo:  Ah, Lord, have mercy on poor me!)

I can't sleep at night, baby, and the jinx does got poor me
I can't sleep at night and the, jinx does got poor me
And since my woman's been gone, then the blues won't let me be

Blues, blues, blues, don't worry my mind so long
Oh, blues, blues, blues, don't worry my mind so long
Because I'm a hard-lucked man, God, I ain't done nothin' wrong

My Mama told me, "Son, don't weep and moan."
My Mama told me, Lord, "Son, don't weep and moan.
These ugly women will be here, when you're dead and gone."

Lord, I been a dog in your family, mama, I been drove from door to door
I been a dog in your family, drove from door to door
Lordy, if my mind don't change, then I won't knock here no more

Lord, when I was a infant baby, lyin' in my Mother's arms
Ah, when I was a infant, Lord, lyin' in my Mother's arms
You know you told me, Mama, you wa'n't to going to do me no harm

I have more questions than usual about "Hard Luck Man".  Here they are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Sonny Scott use to play "Hard Luck Man"?
   * Where does he fret the fill he plays from :10--:15?
   * Where does he fret what he plays from :21--:26?
   * Where does he fret the fill he plays from :36--:43, and how does he negotiate it in the right hand?
   * How does he start his verse accompaniment from 1:05--1:06?
   * Where does he fret, and how does he play the fill from 1:40--1:49?

Please use only your ears and your guitars in figuring out your answers, and please wait until Wednesday, January 28 to post your answers so that plenty of people have a chance to listen to the track before people start posting answers.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the song and Sonny Scott's performance of it.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on January 25, 2015, 05:12:54 PM
Walter Roland is actually listed as the second (barely audible) guitarist on this.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 26, 2015, 07:18:34 AM
Thanks for that information, Frank.  It makes sense.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 28, 2015, 01:37:40 PM
Miller's Breakdown

List continues at http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98102#msg98102

1. Sweet Lucy--Andrew Dunham   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87362#msg87362)
2. My Rare Dog--Jaydee Short   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87484#msg87484)
3. Needin' My Woman Blues--Sammy Hill   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87556#msg87556)
4. Up and Down Buildin' the KC Line--Little Brother   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87671#msg87671)
5.   Seven Year Itch--Otto Virgial   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87754#msg87754)
6.   Going to the River, See Can I Look Across--Eddie Kirkland   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87834#msg87834)
7.   Blues--Big Boy   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87891#msg87891)
8.   I Love My Jelly Roll--David Edwards   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87891#msg87891)
9.   My Poor Mother Keeps On Praying For Me--Wallace Chains   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87928#msg87928)
10.   Blues--Eddie Bowles   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg87967#msg87967)
11.   Alabama Prison Blues--Jesse Wadley   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88043#msg88043)
12.   Bug Juice Blues--Kid Prince Moore   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88108#msg88108)
13.   Nobody Knows My Name--Unknown   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88108#msg88108)
14.   What Did the Doodlebug Say to the Mole?--Gabriel Brown   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88108#msg88108)
15.   Trouble--Reese Crenshaw   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88351#msg88351)
16.   A and B Blues--Boy Green   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88383#msg88383)
17.   Natural Man Blues--Johnny Howard   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88431#msg88431)
18.   I Tried--Sylvester Cotton   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88431#msg88431)
19.   Guitar Picking Song--Lucius Curtis   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88431#msg88431)
20.   Tampa Blues--Skoodle Dum Doo and Sheffield   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88537#msg88537)
21.   Sometimes I Wonder--Leroy Campbell and Robert Sanders   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88618#msg88618)
22.   Ding Dong Ring--Unknown   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88735#msg88735)
23.   Gas Ration Blues--Skoodle Dum Doo and Sheffield   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88791#msg88791)
24.   I Won't Be Dogged Around--Bull City Red   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88862#msg88862)
25.   West Side Blues--Willie Harris   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88918#msg88918)
26.   Shanty Boat Blues--Jimmy Murphy   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88967#msg88967)
27.   Wildcat Tamer--Tarheel Slim   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88967#msg88967)
28.   New Root Man Blues--Georgia Slim   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg88967#msg88967)
29.   Tennessee Woman Blues--Johnny Shines   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89019#msg89019)
30.   Alone For A Long Time--Charles Caldwell   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89078#msg89078)
31.   Poor Little Angel Girl--Dennis McMillon   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89099#msg89099)
32.   The Truth--Precious Bryant   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89142#msg89142)
33.   Poor and Ain't Got A Dime--Floyd Council   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89186#msg89186)
34.   Sun Don't Shine--Teddy Williams   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89250#msg89250)
35.   I See God In Everything--E. C. Ball   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89292#msg89292)
36.   Smokey Mountain Blues--Wallace Chains   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89324#msg89324)
37.   French Blues--Frank Evans   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89355#msg89355)
38.   Trench Blues--John Bray   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89414#msg89414)
39.   Pick and Shovel Blues--Bull City Red   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89414#msg89414)
40.   Station Boy Blues--Roosevelt Antrim   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89414#msg89414)
41.   Baton Rouge Rag--Joe Harris   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89459#msg89459)
42.   Mama, You Goin' to Quit Me?--Allison Mathis   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89504#msg89504)
43.   Nobody's Business If I Do--Joe Harris   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89587#msg89587)
44.   Poor Joe Breakdown--Robert Davis   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89587#msg89587)
45.   Free Again--Robert Pete Williams   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89653#msg89653)
46.   Dyin' Soul--Robert Pete Williams   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89653#msg89653)
47.   Guitar Blues--Johnny St. Cyr   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89757#msg89757)
48.   Square Dance Calls--Pete Harris (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89803#msg89803)
49.   Ella Speed--Wallace Chains   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89803#msg89803)
50.   Country Girl Blues--George Boldwin   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89850#msg89850)
51.   Fandango--Bill Tatnall   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89850#msg89850)
52.   Thunder In Germany--Joel Hopkins   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89913#msg89913)
53.   Old Time Rounders--Emmett Murray   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg89991#msg89991)
54.   Too Many Women Blues--Willie Lane   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg90051#msg90051)
55.   Motherless and Fatherless Blues--Charlie McCoy   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg90121#msg90121)
56.   Goin' Where the Monon Crosses the Yellow Dog--Scrapper Blackwell   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg90200#msg90200)
57.   Blues Knocking At My Door--Carolina Slim   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg90306#msg90306)
60.   Alabama March--J B Lenoir   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg90525#msg90525)
61.   Hungry Spell--Ranie Burnette   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg90620#msg90620)
62.   Let Me Be Your Sidetrack--Jimmie Rodgers and Clifford Gibson   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg90723#msg90723)
63.   Badly Mistreated Man--Carl Martin   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg90772#msg90772)
64.   Hoot Your Belly--Jimmy Lee Williams   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg90835#msg90835)
65.   Hard Luck Man--Sonny Scott   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg90920#msg90920)
66.   Born in Texas--Tom Shaw  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91068#msg91068)
67.   Muddy Shoes Blues--Jewell Long   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91068#msg91068)
68.   Bulldog Blues--Luther Huff   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91068#msg91068)
69.   1951 Blues--Luther Huff  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91179#msg91179)
70.   Home Again Blues--Frankie Lee Sims  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91249#msg91249)
71.     Riverside Blues--Joe Callicott  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91400#msg91400)
72.   This Heart of Mine--Josh White  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91400#msg91400)
73.   Guitar Stomp--Big Bill Broonzy  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91400#msg91400)
74. Eloise--Ralph Willis  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91493#msg91493)
75. I Lets My Daddy Do That--Hattie Hart  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91493#msg91493)
76. Against My Will--John Henry Barbee  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91591#msg91591)
77. Pickin' Low Cotton, pt. 2--Kid Prince Moore  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91591#msg91591)
78. Mean Conductor Blues--Roosevelt Holts  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91694#msg91694)
79. I Ain't Gonna Roll for the Big Hat Man No More--Joel Hopkins  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91694#msg91694)
80. Georgia Skin Blues--Memphis Minnie  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91852#msg91852)
81. Blue Shadow Falling--Buddy Moss  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91852#msg91852)
82. Stack O' Dollar--Arthur Weston  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91982#msg91982)
83. Holy Ghost Train--Rev. Robert Wilkins  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91982#msg91982)
84. Sleepless Nights Blues--Peetie Wheatstraw  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92162#msg92162)
85. Frisco Blues (Take 1)--Walter Roland & Sonny Scott  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92255#msg92255)
86. Fare Thee Blues, Part 1--Johnnie Head  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92354#msg92354)
87. Quincey Wimmens--Tallahassee Tight  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92354#msg92354)
88. I Been Down In the Circle Before--Sampson Pittman  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92465#msg92465)
89. Brown Skin Woman--Sylvester Cotton  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92465#msg92465)
90. Bad Luck Blues--Guitar Welch  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92631#msg92631)
91. Married Woman Blues--Frankie Lee Sims  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92631#msg92631)
92. 45 Blues--J. T. Smith  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92797#msg92797)
93. Kentucky Blues--George "Big Boy" Owens  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92797#msg92797)
94. Worried Blues--Babe Stovall  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92942#msg92942)
95. Hollandale Blues--Sam Chatmon  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg93119#msg93119)
96. She's My Baby--Sam Chatmon  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg93119#msg93119)
97. I'm A Crawling Black Snake--Lightnin' Hopkins  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg93341#msg93341)
98. Early Morning Blues--James Lowry  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg93467#msg93467)
99. Central Avenue Blues--Will Day  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg93654#msg93654)
100. I Get Evil When My Love Comes Down--Gabriel Brown  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg93654#msg93654)
101. Skippy Whippy--Mississippi Jook Band   (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg93654#msg93654)
102. Hattie Mae--Andrew Dunham  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg93821#msg93821)
103. Rocky Mountain--Jim Brewer  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg93821#msg93821)
104. Kentucky Guitar Blues--J. T. Adams  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94014#msg94014)
105. Brown Skinned Woman--Snooks Eaglin  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94014#msg94014)
106. I Don't Want No Hungry Woman--Floyd Council  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94140#msg94140)
107. Come On Baby--Rich Trice  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94140#msg94140)
108. Train Blues--Lucious Curtis  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94288#msg94288)
109. You're Gonna Miss Me When I'm Gone--Muddy Waters  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94288#msg94288)
110. Red River Blues--Charlie "Dad" Nelson  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94459#msg94459)
111. Two Ways To Texas--Emery Glen  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94459#msg94459)
112. Tear It Down--Cincinnati Jug Band with Bob Coleman  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94565#msg94565)
113. Sing Song Blues--Bob Coleman  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94565#msg94565)
114. Run Here, Fairo--Myrt Holmes  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94698#msg94698)
115. Easy Rider--Scott Dunbar  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94698#msg94698)
116. Stove Pipe Stomp--Big Bill Broonzy  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94819#msg94819)
117. Stump Blues--Big Bill Broonzy  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94819#msg94819)
118. Sister Jane Cross The Hall--Kokomo Arnold  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94929#msg94929)
119. Death Valley Blues--Arthur Crudup  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg94929#msg94929)
120. 180 Days--Tarheel Slim  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95055#msg95055)
121. 90 Going North--Frank Hovington  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95055#msg95055)
122. Hey Hey Mama Blues--Kid Cole  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95055#msg95055)
123. Whole Soul Blues--Papa Eggshell  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95135#msg95135)
124. Faro--Rosa Lee Hill  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95135#msg95135)
125. Lemon Man--Dan Pickett  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95256#msg95256)
126. T and T Blues--Mooch Richardson  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95256#msg95256)
127. Funny Caper Blues--Memphis Willie B.  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95332#msg95332)
128. Peakesville Boogie--Richard Wright  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95332#msg95332)
129. High As I Want To Be--Robert Pete Williams  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95411#msg95411)
130. Poor Bob's Blues--Robert Pete Williams  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95411#msg95411)
131. Just A Closer Walk With Thee-Rev. Robert Wilkins  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95411#msg95411)
132. I Will Fly Away--Pink Anderson  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95497#msg95497)
133. Hoppin' Toad Frog--J. T. Smith  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95497#msg95497)
134. Cat Squirrel--Dr. Ross  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95609#msg95609)
135. Pretty Polly--E. C. Ball  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95609#msg95609)
136. I've Been Mistreated--Georgia Slim  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95665#msg95665)
137. Dream Book Blues--Tommy Griffin  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95665#msg95665)
138. Georgia Blues--Cecil Barfield  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95823#msg95823)
139. Make Your Coffee--K. C. Douglas  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95823#msg95823)
140. I Want To Go--JB Lenoir  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95978#msg95978)
141. Was That The Human Thing To Do?--Bill Williams  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95978#msg95978)
142. My Laona Blues--Teddy Darby  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95978#msg95978)
143. Hard Times, Hard Times--unknown  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96044#msg96044)
144. Georgia Chain Gang--unknown  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96044#msg96044)
145. Further Down The Road--Elester Anderson  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96139#msg96139)
146. Pearl Harbor Blues--Roy Dunn  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96139#msg96139)
147. Chattanooga Blues--Lester McFarland  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96139#msg96139)
148. Insurance Man Blues--Washboard Walter & John Byrd  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96278#msg96278)
149. Jivin' Woman--Carolina Slim  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96278#msg96278)
150. Drove From Home Blues--Wright Holmes  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96402#msg96402)
151. One More Drink--Snooks Eaglin  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96402#msg96402)
152. Honey Bee Blues--Bumble Bee Slim  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96535#msg96535)
153. Guitar Pete's Blues--Pete Franklin  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96535#msg96535)
154. Blue Ghost Blues--Lonnie Johnson  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96642#msg96642)
155. Blood Red River--Eddie Hodge  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96642#msg96642)
156. Wolf's At Your Door--Lattie Murrell  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96755#msg96755)
157. Barrelhouse Blues--Ed Andrews  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96755#msg96755)
158. Stamp Blues--Tony Hollins  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96850#msg96850)
159. Rabbit Blues--Debs Mays  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96850#msg96850)
160. Poor Boy Blues--Willie Lofton  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96949#msg96949)
161. Soap Box Blues--Debs Mays  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96949#msg96949)
162. Black Bayou Ain't Got No Bottom--Blind Pete and partner  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97078#msg97078)
163. Found My Baby Crying--Lightnin' Hopkins  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97078#msg97078)
164. Sweet Little Woman--Doug Quattlebaum  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97255#msg97255)
165. I'm Going Away--Robert Curtis Smith  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97255#msg97255)
166. Bear Cat Blues--John Jackson  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97403#msg97403)
167. Pittsburgh Blues--Archie Edwards  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97403#msg97403)
168. Broken Heart--K. C. Douglas  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97514#msg97514)
169. Riley And Spencer--Fields Ward  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97514#msg97514)
170. You Ain't The Last Man--Elzadie Robinson & Johnny St Cyr  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97654#msg97654)
171. Step By Step--Lesley Riddle and Mike Seeger  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97654#msg97654)
172. If I Get Lucky--JB Lenoir  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97761#msg97761)
173. See What You Done Done--Baby Tate  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97761#msg97761)
174. Highway 80 Blues--Son Bonds  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97906#msg97906)
175. War Blues--Pernell Charity  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg97906#msg97906) 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on January 28, 2015, 02:03:07 PM
Wow!  65 songs already!  Time flies. Amazing Johnm!  Maybe I can figure a way to move this message to the top of the thread.  I might also edit your post and make the songs themselves the link by using the BBC button in the BBS list above (hint hint)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 29, 2015, 09:40:51 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Sonny Scott "Hard Luck Man" puzzler?  Come one, come all, answer as few of the questions as you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 29, 2015, 12:46:51 PM
If this is played out of E, he's a bit sharp or capo'd at the first fret as I'm hearing this in F.
 Assuming it's capo on 1st fret the fill he plays from :10--:15 is played out of an A7 barred at the 2nd fret and catching the E note on the 2nd string when needed.
 He plays from :21--:26 out of a long A shape barred at the 5th fret, mainly using the first string, frets 8, 6 and 5.

For the rest, 
   * Where does he fret the fill he plays from :36--:43, and how does he negotiate it in the right hand?
   * How does he start his verse accompaniment from 1:05--1:06?
   * Where does he fret, and how does he play the fill from 1:40--1:49?
this is where I get a bit lost. I'm hearing an E7th shape
-------7----
--5---------
-------7---
----6------
on the first 4 strings in there somewhere, but need to listen to this a whole lot more.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 30, 2015, 07:23:59 AM
E standard tuned or capoed to F.

10-15 lick is based around abbreviated A7 chord on first and second strings.  1/3b-0; 2/2; 1/0-3-0; 1/3b-0; 2/2; 1/0- 3b-3b-0

21-26  1/7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-5-4-5-4-5-4-7-5-4-5; 2/5-5

36-43  slide to 5/7 then pinch double stop 1/7 2/8 then 1/0 2/0 pinch double stop again

1.05-1.06 double stop 1/7 2/8

1.40- 1.49 Dunno
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 30, 2015, 09:04:57 AM
Just noticed a typo in my earlier answer.  Forgot to put this relative to capo so answer for :21--:26 should be frets 7,5 & 4 not frets 8, 6 and 5.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on January 31, 2015, 04:44:56 AM
a long time since i did one of these - thanks for keeping them going, johnm. it's always interesting to read them even if it's after the deadline!

I'm going for standard too, capo on 1 E shape sounding in F

fill at 10s
sounds like a D shape slid up to the 4th fret (relative to the capo)
21s
is played on the first string at the 7th fret - 7(x9),5,4,5,4,5,7,5,4,5,4,5,7,5,4,5
 second string s6-7, 5
36s is this a d shape at 4th fret with a pull off of the 1st string to open?
1.40 partial d7 shape on the top two strings at 5 and 6th frets hammer on to the 7th and using the matching open 1st string and 5th fret second string so
6h7,0
.......5

it all reminds me of robert johnson's A shape songs like kind-hearted woman
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 31, 2015, 03:32:16 PM
Hi all,
It looks like as many people who are going to respond to the "Hard Luck Man" puzzler have responded, so here are the answers:
   * Sonny Scott (and Walter Roland) play the song out of E position in standard tuning, as everyone had it.  Well done!
   * In the passage from :10-:15, Sonny Scott plays the following fill over his IV chord:  On beat 1, he hits the open fifth string with his thumb, followed by the first string bent at the third fret on the + of beat 1.  On beat 2, he picks the open first string, going to the fourth fret of the second string on the + of beat 2.  On beat 3, he plays a triplet, going from the open first string to a bent third fret of the first string followed by the open first string again.  The last note of the triplet sustains through beat 4.  In the second measure, he once again hits the open fifth string on beat one, followed by a bent third fret of the first string on the + of beat one.  On beat two, he plays a triplet going from the open first string to the fourth fret of the second string back to the open first string.  On beat 3 he goes from the fourth fret of the first string to the open first string on the + of beat 3.  On beat 4, he goes from the fourth fret of the second string to the open first string on the + of beat four.  This is such a nifty fill, and the real shocker is the fourth fret of the first string on beat 3 in the second measure--a G#, or a major 7 note relative to the A chord it happens over.  Whew!
   * From :21-:26, he plays the following fill over the V chord, B.  On beat 1, he brushes an index barre of the fourth, third and second strings at the fourth fret, and on the + of beat one he picks the seventh fret of the first string.  For beats two, three and four of the first measure he hits three triplets, striking in every instance the seventh fret of the first string.  In the second measure, he plays a triplet on beat 1, going from the fifth fret of the first string down to the fourth fret of the first string and returning to the fifth fret.  On beat 2 he plays a triplet on the first string going from the seventh fret to the fifth fret and the fourth fret.  On beat 3, he plays another triplet on the first string, hitting the fifth fret and then the seventh fret twice.  On beat four, he does a quick little pull-off from the fifth fret of the first string to the fourth fret, followed by the open first string on the + of beat four.  I think everyone who responded specifically to this question was right in the ball park.
   * Sonny Scott's fill from :36-:43 is another doozy.  He leads in on the + of the preceding beat 4 by sliding from the second fret to the seventh fret of the fifth string.  On beat 1, he hits the open sixth string, followed by a brush of the first string at the seventh fret and a bent eighth fret of the second string.  On beat 2, he re-brushes the seventh fret of the first string and the bent eighth fret of the second string, and on the + of beat two, he uses his thumb to strike the sixth fret of the third string.  On beat three, he re-brushes the seventh fret of the first string and the bent eighth fret of the second string and lets it sustain for the whole beat.  On beat four, he re-brushes that position on the first two strings, and on the + of beat four, he hits the open sixth string with his thumb.  On beat 1 of the next measure, he drags his thumb though and hits the seventh fret of the fifth string, followed by another brush of the seventh fret of the first string and a bent eighth fret of the second string on the + of beat one.  On beat 2, his thumb strikes the sixth fret of the third string while brushes the first two string open, and on the + of beat 2, he re-hits the sixth fret of the third string with his thumb.  On beat 3, he brushes the seventh fret of the first string and the bent eighth fret of the second string , followed by a snapped pull-off to the open first string.  On beat 4, he hits the sixth fret of the third string with his thumb, followed by the open sixth string on the + of beat 4, leading into the seventh fret of the fifth string to begin the next measure just as he had the second measure of the lick.  It's hard to say how Sonny Scott may have fingered this passage--If he used his second finger to slid up to the seventh fret of the fifth string, he could have fingered the sixth fret of the third string with his index finger, the eighth fret of the second string with his little finger and the seventh fret of the first string with his third finger, ending up with 0-7-X-6-8-7.  More likely, perhaps, he gave up the fifth string altogether after hitting it and just fretted the first three strings.  That territory of 6-8-7 or 6-0-0 on the first three strings is one that was mined by Charley Jordan on "Big Four". 
   * He starts the verse from 1:05--1:06 by pinching the fourth fret of the first and third strings and sliding that position up to the seventh fret.
   * Sonny Scott starts the fill from 1:40-1:49 in the very position he finished the last puzzler question in, probably with his second finger fretting the seventh fret of the third string and his third finger fretting the seventh fret of the first string.  In the first measure, he strikes the seventh fret of the third string on all four beats.  In the treble, for beats 1, 2, and 3, he brushes triplets of the seventh fret of the first string and the open second string.  on the fourth beat, he plays another triplet, brushing the seventh fret of the first string and the open second string, pulling off to the open first string for the middle note of the triplet and re-hitting the open first string on the last note of the triplet.  In measure two, he pinches the open first string against his thumb striking the sixth fret of the third string,  and on the middle note of the beat 1 triplet, he slides his second finger up to the seventh fret of the third string and on the last note of the beat one triplet, he picks the open second string. On beat 2, he pinches the seventh fret of the first and third strings, bouncing his left hand so that the notes are accented and then damped, and on the + of beat two he hits the open first string.  Beat three is the same as beat one and beat four is the same as beat two.  He keeps the lick that he starts in the second measure going for another couple of measures, and boy is it cool!  He had so many great licks in this song, and I think this one is my particular favorite.
Thanks to all who participated, and I think people were all in the right neighborhood, perhaps apart from that last fill, which was so unusual.  Roi's suggestion that Walter Roland may have been playing lead was interesting, but I'm inclined to think it was Sonny Scott, after all, just because his vocal expresses real tension in a couple of places in the song, places that coincide with doing something on the guitar that would have made it pretty sporting to play and sing at the same time.  Were Sonny playing the rhythm guitar part, I don't think he would have been taxed at all by it, or sound as though he was.
I will post another puzzler soon.  I apologize for the length of the explanations, but what Sonny Scott played was so interesting that I didn't want to slough over it.
All best,
Johnm     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 03, 2015, 03:56:36 PM
Hi all,
It's been a little while since we've had a puzzler which simply involved picking the playing position/tuning for several performances.  The first here is Thomas Shaw's "Born In Texas":

Thomas Shaw - Born in Texas (1971) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0rz92xtVWY#)

I'm goin' away now, mama, sorry but I can't carry you
Now, I'm goin' away, baby, sorry but I can't carry you
Ain't nothin' down the road that a monkey gal can do

Now, 'f you'll tell me, mama, can I be your salty dog?
Now, tell me, baby, can I be your salty dog?
I was your dog last week, gal, all the week before

Now, tell me, mama, tell me, I go home wit' you?
Now, tell me, baby, can I go home wit' you?
Say, ain't nothin' to-mama, that poor boy can't do

Now, ain't no use to talkin', mama, 'bout that old rat-back chair
Well, it ain't no use talkin', mama, 'bout that old rat-back chair
Some nice old joker got the best store here

Now, play me for your fool, mama, do let you have your way
Don't play me for your fool, mama, 'cause I do let you have your way
Ain't nothin' never happened like I'm gonna change on you someday

I's born in Texas, mama, but I did not stay
I was born in Texas, babe, I did not stay
I had a nice little old woman, partner, brought poor me away

Ain't gonna tell you, mama, what the Santa Fe done to me
I ain't gonna tell nobody what the Santa Fe done to me
Well, it taken my Tommy, come back and got my used-to-be

OUTRO

The second performance is Jewell Long's "Muddy Shoes Blues".  Here it is:

Jewell Long Muddy Shoes Blues (1960) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxM4uiaq86Q#)

My baby, she went away, my baby, she left me a mule to ride
My baby, she went away, she didn't leave me nothin' but a mule to ride
Soon as that train pulled off, that old mule laid down and died

My baby, I'm goin' away, baby, I won't be back until Fall
I'm goin' away, I won't be back until Fall
If you don't treat me no better, baby, daddy sure won't be back at all

Now, do it a long time, baby, short time make me mad
Do it a long time, baby, short time sure make me mad
'Cause you're the sweetest little baby that your daddy ever had

Baby, baby, do you think that's right?
Baby, why don't you tell me, baby, you know that ain't right
You done left me here waitin', baby, you've been gone all night

Baby, why don't you tell me, whose dirty muddy shoes are these?
You better hurry up and tell me, baby, whose dirty muddy shoes are these?
Layin' up here in the corner, where your good man's oughta be

I ain't got me, I ain't got me no more baby now
I ain't got me, I ain't got me no baby now
She was a dirty mistreater, she didn't mean me no good nohow

So baby, here your ticket, yonder stands your train
Baby, here is your ticket, yonder stand your train
I'm goin' back to my woman, you better go back to your man


The third performance is Luther Huff's "Bulldog Blues".  Here it is:

Luther Huff Bull Dog Blues TRUMPET 141 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ji-dJbn_eE#)

SOLO

Well now, you told me, baby, that you was gonna be good
I hear your name a-ringin' all over the neighborhood, now,
You told me, baby, that you was gonna be good
Said, but I hear your name a-ringin' all over the neighborhood

Now, I would rather be a bulldog (spoken: Woof!), goin' from town to town
Hate to be there with you, baby, take the stuff you puttin' down, now,
Rather be a bulldog, goin' from town to town
Tell you now, to there, with you, baby, takin' this stuff you're puttin' down (spoken: I wouldn't take that stuff, man!)

Now, if I had-a known, like I do today
I wouldn't-a been here, baby, you treatin' me this-a way, now
If I had-a known, like I do today
Says, I wouldn't-a been here, baby, you treatin' me this-a way

Now, I would rather be a bulldog (spoken: Woof!), sleepin' in the woods
Hate to be there with you, baby, 'cause you don't me me no good, now,
I would rather be a bulldog, sleepin' out in the woods
Said, now to be there with you, baby, and you don't mean me no good


The question in every instance is: What playing position/tuning is being used to play the song?  (In the Luther Huff song, please answer the question for the acoustic guitar.)  Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, no transcription software, and please wait until Thursday morning, February 5, to post your answers.  Thanks for participating!

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 05, 2015, 03:20:18 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Tom Shaw/Jewell Long/Luther Huff puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 06, 2015, 02:45:05 AM
I'll go with A, G and A too!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 06, 2015, 05:53:55 AM
A,G & not sure
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 06, 2015, 05:24:41 PM
Hi all,
It doesn't appear that there will be more responses on this puzzler, so I guess I'll post the answers.
   *  Playing position/tuning for Tom Shaw's "Born In Texas" is A position in standard tuning, as everyone had it.  Well done!
   *  Playing position/tuning for Jewell Long's "Muddy Shoes Blues" was G position in standard tuning, with everyone once again nailing it.
   *  Playing position for "Luther Huff's "Bull Dog Blues" was Spanish tuning.  I think that maybe I didn't express clearly enough in my original statement of the question which guitar I was inquiring about.  For what it's worth, I was asking about not the guitar that carries the descending bass line, but the one that enters around the :11 mark.  When I first started listening to the tune, I thought it was out of G position in standard tuning, but as soon as it went to the IV and V7 chords, I knew it was being played in Spanish.  I think this is such a strong cut, and it's not one I had ever heard before. 

Thanks to all of you who participated, and I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 07, 2015, 04:59:25 AM
The Luther Huff track has a very Tommy Johnson feel to it.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on February 07, 2015, 08:54:10 AM
The Luther Huff track has a very Tommy Johnson feel to it.

Yes, it's very Maggie Campbell. That's a cool one, Johnm, I don't remember giving it much attention before (though it was on the late great Weenieology Post-War Blues Disc 2 along with "Rosalee" by the same duo)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 07, 2015, 03:32:16 PM
Huh, I had completely forgotten "Bulldog Blues" was on that Weenie compilation, uncle bud.  For years the only tune I associated with Luther Huff was "1951 Blues", which is a great tune also.  I especially like the intensity of the mandolin player's tremolo on "Bulldog Blues"--he's just screaming!  And the piece does have a strong Tommy Johnson feel as you and Phil pointed out.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on February 09, 2015, 10:14:54 AM
It seemed to me from a little googling around that Luther Huff was the one playing mandolin on that recording. Is that right? I'm always looking for more blues mandolin listening.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 09, 2015, 10:26:55 AM
Hi Lastfirstface,
I found similar information googling--I don't know who would have been playing the guitar part in Spanish, perhaps Percy Huff, and as for the second guitar part, I don't have any idea.  Thanks for bringing that up.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 09, 2015, 05:36:32 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  Continuing in the Luther Huff vein, it is his "1951 Blues".  Here is the song:

Luther Huff 1951 Blues (1951) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPXu96nnSlQ#)

Nineteen-fifty, Lord, was not my year
Nineteen-fifty, Lord, was not my year
I hope blues and trouble, boys, hurry and disappear

Woman I was lovin', nineteen-forty-eight
Woman I was lovin', nineteen-forty-eight
She was a married woman, she couldn't keep her business straight

Had no woman, nineteen-forty-nine
Had no woman, nineteen-forty-nine
I'm going to get me a woman, boys, or run my fool self blind

Make that better, nineteen-fifty-one
Make that better, nineteen-fifty-one
Says, I'm going to make that better, boys, in nineteen-fifty-one

Had no woman, nineteen-forty-nine
Had no woman, nineteen-forty-nine
I'm gon' get me a woman, boys, I'm run my fool self blind


The questions on "1951 Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning was used to play the song?
   * What is the progression of the song, expressed either in the position in which it was played, or expressed numerically (I, IV, V)?
   * Where and how is the signature lick that falls in the third and fourth bars of each phrase fretted and played?
   * Where does the seconding guitar fret the bass run that is played in the tenth bar of each verse?

As always, please use only your ears and your instrument to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Wednesday morning, February 11, so that plenty of people have a chance to listen and come up with their own answers.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Bunker Hill on February 09, 2015, 11:21:10 PM
It seemed to me from a little googling around that Luther Huff was the one playing mandolin on that recording. Is that right? I'm always looking for more blues mandolin listening.
FWIW Percy Huff was interviewed by Gayle DeanWardlow and published in Blues Unlimited 56 (Sep 1968) - in 1998 reprinted in Chasin? That Devil Music (pp. 112-114) and includes as nice photo of Percy.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: rein on February 11, 2015, 02:45:27 AM
I had a longer reply but it seems to have got lost in the mail when I was timed out by the time I posted it  but in short: tuning : spanish structure, intro IV riff(I) IV riff V bass run (I) riff
riff based around the 7th chord on the 3rd fret of the 2nd and 1st string, 4th note on the 2nd string 1st fret and a slide from minor to major 3rd on the 3rd string frets 3 and 4.
Bass run is based around a I chord so (in Spanish) 5th string open and 4th fret, 4th strin open and frets 2 and 3.
Lets hope I didn t ridicule myself on my very first post, but I had fun, thanks a lot. Rein
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 11, 2015, 03:19:01 PM
Hi all,
Welcome to Weenie Campbell, rein, and thanks for participating!  Any other takers for the puzzler on Luther Huff's "1951 Blues"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 12, 2015, 02:59:03 AM
D standard. IV/I/IV/i/V/IV/I. For the signature lick I think he holds down a first position D chord over which he plays on the first string E>Fsharp>G>Fsharp, all notes apart from the E having a triplet feel. The seconding guitar plays also in D: str/fr 5/0>5/2>4/0>4/2>4/3>4/2>4/05/2>4/0.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: pete1951 on February 12, 2015, 09:31:29 AM
This seems to fit Spanish (G) very well. (as I only play in Spanish that could just be me) The chords are almost Rollin` and Tumblin` (usually an extra bar at the end so more 14 1/2 rather than 13 1/2) so each verse starts on the IV.
Very interesting, the starting riff (to my Robert Johnson obsessed ears) is like Preachin`the Blues backwards!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 12, 2015, 12:40:52 PM
I'm getting D standard too.
The form is 12 bar (ish)
IV | IV | I | I |
IV | IV | I | I |
V  | IV | I | I |

For signature lick, I'm getting the D shape, first slid from the Db position into D
then a sort of brush strum triplets, first catching the G on the first string, then 2 brushes of the regular D chord
then triplet of the regular D chord, followed by another D chord triplet, but only catching the A and D on the 2nd & 3rd strings.

The run at the 10th bar, I think Prof Scratchy has it spot on.

This tune sounded really familiar and sure enough, I've got it on Downhome Delta Blues 1949-1952 an album that was no stranger to my turntable some years ago but I haven't listened to in ages.  Guess which is the next album that going on :-)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on February 12, 2015, 02:54:02 PM
I'll go for D standard, too.

G/ D/
G/ D/
A G D/
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 13, 2015, 08:34:34 AM
Hi all,
Thanks to all who participated in the "1951 Blues" puzzler.  It's neat to see some first-time responders too, welcome!  It looks like everyone who was likely to post has done so, so here are the answers:
   * Playing position was D in standard tuning, as several of you had it.  One of the aural clues that can often help to identify the sound of D position in standard tuning is that the D chord in standard tuning voices its third, F#, on the second fret of the first string.  So often when playing in D position, when players go to the IV chord they voice the seventh of the IV chord, F, at the first fret of the first string; then when they return to the I chord, that F note resolves upward by half-step to F# in the D chord.  You can hear that movement in "1951 Blues" happening between the IV7 chord that begins each of the first two vocal phrases and the signature lick which follows it.
   * Chord progression is as a number of you had it:   
    |    IV    |    IV    |    I    |    I    |
    |    IV    |    IV    |    I    |    I    |
    |    V     |    IV    |    I    |    I    |
   * The signature lick is likewise pretty much as a couple of you had it.  Here it is, situated relative to the pulse:  On beat I, third fret of second string is pinched with the bass.  + of beat one, the bass alternates.  On 2-uh, he goes from a slide into the second fret of the first string then to the third fret of the second string, probably moving the entire D shape to get the slide, as has been suggested.  On the + of beat two, the bass alternates.  On 3-uh, he goes from the third fret of the first string to the third fret of the second string and on the + of beat three he alternates his bass.  On 4-uh, he re-slides into the second fret of the first string and then hits the third fret of the second string, and on the + of beat four he alternates his bass.  On beats two, three and four, the rhythm is two sixteenth notes in the treble followed by an eighth note in the bass.  It is not a triplet--there is no swing or shuffle feel.  The time is straight up and down, all duple in feel.
   * The seconding guitarist's bass run is exactly as Prof. Scratchy had it:  open fifth, second fret fifth, open fourth, second fret fourth, third fret fourth, second fret fourth, open fourth, second fret fifth.

One of the things I especially like about the ensemble sound in "1951 Blues" is the way the guitars are right on top of each other.  I know the well-worked out sounds of duos like Stokes & Sane, Tarter & Gay, Memphis Minnie and Kansas Joe are much-admired, and deserve to be, but I also think there's something to be said for the wild musical "puppy pile" sound you get by throwing caution to the winds, often happily occupying exactly the same musical space, playing by feel, and just blasting.  It may not be nifty, but man, is it alive!

I'll try to find another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm 
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 15, 2015, 10:42:01 AM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you:  "Home Again Blues", by Frankie Lee Sims, from 1948.  This performance is one I think of as being "cover-proof", which is to say, having a combination of qualities that I doubt anyone other than Frankie Lee Sims will ever be fortunate enough to put together in such a way again.  Nonetheless, it is so strong, and interesting and rewarding to listen to, it seems a good song to spend some time with, and possibly use as a source for ideas.  Here is Frankie Lee's performance:

Frankie Lee Sims Home Again Blues (1948) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMcVzeAPN0o#)

I went down home, boys, where the weather suits my clothes
I done fooled 'round here in Dallas, boys, 'til I'm done got cold
If you see my woman, please 'od, tell her I said to hurry home
Boy, I ain't had no real lovin', my God, boys, since my old woman's been gone

Ain't that a shame, low-down dirty shame?
Boys, ain't that a shame, low-down dirty shame?
Boy, to love a sweet little woman, boy, and you're scared to call her name

Baby
SOLO

Well, If I'd a-listened, what my Mama said
I'd a-been at home, boys, sleepin' in my Mama's bed
But you know how boys and girls nowadays, they won't pay their mother no mind
Because they gone all night, your mother's in her back door cryin'

Baby, baby, baby, hear me callin' you?
Baby, can't you hear this black man callin' you?
Well, I'm goin' down the country, woman, God know what more can a black man do

Here are the questions on "Home Again Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did Frankie Lee Sims use to play the song?
   * What is the form of the first verse he sings, mapping out chords and the length of time he spends in them, as expressed in bars?
   * Where does he fret the passage from :10-:12?
   * Where does he fret the fill from :57-:59?
   * Where does he fret the fill from 1:32-1:35?

Please use only yours ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers prior to Tuesday morning, February 17.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy this song as much as I do.
All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 18, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Frankie Lee Sims "Home Again Blues" puzzler?  Come one, come all, and answer only the questions you feel like answering.  Thanks to all who participate.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 18, 2015, 01:19:11 PM
I'll get this started but I'm really pushed for time so only answering the first question.  After just the one listen, I'm going with A standard, regular tuning.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: andrescountryblues on February 18, 2015, 02:10:26 PM
Ok, I'll try!

* What playing position/tuning did Frankie Lee Sims use to play the song?
Standard tuning key of A

* What is the form of the first verse he sings, mapping out chords and the length of time he spends in the them, as expressed in bars?
First 4 bars of I (4 beats each)
One bar of IV (4 beats) + 2 beats of IV
Two bars of I (4 beats each)
One bar of V (4 beats) + 2 beats of IV
Two bars of I (4 beats)

* Where does he fret the passage from :10-:12?
|----------5-5-5--
|-----3----3-3-3-
|-------5--------
|-3-4-----------
|----------------
|----------------

* Where does he fret the fill from :57-:59?
Bending the 3rd string 7th fret and fretting the first and second string with the index finger 5th fret

* Where does he fret the fill from 1:32-1:35?
Not sure at all about this one but I think it involves pull offs in the first string from 5th fret to 3rd and to open string

By the way I want to say that its been 10 years since I registered. I always been more of a reader than a poster but I'm planning on participate more. I like this puzzlers idea! a great opportunity to learn from you all.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 18, 2015, 02:36:34 PM
Don't have a guitar to hand right now but will say G standard for the tuning.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Norfolk Slim on February 19, 2015, 01:20:07 AM
I have to take the kids out to the "pirate half term" at the Fleet Air Arm museum shortly so time is limited but...

I'm firmly with G standard, capoed at 2.  I think the 10-12 section is just played naturally out of the C shape.  and the 57 section is worked around 5/6/7/ on the 3rd string...

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 19, 2015, 03:46:14 AM
I got as far as G standard....no time with an instrument at present
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: pete1951 on February 19, 2015, 10:04:41 AM
Spanish A fits best to me .
PT
I find tab hard, and standard notation harder, so I`ll let others do the difficult stuff.
It is basically a 12bar with 1/2 a bar missing around the 5th
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on February 19, 2015, 02:19:45 PM
Regardless of pitch, the real clincher is the bass riff played at about 1:05 - weird and awkward in anything but std tuning, A position.

A lot of the licks are pinky-intensive in A, but that's A for ya...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 20, 2015, 12:50:39 AM
Yes, like I was saying... Definitely A standard.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: pete1951 on February 20, 2015, 05:33:29 AM
[quote , the real clincher is the bass riff played at about 1:05 - weird and awkward in anything but std tuning, A position
[/quote]
It seems fine (as a someone who only plays in Spanish) if you play it just on the 5th string. Though it would be more elegant, and less awkward if the 4th string was a D
Anyway, I think the top string is an `E` and the bottom E and A which is the same as most other posts..........The other strings , well Johnm will enlighten us in due coarse
PT
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 20, 2015, 07:54:09 AM
Have guitar, A!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on February 20, 2015, 09:24:54 AM
I've got the position (A) I'm pretty sure, and 10-12 lick similar to what andrescountryblues describes, but that's as far as I've gotten so far.  I could probably work out the rest by slowing it down, but I'm trying to play be the rules...my ear just isn't quick enough, yet.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Zoharbareket on February 20, 2015, 12:34:33 PM
I'll give it a rough try too...

I am hearing A.

   * Where does he fret the passage from :10-:12?
seems to me that he is starting something with a movement from the 3rd to the 4th fret on the fourth string.

   * Where does he fret the fill from :57-:59?
starting from  the 6th to the 7th on the 3rd and then to a partial D on the high two strings??

   * Where does he fret the fill from 1:32-1:35?
not sure....but it sure sound nice!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 20, 2015, 01:05:17 PM
An unexpected chance to look at this again. 
For  the passage from :10-:12, fill from :57-:59  andrescountryblues pretty much has it.

* Where does he fret the fill from 1:32-1:35?
I'm hearing pull offs in the first string from 5th fret to 3rd also, something like:
5p 3---5p 3-----5p 3
------5-------5--------5---3
--------------------------------5--5--2
---------------------------------------
---------------------------------------
---------------------------------------
but can't decide if the c notes are on the 2nd str.
There sounds to be more going on there though.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on February 20, 2015, 01:55:06 PM
Ooops I accidentally read the replies!

A standard :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 20, 2015, 02:18:40 PM
Hi all,
Wow, it's great to see all the responses and some first-time participants in the thread.  Here are the answers to the puzzler:
   * Playing position was A, in standard tuning.  It's important to remember that the question is not how we would choose to play the song, or where we would place our own rendition, but where the musician in question played it.  In differentiating between standard tuning and open tuning alternatives that place the same voices on the respective strings, like Spanish tuning and A position in standard tuning, both of which are voiced 5-R-5-R-3-5 at the base of the neck, it quite often is the IV and V chord voicings that clinch which tuning/position is being used.  In this instance, Frankie Lee's voicings of his IV and V chords clearly point to A position in standard tuning.  In the very first verse, he starts out voicing his IV7 chord just like a standard C7 fingering in standard tuning, moved up two frets.  To get the same sound for a IV7 in Spanish would require the following very difficult fingering on the interior four strings:  5-2-3-1.  Not that it couldn't be done, but why do it, as opposed to something easier? 
   *  The bar structure for Frankie Lee's first verse was exactly as andrescountryblues had it--Four bars of I in the first line, followed by one six-beat measure of IV7 and two measures of I in the second line, and a six-beat measure with four beats of V7 and two beats of IV7 followed by two measure of I in the third line.  Well done, Andres!  Just as a point of interest, in Frankie Lee's second verse, the first line has three bars of I, the second has two bars of IV7 and two of I, and the third line is phrased the same as in the first verse.
   *  For the passage from :10-:12, Frankie Lee hits a pick-up note at the third fret of the fourth string, resolving up to the fourth fret of the fourth string on the downbeat of the measure.  On the + of beat one, he hits the third fret of the second string.  On beat two, he plays a triplet, going from the fifth fret of the third string to the third fret of the second string, then brushing the fifth fret of the first two strings, thus switching from a D7 to a D9, getting a more modern or uptown sound.  The last two beats of the measure, he brushes triplets hitting the first two strings at the fifth fret, keeping the D9 going. 
   *  For the passage from :57-59, Frankie Lee hits the second fret of the second string on the + of beat one.  On beat two, he plays a triplet, going from the third fret of the second string to a bent fourth fret of the second string on the last two notes of the triplet.  For the third beat, he brushes a triplet on the first two strings, fretting the first string at the fifth fret, and continuing to bend the second string at the fourth fret--very grungy!  On beat four, he plays a triplet going from the open first string to a slide into the second fret of the second string and ending on the second fret of the third string.
   *  For the passage from 1:32-1:35, he does three brushed double pull-offs on the first two strings, going from the fifth fret to the third fret on both of those strings and then brushing those two strings open.  That is one wild lick!  I would guess he fretted both strings at the fifth fret with his third or ring finger, both at the third fret with his index finger and just did it.  Those three licks take two beats to elapse and are followed by a triplet in which he hits the third fret of the second string followed by a brush of the first two strings at the first fret, with a slight bend of the second string at the first fret predominating in the sound.  He concludes the lick with one more brush of the first fret of the first two strings on beat four, followed by the second fret of the third string on the + of beat four.

This is such a great performance--Frankie Lee Sims really slays me.  On the one hand, it is kind of rough-sounding playing, but he is doing very inventive and difficult stuff throughout his rendition.  I suppose you could say, "Oh, well that's just an updated Texas A blues.", but the whole package, including his singing, makes for some superlative blues. 
Thanks to all who participated and I'll try to post another puzzler soon.
All best,
Johnm     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 25, 2015, 08:27:47 PM
Hi all,
I thought it might be a good time to do another one of the puzzlers where there are several performances and the only question of each is:  What playing position/tuning was used to play the piece?

Here is the first song, Joe Callicott's "Riverside Blues":

Mississippi Joe Callicott - Riverside Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8X1wQ-LukA#)

Well, you see, see that woman, got a mouth lined with gold
Well, I wouldn't mistreat her to save nobody's soul
Well, I would not mistreat her to save nobody's soul

Well, I walked up on the mountain and I looked up in the sea
And I spied my baby, a-swimmin' after me
Says, I spied my woman, swimming after me

Says, my baby got a mouth like the red light on the sea
Every time she smile, she shines her light on me
Every time she smile, she shines her light on

Says, I'm going to the telephone, gonna ring up Chief Police
Well, my good girl done jumped down and I can't see no peace
Said, my good girl jumped down, I can't see no peace

Says, I looked down the road, 'til my eyes got green and sore
I'm gonna look her this mornin', baby, I ain't gonna look no more
I'm gonna look this mornin', sweet girl, ain't gonna look no more


The second song is Josh White's "This Heart of Mine":

'This Heart Of Mine' JOSH WHITE (1933) Blues Guitar Legend (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwA_4sIc_N4#)

SOLO

REFRAIN:  This heart of mine, Lord, this heart of mine
King Jesus done changed, changed, changed this heart of mine

Now I don't do, things I used to do
Lord, I don't do, things I used to do
Lord, I don't do, things that I used to do
King Jesus done changed, changed, changed this heart of mine

REFRAIN:  This heart of mine, this heart of mine
King Jesus done changed, changed, changed this heart of mine

Now I don't go, places I used to go
Lord, I don't go, where I used to go
Lord, I don't go, where I used to go
King Jesus done changed, changed, changed this heart of mine

REFRAIN:  This heart of mine, this heart of mine
King Jesus done changed, changed, changed this heart of mine

SOLO

Now I don't drink, drinks I used to drink
Lord, I don't drink, things I used to drink
Lord, I don't drink, things I used to drink
KIng Jesus done changed, changed, changed this heart of mine

REFRAIN:  This heart of mine, this heart of mine
King Jesus done changed, changed, changed this heart of mine

REFRAIN:  This heart of mine, this heart of mine
King Jesus done changed, changed, changed this heart of mine

The third song is Bill Broonzy's "See See Rider":

Big Bill Broonzy - See See Rider (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcy9YDBjME4#)

Please make your determination of the playing position/tuning for these songs using only your ears and instruments, and please don't post any answers until Friday morning, February 27.  Thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on February 26, 2015, 10:22:08 AM
I'm confused by that Broonzy track being titled "See See Rider", isn't it "House Rent Stomp" that he's playing?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 26, 2015, 11:10:27 AM
Yes it's Guitar Shuffle/House Rent Stomp. The you tube video is  mis-titled (despite the protestations of the uploader). Here he is playing See See Rider:
http://youtu.be/3hIcF_1DTFg (http://youtu.be/3hIcF_1DTFg)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 27, 2015, 07:45:48 AM
I'll venture A standard, E standard (tuned very low) and C standard respectively.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 27, 2015, 08:15:24 AM
A standard, Vasterpol well low, C.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on February 27, 2015, 09:47:11 AM
A standard, Vasterpol well low, C.

Ditto.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Zoharbareket on February 27, 2015, 11:30:04 AM
I'd like to be able to say that I can figure out all three, but I am not there (hopefully 'yet'....)
Joe Callicot's tune sounds to me like A standard, Capoed on the 2nd fret.
Cant really figure out the other two....
nice ones, though!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 27, 2015, 01:02:06 PM
Joe Callicott is in A standard.  From 00:10 it sounds like he's frying eggs but I can't tell whether they are 'over easy' or 'sunny side up'...
The Josh White track, I'm a bit stumped on....he is so low tuned, could well be Vestapol as most folks say...but I'm not picking up on anything to give me a clue and I'm too scared to tune that low
Big Bill is in C standard
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on February 28, 2015, 07:07:48 AM
Joe Calicott sounds in B played from a long A position
Josh White in ? Open A
Big Bill could be C standard but there's something about it that makes me doubt ....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 28, 2015, 10:27:23 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though as many have responded to this puzzler as are likely to, so here are the answers:
   * Joe Callicott's "Riverside Blues" was played in A position in standard tuning, as I believe everyone had it.  Well done!  I found this track interesting because it is just about the only song I've heard from Joe's post-rediscovery recordings that had something of the sound of Joe's former playing partner, Garfield Akers.  Except for this performance, that sound seemed almost altogether absent from Joe's later recordings, which had more in common with Furry Lewis, Frank Stokes or Robert Wilkins' pre-blues material.
   * Josh White's "This Heart of Mine" was played in Vestapol, muy, muy low, at A, tuned a full fourth low.  I think of Josh's playing in Vestapol as being much the strongest aspect of his repertoire, and he really was, along with Connie Williams, one of the most sophisticated players in Vestapol.  One thing that gives away the Vestapol tuning is the fact that the song begins on a IV chord, and Josh voiced it with it's third in the bass, fingered X-2-0-1-2-0.  In Vestapol, unless the IV chord is barred, it almost always has its third as its lowest voice.  Josh's turn-around, too, is one commonly used in Vestapol, starting at 4-3 on the fourth and third string and then walked down until you come to the I chord, played on open strings.  Blind Boy Fuller used the same walk-down on "Little Woman, You're So Sweet" (and almost certainly got it from Josh, who recorded the tune before he did).  This song also illustrates why it is not particularly helpful to name open tunings by the pitch at which they sound, since open A would much more often end up being Spanish tuning a step high than Vestapol a fourth low.  Terms like Vestapol and Spanish, which describe which voice of the chord falls on each string are more helpful than referencing the pitch at which a tuning sounds.  In this instance, "Vestapol at A" would nail it right down.
   * The Bill Broonzy tune was played in C position in standard tuning, as I think everyone who responded had it.  Boy, Broonzy's playing has a wonderfully relaxed flow and swing here, doesn't it?

Thanks to all of you who participated, and I'll try to find another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 02, 2015, 02:12:05 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  It's sort of a double one, with the first puzzler fairly detailed and the other just asking one question.
The first performance is Ralph Willis' rendition of "Eloise".  He's a musician who seems terribly under-rated to me, really one of the top later-generation East Coast players.  Here is the song:

Eloise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-vYKxmSNxs#ws)

INTRO

I said, Eloise, Eloise, Great God, gal, you don't know I'm here
Eloise, Eloise, Great God, you don't know I'm here
Well, if you do, my darling, Great God, look like you would hear my care

You know I love you, Eloise, Great God, I'll tell the world I do
Yes, I love you, Eloise, Great God, I'll tell the world I do
Well Eloise, my darling, what make you treat me like you do?

You know, I left you, Eloise, standin' in my back door, cryin'
Yes, yes, I left that old gal in the door, cryin'
Well maybe someday, Eloise, you'll come to me and try to change your mind

I think it's lonesome, everything is lonesome everywhere
Hey gal, Eloise, I swear it's everywhere
I think I'll go back, North Carolina, maybe it won't be lonesome down there

SOLO (Spoken: Play it a little bit for me now)

Well, Eloise, I wanted the whole round world to know
I said, Eloise, Great God, I wanted the world to know
You made me walk from Chicago, slammin' down to the Gulf of Mexico

Well, I'm wonderin', will a matchbox hold my clothes?
Hey, hey, Great God, will a matchbox hold my clothes?
Eloise, I ain't got so many matches, Ralph got such a long way to go
 

The questions on "Eloise" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Ralph Willis use to play the song?
   * Where and how did he fret the little move in the bass from :09--:10?
   * Where  does he fret what he plays over his IV chord from :12--:14?
   * Where does he fret the little descending tag at the end of his solo, from 2:06--2:08?

The second song is Hattie Hart's rendition of "I Let My Daddy Do That", on which she was accompanied by Memphis Willie B. and Allen Shaw.  Here is the trio's performance:

Hattie Hart I Let My Daddy Do That (1934) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfuNmuSVEck#)

The question for "I Let My Daddy Do That" is:
   * What were the playing positions/tunings employed by the two guitarists on the song?  At this stage, I don't think there's any way of knowing which of the two guitarists played each of the parts, so it's not an issue of who played what, just what playing positions/tuning were used to play the song.

As always, please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers until Wednesday morning, March 5.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 02, 2015, 03:56:01 PM
Not answering prematurely, just wanted to say that the trio of Hart, Borum and Shaw are so, so good. Wish they had recorded a lot more (or that a lot more had been released, I think there's some unissued stuff there).
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 02, 2015, 04:33:31 PM
I couldn't agree more, Chris.  I think Borum and Shaw's duet accompaniments behind Hattie Hart are up there with the finest Country Blues duets by whomever, the Beale Street Sheiks, Memphis Minnie and Kansas Joe, you name it.  They were great!  And I know of a couple more tracks with that personnel that I'm going to post.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: andrescountryblues on March 03, 2015, 02:59:57 PM
Is the Ralph Willis video working for you? It says not available to me.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 03, 2015, 03:59:55 PM
Hi andrescountryblues,
Here is a different video of Ralph Willis' "Eloise".  Perhaps this one will work for you.

https://youtu.be/c-vYKxmSNxs

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on March 03, 2015, 04:06:14 PM
the first video was auto-generated by youtube (I think you can tell by the hashtag artist name #ralphwillis as the name of the uploader)

Someone said that those vids don't show up in some countries when posted on Facebook so maybe it's the same here
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ArthurBlake on March 03, 2015, 04:14:46 PM
the first video was auto-generated by youtube (I think you can tell by the hashtag artist name #ralphwillis as the name of the uploader)

Someone said that those vids don't show up in some countries when posted on Facebook so maybe it's the same here
I seem to get that a lot on Weenie, it must be something to do with countries, I am in Australia and some videos just come up as unavailable.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 03, 2015, 04:31:29 PM
So is the most recently posted version of the Ralph Willis tune viewable for you non-U.S. Weenies?  Please let me know.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on March 03, 2015, 06:16:12 PM
So is the most recently posted version of the Ralph Willis tune viewable for you non-U.S. Weenies?  Please let me know.
All best,
Johnm

At least it shows here in Germany. The earlier video was denied because of copyright disputes between YouTube/Google and the German copyright organization GEMA. This happens quite often nowadays, I'm afraid.
Thanks for re-posting, John!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: andrescountryblues on March 04, 2015, 05:07:18 AM
So is the most recently posted version of the Ralph Willis tune viewable for you non-U.S. Weenies?  Please let me know.
All best,
Johnm

It works here. Thanks!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 04, 2015, 09:25:37 AM
Thank you, Pan and Andres, for letting me know that the re-posted Ralph Willis video is viewable for you.  Have at it, guys.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 05, 2015, 03:34:39 AM
For the Ralph Willis one I'll say:A standard

09-10 = 5/3>4h; 4/0.1.2; 6/0

12-14= 6/0>1>2; 3/2;2/0>1>0;3/2>1; 4/2; 1/0; 2/>4>3>1; 3/2

206-208= 2/5;1/5;2/5;2/4;1/5;2/4;2/3;1/02/3;2/1>2h;1/5

For the Hattie Hart one I'll suggest:
Vestapol and C standard
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on March 05, 2015, 04:03:30 AM
I'm also saying A standard for the Ralph Willis.  Unfortunately not had time to go any further or listen to the Hattie Hart track.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jopoke on March 05, 2015, 05:07:02 PM
New to this thread, but will give it a go...

Hattie Hart's "I Let My Daddy Do That" - Sounds like one Guitar is in dropped D.  The other in C position Standard position. Pitch Db.

Ralph Willis "Eloise" tune in A standard tuning. 

Thanks,

Joe
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on March 05, 2015, 05:34:14 PM
I agree on the Hattie Hart tune that one guitar is in dropped D tuning. There is a distinctive Tommie Johnson style run during one chorus, on the pair of D tuned strings that indicates that to me. Although I suppose one could do that in Vastopol tuning.
That's all I have for now.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on March 05, 2015, 06:37:55 PM
The question for "I Let My Daddy Do That" is:
   * What were the playing positions/tunings employed by the two guitarists on the song?  At this stage, I don't think there's any way of knowing which of the two guitarists played each of the parts, so it's not an issue of who played what, just what playing positions/tuning were used to play the song.

This will sound crazy, and I'm not totally sold on it, but it sounds like the low guitar is played in spanish tuning, but with the 6th string as the root (assuming the guitar is tuned to G, he'd be playing out of D). The whole thing seems to live on the bottom 3 strings most of the time, with a couple of excursions to the 3rd string, and one place where I think I can hear a strum that includes the 2nd string ringing open at a 6th relative the I chord. The way he riffs over the IV chord makes drop D kind of unlikely, and that riff sits nicely in spanish, actually.

Since it sounds like Moanin' The Blues was played in much the same way, I'd guess that the low guitar was played by Allen Shaw, but I dunno..
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 06, 2015, 02:12:55 PM
Hi all,
It looks as though perhaps everyone who was going to respond to this puzzler has done so already, so I will post the answers, as best I can.
For Ralph Willis's "Eloise", here are the answers:
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning as everyone had it--well done!
   * For the passage from :09--:10, Ralph Willis is walking up into an E chord.  He hits the open fourth string on the + of beat three, and on beat four plays a triplet hitting the first fret of the fourth string on the first note, the second fret of the fourth string on the second note of the triplet, and on the third note doing a grace note hammer from the first to the second fret of the fourth string, resolving then to an open sixth string on the downbeat of the next measure.  Willis's ploy of doing a grace note hammer in the middle of a triplet shows some real finesse, and he absolutely nails it.  Prof. Scratchy's solution was very close to this, but just started the phrase a little bit earlier.
   * In the passage from :12--:14, Willis is moving into his IV7 chord, D7.  He hits the first fret of the sixth string on the + of beat four in the ninth bar of the form, begins bar ten with a triplet that starts at the second fret of the sixth string and then goes from the first fret of the second string to the open second string.  Beat two is a triplet going from the second fret of the third string to the first fret of the third string and the second fret of the fourth string.  Beat three is a triplet going from the open first string to the third fret of the second string to the open second string.  Beat four is a triplet in which Willis slides his A partial barre from the first to the second fret of the second string for the first two notes of the triplet and finishes with the second fret of the third string.  Boy, the phrase has a beautiful flow to it.
   * For the phrase from 2:06--2:08 Willis hits the open fifth string on beat one and the + of beat one.  On beat two, he plays a triplet starting at the fifth fret of the second string, going to the fifth fret of the first string and returning to the fifth fret of the second string.  On be three, he similarly plays a triplet, moving everything from the second beat down one fret, going from the fourth fret of the second string to the fourth fret of the first string and back to the fourth fret of the second string.  On beat four, he does a grace note hammer and pull from the second fret of the second string up to the third fret of the second string and back, resolving down to the second fret of the third string on the + of beat four.  Once again, he nails a tricky passage.
 
I wonder if one reason Ralph Willis doesn't seem to generate more enthusiasm among present-day Country Blues fans (apart from not having been heard by many of them) is that his vocals most often have a jivey, off-hand, humorous quality.  Perhaps some people construe that as not feeling the music deeply, or as lacking a particular kind of emotional intensity they're looking for.  This is just guesswork on my part, and since I like Willis's singing, I may be way off base.  In any event, he was an ace player, really as strong as just about any East Coast player when working in his most favorite positions.

The Hattie Hart puzzler, "I Let My Daddy Do That" ended up being much more difficult than I thought it would be when I posted it.  I'm impressed that everyone picked up on the fact that one of the guitars was being played in the C position, since I didn't think that was necessarily easy to hear.  Just for identification purposes, let's say the C player was Memphis Willie B.
As for the playing position of the Allen Shaw part, Vestapol, Dropped-D and Spanish have all been proposed, and as much as can be heard of the part, any one of them could work.  I don't think I can definitively say what position/tuning was used, but if we look at what was played in this part, perhaps we can determine which of those options was most likely to have been used.
As Frank noted, the playing of this low guitar part to a great extent lives on the bottom three strings.  It centers around the V note of the key, played on the fifth string.  In the opening verse it goes from V up a whole step to VI, then up to I note above on the open fourth string and then a bent bIII note going back and forth down to the root on the open fourth string.  In both Vestapol and Dropped-D, the move from V to VI on the fifth string would involve going from the open fifth string to the second fret of the fifth string.  In Spanish, the same pitches would be found at the second and fourth fret of the fifth string, a little odd, but certainly not a knuckle-buster to play.  When the low part goes to the IV chord, the notes played in the bass are V up to VI up to I up to II up to bIII back to II back to I back to VI.  In Vestapol and Dropped-D, those notes would be found at the open fifth string and second fret of the fifth string and the open fourth string and second and third frets on the fourth string.  In Spanish, the notes on the fourth string would live in the same place, but the notes on the fifth string would each live two frets higher.  Going to the V chord, the low part plays a pick-up triplet, going from V to VI to bVII, and then goes 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +, moving from VII to the V note an octave above the one the triplet started on, down one whole step to IV, continuing down to II, the going from a bent bVII note down to V where the pick-up triplet started.  This phrase strong favors Vestapol and Dropped-D over Spanish in terms of ease of execution.  The ascending triplet that starts the phrase sits at open-second fret-third fret on the fifth string, and the VII note that is then resolved into is at the fourth fret of the fifth string, with all of this sitting very easily under the left hand.  The same passage sits two frets higher in Spanish, with the triplet at the second-fourth-fifth frets of the fifth string and the VII note at the sixth fret of the fifth string.  This seems very awkward and non-intuitive in the left hand to me.  The remainder of the V chord phrase is one of the few places in this guitar part where Vestapol and Dropped-D would have different left hand solutions thus far.  In Vestapol, you would jump from the fourth fret of the fifth string to the open second string, continuing down to the first fret of the third string to the second fret of the fourth string, ending up with a bent third fret of the fifth string resolving down to the open fifth string.  In Dropped-D, you'd jump from the fourth fret of the fifth string to the second fret of the third string, resolve down to the open third string, continuing to the second fret of the fourth string, ending on the fifth string as you did in Vestapol. 
In a subsequent verse comes the boogie bass over the IV chord that makes the strongest case for the Spanish tuning that Frank suggested.  In Spanish, it would live at the open fifth string-fourth fret fifth string-open fourth string-second fret fourth string-third fret fourth string and then back in the reverse of the ascending line.  In Vestapol and Dropped-D, the first two notes of the boogie bass would be awkwardly located at the fifth fret of the sixth string and the second fret of the fifth string.  Spanish tuning also makes the sixth note in the treble that Frank remarked upon most easily accessible, on the open second string.  In Vestapol, the same note would live at the second fret of the second string, a place Bo Carter often used it when playing in Vestapol.
All of this having been said, there is something screwy going on with this tune.  When you listen to it carefully, it becomes apparent that there are either three guitars playing through-out, with one doing a simple chordal accompaniment for the most part or the duo recorded the track on a stretch of tape they had already recorded a previous take on, and there was bleed-through from the previous take.  I think the second explanation may be the correct one.  Listen to the solo, especially noting the stretch going to the IV chord, around 2:24; you can clearly hear a guitar enter in the low part with a different tonal quality than had been present in the solo up to that point, while the low part continues to play, and the high part keeps going.  What is up with that?  There are places from the beginning of the rendition on, where the high part is up the neck, the prominent single string work in the bass is happening, and there is unaccounted for chordal texture in the mid-range.  Once again, as performed by a duo working live, the texture and division of labor makes the sound that is heard impossible.  I don't know if we'll ever know exactly what happened.
Sorry to be so gabby, but the rendition really poses some tough questions.  The high guitar part is in C position, and while I can't be certain about the low part, my best guess would be dropped-D tuning.  The fact is, though, that with a reasonably agile left hand, the low part could have been played in any of the three suggested tunings/positions.  If those of you who have been reading this are guitarists and have the time to do so, I suggest you try playing the passages that were described in the three different playing positions/tunings and see which would suit your own preference in the left hand.  It will also clue you in to figuring out where the same melodic line would sit in different tunings or positions.

Thanks for your participation and I'll try to find another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jopoke on March 06, 2015, 05:45:06 PM
Thank you for the detailed explanation John. Based on the responses from both you and Frank, I realize I need to work on more Spanish and Vestapol tunes.  I don't play in these tunings enough to have considered either an option.

This is a fantastic thread, regret I did not get involved sooner.

Thanks,

Joe
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 06, 2015, 06:41:27 PM
Well, it's good to have you join in, Joe.  Don't be a stranger!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 06, 2015, 07:13:12 PM
One thing Vestapol and dropped-D have in their favor on "Let My Daddy," at least to me, is that the low V note sure sounds like an open string to me. I'd vote for dropped-D myself.

As far as a third guitar, John I think you're right, there is a third one, and it seems to me it's there, subtly, on this and on "I'm Missing That Thing." I can't really put my finger on it except there's a denseness there that doesn't seem like it comes from only two guitars being crisply picked with a lot of single-note runs.

On this tune, I think you can hear the third guitar by itself at the very end of the tune, literally about the last half-second, there are two midrange strums that have a different sound than either of the "lead" instruments, both of which have ended on a single note. I think a third instrument is more likely than a recording mishap, especially because they would have been recording on disc, not tape, so either wax would be scraped off or a new disc would be used for a second take.

Looking in B&GR there are only two guitars listed, but man is it frustrating to see 15! unissued titles from those sessions. They're probably filed right next to the Vocalion Pattons.

PS if you haven't done it already the Harney Bros. duets behind Pearl Dickson might make good puzzler material.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 07, 2015, 09:36:38 AM
Thanks for pointing out the impossibility of the extra guitar being the result of bleed-through from an earlier take recorded on the same stretch of tape.  I'm weak on the history of recording technology and didn't know that in 1934  magnetic tape would still not have been introduced yet.  I'm going to re-listen the track a bunch more and see if I can suss out the playing position/tuning of the third guitar.  I suppose it's not altogether impossible that Hattie Hart was playing it herself, and if that were the case, it would would go some way towards explaining why no other guitarist was listed for the session.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 07, 2015, 09:51:42 AM
I'm sure there must be others, but I would say the earliest album in the blues genre to originate from tape rather than disc was probably Lead Belly's Last Sessions. I know the big labels used disc into the early '50s.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on March 07, 2015, 10:31:12 AM
But Alan Lomax was using tape for the field recording trip on which he recorded William Brown, hence the substantially longer than 3 minute recordings of Mississippi Blues and Ragged and Dirty, as well as the dialogue in between. So that was '42, IIRC.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 07, 2015, 10:39:00 AM
Thanks for that information, Chris.  Who would have thought that what was essentially a field recording would be a trail-blazer in terms of recording technology? 
I re-listened to "I Lets My Daddy Do That" and am certain that the mystery third guitar part was played in Vestapol.  You can hear it plainly at the very beginning of the song.  The song enters on a V7 chord, in the ninth bar of the form, with the third guitar providing chordal accompaniment and the high guitar part playing.  The low lead part enters more or less on the tenth bar of the form.  For that first bar of the intro, you can hear the chordally accompanying guitar voicing a V7 chord very plainly on the interior four strings, ascending from the fifth string, voicing the chord, R-5-b7-R, which is exactly the way a V7 chord is voiced in Vestapol, at 0-2-1-0 on those strings.  The I6 chord that Frank noted can be heard voicing out on the Vestapol guitar part, as 5-6-R on the top three strings, located at 3-2-0, a voicing that Memphis Minnie used in her lead guitar part on Kansas Joe's "Pile Drivin' Blues".  Having the third guitar in Vestapol also explains the occasional musical traffic jam on the bottom three strings, since sometimes both the Dropped-D guitarist and the Vestapol guitarist were playing runs down there on three strings tuned to the very same pitches.  Whew, it feels good to have that a sorted out a bit more.
All best,
Johnm

   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on March 07, 2015, 02:27:09 PM
Wax: 1942 strikes me a a bit too early for the use of magnetic tape for audio recording in the U.S. A quick survey indicates that it was a post WWII technology in the U.S. Perhaps Lomax was using discs with a higher capacity than the standard 78 commercial record format.

n.b. The discs that William Savory used in the 30's--Here's a link to an article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/arts/music/17jazz.html?pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/arts/music/17jazz.html?pagewanted=all)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jpeters609 on March 07, 2015, 02:39:32 PM
I believe Lomax was using 16-inch discs and often recording at 33.3 RPM to maximize space, resulting in longer takes (or sometimes more than one song per side) and, unfortunately, often less than ideal sound quality, as 33.3 didn't capture as much audio info as 78 RPM would.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on March 07, 2015, 05:07:32 PM
This 1942 memo by Lomax regarding John Work using "blanks" to record artists at the Fort Valley Festival would seem to support your info, Stuart and Jeff. Can't imagine he would refer to tape as "blanks". Funny, I always thought that quote in the quote generator about the chocolate tape spooling off the reels was about the '42 recordings. Sorry for the misinformation. Amazing, tho', that he chose to use disc space to record his conversation with Brown.

http://www.loc.gov/resource/afc1941035.afc1941035_ms013/?sp=1 (http://www.loc.gov/resource/afc1941035.afc1941035_ms013/?sp=1)

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on March 07, 2015, 08:46:39 PM
It was just a fact check for clarification, Wax. I wish that I could keep all of this stuff straight regarding who, what, where, when, why and how. The history the things we take for granted is interesting, to say the least. Without going too far afield, here's a link:

http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/recording.technology.history/magnetic4.html (http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/recording.technology.history/magnetic4.html)

And then there's the invention of the precursor to the fax machine by Alexander Bain in 1843...

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 08, 2015, 10:35:34 AM
Lomax used 14/16" discs for some recordings which gave more recording time. I believe they were aluminium in the 40's.
Acetate discs were used until late 40's early 50's for recording.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on March 08, 2015, 01:29:46 PM
If you look on the LOC website, you can see the recording medium Lomax and other field recorders used on different individual pieces. Several 1941 recordings are listed as being "16 inch acetate glass discs." Confusingly, a lot of acetate discs for record cutters had an aluminum core, and are referred to as "lacquer (aluminum base) on the LOC. These 12'' "lacquer" discs seem to be what Lomax was using in 1937.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 09, 2015, 10:39:42 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  The first song is John Henry Barbee's "Against My Will".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/86poI5VAit4

Well, I woke up, up in a slumber, babe, then I put on my shoes and clothes
Now, I woke up in a slumber, mama, put on my shoes and clothes
I'm gon' find pretty mama walkin' down this gravel road

She won't fix me no breakfast, now, she won't even, uh, wash no clothes
Now, now, fix no breakfast, Lord, she won't even wash me no clothes
She don't want to do nothin' but walk up and down this road

I don't want, want no woman, when she believes everybody but me
Mmm, b'lieves everybody but me
Because we'll soon be so that we, sure God, can't agree

SOLO

Now, it was late, late last night, babe, well, when everything was still
Now, now, it was late last night, mama, everything was still
I began to want to turn over and it was against my will

Now, she's gone, well, she's gone, but she'll forever be on my mind
Mmmm, forever be on my mind
She was a real good-lookin' woman, but she just wouldn't be lovin' and kind

Just two questions on "Against My Will":
   * What playing position/tuning did John Henry Barbee use to play the song?  (We're speaking of the higher, lead guitar part.)
   * Where did Barbee fret the descending line that he plays at the end of each verse?

The second song is Kid Prince Moore's "Pickin' Low Cotton, pt. 2".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/Jk56yaWH81Y

Pickin' low cotton, bendin' my back all day
Pickin' low cotton, bendin' my back all day
Then I come home, I have some half a mind to lay

Have my dinner ready, don't let my coffee be cold
Have my dinner ready, don't let my coffee be cold
Don't forget, mama, fix some my good jellyroll

SOLO

Every payday, mama, when I get my check
Every payday, mama, when I get my check
Aft' I pay your bills, I'm all nervous in dread

Mmm, Got a girl cross-town, she crocheted all the time
Got a girl cross-town, crocheted all the time
If you don't quit crochetin', mama, you sure gon' lose your mind

Mmm, went to the station, set my suitcase down
Went to the station, set my suitcase down
Blues overtaken me and the tears come rollin' down

Pickin' low cotton, eatin' out all of my shoes
Pickin' low cotton, eatin' out all of my shoes
That's the reason why I got them low-down low cotton blues

What playing position/tuning did Kid Prince Moore use to play the song?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Wednesday morning, March 11, so that plenty of people have a chance to listen to the tunes and come up with their own answers.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 09, 2015, 02:10:35 PM
Thanks for that information, Chris.  Who would have thought that what was essentially a field recording would be a trail-blazer in terms of recording technology? 
I re-listened to "I Lets My Daddy Do That" and am certain that the mystery third guitar part was played in Vestapol.  You can hear it plainly at the very beginning of the song.  The song enters on a V7 chord, in the ninth bar of the form, with the third guitar providing chordal accompaniment and the high guitar part playing.  The low lead part enters more or less on the tenth bar of the form.  For that first bar of the intro, you can hear the chordally accompanying guitar voicing a V7 chord very plainly on the interior four strings, ascending from the fifth string, voicing the chord, R-5-b7-R, which is exactly the way a V7 chord is voiced in Vestapol, at 0-2-1-0 on those strings.  The I6 chord that Frank noted can be heard voicing out on the Vestapol guitar part, as 5-6-R on the top three strings, located at 3-2-0, a voicing that Memphis Minnie used in her lead guitar part on Kansas Joe's "Pile Drivin' Blues".  Having the third guitar in Vestapol also explains the occasional musical traffic jam on the bottom three strings, since sometimes both the Dropped-D guitarist and the Vestapol guitarist were playing runs down there on three strings tuned to the very same pitches.  Whew, it feels good to have that a sorted out a bit more.
 

Thanks for figuring that out, John. A puzzler indeed!
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on March 11, 2015, 01:19:27 PM
Kid Prince Moore: E position, capo at 4th fret?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on March 11, 2015, 02:22:52 PM
Kid Moore sounds like Spanish tuning, maybe capoed one fret up.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 11, 2015, 06:20:53 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers on the Kid Prince Moore and the John Henry Barbee puzzlers?  Come one, come all.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: andrescountryblues on March 11, 2015, 07:46:36 PM
"Against My Will":

* What playing position/tuning did John Henry Barbee use to play the song?  (We're speaking of the higher, lead guitar part.)
Standard tuning capo 3rd fret "D" position.

* Where did Barbee fret the descending line that he plays at the end of each verse?
Relative to the capo:
|-------------------------------
|-3-0----------------------------
|------2-------------------------
|--------3b4-0----0-------------
|----------------2---------------
|-------------------------------

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Dom94 on March 11, 2015, 11:28:02 PM
For Me Kid Moore sounds like standard tuning, pitch low , A position . typically licks in A.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 12, 2015, 12:06:24 PM
I'll say John Henry Barbee is playing in D standard, capoed up a bit, and the descending run is str/fret:4/0>3>4>2>0;5/2>0;4/0
Kid Prince Moore plays out of A postion in standard tuning.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on March 13, 2015, 08:02:44 AM
Hmmm, I seem to the outlier on E for Kid Prince Moore.  I'll revisit this afternoon if its not too late.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 13, 2015, 08:10:31 AM
Hi all,
It looks like all the responses are in on the John Henry Barbee and Kid Prince Moore puzzlers, so here are the answers:
   * John Henry Barbee played "Against My Will" out of D position in standard tuning, as andrescountryblues and Prof Scratchy had it.  The descending run he played at the end of his verse, described as notes of the scale would be I-bVII-V-bIII-I-I, and could be played at third fret of the second string to first fret of the second string or fifth fret of the third string to second fret of the third string to bent third fret of the fourth string to open fourth string twice, with a little pause between the two low I notes
   * Kid Prince Moore played "Pickin' Low Cotton, pt.1" out of A position in standard tuning.  He has many or most of the characteristic A position sounds, such as doing a thumb wrap at the second fret of the sixth string under his IV7 (D7) chord, and doing a first fret hammer on the third string in his V7 (E7) chord.  One thing a bit unusual about Prince Kid Moore's playing here is that almost never puts the open sixth string in the bass under his E chord, choosing instead to play his bass in that chord at the second fret of the fourth string.
Thanks everyone, for participating, and I'll try to find another puzzler soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 16, 2015, 09:44:29 AM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  It involves two performances, and the first is by the Mississipi musician, Roosevelt Holts. Here is his performance of "Mean Conductor Blues":

Roosevelt Holts Mean Conductor Blues (1965) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCCBLd9vnDk#)

Well, well, well, baby, what's the matter here?
Well, well, well, what's the matter here?
Babe, I ain't got nobody feel my worried care

Well, sun gon' shine, my back door someday
Well, well, well, my back door someday
Well, the wind gon' change, blow my blues away

Well, mean conductor, won't let a poor man ride
Well, mean conductor, won't let a poor man ride
Well, mean old woman, won't treat a poor man right

Well, look-a-here, woman, what I got for you
Well, look-a-here, woman, what I got for you
Well, I done everything, poor old man can do

* What playing position/tuning did Roosevelt Holts use to play "Mean Conductor Blues"?

The second song is Joel Hopkins' "I Ain't Gonna Roll for the Big Hat Man No More".  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/Rsly0_3mGdM

Says, I ain't gonna roll for the big hat man no more
Well, I ain't gonna roll for the big hat man no more
There's a good time here, but it's better down the road, better down the road,
Good Lord, Good Lord, Lordy, Lordy, Lord

I ain't gonna tell nobody what the Santa Fe dones to me
Ain't gon' tell nobody what the Santa Fe done to me
Well, it take my rider and it set back after me
Good Lord, Good Lord, Lord, Lordy, Lord

Say, my poor Mama died in nineteen and twenty-four
Yes, my poor Mama died in nineteen and twenty-four
Sleepin' a long dream, to never speak no more
Yeeeeeeees, she leavin' in the mornin' so I can never see 'er no more

Says, I love my rider, tell the world I do
Says, I love my rider, tell the world I do, tell the world I do
Well, I hope someday that she come to love me too
Good Lord, Good Lord, Lordy, Lordy, Lord

Mmmmmmmmm, Lord, have mercy on me

If you take my rider, I won't get mad with you, won't get mad with you
Just like you takin' mine, I'll take someone's, too

Pleeeeeeease, baby, please not raise your hand
Say, please, ma'am, baby, said, please not raise your hand
'Cause, you know you leavin', you, on account of your man
Good Lord, Good Lord, Good Lord, Lordy, Lordy, Lord

Say, the blues ain't nothin' but a green man feelin' bad
Well, the blues ain't nothin' but a green man feelin' bad
You know, it must not a-been then, the worried blues I had

Gonna leave here walkin', talkin' to myself
Gonna leave here walkin', talkin' to myself
Talkin' to the woman I'm lookin' for, I don't want nobody else
Mmmmmm, Good Lord, Good Lord, Lordy, Lordy, Lord

Don't take my baby and I won't get mad with you
Don't take my baby and I won't get mad with you
Just like you taken mine, I'm gonna take someone's, too

   * What playing position/tuning did Joel Hopkins use to play "I Ain't Gonna Roll for the Big Hat Man No More'?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Wednesday morning, March 18.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 19, 2015, 03:36:44 AM
No takers yet, so time for another heroic failure to start the ball rolling. So I'm going to day Half Spanish for the first one and Vestapol for the second!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on March 19, 2015, 09:52:58 AM
I'm in the Prof Scratchy camp on I Ain't Gonna Roll for the Big Hat Man No More:
Vestapol, capo iv.  Great title by the way.  Make that capo at the 2nd fret, or tuned high.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 19, 2015, 10:26:19 AM
Vastapol for the Hopkins. 1st feels like G, not smart enough to figure is its droppedG.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 19, 2015, 03:09:04 PM
I'll second (or third or fourth) Prof Scratchy!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on March 19, 2015, 04:18:19 PM
Roosevelt Holts sounds like std tuning, G position to me...  no V below the tonic and there's a moment at about 1:50 where he plays a G7 with a B in the bass (rocks back and forth between B-flat and B) that's a cinch in std... possible but not as cool under the hand in half-spanish.

The Joel Hopkins seems at first a safe bet for something vestapol-like...  except... is it just me, or is the major third on the 3rd string notably absent from that recording? Not even sure I hear it as part of the brush... Tons of activity on the 1st an 2nd strings, and man... does that guy enjoy his cuddle time on the I chord or what?

Listening again, you can hear him arpeggiate the tuning in the first few seconds - low to high: E B E E B E

dubya tee EFF! go figure...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on March 19, 2015, 04:47:44 PM
After what Frankie said, I'm not sure what's going on with the 3rd string there in that arpeggio, doesn't quite seem right for Vestapol...  :-\
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 20, 2015, 08:42:23 AM
Hi all,
I think enough people have responded to the last puzzler that it's okay to post the answers.  Here goes:
   * Roosevelt Holts did play "Mean Conductor Blues" out of G position in standard tuning, as Phil and Frankie had it.  This was a tough identification, I think, because so much of what Holts plays, especially up the neck, comes right out of Bo Carter's bag of tricks in DGDGBE tuning.  However, he never hits the low V note in the bass that would be available if he were playing in DGDGBE tuning in the key of G.  Instead, he hits a low E note, at :55, 1:21, 1:28 and 2:01.  The time he hits the low E note at 1:21 is particularly telling, because he is up the neck rocking between a G out of the D shape and a C7, up around the 7th fret, and couldn't possibly fret the sixth string at the second fret at the same time, which is what he would have to do to get an E note if he was in DGDGBE tuning.  Also, in the passage from 1:45--1:55, he holds an F note for a G7 at the first fret of the first string while rocking between a Bb and a B on the fifth string.  In G standard, that move is right under the hand, as Frank noted, but in DGDGBE it would require holding the first fret of the first string while rocking between the third and fourth frets of the fifth string--not impossible, but durned awkward and non-intuitive. 
One thing Holts does up the neck in G that is so nifty:  In rocking between the G and C7 chord on the top three strings, Bo moves between 7-8-7 for his G chord and 9-8-6 for his C7 chord.  Holts frets the G chord as Bo did, a D-shaped 7-8-7, but for his C7, goes from 0-8-6 on the first three strings to 0-8-0, popping back and forth between the 7th of the C7 chord, Bb, at the 6th fret of the first string and the 3rd of the C7 chord, E, located at the open first string.  This moves sounds so terrific--try it out!  I'm not accustomed to hearing someone "out-clever" Bo Carter in Bo's own language, but I think Roosevelt Holts just may have done that here.  It reminds me a little bit of some of the nifty moves Ramblin' Thomas played in A, working in Lemon's language, but coming up with things Lemon never played, at least on record.
   * Joel Hopkins did play "I Ain't Gonna Roll for the Big Hat Man No More" in EBEEBE tuning as Frank pointed out--way to notice, Frank!  I can't claim to having sussed this out from the sounds of what Hopkins does in the course of his rendition.  Rather, at the very front end of the piece, before he starts playing the song, he briefly plays his open strings from the sixth to the first, and that's what he plays.  It certainly does account for his very droney, open sound and complete lack of a third in his I chord (which he never leaves).  I have never heard of anyone else using this tuning, but it would certainly make figuring out what Joel Hopkins played easy, because he free-hands the whole thing, essentially playing slide without a slide.

Thanks to all who participated in these puzzlers, which I thought were really not easy at all.  I'll try to find some more to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 20, 2015, 10:59:13 AM
Double dang. Mind you, there's no way I could have worked out the second one!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on March 21, 2015, 04:17:46 PM
I didn't type a response, but was thinking G std and then Vestapol for the second, which was wrong I can see.  Missed that double E ....not a tuning I'm familiar with, which might account for missing it.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on March 22, 2015, 08:52:38 AM
I don't think it's familiar to anyone, really...  frankly,  a tuning that consists entirely of the root and the fifth doesn't strike me as automatically sonically interesting...  Hopkins' singing and playing is interesting over and above the tuning, really. (maybe in spite of it?)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on March 22, 2015, 09:20:15 AM
I don't think it's familiar to anyone, really......  Hopkins' singing and playing is interesting over and above the tuning, really. (maybe in spite of it?)

Possibly one of the reasons he is famous and I am not?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on March 22, 2015, 10:12:45 AM
Googling, there seem to be some post war uses of the tuning by Stephen Stills (4 & 20, Carry On, and possibly Sweet Judy Blue Eyes) and reportedly by Nick Drake (which younger Weenies may be aware of?). A few others are mentioned. How any of them came upon the tuning is a mystery to me.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on March 22, 2015, 11:25:03 AM
Possibly one of the reasons he is famous and I am not?

You're probably exactly as famous as Joel Hopkins, but that's not really the point... :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 22, 2015, 02:51:09 PM
Hi all,
It occurs to me that it's worth pointing out that IDing the tuning Joel Hopkins used was not a function of recognizing the sound of the tuning as it was being played in the course of the tune, but rather, simply listening to Hopkins strumming across his open strings at the beginning of the track and remarking upon the sound of those open strings.  Everything else derives from that.  He basically gave the tuning right there.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on March 22, 2015, 02:54:30 PM
simply listening to Hopkins strumming across his open strings at the beginning of the track and remarking upon the sound of those open strings.  Everything else derives from that.  He basically gave the tuning right there.

precisely.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on March 22, 2015, 03:11:16 PM
That's why I figured Vestapol; I just wasn't sharp enough to catch the 3rd string.  No pun intended...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on March 22, 2015, 03:57:04 PM
Hi all,
It occurs to me that it's worth pointing out that IDing the tuning Joel Hopkins used was not a function of recognizing the sound of the tuning as it was being played in the course of the tune, but rather, simply listening to Hopkins strumming across his open strings at the beginning of the track and remarking upon the sound of those open strings.  Everything else derives from that.  He basically gave the tuning right there.
All best,
Johnm

I thought you made that pretty clear in your original explanation, Johnm, which makes me think you could be referring to my wondering where Stills or Drake might have learned the tuning? Are either of them known as deep listeners to extremely obscure country blues recordings? I don't really know, but from discussions I found on a guitar forum of some ilk, it is, apparently, a "known" tuning, at least by some (not me). My googling was in response to your original statement that you "have never heard of anyone else using this tuning." Just made me curious so I did a search.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 22, 2015, 04:32:01 PM
Nope, it had nothing to do with your post, Wax.  It had to do with people saying they could not have figured the song out because they had never heard of the tuning before.  Neither had I.  I just heard him play the open strings and said, "Huh, how about that?"
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on March 22, 2015, 07:05:50 PM
That gives my ears more credit then they deserve, John....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Mr.OMuck on March 23, 2015, 03:34:56 AM
Is this in the same tuning ? Popped in my head right away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mkRGF6azAA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mkRGF6azAA)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 23, 2015, 07:11:07 AM
That sounds like conventional Vestapol to me, Phil.  Reviewing Sister O. M. Terrell's titles, of her six, "Life Is A Problem" and "How Long" were in cross-note and all the others were in Vestapol.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 24, 2015, 07:15:17 AM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for folks who are interested.  The first song is Memphis Minnie's version of "Georgia Skin Blues", for which she was joined by Joe McCoy.  Here is their rendition of the song:

https://youtu.be/hhZHwaQW5FM

SOLO

The reason I like the game, the game they call Georgia Skin
The reason I like the game, the game they call Georgia Skin
Because when you fall, you can really pick out again

When you lose your money, please don't lose your mind
When you lose your money, please don't lose your mind
Because each and every gambler gets in hard luck sometime

I had a man, he gambles all the time
I had a man, he gambles all the time
He played the dice so in vain, until he like to lost his mind

Out of the games I know, give me Georgia Skin
Out of the games I know, give me Georgia Skin
Because the womens can play, where also is the men

I picked that jack of diamonds, I played 'im on down to the end
I picked that jack of diamonds, I played 'im on down to the end
That's why I say I like the game called Georgia Skin

Mmmmmm, give me Georgia Skin
Mmmmmm, give me Georgia Skin
Because the womens can play, where also is the men

SOLO

The question on "Georgia Skin Blues" is:
   * What position/tuning was each of the players using to play the song?

The second song is Buddy Moss's "Blue Shadow Falling".  Here is his performance:

Buddy Moss, Blue shadow falling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW4GKqn786k#ws)

INTRO

Blue shadow falling, and my baby going away
Blue shadow falling, and my baby going away
Well now, the blues is my companion, every night and every day

Well, please talk to me, baby, if it's on your telephone
Please talk to me, baby, if it's on your telephone
Well, let me tell you how I feel the blues today, how it feels to be alone

SOLO

Here are the questions on "Blue Shadow Falling":
   * What position/tuning did Buddy Moss use to play the song?
   * Where is he fretting the two-string harmony bend from :19--:22?
   * Where does he fret the transition into the tenth bar of the form, from 1:49--1:52?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Thursday morning, March 26.  Thanks, and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on March 27, 2015, 07:47:10 AM
Time for another embarrassing guess.  On Georgia Skin, I think one guitar is playing out of G position capoed at the 2nd fret.  Maybe in Spanish? But I'm not that conversant in that tuning.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 27, 2015, 09:07:18 AM
Not got a guitar handy but,
Minnie G standard; Joe G standard
Buddy - E standard. No guitar so no chance on the other questions.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on March 27, 2015, 12:12:17 PM
On Georgia Skin I think the rhythm guitar is playing in G position capo'd at 2 while the lead lines are played from A position both standard tuning.

The opening riff of the Buddy MOSS track does sound easily on the E string in standard but after that I'm lost.

EDITED to save some semblance of credibility coz it sure ain't Buddy Guy
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 27, 2015, 02:32:34 PM
I do believe --
Minnie: Spanish
Joe: A standard

Buddy: E standard, tuned low
on the first and third strings, third fret
and I don't have a guitar handy so I'm not figuring out that A run!

Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on March 27, 2015, 04:53:52 PM
I do believe --
Minnie: Spanish
Joe: A standard

Buddy: E standard, tuned low
on the first and third strings, third fret
and I don't have a guitar handy so I'm not figuring out that A run!

I'm with Chris - and I'll add that at 1:49, he starts with a walk up from the open fifth string:

0-2-3-4

arpeggiates the fourth string second fret, third string open and second string open (an A9 arpeggio, one could say)

While the second string is still ringing, he walks up on the fourth string:

0-1

Then strikes the open second string again, followed by the third string second fret, and a hammer from the open third string to the first fret, then strikes the first string open, anticipating the beat, and then a pinch on the open first and sixth strings.

Slick, slick, slick...

I have to say that I've used that A9 arpeggio a million times, but it NEVER would have occurred to me to put it together with the bass run up the major third of the V7 chord (the 0-1 on the fourth string under the open second string) - brilliant.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 28, 2015, 09:44:28 AM
Hi all,
It looks like all the responses are in on the Memphis Minnie/Buddy Moss puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.  For Memphis Minnie and Kansas Joe's version of "Georgia Skin Blues":
   * Minnie was playing out of Spanish tuning, either tuned a full step above Joe or capoed two frets above him, and Joe was playing out of A position in standard tuning, as Chris and Frank heard it.  Joe has a characteristic A standard sound, coming up into the second fret of his sixth string for his IV chord, D, as so many players did when working out of A position.  His V7 chord, too, has an E7 sound, not the droney sound that a V7 chord in Spanish tuning has.  I've found myself wondering in recent years if Minnie played with a flat-pick on a number of her duets with Kansas Joe.  Everything you can hear her doing her is single-string runs in the treble or brush strokes of chords in the treble.  I don't hear her maintaining any kind of time-keeping in the bass at all--not that she needed to, for Joe had the bass handled completely.  I reckon we'll never know, but I'm curious nonetheless.
  *For Buddy Moss's rendition of "Blue Shadow Falling", he was working out of E position in standard tuning, though tuned pretty darn low.  I think everyone who responded on this one had that right.  From :19--:22, Buddy bends the first and third strings at the third fret, as Chris identified it.  It's really something to have such a simple effect sound so good.  The passage from 1:49--1:52 is described so accurately in Frank's response, in the post immediately prior to this one, that rather than re-describe it here, I'll just refer you to his description of the run.  That whole passage is such an ear-catcher; Buddy is converging on the I note (E) at the second fret of the fourth string from below and above simultaneously, walking up chromatically from the B note at the second fret of the fifth string through B and C#, then up through D and D# on the fourth string until he arrives at E.  From above, he hits the open second string at the top of the A9 arpeggio, hits the A note on the third string as he passes back through B7, hammers from G to G# on the third string as he moves to resolve back to E, and finally lands the second fret E on the fourth string.  It's like a lesson in the architecture of the blues--whew!  Buddy had such a crisp touch, and his vocal instrument at this period of his life was kind of amazing.  Had he been so inclined, he could have been a great Pop Jazz singer like Billy Eckstine or Johnny Hartman or Lou Rawls.

Thanks to all who participated, and I'll try to find another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 28, 2015, 04:10:55 PM
Hi all,
I like to transcribe the lyrics of the puzzler songs, and I'm stumped on a little phrase in the tagline of the last verse of Buddy Moss's "Blue Shadow Falling".  I'd very much appreciate some fresh ears to listen to it and any help anyone could give.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on March 28, 2015, 08:25:58 PM
That's a tough one.  How about:

Let me tell you how it [feeled yesterday], how it feeled to be alone.


Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 28, 2015, 11:47:55 PM
Hi all,
I like to transcribe the lyrics of the puzzler songs, and I'm stumped on a little phrase in the tagline of the last verse of Buddy Moss's "Blue Shadow Falling".  I'd very much appreciate some fresh ears to listen to it and any help anyone could give.  Thanks!

That really is a puzzler! Maybe "how I feel blue today"?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 29, 2015, 03:11:15 AM
I hear: Let me tell you how it feels when you do it, How it feels to be alone
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on March 29, 2015, 07:17:47 AM
Something like:

Let me tell you how I feel if you're t' feel, ah, how it feels to be alone

except " t'feel, ah " sounds more like " t'feeder "  :-\
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 29, 2015, 09:30:24 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for all of the suggestions.  I just re-listened to the passage, and I think I have it:

   Well, let me tell you how I FEEL THE BLUES TODAY, how it feels to be alone

See if that is what it sounds like for you all.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 31, 2015, 10:35:00 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for any folks who might be interested.  The first song is Arthur Weston's "Stack O' Dollar".  Weston was a St. Louis musician who recorded one album for Testament which may still be available on CD.  Boy, was he good!  Here is Arthur Weston's performance of the song:

Arthur Weston - Stack O' Dollar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9qPso6FGR8#)

Stack of dollar, stack of dollar, long as I am tall, Lordy Lord
Stack of dollar, stack of dollar, long as I am tall

Be my woman, be my woman, you can have them all, Lordy Lord
Be my woman, be my woman, you can have them all

Stack of dollar, stack of dollar, take me where I'm goin', Lordy Lord
Take stacks of dollar, stacks of dollars, take me far, I'm goin'

Here's a woman, here's a woman, can I get a job wit' you, Lordy Lord
Ain't got no money, got no money, got no money, found no way to do

Take stacks of dollars, take stacks of dollars, take me where I'm goin', Lordy Lord
Take stacks of dollars, take stacks of dollars, take me where I'm goin'

I have two questions with regard to "Stack O' Dollar":
   * What position/tuning did Arthur Weston use to play "Stack O' Dollar"?
   * What possible position is eliminated as a possibility by what you can hear Weston doing from :08--:12 on the track?

The second song is Rev. Robert Wilkins' performance of "Holy Ghost Train".  Here it is:

Rev. Robert Wilkins - Holy Ghost Train (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8olIDGNb6AM#)

SOLO

REFRAIN: If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, and it just (guitar)
If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, and it just suits me
If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, never felt such a love before
And it just suits me

SOLO

Old John saw the train a-comin', and it just (guitar)
Old John saw the train a-comin', and it just suits me
Old John saw the train a-comin', got on board and never stopped runnin'
And it just suits (guitar)

REFRAIN: If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, and it just suits (guitar)
If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, and it just suits me
If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, I never felt such a love before
And it just (guitar)

Old Peter saw that train a-comin', and it just suits (guitar)
Old Peter saw that train a-comin', and it just suits me
Old Peter saw that train a-comin', he got on board and it never stopped runnin'
And it just suits (guitar)

REFRAIN: If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, and it just suits (guitar)
If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, and it just suits me
If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, I never felt such a love before
And it just (guitar)

SOLO

REFRAIN: If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, and it just suits (guitar)
If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, and it just suits me
If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, I never felt such a love before
And it just suits me

SOLO

REFRAIN: If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, and it just suits (guitar)
If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, and it just suits me
If this ain't the Holy Ghost, I don't know, I never felt such a love before
And it just suits me

SOLO

The only question re "Holy Ghost Train" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Robert Wilkins use to play "Holy Ghost Train"?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any responses until Thursday morning, April 2.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harriet on April 03, 2015, 05:28:01 AM
I have no clue on the first.

Not much of an answer but the Wilkins it sounds like vestapol to me, a similar melody to wished I was in heaven but it could be he's playing the notes in another tuning like Spanish - I cant tell - be interested in the correct answer.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on April 03, 2015, 05:39:40 AM
Cross-note, tuned down. He adjusts the 3rd string to below the 3rd of the scale.
Vastapol/F
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lyndvs on April 03, 2015, 06:07:12 AM
Arthur Weston-Crossnote.At 8-12 secs.He plucks/adjusts his fourth string open to tune it to the same note an octave higher as  his sixth string open(I`m counting sixth string as lowest and  first string as  highest treble string),it  becomes a root note -eliminates the possibility of the tune being played out of "E" position.
Wilkins sounds like Vastapol to me too.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 03, 2015, 04:54:09 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers on the Arthur Weston/Robert Wilkins puzzlers?  Come one, come all--answer both or whichever one you want.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 04, 2015, 01:24:44 AM
Yes, vestapol for the second one. But I was totally foxed by the first one. Kudos to blueshome and lyndvs !
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 04, 2015, 09:59:16 AM
Hi all,
Well, it seems as though everyone who wanted to post on the Arthur Weston/Robert Wilkins puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.  I'll go out of order:
   * Robert Wilkins' "Holy Ghost Train" was played out of Vestapol, just as Harriet had it in the first post and all of the other posters agreed.  Well done!  Roi's observation that Rev. Wilkins' guitar part is essentially playing slide without a slide is spot on, too.  There are a surprising number of tunes that could aptly be described that way--I've always put John Hurt's "Payday" in that category, and Vestapol seems to lend itself to that approach better than does Spanish tuning, though Libba Cotten's version of "Spanish Flangdang" falls squarely in that category, too.
   * Arthur Weston's "Stack of Dollar" was a subtle one, I think.  Lyndvs correctly observed that the passage from :08--:12 eliminates E position in standard tuning as a possible playing position for the song, because you can hear Arthur Weston tuning his fourth string to a I note, an octave above his sixth string.  Once E position in standard position has been eliminated from the running as a possible playing position, what you're left with as possible playing positions are those tunings in which the I note is located on the sixth, fourth and first strings, and which allow for a hammer to the major third note at the first fret of the third string, which Weston employs throughout his rendition.  (The fact that he has to hammer to get the major third note eliminates Vestapol as a possibility, because in Vestapol the third string is already tuned to the major third.)

This sort of progressive process of elimination, then, leaves two possibilities for tuning/playing position:  cross-note and EAEGBE.  The distinction between the two tunings is next to impossible to pick out in Weston's rendition because he avoids the fifth string in his guitar part, and the fifth string is where the difference between cross-note and EAEGBE tuning resides.  I listened to this song a lot, and as far as I could hear, the only time he strikes the fifth string at all is when he strums a I chord at the conclusion of his rendition, at 2:01 just as it creeps into 2:02.  When he makes that strum, I can hear a low IV note in the chord, which would be the open fifth string, were he in EAEGBE tuning, with him fretting the chord like so:
0-0-0-1-0-0.  This happens to be precisely the same fingering you would use to play a I major chord in cross-note.  Weston didn't compensate for his EAEGBE tuning by fretting the second fret of his fifth string for the final I chord, thus the IV note on the open fifth string is a non-chordal tone.

In a way, I'm straining at gnats here.  Arthur Weston does not hit the fifth string even once in the course of the body of his rendition, and for a one-chord song like his rendition of "Stack of Dollar", cross-note actually makes more sense than does the EAEGBE tuning.  Everything that is fretted in the guitar part, and it all lies on the first three strings, sits in exactly the same place in cross-note as it does in EAEGBE tuning.  So I guess the final point would be, if you wanted to figure out this song, either cross-note or EAEGBE would work and would be fretted the same for the body of the song.  In a way, what is more compelling to me is the question of what the heck Arthur Weston was doing in his right hand!  Incidentally, his CD is called "Pea Vine Whistle" and is on Testament.  I would give it a very high recommendation, and I reviewed it in the "Blues in St. Louis" thread in the Main Forum.

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzler, congratulations to Lyndvs for picking up on a very subtle distinction and I will look for some more songs to post as puzzlers soon.  Onward and upward!

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on April 04, 2015, 12:29:08 PM
the only time he strikes the fifth string at all is when he strums a I chord at the conclusion of his rendition, at 2:01 just as it creeps into 2:02.  When he makes that strum, I can hear a low IV note in the chord, which would be the open fifth string, were he in EAEGBE tuning, with him fretting the chord like so:
0-0-0-1-0-0.  This happens to be precisely the same fingering you would use to play a I major chord in cross-note.  Weston didn't compensate for his EAEGBE tuning by fretting the second fret of his fifth string for the final I chord, thus the IV note on the open fifth string is a non-chordal tone.

That is REALLY easy to miss - way to go, John!

and thanks for the reminder about Arthur Weston...  amazing..  and a sometime playing pal of Big Joe - that's exciting stuff!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 08, 2015, 01:33:50 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  It's been a while since we had a single puzzler, and I thought of someone who might be a good candidate:  Peetie Wheatstraw with his "Sleepless Night Blues".  Wheatstraw was very popular in his day and died young in a car wreck.  Vocally, especially, he was hugely influential, with a mannerism that most of the blues singers of his day worked out their own versions of.  He's relatively forgotten nowadays, probably because of a much more guitar-centric listening audience than he had when he was recording, but to be fair, his recorded repertoire can be quite repetitious at times, with a host of songs sharing the same accompaniment and melody, with only the lyrics differing.  In any event, "Sleepless Nights" is a very strong performance by Peetie Wheatstraw, and here it is:

https://youtu.be/98fWcl9LQ5o

The questions on "Sleepless Nights Blues" are"
   * What playing position/tuning did Peetie Wheatstraw use to play "Sleepless Nights Blues?"
   * Where did he fret the single string passage with which he opens the song, from :00--:07?
   * What is the chord he continually rocks to from his I chord, as at :14, and where did he fret it?

Please use only your ears and your musical instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Friday morning, April 10, so that plenty of people get an opportunity to listen to the track and come up with their own answers.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on April 09, 2015, 04:15:09 PM
How easy it is to forget the pleasure of listening to just one side of a 78 at a time!

here's the lyrics minus one phrase in the third verse

Now let me tell you I'd like to see my baby now
I said let me tell you I'd like to see my baby now
I bet i'd want to see her - hoo-mm lord you don't know how

Well I know my little woman she can't sleep at night
Hoo-hoo know my sweet woman, she can't sleep at night
Well now she got it in her mind and her man gonna treat her right

Ba-ba-baby you may look for me most any day
Baby-babay you may look for me most any day
Well bay-darling mama hoo-hoo I ain't gonna ?? it away

INST Verse

Now-how would you feel, baby, now if i come home today
Well now how would you feel, baby if i come home today
You wouldn't have no time little mama but pass the time away

Hoo-hoo look for me tomorrow I'll be home I'm  sure
Look for me tomorrow Baby, now I will be home I'm  sure
I want you to hug and kiss me baby, now when I come walkin' in your door
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 10, 2015, 08:16:28 AM
Thanks for the transcription, Gumbo.  I'm hearing a couple of things differently.

   2.3 Well, now SHE'S got it in her mind THAT her man AIN'T GON' treat her right

In 3.3, the missing portion is, I think,
   3.3 . . . , I ain't gonna STAY away

Peetie Wheatstraw sticks that intervallic "r" between "stay" and "away", so it sounds almost like "stayr away".

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on April 10, 2015, 04:37:12 PM
I agree with everything except the AIN'T in 2.3 there, Johnm. Much as it makes sense, I find it hard to imagine anything between the man and the Gon'. Was Peetie inclined to play with our expectations? I admit I'm quite taken with the idea of the woman in question lying awake because she's gon' get treated right! Call me romantic if you like!

I realised it's not just listening to one side at a time that helps us to appreciate this track. The copy used for the document CD actually jumps a few times so it's especially nice to hear this upload. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on April 10, 2015, 04:45:19 PM
Batting about .100 so far but here goes:
Quote
* What playing position/tuning did Peetie Wheatstraw use to play "Sleepless Nights Blues?"
E position Capo 2
Quote
* Where did he fret the single string passage with which he opens the song, from :00--:07?
4th string second fret to ninth fret
Quote
* What is the chord he continually rocks to from his I chord, as at :14, and where did he fret it?
You got me there.  The chords he's rocking from sounds like a first positions E shape at capo 2; the one he's rocking to maybe some form of first position B7? 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on April 10, 2015, 04:52:21 PM
OK even though I can't quite figure out the last question (which often means I'm trying to fit the playing into the wrong tuning) I'm going to hazard G position in Standard but tuned low to sound in F#.
The opening run sounds, therefore, like
4th (D) string
s5-12
12 9
8 5 3 0 (5th string) 2 (6th string) 3
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lyndvs on April 11, 2015, 03:05:24 AM
"E" POSITION ?.
SINGLE STRING PASSAGE 0-7 SECS.:4TH STRING SLIDE FROM FRET 5 TO FRET 9.THEN 4TH STRING FIFTH FRET SLIGHT BEND THEN FOURTH STRING SECOND FRET THEN FOURTH STRING OPEN.THEN SECOND STRING  2ND FRET THEN SECOND STRING OPEN .FINALLY SIXTH STRING 3RD FRET SLIGHT BEND THEN SIXTH STRING OPEN ?.
THE ROCKING CHORD-A SORT OF B 7(?) BUT FRETTED AT JUST SECOND FRET 5TH STRING AND SECOND FRET THIRD STRING ?.
Forgive me-I realise I have typed this all in capitals-I`m not shouting just had caps lock on!!.Please I hope you all don`t mind if I just leave as is rather than re type.
A great song great guitar by Peetie reminds me a little of JDShort etc..
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 11, 2015, 03:22:37 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers on the Peetie Wheatstraw "Sleepless Nights" puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 11, 2015, 04:27:43 PM
I just grabbed a guitar and quickly tried this. The pitch is F#, Eposition with a capo on second is how Im doing it. Well actually im not using a capo just playing F#/F#7 barred and rocking between that and a B barre on the second and forth frets. Or with the capo on the second fret E and A. I slid up on the 4 string for that single string line. Im not sure if he was actually playing it like that or in another tuning. But that's what I got so far with a quick listen.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on April 12, 2015, 09:03:40 AM
Cross-note.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 12, 2015, 10:21:00 AM
Hi all,
Thanks to all of you who responded.  I think this one has been up long enough and I'll post the answers.  Here they are:
   * Playing position was E position in standard tuning.  Cross-note is pretty much eliminated as a possibility by the single-note run Peetie Wheatstraw played over the V chord in his opening solo, starting at around :17.  He hammers from a IV note to a V note, repeats the V note, goes up to the bVII note and from there back to the IV note.  In E standard this series of notes is relatively easily found, since the IV note and the bVII notes are the open fifth and fourth strings, respectively, so you'd hammer from the open fifth string to the second fret of the fifth string, hit that second fret again, hit the open fourth string and go back to the open fourth string.  The same passage in cross-note is really problematic, because in cross-note you've lost the IV and V notes from open strings in the bass, since you are R-5-R ascending from from the sixth string.  In a general sort of way, E standard is much more advantageously set up for playing pentatonic blues runs descending from the root on the fourth string to the root on the open sixth string.
   * The single-string run from :00--:07 is just as Eric and Eddie had it started and Lyndvs had it from beginning to end, spot on--well done!  I found the run really ear-catching because the slide from the second fret of the fifth string to the seventh fret of the fifth string is a common move in the style, sliding from the V note up to the I note.  This is the first time I can recall hearing someone playing in E position in standard tuning slide from the I note at the second fret of the fourth string up to the V note at the ninth fret of the fourth string.  Peetie Wheatstraw negotiates the whole thing admirably, and it's especially cool because at the tail end of the introductory solo he does the more commonly encountered slide from the second fret of the fifth string to the seventh fret and makes his way down from there, sort of answering his opening idea.
   * The position that Peetie Wheatstraw rocks to from his I chord at :14 and throughout the remainder of the song in the third bar of each four-bar phrase is  2-2-2 on the top three strings.  I reckon he may have just taken his index finger up from the first fret, where it was in his E chord, slid up one fret and flattened out, doing a partial barre at the second fret and brushing those top three strings.  That position could be analyzed a number of ways:  you could call it the top of a B9 chord, though it doesn't really sound like a ninth chord to me without the third of the chord, which would live at the first fret of the fourth string, and which Peetie is certainly not playing.  You could call it an A6 chord, which is more like what it sounds like to me--as A6, the chord would voice at as R-3-6, going from the third to the first string.  Or you could call it a IIminor chord, F#minor, in which case it would voice out bIII-5-R, going from the third to the first string.  To my way of hearing it sounds more like the IV6 chord or the IIminor chord, but it doesn't really matter what you call it as long as you get that sound, which is pretty distinctive.

One point which was discussed a while ago in the thread which may be worth mentioning again is that in figuring out the position/tuning in which songs are played, it is wise not place too much store on the pitch at which a rendition sounds, since it very often does not provide useful information for determining the playing position/tuning.  Between the use of capos and/or tuning significantly high or low to match up a preferred playing position to the key the player is most comfortable singing in, the key in which a rendition ends up sounding is finally almost a happenstance.  The way I've come to look at the whole issue is that the key a rendition sounds in is the key the player wanted to sing the song in, and the playing position/tuning is what the musician wanted to use to play the song.  When you factor in the realization that tuning high or low or using a capo has no bearing on the "sound identity" of a playing position/tuning, you become all the more aware of the extent to which the key in which a rendition sounds is close to immaterial in making a determination of the playing position/tuning the player used.

Thanks to all of you who participated, and I'll try to find another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on April 12, 2015, 02:49:07 PM
Trying to work these out is really helpful for me and are kind of bonus as I work through the ear training DVD.  Worth doing, even when I don't get them right, or at all. Thanks for posting them, John.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 12, 2015, 03:26:32 PM
I'm glad you're enjoying them, Eric, and you got the Peetie Wheatstraw puzzler right, so you're moving in a good direction.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 12, 2015, 08:11:01 PM
You know there are so many great lessons available for a lot of the music I love I have recently been neglecting picking out songs by ear. These challenges will be fun and will keep my ears sharp. I will try to participate when ever I can in these. I didn't have much time trying "sleepless nights" so it will be great to actually sit down and really work at it.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lyndvs on April 13, 2015, 04:30:35 AM
That "rocking"chord really had me stumped!.John`s analysis of these songs really is an education-first class.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 14, 2015, 01:00:12 PM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for you.  The song is Walter Roland and Sonny Scott's rendition of "Frisco Blues, take one".  It's a ripping duet and Walter Roland, in the lead guitar role, does some really innovative and great-sounding moves.  Here is the duo's rendition:

Walter Roland And Sonny Scott - Frisco Blues (Take 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O4LjR14C5A#)

SOLO

I'm worried now and I won't be worried long
I'm worried now and I won't be worried long
The woman I love, Lord, she caught the Frisco and gone

SOLO

Have you ever heard that lovin' Frisco blow?
You ever heard that lovin' Frisco blow?
You ever heard that lovin' Frisco blow?
Blows just like she ain't gonna blow no more

(SPOKEN: Play the Frisco, man, play it!  See that Frisco train!)
SOLO X 3

Mmmmm, Lord have mercy on me
Mmmmm, Lord have mercy on me
I'm just worried and blue as I can be

(SPOKEN: Play the Frisco, mister!)
SOLO X 3

Here are the questions on "Frisco Blues":
   * What position/tuning are the two guitarists using to play the song?
   * Where is Walter Roland fretting what he plays over the I chord in the first four bars of his solo pass which he starts with pick-up notes at the end of the form around 2:33?
   * Describe how he fingered what you hear him playing in the passage referred to in the last question.

As always, please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers until Thursday morning, April 16, so that plenty of people have a chance to listen to the cut and come up with their own answers.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the song.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 15, 2015, 09:07:42 PM
It's the wee hours of the morning of the 16th here on the east coast of Canada so here is what I have so far:

 Walter Roland and Sonny Scott's rendition of "Frisco Blues, take one"

Seems to be in D in first position. Possible Drop D tuning on at least one guitar.

The song starts off by hitting the D7 a few times

Kind of rocking around on the D7 hitting notes on the 3rd fret on the second and first strings or
maybe the e string open sometimes.

There is a riff that goes from the D7 to the F in a D shape on the 5th and 6th frets.

Im having trouble nailing down exactly how this is played.
I have something that sounds close but I can tell it's not quite correct.

The chord progression seems to be D7 G7 D7, A/A7/A, D7 ...in a nutshell anyway haha

As far as hearing two guitars I find it hard to tell with this recording. Sounds like one may be in drop D playing basic
chord forms but with lots of low bass strings

I know you said pitch isnt really nessasary but Capo on the second fret to play along with the song this way for a pitch of E.


Here is a tab of sort of what I mean for the D7
Code: [Select]
e--2-2-2-2--2-2-3-2-
b--1-1-3-1--1-1-1-1-
g--2-2-2-2--2-2-2-2-
d--0---0-0--0---0-0-
a--0--------0-------
D--0--------0-------
It works but doesnt seem right to me.

Anyway, Im interested to see if I am close or not ;) Now time for some sleep.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lyndvs on April 16, 2015, 01:30:32 AM
Walter Roland:d position
Sonny Scott:g position-I find it hard to hear not too sure of this.
I think at 2.33 Walter is fretting at the 5th fret 1st string,sixth fret(with slight bend) second string and alternating between 7th fret  second string and 7th fret third string.I think he does this by fretting the fifth fret 1st string with his index and bending the second string 6th fret with his middle finger then just sliding his middle finger over to bar the 7th frets of the second and third string-I think he starts the move with a short slide into the 6th fret bend on the second string.
At one point i thought he may be playing 11th fret third string and 10th fret  2nd string and alternating with the second and third string at the seventh fret but gave up on this as I think he is capoed and this may be too awkward.Also I think I hear that slight bend in there.
Reminds me a little of bullfrog blues.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 16, 2015, 04:25:17 PM
Hi all,
I will be off-line until Monday evening, so that leaves plenty of times for folks to listen and respond to the Walter Roland/Sonny Scott puzzler.  I look forward to re-visiting the thread when I return.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on April 17, 2015, 04:21:33 PM
Wow this is a tricky one to pick the bones out of!

From the opening chords I think the rhythm (sonny) is played in C position with a capo on 4 if we're in concert standard tuning (we might be after all).

Walter could very well be playing out of D position, as Lyndvs and EddieD have it.

Johnm, much as you recommend that we don't focus on the sounding key (E in this case) and go for the sound of the playing position,  it seems hard to do that until I get to recognise a particular pattern (I'm beginning to spot the long A intervals for example). so if this sounds in E then I'm looking for E position, D position two frets up, C position 4 frets up etc and then either going YES! when I find it or getting stuck as it doesn't sound right, and wondering about the many possible alt tunings. I don't play other tunings much if ever so i'm limiting myself there.

the 2.33 seems to be a jump up from D position to the F at 5th fret but it's murky as pond weed at a skinny dipping party, so the fingering will have to be left foe someone else to explain!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 21, 2015, 09:16:14 AM
Hi all,
Well, it seems like as many as are going to respond on the "Frisco Blues" puzzler have responded, so I'll post the answers. 
   * Both Walter Roland and Sonny Scott played the song out of D position in standard tuning.  Sonny Scott is pretty hard to hear, but for the most part, he is playing boom-chang back-up, alternating between the open fifth string and the second fret of the sixth string for his I chord (D), and occasionally doing a little boogie run under the IV chord, G, moving from third fret of the sixth string to the second fret of the fifth string, the open fourth string, second fret of the fourth string and the open third string.  One of the really impressive things about Sonny Scott's unassuming back-up is that Walter Roland changes the phrasing of the form over the course of the rendition, and when a lead player phrases irregularly, it is the way the seconding player hears and responds to the irregularities that makes the difference in whether the duo moves smoothly through the song or has various speed bumps, stumbles or train wrecks.  Sonny Scott is flawless in his back-up, and as a result, Walter Roland sounds all that much more like an ace.
   * In the passage beginning around 2:33, for the first four bars of that pass through the form, Walter Roland moves from a D shape at the fifth fret, 5-6-5, going from the third string to the first string, down to a D at the base of the neck, 2-3-2, back up to the fifth fret, back down to the second, back up to the fifth fret, accenting it twice, then down to the second fret, but landing on a D7, 2-1-2, which he rocks rapidly into a D, 2-3-2 and back to the D7, concluding the four bars there.  EddieD and Gumbo both caught this move, in the main, well done!

The cool thing about this move is that when you take any three-note voicing of a major triad and move it up three frets, keeping the shape intact and a low root in the bass, you end up with a minor seventh chord off of that same root.  In this instance, Walter Roland is voicing his low root on the open fourth string.  His D at the base of the neck is voiced Root-5-3, moving from the third string to the first.  In moving that D shape up to the fifth fret, he winds up at frets 5-6-5, with a Dm7 chord which is voiced root on the open fourth string and then bVII-bIII-5 on the top three strings.  Rocking between a major chord and its minor seventh chord (or vice versa, as in this case) is a striking sound, and its relatively easy to achieve in such an instance because you're moving the left hand shape intact.  For an example of another playing using this device, but in another key, listen to Lil' Son Jackson's "No Money, No Love', for which he utilizes the very same concept, but working out of A position in standard tuning.
   * Walter Roland's fingering for the passage in question would require him to finger the D shape with his second or middle finger fretting the third string, his little or fourth finger fretting the second string, and his third or ring finger fretting the first string.  That arrangement leaves his index or first finger free so that when he goes to the D7 shape near the end of the passage it allows him to move really quickly from the D7 to the D and back, just by fretting the second string with his little finger and then lifting it, going back to the index finger fretting the second string.  If you listen to the rendition from the beginning to the end, Walter Roland uses this fingering and division of labor in the left hand for all of his playing over the D chord, and it allows him to move rapidly from an open second string to the first fret and the third fret, seamlessly, as well as occasionally picking up the third fret of the first string with his little finger.  It is really a slick solution to playing in the D position and figuring out a quick way to go back and forth from D to D7.

Thanks to EddieD, Lyndvs and Gumbo for participating and I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on April 21, 2015, 10:20:41 AM
Another good one, as usual, Johnm.

Just wanted to point out that Scrapper Blackwell uses this same fingering for his I chord in Back Door Blues to even more varied effect, using the index to finger the bIII on the 1st str. 1st fret as well, playing runs on the 1st and 2nd strings and going up to the 5th fret position for some riffs around that position to boot. This song was also discussed in the circle of 5ths thread because he (sometimes) substitutes a nifty walk down in 5ths for his V chord. Interestingly both Roland and Blackwell played with Josh White (answer to question in the Euroweenie quiz, BTW) but I'm not familiar enough with White's work to know if he used similar figures.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 21, 2015, 11:53:40 AM
I'm looking forward to the next one Johnm!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on April 21, 2015, 03:51:10 PM
My excuse is I was traveling, but the truth is I had a tough time with this one.  I look forward to the next one.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 22, 2015, 03:01:05 AM
Same excuse as Eric. Now back home - so no excuses for the next one.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 22, 2015, 01:47:26 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  The first song is Johnnie Head's "Fare Thee Blues, Part 1".  Here is his performance of parts 1 and 2 of the song:

https://youtu.be/770NBFt1dZU

KAZOO INTRO

When you hear me sing this song, babe, I ain't gonna be here long
Fare thee, high brown, fare thee
A-when you hear me sing this song, babe, I ain't gonna be here long
Fare thee, honey, fare thee

I'm gonna see you in the Spring, honey, when the birds begin to sing
Fare thee, high brown, fare thee
I'm gonna see you in the Fall, when you won't have no man at all
Fare thee, honey, fare thee

KAZOO SOLO

I left her standing on the hill, crying, "Daddy, I love you still."
Fare thee, high brown, fare thee
I left her standing on the hill, crying, "Daddy, I love you still."
Fare thee, honey, fare thee

I'm gonna see you, babe, way late, when your love have turned to hate
Fare thee, high brown, fare thee
I'm gonna see you, babe, way late, when your love have turned to hate
Fare thee, honey, fare thee

KAZOO SOLO

The questions on "Fare Thee Blues, Part 1" are as follows:
   * What position/tuning did Johnnie Head use to play the song?
   * What is the progression of the song, expressed in the key of the position that Johnnie Head used to play it?  Write it out in four-bar phrases if you wish.

The second song is Tallahassee Tight's "Quincey Wimmens".  The only thing I know about Tallahassee Tight in a biographical sense is that his name was evidently Louis Washington.  Here is the song:

Quincey Wimmens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajQQc0kzkMU#ws)

Now those Quincey women produces, they sure do treat you fine
I got me a good Quincey woman, she sure treats me fine
You oughta go to Quincey, big boy, and see this gal of mine

She got coal stray hair, pray it's all in mine
She got coal black hair, it's pretty as long as mine
Way you treat me, baby, I stay worried all the time

Let me get up on some high mountain, and see her from miles away
Let me get up on some tall old high mountain, see my gal from miles away
Let me hang 'round there, baby, she sure will make you pale

She got ways like a terrapin and that she 'round this town
She got ways like a terrapin, just let any woman 'round your town
And if you two-time that gal, she's sure gonna turn your damper down

She got eyes like the devils, cast in the lion's den
She got eyes like the devils, cast in the lion's den
It's gonna be a long time, baby, 'fore you see my face again

Edited 4/27 to pick up correction from Prof Scratchy

Here are the questions on "Quincey Wimmens":
   * What position/tuning did Tallahassee Tight use to play "Quincey Wimmens"?
   * Where did he fret the fill he plays from :30--:33?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Friday morning, April 24, after 8 AM your own time.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

I wanted to mention, too, for the benefit of any recent arrivals to this thread that in the very first post of the thread is a link to a post that has a complete listing of all of the songs that have been discussed in the thread, with links to each of them.  If you enjoy figuring the songs out, and there are songs we've already done that you didn't participate on, the set-up will allow you to listen to the songs, see what questions were asked, and then come up with your own answers. 

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 23, 2015, 11:25:38 AM
I don't know if I'll get a chance to try these ones Johnm. Hopefully I can get a bit of free time this evening to give them a crack. Too bad I didn't notice this last night, I had the whole night free playing guitar. I was caught up in a whole mess of Blind Blake.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on April 23, 2015, 01:46:16 PM
Thanks for the note about the link to the other posts John.  I'd not noticed that.  I've not had chance to have a look at the last few tunes posted so look forward to catching up with these.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 23, 2015, 08:01:25 PM
I have to give Slack credit for coming up with that idea of the linking list, Laurence.  I really like it, too.  It makes it so easy to find whatever song you'd like to hear or study again.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: andrescountryblues on April 24, 2015, 08:36:28 AM

The questions on "Fare Thee Blues, Part 1" are as follows:
   * What position/tuning did Johnnie Head use to play the song?

C position standard tuning

   * What is the progression of the song, expressed in the key of the position that Johnnie Head used to play it?  Write it out in four-bar phrases if you wish.

C  E7  Am  Adim 
C  C  G7  G7
C  E7  Am  Adim 
C  G7 C  C

Adim being:

-5-
-4-
-5-
-4-
---
---
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 24, 2015, 09:06:44 AM
I'd say roig and andres have it right.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 24, 2015, 12:52:05 PM
I got a few minutes last night to mess around with these but not near enough as I would have liked. So this is as far as I got with 2 listens to each song:

 "Fare Thee Blues, Part 1" are as follows:
   


* What position/tuning did Johnnie Head use to play the song?
   

standard tuning. C position


* What is the progression of the song, expressed in the key of the position that Johnnie Head used to play it? 
Write it out in four-bar phrases if you wish.

c E7 A F#dim c G C



"Quincey Wimmens":
   
* What position/tuning did Tallahassee Tight use to play "Quincey Wimmens"?
   
D position

I was way off at first...well not really Im starting to understand why the pitch doesnt matter. I was thrown off by the pitch being Eb and retuned my guitar to Eb right away. Capo first fret standard tuning in D position.

* Where did he fret the fill he plays from :30--:33?
Code: [Select]
e-----------
b--333-35-3-
g--444-44-4-
d-----------
a-----------
e-----------

just slide the 34 shape down after that

*the next few sentences was from my original post of playing in E position tuned down half a step*
as you can see I didnt finish that riff. im not even convinced of the tuning/position but this is what I got with the time I had! Also the video for Quincey Wimmens wouldnt play for me so I was going from a document CD with that song. I should get some more time this evening to mess around. I will update my post as I didn't read the other answers yet.*

Edited Quincy Wimmers***
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on April 24, 2015, 01:29:41 PM
Fare Thee Well is the only one I had time to look into, and the others have it nailed pretty well, as far as I can see.  C, standard tuning.  The chord progression is as others have said, I don't know exactly what dim chord it is, I just play the one that sounds right...Those things have never made sense to me, the way they keep changing names depending on what you want to call it...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on April 24, 2015, 02:22:50 PM
Those things have never made sense to me, the way they keep changing names depending on what you want to call it...

Well, diminished chords are an extreme example of it, but ALL chord names are essentially purely contextual...  we just get attached to certain names when they are associated with certain shapes. A chord played thusly:

x32010

might be a rootless Am7 chord in one context... or a C chord in another (again, this example is extreme). It depends on how the chord is functioning relative to the others. This usually falls into some predictable patterns, so we get used to a particular name or another. You can name a diminished chord by any of the tones in it because if you form it correctly, all four tones show up with any of the others (in this case: F-sharp, C, D-sharp, A). The lowest note in the chord played by Johnnie Head is F-sharp, so you could call it F-sharp dim, but calling it A dim would get you the same notes and chord, anyway.

Beyond this, my thoughts on this kind of nomenclature get sketchy and hare-brained, so I'll just clam up while I'm behind!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on April 24, 2015, 03:30:19 PM
On Fare Thee I got pretty much what andrescountry blues got, but a different dim chord.  I think andres is right.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 24, 2015, 04:57:35 PM
 I named the diminished chord F#dim but Adim is the same. I just named it from the top note on the 4th string which is F#. You could name it for any note in the diminished chord itself. Move it up 4 frets and it's the same chord just with the notes in a different order. Move it up 4 frets again and same thing just with the notes in different order. I also didnt put the chords in a 4 barre structure just basically the chords that are used I typed up.

 I'm going to listen to Quincy Wimmers again and see if I can figure it out more. Like I said the video isnt working for me but I have the song on a Document records CD and Im assuming it's the same one.

*I edited quincy wimmers


Waxwing told me it's actually 3 frets you move it. I had my guitar in my hands and Im counting 1, 2, 3, 4.....I was confused until I realized I was holding the F#dim chord and counting that as 1 then each move after it so I was ending up with 4. Thank you for pointing that out Waxwing I have been counting it wrong for quite a while  ;)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 25, 2015, 08:59:30 AM
Hi all,
I think all of the responses are in, so I'll post the answers to the "Fare Thee" and "Quincey Wimmens" puzzlers.
For "Fare Thee Blues, Part 1":
   * Johnnie Head did use C position in standard tuning, as I believe all who responded on that tune had it. 
   * The progression of the song, a 16-bar raggy blues is pretty much exactly as andrescountryblues had it--well done, Andres!  We can quibble about the naming of the diminished 7th chord, but as has been pointed out, it could be named by any of the notes that comprised it, and the most common convention has the chord named by its lowest-pitched note, which in this instance is the F# located at the fourth fret of the fourth string.  But since Andres gave the locations of the notes in the chord, its apparent he's talking about the same voicing of the diminished seventh chord that Johnnie Head used.  One nice touch in Johnnie Head's playing of the song is that for his E7 he always voiced the B note on the fifth string on the strong beat, so that he got a nice descending line from C in the C chord to B in the E7 to A in the A minor.  Great kazoo melody too, I've always loved that.
For "Quincey Wimmens:
   * Tallahassee Tight was working out of dropped-D tuning, although he didn't exactly know how to utilize the low D, and hardly used it.  You can hear it a few places in the rendition, at :08, :09, 1:22, 1:55 and a couple of other places.
   * The fill from :30-:33 was played exactly as Roi had it, and his theoretical assessment of it was spot on, too.  It is a common G turn-around, and in a way, only makes sense if resolved to G since the penultimate place in the walk-down, 2-1 on the third and second strings, is a D7 chord, which is a dominant seventh chord, wanting to resolve to G.  By resolving to D, he sets up a musical momentum and then squelches it, returning to where he started. 
"Quincey Wimmens" is an interesting track.  Tallahassee Tight in some ways sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing, but he plays a lot of nice ideas.  He also gets credit for one of the great similes in blues lyrics:  "She got ways like a terrapin".  Wow, how so?

Thanks for participating and I'll post another puzzler soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on April 25, 2015, 09:20:46 AM
Tallahassee Tight in some ways sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing, but he plays a lot of nice ideas. 

He definitely doesn't seem encumbered by knowledge!

He also gets credit for one of the great similes in blues lyrics:  "She got ways like a terrapin".  Wow, how so?

Actually, I was wondering if he was singing 'Terraplane'...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 25, 2015, 05:05:17 PM
I think it is 'terrapin", Frank, after re-listening many times.  Checking on Wikipedia, I found that the Terraplane was released by Hudson for the first time in 1934, the same year this song was recorded, so I suppose it's possible that if Tallahassee Tight was a "now" kind of guy, he might have picked up on that and cited it in his song.  He seems pretty Country, though.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 26, 2015, 04:06:22 PM
Hi all,
I'm having a tough time coming up with the lyrics for Tallahassee Tight's "Quincey Wimmens" in this thread, and most especially the first lines to his verses.  The performance can be found at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92354#msg92354 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92354#msg92354) , and I'd very much appreciate help with the lyrics.
all best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 26, 2015, 07:09:05 PM
Man that first line is hard to make out. Sounds like maybe it's " Had a little Quincy women, sure good baby"
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on April 26, 2015, 11:48:29 PM
"Now those Quincy women, they sure feel good, they sure do treat you fine"
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 27, 2015, 09:32:30 AM
Hi all,
I have some new puzzlers for you.  The first is "I Been Down In the Circle Before" by Sampson Pittman, whom I believe was a transplanted Mississippian living in Detroit at the time he was recorded in 1938.  He was an musical associate of Calvin Frazier, who also moved from Mississippi to Detroit.  I sure like his singing, and especially his confidential way of delivering his lyrics.  Here is the song, which despite the length of the video is really only 3:47 long:

https://youtu.be/oFQdO7qhrHk

SPOKEN: Boy, there ain't no need of tryin' to tell me nothin'!  You can't tell me nothin' 'bout the circle because, not Laconia Circle, 'cause I worked for every contractor, up and down the line.  And I know just exactly what they'll do, and how they is, see, that's why, that's why you hear me say it:  I ain't no stranger, you can't tell me nothin'.  I been down there lots of times.

I worked on the levee, long time ago
And ain't nothin' 'bout the levee camp, boys, that I don't know
REFRAIN: Partner, partner, partner, don't you think I know?
Sayin', I ain't no stranger, been down in the circle before

Now, there ain't but the one contractor in the area that I fear
He'll pull into Yard's Mill, and they don't 'low him back here
REFRAIN: Partner, partner, partner, don't you think I know?
Sayin', I ain't no stranger, I been down in the circle before

Now, there's Mr. Forrest Jones, ain't so long and tall
He killed a merchant man and he'd like to kill us all
REFRAIN: Partner, partner, partner, don't you think I know?
Sayin', I ain't no stranger, I been down in the circle before

SOLO (Spoken before solo:  Play it one time, play it!)

Now, Mr. Charley Lauren, is the mercy man
The best contractor, partner, that's up and down the line
REFRAIN: Partner, partner, partner, don't you think I know?
Well, I ain't no stranger, I been down in the circle before

Now, when you leave out take Helena, out highway 44
The first camp you get to, it is called Rainy Mole
REFRAIN: Partner, partner, partner, don't you think I know?
Says, I ain't no stranger, been down in the circle before

I ain't gonna kill a saw, I ain't gonna break down
Breakin' down wheel'll get a man all down in his back
REFRAIN: Partner, partner, partner, don't you think I know?
Says, I ain't no stranger, I been down in the circle before

Now, I have a friend in Arkansas tell me what to do
I told him to come to Arkansas, I told him, "No, no, no."
REFRAIN: Partner, partner, partner, don't you think I know?
Says, I ain't no stranger, I been down Arkansas before (spoken: Good-bye)

The questions on "I Been Down In the Circle Before" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Sampson Pittman use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret what he plays from :22--:27?

The second song is Sylvester Cotton's "Brown Skin Woman".  Cotton was another Detroit-based player we've previously looked at in this thread.  Here is "Brown Skin Woman":

Sylvester Cotton- Brown Skin Woman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XoPCgHOagc#)

My brown-skin woman, she as evil as she can be
My brown-skin woman, she evil as she can be
I don't why she gone and left me, Lord, she left me, I'm feelin' blue

I want you to tell me, woman, what you want me to do (yes)
I want you tell me, woman, what you want poor me to do (Lord have mercy over)
Says, now you left me 'round here, pretty mama, 'way down here with the brown-skin blues

I got a brown-skin woman, boy, you know she lives up on a hill (Lord have mercy)
I got a brown-skin woman, lives up on a hill
Says, I'm gon' find me a pretty woman, Lord, that know how to keep her [record?] still

SOLO (Spoken, during solo: Listen.  Yes.)

Then it's soon, old woman, guess I had better go
Well, it's soon, old woman, guess I had better go (Lord have)
Now, what would I want with stayin' 'round, woman, Lord, you don't want me here no more

Say, my brown-skin woman, Lord, she got me where I don't know what to do
Say, my brown-skin woman, Lord, she got me where I don't know what to do
I'm gon' find me another lazy brown, don't do work 'round here with you

The questions on "Brown Skin Woman" are"
   * What playing position/tuning did Sylvester Cotton use to play the song?
   * Where does he fret the bass run he plays from :27--:29?
   * Where does he fret what he plays from 2:28--2:29?

As always, please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers.  Please don't post any answers  before 8:00 AM your own time on Thursday, April 30th, so that plenty of people get to listen to the tunes before answers start being posted.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jpeters609 on April 27, 2015, 11:38:19 AM
Hi John,
Just a quick biographical note: Sampson Pittman did indeed move to Detroit from the Delta, but he was from the Arkansas side of the Mississippi River (as was Calvin Frazier).
-Jeff
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 27, 2015, 11:59:25 AM
On the Quincey Women lyrics, could the missing word in the first line of the first verse be 'produces'. That's what it sounds like to me and would indicate they come up with the goods in some kind of way. As far as the first line of the second verse is concerned, I think he just fluffs the line and sings nonsense, meaning to actually sing what he sings in the second line. Tough lyrics to decipher though, for sure.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 27, 2015, 05:53:36 PM
Thanks very much for the biographical catch on Sampson Pittman and Calvin Frazier, Jeff.  And thanks to EddieD, One-Eyed Ross and Prof Scratchy for the help with the lyrics of "Quincey Wimmens".  I do think that "produces" is the best match of the sound of the missing part of the first line of the first verse, and fits well with the sense of the second half of the line, so I will go with that.  Thanks to all for your contributions.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 27, 2015, 06:13:34 PM
Do you know if there is only one recording of Quincy Wimmers by Tallahassee Tight? I can't find much information on Tallahassee Tight but seems like he didn't record a whole lot. Is the video you posted for Quincy Wimmers the same as the Quincy Wimmers on the Document Records split album with Spark Plug Smith? For some reason I still can get that video to play. Maybe it's blocked in Canada.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 27, 2015, 06:51:31 PM
Hi Eddie,
Yes, it is the same track as on the Document CD he shares with Spark Plug Smith.  One of the other Weenies who is not from the U.S. also said he could not play this particular kind of video which seems to be generated by youtube itself--evidently there are copyright issues with play outside of the U.S., which is a bummer.  I think Tallahassee Tight is obscure enough that for most of his recorded repertoire, the youtube-generated videos are all that is available.  I know there are a couple of his tunes that are more conventional videos that would probably play anywhere, but I thought "Quincey Wimmens" was more interesting than those songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on April 28, 2015, 08:19:57 AM
I have to give Slack credit for coming up with that idea of the linking list, Laurence.  I really like it, too.  It makes it so easy to find whatever song you'd like to hear or study again.
All best,
Johnm

You came up with the list Johnm, I just cleaned up the format. ;)

Maybe there is a better way to remind folks of the index -- I'll look on the forum site and see if there is something appropriate to use.  It really is a Super Topic.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on April 28, 2015, 09:32:45 AM
Maybe there is a better way to remind folks of the index -- I'll look on the forum site and see if there is something appropriate to use. 

Maybe something like the Quick Menu widget on the left hand of the forum?

It really is a Super Topic.

Sure is!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on April 28, 2015, 09:36:38 AM
Quote
Maybe something like the Quick Menu widget on the left hand of the forum?

Hmmm, not a bad idea and at least a good fall back.  suggestions for a menu item name?  It needs to be fairly short.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harriet on April 28, 2015, 03:06:19 PM
Here's some thoughts I have:

Miller's List
Miller's Topic
Miller's Index
Miller's Puzzler
Challenge List
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on April 28, 2015, 04:02:41 PM
CB Ear-ups
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on April 28, 2015, 04:42:50 PM
The Listening Masterclass
How DID they do that?
John Miller Opens Your Ears
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 28, 2015, 04:48:14 PM
Hi Eddie,
Yes, it is the same track as on the Document CD he shares with Spark Plug Smith.  One of the other Weenies who is not from the U.S. also said he could not play this particular kind of video which seems to be generated by youtube itself--evidently there are copyright issues with play outside of the U.S., which is a bummer.  I think Tallahassee Tight is obscure enough that for most of his recorded repertoire, the youtube-generated videos are all that is available.  I know there are a couple of his tunes that are more conventional videos that would probably play anywhere, but I thought "Quincey Wimmens" was more interesting than those songs.
All best,
Johnm

Thanks for the reply Johnm. I agree Quincey Wimmers was a great choice and I enjoyed spending time listening to it and working it out.  :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on April 29, 2015, 10:01:02 AM
Quote
Maybe something like the Quick Menu widget on the left hand of the forum?

Hmmm, not a bad idea and at least a good fall back.  suggestions for a menu item name?  It needs to be fairly short.
JM's Listening Challenge
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 30, 2015, 03:01:14 AM
Missed the last few due to travels, so will venture a go at the latest two:

Samson Pittman is in A standard tuned a half step high. From 22-27: holding down an A chord he plays double stops on the 5th and 4th strings 5/0+4/2 x2, then 5/0+4/4>4/4>4/2. He repeats this pattern x3.

Sylvester Cotton in E standard capoed at 2. His bass run at 27-29 goes something like:
6/0>6/3>5/0>5/1>5/2>4/2>4/0>5/2>5/0>6/3>6/0>4/2. At 2:28 -2:29 my best guess is that he?s slightly bending the fifth string at the 5th fret and playing it against the open 6th string.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 30, 2015, 05:32:45 AM
The questions on "I Been Down In the Circle Before"
   
* What playing position/tuning did Sampson Pittman use to play the song?

A position standard tuning up half a step or capo at first fret

He plays his chords in different positions at least with the A chord


* Where did he fret what he plays from :22--:27?

I find it hard to hear but sounds like he is doing a shuffle on the A chord while hitting a high A on the E string


The questions on "Brown Skin Woman"
 

 * What playing position/tuning did Sylvester Cotton use to play the song?
   
E position Standard Tuning up 1 step or capo at second fret


* Where does he fret the bass run he plays from :27--:29?
Code: [Select]
e---------------------------
b---------------------------
g---------------------------
d-------------0-------------
a-2-----0-1-2---1-0----0----
e-0---3---------------3-3-0-

* Where does he fret what he plays from 2:28--2:29?

sort of strum keeping the fretted notes bent 1/4

Code: [Select]
e-0--0--0--
b-3b-3b-3b-
g-2b-2b-2b-
d-0-----0--
a-0-----0--
e-0--------
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 30, 2015, 05:45:42 AM
my best guess is that he?s slightly bending the fifth string at the 5th fret and playing it against the open 6th string.

That odd sound was a bit of a head scratcher eh? I was originally playing the 5th fret 5th string with the open 6th string as well and adding in the octave on the 7th fret 3rd string. But I opted for more open strings but still the same idea as this. Im very interested to see exactly what is being done here!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on April 30, 2015, 09:04:36 AM
RJ casts quite the long shadow over Samson Pittman, doesn't he? In a good way...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 30, 2015, 02:00:45 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Sampson Pittman/Sylvester Cotton puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on April 30, 2015, 03:09:32 PM
Not much to add.

Sampson Pitman A position capo'd at 1
Sylvester Cotton E position capo'd at 2

that's all I got
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 01, 2015, 11:40:02 AM
Hi all,
It appears that all of the answers to the Sampson Pittman and Sylvester Cotton puzzlers have come in, so I'll post the answers.
  For Sampson Pittman's "I Been Down In the Circle":
   * He did play the song out of A position in standard tuning as all three of you had it--well done!
   * For the passage from :22--:27, he was playing a brushed shuffle bass, starting over an A chord, in the seventh and eight bars of his for.  In the seventh bar of the form, on 1+ he brushed the open fifth string and the second fret of the fourth string, on 2+ he went from a brush of the open fifth string and fourth fret of the fourth string to a brush of the open fifth string and third fret of the fourth string, on beat 3 he played a triplet, the first and third notes of which were brush strokes of of the open fifth string and second fret of the fourth string, and the second note of which was the fifth fret of the first string.  On 4+ he played the same thing he played on beat 2.  In bar eight of the form, beat 1 was the same as beat three from the previous measure, beat 2 was the same as beats two and four of the previous measure, beat 3 was the same as beat 1 from the eighth measure, and on beat 4+ he went from a brush of the open sixth string and the fourth fret of the fifth string to a brush of the open sixth string and the third fret of the fifth string, leading right down into an E7 chord, arriving in bar nine of the form.  I think the neat thing about Sampson Pittman's playing of this fill is his chromatic movement on the fourth string (and later the fifth string) where he walks down from the fourth to the second fret via the third fret, rather than simply rocking back and forth between the second fret and the fourth fret.
As Frank noted, Pittman's accompaniment has been very strongly influenced by the playing of Robert Johnson, but in fairness to Pittman, he has a lot of nice original touches that diverge from what Robert Johnson played on his blues played out of A position.  I think Pittman's playing on the song is a good example of a player getting a lot, but not everything, from another player.  Those little differences count for a great deal, at least to me.

For Sylvester Cotton's "Brown Skin Woman":
  * He did play the song out of E position in standard tuning as you all had it--well done!
  * Sylvester Cotton played his bass run from :27 to :29 as follows.  It falls in the seventh and eighth bars of his form.  On 1+ in the seventh bar, he hits the open sixth string and goes to the third fret of the sixth string.  On beat 2, he plays a triplet walking up the fifth string from open to first fret to second fret.  On beat 3, he plays another triplet, going from the open fourth string to the first fret of the fifth string to the open fifth string, on beat 4, he plays another triplet, going from the third fret of the sixth string to the open fifth string and back to the third fret of the fifth string.  He hits the open sixth string on the downbeat of the eighth bar, concluding the run.  What a terrific run, and it's really exciting the way he snaps it off.  Eddie had this spot on, so congratulations!
  * For the passage from 2:28--2:29, in the fourth bar of the form, Sylvester Cotton hits the open sixth string on beat 1, and on beats 2, 3 and 4 brushes with his thumb the open fourth string, the open third string and the third fret of the second string, slightly bent, getting a little bit of that second string on the +s of each of those beats, picking up with his index finger.  By bending that second string just a little bit, he really gets a rasty sound,  in the way it contrasts with the unbent fourth string, played an octave lower.  Sylvester Cotton loved the sound of this fill and used it in a lot of his E position tunes.  I don't know that I've heard anyone else use it, and it has a striking sound.  It's a happy thing when such an unusual sound is achieved by use of such simple means.
There sure were a lot of strong Country Blues players living in and around Detroit and Flint in the '40s and '50s, and they are well worth seeking out, people like Sylvester Cotton, Johnny Howard, Andrew Dunham, Sampson Pittman, Calvin Frazier, Dr. Ross, and of course, John Lee Hooker.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy, EddieD and Gumbo for participating and I'll post another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on May 01, 2015, 01:20:43 PM
Thanks John! I really enjoyed this one. You picked some great spots (as always ;) ) in the songs to focus on.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 03, 2015, 09:38:25 AM
Hi all,
I've been working on the lyrics for Sampson Pittman's "Been Down In the Circle Before" and Sylvester Cotton's "Brown Skin Woman" and there are a couple of places I couldn't hear or am not sure of.  I'd appreciate correction/corroboration or addition of missing words from anyone who would like to help.  You can listen to both songs and see what I've gotten so far for lyrics at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92465#msg92465 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg92465#msg92465)  .
Thanks for any help.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on May 03, 2015, 01:33:07 PM
I've Been Down in the Circle Before

You can't tell me nothin' 'bout the circle because I've [  worked   ] on the circle, 'cause I worked for every  contractor, up and down the line.

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 03, 2015, 03:14:29 PM
Thanks for the suggestion, Ross.  I feel like I'm hearing an "l" sound at the front end of the missing word, it almost sounds like "lake", but that doesn't make any sense, of course.  "Worked" definitely makes sense.  Please give it another listen and see what you think.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 04, 2015, 03:28:25 AM
It sounds to me like 'laiked' too. But if it is, that would be pretty amazing, as it's a Yorkshire dialect word meaning to sport and play. Parlor Picker will concur that we grew up being asked: 'What's tha laikin' at', usually followed by a cuff on the ear!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 04, 2015, 01:41:41 PM
That's good, Allan.  I'll give you a sort of American equivalent.  When I was growing up, and was working on something with my dad, if I was day-dreaming or lost in thought, he'd say, "You're just sitting there with your teeth in your mouth and your mind in Arkansas."
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on May 04, 2015, 03:43:12 PM
To me, it sounds liked "worked" but kind of like "woiked" (I can't think of the region that does that, New Jersey, New York, somewhere back east).... although listening again, it does sound like "laiked".   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harriet on May 05, 2015, 04:32:35 AM
Its probably wrong but I hear:

You can't tell me nothin' 'bout the circle because NOT LINK on the circle, 'cause I worked for every  contractor, up and down the line.

meaning I interpret to be because you are not a link on the circle
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on May 05, 2015, 07:47:17 AM
I hear it as "Not" rather than "I've" as well Harriet. I still cant make out the second word. Something with an "L" sound as everyone else hears.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on May 05, 2015, 09:21:09 AM
I'm not exactly sure what the missing word is in "Circle" but I think I know what's happening there. I believe he's interrupting himself with the name of the circle.

You can't tell me nothin' 'bout the circle because... [here he interrupts himself to stress the name of it] not [it sounds like Lake something] Circle.

I hope that makes sense the way I'm trying to explain it.

Update: Pretty sure he's saying Laconia Circle there -- there's a Laconia Circle Levee.

So: You can't tell me nothin' 'bout the circle because...not Laconia Circle.

Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 05, 2015, 09:55:44 AM
Well, hats off, Chris, you got it for sure, and that is amazing!  Last night I was hearing something like "linked", as Harriet was suggesting, but "not Laconia Circle" is plain as day, once it is deciphered.  I will make the change.  That is one for the books, as far as I'm concerned--great hearing combined with good research.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harriet on May 05, 2015, 09:57:44 AM
While I was writing this post John Miller confirmed this but probably no harm in leaving a slowed down clip up in support.

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 05, 2015, 10:27:24 AM
Phew, that's a relief! Well done Chris!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 05, 2015, 01:11:17 PM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for you.  The first is Robert "Guitar" Welch's "Bad Luck Blues".  "Guitar" Welch was discovered in Angola Prison by Dr. Harry Oster at the same time that Robert Pete Williams was discovered there, I believe.  Here is the track:

Guitar Welch - Bad Luck Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9h6nBsamzM#)

INTRO

I'm a bad luck child, baby, havin' bad luck everywhere I go
I'm a bad luck child, bad luck everywhere I go
Everybody I know, mama, Lord, they drove me from their door

Bad luck and trouble, baby is my bosom friends
Bad luck and trouble, baby, is my bosom friends
Where di my bad luck leave me?  My trouble's just begin

SOLO (spoken):  Take it easy a while, man.  That's what I'm talkin' about.  Ain't it a shame?  That boy got the blues.)

Sometimes I wonder, baby, Lord, will I ever get back home?
Sometimes I wonder, baby, will I ever get back home?
You know, I been gone so long, pretty mama, Lord, I don't know my right way home

SOLO (spoken: Get it now!)

The questions on "Bad Luck Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did "Guitar" Welch use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the descending run from :20--:23?
   * Where did he fret the passage from 3:35--3:40?

The second puzzler is Frankie Lee Sims' "Married Woman Blues".  What a rocker!  Here is the track:

https://youtu.be/93plKiPxcHA

The questions on "Married Woman Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Frankie Lee Sims use to play the song?
   * Where did Frankie Lee Sims fret the bass run he plays three times consecutively from :32--:39?
   * Where did Frankie Lee fret the solo passage from 1:12--1:16?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to figure out your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on the morning of Thursday, May 7.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on May 05, 2015, 05:02:56 PM
And Happy Birthday to Robert 'Guitar' Welch. Wheresoever he may be! Born this day in 1896 according to Eric's Blues dates.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lyndvs on May 07, 2015, 01:58:19 AM
Well,here goes,I could be making more of a pig`s ear of this than I did on the Roland/Scott duet.
GUITAR WELCH:
SPANISH
descending run 20-23 secs:
1st string-3rd fret,2nd fret,open
3rd string-3rd fret slide 4th fret,open
4th string 2nd fret,open
5th string 3rd fret slight bend
3rd string open
5th string open
passage 3.35-3.40secs.
barre across strings 1, 2 & 3 at 12th fret slid down to 11 th fret then back up to 12th fret played against pulse on open 5th string.
I can`t really hear the third string ringing out in this passage so it may not be played at all?

FRANKIE LEE SIMS:
A standard.
bass run 32-39 secs.:
5th string open,3rd fret hammer on 4th fret
4th string 2nd fret played twice,4th fret
3rd string 2nd fret
4th string 4th fret, 2nd fret
3rd string 2nd fret
5th string open.

solo passage 1.12-1.16:
this is tricky  but I came up with

1string slide into 9th fret
2nd string 10th fret
1string open,5 th fret
2nd string  5th fret
1st string 5th fret
1st string open,5th fret
1st string open,5th fret
2nd string slide into 10th fret
1st string 9th fret
2nd string 10th fret
1string slide into 9th fret
2nd string  10th fret
1st string open,5th fret,8th fret slight bend .
Great tracks.Hope I`m closer than on my last attempt.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on May 07, 2015, 06:26:35 AM
"Bad Luck Blues"

* What playing position/tuning did "Guitar" Welch use to play the song?
 
A position, Standard tuning but about a 1/4 step flat give or take a bit


* Where did he fret the descending run from :20--:23?

Code: [Select]
E-----3-2-------------------
B-----2-2--5-2--------------
G-----2--------2--------2~~~
D-----2----------4-2--------
A--0-----------------3b---0-
E---------------------------

~ = let ring, b = 1/4 bend

* Where did he fret the passage from 3:35--3:40?

Code: [Select]
E--12--12--
B--14--13--
G----------
D----------
A----------
E----------

I use up strokes with my fingers for this part.
Hit the first one about 10 times and second a few less, then back to the first double stop.

"Married Woman Blues"

* What playing position/tuning did Frankie Lee Sims use to play the song?
   

A position standard tuning


* Where did Frankie Lee Sims fret the bass run he plays three times consecutively from :32--:39?

Code: [Select]
E---------------------
B---------------------
G-------------2-----2-
D--------2-4----4-2---
A--00-3b--------------
E---------------------

* Where did Frankie Lee fret the solo passage from 1:12--1:16?

Code: [Select]
E---9----------------------------9-------------9\--
B-----10-----10----10----10----10-10----10----10\--
G----------9----9-----9-----9---------9----9---9\--
D--------------------------------------------------
A--------------------------------------------------
E--------------------------------------------------
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 07, 2015, 02:56:13 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the "Guitar" Welch and Frankie Lee Sims puzzlers?  Come one, come all, and answer as many of the questions as you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on May 07, 2015, 08:45:46 PM
For Bad Luck Blues, I'll say A position, but that's based on my thinking that the :20-:23 riff sounds similar (but not exactly) to a riff in Willie Brown's Mississippi Blues, and the following turnaround sounds to me like the one in RJ's Kindhearted Woman.  So no great transcription skill on my part, just a guess based on tunes I know. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 08, 2015, 04:05:30 AM
Coming late to this one, and all the heavy lifting has been done. But on election day here, my vote goes to Lyndvs for Spanish on the Guitar Welch one, and A standard for Frankie Lee Sims. And yes, what a rocker of a tune that is! I know that most folk thing A as well for Guitar Welch, but what makes me think Spanish is that I hear a few Big Joe Williams licks in there. Anyone else hear a similarity?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on May 08, 2015, 11:05:58 AM
Listening again, it could be spanish. Im pretty confident in the notes I picked out but now I'm questioning the tuning which would change where everything is fretted. Oh well, I will leave it as is and wait for Johnm to post the answer :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 08, 2015, 12:56:53 PM
Hi all,
It looks as though probably everyone who intends to respond to the "Guitar" Welch and Frankie Lee Sims puzzlers has done so, so I'll post the answers.
For "Guitar" Welch's "Bad Luck Blues":
   * He did play the song out of Spanish tuning, as Lyndvs and Prof Scratchy had it.  Since the intervals of the open strings in Spanish are 5-R-5-R-3-5, exactly like an A chord in standard tuning fingered 0-0-2-2-2-0, the distinction between Spanish and A standard can be a tricky one.  A good way to discern the difference is to listen for the V7 chord.  In A standard, the V7 chord will be E7, which has a very distinctive sound with the third of the chord voiced at the first fret of the third string, often hammered into, etc.  The V7 chord most often played in Spanish, 0-X-0-2-1-0, has a much more drony, open sound because it has no third in it, being voiced R-X-R-5-b7-R.
   *  The fill that "Guitar" Welch played from :20-23 was played precisely as Lyndvs mapped it out--well done, Lyndvs!  Just to place it in the pulse, the third fret of the 1st string is picked on the + of beat one, followed by a triplet on beat two, going from the second fret of the first string to the open first string and a slide into the fourth fret of the third string.  Beat three similarly has a triplet, going from the open third string to the second fret fret of the fourth string followed by the open fourth string.  Beat four has a bent third fret of the fifth string on the beat resolving to the open third string on the + of beat four, and the run concludes with an open fifth string on the downbeat of the next measure.
   *  Welch's fill from 3:35--3:40 has him hitting triplets on the open third string with his thumb and brushing triplets on the first two strings, first at the twelfth fret for two beats, then at the eleventh fret for three beats, then back to the twelfth fret.  In making that move on the first two strings from the 12th to the 11th fret, Welch is effectively going from a G major chord to a G diminished chord--it sounds great, and it is easy!  I believe I have heard Big Joe Williams do this move, as Prof Scratchy noted.
For Frankie Lee Sims' "Married Woman Blues":
   *  Frankie Lee's playing position was A position in standard tuning, as everyone had it--well done!
   *  Frankie Lee's bass run in the passage from :32--39 operates like so:  On beat one he hits the third fret of the fifth string.  On beat two, he hits the second fret of the fourth string.  On 3+, he goes from the fourth fret of the fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string.  On beat four, he hits the second fret of the third string.  On 1+ of the second measure he goes from the fourth fret of the fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string.  On 2+ in the second measure he goes from the second fret of the third string to the open fifth string, letting that open fifth string sustain through beats three and four.  It is a wonderfully catchy run and very fun to play.  I should add that he occasionally intersperses a couple of index finger picks of the second fret of the third string in the course of playing the bass run.
   *  For his fill from 1:12 to 1:16, Frankie Lee plays an A chord out of a D shape up at the ninth fret and simply picks the appropriate strings to get his lick, exactly as EddieD had it--well done, Eddie!

I hope you enjoyed the songs and working on them, and thanks for participating.  I will post another puzzler soon.  The lyrics for "Married Woman Blues" are already up in Weeniepedia, by the way, and there is a fairly full "Frankie Lee Sims Lyrics" thread, if you're interested in more of his music.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on May 08, 2015, 02:11:54 PM
A good way to discern the difference is to listen for the V7 chord.  In A standard, the V7 chord will be E7, which has a very distinctive sound with the third of the chord voiced at the first fret of the third string, often hammered into, etc.  The V7 chord most often played in Spanish, 0-X-0-2-1-0, has a much more drony, open sound because it has no third in it, being voiced R-X-R-5-b7-R.

That is definitely a clincher and makes its appearance within the first 20 seconds of the song. Another thing that you can notice in this song is the movement from 0:52-0:55 on the IV chord. It's a partial barre across all but the 6th string at the fifth fret, followed by the flat III chord at the third fret:

x55555

x33333

those chords are voiced R5R35 and while that's certainly possible in standard tuning, it is far, far easier to get that in spanish since you just lay a finger across all those strings at the fret in question. Getting the 1st string to ring cleanly using that position in standard can kinda be a knuckle buster.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on May 09, 2015, 10:05:05 AM
I play in spanish tuning quite often with my resonator guitar but I haven't really ever picked out a song in spanish by ear. I learned some very good tips from this one and really enjoyed taking part as always. Also I now realize it's important to listen to the full song and not just focus entirely on the sections in the questions as I miss valuable hints from the rest of the song. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 09, 2015, 10:08:50 AM
Your last point is very well taken, Eddie.  Lots of time the licks that you're asked to identify could easily live in two or three different positions or tunings, but the sound of a piece, taken in sum, will eliminate all but one of those possibilities.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 11, 2015, 11:07:05 AM
Hi all,
I have a new set of puzzlers for you.  The first concerns J. T. Smith's "45 Blues".  Here is  the song:

http://youtu.be/ilKn2y2Beio (http://youtu.be/ilKn2y2Beio)

The questions on "45 Blues" are as follows:
   * What playing position/tuning did J. T. Smith use to play the song?
   * Where did J. T. Smith fret the opening introductory melodic movement from :00--:09?
   * What note does J. T. Smith hit on beats 2, 3, and 4 in the bass under his signature lick, in the third bar of almost all of his 4-bar phrases?

The second song is George "Big Boy" Owens' version of "Kentucky Blues".  Here is the song:

http://youtu.be/EoXROHPDLys (http://youtu.be/EoXROHPDLys)

SOLO

I'm worried, babe, darling, I'm worried in mind
I'm worried, babe, honey, I'm worried in mind

Be worried, honey, be worried all the time

What will you do when your good girl throws you down?

Gonna catch me a train, babe, gonna leave this town

Many days, I set down, babe, and cried
Many days, I set down, babe, and cried

SOLO

Says, Lord, little darling, to be by your side

SOLO

Some of these mornings, babe, and it won't be long
Some of these mornings, darling, it won't be long

You'll call my name, darling, and I'll be gone
You'll call my name, babe, and I'll be gone

SOLO

I woke up this morning, baby, feelin' bad
I woke up this morning, darlin', feelin' bad

The questions on "Kentucky Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did George Owens use to play the song?
   * Describe the progression of the song in numerical terms or the chord names, working in the position that he played the song in, and placing the chords in the bars in four-bar phrases.
   * How was George Owens fretting his IV7 chord?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM, your time, on the morning of Wednesday, May 13.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lyndvs on May 13, 2015, 03:47:26 AM
"45 Blues"
C position.
intro 0-9 secs.:
3rd string-2,3
2nd string-0,0
3rd string-3,2,0
g chord strum
6th string-3
5th string -0
6th string-3,2,1,0,3
5th string-0,2,3
4th string-0,1,2
3rd string-0
5th string-3,0
6th string-3
5th string-3
c chord strum
bass note:bit weird not sure but I think it may be an E note(open 6th string).


"Kentucky Blues"
E position.

E/E/E/E-E7/
A7/A7/E/E/
B7/B7/E/E/


I think he plays the IV7(A7) by fretting the second frets of both the fourth and second strings and letting the other strings ring open.
This song would sound great with an octave g string.

Oh well!.I tried.Another curates egg no doubt.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 13, 2015, 08:15:30 AM
I think along the same lines:
JT Smith C standard

00-09=
3/0>2>3;2/0>0;3/3>2>0;strum open 4/3/2; 6/3;5/0;6/3>2>1>0>3;5/0;6/3;5/3;4/0>1>2;3/0;5/3>0;6/3;5/3>strum partial C chord twice

what note  does he hit in the bass? A?

George Big Boy Owens E standard capo 6

I/ IV7/ I/I V7/ I/ IV7/ I/// IV7/// I/ IV7/ I/// V7///V7/// I/I V7/ I///

IV7 Chord =X02020
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on May 13, 2015, 01:55:06 PM
I don't think I will get time to participate in this one. Hopefully next one.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 14, 2015, 06:04:27 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers on the J.T. Smith and George "Big Boy" Owens puzzlers?  Come one, come all, and give it a shot.  Answer as many or as few of the questions as you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 14, 2015, 09:10:47 AM
It's been a while since I had chance to have a crack at one of these, so here's my take of 45 Blues.
C standard, (a wee bit sharp)
00:09
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-  - -  0 - - -  - 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -1- - - - - -1 1
0 2 3 - 3 2 1 0 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  0 - - - - - 0 0
- -  - -  - - - - -0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 0 1 2- - - - - -2 2
- - - - - - - - - - - - 0 - - - - - - 0 2 3 3 - - - - 3 0- -3- - -
- - -  - - - - - - - 3 - -3 2 1 0 3 - - - - - - - - - - - 3 - - - -

which is very close to Lyndvs & Prof Scratchy.

The bass note....?! may well be E.  I first thought of G, which would mean hooking the thumb over but I really can't hear it too good.

Ran out of time for George Owens.......the gong sounds for dinner and like Pavlovs dogs, I follow, slobbering all the way to the table...

Look forward to the answer.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 15, 2015, 09:17:57 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though all of the responses are in on the J. T. Smith and George Owens puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.
For J. T. Smith's "45 Blues":
   * He did play the song out of C position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!
   * His opening run was exactly as Lyndvs and Prof Scratchy had it, and quite close to what Old Man Ned had, as well.  Just to place it in the pulse, it operates like so, a 4-bar intro with pick-up notes at the front end:
   Pick-up notes start on the + of beat 3, which is an open third string.  On 4+, Smith goes from the second fret of the third string to the third fret of the third string.
  1st measure:  On 1+, he strikes the open second string twice.  On 2+, he goes from the third fret of the third string to the second fret of the third string.  On beat 3, he strikes the open third string.  On beat 4, he brushes the open fourth and third strings.
  2nd measure: On beat 1, he plays a triplet moving from the third fret of the sixth string to the open fifth string and back to the third fret of the sixth string.  On 2+, he goes from the second fret of the sixth string to the first fret of the sixth string.  On 3+, he goes from the open sixth string to the third fret of the sixth string.  On 4+, he goes from the open fifth string to the second fret of the fifth string.
  3rd measure:  On 1+, he goes from the third fret of the fifth string to the open fourth string.  On 2+, he goes from the first fret of the fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string.  On 3+, he goes from the open third string to the third fret of the fifth string.  On 4+, he goes from the open fifth string to the third fret of the sixth string. 
  4th measure:  On beat 1, he hits the third fret of the fifth string.  On beats 2, 3, and 4, he strums a C chord on the first three strings.
Congratulations to Lyndvs and Prof Scratchy for absolutely nailing this very convoluted and ornate Lemon-influenced run!
   * For beats 2, 3 and 4 under his signature lick, J. T. Smith hit the open sixth string, as Lydvs and Old Man Ned had it--well done!  Since the signature lick involved fretting the second string at the fifth fret and the first string at the third fret, neither of the most common chord-tone choices for a bass note under a C phrase, the third fret of the fifth or sixth string, were easily reachable, though I suppose he could have gotten the third fret of the sixth string with a thumb wrap.  Much easier to play the open sixth string, and it sounds fine, too.

For George "Big Boy" Owens' "Kentucky Blues":
   * His playing position was E in standard tuning, as Lyndvs and Prof Scratchy both had it--spot on!
   * Owens played a slightly different progression for his first instrumental pass through the form than he employed for his sung verses.  Once he starts singing, here is how his form worked out:
   |    E    |    E    |  E  A7  |   E7   |
   |   A7   |   A7   |  E  A7  |    E    |
   |   B7   |   B7   |  E  A7  |    E    |
The really unusual thing about George Owens' form here is the way he rocks to the IV7 chord halfway through the third bar of each of his four-bar phrases.  I don't know if I can recall another player doing that in such a consistent way.
   *  George Owens fingered his IV7 (A7) chord exactly as Lyndvs and Prof Scratchy both had it:  0-2-0-2-0 on the five highest-pitched strings.  Owens must have had fairly large or flexible hands because he played a boogie bass line under his A7 chord in the fifth and sixth bars that required him to fret the fourth fret of the fifth string while holding that A7 position.  I don't know of any way of doing that that doesn't feel pretty darned awkward and stretchy.
I have really liked George Owens' recording of "Kentucky Blues" since hearing it on the old Yazoo "Going Away Blues" anthology.  I particular admire his time, and the looseness and freedom of his treble strumming.  It's really a lot of fun to do, too.  I never registered, either, until just now when I transcribed his lyrics how unusual his vocal treatment of the song is.  He sings several one-line verses in the course of his rendition, never sings a tagline to any verse, and most often seems to adopt the same strategy that Jimmie Strothers used for his version of "Richmond Blues"--taking what would have been the tagline of one verse to start the next verse. 
Thanks to Lyndvs, Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned for their responses, which were pretty much right on target.  I will try to find some more puzzlers to post soon.
All best,
Johnm     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 18, 2015, 08:49:08 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you from Babe Stovall, a musician we haven't looked at in this thread previously.  He was from Mississippi originally, but re-located to New Orleans as a young man and spent most of the rest of his life there.  He was one of the Country Blues players (or songsters) who was recorded for the first time in the "re-discovery" period of the '60s. 
The song we'll look at is "Worried Blues".  Here is his recording of it:

https://youtu.be/e5hgFRffbac

SOLO

Goin' away, brown, Lord, to wear you off my mind
Says, I'm goin' away, brown, Lord, to wear you off my mind
Says, you keeps me worried, bothered all the time

How can I stay here, all I've got is gone?
Well, how can I stay here, all I've got is gone?
Say, you know by that, my, I can't gonna be here long

Some folks said, Lord, the worried blues ain't bad
Well, there's some folks said, Lord, the worried blues ain't bad
Says, it must not've been, brown, worried blues I had

SOLO
Says it must not've been the worried blues I had

Blues ain't nothin', good woman on your mind
Say, the blues ain't nothin', good woman on your mind
Says, it keeps you worried, bothered all the time

Late in the evening when the sun goes down
Well, it's late in the evening when the sun goes down
I'm gon take my brown, I leave this lonesome town

She don't wanta go, I'm gonna leave her here
Well, if she don't wanta go, I'm gonna leave her here
I'm gon find me a brown, Lord, in the world somewhere

SOLO
I'm gon find me a brown, Lord, in the world somewhere

I ain't never loved, Lord, three women in my life
I ain't never loved, Lord, three women in my life
Say, one my mother, sweetheart and my wife

SOLO

If you don't want me, give me your right hand
Well, if you don't want me, give me your right hand
Says, I get me a women, get you another man

The questions on "Worried Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Babe Stovall use to play the song?
   * Describe his alternating bass and how he is fretting it in the left hand at the beginning of the song, from :00--:11, where he resolves to the V7 chord?
   * Where is he fretting and playing the opening portion of his solo, from 1:05--1:11?

Please use only your ears and your instrument to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers until 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, May 20th.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on May 20, 2015, 07:13:53 AM
1)   I'm going to take a stab and say Vestapol, in D(+/-).
2)   Before I got sidetracked with other issues, I took a listen.  I know he's going back and forth between the fourth and fifth string, but I just couldn't get it right before I ran out of time...
3)   I'm guessing he went up to 14th fret on the 1st string and basically played melody - but again, ran out of time.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on May 20, 2015, 11:22:02 AM
1.) I'm hearing C standard, little sharp
2.) Under the C chord he hits the bass on the fifth string at the third fret and then plucks the open third string, then alternates to the third fret of the sixth string followed by a hammer on from the open third string to the second fret of the third string a la RGD's Candyman. In the fourth bar he changes to C7 so he hits the third fret on the third string after the C and G on the fifth and sixth strings. When he goes to the IV chord, he hits the root at the first fret of the sixth string followed by the second fret of the third string, which he pulls off to get a bit of the open third string after striking it. On the V chord, he hits the root G at the third fret of the sixth string followed by the open G on the third string before going into his turnaround.
3.) At the beginning of his solo, he's striking the open third string with his thumb and fingering the first string at the twelfth and second string at the thirteenth then moving down the neck and fretting the first string at the eighth fret and second string at the firth (sort of a partial "long A" shape at C), he then repeats the high notes before returning to the position at the fifth and seventh fret, which he subsequently drops into a C7 by moving the note on the first string down to the sixth fret.

Sorry if that was confusingly written, I need to get better at formatting tab or explaining this stuff.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on May 20, 2015, 11:35:44 AM
Hmm....I'd better get my tuner out...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on May 20, 2015, 12:17:00 PM
It was a holiday here on Monday. I was thinking today was only Tuesday. I will try to take a crack at it later.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on May 20, 2015, 03:58:53 PM
Song is in C position capo 1st fret guitar tuned kinda flat

For the C chord
Alternating on the 5th string 3rd fret, hit the 2nd string 1st fret, open 3rd string 
then hit the 5th string 3rd fret, 2nd string 1st fret, then pull off 3rd string 2nd fret to open 3rd string
then C7

The F chord sounds like hitting the 6th string 1st fret, then 2nd string first fret, then 3rd string 2nd fret
then pull off to open 3rd string

Code: [Select]
start of solo, i just put where you fret the double
stops not how many times you play each one


E--15-12-15--12-10--
B--17-13-17--13-11--
G-------------------
D-------------------
A-------------------
E-------------------
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on May 20, 2015, 06:10:09 PM
So, after getting a tuner out, I found myself almost a full tone low....which accounts for my D(+/-) remark earlier....but I still think of this as a Vestapol tuning.  It sounds almost like a banjo style roll in places, at least  to my poor twitter-pated brain.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on May 20, 2015, 08:09:09 PM
I think C position.  The first couple of measures are very close to the way I play Candyman, like lastfirstface said,  with the move to C7 using the b flat on the 3rd string.  At first, I thought vastapol, but I couldn't quite get it to work.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 21, 2015, 08:20:47 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Babe Stovall puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 21, 2015, 09:27:04 AM
I'm hearing this in C too.  Pretty much as Lastfirstface has it.  I can't tell if the bass note goes to a G or stays at the C on the 5th string on the 3rd beat though.  I tried Open D for this but it just didn't seem to work for me.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on May 21, 2015, 10:27:38 AM
Without the guitar it sounds like C.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 21, 2015, 02:46:09 PM
Hi all,
Thanks for all the responses.  I think that probably everyone who intends to respond has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.
For Babe Stovall's "Worried Blues":
   * His playing position was C in standard tuning.  Congratulations to all of you who made that identification.   
   * For the passage from :00--:11, what Babe Stovall played is very close to what Lastfirstface had, and the comparison to Rev. Davis's version of "Candyman" is an apt one.  Here's how what Babe Stovall played in the bass was fingered and what he played over the first 8 bars of his opening pass through the form.

   In the left hand, he fingered the first fret of the second string for the entire 8 bars.  He used his second finger to fret the second fret of the third string, used his little finger to fret the third fret of the third string, used his third or ring finger to fret the third fret of the fifth and sixth strings and used a thumb wrap to fret the first fret of the sixth string in the F chord.  For his first three bars, he hit the third fret of the fifth string on beat one, used his index finger to pick the first fret of the second string on the + of beat one, hit the open third string on beat two with his thumb, hit the third fret of the sixth string on beat three, picked the first fret of the second string on the + of beat three, and on beat four+ hit the second fret of the third string with his thumb and pulled off to the open third string.  So if you think of just his thumbwork in those measures the strings he's hitting on beats one--four are: fifth, third, sixth third.  The thumb is really just maintaining an alternation.  In the fourth measure, he goes to C7 in the left hand, continues to pick the first fret of the second string on the +s of beats one and three, and alternates his thumb from third fret of the fifth string to third fret of the third string to third fret of the sixth string to third fret of the third string, pulling off to the open third string. 
For measures four and five, he goes to his F chord.  In the fifth measure, he hits the open fifth string on beat one, hits the second fret of the third string pulling off to the open third string on beats 2+ and 4+, and hits the first fret of the sixth string on beat three.  He continues to hit the first fret of the second string on the +s of beats one and three.  In measure six, he hits the first fret of the sixth string on beats one and three and hits the second fret of the third string pulling off to the open third string on beats 2+ and 4+. 
For measures seven and eight, he returns to C.  In measure seven he hits the third fret of the fifth string on beat one, hits the second fret of the third string pulling off to the open third string on 2+, hits the third fret of the sixth string on beat three and the open third string on beat four.  In measure eight he alternates from the third fret of the fifth string on beats one and three to the open third string on beats two and four.
I think the way way that Babe Stovall achieves the movement and flow in these measures has both a beautiful sound and a beautiful economy in the right and left hands.

   * Babe Stovall played the following positions in the passage from 1:05--1:11.  He is brushing his open G (third string) right through this four-bar passage, and playing harmonized double stop sixths or chordlets on his first two strings, fingering 8-12 on the second and first strings respectively in the first two measures, dropping down in measure three to 5-8 on the second and first strings and returning to 8-12, and in the fourth measure going from 5-8 on the first two strings to 3-6 on the first two strings.  If we analyze what voices he is playing of a C chord in those various double stops we get this:  The open first string is a 5 note, a drone or pedal that sits underneath the whole thing.  The 8-12 double stop is 5-3, the 5-8 double stop is 3-R, and the 3-6 double stop is 9-b7 (WOW!). 
It took me a little while to hear what Babe Stovall was doing here and figure it out, and I think it is really brilliant--original and beautiful, especially ending up in that C9 double stop.  I really mean original, too.  I have never heard any other guitarist in the style utilize these double stops in this way while playing in C position in standard tuning, and I'm including Rev. Davis, Blind Blake, or anyone else you'd care to name.  The first double stop especially is a "big hand" sort of position with a four-fret stretch and is definitely not what I would think of as "intuitive".  The movement between the two lower double stops is especially pretty and sort of inevitable after the fact, meaning once you hear it, you wouldn't want it to be any other way.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the song.  I'll look for another good song to post a puzzler on soon.

All best,
Johnm   

 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on May 21, 2015, 05:38:00 PM
Babe Stovall is f.u.n.k.y.

Just to throw this out there...  this is Babe taking essentially the same lyrical theme and giving it a totally different melody and accompaniment.

http://youtu.be/2BSlpqinXxM (http://youtu.be/2BSlpqinXxM)

f.u.n.k.y!!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on May 21, 2015, 06:07:25 PM
Wow, thanks for posting frankie... such expressive singing over that driving funky accompaniment... love it.  No guitar in hand, but that sounds out of G position.  Remnants of Memphis Minnie in parts, to my ear.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on May 21, 2015, 06:26:04 PM
One of the reasons I do this is to learn.  Great song....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on May 21, 2015, 09:01:37 PM
I had not heard Babe Stovall before, and he does indeed have a great funky sound.  When I first heard Worried Blues, the banjo-like sound had me thinking: aha-he's in an open tuning; that 's why I tried vestapol.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on May 22, 2015, 07:45:25 AM
The only Babe Stovall CD I have has the version Frankie posted of Worried Blues, which is different enough that this one threw me for a loop for a second. They're both great in their own way.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 25, 2015, 09:49:09 AM
Hi all,
I have a new set of puzzlers for you, both from a musician we've not looked at here previously:  Sam Chatmon.  I think Sam is a terribly under-rated musician; he was by no means simply a lesser version of his more acclaimed brother Bo Carter.  Sam had a lot of moves that Bo never utilized, at least on his recordings, and I suspect he may have picked up some things from Eugene Powell and Hacksaw Harney.  And what a singer Sam was!  He had a voice like a bell, big and bright. 
The first song we'll look at is "Hollandale Blues", named for Sam's adoptive home of his later years.  Here it is:

http://youtu.be/L2r-bsJwPiU (http://youtu.be/L2r-bsJwPiU)

Says, I'd rather be in Hollandale, baby, I mean, any small town I know
Says, I'd rather be in Hollandale, woman, than any doggone small town I know
Said, it take the Chief Police, pretty mama, man, to make me go

Says, when you go over on Blue Front, sweet baby, and just don't find me there (Spoken: Oh, I'm bein' to where they sell all that whiskey, woman!)
Ah, when you go over on Blue Front, mama, I mean, just don't find me there
Say, you can bet your bottom dollar, I'm really countin' cross ties somewhere

Says, 61 run through Hollandale, baby, and it ain't but one doggone stop
Says, 61 run through Hollandale, sweet baby, and I swear it ain't but one stop
Say, when you go over on Blue Front, sweet baby, I mean you have to squeeze them 'til they oughta stop

Sayin', I got so doggone many women in Hollandale, 'til I don't know who I love (Spoken: Oh boy, I'm the admirer of them curly-haired women!)
I got so doggone many women in Hollandale, 'til I don't know who I love
Says, they gang around me, pretty mama, like the angels up above

Says, I'd rather be in Hollandale, baby, than any other place I know
I'd rather be in Hollandale, sweet baby, I mean, any other place I know
Well now, it take the woman I love, pretty mama, man, to make me dry just so

Well, when you come to Hollandale, baby, and don't have yourself some fun
It's just because you ain't got no, a-doggone mon'
All you got to do, have yourself a ball
Then if you got a dollar you heared all the gals squall,
"Here come that moneyman, I mean, he's dropped down in this land.
I mean, now he done come to Hollandale, pretty mama, I mean, floatin' in the plan."

Well, Hollandale is the place, pretty baby, I always long to be
I mean, Hollandale is the place, pretty mama, always long to be
Well, I could stay away from there longer but I got a cool, kind mama waitin' for me

Edited 5/29 to pick up corrections from Scott N

Here are the questions on "Hollandale Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did Sam use to play the song?
   * Where did Sam fret the chord he plays from :28--:35?
   * Where did Sam fret the positions he rocks back and forth between in the stretch from 1:37--1:49?

The second song of Sam's we'll look at is "She's My Baby".  Here it is:

http://youtu.be/Pm5ERPec2pw (http://youtu.be/Pm5ERPec2pw)

Well, my Mama says she's reckless, Daddy says she wild
Don't make no difference that's my angel child
REFRAIN: She's my baby, she's so nice and brown
Every time that woman touch me makes my love come fallin' down

Oh, she touch me in the morning, touch me at night
Time she touch me , you know I feel just right
REFRAIN: She's my baby, she's so nice and brown
Every time that woman touch me makes my love come drippin' on down

Well, now look-a-here, woman, you oughta be 'shamed
Get me my lovin', tell, I'm in blame
REFRAIN: She's my baby, you so nice and brown
Every time you touch me, man, you makes my love come easin' on down

Oh, I got up this mornin', she touched my head,
"Don't give me no breakfast, get your gown, let's go back to bed."
REFRAIN: You my baby, you so nice and brown
Every time you touch a man you make your love come slippin' on down

SOLO (Spoken: Oh, let's slip it once, boy!)

Oh, she touched me in the mornin', touched me at noon
Goin' back tonight and let her touch me 'round there soon
REFRAIN: She's my baby, she's so nice and brown
Every time that woman touch me, makes my love come slippin' on down

Here are the questions on "She's My Baby":
   * What playing position/tuning did Sam use to play the song?
   * What well-known tune supplied the melody that Sam uses to open the song?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday morning, May 27th.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy Sam's renditions.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on May 25, 2015, 12:27:52 PM
Awesome John! I love Sam Chatmon but have not worked on any of his songs yet. This should be fun.:)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on May 25, 2015, 05:26:25 PM
I agree, Sam Chatmon is great....  I can't understand why he isn't as famous as Bo, excepting that Bo's lyrics might make the difference...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on May 27, 2015, 05:38:41 AM
I love Sam Chatmon but I've never seen any of his songs in TAB books anywhere. Yes, very underrated singer and player. According to the liner notes of the album Sam Chatmon (Flyright 63) he claimed he could play in any key. "I can pick in E flat just as good as I can in B flat". And told the interviewer his brother Bo could only pick in G or E. Not sure if that's true.

I'm pretty sure the opening melody of She's my baby" is from a piano instrumental called Cow Cow Blues (Charles "Cow Cow" Davenport).
The song is in F#. I'm not sure about the position/tuning. Could possibly be tuned 1/2 step down in G position so that would make it F# position?

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on May 27, 2015, 06:30:27 AM
John has some special insight into Sam Chatmon because he got to hang out with him!  for some period of time).  John, I'm sure folks would be interested in a Sam Chatmon story or two.  Didn't Sam have extra long fingers... where some of his fingering was almost impossible for us common folk?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on May 27, 2015, 07:44:56 AM
So, here goes nothing.

Hollandale Blues - Standard tuning, played in A.  I'm hearing the chord at :28-:35 as an F shape at 5th fret.  With my ears, speakers and computer, that's about the extent of what I can say about this one.

She's My Baby - Standard tuning (half tone flat) G.  I'm not able to figure out what song he plays at the beginning - sounds familiar but....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lyndvs on May 27, 2015, 09:04:39 AM
HOLLANDALE BLUES
A STANDARD
CHORD  554X35
Sounds to me he`s playing sixth string open then fifth open and raking on a chord like this xx4545.
SHE`S MY BABY
E standard(because the intro sounds like cigarette blues i initially thought it coud be vestapol like Bo but after a bit of noodling I plumped for E).
cow cow blues?(cigarette blues)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on May 27, 2015, 09:24:47 AM
Hollandale Blues
Is played out of Spanish tuning, key of A, probably capoed second fret because of the stretch involved to play the IV chord.
The passage from :28-:35 is fretted like this:
pickup on 1st fret of 4th string, to downbeat on 2nd fret of 4th string, then strum 5th fret, 1st, 2nd and 3rd strings. Hold the 5th fret position with the pinky while the 2nd fret 4th string is held with the index finger. Also play open 5th string.
The stretch from 1:37-1:49 is fretting the 4th fret of the 5th string and 5th fret of 1st string, 3rd fret 2nd string and open 3rd and 4th strings. Then play the 3rd fret of the 5th string and the same upper four strings. The rocking is only between the third of the chord (4th fret 5th string) and the flat 3rd at the 3rd fret.

On She's My Baby, Sam plays out of the E position, but sounding in F#, so probably capoed second fret. The melody is very familiar, but I can't pull the name out of my gray cells.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 27, 2015, 09:50:36 AM
I too want to share the love for Sam Chatmon and also add what a fine beard he had.  The tunes? Well, Hollandale Blues, I'm going with A standard and fretting
5
3
5
4
5
5
around :28--:35
the positions he rocks back and forth between in the stretch from 1:37--1:49?..........I'm hearing open 6th and 5th strings around the start and he's up around the 5th fret on the top 4 strings.  I also, think I'm hearing some movement between the 5th and 6th frets of the 3rd string but can't be more specific than that at the moment.

For 'She's My Baby' I heard this originally in G a half step low, then saw the posts for E capoed up 2 frets and thought....ummmm yeah....that's a possibility....but I'm sticking with my first thoughts having revisited it and saying G.  The tune it reminds me of is Jackson Stomp by the Mississippi Mud Steppers.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on May 27, 2015, 11:58:18 AM
John, I'm sure folks would be interested in a Sam Chatmon story or two.

That's right!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on May 27, 2015, 02:38:17 PM
Damn, I forgot all about this! hahah
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on May 27, 2015, 03:23:23 PM
Here are the questions on "Hollandale Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did Sam use to play the song?
   * Where did Sam fret the positions he rocks back and forth between in the stretch from 1:37--1:49?

Limiting myself to just these two points:

A standard, and I think the rocking chord he uses is a knuckle buster I associate with Eugene Powell, although Hacksaw may have used it, too:

x45255 to x34255

and back again until you HAPPILY switch to the IV chord....

The first chord is an A7 with the C# in the bass (the major 3rd of the chord) and the second is a D9 with C natural in the bass.. As you can see, he takes the lowest two notes in the chord on the 5th and 4th strings and moves them back and forth a half-step. The notes on the top three strings stay the same.

The lowest two notes of each chord from a tri-tone, if you're interested in such things, and function, going lowest note to highest, in the A7 as the major 3rd and the flat 7th - C# and G. In the D9, those lowest notes are the flat 7th and the major 3rd - C and F#. Kinda weird how lowering the tri-tone a half step inverts their relationship to the tonic of the chord.

Or... it just sounds good, so do it. :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: andrescountryblues on May 27, 2015, 03:47:16 PM
"Hollandale Blues"
A position standard tuning.
On :28--:35 uses the XX4535 chord.
I'm not sure about 1:37--1:49... I can hear the bass moving from the major third to minor third and the root in the treble but I can't be sure if he uses X42255 and X32255 or goes to the D position and do the bass movement in the 6th string (?)
Im thinking something like:
|------5-5----------5-5--
|------5-5----------5-5--
|--------------------------
|--------------------------
|---4------------3--------
|-0------------0----------
But i feel like I'm missing something on the treble strings.

"She's My Baby" G position standard half step down.
It reminded me to "On the Wall" by Louise Johnson but I think that song is based on the already mentioned "Cow Cow Blues".
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on May 27, 2015, 07:07:16 PM
According to the liner notes of the album Sam Chatmon (Flyright 63) he claimed he could play in any key. "I can pick in E flat just as good as I can in B flat". And told the interviewer his brother Bo could only pick in G or E. Not sure if that's true.

All the guys that played in the Sheiks, even for a little while, had to play in E-flat and B-flat for sure - Sam and Bo were no exception. The complaint about Bo is definitely not true - he has a good number of songs in B-flat as well as other more typical keys/tunings. I've actually seen one video of Sam playing in B-flat - I forget which song it is, but it may have made it onto one of the more recent videos that Stefan Grossman put out.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 27, 2015, 07:15:59 PM
Yup, Sam plays "Sales Tax" and "Fishing Blues" both out of Bb on the most recent performance footage video from Stefan Grossman, "Legendary Country Blues Guitarists".  It's the one with Connie Williams and Henry Johnson and Willie Trice.  No home should be without it!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on May 27, 2015, 08:23:21 PM
The first chord is an A7 with the C# in the bass (the major 3rd of the chord) and the second is a D9 with C natural in the bass.. As you can see, he takes the lowest two notes in the chord on the 5th and 4th strings and moves them back and forth a half-step. The notes on the top three strings stay the same.

The lowest two notes of each chord from a tri-tone, if you're interested in such things, and function, going lowest note to highest, in the A7 as the major 3rd and the flat 7th - C# and G. In the D9, those lowest notes are the flat 7th and the major 3rd - C and F#. Kinda weird how lowering the tri-tone a half step inverts their relationship to the tonic of the chord.

Or... it just sounds good, so do it. :)

Right, Frank, just wanted to make the connection that this is what I was talking about in the "chordlets" discussion in Mike B's mandolin topic, that useful tritone double stop.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 28, 2015, 09:41:16 AM
Hi all,
It has been great to see all of the responses to the Sam Chatmon puzzlers, and I think enough people have responded, so I'll post the answers now.
For "Hollandale Blues":
   * Sam played the piece out of A position in standard tuning, as selected by Ross in the very first response--well done, Ross!  Listening to the V7 chord Sam plays, in particular, rules out Spanish tuning.
   * The IV7 chord Sam played from :28--:35, and throughout the song in the fifth and sixth bars of the form was fretted X-0-4-5-3-5, just as Andres had it--well done, Andres!  This voicing, which derives from a C7 shape, was Sam's IV7 chord of choice in both A position in standard tuning and in what he called "G tuning", DGDGBE.  Bo used the position, too, quite a lot, and if any of you have played Doc Watson's version of "Deep River Blues", you know that Doc used the position two frets higher than Sam played it here for his opening E7 chord.  On the fretted strings, the shape is voiced 3-b7-R-5, moving from the fourth string to the first, and because it is a closed position, it ends up being a very useful way to play a dominant seventh chord on the top four strings.
   * For the passage from 1:37--1:49, Sam fretted precisely what Frank described in his post:  a rocking from an A7 chord fretted 0-4-5-2-5-5 and voiced 5-3-b7-R-5-R, and a D9 chord, fretted 0-3-4-2-5-5 and voiced 9-b7-3-5-9-5.  Good on you, Frank, for getting this one!  A couple of things about this "rock" between the I7 and IV9 chords:
   1) As has been pointed out by Frank and Waxwing, the tritone in these chord positions, voiced on the fifth and fourth strings "flips" in terms of the voicing in the A7 chord, 3-b7 vs. the position moved down one fret, in the D9 chord, where it voices out as b7-3.  What is equally fascinating, I think, is that the all of the strings that do not change as you move between these two chord positions, the sixth, third, second and first strings also "flip" as you perform the rock downward from the I7 chord to the IV9 chord.  The E notes, voiced on the sixth and third strings, are 5 notes in the A7 chord and 9 notes in the D9 chord, and the A notes, voiced on the third and first strings, are roots in the A7 chord and 5 notes in the D9 chord.
   2) I don't think it is helpful to think of the open sixth string as switching from a 5 in the bass under the A7 chord to a 9 in the bass in the D9 chord.  Rather, it makes much more sense to think of the whole "rock" being done with a V note drone in the bass, or a V "pedal", as described in Classical music theory.  V pedals can sound pretty great, and I'd say Sam's rock in "Hollandale Blues" is a good advertisement for them.
   3) Note that the D9 chord is rootless, yet we don't miss the root at all.  The Jazz pianist Bill Evans was a big proponent of rootless voicings, claiming that we are so strongly acculturated to this music that our ears  fill in the root, even when it is omitted from a voicing.  I think he was right, and it is partially because we're not just hearing notes, we're hearing function, and the function only requires that the crucial elements be present, in this case the tritone in the IV9 chord, in order for us to hear and register the sense of the move.
   4) Just a note on the execution of this grab in the left hand:  I encourage all of you to try fingering and playing the chords as described above.  Sam had very big hands, and also tended to tune low, so he had a soft action.  For those of you with smaller hands, you may find you have to experiment a bit with the position of your wrist in the left hand in order to be able to reach these positions.  What has worked for me is to fret the fifth string with the second finger, the fourth string with the third finger, the third string with the index finger, and the first two strings with the little finger.  Normally, in doing a closed position and reaching that far towards the bass I would elevate the wrist a little bit, but for these positions, because the little finger has to fret both of the first two strings, I keep the wrist low, so the little finger can snag them both with its first knuckle.  It is a "big hand" move, however you slice it, and unless you have very large or limber hands it will probably require a good bit of practice to play consistently and cleanly.

For "She's My Baby":
   * Sam's playing position was G position in standard tuning, as identified by Ross, Harry and Old Man Ned--well done!
   * Sam's opening melodic motive does derive from "Cow Cow Blues", as Harry and Lyndvs had it.  I can not think of another Blues that inspired so many song re-workings as did "Cow Cow Blues".  "Jackson Stomp", which Old Man Ned mentioned is one, as is "Cigarette Blues", which Lyndvs mentioned.  There are also "That Lonesome Train Carried My Baby Away" and "Chevrolet".

Thanks to all for participating.  It's neat to have so much participation and people chiming in.  As Slack mentioned, I spent a good bit of time with Sam, and I will post some reminiscences, either here or in the Main Forum.  I'll look for some new puzzlers and will post them soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on May 28, 2015, 10:26:41 AM
   * Sam's opening melodic motive does derive from "Cow Cow Blues", as Harry and Lyndvs had it.  I can not think of another Blues that inspired so many song re-workings as did "Cow Cow Blues".  "Jackson Stomp", which Old Man Ned mentioned is one, as is "Cigarette Blues", which Lyndvs mentioned.  There are also "That Lonesome Train Carried My Baby Away" and "Chevrolet".

Also Ray Charles - Mess Around.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: andrescountryblues on May 28, 2015, 11:51:15 AM
Look what I found!
The man himself playing the A7, D9 rocking chords (about 2:00).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6QKyWPaqAw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6QKyWPaqAw)

And the rest of the song is pretty much like "Hollandale blues"
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on May 28, 2015, 12:48:15 PM
Look what I found!
The man himself playing the A7, D9 rocking chords (about 2:00).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6QKyWPaqAw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6QKyWPaqAw)

Well spotted!

Here's Eugene Powell using the same move at around 1:20:

http://youtu.be/SbG1lBeAZ10 (http://youtu.be/SbG1lBeAZ10)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on May 28, 2015, 01:14:36 PM
I'm obviously just taking this opportunity to post Eugene Powell videos...

here again at about 0:26:

http://youtu.be/i_STrEcv1Ig (http://youtu.be/i_STrEcv1Ig)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on May 28, 2015, 04:02:00 PM
I'm obviously just taking this opportunity to post Eugene Powell videos...

You say that like it's a bad thing....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 28, 2015, 04:54:52 PM
Hi all,
I've been transcribing the lyrics to "Hollandale Blues" and "She's My Baby" at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg93119#msg93119 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg93119#msg93119) .  I'm not at all sure I have a couple of Sam's spoken comments in "Hollandale Blues" right, and would appreciate some help with that, or any place else you think I got it wrong.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on May 29, 2015, 08:22:11 AM
Watched the Hollandale Blues vid again and noticed that his birthday is being given (grave marker) as jan. 10, 1899. From my own memory I thought is was 1897. Looked it up in various blues books and they all came up with the jan. 10, 1897 date....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on May 29, 2015, 08:29:25 AM
It wasn't uncommon for birth dates/years in those days to be confused.  My maternal grandmother, for example, had three different birth years (1907, 1909, 1911).  In my father's family, the only record of births was in my grandmother's bible, and even then, the birthdays were crossed off and changed. 

This was before required birth registration in many states, so "best guess" is sometimes all we can get, absent baptismal records of the Catholic church. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on May 29, 2015, 09:05:22 AM
I was busy to transcribe the exact lyrics of She's My Baby myself. I thought I heard;

Every time that woman takes me.....

Instead of

Every time that woman touch me....

But touch makes more sense. It's probably Sam's accent.

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 29, 2015, 10:43:40 AM
Hi all,
A couple of people have expressed interest in reminiscences on Sam Chatmon, so here goes:

I met Sam Chatmon through Nick Perls, who founded Yazoo Records and Blue Goose Records.  Nick was the first Country Blues fan I'm aware of that fully recognized what an ace musician Bo Carter was, and who did not discount Bo for recording so much party material.  This was soon after I had met Nick, around 1973 or a little later, at which point I had already recorded my first Blue Goose album.  I was very much into Bo Carter's music, to the point of obsession.  At the same time, I had some stuff wrong--I was playing all of Bo's songs that he played in DGDGBE tuning in Spanish tuning because I'd never heard of DGDGBE tuning, and it never occurred to me to use such a tuning.  Nick wanted to get me together with Sam because I played so much of Bo's repertoire and was into his music so deeply.  He played some of my recordings of Bo's material for Sam, and arranged for me to come down to New York City while Sam was there, staying with Nick.
When I met Sam, I was very excited, which is an understatement.  It was a thrill to meet the brother of one of my idols.  Sam was very cordial, and I started to play some of Bo's tunes for Sam.  I tell this to give some idea of the type of person Sam was.  After the first number he said, "You sure can pick like Bo!", after the second he said, "If I was in another room and I heard you playing, I couldn't tell if it was you or Bo.", after the third, he said, "As long as you are living, Bo Carter will not be dead.", and he wound up with, "You are Bo Carter!"  Throughout this whole time, I was escalating in excitement, but after Sam's last compliment, something switched for me.  I realized that here Sam was, a really fine musician and singer (I prefer his singing to Bo's) in his own right, over 70 years old, and I didn't want to act as though Sam had nothing to offer of his own, and was only of interest as a conduit to his late brother.  From that point onward, I just stopped talking about Bo to Sam, and indeed, except when we played music, I hardly discussed music with him, sticking more to life matters--his family, jobs that he had had, dogs he had owned, his life growing up, etc.
Sam was very grandfatherly to me, and had lots of advice and life lessons.  He told me that when I got married, I would "have a treasure", and that has pretty much turned out to be the case, though I certainly don't think of my wife as a possession.  Sam told me, "I love women, but I'm not crazy about them.", by which I took him to mean that he wouldn't make a fool of himself for anybody.  He complained about the name of the product Pepto Bismol, because he couldn't pronounce it, and said, "Why they want to call it that?"  I remember a joke he told:  A man goes into a general store and asks the clerk for some Mountain Brothers Coffee.  The clerk said, "We don't have any, but we have some Hills Brothers Coffee.", to which the man responded, "I knew it was something tall."
Sam picked with all five fingers and didn't anchor his right hand, and said Bo played the same way.  His performing repertoire was just as raunchy as Bo's, but he wasn't notably lecherous. I think his attitude, as was Bo's, probably, was "Give the people what they want."  Sam was of very temperate life habits:  he wasn't particularly interested in food, most of the time being happy with a ham sandwich.  If he took a beer, he would be likely to drink half of the bottle, leave the remainder on his night table and drink it the next day.  Sam was also extremely together in terms of things related to life skills and taking care of himself and being a responsible performer.  He carried a needle and thread in his guitar case in case he needed to do some mending, band aids, and an extra watch in case his watch broke!  I fully recognized how untogether and scattered I was by comparison.
One thing I didn't realize about Sam when I first met him was that he had close to total recall.  About six to eight months after I met him, we were booked to do a split bill concert at Harpur College in Binghamton, New York, in the winter.  I drove down from Ithaca, New York where I lived and found the student who had booked the show and asked if Sam had arrived yet.  He told me that Sam had arrived, and directed me to the dorm room where he was currently resting.  I was a little apprehensive about seeing Sam after the intervening months and wondered if he would remember me, with him being an older man.  I shouldn't have worried.  When I knocked on the dorm room, and the student opened the door, Sam looked up from the bed where he was sitting and said, "There's my partner!"  In talking with him then, I found that he not only remembered me, he remembered virtually everything we had ever said to each other, asking me about things I had not remembered discussing with him earlier.  As an example, he said, "Are you still in that band?"  I hadn't remembered mentioning to him that I was in a Bluegrass band called Country Cooking, but he remembered.  I remember a young woman asking Sam if he wanted to go on a walk, and he said, "No you go on, honey, it wouldn't be seemly for an old man like me to be seen walking with a young girl like you."  I suppose the fact that it was brutally cold outside may have been a consideration, too.

I recorded a couple of tunes with Sam, but they were never released.  We did "Twist It, Babe", and I remember when it came time for me to solo, Sam hollered, "Oh, play it, John!"  I wish I had a copy of that recording.  I do feel fortunate to have met Sam at all, but at the same time, I feel more fortunate for having made the connection to Sam the person, as opposed to Sam the musician.  It's always been that way for me when I meet older musicians--before I meet them, i'm more interested in their music, but once I meet them, the music recedes and I'm much more interested in them as people.  Maybe I just don't want to be a dopey fan.

When I read some of the quotes attributed to Sam from later in his life, I think that he possibly gauged his statements to what he perceived to be the credulity of the person he was talking to.  He would never have made the statement about Bo playing in only a couple of keys to me, because he knew that I knew it was not so.  It may be, too, that as Sam got older and more musicians died off, he was inclined to take more credit for things than he did when more of his colleagues were still living.  One thing he did say about Bo was that he went blind all at once, around 1930, and that Sam attributed it to Bo having been poisoned in some way, or cursed.  Certainly, we'll never know.

Sam had a complex, sort of "outsider's" sense of racial identity.  He sang a song that the Sheiks recorded, but which was never released, I believe, called "The Yellow Coon Has No Race", and also "I Have To Paint My Face", "to change myself from this Ethiopian race".  Where he came from, he was considered black, by white people, but he didn't feel black like darker black people, or identify with their life experience.

Well, I guess that is enough for now.  I feel very fortunate to have met Sam and been befriended by him.  He was concerned with my welfare, I believe, in a long-term sense, and tried to help and guide me as much as he could, and I appreciate his generosity in doing that, and treasure the memories I have of him and who he was and the time we spent together.

All best,
Johnm       
     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 29, 2015, 11:24:03 AM
Thanks for sharing those memories, John. He sounds like the wonderful man that he comes across as on the videos of him playing and talking. It must have quite an experience to have got to know him so closely. One piece of new information for me was the bit about Bo going blind suddenly in 1930 or thereabouts. I'd never thought of Bo as a blind musician, although I've read that when researchers found him in the 1960s he was blind and had suffered a bad stroke. I'd just assumed it was the stroke in later life that had made Bo blind. Thanks again for those reminiscences.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on May 29, 2015, 11:33:28 AM
Hi John - I too wanted to thank you for sharing your memories of Mr. Chatmon with us.

On the lyrics to Hollandale I only have a couple minor suggestions:

V2 spoken "sell" vs "set" all that whiskey

V6 - dropped "out" vs dropped "down"

V7.1 - "I always" vs just "always"


Thanks again for sharing,
                                     Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on May 29, 2015, 01:05:02 PM
Thanks for sharing those Johnm! - what terrific memories! 

Quote
...and he wound up with, "You are Bo Carter!"

That's really funny... I'm not sure I'd heard this entire sequence before.

I assume Sam was married at some point, did he ever talk about a wife?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on May 29, 2015, 01:15:02 PM
Thanks John.

Lotta cool anecdotes. Never heard of a man who carries a extra watch around. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 29, 2015, 01:58:50 PM
Just like to add my thanks too John, for sharing those memories.  It must have been wonderful to make such a connection.  Thanks again.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 29, 2015, 02:06:15 PM
Hi all,
I'm glad folks are enjoying the memories.  John D., Sam was married, at least once, and I think more than once.  And I think he was married when I knew him.
I know what you mean about not thinking of Bo as a blind player, Allan, but if Sam's recollection of the onset of Bo's blindness was correct, than Bo would have been blind during the most active period of his solo recording career.
Thanks for the lyric fix suggestions, Scott.  I took them all except for "dropped out" rather than "dropped down", just because the phrase "dropped down" had a lot of use among people of Sam's generation, whereas "dropped out" came along much later.  I think Sam was a little adenoidal, and "dropped down" ended up sounding kind of like "dropped out".  I made the other changes, thanks.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on May 29, 2015, 03:16:44 PM
Great stories John. Thanks for sharing. It was a great read this afternoon.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on May 29, 2015, 03:18:46 PM
Thanks for posting those memories, John...  so odd to hear Bo was stricken with blindness in his adulthood...  makes me think of Blind Boy Fuller in that sense.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on May 29, 2015, 04:12:44 PM
John, That's a great story.  Thanks for posting.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on May 29, 2015, 04:44:36 PM
Thank you John, very much for sharing those memories with Sam Chatmon!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on May 29, 2015, 04:51:04 PM
John, THANK YOU.  Of all the things I've read here on WeenieCampbell, I think that this last post has been the most wonderful. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on May 30, 2015, 02:33:39 PM
Some more information about Sam;

Hilarious quote from the interview;
I never changed my name either except at my birth. I was named ?Vivian? but I changed it to ?Sam,? because that was a girl?s name and I didn?t want to be named after no woman.

http://sandiegotroubadour.com/2012/09/sam-chatmon/ (http://sandiegotroubadour.com/2012/09/sam-chatmon/)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on May 30, 2015, 05:10:01 PM
Thanks also from me, John, for the stories about Sam.
I recall at Pt Townsend hearing some of that story from you, about when a man gets married, he'll have a treasure. That was before you were married, of course, and I believe I said something untowardly snarky. If you remember, that, I would like to apologize. And if you don't, well, nevermind!

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 02, 2015, 10:45:25 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  The song is Lightnin' Hopkins' "I'm A Crawling Black Snake", and here is his recording of it:

https://youtu.be/rUfQo4RwMx4

The questions on "I'm A Crawling Black Snake" are as follows:

   * What playing position/tuning did Lightnin' use to play the song?
   * Where does he fret the run that he plays from :04--:08?
   * Where does he fret the chordal position he plays from :28--:34?
   * Where does he fret the run he plays from :53--:56?
   * Where does he fret the chordal position he plays from 1:21--1:24?
   * How was it possible for someone to be as cool as Lightnin' Hopkins?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before Thursday, June 4 at 8:00 AM in your own time zone.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy Lightnin's song and his performance.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Chezztone on June 04, 2015, 09:31:23 AM
Great sound! Seems to work for me in Vestapol, tuned low to match the recording. The runs work on the first and third frets and open strings. For the chord at .28 slide thumb to 5th fret for bass notes, first finger at same fret for high notes, third finger grabs the 7th fret for higher note. That cool chord at 1:21 is 6th fret third string, 8th fret second string, 7th fret first string. To be as cool as Lightnin Hopkins, get a nice suit and tie, a good haircut (skip the dark glasses, those have been co-opted by a certain movie), and learn to play and sing the blues in a commanding yet laid-back manner.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on June 04, 2015, 10:06:12 AM
I didn't figure out all the runs and chords, but it sounds to me like Lightnin' is playing out of dropped D and his G chord is 5-x-x-4-3-5 low to high. Not sure he really bothers with the B note on the third string.

As far as being cool, it's 30% voice, 40% attitude and 30% the sunglasses. I agree with Chezztone that the glasses have become a clich?, but Lightnin' looks MUCH better with them.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on June 04, 2015, 10:45:58 AM
I was zero for two last time, but I'm still trying!

Lightnin' Hopkins Crawlin Black Snake
Cross Note tuning (E B E G B E) tuned low - I didn't check to what note.
The run from :04 to :08 is like this:
E|0 3 0 2 0--------------------------
B|---------3 0 2 0-------------------
G|-----------------2 0 2 0-----------
E|-------------------------0---0 3 0
B|---------------------------3-------
E|-----------------------------------0

From :28 to :34
              E|-7-
              B|-5--
              G|-x-
              E|-0 or x-
              B|-5-
(slide up to) E| 5

From :53 to :56
E|0 2 3 -----------
B|------2 0--------
G|----------0------
E|------------0-0--
B|-------------2---
E|----------------0

From 1:21 to 1:24
E|-7
B|-8
G|-7
E|-x
B|-x
E|-0

We only wish we knew how he is so cool!

Dave

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 04, 2015, 12:06:05 PM
I'm going to go for dropped D, tuned a half step down. I agree with Banjochris on how he plays the IV chord. The opening run is quite hard to capture at the speed he plays it, but I think he starts playing the notes of a G7 on the top two strings, then moving to notes found in a C chord before going back to the dropped D note. Same approach to the run at :53 onwards, except  he puts in a slightly sustained open B note on the second string. From 1;21 to 1;24 the chord is, I think, a D chord moved up three frets and bent slightly.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 04, 2015, 01:37:49 PM
Unfortunately had very limited time too listen too this so will only answer the first and last questions.  For the playing position/tuning did Lightnin' use to play the song I'm in agreement with Banjo Chris and Prof Scratchy, it sounds like Dropped D tuning to me.

How was it possible for someone to be as cool as Lightnin' Hopkins?  I think it's impossible for folk like us to say.  Would Lightin' know how he was so cool?  He just was.  I think he was born cool and didn't have to do anything else except be who he was and he made a pretty good job of that.  Not sure a suit and smart haircut will cut it. I recall a photo of Lightin' in a lemon V neck jumper that I wouldn't have been seen dead in, but as looked at the photo, I thought, yeah, he looks pretty cool in that!


Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Chezztone on June 04, 2015, 03:51:08 PM
Wait a minute -- Hopkins wasn't born cool any more than he was born playing guitar. Being cool is something cool people work at, as he obviously did. Especially if you're a performer (in which case it's your job to be cool) you have to carefully choose your clothes, words, movements etc. -- and musical sounds of course -- until they become so natural that noncool people think you were born that way. Saying "I guess I wasn't born cool so I don't have to try," or what seems like the opposite but amounts to the same result, "Maybe I was born cool so I'll just wear what I happen to be wearing even though I just came in from gardening," are both cop-outs. There are various ways to be cool. But there are many more ways to be uncool! Copying Hopkins' style might not get you to full coolness but it'd probably be a step in the right direction.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on June 04, 2015, 03:57:49 PM
   * How was it possible for someone to be as cool as Lightnin' Hopkins?

How was it possible? It was fully IMpossible and IMplausible. Lightnin' is a fluke of nature - his very being folded up time and space into concentric folds and literally DREW coolness (ashe, if you will) out of the cavernous depths of the past and the shadowy, unknowable future. Doing so effectively
Just had to get that off my chest.

Dropped D - yes.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on June 04, 2015, 07:33:47 PM
(skip the dark glasses, those have been co-opted by a certain movie)

yeah but... yeah but...  the hook! with muddy's band!

the rest of the movie just kinda is what it is...  but the hook!!! and big walter!!!

http://youtu.be/HnKfdDkbMno (http://youtu.be/HnKfdDkbMno)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on June 04, 2015, 07:47:32 PM
Lightnin' cool? Nah. Lightnin' was hot! That's why he had to wear those shades, so his glare didn't burn women up. He was so hot when he left Texas on tour the average temperature of the state dropped 10 degrees. He could boil water just by hammerin' on the 1st fret of the 3rd string, without ever pluckin' it. Cool is how guitarists try to appear around other guitarists. Lightnin' never thought about cool. He was a singer, he sang to the women with a simmer, 'cause he knew they want it hot, not cool. Lightnin was the heat risin' in waves off the Permian Basin when the sun is straight overhead. Lighnin' was the gas burnin' off the refinery stacks. Lighnin' was Lightnin'. Who's sayin' Lightnin wasn't hot?

Heh heh, couldn't resist a little hyperbole of my own.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 05, 2015, 09:00:03 AM
Hi all,
I think as many answers are in as we're likely to get, so here are the answers to the "I'm A Crawling Black Snake" puzzler:
   * Lightnin' played the song out of dropped D tuning, tuned a little low.  Congratulations to those of you who made that identification.
   * Lightnin' played the run from :04--:08 as follows:  He hit a pick-up note at the third fret of the second string then landed on his downbeat on the first fret of the first string, going from there to a rhythmically herky-jerky move from the third fret of the second string to the open first string and back to the third fret of the second string, resolving down to first fret of the second string, echoing the herky-jerky rhythm as he went from the second fret of the third string to the open second string and back to the second fret of the third string, resolving down to the open third string, once again echoing the herky-jerky rhythm, going from the third fret of the fourth string to the open third string and back to the third fret of the fourth string, resolving down to the open fourth string, continuing down to the third fret of the fifth string, returning to the open fourth string, bending the fourth string at the third fret, returning to the open fourth string and concluding the run with an octave jump down to the open sixth string.  Whew!
A couple of things about this run:
   1) It lays out beautifully in terms of the execution in the right hand.  Every time Lightnin' does the herky-jerky rhythm, he goes from a fretted lower-pitched string to the the next higher-pitched string open and returns to the fretted lower string.  The string crossing involved in playing the run makes for a less fluid articulation than he would have gotten by playing the same notes all on the same string, and also allows the open strings in the run to sustain across the riff for an instant, making an eerie sort of sound.
   2) If you look at the notes of the open strings he plays in the run relative to the key that he's playing in, you see what a peculiarly colored set of notes they are.  They are the open first string, E, a II note in D, the open second string, B, a VI note in D, the open third string, G, a IV note in D, and finally the open fourth and sixth strings, both D, the I note in D.  So it is that the run emphasizes oddly-colored notes, II and VI, not normally played or sought out in Country Blues runs, and also not notes in the so-called "Blues Scale", I-bIII-IV-V-bVII.  The run, in fact, ends up having a very strong sound of the Dorian mode, which is what you get if you take the notes of a C major scale and run them from D to D, with D as the key center.  Dorian is the II mode, and that is what Lightnin' plays this run in, hitting every note of that scale in the course of it.  I don't think Lightnin' played a lot in the Dorian mode, not nearly as much as did Robert Pete Williams, but I think this song is an instance of the way the notes sat in the tuning and position "giving" Lightnin' the sound.
   3)  A note about Lightnin's time in this run, and throughout this rendition.  He's playing with what you might think of as "tempo dynamics", stretching and compressing the pulse to suit his musical ends.  It's not a treatment of time you encounter all that often in this music, especially to the degree that Lightnin' does it here, but it's good to be reminded that time is, in fact, a fluid commodity, especially in music.  I think the music's common social function of serving as an accompaniment for dancing schooled most of the musicians playing in the style of the necessity of maintaining a strong, regularly felt rhythmic pulse.  It's interesting though, that two other musicians who share Lightnin's predilection for "tempo dynamics" are Texans, too:  Blind Lemon Jefferson (of course) and Ornette Coleman.
   * The IV chord that Lightnin' plays from :28--:34 is a G add 9, fingered 5-X-0-0-3-5, which is what Chris had.  As Chris noted, the third string is most often fretted at the fourth fret in this chord, but Lightnin' left it out, going for the open third string and a dronier sound, with the chord having no third.  He really emphasizes the sixth, second and first strings on this chord.
   * Lightnin's run from :53--:56 utilizes many of the same notes as the run from :04--:08, but if anything it is even odder and more disjunct rhythmically.  He goes from the third fret of the second string to the open first string, from there to the first fret of the first string, skips down to the open second string, continues down to the second fret of the third string, pulls off from the third fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string, gets the second fret of the fifth string, returns to the open fourth string and drops down to the open sixth string.
   * Lightnin's chordal position from 1:21--1:24 derives from the chordal position he starts to play at 1:16, a D chord, 2-3-2 on the top three strings, in preparation for his solo.  Incidentally, this move is what most tellingly identifies the tuning as dropped-D tuning.  At 1:21, he slides that D shape, intact, up three frets to 5-6-5 on the top three strings, giving himself a Dm7 chord and a beautiful dark sound to start his solo.  This move was utilized a lot by Gabriel Brown in dropped D, and I think Brown may have served as Lightnin's, and by extension, Carolina Slim's, model for a lot of their playing in dropped-D.
   * I don't have the vaguest idea of how it was possible for anyone to be as cool as Lightnin' was.

Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoyed this song and Lightnin's rendition of it as much as I do.  I'll look for another interesting puzzler to post soon.

All best,
Johnm       
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on June 05, 2015, 09:39:20 AM
I saw Lightnin' at a Workshop / Meet and Greet back in the early 70's. He was demonstrating some of his guitar techniques when he hit a clunker. He looked at us and said, "I'm Lightnin' Hopkins. I don't make mistakes."

(I may have posted this before, but  I thought that  it was worth repeating for those who may have missed it.)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on June 05, 2015, 01:05:07 PM
I would have loved to participate in this one as well. I started a new job and the shift I'm on this week and next week is not good for getting lots of guitar time in. By the time I get home from work everyone is in bed so no guitar. But soon the shift will change.  Looking forward to participating again!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Chezztone on June 07, 2015, 01:44:04 PM
Ah, yes. After I first listened to it I picked up a guitar that happened to be in Vestapol, and found the notes and chords in that tuning, so posted a quick reply. But I agree now that dropped D works better and is undoubtedly what Hopkins is using. Love that D-chord shape moving up! Thanks, John.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 09, 2015, 11:48:22 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  The song is "Early Morning Blues" (no similarity to the Blake song of the same title), as performed by James Lowry.  I know nothing about Lowry in the biographical sense, but the song evidently was on a cd of Blues from the Western Piedmont.  In some respects he reminds me a little bit of Eddie Bowles, whose "Blues" was the subject of an earlier puzzler in this thread.  Both Bowles and Lowry were sophisticated players who had some very original sounds and ways of getting around on the guitar.  Here is "Early Morning Blues":

https://youtu.be/5onItS3dKXI

INTRO SOLO

It was four o'clock one mornin' and the blues came rollin' 'round
It was four o'clock one mornin' when the blues came rollin' 'round
They rolled so doggone fast that it was soon all over town

I was thinkin' 'bout my baby, ev'y thing she say
Yes, I was thinkin' 'bout my baby, ev'ything she say
I was all by myself and there wasn't nobody there

SOLO

Yes, I love you, baby, tell I love you for my own
Yes, I love you, baby, and I love you for my own
'T'ain't nothin' in the street, mama, you can't get at home

Yes, I love you, baby, love you too doggone hard
Yes, I love you, baby, and I love you too doggone hard
Who knows how much I love you is only me and God

Yes, you know I love you, baby, is, why you treat me so unkind?
Yes, you know I love you, honey, so why you treat me so unkind?
Say, you keep me worried, bothered all the time

SOLO

The questions on "Early Morning Blues" are:
   * What position/tuning did James Lowry use to play the song?
   * Where is James Lowry fretting what he plays behind the first vocal phrase of his first verse, from :31--:35?
   * Where is James Lowry fretting the fill he plays from :35--:38?
   * Where is he fretting what he plays under the second vocal phrase of his first verse, from :38--:42?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday morning, June 11.  I hope a lot folks will participate and try to work out the answers to the second, third and fourth questions.  Thanks for your participation.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 11, 2015, 04:20:25 AM
E standard slightly flat

31:35, maybe he?s playing x76x5x, dragging his thumb across 5th and 4th string before sounding the E note at the 5th fret of the second string?

35?:38 sounds like he may be holding a partial E7 with first finger at 4th string second fret and second finger on second string 3rd get, allowing him then to bounce between E note on 4th string and F sharp note at 4th fret of 4th string

For 2nd vocal phrase of first verse sounds like he?s playing a regular A chord, dragging thumb across strings 6 and 5, then fingering 4th fret of 4th string and pulling off to 2nd fret go 4th string
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on June 11, 2015, 05:47:02 AM
I got as far as putting in E standard tuned down.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on June 11, 2015, 06:59:08 AM
I agree that it is in E, slightly (just slightly) flat, but I think he's playing it capoed at 4 and playing C shape.  (okay, maybe it's just my ears).  Although I bandied this one back and forth with myself for a long while, trying to decide between E standard and C capoed at 4.

To me, capoed at 4 with C shape makes the run a :31 - :35 much easier to play, and leads into the :35-:38 with just bouncing between a C and F shape.

But, my solution doesn't give me an answer for the second vocal phrase, so....?

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on June 11, 2015, 08:16:10 AM
Sounds like E position to me.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 11, 2015, 09:12:33 AM
In agreement with other folks here, E standard about a half step low. 

What Prof Scratchy has for what's been played around 31:35 & 35:38 sounds good to me.  For 31:35 I'm thinking the x7675x shape but am I hearing just a hint of the open E string before it gets sort of muffled and he's then brushing the 5th, 4th & 3rd strings?  For 31:38 I'm definitely hearing the F# on the 4th string, and love that.  Am a bit confused though, as if he's up the neck a bit for 31:35 he needs to come down the neck for 35:38 and I can't help thinking he's playing 31:38 without this movement, though I can't figure anything out yet.

I don't think he's using a capo at the 4th fret as I'm sure I'm hearing the open E string at various times.  Didn't get chance to look at the last part of the puzzler. I decided on E standard real quick but had trouble with the next 2 parts of the puzzle.  Who would have thought a few seconds of music could be so tricky :-)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on June 11, 2015, 12:14:51 PM
Ned, that up and down the neck thing was one of the main reasons I went with the capo, since it just seems to make it easier...but I agree, it is a puzzler for sure.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on June 11, 2015, 12:33:53 PM
James Lowry Early Morning Blues
I didn't get last one right either, but still plugging away.

I think this is played in cross-note tuning, EAEGBE, tuned a little low. Cross-note because the fingering is easier and especially for the bass part is played when preparing to move to the IV (A) chord. It probably could be played in standard tuning as well.

It is interesting that the high E string is rarely played if at all. I wonder if he has only 5 strings?

The guitar behind the opening stanza from :31-:35 is rocking between an E7 chord and an E diminished chord.
beats    + + + + + + + +
     E|-------------------
     B|--3---2---3---2----
     G|--4---3---4---3----
     E|-0---0---0---0-----
     B|-------------------
     E|-------------------


From :35 - :38
I don't think I can capture the timing on this, since I can't even play it, but he plays the 3rd fret 2nd string between the beats, then starts to rock between 2nd fret, 4th string and open 4th string. Even Lowry can hardly play it over the other verses.

Kind of like this:

beats    +   +   +   + 
     E|-------------------
     B|3---3---3---3------
     G|-------------------
     E|--2-0-2-0-2-0------
     B|-------------------
     E|-------------------

From :38-:42
The s4 on the 5th string indicates sliding up to the 4th fret.
beats    +   +   +   +   +
     E|------------------------
     B|------------------------
     G|------------------------
     E|--2---0-2-0---0-2-0--0-2
     A|---s4------s4------s4---
     E|------------------------

Dave

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on June 11, 2015, 05:29:26 PM
   * What position/tuning did James Lowry use to play the song?

Standard tuning, E position - Cross-note and EAEGBE are interesting alternatives, but the full V7 (and VI7) rules them out.

   * Where is James Lowry fretting what he plays behind the first vocal phrase of his first verse, from :31--:35?

He rocks back and forth between these shapes:

0x6430
0x5420

Has the effect of going back and forth between the I7 and the diminished, like Luke Jordan in Church Bell Blues.

   * Where is James Lowry fretting the fill he plays from :35--:38?

Weird with a beard...  can't tell what's happening on the 3rd string, but E and F# are sounding on 4th string and D is sounding on the 2nd string. The riff might be thought of as rocking between these shapes:

0x2x30
0x4x30

You could think of it as a C shape moved up to sound a D, and then played in the context of the low E note....  this gives the net effect of an E9.

   * Where is he fretting what he plays under the second vocal phrase of his first verse, from :38--:42?

sounds like 3rd fret/5th string, 4th fret/5th string, 5th fret/4th string, 4th fret/4th string - a riff on an A7.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lyndvs on June 12, 2015, 09:07:27 AM
position:I like EAEGBE as it makes finguring for what I came up with at 35-38 much easier :D

31-35secs:alternating between
0x0434 and 0x230
35-38 secs.:
4TH STRING OPEN 3RD FRET 2ND STRING PINCHED
1ST FRET  3RD STRING  3RD FRET  2ND STRING
2ND FRET  4TH STRING 1ST FRET  3RD STRING  3RD FRET 2ND STRING PINCHED TOGETHER 
OPEN 4TH STRING  1ST FRET  3RD STRING   3RD FRET  2ND STRING  PINCHED TOGETHER
2ND FRET  4TH STRING 1ST FRET  3RD STRING  3RD FRET 2ND STRING PINCHED -TWICE
OPEN 4TH STRING  1ST FRET  3RD STRING   3RD FRET  2ND STRING  PINCHED TOGETHER
2ND FRET  4TH STRING 1ST FRET  3RD STRING  3RD FRET 2ND STRING PINCHED TOGETHER
OPEN 4TH STRING  1ST FRET  3RD STRING   3RD FRET  2ND STRING  PINCHED TOGETHER
4TH STRING 1ST FRET  3RD STRING  3RD FRET 2ND STRING PINCHED TOGETHER
I think I can hear open 1st string ringing here and there during pinches.

38-42:
5th string open 4th string open
brush up  then down on 2nd and 3rd strings both fretted at 2nd fret
4th fret 5th string  4th string open brush up then down 2nd and 3rd strings both fretted at 2nd fret repeat 3 times

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on June 12, 2015, 01:46:50 PM
An FYI for you folks who regularly follow this topic.  To make it easier to find specific songs in the ever growing list (97 at current count!)  I've added a Menu Item, to the Quick Menu section, on the left panel, called 'Millers Breakdown".  Clicking on the link takes you to John's index of covered songs.

Perpetual Country Blues instruction, ear training and all around fun, from a master of the genre.  How great is that!  Thank you John Miller!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on June 12, 2015, 08:23:07 PM
I agree with E position. Frankie beat me to the Luke Jordan comparison. Who incidentally is also on the Virginia Traditions: Western Piedmont Blues record this is taken from.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on June 12, 2015, 09:47:03 PM
An FYI for you folks who regularly follow this topic.  To make it easier to find specific songs in the ever growing list (97 at current count!)  I've added a Menu Item, to the Quick Menu section, on the left panel, called 'Millers Breakdown".  Clicking on the link takes you to John's index of covered songs.

Perpetual Country Blues instruction, ear training and all around fun, from a master of the genre.  How great is that!  Thank you John Miller!

Slack, this is a great thing you have done...  (Seriously, though, I think this is so great, words escape me).
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: andrescountryblues on June 13, 2015, 09:41:09 AM
What position/tuning did James Lowry use to play the song?
- E position standard tuning

Where is James Lowry fretting what he plays behind the first vocal phrase of his first verse, from :31--:35?
Alternates between these two chords:
-7-
-5-
-7-
-6-
-x-
-x-

AND
-6-
-5-
-6-
-5-
-x-
-x-

I cant really hear the first chord so Im only guessing.

Where is James Lowry fretting the fill he plays from :35--:38?
- Similar to what Frankie said. I think is an E7 chord first position with that play between the 2nd and 4th fret of the 4th string.

Where is he fretting what he plays under the second vocal phrase of his first verse, from :38--:42?
----------------
----------------
----------------
----------------
-------2-5-2---
--3/4----------
----------------
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 13, 2015, 03:11:55 PM
Hi all,
It seems as though everyone who intends to respond to the James Lowry puzzler, "Early Morning Blues", has done so by now, so let's take a look at the answers.  I should say before getting to the answers, though, that this is I think the most challenging puzzler from my point of view since the Emmett Murray puzzler a while back.  This one is tough!
   * Playing position for the song is E position in standard tuning, but with a caveat.  First of all, C position sounding in E, or a little flat of E which was where James Lowry was tuned, won't work because he has a low I note on his sixth string, and the lowest note you can get on the sixth string playing out of C position in standard tuning is  III note (E is the third of a C chord).  Likewise, cross-note or EAEGBE tunings will not work because of the V7 and VI7 chord voicings that James Lowry played:  Both of those voicings as he played them put the major third of those chords on the fourth string, and a major third of the V7 chord is not available on the fourth string in cross-note or EAEGBE tuning due to the fourth string being tuned to the IV note of the V chord, a half-step above the III.  An example in a key may help make this clearer:  In the key of E, the V7 chord is B7.  The major third of B7 is D#, no problem in E position in standard tuning--that note lives at the first fret of the fourth string.  In cross-note tuned to E or EAEGBE tuning, though, that D# note can not be played in that register on the fourth string because the fourth string is tuned to E.  This is what Frank alluded to in his answer, I'm just fleshing it out a little bit.  It's a really good thing to remember, though:  if you hear a "standard tuning" B7 chord happening down at the base of the neck, cross-note and EAEGBE tuning are ruled out.  This one distinction ends up being the easiest way to eliminate cross-note and EAEGBE tunings from being possibilities for an E-sounding piece.
I said there was a caveat to the song being played in E position in standard tuning, and here it is.  Either James Lowry was tuned in standard tuning and never struck his first string from beginning to end in his rendition, or he was playing a guitar missing the first string.  Give Dave credit for noticing this and commenting on it.  I think it is far more likely that his guitar had only five strings on it, and was missing the first string, than that he played an entire rendition of a blues in E while studiously avoiding striking the first string, which was tuned to E.  Not to put too fine a point on it, but that would just be too weird!  I've listened to this rendition at least twice, just listening to hear anything being played that could only be played on the first string, and have heard nothing there.  I reckon he just didn't have a first string on his guitar.  Well heard, Dave!
* For his passage from :31--:35, James Lowry hit the following notes.  I think he played this whole rocking passage with his thumb dragging through in the right hand, hitting the lowest-pitched note in the first position on the + of beat one and dragging into the upper two notes on beat two, then switching to the second position, hitting its lowest-pitched note on the + of beat three and dragging into the upper two notes on beat four.  The first two bars of the verse both conform to this rhythmic placement.  The first position is this:  X-X-6-4-0-X.  You can hear him hit the sixth fret of the fourth string on the + of beat one, and then he brushes the unison between the fourth fret of the third string and the open second string on beat two.  My guess would be that he fretted the sixth fret of the fourth string with his third or ring finger and the fourth fret of the third string with his index finger.  The notes in this position, relative to his tuning, would be G# on the fourth string, B on the third string and B on the open second string.
The second position in the rock consists of the notes E-Bb-C#, from lowest pitched to highest pitched, and can be found in two possible positions.  The first, and most elegant solution, I think, would be X-7-8-6-X-X, which he could get to from his first position by sliding the first position up two frets and dropping his second finger into place at the seventh fret of the fifth string.  This chord, incidentally, is a partial E diminished 7 chord.  The alternative placement of the chord is X-X-2-3-2-X.  It has the advantage of being at the base of the neck, near to where you have to go next, but it doesn't flow well out of the first position in the rock, you have to pick up every finger and re-position, and the voice-leading is not as good.  I'd suggest trying both positions and going for whichever suits you best and seems easiest.  I really hope it was the first option because it is one of the slickest moves ever, but we have no way of knowing for certain at this point.
   * For the passage from :35--:38, a number of you, Scratchy, Old Man Ned, Frank, and Andres were right on it.  James Lowry is essentially playing an E7 chord and rocking between the Root, located at the second fret of the fourth string and the 9 note, located at the fourth fret of the fourth string.  It's a lovely sound, and not one I can recall ever having encountered in a Country Blues before, which is some indication of James Lowry's imagination and big ears (and probably big hands)!  Placed in the pulse it works this way, using the whole passage as his instrumental response to the first vocal line.  Instead of doing two bars of four beats each, he plays one bar of six beats.  On beat one, he brushes an E7 chord 0-2-2-1-3-X.  On beat two, he plays a triplet in which he plays the third fret of the second string on the first and third notes of the triplet and brushes the second fret of the fourth string and the first fret of the third string on the middle note of the triplet.  On beat three, he hits the open sixth string with his right hand thumb on the beat and plays another triplet in the treble, going from the fourth fret of the fourth string on the first note of the triplet to a brushed third fret of the second string and first fret of the third string on the middle note of the triplet, ending the triplet with the second fret of the fourth string.  Beat four repeats the triplet he played for beat three, but without the open sixth string in the bass.  On beat five, he hits the open sixth string in the bass and the fourth fret of the fourth string, both falling on the beat.  On beat six, he has a rest on the beat and hits the pick-up note for the IV7 phrase on the + of beat six. 
For fingering this passage, I think he must have mashed the second fret of the fifth and fourth strings with his second finger, used his index finger to fret the first fret of the third string, his third finger to fret the third fret of the second second string and his little finger to fret the fourth fret of the fourth string, the 9 note that gives the fill such a pretty and unusual sound.
   * For his passage from :38--:42, James Lowry is working in an A7 chord.  He anticipates the downbeat, hitting the open fifth string on the + of beat six from the previous measure, doing a thumb roll into the second fret of the fourth string on the downbeat of the measure, hitting the fifth fret of the fourth string on the + of beat one, sliding that fifth fret of the fourth string down to the fourth fret of the fourth string on beat two, continuing towards the treble with his thumb and brushing the second fret of the third and second strings so that they sound simultaneous with the slid note at the fourth fret of the fourth string.  On the + of beat two, he hits the fourth fret of the fifth string, doing a thumb roll into the second fret of the fourth string on beat three, getting the fifth fret of the fourth string on the + of beat three, sliding the fifth fret down to the fourth fret on beat four and brushing the second fret of the third and second strings simultaneous with that. He repeats what he did in the second half of the first measure of the IV7 chord for both halves of the second measure of the IV7 chord.  Frank and Andres both pretty much had this.

Whew!  These three passages by no means exhaust James Lowry's invention in "Early Morning Blues".  I could, but won't, do another puzzler just on this song.  I hope you all enjoyed his performance here as much as I did.  When I hear someone do so many original things in the course of playing a blues in such a well-trod area, I am awed.  I think we're sometimes tempted to think if we've listened to this music for a while that we're unlikely to hear anything we've never heard before by someone coming out of the tradition.  I think this song proves that is not the case.  Keep listening and searching out material and you'll encounter more gems like this one from time to time.

I hope that some of you are working through some of the explanations in these puzzlers, trying out the moves and seeing how they feel under your hands.  Thanks for participating and I'll try to find another good puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm       
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on June 13, 2015, 06:11:55 PM
Thanks, as always, John, for a wonderful song and explanation.

I enjoyed this so much, I'm downloading the album from Folkways...($9.99, but that's cheap for all that good music!)

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 13, 2015, 06:48:46 PM
You're welcome, Ross, and I'm going to have to get that CD for myself, too.  It's really a winner, with lots of great stuff on it.
Thanks also to Slack for setting up the menu item in the left menu, Miller's Breakdown, to get the easiest access to the list of songs in the thread and the links to where each song starts in the thread.  It makes it so easy to find any of the songs you care to re-visit or hear for the first time.  Thanks, Slack!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 14, 2015, 06:01:16 AM
Would also like to add to the thanks for this explanation, John.  I've been itching to see how the 31:38 passage was fingered as I felt I was just dancing around it without being able to nail what was going on.  Again, I'm amazed that this thread has revealed another blues man I'd never heard who has such a unique way of playing things.  For sure, I'll be downloading the Folkways album.  Can't wait to hear the rest of the tunes on it.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on June 14, 2015, 03:46:46 PM
* For his passage from :31--:35
X-X-6-4-0-X
X-7-8-6-X-X
one of the slickest moves ever

That IS a slick move, especially considering it sounds so much like a position that's descending (to me, anyway). To have that sound result from a move that's physically ascending is amazing...  as a guitar nerd, I know that this is possible, but it's kinda startling to see it put into practice like that.

For the passage from :35--:38
I think he must have mashed the second fret of the fifth and fourth strings with his second finger, used his index finger to fret the first fret of the third string, his third finger to fret the third fret of the second second string and his little finger to fret the fourth fret of the fourth string, the 9 note that give the fill such a pretty and unusual sound.

That is one BIG HANDED move. Wow. Either that or pure willpower. Mind over matter! I had actually considered that he was working out of a 1st position E7, but was flummoxed by my own limitations, so I stopped considering it.

Great job picking this one!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 14, 2015, 05:07:59 PM

That IS a slick move, especially considering it sounds so much like a position that's descending (to me, anyway).


I know what you mean, Frank, and thinking about it, I think what makes the whole rocking motion between those two positions work is the seemingly innocuous unison fretted and open B notes in the first position.  By having them in the first position, it's possible to move both up and down resolving into the second position, with one of the Bs going down to Bb and the other going up to C#.  How great to be able to think of something like that!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 16, 2015, 09:13:29 AM
Hi all,
It has been a little while since we had a series of puzzlers which involved simply identifying what positions/tunings were used to play a series of songs.  So here goes with three songs.  The first is Will Day's "Central Avenue Blues".  Here it is:

http://youtu.be/HF_X-cNng2k (http://youtu.be/HF_X-cNng2k)

   * What playing position/tuning did Will Day use to play "Central Avenue Blues"?

CLARINET SOLO

I'm gonna build me a little mansion on Central Avenue
I'm gonna build me a little mansion on Central Avenue
So I can stick my head out the widow see what my wicked women will do

Lord, I got a pretty mama, lives on Central Avenue
I got a pretty mama, lives on Central Avenue
Now if that woman wants to quit me, boy, wonder what in the world that I would do

I b'lieve there's Heavens but I seen my pretty mama right there
I b'lieve there's Heaven, Lord, I seen my pretty mama up there
She has one gold tooth and coal black, wavy hair

Good girl used to live here, don't live here no more
Good girl used to live here, don't live here no more
Left here early this mornin', carried all of her clothes

Before I stand to see my good girl leave me in this town
'Fore I stand to see my good girl leave me in this town
I'd beat the train to the corner and I swear to stop hers down

Lord, pretty mama, wonder, what are you tryin' to do?
Lord, pretty mama, wonder what are you tryin' to do?
Seem like you're startin' to run with me and my buddy, too

I'm going to West Texas, Lord, I'm going to stay
I'm going to West Texas, Lord, I'm going to stay
Got a brownskin woman, said she'd pay my way

The second song is Gabriel Brown's rendition of "I Get Evil When My Love Comes Down".  Here it is:

http://youtu.be/QaZygg86VyU (http://youtu.be/QaZygg86VyU)

   *What playing position/tuning did Gabriel Brown use to play "I Get Evil When My Love Comes Down"?

The third song is the Mississippi Jook Band's recording of "Skippy Whippy".  Here it is:

http://youtu.be/S-USppH1fC8?list=PLroGMBw4WBrSO5aiK_lJTP6m60PCWrD0A (http://youtu.be/S-USppH1fC8?list=PLroGMBw4WBrSO5aiK_lJTP6m60PCWrD0A)

   *What playing position/tuning is the guitarist in the Mississippi Jook Band using to play his part on "Skippy Whippy"?  (Extra credit:  Who is that guitarist?)

As always, please use only your ears and instruments to come up with your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on the morning of Thursday, June 18.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the tunes.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 18, 2015, 01:14:35 PM
Hi all,
Any takers on the Will Day, Gabriel Brown, Mississippi Jook Band puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jpeters609 on June 18, 2015, 01:20:01 PM

   *What playing position/tuning is the guitarist in the Mississippi Jook Band using to play his part on "Skippy Whippy"?  (Extra credit:  Who is that guitarist?)


Well, being that I'm not a guitarist, I will at least get things rolling by taking a stab at the extra credit question: The guitarist on the Mississippi Jook Band recordings is none other than Blind Roosevelt Graves.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on June 18, 2015, 01:37:40 PM
Will Day Central Ave Blues, I am guessing Spanish capoed up 5 frets to C. This could be way wrong, especially if there is more than one guitarist. It is very hard to tell.

Gabriel Brown I Get Evil, Drop D capoed up 2 frets to E.

Mississippi Jook Band, standard tuning, key of C. Guitarist? Not a clue.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on June 18, 2015, 01:40:33 PM
Well shoot, I meant to sit down with my guitar and run through these...

I can take a shot at Central Avenue Blues without a guitar.  I'd say A Standard, because of the familiar thumb drag from the E to A string and the rocking A to A7 in the long A position.  And because so many Texas Blues are in A.  :P

I'll go listen to the others again, but do not feel too confident w/o guitar in hand...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on June 18, 2015, 05:10:11 PM
OK, Johnm cleverly gave me enough time to find a guitar.

I'm sticking with A standard for Central Ave Blues... one step up.

I agree with Dave on I Get Evil Dropped D, one step up.

Ms Juke Band - I'm tempted to go with the pitch -- Bflat, but would make more sense for piano at C, so agree with Dave again. 

No idea on guitarist.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on June 18, 2015, 08:27:03 PM
Without playing it again, I'm inclined to think that A shape is the likely answer for Central Ave Blues too.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 18, 2015, 08:59:30 PM
Hi all,
I'm not intending on supplying the answers here imminently, so there is time for more folks to post their answers if they're so inclined.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mr mando on June 19, 2015, 03:01:01 AM
Don't have a guitar at hand, but guessing from what I hear:

Central Ave Blues: A pos. std. tuning (agree with Slack)
I Get Evil: Dropped D (agree with Slack and davek)
Skippy Whippy: G pos. std. tuning (capoed up)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 19, 2015, 03:13:04 AM
I agree with mr mando's answers for all three.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 19, 2015, 09:45:46 AM
In agreement with A standard for Central Ave blues though to be honest on first hearing I was considering C (don't know why now I've listened again).

For I Get Evil I was hearing this in E and thinking standard but listening after reading Mr Mando's post, I too think it's dropped D capoed up 2 frets.

The Skippy Whippy boogie pattern I was hearing in Bb flat.  Hadn't occurred to me that it cold be G capoed up 3 frets, but yeah, that sounds good to me.  Haven't got a Scooby who the guitar player is.  I think of plenty of guitar players it's not  ;D
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on June 19, 2015, 02:07:49 PM
A, Dropped D, Spanish
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on June 19, 2015, 03:17:51 PM
Agree with Phil on this one.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on June 19, 2015, 03:33:36 PM
I agree with Phil & Chris...  and jpeters609 nailed the guitarist - Blind Roosevelt Graves!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on June 20, 2015, 06:02:07 AM
Quick listen through and I'd hazard

A position standard
E standard
something not standard :p
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 20, 2015, 08:42:38 AM
Hi all,
It seems like people who wished to respond to the puzzlers probably have done so by now, so here are the answers.  It's great to have so many people participating.
   * Will Day's "Central Avenue Blues" was played out of A standard as Slack had it early on and everybody pretty much ended up agreeing.  It is a really fine example of an early "Texas A blues".  It has some neat touches--going to the bVI chord, F, in the sixth bar, and sliding up to the J. T. Smith D7 chord, 4-5-3-5 on the top four strings, in the tenth bar.  Cool clarinet, too.
   * Gabriel Brown's "I Get Evil When My Love Comes Down" was played out of dropped-D tuning, as many of you had it.  Dropped-D can best be distinguished from E standard by a couple of sound characteristics:
     1) Dropped-D puts the third of the I chord on the first string.  E can do that as well, if the player is using a D shape moved up two frets, but more often, E position puts the I note on the first string. 
     2) When dropped-D goes to the IV7 chord, very often you hear the movement that Gabriel Brown used here:  the F# third of the I chord on the first string resolves down one half step into F, the seventh of the IV7 chord, G7, and the open fifth string in the D chord walks up to the second fret B, which is the third of the G7 chord.  It's a very distinctive dropped-D sound, and it can be heard in a host of dropped-D tunes of the "Big Road Blues"/Stop and Listen" family.
     3) The V chord in D, A or A7, sounds nothing like the V7 chord in E, B7.
Gabriel Brown made more extensive use of dropped-D tuning than any other early Country Blues guitarist, and unlike some of the Texas players, only used it to play in D, never in A, on his recordings where he used that tuning.
   * For "Skippy Whippy", Jeff gets credit for the first naming of the guitarist, Roosevelt Graves, who did play his guitar part for "Skippy Whippy" in Spanish tuning, as Phil, Chris and Frank had it.  A couple of aural giveaways of Roosevelt Graves' use of Spanish tuning:
     1) His V7 chord has that drony, "no third" sound that the V7 chord characteristically has in Spanish, fingered at 0-2-1-0 on the top four strings, and voiced Root-V-bVII-Root.
     2) Roosevelt Graves liked to use a barred IV chord, barring the top four or five strings at the fifth fret (relative to his capo placement).  You can hear the I chord move up, voicing intact, into the IV chord.  It is much more difficult, and as a result less commonly done, to move a I chord up the neck, shape intact, to get a IV chord in standard tuning.
Roosevelt Graves always had such a beautiful tone, and I think there is a very good chance that he flat-picked everything on his recordings.  All of his recorded numbers were played out of Spanish tuning, and it is unfortunate, from a listening point of view, that a very high percentage of his recordings are really whupped, and hard to hear.  For guitarists there is an additional frustration, perhaps, that he was so often paired with really strong, florid pianists, and the recording technology of the time wasn't able to capture both the piano and the guitar with any kind of dynamic parity.  Oh well, straining to hear is probably good for us.
Thanks to everyone who participated.  There were a very high percentage of correct answers and congratulations to Phil for being the earliest poster to get all three songs spot on, and to Chris and Frank for getting them as well.  I'll look for another good puzzler to post soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 20, 2015, 01:00:33 PM
Hi all,
I would very much appreciate some help finishing the tagline to the fifth verse of Will Day's "Central Avenue Blues".  You can listen to it at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg93654#msg93654 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg93654#msg93654) .  Thanks for your help.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on June 20, 2015, 05:18:26 PM
I beat the train to the [         ] and I [              ] down

I hear: I beat the train to the corner...

no idea on the second one,  mighty tough!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 20, 2015, 06:01:41 PM
I think you're right on that first space, Slack.  I'm now hearing

   I beat the train to the corner and I flagged the [copper?] down

I'm pretty sure "corner" and "flagged" are right, not certain what exactly was flagged down, though.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on June 20, 2015, 08:38:08 PM
Phonetically it sounds like 'tussler' ... which could make sense in the context as well.

There are some interesting urban definitions of 'tussle'!

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on June 20, 2015, 10:36:00 PM
I hear: beat the train to the corner and ???? the depot down.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on June 21, 2015, 06:23:12 AM
I hear: beat the train to the corner and I  waved the damper down

could it be Tampa?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harriet on June 21, 2015, 07:06:53 AM
phonetically I hear I beat the train to the [cortella] cortell line, flagged the southports down
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 21, 2015, 09:19:55 AM
Hi all,
I'm now hearing "I beat the train to the corporal and flagged the coppers down".
Whatever precedes the word "down" is a plural.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 21, 2015, 10:55:26 AM
Hi all,
   "I beat the train to the corporal and I swear to stop her down"
I'm happy with the tail end of the line now and think that part is right, not so sure about "corporal",  but the sound is right on, I think.

EDITED TO ADD:  I'd beat the the train to the corner, and I swear to stop hers down
Forget "corporal"--don't know what I was thinking/hearing with that.  I'm satisfied with the most recent iteration.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 23, 2015, 03:40:10 PM
Hi all,
I have two new puzzlers for you.  The first is "Hattie Mae", as performed by Andrew Dunham, who also did the very first song we had in this thread, "Sweet Lucy".  Here is Andrew Dunham's performance of "Hattie Mae":

http://youtu.be/3RSkijY2DIE (http://youtu.be/3RSkijY2DIE)

INTRO

Hattie Mae, Hattie Mae, you the sweetest girl I know
Yeah, Hattie Mae, Hattie Mae, you the sweetest girl I know
You made me walk from Alabama, Georgia, Miss'ippi, Gulf in Mexico

Now tell me, Hattie Mae, what can I do to make you take me back, and God knows, you so nice and kind
Hattie Mae, you the sweetest girl I know

Please, Hattie Mae, please take me back
Yes, Hattie Mae, and try me one more time
Taker me, Hattie Mae, and try me one more time

I tell you, Hattie Mae, you try me one more time, I'll do anything in the world, just to get along with you, for you know, Hattie Mae, you the sweetest girl I know
Hattie Mae, you is the sweetest girl I know
Great God Almighty, you're the sweetest girl I know
I walked all the way from Alabama, Mississippi,  to Georgia, Kansas City, to Mexico

Hattie Mae, you is the sweetest girl I know

Here are the questions about "Hattie Mae":
   * What playing position/tuning did Andrew Dunham use to play "Hattie Mae"?
   * Where did Andrew Dunham fret the chordal position he keeps resolving to throughout his rendition.  You can hear it at :07--:08, :14, :17--:18, and elsewhere throughout the song.

The second song is Jim Brewer's recording of "Rocky Mountain".  Here it is:

http://youtu.be/DsqInOrRnIQ (http://youtu.be/DsqInOrRnIQ)

INTRO

Rocky Mountain, 'way out in the West
Rocky Mountain, it's 'way out in the West
I'm gonna leave you, baby, and God knows it's for the best

I'm goin' away now, baby, I'm goin' where the eagle build their nest
I'm goin' away now, baby, I'm goin' where the eagle build their nest
Well, I'm goin' now, baby, I'm goin' further 'way out West

Rocky Mountain, is a dang'ous place to go
Rocky Mountain, it is a dang'ous place to go
Anybody goed out there, they may not get back here no more

Tell me, baby, tell me what's a-gettin' wrong with you
Tell me, baby, tell me what's a-gettin' wrong with you
I'm gonna leave here, baby, I'm gonna leave it up with you

SOLO (Spoken: Yes, yes)

Rocky Mountain is a terrible place to go
Rocky Mountain, it is a terrible place to go
I"m gon' leave here, baby, and I won't be back no more

SOLO (Spoken: Yes, yes)

Sometimes now, baby, I don't care where I go
Sometimes, sometimes, Lord, I don't care where I go
Well, the way you treated me, I don't care where I go

Rocky Mountain, that is the place for me
Rocky Mountain, that is a place for me
I'm gonna leave here, baby, 'cause I don't feel welcome here

Here are the questions for "Rocky Mountain":
   * What playing position/tuning did Jim Brewer use to play "Rocky Mountain"?
   * Where did Jim Brewer fret the run that he plays from :14--:16?
   * Where did Jim Brewer fret the bass run he plays from 3:06--3:09?

As always, please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers.  Please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time in the morning on Thursday, June 25.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
u
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on June 25, 2015, 01:05:17 PM
Ah, c'mon.  Someone jump in here and help me out, would you please?  I'm totally lost on "Hattie Mae"....

"Rocky Mountain" I suspect is down in C with a capo on 2nd fret (Key of D)....or maybe just D position and played up the neck with a C shape...but I know it seems to live at frets 5-7 most of the time.  The first run starts on an A note, I think 4th string, 5th fret (or 7th fret without capo), and descends from there, but I get lost a bit.  I'm close, but not quite there.  (probably would help if I'd not watch World Cup matches while playing)....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on June 25, 2015, 01:27:33 PM
Ah, c'mon.  Someone jump in here and help me out, would you please?  I'm totally lost on "Hattie Mae"....

Hattie Mae is definitely the tougher of the two...  and I do completely LOVE that way this song sounds - EVERYTHING about it! A couple of observations:

1) On the top three strings, the whole song consists of a single "D7" chord shape moved up and down the neck. Expressed relative to G position in std tuning (not what I think the tuning is, BTW) he uses these shapes:

xxx767 - I7

xxx545 - kind of a nasty V7 flat 9

xxx323 - extra, extra nasty Idim - becomes his tonic chord - he puts a little squeeze on the 3rd and 2nd string when he sits on it...  LOVE IT!!!! fun-kaaaay....

2) from the perspective of determining the tuning and position, the whole performance seems to suffer from pathological string avoidance of both the 5th AND 4th strings. The top 3 strings are always fretted.

3) his more or less regular bass note is on the 6th string, ringing out as the 5th below the tonic.

Put all together, these observations seem rule out spanish tuning and G position in standard tuning.

Still left on the table are standard tuning, A position and half spanish tuning. Maybe one of you guys hears something that will cinch it.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 25, 2015, 02:20:56 PM
Unfortunately am travelling for work and without my guitar for this one.  Subsequently, I'm not going to touch Hattie Mae!  Love it though.  Rocky Mountain though, I'm going to take a stab at and say A in standard tuning.  It reminds me a bit of Lightnin Hopkins.  If not A then E...i'm useless without my guitar to hand, but i have had a couple of beers and only listened the once so that's my excuse.

Ross:  I completely understand regarding the distractions of the World Cup...the ladies certainly do bring another dimension...or dimensions to the game.......that is what you meant isn't it?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on June 25, 2015, 02:25:44 PM
Ned, I just love futbol.  I do announcing for one of the local high schools during their seasons, and watch two different MLS teams....  Too many years living in Germany, I guess. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on June 25, 2015, 05:18:30 PM
Rocky Mountain sounds like key of D but not drop D. He slides into the low G for his IV chord, which you could do at the fifth fret in drop D but I don't hear the low D note and it doesn't sound like he moves around to catch the B on the 5th string. It's definitely not C position because he walks up the V chord (in this case a barred A7) from the open strings up to the first and then second fret a couple of times.

My instinct on Hattie Mae is A position standard tuning, I can't really articulate why that over half-Spanish. It sounds to me like Dunham is trying to imitate Walter Davis' piano sound in this number (and doing a great job). That little bass move he makes, playing I believe the bVII note of the scale and going back to the V (I don't have a guitar with me but I think that's it), really sounds like Davis to me.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on June 26, 2015, 05:32:41 AM


Without a guitar my first thought on Hattie Mae was A standard with the the positions a la Frankie.

I favour D standard for rocky Mountain, one phrase just caught my ear to trigger this.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 26, 2015, 09:29:43 AM
Hi all,
Any other takes for the "Hattie Mae" and "Rocky Mountain" puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on June 26, 2015, 12:45:36 PM
haha! So you're all doing this without your guitars, now!!

Rocky Mountain sounds like D standard
the run from 0.13-0.16 goes
2nd string .. 222 222 20. 0...............22.2
3rd string .. ................3 .30 230 2...22.2
4th string ...................................0..22.2

Hattie Mae sounds great!!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on June 26, 2015, 09:12:36 PM
I'm pretty much agreeing with Frankie on Hattie Mae. Sounds like standard tuning to me, up a half step, starting that lick with this shape:

8
9
x
x
x

then descending 2 frets with the same shape, then descending again but I'm not sure about the last shape of the form

In the bass, I hear a brush from the 6th string to the 5th string root note.

Still have to work on Rocky Mountain

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on June 27, 2015, 12:07:04 AM
For Rocky Mountain, I think that Brewer is in Vestapol (D) tuning, in the approximate key of E.

The run from 0:14 is triplets, starts with slides into the third fret of the third string. Each of the first 5 notes are slid.
    |        |       |        |
D  x
A  x
F#3 3 3 3 3 1   
D  x                3 0 3 0    0
A  x                            3
D  x

From 3:06 the bass run is pickup and triplets played on the 5th and 4th strings, pickup is 3rd fret 5th string, first triplet is on the 3rd fret 5th string, open 4th, 3nd fret 5th string, next triplet is 2nd fret 5th string, open 4th, 2nd fret 5th string, next triplet is 1st fret 5th string, open 4th, 1st fret 5th, then open 5th string on the last beat of the phrase.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 27, 2015, 10:28:21 AM
Hi all,
It seems as though there has been enough time for people to respond who wished to, so I'll post the answers to the most recent puzzlers. 
For Andrew Dunham's "Hattie Mae":
   * Playing position was A in standard tuning, as I think most of you ended up selecting.  Well done!
   * The chord position that Andrew Dunham kept resolving to in his rendition, his I chord of choice was an A diminished triad, fretted at 5-4-5 on the top three strings, moving from the third string to the first string.  Dunham's left hand, the chord names and functions are exactly as Frank had them in his post.  Way to parse it, Frank, your explanation was so clear that it makes my job at this stage that much easier!

I agree with Chris that the sound Dunham gets on the song very much channels a sort of Walter Davis sound, but I suspect that Dunham's idea for his left hand move, really the only thing he does in the left hand in the whole song, moving the same shape from the ninth fret to the seventh fret and then to the fifth fret, derives from Robert Johnson, and Johnson's solo on "Kind Hearted Woman Blues".  Johnson did have a crucial difference from Dunham in his execution of the idea:  when he got to the fifth fret, Johnson gave up the second string altogether and bent the third string very heavily, almost to a major third.  Dunham, by moving the shape down intact and keeping it at the fifth fret ended up with an altogether eerier sound, that diminished triad as a point of resolution.  We know that Johnson spent some time with several musicians who ended up in and around Detroit, Sampson Pittman, Calvin Frazier and Willie Blackwell (for a while), and it may be that Dunham picked up the sound or idea from one of them rather than from Johnson himself. 

In any case, I'm glad that a number of you were taken by Dunham's sound on the tune.  I really love it, and pretty much love everything Andrew Dunham recorded.  Thanks to Prof Scratchy for first posting a Dunham tune at the site.  Had I not heard that, I could easily have missed Andrew Dunham altogether.  If you haven't listened to Dunham's "Sweet Lucy", go to the first post in this thread and check it out.  I think I like it even better than "Hattie Mae".

For Jim Brewer's "Rocky Mountain":
   * He played the song out of D position in standard tuning.  At :05, you can hear him resolving to a "long A" chord:  X-0-2-2-2-5.  Congratulations to Chris, Phil and Gumbo, who had it there.
   * I misidentified the timing of the run I was looking for near the front of the rendition.  It actually runs from :13--:15.  It starts on beat two of the 11th bar of the form.  On that beat, Jim Brewer plays a triplet, doing grace note hammers from the open third string to the second fret of the third string on each note of the triplet.  On the next beat, he plays another triplet, doing the same grace note hammers on the first two notes of the triplet and hitting the open third string on the third note of the triplet.  On the next beat, he plays another triplet, going from the bent third fret of the fourth string to a brush of the open fourth and third strings and back to the bent third fret of the fourth string.  On the first beat of the twelfth bar of the form, he plays another triplet, going from the open fourth string to the third fret of the fifth string and back to the open fourth string.  On the second beat of the twelfth bar, he plays another triplet hitting the open fourth string on the first note and then brushing the top of an A7 chord on the last two notes of the triplet.
   * For the run from 3:06--3:09, Jim Brewer starts it on the + of beat one in the 11th bar of the form, hitting the third fret of the fifth string there.  On the second beat of that measure, he plays a triplet from the third fret of the fifth string to the open fourth string and back to the third fret of the fifth string.  On the third beat of that measure, he plays a triplet from the second fret of the fifth string to the open fourth string and back to the second fret of the fifth string.  On the fourth beat of that measure, he plays a triplet from the first fret of the fifth string to the open fourth string, ending on the open fifth string, which he repeats as the downbeat of the twelfth bar of the form, going to an A7 at that point.  Dave pretty much had this run right on, despite working out of Vestapol, because the fifth and fourth strings are the same in Vestapol as in standard tuning.  Pretty cool!

Thanks to all for your participation, and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I will look for some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 30, 2015, 09:31:42 AM
Hi all,
I have two new puzzlers for you.  The first is "Kentucky Guitar Blues", as played by J. T. Adams, a sometime playing partner of Shirley Griffith.  The track is short, and unfortunately was recorded at too hot a level, but I think J. T.'s playing is really fine.  Here is the track:

http://youtu.be/6sM2ms8XutM (http://youtu.be/6sM2ms8XutM)

The questions on "Kentucky Guitar Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did J. T. Adams use to play the tune?
   * Where did he fret the opening lick he plays, from :00--:04?
   * Where did he fret the passage from :15--:19?
   * Where did he fret the passage from :47--:50?

The second is Snooks Eaglin's "Brown-Skinned Woman", from his Prestige Bluesville album.  Here is the track:

http://youtu.be/D2QLh2GvrP8 (http://youtu.be/D2QLh2GvrP8)

SOLO

I love my baby, but she don't love me
Well, I love my baby, but she don't love me
Tell me what's the matter, where can my baby be?

Brownskin woman, who can your good man be?
Brownskin woman, who can your good man be?
Well, you told me that you love me, tell me, where can you be?

Well, you said that you loved me, I know it was a lie
You said that you loved me, baby, and what's the reason why?
Yeah, I love you, oh, I love you
Yes, I love you, baby, but I don't care what you do

Brownskinned woman, who can your good man be?
Brownskinned woman, I want to say, who can your good man be?
Well, you know that I love you, but you so untrue to me

The questions on "Brown-Skinned Woman" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Snooks use to play the song?
   * What chords (relative to his tuning and playing position) does Snooks play from :28--:33?
   * What is Snooks fretting in the movement from 2:37--2:38?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday morning, July 2nd.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 02, 2015, 09:54:55 AM
Both these are really hard to unpick! Both guitars seem tuned a whole step low. The JT Adams one is in A standard. The opening phrase seems to be based on a D shape A chord at the ninth fret, something like: 1/12>11>10>9;2/10;1/9;2/10;1/9

The passage from 0:15-19 is played something like: 6/0>hammer on 1>2;5/0>3;4/0/2/0;5/3;4/0/2/0;5/3/0;6/2;5/0

The passage from 47-50 sounds like the kind of thing  Lil Son Jackson would do in half spanish. He slides to 5fr 2nd string, plays first str open then 5th fret first str; then plays riff off abbreviated c chord utilising 3rd to 5th frets of strings 1-3. (Too fast and complex for me to decipher note for note.

The Snooks tune, I believe, is in C tuned down a step, but that's as far as I got.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on July 02, 2015, 10:20:24 AM
I worked on the Snooks tune, not the JT Adams, so I'll take a swing at it...(and miss, I'm sure, but hey, won't be my first time).

I think it is in standard tuning, capo on 2nd fret, played in A.  (which would be the same key as the Prof., B).

The movement at :28 - :33 is hard to figure, but here's my take on it (string, then fret)

3/2, 3/4, 3/2 then 2/5, 2/3, 3/2, 2/3, 2/2, 2/1

But, I'm sure wiser heads will pick it out right.


Later that day, edited:  So, after getting home and reading some of the other responses, I retuned my 6 string down ....yep, C, down a half step, not A capoed at 2.  Rats.  But, on the other hand, it sounds better that way.  (I didn't want to retune the 12, too much work, but after I get it figured out right, I will play it on the 12 like it is supposed to be.)

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on July 02, 2015, 01:36:06 PM
To me, also, both guitars sound a whole step low.  Kentucky Guitar Blues, I'm hearing in A standard.  The opening lick, I'm hearing very much the same as Prof Scratchy 1/12>11>10 2/10 1/9 2/10 1/9 ending with a brush on the top 2 strings 1/9 2/10.  From 0:15-19, again pretty much the same as the Prof.  From 47:50, I'm getting 2/5 0/0 0/0 1/3 1/5 1/3 2/3 0/0 2/3 2/1 2/3 2/1 2/2 or thereabouts
                                                                          2/5

The Snooks Eaglin track I love.  In fact, I love just about everything I've heard by Snooks Eaglin.  To me, he's a guitar player that had it all, and by that I probably mean, he's the guitar player that I wish I had all he had.  I would have loved to have rattled off a whole transcription for this but at the moment that's just in my dreams.  Suffice to say, C standard and I'm struggling with the other 2 puzzlers. From 28:33 I'm suggesting he's moving from an F/F7 to C but I'm feeling I'm missing something a little more exotic here or completely barking up the wrong tree.  From 2:37-2:38 I'm afraid that's 2 seconds of bliss that's eluding me at the moment.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 03, 2015, 08:48:10 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the J. T. Adams and Snooks Eaglin puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on July 03, 2015, 12:36:31 PM
I know there are a few answers before me, but I like to try to figure these out without those influencing me, so I haven't read them yet.

Adam's Kentucky blues is in spanish. Low to high, DGDGBD, key of G.
Opening lick from 00 - :04:
is executed at the 8th fret, play 2rd string, 12th fret then 1st string and walk down to the 9th fret on that string,
play the 8th fret 2nd string, 9th fret 1st string, again 8th fret 2nd string. Then play the partial G7th chord,  at the 6th fret, hitting it twice. I'm hearing the flat 7th in there before the end of the run which makes me doubt my answer somewhat, as it isn't easy to get it in there, but one way is to play it as shown on the 3rd string, 10th fret.
E     12 11 10 9    9           
B 7                    8   8  6 6
G     10                       7 7
D x--------------------------------
G x--------------------------------                                             
D x--------------------------------

The run from :15-:19
starts on the 2th fret, 3rd string
E ---------------               
B                7 7
G 2    2 7 5 5 5       
D    4 ------7-7------------0
G --------------------0 3 5    5 3p0    0
D ---------------0h2---------------2

From :47 to :50, at the 7th fret and using the open 1st string to double the D note.
E   0  0
B          6 7 8 6
G 7  7               7 5 3 5     
D ----------------------5
G -------------       
D -------------

Snooks' Brown Skin Woman is in standard tuning, key of C. This would be my approximation of how he plays it, anyway.
From :28 - :33, Snooks starts with a C9 pickup to an F chord, to an Fm chord.

I ran out of time on this, and found it quite confusing, think I am hearing a low C in the mix - is he tuned down that low or is there a bass player? I couldn't find a tuning with a low C that worked for me.

Love that tune, though.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on July 03, 2015, 03:05:22 PM
Pretty sure Adams' tune is in A standard, not Spanish. The IV chord played walking up on the sixth string to the second fret and in a root D7 position is one giveaway, along with the V chord sound.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on July 04, 2015, 10:01:28 AM
Pretty sure Adams' tune is in A standard, not Spanish. The IV chord played walking up on the sixth string to the second fret and in a root D7 position is one giveaway, along with the V chord sound.
You are probably right. I missed that clue entirely. My problem is, I hear G and I find a semi-reasonable solution and stop listening to other clues - I'm listening only to the parts John asked about after I think I've hit the right tuning.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 04, 2015, 01:33:18 PM
Hi all,
I think that everyone who intended to respond to the J. T. Adams and Snooks Eaglin puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.
For J. T. Adams' "Kentucky Guitar Blues":
   * He played the song out of A position in standard tuning (though tuned low).  His IV7 chord and V7 chord both are voicings which are not available in Spanish tuning.  It's probably a good idea when working out these puzzlers to remember that the percentage of Country Blues recordings in which the player is tuned to concert pitch and playing without a capo is pretty low.  For that reason, and also because of capo use on some recordings, it is a good idea not to set very much store on the key in which a song sounds.  That key has a very good chance of not matching up with the playing position/tuning a player is using to play the song.
   * J. T. Adams fretted the passage from :00--:04 on his tune like so:  He is working out of a D/D7 shape up at the ninth fret.  He picks the 10th fret of the second string on the + of beat four, preceding the downbeat of the form.  On beat one of the first measure, he plays a triplet, going from the 11th fret to the 10th fret to the 9th fret, all on the first string.  When he hits the 9th fret on the third note of that triplet, he also brushes the 8th fret of the second string, where the 7th in that D7 shape is sitting.  On beat two, he plays another triplet going from the 10th fret of the second string to the ninth fret of the first string and back to the 10th fret of the second string.  As with the first triplet, when he strikes the ninth fret of the first string, he also brushes the 8th fret of the second string.  On beat three he brushes the 9th fret of the first string and the 8th fret of the second string on the beat, and on the + of the beat he plays the 8th fret of the second string, which ties into the downbeat of the fourth beat.  On the + of beat four, he does a pick-up slide into the seventh fret of the second string, in preparation for his D chord in the second bar.  Prof Scratch and Old Man Ned were both pretty much on this lick, with the primary difference being that Adams' walk-down on the first string started at the 11th rather than the 12th fret.
   * J. T. Adams played the passage from :15--:19 like so:  On the fourth beat of the 8th bar of the form, he plays a triplet, going from the open fourth string to the first fret of the fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string.  In the ninth bar, beat one, he hits the open sixth string on beat one and the open second string on the + of beat one.  On beat two, he plays a triplet, moving from the open third string to the first fret of the third string and on to the open first string.  On beat three, he plays the third fret of the second string on the beat and brushes the open first string and the third fret of the second string on the + of the beat.  On beat four, he brushes the same two notes he brushed on the + of beat three, brushing towards the treble, and on the + of beat four, he does a grace note hammer from the open sixth string to the second fret of the sixth string.  In the 10th bar, on beat one he hits the open fifth string and the a bent third fret of the fifth string on the + of beat one.  On beat two, he plays a triplet going from the open fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string and back to the open fourth string.  On beat three, he hits a triplet, going from the third fret of the fifth string to the open fourth string and back to the third fret of the fifth string.  On beat four, he hits one last triplet, going from the open fifth string to the second fret of the sixth string and back to the open fifth string.  ( I was crazy to assign so long a passage to figure out!  It takes forever to describe.)
   * J. T. Adams played the passage from :47--:50 like so:  He is moving towards the tenth bar of the form in this passage, and to set up the passage does a slide into the fifth fret of the second string on the + of beat four in the ninth bar of the form.  On beat one of the tenth bar, he plays a triplet, moving from the open first string to the fifth fret of the second string and back to the open first string.  On beat two, he plays another triplet, going from the third fret of the first string up to the fourth and fifth frets on that string.  On beat three, he plays a triplet gong from the third fret of the first string to the fifth fret of the second string, finishing up on the third fret of the second string.  On beat four, he plays a triplet, going from the fifth fret of the third string to the third fret of the second string and back to the fifth fret of the third string, resolving down to the second fret of the fourth string for the downbeat of the 11th bar of the form.  Prof Scratchy had this substantially figured out, in terms of where it sits on the neck.
I think J. T. Adams' playing on "Kentucky Guitar Blues" is so strong, and nothing that he did on his duo album with Shirley Griffith, where he is seconding Shirley pretty much the whole time, gave any kind of indication that he was capable of this kind of playing.  I sure wish he had been recorded more.
Here are the answers for Snooks Eaglin's "Brown Skinned Woman":
   * Snooks did play the song out of C position as you pretty much all had it.  Well done!
   * For the passage from :28--:33, here is what Snooks did:  He goes to an F chord, just prior to :28, resolving from there into first a Dm7b5,  0-1-1-1 on his top four strings, at :31, and then adding the first fret of the fifth string at :32, giving himself a Bb9, 1-0-1-1-1 on the top five strings.  The sound of this series of chords is just beautiful, about as pretty as it gets.  Dave had the sense of the move right on the money:  functionally, Snooks is essentially going from IV major, F, to IV minor, F minor.  What enables him to do the substitutions for the F minor is the fact that both Dm7b5 and Bb9 have the Ab note that is the minor third of the F minor chord.  That's where the crucial movement is when you go from IV major to IV minor, from the VI note of the scale, A in the key of C, which is the third of the IV major chord to the bVI note of the scale, Ab, which is the minor third of the IV minor chord.  You can do substitutions to color the sound differently as long as you preserve that VI to bVI sound.  Snooks obviously knew this well enough to play a couple of substitutions., and the listener is the beneficiary of his knowledge and creativity.
   * For Snooks move from 2:37 to 2:38, he is just gong from a C add 9, X-3-2--0-3-X to a C chord, X-3-2-0-1-X.  Who would have thought that such a simple move could sound so pretty, but it certainly does.

A couple of brief notes about Snooks' playing on "Brown Skinned Woman".  I'm not aware of any other guitarist, except perhaps for someone copying Snooks, who plays in this beautiful straight 12/8 feel, a sound I very much associate with New Orleans music and in particular, Fats Domino, as on "Blueberry Hill" and "I'm Walkin' To New Orleans".  The other thing is Snooks' singing on this tune kills me, it's so soulful.  What a treat!

Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoyed the tunes.  I'll try to find some other good puzzlers soon.
All best,
Johnm       
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on July 04, 2015, 01:51:22 PM
Pretty sure Adams' tune is in A standard, not Spanish. The IV chord played walking up on the sixth string to the second fret and in a root D7 position is one giveaway, along with the V chord sound.
You are probably right. I missed that clue entirely. My problem is, I hear G and I find a semi-reasonable solution and stop listening to other clues - I'm listening only to the parts John asked about after I think I've hit the right tuning.

Dave

And I usually listen for the tuning and key but am too lazy to figure out where all the runs go!
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 06, 2015, 04:02:55 PM
Hi all,
I've got two new puzzlers for you, both featuring musicians from the Carolinas.  The first is Floyd Council's "I Don't Want No Hungry Woman".  Here is the cut:

http://youtu.be/FRqeVxvDOMs?list=PLIYqCYvdIx5vyUIk3f8A2xt26Zi3EUnhL (http://youtu.be/FRqeVxvDOMs?list=PLIYqCYvdIx5vyUIk3f8A2xt26Zi3EUnhL)

INTRO

Lord, I can't see how these hungry women sleep
Lord, I can't see how these hungry women sleep
Walk the streets at night like a police on his beat

Yeah, they stand on the corner, 'til their feet get soakin' wet
Well, they stand on the corner, 'til their feet get soakin' wet
"Mister, if you ain't got a nickel, please give me a cigarette."

Now, I'm goin' down in Tin Can Alley and get drunk as I can be
Hey-ey-ey, get drunk as I can be
I don't want no hungry woman to lay their hands on me

SOLO

I done spoken to the Welfare, wrote to the government, too
I done spoken to the Welfare, wrote to the government, too
And I asked them to help me get my woman a pair of shoes

Hey, the Welfare didn't answer, government paid me no mind
Hey, government didn't answer, Welfare paid me no mind
"Before if you think we gonna help you, swear you better change your mind."

The questions on "I Don't Want No Hungry Woman" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Floyd Council use to play the song?
   * How does he finger what he plays in the bass from :20--:24?
   * What position does he start his solo at, around 1:34,  and where does he move away to before returning to the first position?

The second song is Rich Trice's "Come On Baby".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/NPf_tE_zTgw

INTRO

I been tellin', let me tell you, all the time
I had a woman done just like mine, then
REFRAIN: Come on, baby, just have some fun
And don't be uneasy, Lord, you hope your man not gonna run

She got some rosy cheeks, says, she smiles all the time
She got somethin', she can please my mind, then
REFRAIN: Come on, baby, just have some fun
And don't be uneasy, Lord, you hope your man's not gonna run

I don't drink no whiskey, baby, say now, I don't run around
I don't worry, mama, 'til my love come down, then
REFRAIN: Come on, baby, just have some fun
And don't be uneasy, Lord, your good man not gonna run

SOLO (Spoken: Yeah!  Play it then, boy!

Lay down, baby, say, close your eyes
Your daddy gon' give you somethin' gonna make you wise, say
REFRAIN: Come on, baby, just have some fun
And don't be uneasy, Lord, your good man not gonna run

Turn to the East, mama, turn to the West
Turn to one that you love the best, then
REFRAIN: Come on, baby, just have some fun
And don't be uneasy, Lord, your good man not gonna run

SOLO

Last night my baby says she, lays on the ground
Started lovin' don't 'low nobody 'round, then
REFRAIN: Come on, baby, just have some fun
And don't be uneasy, Lord, your good man not gonna run

The questions on "Come On Baby" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Rich Trice use to play the song?
   * Where does he fret his opening phrase, from :00--:07?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday morning, July 8.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on July 06, 2015, 04:13:39 PM
Hi John - looks like the 2nd link is a repeat of the first...  I thought it sounded familiar!

And Floyd Council does Fuller almost better than Fuller!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on July 06, 2015, 04:15:33 PM
Is this the Rich Trice tune?

https://youtu.be/NPf_tE_zTgw
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 06, 2015, 04:30:13 PM
Yes, that is the one, Frank.  Thanks for catching my blunder.  I fixed my original post so that people now have two choices for where to listen to "Come On Baby".  What abundance!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Zoharbareket on July 08, 2015, 07:27:52 AM
hi there,

Its been a while since I last tried this out, but?..here is what I make of 'Come on baby':

I think the Trices are playing in standard tuning, and it seems to me that the tune is played in the C position with the capo on the fifth??

The first few seconds of the song sound to me to be so something like this:
1. A quick slide to the 9th fret second string and the 7th fret first string, a few finger brushes on the 1st string 7th fret that might catch a bit of the second string as well..
2. then a quick slide to the 10th fret 2nd string and 9th fret 1st string, a cuick two brushes there,
3. one quick return on the first position (9th and 7th frets 1st and 2nd strings) and then..
4. I think he plucks the 2nd and 3rd strings on the 9th fret.


I might be COMPLETELY off, but that?s what I am hearing.

thanks!
Z
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on July 08, 2015, 10:12:54 AM
Floyd Council Don't Want No Hungry Woman
Standard tuning, tuned down more than a step.
The fingering for the bass at :20-:24 is probably the ring finger sliding up the 5th string from the 2nd fret to the 4th fret. The right
hand thumb is striking the string at the start for the pickup note, and end of the slide, downbeat coming when he plays at the 4th fret.
Then, 2 notes are the open 5th string on the 2nd and 3rd beats, then on the 4th beat, slide to the 4th fret and release to hammer off to
play the open string as a pickup note to the next measure. The next measure, play the 4th fret on the 1st beat, and open 5th string on
the beats the rest of the measure.
For his solo, he starts at 7th fret 1st string and 9th fret second string. He moves up to 9th fret 1st string and 10th fret 2nd string.
Alternatively, but I think less likely, he could play the same notes at the 12th and 13 fret using the 2nd and 3rd strings respectively,
and slide up to an A position at the 14th fret.

Rich Trice plays Come On Baby in Vestapol tuning, capoed up two frets or tuned up a step to approximately E.
The opening lick is played with pinched pickup notes on the 6th fret, 1st string, and 8th fret, 2nd string. Slide both those up one fret
to play the down beat and measure, then slide up a fret and play a pickup on the 8th fret, 3rd string followed by a pinched 9th fret 1st
string and 10th fret 2nd string. Slide all three fingers back for the next part, a pickup note on the 3rd string 6th fret, pinch the 7th
fret 1st string and 8th fret 2nd string, then play the 8th fret 2nd string by itself followed by the open 1st string. Repeat essentially
the same thing, this time sliding into the down beat pinch. The last part has an odd stutter in the rhythm that I don't think I can
explain, but the shapes remain the same.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on July 08, 2015, 12:08:37 PM
Floyd Council's 'No Hungry Woman' I'm going for E standard tuned about a step low.  I'm having trouble hearing the bass from :20--:24 but seem to be making out 4th fret/5th string, 2nd fret/4th string; open 5th string in there, so I'll hazard a guess at using the ring finger to catch the C# while holding an A7 at the 2nd fret, but there's more going on than I'm describing.  He starts the solo at 1:34 on the 2nd string/9th fret and 1st string/7th fret, moves up to the 2nd string/10th fret & 1st string/9th fret before moving back down to the previous shape then returning to his first position. I think this is pretty much as DaveK describes in his first option.

Rich Trice I'm hearing in C standard capo way up the neck.  From 0:00 to 0:07 I'm hearing, relative to the capo position, 1st str/3rd fret & 2nd str/5th fret moving up to 1st str/5th fret & 2nd str/6th fret back to the previous position ( similar to what Floyd Council does at 1:34) and finishing on open 1str & 1st fret/2nd str.

Hopefully I'll get chance to go back and listen some more to the Floyd Council.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 08, 2015, 12:25:17 PM
Agree with Old Man Ned for tunings, keys and positions. Away from home just now so unable to tackle the detail.

Sent from my KFARWI using Tapatalk

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 09, 2015, 06:04:13 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Floyd Council and Rich Trice puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on July 09, 2015, 03:02:29 PM
I could possibly give this a try tomorrow afternoon as I am not working tomorrow.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 10, 2015, 02:53:48 PM
Hi all,
I'm going to give the answers now because I'm very pressed for time and preparing to teach at a music camp.

For Floyd Coucil's "I Don't Want No Hungry Woman":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, though tuned a bit low.  I think of all of the responses on that tune selected that position, so well done!
   * From :20--24, he hits a third fret pick-up note on the fifth string, then lands the fourth fret of the fifth string under an A7 chord on beat one of the fifth bar of the form. He resolves to the open fifth string for beats two and three of that bar.  On beat four he does a quick hammer from the third fret to the fourth fret on the fifth string, and on the + of beat four he hits the open fifth string, dragging his thumb through for a brush stoke of the A7 chord on the first beat of the sixth bar of the form.  On beats two, three and four of the sixth bar he hits the open fifth string under the A7 chord.  This is substantially what Dave and Old Man Ned had, so well done!
   * Starting at 1:34, Floyd Council plays brushed triplets on the first two strings, a la Buddy Moss, fretting the second string at the ninth fret and the first string at the seventh fret.  He resolves that shape upward to a partial D shape, fretting the second string at the tenth fret and the first string at the ninth fret before returning to the previous position.  Dave and Old Man Ned had this move as well, so well heard, guys!

Everything I've heard from Floyd Council's early session has been strong, strong, strong, as Frank noted.  I transcribed his "Runaway Man Blues" for a lesson, and it was terrific, too.  His music is really worth seeking out, especially if you like East Coast blues.

For Rich Trice's "Come On Baby":
   * His playing position was C position, capoed up a ways, as Zohar, Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy had it.  Well done, guys!  Despite the way the video was labeled, only Rich Trice played and sang on this song.
   * For the passage from :00--:07, Rich Trice did the following:  He starts out at the fourth fret of the second string and the second fret of the first string, but quickly moves that position up one fret, to the fifth fret of the second string and third fret of the first string.  From there he resolves to a IV chord, fingered as a D shape at the fifth fret, getting the third string at the fifth fret, the second string at the sixth fret and the first string at the fifth fret.  The next position is the surprising one, for he moves that D shape down one whole step intact, to the third fret of the third string, the fourth fret of the second string and the third fret of the first string, an Eb chord (!), or a Cm7 chord minus its root.  From that chord, he hits the third fret of the first string followed by the open first string resolving to the first fret of the second string.  He then more or less repeats the series of moves starting from the fifth fret of the second string and the third fret of the first string.  I believe that Old Man Ned and Zohar had the 5-3 position and the 5-6-5 positions correct, but heard the third position as a return to 5-3 rather than the 3-4-3 that Rich Trice played.  One tip, Zohar: when you're describing how someone plays a passage in which a capo is being used, always describe the fret numbers relative to the capo placement.  That way, you could take the capo off the instrument and finger the frets as described and the passage will work.  If you describe frets in an absolute sense, the fingering won't make sense if you don't use a capo.
I think the sound of that lick, and especially the Eb chord is really arresting, and I hope folks will try it out.

Thanks to all of you who participated, and I'm glad to see you join in, Zohar.  On the piece you responded on, you had almost everything spot on, so I hope you'll be encouraged to participate on more puzzlers down the line.  I won't be posting a puzzler this next week, but will the week after, so here's a bit of a break if anybody is ready for one.  I hope you all enjoyed the tunes.

All best,
Johnm   
   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on July 10, 2015, 04:15:56 PM
Well, I know I got the sound of the Trice tune right, even though I used the wrong tuning!
Funny thing is, I keep suggesting all these solutions to puzzlers that use open or alternate tunings, and I practically never use them in my playing for pleasure. Weird. I do play drop D somewhat regularly though.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Zoharbareket on July 10, 2015, 11:34:35 PM
Thank you very much for the encouragement and the tips John, much appreciated! Glad I wasn't too far off.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 11, 2015, 12:17:34 AM
That Trice move to the Eb is nifty!  Will be stealing that one!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 19, 2015, 02:49:48 PM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is Lucious Curtis' "Train Blues", recorded for the Library of Congress.  We've already done another song by Curtis in this thread.  Here is "Train Blues":

http://youtu.be/bHhsZkEOEXA (http://youtu.be/bHhsZkEOEXA)

My baby caught the train I hate to see her go
My baby caught the train I hate to see her go
She goin' somewhere she never been before

Can't stay here, baby, all I have is gone
Can't stay here, baby, all I have is gone
You know by that, baby, I ain't gon' be here long

SOLO

I ain't got no rider, got no special kid
I ain't got no rider, ain't got no special kid
I ain't got nobody, baby, to be bothered with

Now, the train left town, hate to see you go
And the train left town, I hate to see you go
I ain't never had nothin', nothin' to hurt me so

SOLO

Can't stay here, baby, face all full of frowns
Can't stay here, baby, my face all full of frowns
Soon as I get straight, gonna leave this bad-luck town

The questions on "Train Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lucious Curtis use to play the song?
   * Where is Lucious Curtis fretting what is he striking with his thumb in the first four bars of his progression, from :17--:21
   * Where does he fret what he plays from :22--:24?

The second puzzler is Muddy Waters' field recording of "You're Gonna Miss Me When I'm Gone".  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/rYCXunVxFLg

Well, I'm gonna tell you, baby, I'm 'on' tell you low-down thing or two
I just can't stand the low-down way you do, but aww
REFRAIN: You gonna miss me when I'm dead and gone
Well, you gonna miss me, baby now, when I'm dead and gone

Well you know, I been feelin' blue, I been feelin' blue, baby, baby, all day long
I just been sittin' down here thinkin', wonder where in the world you gone, but hey,
REFRAIN: You gonna miss me when I'm dead and gone
Well, you gonna miss me, baby now, when I'm dead and gone

Well you know, I been feelin' blue, I been feelin' blue, baby, ever since the sun went down
I just been sittin' down here thinkin', wonder why don't you drive in this town, but hey
REFRAIN: You gonna miss me when I'm dead and gone
Well, you gonna miss me, baby now, when I'm dead and gone

Well I know you don't want me, I know you don't want me, 'cause your best friend, best friend told me so
But that's all right, gal, I can get a woman most anywhere I go, but hey
REFRAIN: You gonna miss me when I'm dead and gone
Well, you know you're gonna miss me, baby now, when I'm dead and gone

SOLO (Spoken: Yeah man, you know she gonna miss you.)

Well, now you know if the blues was whiskey, boys, and I was, I was a divin' duck
I would dive to the bottom, babe, and never, I'd come up, but hey
REFRAIN: She would miss me, boys, I'd be dead and gone
Aaah, she would have to miss me, man, rollin' in her home
 
 The questions on "You're Gonna Miss Me When I'm Gone" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Muddy Waters use to play the song?
   * Where did Muddy fret the fill he plays from :28--:34?
   * Where did Muddy fret the fill he plays from 2:44--2:45?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on the morning of Wednesday, July 22.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 22, 2015, 03:33:55 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Lucious Curtis and Muddy Waters puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on July 22, 2015, 09:44:28 PM
For Muddy, he's playing in Vestapol (I didn't check his pitch).

From :28-:34 he's on the fourth string, sliding into the 3rd, 5th and 7th frets, basically quoting "Dark Was the Night" for a moment. From 2:44-2:45 it sounds to me like he's using the slide to bar the top three or so strings at the third fret.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on July 22, 2015, 09:53:39 PM
Lucious Curtis sounds to me like he's playing out of A position.

from :17 to :21 it sounds like he's hitting the fifth string third fret and then the E at the fourth string second fret.

from :22 to :24 it sounds like he's sliding up to catch the A position partial D chord at the 5th and 7th fret of the first and second strings respectively, adding the 7th at the 8th fret of the first string.
Chris

PS Always appreciate being reminded of Lucious Curtis, hadn't listened to him in quite a while. Great stuff!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 23, 2015, 03:22:03 AM
Agree with banjochris for the Muddy one: Vestapol tuned a bit low. The fingerings are as Chris had them. For the Lucious Curtis one, I think A too, but I'm going to say he might also be playing this in Spanish capoed at 2nd fret. If this is the case, then for 17-21he might be sliding from 2nd to 4th fret of 5th str then sliding into 5th fret 4th str.  For 22-24 he could be playing a C chord on top 4 strings 5th fret with pinky hitting 8th fret and resolving to 5 fr 1st str. Alternatlvely, it could be exactly as Chris has it!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on July 23, 2015, 02:07:28 PM
I'm in agreement too with standard A for the Lucious Curtis' Train Blues.  Banjo Chris has pretty much summed it up.  I'm a long A barred at the 2nd fret as I'm occasionally hearing the high A at the 5th.  Between 17:21 I'm also hearing the open 5th string and E on the 4th string. From 22:24 I've convinced myself I'm hearing a C at the 8th fret so am going to suggest the partial D chord at the 5th & 7th frets on the top 2 string but with a movement of A, C B A on the 1string then the F" on the second string 7th fret.

Muddy Waters also agree in Vestapol tuned about a step low and moving between the open 4th string and 4th, 5th & 7th frets on the 4th string for 28:34. I'm also pitching the 2:44 - 2:45 at around the 3rd fret.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 24, 2015, 03:24:05 PM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intended to respond on the most recent puzzlers has done so, so I'll post the answers.
For Lucious Curtis' "Train Blues":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as everyone had it.  Well done!  The place in his rendition which most strongly points towards A position rather than Spanish tuning is the IV7 chord he plays in the tenth bar of the form.  It is the one commonly used in A blues, with the third and second strings fretted, respectively, at 2-1.  The very same sound for a IV7 chord in Spanish would be fretted at 5-3 on the fourth and third strings.  It wouldn't be that difficult to play, but I have never heard that voicing used for a IV7 chord in Spanish tuning.  Lucious Curtis did not do the thumb wrap to catch the sixth string at the second fret as most players do when playing that D7 chord in an A blues.  The other factor that really points towards A position in standard tuning rather than Spanish tuning is all the damping he is doing under his I chord in the first four bars of the form. In A standard, it was relatively simple for him to bounce his "long A" fingering, damping the back ends of his notes by doing so.  In Spanish tuning, he'd be working with all open strings, with the exception of the third fret of the fifth string and fifth fret of the first string, and to do the kind of damping he's doing on open strings would require a great deal more finesse.
   * In the passage from :17--21, he's doing a sort of inside-out alternation with his thumb, hitting the third fret of the fifth string on beat one, the second fret of the fourth string on beats two and four, and the open fifth string on beat three.  He sticks on two extra beats on the tail end of his fourth bar, for which he alternates between the open fifth string and the second fret of the fourth string.  This is very much what banjochris suggested.
   * In the passage from :21--:24, Lucious Curtis goes up the neck for his IV chord, D, using a position that John Hurt loved and used a lot:  seventh fret of the second string, fifth fret of the first string and eight fret of the first string at times, too.  This is what banjochris and Old Man Ned had.

For Muddy Waters' "You're Gonna Miss Me When I'm Gone",
   * His tuning was Vestapol, as all of you had it.  Spot on!
   * From :28--:34, Muddy plays his fill hitting the open fourth string, going from the fourth to the fifth and seventh frets, hits the open fourth string again, going from the fourth fret to the fifth fret twice, then going from the open fourth string to the fourth fret fourth string, returning to the open fourth string and striking the open sixth string, then sliding into the fourth fret of the sixth string followed by two open fourth strings.  As Chris pointed out, it's almost as though he is channeling Blind Willie Johnson, not only in his note choices, but also in his tone production and touch.  I was sort of gob-smacked when I first heard the passage.
   * At 2:44--2:45, Muddy frets the first two strings at the third fret, aping one of Robert Johnsons' favorite rhythmic motifs, hitting the two strings on the + of beat one, then playing them again in the next beat on the first three sixteenth notes of the beat, sustaining the third sixteenth note into the fourth sixteenth note.  This rhythm is not a triplet, and has a much more intense, less relaxed sound than a triplet.  It is largely responsible for the edgy "bundle of nerves" quality that Robert Johnson's playing had.

Thanks to banjochris, Prof Scratchy, and Old Man Ned for participating, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I will not be able to post puzzlers for the next couple of weeks, so we'll have a little hiatus here.  I hope everybody is having a good Summer.  It rained here today--HOORAY!  It's been deathly dry, so it was a welcome relief.
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 09, 2015, 10:55:04 AM
Hi all,
I have two new puzzlers for you, both featuring pretty obscure 12-string guitar specialists.  The first is "Dad" Nelson's "Red River Blues".  Here is his performance of the song:

http://youtu.be/K4Jmp1l7vxY (http://youtu.be/K4Jmp1l7vxY)

I was down Red River when the boat came along
I was down Red River when the boat came along
Says, it took my baby, it left me all alone

KAZOO SOLO

'Druther be in Red River, floating on a log
I'd rather be in Red River, floating on a log
Than to be 'round here and treated like a dog

Flow on, Red River, flow on
I said, flow on, Red River, flow on
You know you'll be flowing, while I'm dead and gone

Now, my baby, she's on the other side
Now, my baby, she's on the other side
I would swim Red River, but it's too deep and wide

GUITAR SOLO

The questions on "Red River Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did "Dad" Nelson use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret his intro, from :00--:09?
   * Expressed in the key of the playing position he used, what his chord progression under his kazoo solo, from:36--1:03?

The second song is Emery Glen's "Two Ways To Texas".  Here is his performance:

http://youtu.be/1kR0mmm5DIw (http://youtu.be/1kR0mmm5DIw)

Two ways to Texas, mama, don't you want to go?
Two ways to Texas, mama, don't you want to go?
Right down to Arizona, right back to Mexico

Now, baby, you can ride the train with me
Baby, you can ride the train with me
Woman, you must go with me, I'll tie you to a Texas steer

Tell me now, mama, want your black heart in my hand
If you tell me now, mama, want your black heart in my hand
I'll show you, woman, how to treat a poor man

Well, you done made me feel so awfully blue
You done made me feel so awfully blue
If you goes away and leave here, I don't know what I'll ever do

Two ways to Texas, mama, don't you want to go?
Two ways to Texas, mama, don't you want to go?
Right down to Arizona, right back to Mexico

Blue, baby, don't know what to do
I'm blue, baby, don't know what to do
Right down to Arizona, right back to Mexico

I'm blue, don't know what to do
I'm blue, babe, don't know what to do
Right down to Arizona, right back to Mexico

The questions on "Two Ways To Texas" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Emery Glen use to play the song?
   * Where did Emery Glen fret his signature lick, which he plays three times at the beginning of his rendition, from :00 to :05?
   * What was Emery Glen's chord progression for his first verse, from :06--:30?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday morning, August 11.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 11, 2015, 09:48:51 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the "Dad" Nelson and Emery Glen puzzlers?  Come on, come all!  Answer as few or as many questions as you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 11, 2015, 09:53:56 AM
I'm in France just now and a long way from the guitar. But to get the ball rolling I'll say F for the Dad Nelson one!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on August 11, 2015, 10:20:56 AM
"Two Ways to Texas" I'm hearing in C, standard tuning, with the opening like going from 5th string, 3rd fret 6th string, 3rd fret, 5th string 3rd fret.  The chord progression sounds like I, I7, IV, I, V, I...

Red River is confusing me a bit....I think it's capoed up 1 fret, and played in C, but...  The beginning lick sounds like it's going from 6th string 3rd fret, 5th string 1, 2, 3 then 4th string 2nd fret...


Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 11, 2015, 01:37:51 PM
For Red River Blues, I'm in agreement with Ross, C capoed up a fret.  For 00:09 In hearing open A string walking up to 2nd then 3rd frets, then sliding from the 1st fret of the 4th string to the 2nd fret and then landing on the C (3rd fret/5th string).  I'm hearing this 3 times but on the 4th time around he starts on the 3rd fret 6th string, walks up from the open 5th to 2nd then 3rd frets and ending with a couple of strums of a C chord.

That's as much as I've had time for today.  Hope to get back to the chord progression, but unfortunately I have a serious aversion to the sound of the kazoo.  To me it sounds like an instrument that has been sat on by a very heavy person....but that's probably just me.  Also hope to listen to Emery Grey track tomorrow if I get chance. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on August 11, 2015, 04:04:12 PM
Red River to me sounds like standard tuning, C shape capoed up one fret.
The opening lick is 3rd fret 6th string, 5th string open, 2nd fret 5th string, 3rd fret 5th string, slide into 2nd fret 4th string, 3rd fret 5th string.
Behind the kazoo solo, the changes are
C / / / | Dm / G7 / | C / / / | C / / / |
F / / / | F / / / | C / / / | Dm / / / |
G7 / / / | C / / / |

I haven't attempted the Emory Glen tune yet.
Ok, Two Ways to Texas, I agree with OE Ross, key of C, standard tuning. The opening lick is a kind of call and response: The bass plays C - G - C (3rd fret of 5th and 6th strings) and the response in the treble is 4th fret 2nd string, open 1st string and 1st fret 2nd string.
The progression is pretty standard except for a 2 beat bar 8.
C / / / | C / / / | C / / / | C7 / / / |
F / / / | F / / / | C / / / | C / |
G / / / | G / / / | C / / / | C / / / |

I cannot tell if the IV and V chords are seventh chords.
Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 12, 2015, 12:02:24 PM
Back onto Red River for the chord progression and Emery Glen's Two Ways to Texas.  I'm pretty much in agreement with Davek for my remaining answers.  I'm getting a bit thrown by the 2nd bar of the Red River chord progression though.  On first hearing I was thinking F / G7 /  but the F in the 2nd bar doesn't sound like the F's in bars 5 & 6.

Two Ways to Texas, C standard and I'm hearing the same signature lick as has already been posted.  The chord progression as in Davek's post up to the 8th bar but then I'm getting messed up by the G7 coming in early or there only being a 2 beat bar.   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 13, 2015, 09:54:48 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intended to respond to the "Dad" Nelson and Emery Glen puzzlers has done so by now, so I think I'll post the answers.
For "Dad" Nelson's "Red River Blues":
   * His playing position was D position in standard tuning.  The answers to the second and third questions will help clarify how the D position identification makes more sense in terms of sound than does C position.
   * "Dad" Nelson's intro begins with a 4 + pair of pick-up notes.  He strikes them at the open fifth string on beat 4, followed by a quick slide from the second fret of the fifth string to the fourth fret of the fifth string on the + of beat four.  For the first two full measures of the intro, he strikes the open fourth string on beat one, slides into the fourth fret of the fourth string on beat two, hits the open fourth string on beat three, and on 4 + goes from the open fifth string to a slide into the fourth fret of the fifth string.  In the third measure of the intro, he hits the open fourth string on beat one, on beat two slides into the fourth fret of the fourth string, on beat 3 + goes from the open fourth string to the open fifth string, and on 4 + goes from the second fret of the fifth string to the fourth fret of the fifth string.  In the fourth measure of the intro, he hits the open fourth string on beat one, and on beats two and three strums a D chord on the top three strings, allowing the strum on beat three to sustain into beat four.
The way "Dad" Nelson sets up his slides into the fourth fret of the fifth string and fourth fret of the fourth string, working out of D position, has a beautiful symmetry in the left hand--they are big slides, with some distance leading into the destination fret.  He almost makes them sound as though he does them with a slide, though he uses no slide.  Working out of C position, the destination fret for the slides would be the second fret of the fifth and fourth strings, and there is not enough space from the nut to the second fret on those strings for the slide to have the same kind of fetch and distance you can get playing out of D position.  And in D position, you can fret the two slides exactly the same way on the fourth and fifth strings, making good use of the open strings that precede each of the slides.  Try it out.
   * "Dad" Nelson's chord progression under his first kazoo solo is as follows:
   |    D    |  E7/B  A7  |    D    |    D   |
   |    G    | G/B  G/Bb | D/A    |    D   |
   |   E7    |    A7        |    D    |    D   |
What "Dad" Nelson played in the sixth bar of the progression points very strongly to D position because it has the IV chord moving from its major third to its flat third in the bass.  In C position, this would require going from A to Ab in the bass, a move that isn't too tough if you're just playing those single notes, but if you're following each of the bass notes with a treble strum of the chord, as "Dad" Nelson is, it is darned awkward to go from an open fifth string followed by a strum of an F chord in the treble to the fourth fret of the sixth string followed by a strum of an F chord in the treble.  The analogous move, played out of the D position, has the B to Bb movement in the IV chord, G, simply moving down the fifth string, from the second to the first fret, while continuing to hold down the third fret of the first string so that you can get the treble strums of the G chord.
I think "Dad" Nelson accompanied his singing beautifully, though certainly not in any flashy kind of way.  His chord voicings are nice, and his bass lines set up his chord progression well and keep the rhythm crisp.

For Emery Glen's "Two Ways To Texas":
   * The playing position was C position in standard tuning, as everybody had it.  Well done!
   * Emery Glen's signature lick is very much as Dave had it.  Glen hits the third fret of the fifth string on beat one, the third fret of the sixth string on beat two, on 3 + goes from the third fret of the fifth string to the fourth fret of the second string, and on 4 + goes from the open first string to the first fret of the second string.  Sometimes in his repetitions of the signature lick, Emery Glen added the first fret of the second string on the +s of beats one and two.
   * Emery Glen played a slightly different progression for his first verse than he used for the remainder of the song.  He played it like so:
   |    F    |    F    | C (Sig. Lick) | C (Sig. Lick) |    C7    |
   |    F    |    F    | C (Sig. Lick + 2 beats   |
   |   G7   |   C    | C (Sig. Lick) | C (Sig. Lick) |
In the F chords that open the first two bars of the first two phrases, he simply hits the F note at the third fret of the fourth string on beats one and three, followed by the same move from the fourth fret of the second string, the open first string and the first fret of the second string as is in the signature lick.  Emery Glen sets up the F chord in the beginning of the second phrase with the C7 fifth bar of the first phrase.  Glen is short in his second phrase, exactly as Dave and Old Man Ned noted, playing his signature lick only once following the IV chords, and then adding two extra beats to accommodate his vocal pick-ups for the last phrase.  In the second bar of the final phrase, he does a walk-down on his first two strings from 5-3 to 4-2 to 3-1 to 1-0.
I think it is interesting how straight-up-and-down Emery Glen's time was.  There is absolutely no underlying triple feel, it is a duple feel as far down as you wish to go, so it has no sort of "leaning forward" quality.  It is very similar to Charlie Kyle's time in that regard.  I find something kind of droll about Emery Glen's vocal delivery, a sort of humorous "Sadsack" quality.
Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I'll try to find some more songs that would make good puzzlers and post them soon.
All best,
Johnm             
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 13, 2015, 01:34:41 PM
Thanks for the explanation John.  Just when I thought I was getting the hang of this 'What's this musician doing malarkey!  Scuppered by Dad Nelson's D position! Thanks again
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 13, 2015, 03:05:13 PM
Ha!  Don't be too hard on yourself for not guessing D position, Ned.  It was a position that was notably passed over by many or most Country Blues players, included some really versatile players who recorded a lot of titles.  Included in the "Not a single song recorded out of D position in standard tuning Club" would be Lemon Jefferson, Charlie Patton, Luke Jordan, Libba Cotten, Blind Blake, and a host of others.  Players who liked and gravitated toward D position in standard tuning, like John Hurt, were a tiny minority among Country Blues players. 
There is a pretty interesting thread (if you're interested in that sort of thing) called "Notable omissions", at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=4393.0 (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=4393.0) , which looks at a bunch of players and the playing positions/tunings they recorded in, noting by process of elimination the playing positions/tunings they did not record in.  I suppose it's kind of esoteric stuff, but you can find out some interesting and occasionally surprising stuff by taking such questions into account.
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 17, 2015, 10:58:34 AM
Hi all,
I have two new puzzlers, both featuring a fairly obscure musician, Bob Coleman.  The first track is the Cincinnati Jug Band and Bob Coleman doing "Tear It Down".  Here is the song:

http://youtu.be/fpW9AjRlqbQ?list=PLyn_thCb1Z-JQEgUwDDfg6ZuP5K8K1JC2 (http://youtu.be/fpW9AjRlqbQ?list=PLyn_thCb1Z-JQEgUwDDfg6ZuP5K8K1JC2)

REFRAIN: I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (a-bed slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
Now if I catch another mule kickin' in my stall,
Mama, gonna tear 'em down

Now, they bake them biscuits nice and brown
You know by that you got another high brown
I've got a brown, she's little and low
She's a todalo shaker anywhere she goes
Now, if I catch another mule in my stall
Mama, gonna tear 'em down

REFRAIN: I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
Now if I catch another mule kickin' in my stall,
Mama, gonna tear 'em down

Now, you drink your whiskey, have some fun
Let's run like hell when the police come

REFRAIN: I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
Now if I catch another mule kickin' in my stall,
Mama, gonna tear 'em down

SOLO X 2

I had a girl, her name was Lise
Every time you slapped her, she would holler, "Police!"
Cooked them biscuits, nice and brown
Think she's a workin' when she's turnin' around
Catch another mule kickin' in my stall
I'm gonna tear it down

REFRAIN: I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
Now if I catch another mule kickin' in my stall,
Mama, gonna tear 'em down

Told my girl, the week before last
That the gait she's carryin' me is most too fast
I went to the river, take my rockin' chair
The blues overtake me rock away from here
Catch another mule kickin' in my stall
I'm gonna tear it down

REFRAIN: I'm gonna tear 'em down (slats)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
I'm gonna tear 'em down (bed slats and all)
Now if I catch another mule kickin' in my stall,
Mama, gonna tear 'em down

SOLO

The questions on "Tear It Down" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Bob Coleman use to play the song?
   * Name another song (not necessarily using the same playing position) that has the same chord progression and substantially the same melody as "Tear It Down".
   * What is the response line on the refrain of the song, sung in response to "Tear it down"?

The second puzzler is Bob Coleman's "Sing Song Blues".  Here is his performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/m3vKrJ5njcw

Is you ever been down, mama, you know just how I feel
And is you ever been down, little mama, you know just how I feel
And is you ever been down, little mama, I swear you know how a prisoner feels
I ain't got nobody on outside to play in the field

And I laid in prison with my face turned to the wall
And I laid in prison, my face turned to the wall
And I laid in prison, with my face turned to the wall
There's a no-good Crow Jane woman was the cause of it all

And it's a many old days I dropped my weary head and cried
And it's a many old days I dropped my weary head and cried
And it's a many old days I dropped my weary head and cried
I did not have no blue blues, mama, just wasn't satisfied

It's pull on your race horse, put on your derby, too
It's pull on your race horse, put on your derby, too
It's pull on your race horse, mama, it's put on your derby, too
I ain't got nobody, this wide world, to love me true

And I looked in the death cell and dropped my weary head and cried
And I looked in the death cell and dropped my weary head and cried
And I looked in the death cell, and I dropped my weary head and cried
I told the Sing Sing Prison boys, "This ain't like being on the outside."

And if it hadn't been for you, little mama, I would not been here
And if it hadn't been for you, little mama, I would not been here
And if it hadn't been for you, oh little mama, I would not been here
I drinkin' wine, whiskey, mama, and your home-brewed beer

The questions on "Sing Song Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Bob Coleman use to play the song?
   * What left hand position is Bob Coleman using from :26--:29, and what chord is he playing then?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday morning, August 19.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on August 19, 2015, 07:28:13 AM
Tear It Down:
-Playing position is C, maybe a little flat
-It follows a similar pattern to Patton's Shake it and Break It (which was played out of F position)
-The response line in the chorus is "Bed Slats and All"

Sing Song Blues
-Playing position is G
-The chord at 0:26 is a C6, he's fingering the root at the 3rd fret of the fifth string and barring the first four strings at the fifth fret
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on August 19, 2015, 08:52:23 AM
Tearin' It Down would also be in the same "tune family" as Candyman. Now that's a pretty broad ranging tune family.

Anyone more into jug band music would be aware of the well known Whistler's Jug Band version, which was actually filmed, with a very clear "Bed slats and all" sung throughout.

Wax
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on August 19, 2015, 09:16:31 AM
Tear It On Down sounds like standard tuning, capoed up to the 5th fret to play in Bb out of F position.
The song with the same progression/melody escapes me...some Memphis Jug band or Frank Stokes?
The response line sounds to me like "It's best to know", but is very hard to make out.

Sing Song Blues is played in standard tuning, key of F, F position.
The chord at :26-:29 is a Bb6 chord. Probably fingered with first finger on 5th string 1st fret, little finger laid across the top three, maybe four, strings.
E-3
B-3
G-3
D-x
A-1
E-x

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on August 19, 2015, 10:36:09 AM
They're not identical, but I hear shared similarities between " Tear It  Down" and William Moore's "Ragtime Millionaire."
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on August 19, 2015, 10:52:38 AM
?Tear It Down? is played out of A position, capoed up (I don?t have a guitar with me to check the pitch). It starts on an E7 chord. The long A position (sliding into it) and the first position D chord are pretty clear.

Others have got the ?bed slats and all? and the similarities to ?Shake It and Break It? and ?Ragtime Millionaire.?

Davek has the position and chord of ?Sing Song? right, I do believe, with F position and a B-flat 6 chord.

Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 19, 2015, 12:16:07 PM
Tear it Down, I've been wrestling with and am not too confident with but I'm too hearing this with the capo up the neck a bit, around 5th fret.
I'm hearing the progression as IV / IV / I / I / IV / IV / I / I / V / I / IV / I.  Relative to the capo this puts it in F.  I too was reminded of Will Moore on first hearing but it reminds me most of Bill Broonzy's Saturday Night Rub.  Haven't got a Scooby about the response line.  Could just about make out "'n all", but yet 'Bed slat's an' all" sounds good!

Sing Song blues I'm hearing in F too.  Also agree with the Bb6 chord.  I'm hearing a Bb (1st fret, 5th string) in the bass and a bar at the 3rd fret catching the top 3 strings (Bb, D & G).
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 19, 2015, 01:35:16 PM
Whoops, typo in the above. Should be
V / V / I / I / V / V / I / I / IV / I / V / I
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 20, 2015, 06:23:54 PM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who was going to respond to the two Bob Coleman puzzlers has done so, so I'll post the answers:
For "Tear It Down":
   * Bob Coleman's playing position was A position in standard tuning, as banjochris had it--well done, Chris!
   * Songs that share the same chordal structure and melody (more or less) to "Tear It Down" would include Charlie Patton's "Hang It On the Wall", as Lastfirstface had it, William Moore's "Ragtime Millionaire", as Stuart had it, and Leadbelly's "Keep Your Hands Off Her".
   * The response line in the chorus is "bed slats and all".  I had a devil of a time hearing that.  What I heard was much closer to what Dave was hearing, "It's best to know", but then I found an old thread in the lyrics section on "Tear It Down" which gave the lyrics to the response line.  I don't know that I would have come up with that on my own.  I think that's really hard to hear on this rendition.

For "Sing Song Blues" (which I believe should be called "Sing Sing Blues", given the fact that it is a prison song):
   * Bob Coleman's playing position was F position in standard tuning as davek, banjochris and Old Man Ned had it--Well done!
   * The chord from :26--:29 is a B flat6, exactly as davek and Old Man Ned had it, and they had the fingering spot on, too.  Well done, guys!
Bob Coleman, if he was the same person as the Cincinnati musician Kid Cole, had a real predilection for playing out of F position, much as did William Moore.  It's worth mentioning, too, that "Sing Song Blues" belongs in the thread on songs that have the same melody as "Careless Love" or "Corinna, Corinna".

I hope you enjoyed the songs and I'll look for some more performances suitable for a puzzler, to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 26, 2015, 10:09:03 AM
Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers for you.  The first is by Myrt Holmes, "Run Here, Fairo [sic]".  Holmes was evidently Babe Stovall's older brother, and was recorded by David Evans.  Here is Holmes' performance of the song:

http://youtu.be/wtZ7BKutsm4 (http://youtu.be/wtZ7BKutsm4)

SOLO

Run here, faro, see what you done done
Run here, faro, see what you done done
You made me love you, now your man done come

Don't want me, hold up your right hand
Don't want me, faro, hold up your right hand
Take my woman, I will go back to your man

Dreamed last night, dreamed the night before
(Guitar plays line)
Dreamed last night, honey and I, baby, the night before

Don't want me, hold up your right hand
Don't want me, faro, hold up your right hand
Be my woman, honey, go back to your man

Ever dream lucky, wake up cold in hand?
Ever dream lucky, wake up cold in hand?
Mighty good sign your gal's got another man

SOLO

Run here, Hora, sit on my right knee
Run here, Hora, sit on my right knee
Let me tell you, troublin', wonder how you treat me

SOLO
 
The questions on "Run Here, Fairo" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Myrt Holmes use to play the song?  Please explain what it was about the sound that influenced your choice.
   * What is your best guess as to how he was doing his picking with his right hand?

The second song is Scott Dunbar's version of "Easy Rider".  Here it is:

http://youtu.be/vmu38Iv4OPw (http://youtu.be/vmu38Iv4OPw)

Dee-dee-dee, dee-dee-dah

Scat over guitar solo

Well, I'm goin' up town, want me to bring you back?  Just anything you think your baby like
Now, easy rider, don't you 'ny my name, dee-dee-dee

Well, go on, old gal, 'fore you make me mad, tell you somethin', what I ain't gonna have
Now, ain't gon' have no low-down hang-around, dee-dee-dee

Scat over guitar solo

Oh, Mama, Mama, just look at sis, standin' on the corner tryin' to do that twist
Now, easy rider, don't you 'ny my name, dee-dee-dee

Well, come here, sis, you one of them things, tryin' to be a woman and you don't know how
Now, dee, dee-dee-dee-dee-dah, dee-dee-dee

Oh, there 'h'ain't but one thing worry my mind, all these people, ain't nar' one mine
Now, easy rider, don't you 'ny my name, dee-dee-dee

Scat over guitar solo

Well, I'm goin' up town, want me to bring you back, just anything you think your baby like
Now, easy rider, don't you 'ny my name, dee-dee-dee

Scat over guitar solo X 2

Oh, it ain't but one thing worry my mind, all these people ain't nar' one mine
Now, easy rider, don't you 'ny my name, dee-dee-dee

Well go on mad, 'fore I make you mad, tell you somethin', what I ain't gonna have
Now, easy rider, don't you 'ny my name, dee-dee-dee

Scat over guitar solo X 2

(SPOKEN:  The old Crump.  That's old Crump.  That's old Papa Crump from back there, heh, heh.  That's there, the old . . . . )

The questions on "Easy Rider" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Scott Dunbar use to play the song?  What key is he playing in?
   * Outline the chord progression and bar structure that Scott Dunbar used to play his version of "Easy Rider".

Please use only your ears and your instruments to come up with your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time this coming Friday, August 28.  I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 28, 2015, 11:37:37 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Myrt Holmes and Scott Dunbar puzzlers?  Come one, come all, answer only the questions you feel like answering.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on August 28, 2015, 02:31:41 PM
?Run Here, Fairo? I believe is in E position, standard tuning. Holmes hammers on to the 3rd string first fret, which lets Vestapol out, he plays the IV chord root on the 5th string, which eliminates cross-note, and the V chord is the two-note Bm7 played on the 5th and 3rd strings (slid up to the 4th fret). I feel like I can hear the D note on the open 4th ringing out, which eliminates EAEGBE tuning. I don't hear a doubled E either when he goes up to the 7th and 8th frets on the 1st and 2nd strings.

His right hand is a bit unusual, he?s doing a ?half-bass? accompaniment on the bass strings, half of what Mance Lipscomb would play, similar to Charlie Manson on ?Nineteen Women Blues.? Other than that I don?t know what to say about his right hand.


?Easy Rider? is in C position, standard tuning, not sure where he?s pitched, but it doesn?t sound too far off of concert pitch to me.

Dunbar?s chord progression is highly unusual ? his bass run takes you from C down to A, but instead of playing an A chord after the A bass note (the usual VI chord), he plays a D chord (the II) and stays there for the normal length of both the A and D chords, before going to a normal-length G chord and finally back to C. Very odd.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on August 28, 2015, 04:20:16 PM
I'll hazard a guess on a one time listen of Run Here Fairo - E position based on what sounds like movement on the B7 V chord.

Thanks,
           Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 28, 2015, 04:59:03 PM
I agree with what banjochris wrote for both tunes. On the first one, the IV chord reminds me a bit of Lane Hardin who probably played in double E tuning, so I'll hedge my bets and not rule that out!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on August 28, 2015, 06:08:00 PM
I need to find more time to spend on these.  Agree "Run Here Fairo" is in E standard and it was the movement of the V chord that gave it away for me.  Reminded me of some other song, not sure , maybe Ishman Bracey "Saturday Blues"...?

I think I went "O Lord" for the Scott Dunbar tune - so good work Chris and Scratchy! :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on August 28, 2015, 08:10:08 PM
That Myrt Holmes tune is pretty cool, hadn't heard it before. (Scott Dunbar is always cool.)

Definitely E position as others have said. But it could be EAEDGE tuning. He's got that V chord without the 7th with that more open sound, moving from the 2nd to 4th frets. And like Scratchy said, there's a kind of Lane Hardin sound going on. He also slides up on the 5th string from a B into the E above (4th string), something that would be a bit easier in this tuning (around the 1:00 mark). Though like a lot of songs that use the tuning, not something that couldn't be accomplished without finger acrobatics in standard E. I need to go back and listen some more, because I am not hearing the D note that Chris says he thinks he hears.

Scott Dunbar is playing in the key of Totally Cool.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 01, 2015, 09:43:34 AM
Hi all,
Sorry to be so long posting the answers to the Myrt Holmes and Scott Dunbar puzzlers.  I wrote up a long answer Saturday morning, and when I went to post it we had a power outage so it was all lost.  Then, being away gigging kept me from answering.  In any event, here goes.
For Myrt Holmes' "Run Here, Fairo":
   * Playing position was E as everyone had it--the question being whether it was E position in standard tuning or EAEGBE tuning.  Vestapol and cross-note are eliminated from the running for the reasons Chris cited, the hammer to the major third on the third string, which eliminates Vestapol, and the low root of the IV chord on the fifth string, which eliminates cross-note.  I believe that Myrt Holmes played "Run Here, Fairo" out of EAEGBE tuning for the following reasons:
   1) I've listened to the track many, many times and have never heard a note struck on the fourth string other than the I note an octave above the open sixth string.  In E standard, the open fourth string would be a bVII note, D, and I don't hear that being sounded at any time in the rendition.  Moreover, that I note on the fourth string is never inflected; hammered or slid into from below.  Perhaps the most likely place for for the open D fourth string In E position standard tuning to have sounded is the passage from 1:22--1:29, where Myrt Holmes is brushing in the bass with his thumb rather than picking individual strings while playing up the neck, but in that passage he is just sounding the open sixth and fifth strings, hitting the I and IV notes located there, and never sounding the fourth string.
   2) The little closing phrase that Holmes plays at the end of several of his verses that uncle bud alluded to is considerably easier to play in EAEGBE than in E position standard tuning.  In the phrase, Holmes starts out hitting the I note on the fourth string, slides from the second to the fourth fret on the fifth string, and then returns to the I note on the fourth string.  You can hear him playing this phrase from :37--38, :59--1:00, 1:20--1:21 and 3:03--3:04.  In EAEGBE tuning, the only portion of the phrase that would have to be fretted would be the slide from the second to the fourth fret on the fifth string.  The I notes beginning and concluding the phrase would be open strings.  In E position standard tuning, all four notes would have to be fretted, not impossible, but a bit awkward, especially going from the fourth fret of the fifth string to the second fret of the fourth string at the tail end of the phrase.

EAEGBE is always a slightly tricky identification, because you're making it on the basis of an absence of aural clues that would be indicative of another playing position, most often E position in standard tuning.  In this instance, though, two crucial factors that would indicate E position in standard tuning, the bVII note open fourth string and/or the inflected I note on the fourth string are both absent, and everything else that Myrt Holmes does in the left hand would be easier and more logical in EAEGBE tuning than E position in standard tuning.  These factors combined with the Lane Hardin "St. Louis echo" that Prof Scratchy alluded to make EAEGBE tuning the more likely choice as the playing position Myrt Holmes used.

   * Myrt Homes for the most part is half-timing his bass, as Chris noted. striking the sixth and fifth strings on beats one and three of each measure.  In the treble, he is most often sounding, when he is at the base of the neck, either the first and third strings or the first, second and third strings.  His treble phrases are for the most part entering on the +s of his first and third beats, immediately after his thumb strikes the fifth or sixth string, so he is either bouncing his thumb from from the fifth or sixth string he is striking on beats one and three up to the third string on the +s of those beats to start his treble phrase, or he is using at least two fingers to play his treble phrases, because he often sounds the first and third strings without sounding the second string in between them.  He couldn't do that if he was employing brush strokes to play his treble phrase.  I think he is using thumb and two fingers; the notes he strikes in the bass have a weight and sustain that makes it seem implausible that he is bouncing up to the third string immediately following his striking of them.  I certainly may be wrong on this assessment--right hand choices are much trickier to figure out by ear than are left hand choices.

I would love to have an album's worth of material from Myrt Holmes.  I think "Run Here, Fairo" is a terrific piece, and it has a kind of "tip of the iceberg" quality to it that makes me suspect Myrt Holmes knew and played a whole lot more than what he showed on this one tune. 

For Scott Dunbar's "Easy Rider":
   * His playing position was C position in standard tuning, just as Chris and Prof Scratchy had it. 
   * His chord progression was also exactly as Chris had it.  Scott Dunbar was playing an 8-bar raggy progression that in the key of C would most often be phrased as:
   |    A    |    A    |    D    |    D    |
   |    G    |    G    |    C    |    C    |
As Chris noted, Scott Dunbar plays his D chord right across the first four bars of the form, never going to the A chord at the front end of the form, despite the melody note being A there!  We're so accustomed to people harmonizing a melody note as being the root of the chord behind it that Scott Dunbar's choice to harmonize the A melody note with a D chord, in which the A is the fifth of the chord, ends up sounding kind of exotic.  Perhaps uncle bud had it right when he said Scott Dunbar played in the key of Totally Cool.

Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoyed these puzzlers.  I'll look for some more to post soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 03, 2015, 08:47:44 PM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for you, both from Big Bill Broonzy, who is somewhat neglected nowadays, it seems.  The first tune is "Stove Pipe Stomp", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/K3ruK0quJ6o

The questions on "Stove Pipe Stomp" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Bill Broonzy use to play the tune?
   * Where did he fret the little bass run with which he transitions from his IV chord back to his I chord at :07--:08?
   * Where did he fret the bass runs he plays over his I chord from 1:15--1:19?

The second Broonzy song we'll be taking a look at is "Stump Blues".  Here it is:

http://youtu.be/RIrnUJvBXkU (http://youtu.be/RIrnUJvBXkU)

The questions on "Stump Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Big Bill use to play "Stump Blues"?
   * Explain how his signature lick sits in the pulse and describe where it is fretted.
   * What is he fretting for his IV chord, under his singing?

As always, please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at the answers to the questions, and please don't post your answer until 8:00 AM your time on the morning of Monday, September 7.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy Big Bill's songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 07, 2015, 03:28:36 AM
I'm going to guess dropped D tuning for Stove Pipe Stomp. When I say dropped D, it's hard to be certain, because of the way Big Bill mutes the 6th string. If it is dropped D, then that transitional bass slide could be from the second to the fourth fret of the sixth string (though I'm not sure that's right). For the bass riff I have 4str/bend 3>pull off 3>0; 5str/2> 4str/0





Stump blues E

double time on muted  bass
e string over which he plays in single time pinched open 6 and first str, then 3fr 2 str > open 2 str> open 3 str hammer on 1fr 3str>2fr 4 str
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 07, 2015, 12:06:10 PM
For Stove Pipe Stomp I'm going for D standard.  What's pulling me to standard tuning rather than Dropped D is around the 47 sec mark I'm hearing a slide into the F sharp on the 6th string, followed by an open 5th string, which, if I'm hearing that right would be an easier fit to play than a slide from the 3rd to 4th fret if it were dropped D tuning.  Plus in other places I'm hearing the F sharp without the slide and am figuring it's just played by hooking the thumb over the neck at the 2nd fret.

The wee bass run between 07:08, is that just a slide up to the 5th fret on the 6th string from the 3rd fret, followed by an open 5th string? Between 1:15 - 1:19 I'm hearing:
on 4th string: bent at 3rd fret, 2nd fret pull off to open string.  5th string, 2nd fret; 4th string open, then bent at 3rd fret x2, 2nd fret pull off to open string.  5th string, 2nd fret; 4th string open.  This is repeated.
The above is a sort of simplified version as I'm hearing a bit more going on in their but haven't got to the bottom of it yet.

Stump blues I'm hearing in E standard. The closest I've come to the signature lick is:
0  - 0 0 -  -  - - -
-  - -  - 2  0 -  - -
-  - -  - -  -  1 - -
-  - -  - -  -  - 2 -
-  - -  - -  -  - -  -
0 0 0 - 0  0 0 0 0

Though not too confident I've got the open 6th string bass notes (pulse?) in the right place.  The fretting over the IV chord, Is this just a boogie pattern around the A chord barred at the 2nd fret?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 08, 2015, 08:59:56 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Bill Broonzy puzzlers, "Stove Pipe Stomp" and "Stump Blues"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on September 08, 2015, 09:18:45 AM
Nothing really new to add but I'll cast a vote for Stove Pipe Stomp being in D standard tuning.

I'll vote for Stump Blues in E based primarily on the hammer to the G# on the third string as a lick common to that position - plus the signature lick sounds remarkably close to Shirley Griffith's ending lick in River Line Blues.

And a brief comment - what an incredible voice!

Thanks,
            Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on September 08, 2015, 10:12:06 AM
I concur with previous posters:

Stove Pipe Stomp - D standard
Stump Blues - E standard
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 08, 2015, 11:14:27 AM
I'm going to ditch dropped D and go for D standard too. Still can't get that bass sllide to sound just right though! On Stump Blues, I forgot to say that under the singing for IV chord he's slapping down on the open 5th, then 5th at fourth fret> 4th at 2nd fret, then back to 5th at 4th fret. He rocks this sequence under his vocal.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on September 08, 2015, 02:57:32 PM
Stump Blues

Yes I'm sittin on this old stump baby got a worried mind
Yes I'm sittin on this stump baby I've got a worried mind
Yeah I'm gonna find my baby Lord or lose my life a tryin

Yeah I shot five dollars caught a point like nine
Yes I shot five dollars even I caught a point like nine
Yeah I stopped that six bar baby and that trey come flyin

Yeah I hear my hamstring a poppin my collar cryin
Lord I hear my hamstring a poppin baby 'n I hear my collar cryin
Now how can I stay a happy Lord when my baby's down the line

Yeah you never get to do me like you done my buddy Shine
No you'll never get to do me like you done my buddy Shine
You know you worked him down the levy until he went real stone blind


Thanks,
            Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on September 08, 2015, 03:27:24 PM
On "Stove Pipe," Bill also often walks or slides from F# to G on the 6th string right before playing the IV chord section, which would be damn awkward in drop D, so standard D is my vote as well. (You can hear the walk up right after the "bass lick" part especially.) He also does a thumb drag from the G to the B on the 5th string quite a bit. The "bass lick," which Ned described earlier, is the same lick Bill plays with a flat pick in "I Can't Be Satisfied."
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 09, 2015, 03:50:11 AM
Quote
He also does a thumb drag from the G to the B on the 5th string quite a bit./i]

?
Now I'm further foxed...Would really like to learn this one though, so roll on Johnm's answer!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on September 09, 2015, 09:21:24 AM
Quote
He also does a thumb drag from the G to the B on the 5th string quite a bit./i]

?
Now I'm further foxed...Would really like to learn this one though, so roll on Johnm's answer!

To clarify, I meant from the G on the 6th string to the B on the 5th, just the normal bottom of a G chord.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 09, 2015, 10:01:52 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for your responses, and I think as many people as intended to respond have done so, so I'll post the answers.

For "Stove Pipe Stomp":
   * Playing position was D position in standard tuning as Old Man Ned had it, and everyone else ended up choosing as well--well done!  Just as a matter of interest/question, I'm not aware of any recordings of Big Bill Broonzy playing in dropped-D tuning.  He was very prolifically recorded, though, and there are large portions of his recorded repertoire that I've never heard.  Does anyone know of anyone recordings of his that are in dropped-D?  If anyone could post such a recording, or a link to one, I'd be most interested.  In making the identification for "Stove Pipe Stomp", the two factors that argue most decisively for D in standard tuning versus dropped-D are:
   1) He never hits a low D note on his sixth string in the bass; and,
   2) He consistently voices his IV chord as a G7 with its root in the bass and fingering its seventh at the first fret of the first string, while also catching the third fret of the second string in the G7.  Such a combination of notes sits very naturally in D standard, where you can get the third fret of the sixth string with the third finger, the second fret of the fifth string with the second finger, the third fret of the second string with the little finger and the first fret of the first string with the index finger.  In dropped-D, the same combination of notes becomes very implausible in terms of the reaches that would be involved in the left hand.  The thumb roll that Big Bill plays, from G on the sixth string to B on the fifth string that banjochris alluded to can be heard at :20, :35 and elsewhere throughout the course of the song, and would be right awkward to play in dropped-D tuning, too.
   * At :07-:08, Big Bill transitions from his IV chord back to his I chord by sliding from the third fret of the sixth string to the fourth fret of the sixth string on beat 4+ of the sixth measure of his form, landing on the open fifth string with his thumb in the right hand on the downbeat of the seventh bar, thus voicing his I chord, D, with its fifth, A, in the bass there.  This is pretty much exactly as Old Man Ned had it, so well done, Ned!
   * From 1:15 to 1:19, Big Bill is playing over the first four bars of his form, all on the I chord.  He starts his bass runs on beat 2 of the first bar, bending the fourth string at the third fret.  On beat 3 of that bar, he plays a triplet, pulling off from the second fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string and then hitting the second fret of the fifth string.  On 4+, he goes from the open fourth string to the second fret of the fifth string.  The second bar is the same as the first, except that instead of having a rest on the first beat, Big Bill bends the third fret of the fourth string.  The third bar is the same as the second bar, except Big Bill substitutes an open fourth string for the first beat.  The fourth bar is the same as the second bar, except Big Bill substitutes the second fret of the sixth string for the second fret of the fifth string on the + of beat 4, sliding from that second fret of the sixth string on the + of beat 4 up into the third fret of the sixth string for the downbeat of the fifth bar, where the IV chord arrives.  That movement from the second fret of the sixth string up into the third fret of the sixth string is the F# to G movement that Chris alluded to.  For his bass runs in the first four bars, Big Bill gets a crisp rhythmic emphasis by always dragging his thumb from a lower string into the next higher string, where that happens, in one continuous motion, rather than winding up and using two discrete motions for the different strings.  Using two motions would be too slow, but even if it were in time, the sound would be much more choppy and have less flow.

For "Stump Blues"
   * Playing position was E in standard tuning as all had it--well done!
   * Big Bill plays a monotonic bass on the open sixth string for his signature lick, in double time, hitting 1+2+3+4+ with his thumb, as Prof Scratchy had it.  Because he is hitting eighth notes in his bass, Big Bill works with smaller subdivisions of the time in the treble.  He hits the open first string on the + of beat 1.  His beat two timing is very syncopated--he hits the open first string on the sixteenth note in between 1 and +, and re-hits the open first string on the sixteenth note in between the + of beat 2 and beat 3.  On beat 3, he plays two pinches in the treble against the open sixth strings on 3 +, going from the second fret of the second string to the open second string.  On beat 4 +, he hits two pinches as well, going from a double rolled hammer to the first fret of the third string on beat 4 and resolving to the second fret of the fourth string on the + of beat 4.  This is substantially as Old Man Ned had it.  I should say that licks like this sit so naturally in the left hand that they are most often easier to pick up by ear than by using a description of how the move is executed.
   * Under his singing over the IV chord, Big Bill played just what Prof Scratchy had:  a boogie bass in A with a kind of
1 +a 2 +a 3 +a 4 +a rhythm, hitting the open fifth string on beat 1, the fourth fret of the fifth string on beat 2, the second fret of the fourth string on beat 3 and returning to the fourth fret of the fifth string on beat 4.  On the "+a" portions of the lick, he does a little down up strum of his A chord, emphasizing the third and second strings.

Thanks to Scott for locating a video of Big Bill playing "Stump Blues" and for transcribing the lyrics.  Here is the video, noting that in this version, Big Bill sometimes hits the third fret of the second string rather than the second fret of the second string on beat three of his signature lick:

http://youtu.be/N-pShRISHnQ (http://youtu.be/N-pShRISHnQ)

Thanks to all who participated.  I hope you enjoyed the tunes and figuring out how Big Bill played them.  I'll look for more good candidates to post as puzzlers in the near future.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 12, 2015, 10:03:13 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is Kokomo Arnold's "Sister Jane Cross The Hall".  I don't usually think of slide players as being dance musicians, but Kokomo Arnold sets that idea on its head.  Man, could he groove!  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/DE8uktpgPiU

Says, old Sister Jane, right 'cross the hall, she got good stuff but no mule in her stall
REFRAIN: Old Sister Jane, right across the hall
Oh, she drinks her liquor and she sure, God, has a ball

She smokes cigars and cigarettes, too, she don't do nothin' but ballyhoo
REFRAIN: Old Sister Jane, right across the hall
Oh, she drinks her liquor and she sure, God, has a ball

Let's go to the drug store and get some wine, come back to Sister Jane's, have a whompin' good time, at
REFRAIN: Old Sister Jane's, right across the hall
Oh, she drinks her liquor and she sure, God, has a ball

Now, come on, boys, get up and shout,'cause none of you know what it's all about, 'cause
REFRAIN: You ask Sister Jane,right across the hall
When she drinks her liquor you know she got to have a ball

SOLO

Now, guess I've nixed out and caught my broom, for I done got drunk but I ain't got no room
REFRAIN: Over to Sister Jane's, right across the hall
Oh, she drinks her liquor and she sure, God, has a ball

She got a kitchenette and apartment, too, she don't do nothing but ballyhoo
REFRAIN: Old Sister Jane's, right across the hall
Oh, she drinks her liquor and she sure, God, has a ball

Now, when I'm 'sleep I lay flat on my back,you come in drunk with some of your wise old cracks, from
REFRAIN: Sister Jane, right across the hall
When she gets full of her liquor, you know she got to have a ball

Now, her build is like a big ship at sea,you're always duckin' and dodgin' poor me
REFRAIN: Over to Sister Jane's, right across the hall
Oh, she drinks her liquor and she sure, God, has a ball

SOLO

The questions on "Sister Jane Cross The Hall" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Kokomo Arnold use to play the song?
   * Where does Kokomo Arnold fret the fills he plays from :12--:13 and from :15--16?  How does the pitch vary slightly between the two fills and what is the difference in the chords underneath the two fills that might help to explain the difference in pitch?
   * Where does Kokomo Arnold fret the "down-and-back" chordal fill he plays from :27--:29?
   * Where does Kokomo Arnold fret the note he is leaning on at the beginning of his solo, from 2:19--2:23, and what is the note relative to the chord over which it is played?

The second puzzler is Arthur Crudup's "Death Valley Blues", one of his few recordings I've heard on which he played an acoustic guitar.  Mr. O'Muck's posting of Crudup's "Mean Ol' Frisco Blues" in the "SOTM" thread reminded me how little of Arthur Crudup's material has been figured out and played as he played it.  Here is "Death Valley Blues":

http://youtu.be/0pOEgW9v8UA (http://youtu.be/0pOEgW9v8UA)

I went down in Death Valley, ain't nothin' but tombstones and dry bones
I went down in Death Valley, nothin' but tombstones and dry bone
That's where poor me'll be, Lord, when I'm dead and gone

Now, if I should die, and should die before my time
Baby, if I should die, and should die before my time
I want you to bury my body down by that 'Frisco line

Now, bury me, mama, low down in the sand
Ahh, bury me, mama, low down in the sand
Now, bury me, mama, where I won't bother your next old man

Ahhhh, bye-bye, baby, I said good-bye
Ahhhh, bye-bye, baby, I said good-bye
Death Valley is my home, mama, when I die

Tell all these women, please come dressed in red
Tell all these women, please come dressed in red
They goin' down on 61 Highway, that's where the poor boy, he fell dead

Wear your patent leather slippers, mama, put on your morning gown
Wear your patent leather slippers, put on your morning gown
You gwonna follow poor Crudup, down to his buryin' ground

The questions on "Death Valley Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Arthur Crudup use to play the song?
   * Where are the two notes that he is rocking back and forth in the bass between :32--:35 found on the fingerboard?
   * Where did Arthur Crudup fret the run he plays from :50--:53?
   * Where did Arthur Crudup fret his "secret weapon" chord which he plays at 1:18, 1:21, 2:20 and 2:22?
   * Where on the fingerboard is the note found which Arthur Crudup is leaning on in the bass under his IV7 chord from 2:58--3:01?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to answer the questions, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, September 14.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs and figuring out what Kokomo Arnold and Arthur Crudup were doing.  Remember, you need not answer all the questions, just the ones you're inclined to answer.
All best,
Johnm
   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 14, 2015, 08:02:46 AM
Tough ones!

  * What playing position/tuning did Kokomo Arnold use to play the song? Vestapol
   * Where does Kokomo Arnold fret the fills he plays from :12--:13 and from :15--16?  How does the pitch vary slightly between the two fills and what is the difference in the chords underneath the two fills that might help to explain the difference in pitch? 1str 3>2>0;2str 2>1str 0; first riff is on top of IV chord; second riff is on top of I chord
   * Where does Kokomo Arnold fret the "down-and-back" chordal fill he plays from :27--:29? - xxx120>xxx210>xx120
   * Where does Kokomo Arnold fret the note he is leaning on at the beginning of his solo, from 2:19--2:23, and what is the note relative to the chord over which it is played? - slide into 9th fret of first string

 * What playing position/tuning did Arthur Crudup use to play the song? - Crossnote
   * Where are the two notes that he is rocking back and forth in the bass between :32--:35 found on the fingerboard?      -6th and 5th str open x2>open 6th str and 5th str 2nd fr x2;open 6th and 5th x1
   * Where did Arthur Crudup fret the run he plays from :50--:53? -pass!
   * Where did Arthur Crudup fret his "secret weapon" chord which he plays at 1:18, 1:21, 2:20 and 2:22? - 0xx78b0
   * Where on the fingerboard is the note found which Arthur Crudup is leaning on in the bass under his IV7 chord from 2:58--3:01? - 6th string 4th fret?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 15, 2015, 06:45:12 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Kokomo Arnold and Arthur Crudup puzzlers?  Come one, come all--answer only the questions you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 16, 2015, 07:45:56 AM
Come on, folks! I don't want to suffer public humiliation alone!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on September 16, 2015, 10:22:37 AM
Sorry, Prof.  Didn't get a chance to work on this one, had to attend to a family crisis and then working on some B Blake tunes.  Looks like you're on your own here.  But, I'll support you and say  "Yep, what he said."
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 16, 2015, 11:23:25 AM
Thanks for the support, O-eR ! Hope the crisis worked itself out.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on September 16, 2015, 02:16:53 PM
I'm painfully unexperienced with the tunings proposed, but I think I'll agree with the professor.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 16, 2015, 02:36:18 PM
Hasty, Pan! Hasty.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 16, 2015, 05:22:23 PM
Hi all,
I'll give the Kokomo Arnold and Arthur Crudup puzzlers until tomorrow night and if nobody besides Prof Scratchy has responded by then I'll send him the solution in a personal message.  Fair enough?
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on September 17, 2015, 04:43:36 AM
Aw no, please post the answers. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I don't enter the WITMD lists (I just don't have those analytical skills) but I'm always interested in the answers ... especially if they're pieces that I've had a crack at or even ones that are in my  repertoire. It's amazing what one can learn.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on September 17, 2015, 06:04:51 AM
Some additions on my previous post:

Quote
The questions on "Sister Jane Cross The Hall" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Kokomo Arnold use to play the song?
-Vetapol
   
Quote
* Where does Kokomo Arnold fret the fills he plays from :12--:13 and from :15--16?  How does the pitch vary slightly between the two fills and what is the difference in the chords underneath the two fills that might help to explain the difference in pitch?
- The fill is played on top two strings. He starts with the 3rd fret on the 1st string, goes down to the 2nd fret, and open 1st string; then to the 2nd fret on the 2nd string; then returning to the open 1st string. The lick is first played against the IV chord,  fretted 0-2-0-1-2-0. The second time around the fill is played against the I chord (all open strings), and he slightly bends up the 1st note on the 3rd fret, to create a blue note against the I chord.
Quote
   * Where does Kokomo Arnold fret the "down-and-back" chordal fill he plays from :27--:29?
- Sounds to me, like he is just moving the fretted notes in the abovementioned IV chord down one fret, and then back up. Together with the open strings this creates a nice effect.
Quote
   * Where does Kokomo Arnold fret the note he is leaning on at the beginning of his solo, from 2:19--2:23, and what is the note relative to the chord over which it is played?
- On the 9th fret of the 1st string, I think. The note is the major 6th of the chord.

The German copyright organization, GEMA is not letting me open the Crudup video. I managed to open it last night with YouTube Unblocker, but for some reason it doesn't work today. I'm having increasingly these kind of problems with YouTube. I might try again later, unless Johnm has posted his answers.

Come on folks, join in!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 17, 2015, 06:26:46 AM
Another couple of links to the Crudup track for anyone in Germany. Maybe these  might work?
https://youtu.be/dCuYtag89co
https://youtu.be/xDjtM1rPryk
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on September 17, 2015, 07:36:23 AM
Thanks Professor. Incredibly, those links didn't work either!  :( No Crudup in Germany, if GEMA has his say!

I've found a version in Spotify, which is pitched at around B flat. I believe it's in Cross Note or standard tuning in E. I'll vote for Cross Note.

Either this is a different version than in YouTube, or the clock starts differently, since I have a hard time following what Johnm or the Professor are describing in relation with the clock. I'll make a few wild guesses nevertheless. :)

Quote
The questions on "Death Valley Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Arthur Crudup use to play the song?
- Cross Note
 
Quote
* Where are the two notes that he is rocking back and forth in the bass between :32--:35 found on the fingerboard?
- He seems to be rocking back and forth between the root and the flat 7th, the open 4th string, and the 3rd fret on the 5th string.

 
Quote
  * Where did Arthur Crudup fret the run he plays from :50--:53?
- I hear a run with triplets starting on the open 1st string, the open 2nd string and the 3rd fret on the 2nd string with maybe a slight bend for the 1st triplet. The second triplet starts again with the open 1st string, then comes 2nd string 3rd fret, followed by an open 2nd string. This is followed by swung eighth notes, first a double stop with 2nd and 3rd strings fretted both at the 2nd fret, then followed by the open 4th string. The last note is then repeated to finish the run.
Quote
   * Where did Arthur Crudup fret his "secret weapon" chord which he plays at 1:18, 1:21, 2:20 and 2:22?
-Could that be something like 0-0-0-9-8-9 ?
Quote
   * Where on the fingerboard is the note found which Arthur Crudup is leaning on in the bass under his IV7 chord from 2:58--3:01?
- 2nd fret on the 5th string?

Here's the Spotify link. Can anyone confirm if it's the same version?

spotify:track:1QLfszNOlM4REVPnBi9CaK

Cheers

Pan

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: uncle bud on September 17, 2015, 03:57:11 PM
Agree with most of what the Perfesser says with one or two differences
   * What playing position/tuning did Kokomo Arnold use to play the song?  -- Vestapol
   * Where does Kokomo Arnold fret the fills he plays from :12--:13 and from :15--16?  How does the pitch vary slightly between the two fills and what is the difference in the chords underneath the two fills that might help to explain the difference in pitch?
- He plays 1st string 3rd fret to 2nd to open to 2nd string 2nd fret to open 1st. Second time around he frets a bit higher on the first note pushing into the 4th fret. Because he's not fretting the IV chord, his hand is free to do this.
   * Where does Kokomo Arnold fret the "down-and-back" chordal fill he plays from :27--:29? x2x120>x1x010>x2x120.
   * Where does Kokomo Arnold fret the note he is leaning on at the beginning of his solo, from 2:19--2:23, and what is the note relative to the chord over which it is played?   Slide into 9th fret. It's the sixth of the I chord.

Haven't got to Death Valley yet but boy I love that tune.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 18, 2015, 09:01:02 AM
Hi all,
I suspect everyone who intends to respond to the Kokomo Arnold and Arthur Crudup puzzlers has done so so I'll post the answers.  Thanks to Pan and uncle bud for joining Prof Scratchy in responding to these puzzlers, which judging from participation are a bit more difficult than usual. 

For Kokomo Arnold's "Sister Jane Cross The Hall":
   * Tuning/playing position was Vestapol as all who responded selected--well done!
   * The fills from :12--:13 and from :15--:16 are pretty much as described by all who responded.  It sounds to me as though Arnold is doing all of his fretting on his first string with his slide because of the metallic sound of his attack.  Basically the notes are third fret, second fret, open, all on the first string to second fret of the second string back to the open first string.  The first fill is over the IV chord, and the third fret of the first string is the bVII of that chord.  The second fill is over the I chord, and the fourth fret of the first string, which he is just under with his slide is the major third of the I chord, so by tending toward the third fret of the first string over the fourth chord and closer to the fourth fret over the I chord he acknowledges the chord change.  All respondents picked up on this point--pretty cool!
   * The "down and back" chordal movement that Kokomo Arnold does from :27--:29 occurs over the IV chord, and it involves taking the way the IV chord is fretted on the four interior strings, 2-0-1-2, and moving each of the fretted strings down one fret, while keeping the open fourth string sounding through the change, so you get 1-0-0-1 on the interior four strings.  The net result of this movement is that you rock from a G chord (IV chord in Vestapol) voiced
3-5-R-3 to a Bb augmented chord (bVI in Vestapol) voiced R-3-#5-R.  Pan had this movement correctly analyzed in his response and I think uncle bud had the move figured out but made a typing error on the frets for the Bb augmented.  This is such a great sounding move in Vestapol, and I never heard it done before by anyone else.  It has the additional advantage of being easy, something I always appreciate!  Josh White, who specialized in Vestapol would go from the IV major chord to the IV minor on the interior four strings, 1-0-1-1, but I never heard him use the Bb sugmented that Kokomo Arnold used here.
   * All three respondents had the placement of the note that Kokomo Arnold leans on in his solo from 2:29--2:23 correct, the ninth fret of the first string, which is the 6th of the I chord, a very Jazzy sound, as Pan and uncle bud had it.

For Arthur Crudup's "Death Valley Blues:
   * Playing position/tuning was cross-note tuning as Prof Scratchy and Pan both had it--well done!
   * From :32--:35, Arthur Crudup rocks between his open fifth string and the third fret of the fifth string, with the open fifth string being the V of the I chord and the third fret of the fifth string the bVII of the I chord.  He hits the V note on beats one and three and the bVII note on beats 2+ and 4+.
   * Arthur Crudup plays his run from :50--:53 like so:  The run begins on beat two of the third bar of the form, and I would guess that he played it with his thumb in the right hand.  On beat two he plays a triplet going from the open first string to the open second and first strings brushed, then to the third fret of the second string.  On beat three he plays another triplet, going from the open first string to the third fret of the second string to the open second string.  On beat four, he plays one more triplet, brushing the top three strings while fretting the second fret of the third string on the first note of the triplet, barely audibly pulling off to the first fret of the third string for the second note of the triplet and finishing the triplet on the open fourth string.  This is very close to what Pan had for the run.
   * Arthur Crudup's "secret weapon" chord, played at 1:18, 1:21, 2:20 and 2:22 (and elsewhere) was fretted 7-8-9 on the first three strings, going from the third string to the first, left to right.  It is a perfectly amazing sounding chord, and is one of the hallmarks of Arthur Crudup's sound.  Those three notes, if analyzed relative to the I chord over which he sounds them are, coming from the third string, bVII-bIII-6 (or 13).  The chord is very fraught, because it combines essentially a Im7 chord on the second and third strings with a IV major chord on the first string.  Combining the I and IV chord as Crudup does here gives an unusually highly colored sound which makes his effect something very special.
   * From 2:58--3:01, Arthur Crudup plays the open fifth string under his IV7 chord, putting the fifth of the I chord in the bass under his IV7 chord.  Like his "secret weapon" chord, this sound combines elements of two different chords, his I and his IV7 chord.  So much for the notion that you need to voice the root of a chord in the bass.

I think there is an important lesson to be learned from Arthur Crudup's approach, which is that in a pared-back chordal setting as he characteristically played, with essentially no V7 chords ever, you can still get a tremendous amount of color by combining elements of the I and IV7 chords.  It certainly worked for Arthur Crudup!

Thanks to Prof Scratchy, Pan and uncle bud for responding to the puzzlers.  I'll look for another set to post soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on September 18, 2015, 09:18:31 AM
Quote
I think there is an important lesson to be learned from Arthur Crudup's approach, which is that in a pared-back chordal setting as he characteristically played, with essentially no V7 chords ever, you can still get a tremendous amount of color by combining elements of the I and IV7 chords.

You could say Crudup also adds color by combining 'V7 vocals' over a I chord (there is a better way to say this I'm sure).  It is an interesting choice and I know other country blues performers that do the same thing.  It's not as if Crudup etc don't know a V7 chord. Occasionally you'll hear maybe one root note of a V chord in passing.  It's not easy to do, being conditioned to play V7s, to 'sing V7 roots' while playing a I.    Any thoughts on this?  I don't think any modern blues players do this...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on September 18, 2015, 10:13:59 AM
"f  This is such a great sounding move in Vestapol, and I never heard it done before by anyone else. "

I believe William Harris uses this in a different context in his "Never Drive a Stranger From Your Door"
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 18, 2015, 12:08:29 PM
I don't think Willie Harris moves the whole shape down, Phil.  He certainly walks up from the open fifth string to its first fret and then the second fret to get into his IV chord a couple of times, but he never starts in the IV chord, moves the shape down a fret and then back up like Kokomo Arnold does on "Sister Jane Cross Cross The Hall".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 18, 2015, 12:44:00 PM
Your point about Crudup and other Country blues musicians (Sam Collins, Dr. Ross, Robert Pete Williams?) singing to a V7 chord that they are not playing is an interesting one, Slack.  And you're right that Crudup, and I know Robert Pete Williams did this too, would sometimes play only the root of the V chord but no other chord tones that would state the chord more explicitly.  I wonder if in such instances, our expectations sort of fill in the V7 chord and make us hear what they're singing as though it is acknowledging the un-played V7 chord?  It's kind of operating in the realm of the psychology of music.  When you think of a blues scale and how it works over the I, IV and V chords, it makes sense that a I chord would actually suffice for the entire progression.  Certainly some Hill Country players like R .L. Burnside and Junior Kimbrough operated that way on occasion.  I think where Crudup sounds really special is in the way he mashes up the elements of his I and IV7 chords.  That, and just being such a wonderful singer.
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 23, 2015, 09:20:07 AM
Hi all,
I realized that it has been a while since we had some puzzlers which only involved identifying the playing position/tuning for a few songs, and since the puzzlers have been somewhat involved and difficult lately, I thought that might be a welcome change.  And in terms of figuring things out by ear, getting the playing position/tuning right is more than half the battle; it's the most important step.

The first puzzler is Tarheel Slim's (Alden Bunn's) "180 Days", from his Trix album.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/hCd2J2CcWo0

NOTE:  The lyrics for "180 Days" can be found at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=8337.0 .

What playing position/tuning did Tarheel Slim use to play "180 Days", and what is it about the sound of the piece that influenced your choice?

The second puzzler is Frank Hovington's "90 Going North".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/LIsVWPAIgN4

What playing position/tuning did Frank Hovington use to play "90 Going North" and what is it about the sound of the piece that influenced your choice?

The third puzzler is Kid Cole's "Hey Hey Mama Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/6y6c24IKV7E

A-don't cry after who-me, sweet mama, when I'm gone
A-don't cry after who-me, Lordy, sweet mama, when I'm gone
A-don't cry after who-me, sweet mama, when I'm gone
Gonna miss your daddy rollin' in your arms

Oh, it's a rock in the mountains, and your casket's on the sea
Oh, it's a rock in the mountains, pretty mam', your casket's on the sea
Oh, it's a rock in the mountains, and your casket's on the sea
I ain't got nobody to love and care for me

And it's hey, little mama, and it's something's goin' on wrong
And it's hey, hey little mama, pretty mama, something's goin' on wrong
And it's hey, hey little mama, and it's something's a-goin' on wrong
I can tell you done quit me, a-by you stayed so long

And it's when I die, lay a deck of cards on my grave
And it's when I die, a-lay deck of cards on my grave
And it's when I die, a-lay deck of cards on my grave
And it's no more brownskins, Cincinnati, that I crave

And I'm goin' away, a-pretty mama, cryin' it won't be long
And I'm goin' away, pretty mama, cryin' it won't be long
And I'm goin' away, pretty mamam, cryin' it won't be long
Bet your typewriter, mama, a-type and find days I'm gone

I woke up this morning, a-with the same thing on my mind
I woke up this mornin', pretty mama, same thing on my mind
I woke up this morning with the same thing on my mind
Had a heart full of misery, mama, 'nough screamin' and cryin'

And it's hmmm, hmm hmm, and it's something a-goin' on wrong
And it's hmm, hmm, hmm, and it's something's goin' on wrong
And it's hmm, hmm, hmm, and it's something's goin' on wrong
I can tell you was quittin' me, baby, but you quit me wrong

Gonna place my left leg, a-sweet mama, up on your wall
Gonna place my left leg, pretty mama, up on your wall
I'm gon' place my left leg, and it's, honey, up on your wall
And you know by that, pretty mama, 'tain't makin' no stall

Edited 9/28 to pick up correction from Slack
 
What playing position/tuning did Kid Cole use to play "Hey Hey Mama Blues", and what is it about the sound of the piece that influenced your choice?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, September 25.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 25, 2015, 01:27:45 PM
Tarheel Slim's (Alden Bunn's) "180 Days":
I'm hearing E, standard tuning, about a half step low.  This one took me the longest, and I was originally thinking A, but listening to the intro, I was coming around to E. I'm hearing in the first 3 seconds, the run ending on the first fret 3rd string.  The opening 4 bars also pushed me go for E as I'm hearing the wee run through 17:19 secs out of E.

Frank Hovington's "90 Going North"
D out of Dropped D.  The alternating base at the start got me thinking Vestapol or Dropped D, but throughout I'm hearing the G and A chords as the IV & V chords.  Between 0:03 - 0:07 I'm hearing played out of the D shape at the 2nd fret.

Kid Cole's "Hey Hey Mama Blues".
I'm hearing G, standard about a half step low.  This is solely based on the first 3 secs where I'm hearing the G, D, B, G notes played on the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th strings respectively. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on September 25, 2015, 02:56:16 PM
My guesses:

180 Days is in Vestapol - based on the presence of the low D 6th string throughout such as when he goes to the IV chord. Also, the train whistle lick at 1st string fret 7 and 2nd string fret 8 around 1:56 against the low D.  I really love the trill opening lick in this song.

90 Going North - I'll agree with Old Man Ned that it is in Drop D.  The low D bass work stands out. There is also a slide into the V chord A at around 1:14 that is distinctive. Also, the train whistle lick at 1st string fret 5 and second string fret 6 against the low D string. Finally the bass walk into the IV chord G in several places reminds me of Big Road Blues and is indicative of Drop D.

Hey Hey Mama Blues - I don't have a good guess at this one (apparently without a train whistle I'm lost...) but think I'll agree with Old Man Ned with it being in G. All the activity in the bass makes me think that it lays out well under the hand in G, C or F. The best option of those sounds like G to me as it sounds like it goes from G to a IV chord C but I could be way off on this. I'm dying to hear what clues other people are using to get this one.

Thanks,
           Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on September 25, 2015, 09:04:02 PM
180 Days - Wow.  I want to say this is in E standard tunings.  To explain why - It just "feels" right that way.  But I readily accept I could be wrong, and hope wiser heads hear it better.  It's a great find, John!

90 Going North - Dropped D all the way.  That sound is so distinctive....love it.

Hey Hey Mama - G standard works for me...has a folksy sound to it that just lays right under the hand in G.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on September 26, 2015, 05:56:29 AM
What playing position/tuning did Tarheel Slim use to play "180 Days", and what is it about the sound of the piece that influenced your choice?

I agree with ScottN - the lack of a root in the IV chord, the absence of any hammer-on from the minor to major 3rd on the third string and the characteristic sound of the V7 chord combine to make vestapol the right identification.

What playing position/tuning did Frank Hovington use to play "90 Going North" and what is it about the sound of the piece that influenced your choice?

I agree with Old Man Ned on drop-D. The strong octave, prevalence of stock licks using a D-shape in first position and moved up three frets, the rootless IV chord and the sound of the A position V chord all make this the right identification.

What playing position/tuning did Kid Cole use to play "Hey Hey Mama Blues", and what is it about the sound of the piece that influenced your choice?

ScottN is correct in that "it lays out well under the hand in G, C or F" but the C7 shape as the V7 chord, the easy major sound of the bass runs and the circumspect sounding IV chord (although it does have a root, everything above it is a little muddy sounding) all combine to make standard tuning, F position the correct identification.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 26, 2015, 02:48:52 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Tarheel Slim, Frank Hovington and Kid Cole puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 27, 2015, 05:19:59 AM
What frankie said!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on September 27, 2015, 05:35:46 AM
Hmm - probably what Frankie said :) but here's what I have:

Tarheel Slim I'm still working out - not standard anyway and pitched low like the others.

Frank Hovington is in Vestapol key of D which jumps out at me now after getting into the recent Kokomo Arnold track. I didn't far enough in to contribute cause of being thoroughly distracted  by That'll be the way - Robert Wilkins, but it feels great to playing in a different tuning for a change.
Thank you for the inspiration, Johnm!

Kid Cole sounds like standard G position pitched a half step low sounding in F#
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 27, 2015, 10:57:57 AM
Hi all,
I think that everyone who intended to respond to the Tarheel Slim, Frank Hovington and Kid Cole puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.  Thanks to all who participated.

For Tarheel Slim's "180 Days":
   * His playing position/tuning was Vestapol, as Scott N, Frank and Prof Scratchy had it.  Well done, guys!  As Frank noted in his response, the IV chord, which is always voiced by Slim with its 3rd as its lowest voice is the characteristic sound of a IV chord in Vestapol at the base of the neck.  It is most often fingered 0-2-0-1-0-0, though the second string can be fretted at the second fret like the fifth string, too.  To get the same sound in E position in standard tuning, you'd have to finger the IV chord 0-4-2-2-0-0--not an impossible fingering, but certainly an awkward one.  The V7 chord has a characteristic "open" sound, due to its lacking a third.  It is fingered X-0-1-2-0-0, though the first string can be voiced at the second fret like the fourth string, too.  To get the same sound in E position in standard tuning, you'd have to finger the V7 chord X-2-4-2-0-0, which like the IV chord, is not impossible, but is certainly non-intuitive and doesn't sit easily in the left hand.
Tarheel Slim has a particularly nice and distinctive walk-down that he plays at the end of each verse which he gets by starting at the third fret of the fifth and third strings and walking down progressively to the second and first frets on those strings, ending up with those two strings open.  Try it out, it sounds great, and I've not heard other players in Vestapol do that.  I love Slim's beautifully relaxed time, and boy, could he sing!  This tune merits being picked up and played and sung by other people, it seems to me.

For Frank Hovington's "90 Going North":
   * Playing position/tuning was D in dropped-D tuning, as Old Man Ned and almost everyone else had it.  A number of sound characteristics give that playing position and tuning away.  In the opening phrase, in the I chord at the base of the neck, everything is easily accessible from a conventionally fingered D chord.  Later, when the song goes from its IV chord to its V7 chord, the IV chord is voiced with its 3rd in the bass and its root on the first string, easy enough to finger in dropped-D: X-2-0-0-3-3, but really awkward in Vestapol: X-2-0-1-3-5.  The V7 that the chord resolves into is the most commonly fingered X-0-2-2-2-3 one.  I sure wish Frank Hovington had been recorded more.

For Kid Cole's "Hey Hey Mama Blues":
   * Playing position was F position in standard tuning, as Frank and Prof Scratchy had it--well done!  F has a characteristic "chunky" sound, by virtue of being an entirely closed position.  Kid Cole makes great use of a descending bass line that he can finger easily out of the F chord by going from the third fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string, then to the third fret of the fifth string followed by the open fifth string, winding up on the first fret of the sixth string. Give it a try, it sits so naturally.  It seems like he almost always returns to his I chord from the root of his IV chord by lowering his bass one half-step, to the third of the I chord.  It is kind of an odd sound, but when you consider that in F the root of his IV chord, Bb, is at the first fret of the fifth string, and the open fifth string is the third of the I chord, F, it all makes sense, particularly in terms of how the hand is used.
Kid Cole seems to have been part of a little node of Cincinnati blues players, with Bob Coleman (if Kid and Bob were two different people) who played in F position a fair amount, sort of like William Moore and Luke Jordan in Virginia.
Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the tunes.  I'll try to find some more puzzlers soon.
All best,
Johnm     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on September 27, 2015, 12:16:48 PM
In 180 days, having difficulty hearing the lyrics for the third verse....Not sure I have it right.  Any help appreciated.

I'm on the chain gang doing 180 days
I'm on the chain gang doing 180 days
The girl I love just wouldn't quit her cheatin' ways

She was runnin' runnin' around with Tom Dick and Harry
She was runnin' runnin' around with Tom Dick and Harry
I caught up with her the night before the day we were to marry

<Guitar break>

I tried to end up end up all her low down cheatin ways
I tried to end up end up all her low down cheatin ways
The judge said "Go home son, you'll be home in 180 days"
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 27, 2015, 12:26:04 PM
Yes, you have it right, Ross, thanks.  I remembered after I posted this puzzler that I actually posted this song on the Country Blues Lyrics board a few years ago.  I sure like it, and I think it's really cool the way Tarheel Slim's voice has two different tones (at least), depending on what range he's singing.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 28, 2015, 09:43:00 AM
Hi all,
I've been transcribing the lyrics to Kid Cole's "Hey Hey Mama Blues", from the most recent set of puzzlers at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95055#msg95055 , and I have a question about his last verse that I'd very much appreciate some help with.  He sounds like he is singing "I'm gonna place my level-ee,  pretty mama, up on your wall".  He uses the word (or what sounds like) "level-ee" three times.  Does anyone either hear something different or see some way of making sense of "level-ee"?  I thought he might be talking about the tool, a level, but it's hard to see how that makes any sense at all with his tagline.  Thanks for any assistance with this.  I think I have the sound right, but it would be nice if it made a bit of sense.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on September 28, 2015, 10:59:14 AM
To me it sounds like "level-ay" or "level-ee"....and I'm thinking he is talking about a level, since the tag line takes about "ain't making no stall"...how or why carpentry fits into the grand scheme of the song is one of those poetic license things, I guess.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 28, 2015, 11:10:56 AM
Hi Ross,
Thanks for your thoughts and listening.  I think I will stick with "level-ee" since it sounds like what he's singing, and as you say, maybe he just means since he's using a level, he's not messing around, he means business.  Thanks for the help.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on September 28, 2015, 12:24:56 PM
Kinda funny, but I think I hear it right, give another listen and see what you think.

Gonna place my left leg, pretty mama, up on your wall
And you know by that, pretty mama, 'tain't makin' no stall

"Stall" in this context would be as in - no longer waiting around for sex, or ready for sex. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 28, 2015, 12:51:36 PM
You are sure enough right, Slack, good catch!  And it makes good sense of the tagline, too.  That "stall" usage turns up in a ton of lyrics.  That's great!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on September 28, 2015, 12:56:59 PM
Too much fun - from hanging tools above a horse stall to demanding sex!   :P
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on September 28, 2015, 07:38:55 PM
Slack, them's some good ears you got! 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on September 28, 2015, 07:56:26 PM
Dunno Ross, it's a tricky thing... sometimes you can listen without bias, other times you cannot!  I'm really amazed by some of the ears on this forum.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 29, 2015, 11:46:05 AM
Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is from the St. Louis musician, Papa Eggshell (Lawrence Casey), who recorded his version of "Whole Soul Blues" in 1929.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/euaMGon3vJA

NOTE:  the lyrics for "Whole Soul Blues" can be found at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=7963.0 .

The questions on "Whole Soul Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Papa Eggshell use to play the song?
   * Where does he fret the fill from :38--:42, and how is it located in the time?
   * Where does he fret the fill from :46--:49, and how is it located in the time?

The second song is Rosa Lee Hill's "Faro".  Here is her performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/1qAFXRIwna4

INTRO

Left my faro, standin' near back door, cryin'

Wanted me, and asked if I'd go to the store

Mmm-mmm, mmmmmm, mmmmmmm

Goin' away, cryin' won't make me stay

Goin' away, cryin' won't make me stay

Goin' away, cryin' won't make me stay

More you cry, further I goes away

Goin' away, and a suitcase hold my clothes

Got so many, got so fur to go

Goin' away, matchbox hold my clothes

I ain't got so many, got so fur to go

Leave here walkin', cryin' won't make me stay

Tell me, faro, what's the matter now?

Treatin' your faro like you used to do

The questions on "Faro" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Rosa Lee Hill use to play "Faro"?
   * Where is Rosa Lee Hill fretting the two bends she plays at the front end of her rendition and throughout the course of the song?
   * Why isn't anyone else as cool as Rosa Lee Hill?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, October 1.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 01, 2015, 06:20:02 AM
Papa  Eggshell is, I think, playing in C standard capoed on the second fret to sound in D. The first fill goes something like; str/fret ? 3/0-1-2;2/1;3/2;4/1-2;3/0;2/1. The second fill goes something like: 5/3; 2/4b;1/0;2/1;3/2-0>partial chords of G/C/F/C.

I?m stumped in Rosa Lee. Far too cool!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on October 01, 2015, 08:14:25 AM
Thanks, Scratchy!  This song has such great lyrics, I need/want to learn it.  I got as far as it's probably in D before life got in the way.  Now that this is over, I can convert it to MP3 and get to work on it for sure.

As for Rosa Lee....  I was thinking maybe Spanish, but then again, no....and I gave up.  You can't get that cool, you just gotta be born that way, I think.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 01, 2015, 01:33:58 PM
Papa Eggshell (what a name!) I'm also hearing in C raised up a couple of frets.  The fill at :38--:42 is played around a C7 chord shape, as near as I can get is pretty much as Prof Scratchy has it with a repeat of the open 3rd string, then 3rd fret/3rd string and 2nd string first fret, repeated about 4 times. Between :46--:49 is reminding me of Rev Gary Davis fill.

For Rosie Lee Hill, first let me say thank you, this is amazing.  Her guitar sounds to be low and I'm thinking Open G as there's a couple of phrases in their that are bringing Fred McDowell's playing in G to mind.  Where is she fretting those bends?........I think from some place way behind the sun...Yeah, Rosa Lee is cool because she's Rosa Lee. Ain't nobody else can be Rosa Lee.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 02, 2015, 01:08:50 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Papa Eggshell and Rosa Lee Hill puzzlers?  Come one, come all, answer only as many questions as you're comfortable answering.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 04, 2015, 12:24:50 PM
Hi all,
It looks as though all of the responses on Papa Eggshell's "Whole Soul Blues" and Rosa Lee Hill's "Faro" puzzlers are in, so I'll post the answers now.  Here goes:

For Papa Eggshell's "Whole Soul Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was C position, as Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned had it--well done!  Papa Eggshell's sound in C position, especially underneath his singing, was unusually "top-heavy", emphasizing the treble strings and altogether avoiding the sixth string, which in the course of the song he only plays during his solo and his outro. 
   * Papa Eggshell's fill from :38-:42 is played like so:  He begins the fill on the + of beat one in the third bar of his form, hitting the open third string.  On beat two of that bar he plays a triplet, walking up the third string from open to second fret to third fret. On beat three, he re-hits the third fret of the third string and picks the open third string on the + of beat three.  On beat four, he plays another triplet going from the open third third string to the second fret of the third string and then back to the open third string.  In bar four, he lands on the third fret of the fifth string, the second fret of the fourth string and the first fret of the second string on beat one and hits the open third string on the + of beat one.  One beat two of the fourth bar, he plays a triplet, going from the third fret of the third string to the first fret of the second string followed by the open third string.  On beat three of the fourth bar, he repeats the triplet he just played on beat two of that bar.  On beat four of the fourth bar, he hits the third fret of the third string on the beat and the open third string on the + of beat four.  It's a very spiffy fill, and he shows an understandable allegiance to it, returning to it at the same place in the form on his other passes through the form.  The fill very much emphasized the seventh of a C7 chord, located at the third fret of the third string, and thus really sets up the F chord into which it resolves.
   * Papa Eggshell's fill from :46--:49 is played like so: It starts on the + of beat one in the seventh bar of the form, hitting the fourth fret of the second string.  On beat two of the seventh bar, he hits a triplet, going from the open first string to the first fret of the second string, and then on to the second fret of the third string.  On beat three of the seventh bar, he he brushes the open third and second strings with his thumb, and on the + of beat three he picks the open third string.  On beat four of the seventh bar, he hits third fret of the fourth string, and on the + of beat four he hits the second fret of the fourth string.  On beat one of the eighth bar, he picks the first fret of the second string, and on the and of beat + he picks the open third string.  On beat two of the eighth bar, he thumb brushes the second fret of the third string and the first fret of the second string, and on the + of beat two, he hits the open third string.  On beat three of the eight bar, he pinches the second fret of the fourth string and the first fret of the second string on beat three, and strikes the open third string on the + of beat three.  On beat four+ he goes from the second to the third fret on the third string, leading right into the G chord that arrives in the ninth bar.  This is very close to what Prof Scratchy described in his answer to the question. 
Papa Eggshell was really a terrific player, and with only four solo tracks to his credit, was drastically under-recorded.  His three other titles use very close to the same accompaniment to each other, and if anything it is more exciting and striking even that "Whole Soul Blues".

For Rosa Lee Hill's "Faro":
   * Her playing position was E position in standard tuning, though tuned about a half-step low, and so sounding closer to Eb.  Many of her titles, and especially the ones she recorded for George Mitchell, are recorded with her guitar tuned drastically low, as much as a diminished fifth low, which puts her sixth string at Bb in standard tuning.  The slackness of her strings allows for extravagant bends, which she plays with superb control and nuance.
   * Rosa Lee frets the two bends she hits at the front end of her rendition and throughout the song under her singing at the seventh and fifth frets of her fourth string.  By doing the bends on the relatively heavily-gauged fourth string, she can give the bends a lot of sustain and carrying power--oomph!  If you relate the pitches she's bending towards to the E position she's playing in, the unbent seventh fret of the fourth string  (assuming she was tuned at concert pitch) would be an A note, so by bending it, she is moving it upward in pitch towards the very rasty-sounding bV note, Bb.  Similarly, the note at the fifth fret of the fourth string, G, is the minor III note relative to E, so that when she bends it she is moving that minor third upward to some microtonal blue third in between the major and minor third. 

Knowing what position Rosa Lee Hill played the song out of, I encourage folks to figure out the rest of her rendition.  The challenges have to do primarily with timing, especially on her solo interludes, but the piece lays out beautifully in the left hand, and never involves fretting more than two notes simultaneously.  Give it a shot--I will!

I suspect some of you have heard or played the R. L. Burnside song, "Goin' Down South", from his earliest recordings.  In that song, he utilizes what amounts to almost the same lick, but moved down a voice relative to the I chord, going between the fifth fret of the fourth string, the minor III of the I chord, down to the second fret of the fourth string, the I note.  I love what Burnside does on that song, but I think Rosa Lee's sound, especially with that bend at the seventh fret, is a more eerie and sort of "un-moored" sound.  Her bends barely sound as though they exist in a scale, more like they're just floating in the aether somewhere.  She really had such a striking sound, and I feel she's one of the strongest Mississippi players and singers ever.

   * As to why no one else is as cool as Rosa Lee Hill, the only answer I can think of is that she set the bar too high for other people to clear it.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy, One-Eyed Ross and Old Man Ned for participating, and I'll try to find some more good performances to use for puzzlers soon.

All best,
Johnm 
 
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 06, 2015, 04:12:36 PM
Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is "Lemon Man" by Dan Pickett, An Alabaman who was born James Founty.  Here is Dan Pickett's rendition of "Lemon Man":

https://youtu.be/t_8OKiWwAQU

INTRO SOLO

Well, you got fruit in your back yard, mama, lemons out on all your shelf
Fruit in your back yard, mama, lemons out on your shelf
I want to squeeze your lemon, woman, Great God, you can not squeeze 'em yourself

Let me squeeze your lemon, babe, while I'm in your lonesome town
Squeeze your lemons, baby, while I'm in your lonesome town
Now I want to squeeze 'em, little woman, Great God, whilst your man is not around

Says, I'm a stranger here, mama, honey, travelin' through your town
Stranger here, mama, honey, travelin' through your town
Yeah, if'n I ask you for a favor, baby, please don't you turn me down

Squeeze your lemon one time, babe, you're gon' want me to squeeze 'em again
Squeeze your lemon one time, babe, you're gon' want me to squeeze 'em again
Lord, I'm gonna get a pitcher, baby, let this old juice run in

I'm a lemon squeezer, I don't 'ny my name, well, squeeze your lemon, scandalous and a shame
Hey, hey, I sure don't 'ny my name
Well, squeezin' 'em, little woman, scandalous and a shame

Squeeze your lemon one time, babe, while I'm in your lonesome town
Squeeze your lemon one time, babe, while I'm in your lonesome town (Spoken:  All right, here I is!)
Yes, a good time to squeeze 'em, while your man is out of town
   
The questions on "Lemon Man" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Dan Pickett use to play the song?
   * Where did Dan Pickett fret what he is playing in the treble from :09--:10, and where is the note located that he is playing in the bass?
   * Where did Dan Pickett fret the run he plays from :26--:28?
   * Where did Dan Pickett fret what he is playing in the treble from 1:42--1:46?

The next song is Mooch Richardson's "T and T Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/A7PzzK7Ju90

INTRO SOLO

Will you iron my jumper, gettin' to starch my overhalls
Will you iron my jumper, and you gettin' to starch my overhalls
Well, if I miss the 2:19, I'm surely gonna catch the Cannonball

Well, a brownskin woman sure can get anything I --
Well, a brownskin woman, get anything I got
Well, a jet black woman, I ain't gonna let her put her stuff right in my back yard

Well, it's T for Texas, Lord, I got a T for Tennessee
Well, I got a T for Texas, I got a, got a T for Tennessee
Well, I got a T for the best girl I love, Lord, she stay right in Memphis, Tennessee

Well, I'm goin' away, brownskin, I ain't gonna come back here before next Fall
Well, I'm gwon away, brownskin, I ain't comin' back here before next Fall
If I don't get me no good brown, I ain't comin' back in this town a' 'tall

Well, the sun is goin' down, done got mighty lonesome here
Well, the sun is goin' down, done got mighty lonesome here
Well, I ain't got me nobody, I'm sleepin' here the, night just by myself

 The questions on "T and T Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Mooch Richardson use to play the song?
   * Where did Mooch Richardson fret his IV7 chord that he plays at :58--1:00?  Where did he fret the IV7 chord that he plays from 2:19--2:24?  Where did he fret the IV7 chord that he plays from 2:50--2:55?

As always, please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answers.  Please don't post any answers prior to 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, October 8.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs and working on the puzzlers.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on October 08, 2015, 07:25:15 AM
I think I whiffed pretty spectacularly the last time I participated, but I'll give it a go:

Dan Pickett's "Lemon Man"

-Tuning/Position is A standard, pitched a half step high
-At :09-:10 he fingers the first string at the 9th fret and the second string at the 10th while plucking the open third (G) underneath
-The riff at :26--:28 I was unsure of, as it fits comfortably enough in first position (long A shape) but the pull-offs make me think he was doing it up between the 5th and 8th fret.
-At 1:42 to 1:46 he plays the riff by sliding from the 10th to the 11th fret on the third string followed by picking at the 12th and 10th on the first string (while thumping the open D string bass)

Mooch Richards - T and T Blues
-Spanish, pitched around B (though I spent a decent amount of time poking around at it in A standard)
-The first of the listed IV7 chords he plays by fingering the second string at the 1st fret, the third string at the 3rd fret, and the fourth string at the 2nd fret (omitting the first string). The second IV7 chord he plays by barring the second, third and fourth strings at the 5th fret while fingering the first string at the 8th fret (I hear some bass notes that sound like the open A string underneath). The third listed IV7 really threw me. What it sound like he's fingering would be like a Gm barre chord in standard, though I only hear the third, fourth, and sixth string ringing out. Something like:

x
x
3
5
x
3
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on October 08, 2015, 09:42:05 AM
Dan Picket - Lemon Man
Standard tuning Key of A - a little sharp of concert.
At :09 he is playing the 1st string 9th fret and 2nd string 10th fret, while the bass is
the open 3rd string.

At :26, there are a couple different ways to play the lick, but I think it is slightly
easier in open A position, where he plays a pickup note on the  1st string 5th fret,
then a triplet on the downbeat of the measure at the 1st string 3rd fret, 1st string 5th
fret, 1st string 3rd fret again. This is followed by another triplet, open 1st string,
2nd string 3rd fret, then  open 1st string.  Followed by a hammer from open 2nd string to
2nd string 2nd fret, 3rd string 2nd fret. This is followed by striking the 1st string
5th fret on the 4th beat of the measure.

At 1:42, he slides into the 3rd string, 11th fret, followed by 2nd string 10th fret,
followed by 1st string 12th fret and 1st string 10th fret. Then playing the 3rd string
11th fret and 1st string 10th fret, 12th fret and 10th fret. Repeat from slide into 11th
fret, followed by 2nd string 10th fret, followed by 1st string 12th fret and 1st string
10th fret. Repeat it one more time.

Mooch Richardson - T and T Blues
Spanish tuning, a little sharp and capoed up 3 frets, which puts him around Bb.
The IV7 chord at :58 is played at the 2nd string 1st fret, 3rd string 3rd fret, and 4th
string 2nd fret. He also is playing the open 5th string some of the time.

The IV7 chord at 2:19 is played at the 7th fret, with the 1st string 8th fret, 2nd
string 8th fret, 3rd string rocking back and forth between the 9th fret and 7th fret.
Hold the top two string with the 2nd and 3rd fingers, then hold the 7th fret with the
1st finger and the 9th with the 4th finger.

The IV7 chord at 2:50 is played with on the 3rd string 3rd fret, 4th string 2nd fret,
and 6th string 2nd fret.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 09, 2015, 07:49:17 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Dan Pickett and Mooch Richardson puzzlers?  Come one, come all, answer as few or as many as you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 10, 2015, 05:55:51 PM
Hi all,
It doesn't appear that there will be any more responses to the Dan Pickett and Mooch Richardson puzzlers, so I will post the answers.  Thanks to Lastfirstface and davek for participating.

For Dan Pickett's "Lemon Man":
   * Playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning, capoed up a ways.  A couple of things that would help to identify his playing position as E position in standard tuning would be:
   1) He never strikes a note lower in pitch than the low root of his I chord.  Were he playing in A position in standard tuning, he would have the low root of the V7 chord available  on the open sixth string, and the thumb-wrapped second fret of the sixth string available for his IV7 chord.  Not that he would be required to play those notes if he were playing in A position, but he would almost have to studiously avoid them not to play them at least once in the course of a blues played in A position.
   2) Over the course of the piece, he frequently hits the index finger hammer from the flat third to the major third that can be found going from the open third string to the first fret of the third string in E position, standard tuning.
   * From :09--:10, he is fretting the fifth fret of the second string and the fourth fret of the first string (relative to his capo placement), playing a little partial D shape moved up to frets, while hitting the open fourth string in the bass.  That open fourth string, the seventh in the E7 chord has a kind of dissonant sound against the notes he's hitting in the treble, especially the fourth fret of the first string, which is a tritone away from it.
   * Dan Pickett frets his run from :26--:28 like so:  On the downbeat of the measure, he hits the open sixth string, followed by the open first string on the + of beat one.  On beat two, he plays a triplet, the first two notes of which are the open fourth string and the second fret of the fourth string, and the third note of the triplet is the open first string.  on beat three, he plays another triplet, with the first two notes being a pull-off from the third fret of the second string to the open second string and the third note being the bent third fret of the third string.  On beat four, he plays one last triplet, pulling off from the second fret of the third string to the first fret of the third string and then going to the second fret of the fourth string.  He resolves the run upward, to the open first string, hitting it on 1+ to begin the next measure.
   * Dan Pickett fretted what he played from 1:42--1:46 in the treble out of an A chord played out of an F shape, moved up the neck.  On the + of beat four of the measure preceding the downbeat of the run, he slides into the sixth fret of the third string with his second finger.  On 1+ of the next measure he goes from the fifth fret of the second string to the seventh fret of the first string.  On 2+, he goes from the fifth fret of the first string back to the sixth fret of the third string.  On 3+, he goes from the fifth fret of the first string to the seventh fret of the first string.  On 4+, he goes from the fifth fret of the first string to a slide into the sixth fret of the third string.  1+ in the second measure is the same as 1+ in the first measure, and 2+ in the second measure is the same as 4+ in the first measure.  3+ in the second measure is the same as 1+ in the second measure, and on 4+, he hits the fifth fret of the first string twice.  The is a phrase and position I always associate with the playing of Buddy Moss, though certainly other players have done it as well.  I just don't think I heard anyone do it earlier than Buddy.

Dan Pickett was sure an exciting singer and player!  His vocals seem very influenced by Tommy McClennan to me, and he is a player I think of as simultaneously having great time, while being metrically all over the place, and altering the form as he goes.  He's a prime example of what a secondary virtue metric consistency is in this music.  For a solo player, especially, it really doesn't end up being of much importance.  Far more important are a strong pulse (in whatever meter) and letting phrase lengths dictate meter, rather than vice versa.

For Mooch Richardson's "T and T Blues":
   * Playing position was A position in standard tuning.
   * Mooch's IV7 chord from :58--1:00 is fingered 5-X-4-5-3-0, essentially a C7 shape moved up two frets and voiced with the fifth of the chord voiced on the sixth string, rather than the root of the chord being voiced at the same fret, but on the fifth string.  This is the voicing of the D7 that Mooch uses most often in the course of his rendition, and he usually precedes it in the progression with the E7 voiced exactly the same way, but two frets higher, going from the ninth to the tenth bar of the form.  From 2:19--2:24, Mooch fingers his IV7 chord X-0-7-7-7-8, moving a shape that is most often used for an A7 chord with the index doing a partial barre at the second fret up to the seventh fret.  From 2:50--2:55, Mooch fingered his IV7 chord, 2-X-X-2-1-X, doing the thumb-wrapped D7 chord that I associate with Robert Johnson's A blues, though certainly many other players, like Blind Boy Fuller, used it all the time.

I think one thing that makes the identification of Mooch's playing as being in A position in standard tuning tougher than it might be is that he pretty much avoids playing his V7 chord, E7, at the base of the neck, so you miss many or most of the characteristic E sounds down there, like the index hammer to the first fret of the third string.  Mooch sounds like he's really working out of a Lemon Jefferson mold on "T and T Blues", to me.

Thanks to Lastfirstface and Dave for participating, and I hope more folks will join in next time.  I'll look for some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on October 11, 2015, 04:05:07 PM
I hope to get back into participating in this again soon. I have been so busy lately I don't have a lot of time to play guitar during the week.  :(
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 12, 2015, 12:37:51 AM
Came late to this one and had only got as far as the keys! Thought both of them were in A, so I was half right! Great to see the explanation of how these tunes were played.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 12, 2015, 11:50:55 AM
Thanks EddieD and Prof Scratchy for the messages.  I can appreciate that answering the puzzlers takes some time, and also that some of the featured songs may not appeal.  Other times, life may get in the way, or there may be some burn-out on the whole thing.  No guilt-tripping from me--I'm just glad when people have the time and inclination to participate.  It's neat to see people from all over the world coming together in the same endeavor.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 15, 2015, 08:45:04 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for folks who are interested.  The first is from Memphis Willie B, and is his cover of a song originally recorded by Little Buddy Doyle, "Funny Caper Blues".  Here is Willie B's performance:

https://youtu.be/3sfVq1Shm5E

The lyrics for "Funny Caper Blues" can be found at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=6130.msg49318#msg49318 .

The questions for "Funny Caper Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Memphis Willie B use to play the song?
   * Where does Memphis Willie B fret the run he plays from :08 to :11?
   * Where does Memphis Willie B fret the beginning of his solo, from 2:17--2:25?

The second puzzler is Richard Wright's "Peaksville Boogie".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/-yGb9JS8334

The questions on "Peaksville Boogie" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Richard Wright use to play the song?
   * Where does he fret the run that opens the song, from :03--:06?
   * Where does he fret the passage from :16 to :21?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answer, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday morning, October 17.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 17, 2015, 05:03:15 AM
Memphis Willie B's "Funny Caper Blues" I'm hearing in D, standard.  For :08 - :11 I'm going with:
3--3--1--------------------------
---------3--1---------------------
---------------2--2--0h1p0------
------------------------------3--0
-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------

For 2:17--2:25 I'd say he's hitting on the 4th string 3rd fret a lot.  Could be played on 5th string, 8th fret, but I'm thinking it's on the 4th string.

Richard Wright's "Peakesville Boogie" I'm hearing in A standard.  Between 03:06, I'm hearing:
-----5--3--------------
>5--------5-----------
--------------7--5h6--
-----------------------7
on the top 4 strings

Between 16:21, something like:
----------------------------12--10--8------12--10--8
-----10--10--8--10->10--------------10--------------10
>9----------------------------------------------------------9w--7
on the top 3 strings

Loved both tunes, with an added bonus that I wasn't aware of Memphis Willie B before the post.  Thanks for discovering another bluesman for me!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on October 17, 2015, 08:26:12 AM
Hmm..  For "Funny Caper" I'm hearing it more C shape, capo at 2 (to make it D [hey, at least I got the key right!])  For the :08-:11 I'm hearing a walk down on the E string from 3rd fret to 1st,  then 2/4, 2/1,  3rd string 2nd fret, then back to 2/1....  For the 2:17 to 2:25 I'm hearing an A chord shape played at the third fret, then a C7.  (relative to the capo).

I like the flatted note (E flat if this is in C shape, F natural if in D).  This note sticks in my ear...  (One of the reasons I think this is in C is that that E flat is easier to finger for me than the F natural is in D...but that could just be my lazy fingers).

I didn't get a chance to work on Peaksville Boodie, but it's sounds like a great tune...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 17, 2015, 09:56:40 AM
I'm currently in Lisbon and a long way from my guitar! Also can't get the second video to load on my phone. These excuses notwithstanding, I'm going to plump for D for the Memphis Willie B one!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on October 17, 2015, 11:35:27 AM
I'm kind of running around today, but I'll venture a guess at position and tuning:

Memphis Willie B - D Standard

Richard Wright - E position capoed up to A
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 18, 2015, 08:00:02 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Memphis Willie B and Richard Wright puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Kadens on October 18, 2015, 09:40:50 AM
Hi all,
I give Funny Caper a wild try.

I guess key of D standard tuning.
 
I believe 0:8-0:11 is started fret 3/1st string, drops to the 1st fret, then the same on the 2nd string. I am lost during the hammer-on, there is an A on fret 2 third string following.

I believe the solo at 2:17 starts at 1st string/fret 5 and 2nd string/fret 6, then the same shape drops down to the 2nd and 3d frets.

This was exhausting to my ears so no opinion on Peaksville boogie :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on October 18, 2015, 02:24:27 PM
Hi all

Here's my try at the puzzle:

Quote
The questions for "Funny Caper Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Memphis Willie B use to play the song?

I think I recognized the open position D and A7 chord shapes, and there is no lower D note than the open 4th string, so I'd say standard tuning, D position.

   
Quote
* Where does Memphis Willie B fret the run he plays from :08 to :11?

Sounds like he's descending the D blues scale, starting from the 1st string on the 3rd fret, played twice, then the 1st fret; then the 2nd string on the 3rd and 1st frets; the the 3rd string on the 2nd fret, then there's a slur of notes which start on the 1st fret, which is folllowed maybe with a hammer on and pull off on the 2nd fret, then a pull off to the open 3rd string; then the 4th string 3rd fret; and the open 5th and 4th strings.

   
Quote
* Where does Memphis Willie B fret the beginning of his solo, from 2:17--2:25?

It sounds like he's rocking back and forth the major 3rd interval on two top strings, 2nd string 6th fret and 1st string 5th fret; to 2nd string 3rd fret and 1st string 2nd fret.

Quote
The questions on "Peaksville Boogie" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Richard Wright use to play the song?

Sounds to me like he's playing out of the E position in standard tuning, with a capo, to sound like he's somewhere around the key of A. The root seems to be the lowest note, and the licks seem to fall naturally in the E position.

 
Quote
* Where does he fret the run that opens the song, from :03--:06?

The 3rd string 4th fret slid in, then the open 1st string, followed by the 2nd string 3rd fret, then again the 3rd string 4th fret; then the 3rd string 2nd fret, followed by the same open string, followed by a hammer on on the 1st fret; the the 4th string 2nd fret; and the open 6th string; followed by the open two top strings.
   
Quote
* Where does he fret the passage from :16 to :21?

The 3rd string 4th fret slid in, then the open 1st string, followed by the 2nd string 3rd fret, then again the open 1st string. I suspect he fingers the fretted notes with his first and second fingers, and then moves them up to the 6th fret of the 3rd string and the 5th fret of the 2nd string; followed by the 1st string on the 7th fret, the 5th fret; then the 2nd string on the 7th fret, bent up a 1/2 step; then all the notes on the upper position are repeated; followed by a quick 1/2 step bend and release on the 4th string; the to the Ist position and an E chord with a hammer on from the open 3rd string to the 1st fret, the 2nd fret 4th string, the open 6th string; and open two top strings.

Looking forward for the verdict!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: papa john pio on October 18, 2015, 02:36:26 PM
This is my first try in this marvelous section of WeenieCampbell. I followed every John?s puzzle with gorgeous interest every time. I?m from Italy so please forgive my stinky English.
Here?s my two cents for ?Funny Caper Blues?: I guess that Memphis Willie B plays out of ?dropped D? position. Well, it seems He does not hit that dropped D 6th string  free anytime, so I?m not  pretty sure. From 08 to 11 sec he plays 1st string 3th fret (picked 2 times) and then 1st string 1st fret, 2nd string 3rd fret, 2nd string 1st fret, 3 string 2 fret, 3rd string 1st fret pulled off to 0, 4 string 3 fret, 4th string free and then the chord with 3rd and 5th string picked free in unison.
The solo start with a 5-6-5 fret shape on the very first three strings then go down in a standard D position 2-3-2.
I?m done for now. Best regards to everybody
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on October 19, 2015, 04:25:55 AM
For Memphis Willie B playing "Funny Caper Blues", I think it's played out of D position tuned not far from standard. Maybe in dropped-D because I don't hear the G on the bass E string when he goes to the IV chord, but I don't hear the low D either....!
The solo is a d shape moved up three frets, down, up again.

For "Peakesville Boogie" (great playing, cool tune), I think it's in E position and sounds like it's capoed up to the 4th fret.  The first phrase is a slide on the 3rd string up to the 4th fret, 1st string open, 2nd string third fret then open, third string 2nd fret then hammer on from open to first fret and the 2nd fret of the fourth string.
From 16 to 21 seconds, I think he's sliding up to the 6th fret on the third string, 5th fret on the second, then first string 7th, 5th and bending the 2nd string at the 8th fret (relative to capo) (twice) then 2nd string open, third string third fret, a little slide to second fret and hammer from open to first, into the E shape. Cool!

Gordon
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 19, 2015, 12:51:36 PM
Hi all,
Thanks for all the responses to the Memphis Willie B and Richard Wright puzzlers!  I can't remember the last time there were so many responses.  I suspect people are ready for the answers, so I'll post them.

For Memphis Willie B's "Funny Caper Blues"
   * He was playing out of D position in standard tuning, as most of you had it.  It's not impossible that he was playing out of dropped-D, but there is a descending run he plays in his intro that really wanted to resolve to the low D note-if it were there.  It's counter-intuitive to re-tune the guitar for a low root of the I chord that you never choose to play, so I'm reasonably certain he was in D position, standard tuning rather than dropped-D tuning. 
   * A number of you had the run that Memphis Willie B played from :08--:11 pretty much spot on.  Starting on beat two of the measure, he begins with a triplet, the first two notes of which are the first string, third fret, and the final note of which is the first string, first fret.  He then plays a triplet going from the third to the first fret on the second string and ending on the second fret of the third string.  He plays one more triplet, doing a grace note pull-off from the first fret of the third string to the open third string, followed by the third fret of the fourth string and the open fourth string.  On 1+ of the next measure, he bounces from the open fifth string to the second fret of the third string, landing on the fifth fret of the first string on beat two.  Old Man Ned, Pan and papa john pio had this really well, and Kadens was very close--well done!
   * From 2:17--2:25 in his solo, Memphis Willie B is moving his D shape on the top three strings from the fifth fret down to the second fret and back up to the fifth fret, just as papa john pio and Gordon had it--well done!  Lightnin' Hopkins did essentially the very same move (though in dropped-D tuning) in "Crawlin' Blacksnake", from earlier in this thread.  When you take any closed major chord position, like the D shape on the first three strings, and move it up three frets while keeping the same I note in the bass, you end up with a I minor 7 chord in the position three frets up.  So Memphis Willie B goes back and forth between a Dm7 at the fifth fret and a D major chord down at the second fret.  It's a great sound.

Memphis Willie B is one of the relatively few Country Blues guitarists who liked playing in D position, standard tuning a lot and used it extensively.  If you go to the Memphis Willie B. Lyrics thread, and just scan through the songs to see how many he played out of D position, standard tuning, I think you'll be surprised how many there were.

For Richard Wright's "Peakesville Boogie":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning, as most of you had, and Lastfirstface was the first to get, along with D position in standard tuning for the Memphis Willie B song--well done!
   * Richard Wright fretted the run from :03--:06 as follows:  A slide into the fourth fret of the third string followed by the open first string coming down to the third fret of the second string, then back to the fourth fret of the third string followed by the second fret of the third string, ending up with a hammer on the open third string to the first fret, resolving first to the second fret of the fourth string and then the open sixth string.  Pan and Gordon had this pretty much spot on--good going!
   * For the run from :16--:21, Richard Wright played the following:  A slide into the fourth fret of the third string followed by the open first string, third fret of the second string and a return to the open first string.  Then, a slide into the sixth fret of the third string followed by the fifth fret of the second string, the seventh fret of the first string, the fifth fret of the first string and a bent eighth fret of the second string.  The run starting from the slide into the sixth fret of the third string repeats intact.  Then Wright goes from the open first string to a little slide from the fourth to the third fret on the third string, followed by a doubled grace note hammer to the first fret of the third string, followed by the second fret of the fourth string and the open sixth string.  Gordon and Pan had this very clearly--good listening!

Richard Wright is not a familiar name to me, and I know nothing about him in the biographical sense, though I would assume he was from Virginia or the Carolinas.  He's an interesting player in that he is simultaneously sophisticated in the lines he chooses to play, and very metrically irregular, sort of making up his form as he goes, and altering it a fair amount over the course of his rendition of "Peakesville Boogie".

Thanks again to all who participated.  It's great to see some first-time posters, and the return of some who hadn't posted in a while.  I think folks did really well with these puzzlers, and I'll try to find some good ones to post again soon.
All best,
Johnm


 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 23, 2015, 09:45:56 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  I realized it has been a while since we've done any Robert Pete Williams songs, so here are a couple that are straight playing position/tuning questions, on "High As I Want To Be" and "Poor Bob's Blues".  Here is "High As I Want To Be":

https://youtu.be/C5v_GwfmXd0

Ooooo-eeee,
I'm as high as I want to be
Yes, darlin', I'm high as I wanta be

Would you run here, baby, set down on my knee?
Run here, woman, set down on my knee
I got somethin' to tell you, darlin', make the hair rise on your ---

What playing position/tuning did Robert Pete Williams use to play "High As I Want To Be"?

Here is "Poor Bob's Blues":

https://youtu.be/TmpQu-bJoFA

Lord, look-a-here, baby
Oh, darlin', what you want poor Bob to do?
Oh, babe, what you want poor Bob to do?
You must want me, baby, Lord, well, to lay down and die for --

If you ever been down, baby, you know just how it is, poor
If you ever been down, woman, know how it is to be

Wonder why, woman, wanta treat me this way
Ooh, wonder why, baby, you wanta treat me this way

I'm worried, woman, I ain't got no place to go

Let's go and have some fun, baby, we gotta ball all night long
Let's go out and have some fun, darlin', We got ball 'til the break of day

If the river was wine, me and my baby be drunk all the time

What playing position/tuning did Robert Pete Williams use to play "Poor Bob's Blues"?

One more puzzler is Rev. RobertWilkins' version of "Just A Closer Walk With Thee".  Here is his performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/9P4Qq7Cf9s4

The questions for "Just A Closer Walk With Thee" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Rev. Wilkins use to play the song?
   * What is the chord progression of the song as he played it?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Sunday morning, October 25.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm 

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on October 25, 2015, 08:23:07 AM
High as I Want To Be - Vestapol tuned down around C

Poor Bob's Blues - Spanish somewhere around Bb (Edit: just tried this again in G standard and liked the fingering, so I'm a bit lost on this one)

Just A Closer Walk With Thee- G Standard

Progression:

|  G  |   G  |  F  |  F  |  D  |  D  |  G  |  G  |
|  C  |   C  |  C  |  C  |  G  |  G  | G  |  G  |
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on October 25, 2015, 09:16:06 AM
High As I Want to Be - Robert Pete Williams
Vestapol tuning, about a step flat to key of C.
I'm very unsure of this. It might be in Drop D.

Poor Bob's Blues - RP Williams
Standard tuning, key of Am, played in first position at the nut.

Just a closer Walk - Rev Wilkins
Standard tuning, in F# at the 2nd fret, closed position for all chords except the E.

Chord Progression
F# F# E E
C# C# F# F#
B  B  F# F# F# F#

I just read Lastfirstface's answer, and G seems a lot more likely than F#.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on October 25, 2015, 10:03:14 AM
OK, so for Poor Boy's Blues....  To me, and I admit to maybe not hearing this right, it seems to live (assuming the guitar is tuned to standard) between the 6th and 8th frets - at least that's where I find the notes.  This would put it in B flat, but I don't know if he is playing up the neck or using a capo. 

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on October 25, 2015, 10:11:31 AM
My guesses:
High As I Want To Be - E
Poor Bob's Blues - A
Just A Closer Walk With Thee - I agree with Lastfirstface with G

Those Robert Pete Williams ones are tough.  Love his playing and groove though!

Thanks,
           Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 25, 2015, 12:29:35 PM
I'm going to say:
High As I Want To Be - D standard
Poor Bob's Blues - Am
Just A Closer Walk With Thee - C standard tuned low
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 26, 2015, 08:43:08 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Robert Pete Williams and Robert Wilkins puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on October 26, 2015, 09:15:06 AM
Agree with Prof Scratchy --
High As I Want to Be -- D standard
(RPW plays in Dm like this sometimes too, just leans on the F note a little more, which gives a great sound when he goes to that big first position open G chord to play a boogie line)

Poor Bob's Blues - Am

Just a Closer Walk with Thee is G as Lastfirstface had it -- those with sharp memories might remember that John set out the chord changes of this version a couple of years ago!
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 26, 2015, 04:44:20 PM
Hi all,
I'm going to assume that everyone who wished to respond to the most recent set of puzzlers has done so by now, so here are the answers.:

For Robert Pete Williams' "High As I Want To Be", his playing position was Dropped-D tuning, playing in D position, as Dave had it in his back-up choice.  You can hear Robert Pete hit the low D note on the open sixth string at :11, :24 and at various other places in the course of the rendition.
For Robert Pete Williams' "Poor Bob's Blues", his playing position was A/Aminor in standard tuning, as Dave, Scott, Prof Scratchy and Chris had it--well done!  He has a beautifully choppy signature lick on this one, sounding as though he picked it thumb-index, thumb-index, thumb in the right hand, going from the third fret of the first string to the open first string, then the third fret of the second string to the first fret of the second string, ending up at the second fret of the third string.  It falls in the pulse starting on beat 2, 2+3+4.
Has there ever been a Country Blues player to equal Robert Pete Williams for funkiness of rhythm and touch when he's working in this sound?  I don't think so!
For Robert Wilkins' version of "Just A Closer Walk With Thee", Lastfirstface had both the playing position/tuning, G position in standard tuning and the progression, spot on--well done!

Just to reiterate something discussed a couple of times earlier in the thread, the pitch at which a rendition sounds is of little or no significance in determining the playing position/tuning that is used to play a piece.  Moreover, a playing position/tuning has a unique combination of identifying aural characteristics, based on what it makes available for the player, that holds true for that playing position/tuning no matter what key it sounds in.  Just as an example of how the pitch a rendition sounds in does not count for much in making an identification of playing position/tuning, consider a song sounding in Bb.  Well, it could be Papa Charlie Jackson or Bobby Leecan playing in Bb position in standard tuning . . . or it could be Arthur Crudup playing in cross-note, capoed to the sixth fret . . . or it could be Clifford Gibson playing in Spanish tuning capoed to the third fret . . . or it could be Charley Jordan playing in E position in standard tuning capoed to the sixth fret . . . or it could be Blind Boy Fuller playing in A position in standard tuning tuned a half-step high.  I think you see what I'm getting at--what's important is not identifying the key of Bb the rendition might sound in, but rather, the Bb position, or cross-note, or Spanish, or E position, or A position, and learning the sound characteristics of those different positions and tunings.

Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoyed the songs.

All best,
Johnm

   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 29, 2015, 11:53:26 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for you.  The first is Pink Anderson's rendition of the old hymn, "I Will Fly Away".  Here is Pink's performance:

https://youtu.be/YMDVT01wf-Q

INTRO

Some glad morning, when this weary life is over, I will fly away
Now, when I die, hallelujah, bye and bye, I will fly away, let me tell you

REFRAIN: I will fly away, yes, I will fly away
Oh, when I die, hallelujah, bye and bye, I will fly away

Just a few more worried days and then, I will fly away
Unto a happy world, where joy will never end, I will fly away, let me tell you

REFRAIN: I will fly away, oh yes, I will fly away
Oh, when I die, hallelujah, bye and bye, I will fly away, Church and members,

REFRAIN: I will fly away, oh yes, I will fly away
Oh, when I die, hallelujah, bye and bye, I will fly away

Some glad morning, when this worried life is over, I will fly away
Oh, like a bird when those prison bars is broken, I will fly away, everybody now,

REFRAIN: I will fly away, oh yes, I will fly away
Now, when I die, hallelujah, bye and bye, I will fly away
 
The questions on "I'll Fly Away" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Pink use to play the song?
   * Where does he fret the run he plays from :04--:06?
   * Where does he fret the fill he plays from :15--:17?
   * How does he finger the chord he plays from 1:04--1:05 and what is the chord?

The second song is J. T. Smith's "Hoppin' Toad Frog".  Here is his performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/PhFUmQBEqo0

The questions on "Hoppin' Toad Frog" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did J. T. Smith use to play the song?
   * Where does he fret the opening run, from :00--:05?
   * Where does J. T. Smith fret his outro, from 2:45--2:48?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday, October 31.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: papa john pio on October 31, 2015, 10:09:34 AM
Here?s my two cents. Smith?s ?Hoppin Toad Frog? is played in the G positions, maybe half step up.
I recognize it by the riff between the verses, it?s the typical sound in the G position.  From 00 to 05 he start plays a long slide from first or second fret to the five fret of the 5th string alternating with the 4th string played free in counterpoint two times and then picking that only 5th string three times sliding down in the last. Then slide up the same way to the fifth fret of the 4th string played in counter point with the 3rd string free, again two times  and the last three times the 4th string alone sliding down. I thing that on the 5th and 4th  strings run, he uses always the thumb and maybe on the 4th and 3rd string run he uses the index to pick the 3rd string. After that he close the first part of the intro picking the 4th string free and then fourth, third and second fret on the 5th string, closing with third fret 6th string. The outro start with the 4th string at the second fret with the thumb and the two times the 1st, 2nd and 3rd string free in unison with the finger, then again the 4th string at the second and fast to the first fret, than picking two times in unison 1st at third fret and 2nd and 3rd strings free, picks again the 4th a the first and then the 6th at the third, finally the two brushes in G chord upward then downward.
I?m sorry I have no time to study "I will Fly Away" but I think is played in the E position tuned a bit low.
Cheers.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 31, 2015, 10:19:26 AM
For the Pink Anderson one I'm going to say E standard tuned low.

0:4 to 0:6 = 5/2>4; 4/0.>1>2>E chord hammering on to first fret of third string

15--:17 = 5/0>3>h4; 4/2>5>4>2;5/4

Turnaround chord =22020x

For the JT Smith one I'm going to say A standard - but that's as far as I've got. I'm basing that on the Blind Lemon chords he uses 2/3 of the way through.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on October 31, 2015, 10:35:24 AM
Pink Anderson I'll Fly Away
Drop D tuning, key of D
From :04-:06 is fretted on the 5th string, starting open, hammer to 3rd fret, then open,
hammer again to 3rd fret, then 4th fret, then open 4th string.

From :15-:17, play the down beat on 5th fret, 6th string, then play 1st fret 5th string
and hammer on to the 2nd fret. Then open 4th for a beat, 3rd fret 4th string for a beat,
open 4th string for a beat, and 2nd fret 5th string for a beat.

The chord from 1:04-1:05 is fingered at open 5th string, 3rd fret 4th string, 2nd fret
3rd string and 2nd fret 2nd string. Play only the inside four strings. It would be named
an A#5. A dominant 7 tone is implied but not present.


Funny Papa Smith Hoppin' Toad Frog
Standard tuning, G position. Capo first fret.

From :00-:05, strike and slide up from 2nd to the 5th fret on the 5th string on the down
beat, then play a pickup to the 2nd beat on the open 4th string. The second beat, play a
triplet alternating between the 5th fret 5th string and open 4th string. 3rd beat, play
a whole note on the on the open 4th string. 4th beat, play an 8th note on the 5th fret,
5th string, sliding down as the note decays. 8th note pickup to 2nd measure, strike and
slide from 2nd to 5th fret on the 4th string. Play two triplets alternating between the
open 3rd string and 5th fret 4th string, then a triplet starting at 2nd fret, 4th
string, then open 4th string, then 3rd fret 5th string. Finish with playing an 8th note
on the 2nd fret, 5th string, then 3rd fret 6th string on the 'and' of that beat.

The outro starts with a chord fingered on 2nd fret 4th string and the open 3rd, 2nd, and
1st strings. Next he drops the 2nd fret to the 1st fret 4th string, with the open 3rd
and 2nd, and frets the 3rd fret 1st string. Finish with open 4th, 3rd and 2nd strings
while still holding the 3rd fret 1st string. Cool!

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 31, 2015, 01:06:05 PM
Pink Anderson's 'Fly Away' I keep coming back to D and I'm thinking it's dropped D as I'm hearing a very 'fat' sounding G note when played on the top string which is making me think it's dropped from E to D, if that makes any sense.

Funny Papa Smith's 'Hoppin Toad Frog' I was going with A standard, tuned a a step low.  Then having seen Davek's post 'mI now thinking G a step high as the bit's I'm picking out seem to sit better with G.  Yeah, was going to so A standard but am changing to G standard.  Geez.......tricky business this init..and I used to be so decisive...usually wrong, but at least decisive :-)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on October 31, 2015, 02:00:19 PM

I think Pink Anderson played in E position...not sure about the fingering of the runs or fills, but pretty convinced it's in E...but I've been wrong before.

Papa Smith's Hopping Toad Frog sounds so much like G to me, I'm going to call it G, standard tuning...I was almost thinking Spanish, but the bass notes don't work out right for that....so standard tuning.

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 01, 2015, 08:48:32 AM
I'm plumping for E and G. Just feel right in each case. Pink always seemed to tune low.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: ScottN on November 01, 2015, 01:02:02 PM
I'll cast my lot with:

Pink Anderson in E
Funny Papa Smith in G

Thanks,
            Scott
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 03, 2015, 05:36:54 PM
Hi all,
I'm sorry to be so slow posting the answers on the Pink Anderson and J. T. Smith puzzlers, but I've been kind of slammed recently.  Thanks to all of you who responded.

For Pink Anderson's version of "I'll Fly Away":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, though tuned low.  For almost all of Pink's Recordings done by Samuel Charters for Prestige Bluesville he was tuned at least a full step low, to match up where he wanted to sing the songs with the positions he wanted to play them in.
   * Pink plays the run from :04--:06 like so:  He pinches the open sixth and first strings on the downbeat of the measure, on beat two brushes the second fret of the fourth string and the first fret of the third string with his thumb, and on the + of beat two hits the open sixth string.  On 3 + he goes from the open fifth string to the second fret of the fifth string, and on 4 + he goes from the open fourth string to the first fret of the fourth string, landing on the second fret of the fourth string on the downbeat of the next measure.  This is substantially what Prof Scratchy had.
   * For the run from :15--:17, Pink is working out of his A chord.  On beat 1, he hits the open fifth string.  On 2 + he goes from a brush of the second fret of the fourth, third and second strings on the beat to the third fret of the fifth string on the + of beat 2.  On beat 3, he hammers to the fourth fret of the fifth string from the third fret he hit on the + of beat two.  On beat 4, he hits the second fret of the fourth string.  In the next bar, on beat 1 he bends the fifth fret of the fourth string, on beat 2 hits the second fret of the fourth string, on beat 3 hits the fourth fret of the fifth string and on beat 4 brushes the top of his A chord, the second fret of the fourth, third, second and first strings.  This also is pretty much what the Prof  had.
   * For his turn-around chord at 1:04--1:05, Pink plays a B augmented chord:  X-2-1-0-0-X.  Try it out, it's a pretty cool sound. 

For J. T. Smith's "Hoppin' Toad Frog":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning.
   * For his opening run, from :00--:05, J. T. Smith did the following:  On 1 + he goes from the fifth fret of the fifth string, which he slid into, to the open fourth string.  On beat 2, he plays a triplet, hitting the pitch of the open fourth string three times, either at the open fourth string or at the fifth fret of the fifth string.  On beat 3, he hits the fifth fret of the fifth string.  On 4 + he goes from the fifth fret of the fifth string to a slide into the fifth fret of the fourth string on the + of beat four.  In the next measure he begins with a triplet on beat 1, going from the open third string to the fifth fret of the fourth string and back to the open third string.  On beat 2 he hits another triplet, picking the fifth fret of the fourth string three times.  On beat 3 he hits another triplet, going from the open fourth string to the fourth and then third frets of the fifth string.  On 4 +, he goes from the second fret of the fifth string to the third fret of the sixth string, bouncing up to the open third string, which he hits on beat 1 of the next measure to conclude the run.  Papa john pio and dave had this run pretty much nailed.
   * For his outro, from 2:45--2:48, Smith hits the third fret of the sixth string on beat 1.  On 2 +, he brushes the top four strings twice, while only fretting the second fret of the fourth string.  The strum on the + of beat 2 is tied into beat 3, and on the + of beat 3 he picks the open first string.  On 4 +, he strums the second fret of the fourth string and the open third and second string on beat 4 and gets the first fret of the fourth string and the open third string on the + of beat 4.  In the next measure, on 1 + he strums the open second string and third fret of the first string twice.  On 2 +, he goes from a brush of the first fret of the fourth string and the open third string on the beat to the third fret of the sixth string on the + of beat 2.  On beat 3 he strums the top three strings of a G chord in the treble, 0-0-3.  Once again, papa john pio and dave both described this passage very accurately.

I feel like people did really well with these puzzlers, particularly in choosing the playing positions, which I think is the most important part of the puzzles.  Everyone who responded had at least one of the playing positions correct, and papa john pio, Ross, Phil and Scott had both playing positions correct.  Well done!  Also, Prof Scratchy did a good job of sussing out the Pink Anderson runs, as did papa john pio and dave for the J. T. Smith runs.  Thanks to all who responded, and I'll try to find some more interesting puzzlers soon.

All best,
Johnm

   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 10, 2015, 05:07:59 PM
Hi all,
It has been a little while since we've had some puzzlers and I feel a bit rejuvenated.  The first puzzler this time will be Dr. Ross's "Cat Squirrel".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/QX5GYmGhnRk

INTRO

Well, I'm goin', Lord, I'm goin'
For to wear you off my mind
Lord, you keep me worried
Bothered all, bothered all, bothered all the

Lord, my baby, she got a way
Yes, like cat squirrel in some tree
She get up in the morning
Hawkin' that thing, hawkin' that thing, hawkin' that thing on me

SOLO

Yes, I wrote, wrote her a letter
Lord, a letter just to see
Just to see how much she loved me
Little girl, little girl, little ol' girl

Well, I know she don't love me
She don't love me when I'm home
I'm gonna leave here walking
Running most, running most, running most

The questions on "Cat Squirrel" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Dr. Ross use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the signature lick he plays at the beginning of the song?
   * On what two strings does Dr. Ross fret the accompaniment at the front end of his verses, and where does he fret those two strings?

The second song is E. C. Ball's version of "Pretty Polly".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/4pIW_2G6RBg

INTRO

"Polly, pretty Polly, come go along with me
Polly, pretty Polly, come go along with me
Before we get married, some pleasure to see."

She got up behind him, and away they did go
She got up behind him, and away they did go
Over the hills, through the valleys so low

They went up a little farther, and what did they spy?
They went up a little farther, and what did they spy?
A new-dug grave with a spade lying by

He stabbed her through the heart, her heart blood, it did flow
He stabbed her through the heart, her heart blood, it did flow
And into the grave pretty Polly did go

He threw something over her and turned to go home
He threw something over her and turned to go home
Leaving nothing behind him but the girl there to mourn

"Gentlemen and ladies, I'll bid you farewell.
Gentlemen and ladies, I'll bid you farewell,
For killing pretty Polly will send my soul to hell."

The questions on "Pretty Polly" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did E. C. Ball use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the melodic movement in his bass from :12--:15?

As always, please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers to the questions.  Please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, November 12.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 13, 2015, 06:30:33 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Dr. Ross and E. C. Ball puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on November 13, 2015, 06:47:46 AM
For Pretty Polly, I'd say he is in E position about a half step low.  He's using the high E string as a drone, and the thumb is walking up and down:

4th string 2nd fret,
3rd string 1st fret then 2nd fret then back to 1st  fret
4th string 2nd fret then open,
5th string 2nd fret,
4th string open then 2nd fret,
3d string 1st fret then 2nd fret then back to 1st fret, and finally
4th string second fret.

Modified to correct mistakes and take it all the way to :15 mark. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 13, 2015, 11:56:12 AM
For the Doctor Ross one I'll say he's in Spanish. I saw him many times in the early '70s, and I don't think I saw him play in anything other than Spanish. If that's the case, then he opens up with something like:5/0 2/1p0>1p0 3/0 2/1p0>1p0>3/0, then behind his singing he goes between a bent 3 fr on 5th str and bent 3 fr on 6 str.

For the EC Ball one I'm going to say C capoed around the third fret. His lick would then be: 5/3 4/2>3>2 5/3>2 6/3 5/2>3
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 13, 2015, 12:45:08 PM
Dr.Ross, what theProf. said. Dr Ross played left-handed "upside down" in Spanish.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on November 14, 2015, 02:34:20 PM
Hi all

Here's my attempt to participate:

Quote
The questions on "Cat Squirrel" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Dr. Ross use to play the song?

Agreed on Spanish, as Prof. Scratchy says.

Quote
   * Where did he fret the signature lick he plays at the beginning of the song?

It sounds to me like he's playing the 1st fret of the 2nd string, and then the open 2nd string, repeating those two notes, and then maybe the open 3rd string, while brushing the top strings for the I chord.

Quote
   * On what two strings does Dr. Ross fret the accompaniment at the front end of his verses, and where does he fret those two strings?

I'm hearing the open 3rd string played for 4 8th notes, then a slide from the 3rd to the 4th fret, for the next 2 8th notes, then again 2 open 3rd string 8th notes. Can't really say, if there's only one other string ringing. I tend to hear the open 1st string on top in there as well.

Quote
The questions on "Pretty Polly" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did E. C. Ball use to play the song?
Again, I agree with the prof. The 3rd is ringing open on the top string throughout the song, during the I chord, and at the very end you can hear him arpeggiate the C shape chord.

Quote
   * Where did he fret the melodic movement in his bass from :12--:15?
5th string 3rd fret; to 4th string 2nd fret; to 4th string 3rd fret; then back to the 4th string 2nd fret; then 5th string 3rd fret; down to the 2nd fret; then the 6th string 3rd fret; and back to the 5th string 2nd fret.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 16, 2015, 11:00:15 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intended to respond to the Dr. Ross and E. C. Ball puzzlers has done so by nows, so here are the answers:

For Dr. Ross's "Cat Squirrel":
   * Playing position/tuning is Spanish tuning as Prof Scratchy, blusehome and Pan all had it--well done!.
   * For his opening lick, Dr. Ross is playing very much as Prof Scratchy and Pan had it.  The 2-bar lick sits in the pulse like so:
It starts in the treble on the + of beat 1, hitting the open second string.  On beat 2+ it goes from the first fret of the second string to the open second string, repeating that movement on beat 3+, resolving to the open third string on beat 4 and starting the lick over again with the open second string on the + of beat 4.  It continues the second half of the lick on beat 1 of the second measure, on 1+ going from the first fret of the second string to the open second string, repeating that move on beat 2+, and resolving to the open third string on beat 3 of the second measure.  Beat 4 of the second measure is a breath-catching place, as far as movement in the treble goes, and the lick begins its repetition on the + of beat 1 in the next measure.  At first I thought Dr. Ross was pulling off from the first fret of the second string to the open second string where that movement happens, but upon closer listening, I believe he is doing a down-up brushing movement in the treble, brushing towards the treble on the beat and towards the bass on the +s of his beats.  The lick is a wonderful case of making something really cool out of the simplest of means, and the way it flips relative to where it sits in the two measures it occupies is especially ingenious.
   * Behind the first part of each verse, the only two strings Dr. Ross is fretting are his fourth and his third string.  He frets the fourth string at the second fret and the third string at the third fret.  Those two notes make up a partial IV7 (C7) chord in Spanish tuning, so he has this neat sort of semi-rocking feel going, moving between I and IV7, despite the fact that the two fretted notes never sound simultaneously.  His time is so strong that this on-the-face-of-it simple sort of vamp has tremendous power and rhythmic energy.  He was great!

Here are the answers for E. C. Ball's version of "Pretty Polly":
   * His playing position was C position in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy and Pan had it.  A real give-away of the C position is the "inside-out" alternating bass he plays from :05--:07, alternating from the third fret of the fifth string to the second fret of the fourth string, then from the third fret of the sixth string up to the second fret of the fourth string.  That bass movement is emblematic of C position.
   * For the passage from :12--:15 he plays the following in the bass:
Third fret of the fifth string, open third string, third fret of the fourth string, second fret of the fourth string, third fret of the fifth string, second fret of the fifth string, third fret of the sixth string, second fret of the fifth string, third fret of the fifth string, second fret of the fourth string, third fret of the fourth string, second fret of the fourth string to third fret of the fifth string.  This is substantially what Prof Scratchy and Pan had, with only the second note of the lick differing, and elsewhere in the tune, E. C. Ball does hit the second fret of the fourth string as the second note of the lick.  The lick is a beautiful illustration of taking what the position gives you, for the lick lays out so easily in the left hand, with the third finger fretting the third fret of the sixth, fifth and fourth strings and the second finger fretting the second fret of the fifth and fourth strings, giving the player a really quiet and efficient left hand.
One of the really neat things about the sound of E. C. Ball's lick for "Pretty Polly" is that he is using an "invented" pentatonic scale for the lick, which is to say one that does not derive from the common major pentatonic scale which consists of I-II-III-V-VI-I.  E. C. Ball's pentatonic scale is the much more gnarly I-III-IV-V-VII-I, with the major VII note, at the second fret of the fifth string in the lick a particular tooth-grinder.  Ball's use of this customized Major pentatonic scale for the melody of "Pretty Polly" is considerably more lonesome-sounding than the minor pentatonic scale most often used to play the song, which is I-bIII-IV-V-bVII-I.  Indeed, you can see that in a way, Ball arrived at his scale by raising the bIII and bVII in the minor pentatonic scale.  I don't actually believe that's how he got to the scale, I think it came more from how he found and figured out his guitar part, but there is no way of knowing for sure at this point.  In any event, it would be interesting to see if other applications could be found in the music for the I-III-IV-V-VII-I altered major pentatonic scale he used on "Pretty Polly".  I should note that E. C. Ball sings the scale variably, in that in the upper octave of the melody he sings a bVII and in the lower octave he sings the major VII note, giving the rendition all the more color.  He sure had a lovely tone on the guitar, didn't he?

Thanks to Eric, Allan, Phil and Pan for participating, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I'll try to find some more interesting puzzlers soon.  Also, please feel free to comment on the songs and the thread, whether or not you responded to the puzzler.  That's not the only way of participating.
All best,
Johnm


Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 18, 2015, 10:50:50 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for you.  The first is Georgia Slim's "I've Been Mistreated".  Here is his performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/f9ndVx2CxB4

SOLO

Well, I've been mistreated, and I brought it on myself
Oooo well, and I brought it on myself
Well, the woman that I been lovin', ooo well, well, she loves somebody else

Well, I've been mistreated, can't stand the way my baby do
Ooo well, I can't stand the way my baby do
Well, well, I'm 'round here to tell you, ooo well, well, I don't know what I can do, too

Say, come back, baby, and try your luck again
Ooo well, and try my luck back over again
Well, well, you know the way you treat me, ooo well, well, it's a lonely sin

Well, I'm gonna start walkin', takin' chances I may ride
Ooo well, takin' chances I may ride
Well, well, little broad I had, ooo well, well, she's standin' by another man's side

SOLO (Spoken during solo:  Yeah, I feels mistreated, too.  My gal mistreat me a long time ago.  That was nineteen-thirty.) 

Well, I've been mistreated, I can't stand the way my baby do
Ooo well, can't stand the way my baby do
The way done mistreat me, ooo well, well, ain't a thing on earth I can do 

The questions on "I've Been Mistreated" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Georgia Slim use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the ascending run from :06--:07?
   * Where did he fret the last three bars of his opening solo, from :21--:27?

The second song is Tommy Griffin's "Dream Book Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/bBdgBHgqkQI

INTRO

I dream about my baby every time I go to sleep
I dream 'bout my baby every time I go to sleep
Then the blues come creepin' from my head down to my feet

I hate to dream things about her, Lord, when they is not true
I hate to dream things about her, Lord, when they is not true
It keeps me always worried, always feelin' blue

I'm gon' buy me a dream book, see what my dreamin' means
I'm going to buy me a dream book, see what my dreamin' means
I dream I was mixin' sweet milk with my baby's cream

SOLO (Spoken during solo:  Play it 'til I find out my dreams.  Play it a long time.)

She didn't make no butter, she didn't use any on no bread
She didn't make no butter, she didn't use any on no bread
But she begin talkin', that she was out of her head

I thought she was dyin', I called the ambulance
I thought she was dyin', I called the ambulance
But when I found out the trouble, she was just goin' off in trance

The questions on "Dream Book Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Tommy Griffin use to play the song?
   * Where did Tommy Griffin fret the beginning of his intro, from :00--:06?
   * Where does he fret the ascending line he plays under the opening line of his second verse, from :40--:46?
   * Where does he fret the opening of his solo, from 1:39--1:46?

Please use only your ears and instruments to come up with your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, November 20.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on November 18, 2015, 11:45:18 AM
Saw Eric's note about E.C. Ball's "Pretty Polly" being in E and was thinking he probably was listening to the version on the High Atmosphere album, where he does indeed play it in E and gets quite a different feel.
Chris

https://youtu.be/FuklLWj3jnA
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on November 18, 2015, 03:24:27 PM
Thanks Banjochris,  but the truth is I was fooling around with the an open B flat tuning, which somehow led me in a roundabout way to my usual wrong answer.  On the other hand, I do have the High Atmosphere LP, so I'm going to have a listen...more carefully this time.    :-\
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on November 18, 2015, 03:59:38 PM
Well, that's an amazing album, so you're in for a good time either way!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 18, 2015, 04:09:17 PM
Thanks for posting that other version of "Pretty Polly", Chris.  I'd not heard it before.  It's not all that common for players to play the same song out of two different playing positions.  Interesting!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 21, 2015, 09:09:01 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Georgia Slim and Tommy Griffin puzzlers?  Come one, come all if you have answers you'd like to propose.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 21, 2015, 01:33:12 PM
Just had time to look at the Georgia Slim tune so far.  Here's my take:
E standard, but a half step up.

Where did he fret the ascending run from :06--:07?
Open 5th str then up to 1st and 2nd fret.  Repeat the B on the 2nd fret then open 4th str, to 1st and 2nd fret, then open 6th.

Where did he fret the last three bars of his opening solo, from :21--:27?
Something close to:
4th str 1 - 2 - 1 - 2 - -0 - - - -
5th str - - - - - - - - 2 - - -2 - -
6th str -- - - - - - - - - - 4 - - 0
then goes down
2nd str - 3 - 2 - 1-
3rd str - 4 - 3 - 2 -
always hitting the open first string, finishing up on an E 7th

Hopefully, get to spend some time on the Tomyt Griffin tune tomorrow
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on November 21, 2015, 10:54:53 PM
I'm going to start with the basics.
Georgia Slim is playing in E position, actual key of F.
I didn't figure out the moves enough to write them in detail. I think Old Man Ned is pretty much right on the ascending run.

Tommy Griffin is playing in C position.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 22, 2015, 03:05:33 AM
The questions on "I've Been Mistreated" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Georgia Slim use to play the song? - E capo 1

   * Where did he fret the ascending run from :06--:07? - 5/0>1>2>2  4/0>1>2 6/0

   * Where did he fret the last three bars of his opening solo, from :21--:27? - 4/1>2>1>2  5/1>2>1>2 6>0, then xxx430>xxx320>xxx210>E chord


The questions on "Dream Book Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Tommy Griffin use to play the song? - C standard

   * Here did Tommy Griffin fret the beginning of his intro, from :00--:06?
- 1/0>2>3>1 2/3 3>3b 2/0 3/0 1/0>1>2>3 24b 1/0 2/1 3/2 2/1>1


  * Where does he fret the ascending line he plays under the opening line of his second verse, from :40--:46?
- 5/3 4/0>1>2 repeat

   * Where does he fret the opening of his solo, from 1:39--1:46?
2/4b 1/3 repeat
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 23, 2015, 10:51:54 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intended to respond to the Georgia Slim and Tommy Griffin puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers:
For Georgia Slim's "I've Been Mistreated":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning.  Every responder had this right--well done!
   * His ascending run from :06--:07 was just as Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy had it.  Starting on beat two of a bar, Georgia Slim played a triplet on the fifth string going from the open fifth string to the first and then the second fret.  On beat 3+ of the bar he played the second fret of the fifth string twice (very lightly on the + of the beat).  On beat 4, he played an ascending triplet on the fourth string going from the open string to the first and then the second fret.  He resolved to the open sixth string on the downbeat of the next measure.
   * He played the last three bars of his opening solo, from :21--:27 like so:  In the 10th bar of the form on 1+ and 2+ he went from the first fret of the fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string twice.  On beats 3+ and 4+ he went from the first fret of the fifth string to the second fret of the fifth string twice.  In the eleventh bar of the form, he hit the open sixth string on beat 1, and on the + of beat 1 lightly brushed the third fret of the second string and the open first string.  On beat 2+ he brushed the third fret of the second fret and the open first string twice, on beat 3+ he brushed the second fret of the second string and the open first string twice, and on beat 4+ he brushed the first fret of the second string and the open first string twice.  In the twelfth bar of the form, he brushed the top three strings with the third string fretted at the first fret and the first two strings open on 1+, on 2+ brushed the third string first fret, second string third fret and open first string on the beat, then brushing the third string at the first fret and the first two strings open on the + of the beat.  On beats 3 and 4, he brushed the top three strings with the third string fretted at the first fret and the top two strings open.

Everyone's responses on this song were right on the money.  Georgia Slim certainly sounds as though he had been listening to Peetie Wheatstraw's singing a lot before recording "I've Been Mistreated", even to the extent of emulating Peetie's vocal tone.  He sounded pretty darn good doing it, too, I think.

For Tommy Griffin's "Dream Book Blues":
   * His playing position was C position in standard tuning, as Dave and Prof Scratchy had it.  Every assessment of tuning/playing positions that was posted on these two puzzlers was correct, and you can't do better than that!
   * For his intro, from :00--:06, Tommy Griffin played this:  He sounds as though he was flat-picking, though he may have been using a thumb pick like a flatpick.  His intro starts on the + of beat 3, preceding the final four bars of the form, and he brushes the fourth fret of the second string and the open first string there.  On beat 4+, he brushes the open second string and the first fret of the first string on beat 4 and the second fret of the first string on the + of beat 4.  On 1+ of the next measure he goes from the third fret of the first string to the first fret of the first string.  On beat 2+, he goes from the third fret of the second string to the third fret of the third string.  On 3+, he goes from open second string to the open third string.  On beat 4, he brushes the open second string and the third fret of the first string.  In the next measure, on 1+ he brushes the fourth fret of the second string and the open first string on the beat and picks the first fret of the first string on the + of the beat.  On 2+, he goes from the second fret of the first string to the third fret of the first string.  On 3+, he bends the fourth fret of the second string twice.  On beat 4, he plays a triplet, going from the first fret of the second string to the second fret of the third string and back.  In the next bar, on 1+ and 2+, he goes from the first fret of the second string to the second fret of the third string twice.  On beat 3+, he goes from the first fret of the second string to the open third string.  On beat 4+, he goes from the first fret of the fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string.  On beat 1 of the next bar, he resolves to the third fret of the fifth string, brushing the top of a G chord on beat 2+.
   * For the opening of his second verse, from :40--:46, he played a version of the ascending bass line from "Big Road Blues", converted to C position.  In the first two bars, he plays four triplets, devoting one triplet apiece to the following four pitches--fifth string, third fret, open fourth string, first fret of the fourth string, and second fret of the fourth string.  In the third bar, he plays the same triplets on beats 1, 2, and 3 as he did in the first two bars.  On beat 4, he plays a triplet hitting the second fret of the fourth string twice, then resolving to the third fret of the fifth string.  In the fourth bar, he plays a triplet on beat 1 going from the second fret of the fourth string to the third fret of the fifth string and back.  On beat 2, he plays a triplet going from the third fret of the fifth string to the second fret of the fourth string and back.  On beat 3, he plays a triplet going from the second fret of the fourth string to the third fret of the fifth string, continuing on to the open fifth string.  On beat 4, he plays a triplet, walking up the fifth string from the first fret to the second fret to the third fret.
   * For the opening of his solo, from 1:39--1:46, he uses the Lemon Jefferson technique of brushing the fourth fret of the second string and the open first string, bouncing the finger he uses to fret the second string so that that note is damped on the back end.  He resolves that brush stroke on the + of his beats either to the third fret of the first string as Prof Scratchy had it, or to the first fret of the second string.

I know nothing about Tommy Griffin in the biographical sense, of even if he was the guitarist on the track.  Does anyone have session information on his recordings?  It's possible that he may have been the featured vocalist but was not a player, and was accompanied by a session guitarist and pianist.  I just assumed he was the guitarist on the track, but that may not have been the case.  I would welcome any information about Tommy Griffin and his sessions.

EDITED TO ADD:  Prof Scratchy has provided information that Tommy Griffin, in fact, only sang on his recordings, and was accompanied on "Dream Book Blues" by Earnest "44" Johnson on piano and Walter Jacobs (Vinson) on guitar.  Thanks, Prof!

Thanks to Old Man Ned, Dave and Prof Scratchy for participating.  All of the answers were pretty much spot on, and the most important determination, tuning/playing position was right in every case, which is great to see.  I will look for some more puzzlers to post.

All best,
Johnm   
   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 27, 2015, 10:23:05 AM
Hi all,
I have two new puzzlers for you.  The first is from Cecil Barfield, his "Georgia Blues".  Barfield, who sometimes recorded or identified himself as William Robertson, had a sound that was distinctive to himself, and at a pretty distant remove especially from other Georgia blues musicians who have been recorded.  Here is his "Georgia Blues":

https://youtu.be/PyJTxcZlEKw

SPOKEN:  Let's see now, what I'm gonna do here now

Tell me, baby, why did you love poor man?
Tell me, fair brown, girl, why did you love poor man?
If you not with another man, rider, you oughta come and love with me

Love me, baby, just like I love you
Well, the way I been lovin' you, rider,
I declare I 'clined  feelin' a shame

Takin' my little money, babe, all my love go, too
Well, my money now, havin' that, like my lovin', too

Gal I been lovin', one I crave to see
Yes, the girl I'm lovin', God knows, in love with some other man

See the way you're lovin', girl, I declare it will never do
Can't love me, baby, and love some other man, too

(SPOKEN:  Lord have mercy.  That's what I say about your way of lovin'.)

Looky-here, rider, somethin' going on wrong
Well, it ain't nothin' I heard, girl, I can tell by the way, baby, you're doin'

Followin' my baby, just can't help myself
Pullin' my rider, just can't help myself
Yes, I been lovin' you, fair brown, lovin' you no one else

Going away, baby, wear you off my mind
Going away, fair brown, to wear you off my mind
Well, the way my baby treats me, make me not want to live long

The questions on "Georgia Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Cecil Barfield use to play the song?
   * Where does he finger his recurring bass signature lick, a six-note figure that he plays twice consecutively from 1:53--1:57?

The second song is from K. C. Douglas, his "Make Your Coffee".  Douglas moved from Mississippi to California as a young man, but like Shirley Griffith, who re-located from Mississippi to Indianapolis, retained a strong influence of the players he heard in his youth, like Tommy Johnson and Ishmon Bracey.  Here is "Make Your Coffee":

https://youtu.be/Ue7kwaeey9w

INTRO

Says, I'll cut your kindling, baby, honey, and I'll build your fire
Says, I'll cut your kindling, baby, and I'll build your fire
Says, I'll pack your water, honey, from down on the boggy bayou

You know, I'll make your coffee, bring it to your bed
Says, I'll make your coffee, honey, and bring it to your bed
You know, I'll take my comb, honey, and scratch dandruff from your head

SOLO

I'll put money in your pocket, fill your mouth with gold
Says, I'll put money in your pocket, fill your mouth with gold
If you stay here, mama honey, until I get my roll

I'll wash your dishes, baby, and I'll wax your floor
Says, I'll wash your dishes, honey, and I'll wax your floor
If you got another man, honey, you have to let him go

The questions on "Make Your Coffee" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did K. C. Douglas use to play the song?
   * Where does K. C. Douglas fret his V7 chord that he plays in his opening solo?
   * Where does he finger, and what does he play under the opening vocal line in each of his verses?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers to the questions, and please don't post any answers until 8:00 AM your time on Monday morning, November 30.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 01, 2015, 11:07:44 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Cecil Barfield and K. C. Douglas puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 02, 2015, 03:59:28 AM
OK I'll make a start:
* What playing position/tuning did Cecil Barfield use to play the song? Em standard tuning
   * Where does he finger his recurring bass signature lick, a six-note figure that he plays twice consecutively from 1:53--1:57?
6/0 4/2>0>2 5/0>1h>2h>0>1h>2h>0 6/3>0


  * What playing position/tuning did K. C. Douglas use to play the song? A standard
   * Where does K. C. Douglas fret his V7 chord that he plays in his opening solo? 776750
   * Where does he finger, and what does he play under the opening vocal line in each of his verses? xxx898>xxx9109slide x3
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 03, 2015, 10:36:56 AM
Hi all,
Anyone else care to join Prof Scratchy in answering the Cecil Barfield and K. C. Douglas puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 03, 2015, 11:10:27 AM
Hope so! Don't let me sit on the bench of shame alone!!

Sent from my KFARWI using Tapatalk

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on December 03, 2015, 01:10:08 PM
The only one I had time for was Make Your Coffee, and all I got was I think it is in A...I think the V7 chord is a C7 shape at 5th fret....but that's a guess, and as far as I got.

(Between family, birthdays [grandkids and mine] and BBF tunes, I been busy.  LOL)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 04, 2015, 08:21:16 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intended to respond to the Cecil Barfield and K. C. Douglas puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.

For Cecil Barfield's "Georgia Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning is E position in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy had it.  Well done, Prof!
   * His 6-note bass signature lick that he plays twice consecutively, starting at 1:53 is this:  Open sixth string, open fourth string, third fret of the sixth string, second fret of the fourth string, open fourth string, open fifth string.  It has an odd sort of disjunct sound.
In re-listening to "Georgia Blues", I noticed that the only notes that Cecil Barfield frets in the course of "Georgia Blues" are all located on the second or third frets of the strings on which they're played.  The only fretted notes he plays are:  third fret of the second string, second and third frets of the third string, second fret of the fourth string and third fret of the sixth string.  In the left hand this makes for extreme economy of motion--if he fretted all the second fret notes with his index finger, he could use his second finger for the third frets of the third and sixth strings.  In fact, in the picture that accompanies the video of "Georgia Blues", his left hand is poised in precisely that position.  The resulting sounds strongly emphasize the I and IV chord roots and avoid the V chord altogether; because it never ventures too far away from the I chord and only suggests the IV chord, the song has a sort of unresolved sound, despite hanging around the I note a great deal.  Cecil Barfield is a player who is yet to have been studied any where near adequately, I think.  He's coming from such a different place in terms of his vocal tone and over-all sound, and people may just not know what to make of him.

For K. C. Douglas's "Make Your Coffee":
   * His playing position is A position in standard tuning, as both Prof Scratchy and Ross had it--well done!
   * The V7 chord that Douglas plays in his opening solo is a C7 shape moved up the neck four frets to sound at E, which is exactly what Prof and Ross had--right again!
   * Under the opening line of each of his verses, K. C. Douglas borrows a page from Blind Lemon, and as Prof Scratchy had it, slides a D shape up the neck, sliding into the ninth fret of the first string and resolving to the tenth fret of the second string.  What gives his way of playing this phrase a bit more of a distinctive sound is that under this A phrase in the treble, he hits the open D string in his bass.  That bit of starting a song with the I chord in the treble but the IV root in the bass is a sound that Ed Bell used on "Mamlish Blues" and "Squabblin' Blues".  It's pretty cool, because when the song resolves to the IV chord, it's as though the other shoe drops.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy and Ross for participating and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  People have really been doing well lately in picking the playing position/tuning, and that's great to see.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 08, 2015, 09:09:44 AM
Hi all,
I have been working on transcribing Cecil Barfield's lyrics to "Georgia Blues" and would appreciate some help, especially with the tagline to the second verse.  The song is located at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg95823#msg95823 .  Thanks for any assistance.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 09, 2015, 05:52:56 PM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for interested parties.  The first is JB Lenoir's "I Want To Go", from his "Alabama Blues!" album.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/8QW_SWR05IQ

My name is J B Lenoir, and this the way my song go
Everything must be done, down here on the county farm
Just make me want to go

Everything must be done, down on the county farm
Sleepin' here behind the wall, and bein' treated just like a dog
Just make me want to go

Spoken: A-where I don't know.  I want to leave here and I don't care where I go.

Hey there, little old girl, set down on my knee
I just want to tell you how you been sendin' me
Just make me want to go

Down on the county farm, people, this is a natch'l fact
Eleven-foot cotton sack, hangin' heavy down on my back
Just make me want to go

The questions on "I Want To Go" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did JB play the song out of?
   * Where does he fret the lick he plays from :15--:20 and what strings is he sounding when he plays the lick?

The second puzzler is Bill Williams' "Was That The Human Thing To Do?"  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/DmQIUc74jJ0

The question for "Was That The Human Thing to Do?" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Bill Williams use to play the song?

The third song is Teddy Darby's "My Laona".  Here is his rendition:

https://youtu.be/U8WJQB1GqNU

The questions on "My Laona" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Teddy Darby use to play the song?
   * In the first two bars, under his vocal, how does Teddy Darby change what he plays in the second bar from what he played in the first bar?
   * Why is the song called "My Laona"?

Please use only your ears to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM on Friday, December 11.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 11, 2015, 01:50:20 PM
JB Lenoir's "I Want To Go" for the playing position/tuning I'm going for G in open G tuning and fretting the lick he plays from :15--:20 on the top 2 strings at the 12th fret then dropping down to the 10 fret.

For "Was That The Human Thing to Do?" I'm going with D out of dropped D tuning and Bill Williams sounds about a half step up.

For Teddy Darby as far as I got is with A, standard.  As usual, not enough time to spend on these tunes to do them justice, but just wanted to take a stab at it before I head off for the weekend.



Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: papa john pio on December 12, 2015, 04:27:49 AM
I'll give a try on "My Laona Blues". Jb Lenoir's "I want to go" is beautifull, as  "Was That The Human Thing to Do?",  and I would give a try maybe later.
Teddy Darby plays in the E positions, maybe with a capo on the 1st fret, and I think the E positions are the Darby's most used. On the piano is  Roosevelt Sykes, maybe, and they seem out of tune but still the sound is strangely haunting. That make me wonder if that is intentonal or not.
in the first bar I guess he plays a E7 chord on the first 3 strings, 4th, 3rd, 4th fret respectively, while in the second bar he plays a sort of Em (?) on the first 3 strings, 4th, 5th, 6th fret. I always liked this song, in special way the singing and the riff in E closing the verses, where it's important to me to understand which bass notes he picks, to obtain the right sound. I don't know why is called "My Laona Blues". Maybe Laona, WI? A female forename? Another random dropped title, like " Bracey's "Saturday Blues"? I didn't find anything about.

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 12, 2015, 05:04:22 AM
JB Lenoir is playing in E, capoed at the third fret to sound in G. His riff (assuming the capo represents the zero fret) is played on the second and third strings, starting at the 12th and 13th frets respectively, then dropping that position two frets 10 and 11 before returning to 12 and 13

Not sure about the Bill Williams one but will go with Old Man Ned. The signature lick is easy to do in dropped D, though I think I only hear the low D note at the very end. I was wondering about F for this one, but I?m not proficient enough in F to try to work it out!

I agree with papa john on My  Laona blues: E capoed at the second fret. He starts the verses with the E7 shape as papa john describes. I think he?s just moving that shape down to the D7 on the first and second frets the second pass around, rather than to the Eb7. My Laona? Not a clue!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: papa john pio on December 12, 2015, 09:55:03 AM
Well, after repeated listening, i guess Darby in the second bar, go down with the 2nd string to the 2nd fret coupled withe 1st string at 5th fret and, I can hear, the A bass note. changing from the E bass note, and maybe the 3rd string played free. Is it a sort of A chord?
The IV position as the V are not so difficult to capture, but the E riff is hard to understand correctly.
By the way, I think J.B. Lenoir's is though, molstly because of the fast groove. I think, as prof Scratchy pointed, that is played in E.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 13, 2015, 07:43:08 AM
Had time to listen again to these today and had a rethink.  For JB Lenior, I agree E position, up at the 3rd fret.  I originally thought G standard and playing out of the E shape chord at the 3rd fret but where he hits the repetitive G bass note I was thinking he was doing that alternating between the 6th & 5th string.  This made me think Open G ie catching the G bass notes at the 5th fret, 6th str & open 5th string.  But, if he was doing that, I guess I'd hear more of a drone sound.  I'm also hearing bits now ie 30:32 which would be a pain to play in Open G.  So, as putting a capo at the 3rd fret would be easier, I've come around to what Prof Scratchy and Papa John Pio suggest.

I was wondering about F for this one, but I'’m not proficient enough in F to try to work it out!
I was thinking F as well.  It was just the ending, where I'm hearing the low D in the bass that pushes me towards Dropped D.  Here's the weird thing, when I listen to this tune again, at the start I'm thinking F and at the end I'm thinking D :-\

Yeah, completely screwed up the Ted Darby tune, it's not A standard!

Is it ok to change my mind and have another go?  I'll need to keep working at the Bill Williams tune, who I've never heard before but just grows on me with each listen.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 13, 2015, 07:58:58 AM
Sure, Old Man Ned, you can change your mind, and there's no particular hurry.  Any takers for these puzzlers in addition to Old Man Ned, papa john pio  and Prof Scratchy?
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on December 13, 2015, 08:12:05 AM
J.B.Lenoir E standard or EAEGBE
Bill Williams, not sure
Teddy Darby I thought A at first but it seems to work out of E on the guitar.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on December 13, 2015, 08:38:19 AM
JB Lenoir- E position, capo 3, sounding at G. Riff is played with at 10th fret on first string and 12th fret on second and third string, then slid down a whole step.

Bill Williams- F position tuned low

Teddy Darby - E standard? Not sure about the change in the first two bars or where "Laona" came from
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on December 13, 2015, 08:38:43 AM
The question for "Was That The Human Thing to Do?" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Bill Williams use to play the song?

I was wondering about F for this one, but I'?m not proficient enough in F to try to work it out!
I was thinking F as well.  It was just the ending, where I'm hearing the low D in the bass that pushes me towards Dropped D.  Here's the weird thing, when I listen to this tune again, at the start I'm thinking F and at the end I'm thinking D :-\

When you say D, do you mean the pitch sounded? If so, consider THIS:

the pitch at which a rendition sounds has virtually no bearing on the position/tuning that was used to play a piece on the guitar

Bill Williams is playing in F position on a guitar tuned about 3 half steps low.

If you evaluate the song on the basis of pitch, you'll come away thinking about "D".

If you evaluate the song on the basis of relative note choices, you'll come away thinking about "F".

This is why the pitch of a particular performance is the LEAST persuasive piece of evidence you can use to evaluate how the song is being played.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: papa john pio on December 14, 2015, 10:39:31 AM
I changed my mind too. The II bar of "My Laona Blues" now sound to me like a full AM7 (maybe): 4th,3rd,2nd string on the 2nd fret and 1st string on the 4th fret, with the A bass note on the 5th string played in unison. Indeed a strange Quick Change. Sometimes the piano mess it up a bit, but it's more difficult than expected, by my poor standard.   By the way, Bill Williams is pretty tough; If frankie says is in F I will confidently stick on it, I have no idea.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 14, 2015, 05:57:18 PM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who wished to respond to the JB Lenoir, Bill Williams and Teddy Darby puzzlers has done so by now, so I will post the answers.

For J B Lenoir's "I Want To Go":
   * His playing position was E in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy, papa john pio, Lastfirstface, Old Man Ned and blueshome had it.  Well done!  It was E position in standard tuning rather than EAEGBE tuning for reasons I'll get into in the next answer.
   * J B Lenoir fretted the lick he plays from :15--:19 precisely where Prof Scratchy placed it, at the thirteenth fret of the third string and the twelfth fret of the second string, moving down to the eleventh fret of the third string and the tenth fret of the second string respectively (relative to capo placement)--well done, Prof!  What really makes this lick sing is that against that little two note figure moving down and back up the neck, J B Lenoir keeps the open first string droning, and the timbre of that open first string against the two strings fretted way up the neck has a beautiful exotic sound for which, incidentally, there is no pianistic equivalent.  Later on in the song when Lenoir plays this lick he also occasionally lightly brushes the open fourth string, and its pitch is that of the bVII of the key that he is playing in, so he is in standard tuning, in which the open fourth string is the bVII of the key of the open sixth string, rather than EAEGBE tuning, in which both the open sixth and open fourth strings are I notes when you play in the key of the open sixth string.  Jesse Thomas is another musician who played a lot of partially open voicings up the neck with either the first or the first and second strings open.

I missed hearing J. B. Lenoir altogether when he was alive, and hearing him in recent years has made me realize how much I did miss.  What a wonderful musician--a great singer and guitarist and an outstanding songwriter in the style.  Every song I've heard from the "Alabama Blues!" album that he did has excellent lyrics, memorable melodies and great instrumental hooks, and I believe he played acoustic guitar for the entire record.

For Bill Williams version of "Was That The Human Thing To Do?:
   * His playing position was F position in standard tuning, as Lastfirstface, Frank, Prof Scratchy, and Old Man Ned had it.  What are some factors that would assist in making this unusual identification?
   1) The opening melodic phrase consists of the following scale tones:  III III V V VI VI I I VII VII V VI.  Those notes lay out so beautifully for the left hand in F position in standard tuning, with the III notes at the second fret of the third string, the V notes at the first fret of the second string, the VI notes at the third fret of the second string, the I notes at the first fret of the first string, and the VII notes at the open first string.  Considering how notey that melodic phrase is, only two of the notes in it, the VI and the VII require playing notes that are not already in the F chord as it is normally fretted. 
   2) The progression of the song is III7--VI7--II7--V7 in its bridge, like "I Got Rhythm", and if you listen to those chord shapes, you can hear that the VI7 and V7 chords are both played out of a C7 shape.  Played in the F position, the VI7 and V7 chords would be D7 and C7, and they sure sit easily and naturally.
   3)  If you listen to Bill Williams' bass note choices in the course of his rendition, he hits a lot of III notes of the I chord in the bass.  In the F position, that III note would be A, and putting that open A string in the bass frees up his left hand and allows him to do a lot of free-handing in the treble, which is hugely helpful with such a notey melody.
   4) Also, F position has a distinctive "chunky" sound, due to it being a closed position with no open strings normally played in the I chord, so it doesn't have the kind of freely ringing sound that positions have that employ lots of open strings at the base of the neck.

For Teddy Darby's "My Laona":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, which I think is what everyone who posted an answer on the song ended up with.  Well done!
   * The way Teddy Darby changed what he played in the first two bars of each of his verses is just what papa john pio had in his last post, with regards to the chords Teddy Darby sounded.  Working out of a partial E7 position with his third finger fretting the fourth fret of the third string and his second finger fretting the third fret of the second string, he hit two pick-up notes, going from the open first string to the third fret of the second string on +4, preceding the downbeat of the first measure.  On the downbeat of the first measure he brushes the first three strings, adding his little finger at the fourth fret of the first string to the two notes he was already fretting on the second and third strings, ending up with a D7 shape moved up two frets.  At the end of the first bar, on + 4 +, he goes from the open first string to the third fret of the second string, followed by the second fret of the first string.  On the downbeat of the second bar, he brushes the fourth fret of the first string and the second fret of the second string, playing a partial A major seventh chord, just as papa john pio named it--very well heard, papa john!  The sound of this lick is completely arresting, and one of the neatest things about it is that it is achieved through such simple means in the left hand.  What a difference in sound on those first two strings between 3-4 and 2-4!  That A major seventh chord sounds really exotic.
   * The final question was kind of a joke question.  I don't have the vaguest idea as to why the song was called "My Laona Blues", since Laona is never mentioned in the course of the lyrics.  This one qualifies as a "Mystery Title", like "Saturday Blues", to which papa john pio alluded.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the songs and working out your answers.  I'll try to find some more puzzlers soon.  It's getting harder--we're up to almost 140 puzzlers!  Thanks to everyone who has engaged with these songs.  I've learned so much and heard so many great musicians I never heard before, just in the course of looking for songs to post here.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 18, 2015, 10:58:42 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for you.  The first is from "unknown", who was recorded at the Bellwood Prison in Atlanta.  Here is his song, "Hard Times, Hard Times":

https://youtu.be/r7cJ5Zxosp8

Hard times, hard times, just about to drive me insane
Hard times, hard times, just about to drive me insane
I'm goin' to the freight yard, whoo Lord, and get me a railroad train

Seems like the police and the detectives just won't leave me alone
Seems like the police and the detectives just won't leave me alone
Seems like everything I do, ooo God, I do belong

I'm tired of stayin' in trouble, eatin' out of these county things
I'd've stayed in trouble, eatin' out of these county things
And working life, I play, whoo, every Georgia chain gang

Going to change my way of livin', and try to do right
I'm gonna change my way of livin' and try to do right
I can't stay here in Georgia and do it, because things down here is tight

SOLO

I've been stayin' in trouble, ever since I was sixteen years old
And gettin', gettin' in trouble, ever since I was sixteen years old
Well now, I'm gonna leave Georgia, whoo, and travel another road

 The questions on "Hard Times, Hard Times" are:
   * What playing position/tuning was used to play the song?
   * Unknown plays the same figure four times consecutively for his IV7 chord, from :12--:16.  Where did he fret what he played?
   * Where did unknown fret the walk-down he plays from :22--:24?
   * Where did unknown fret the V7 voicing he plays from :27--:28?
   * Where did unknown fret the walk-up he begins the solo with, starting at 1:36?

The second puzzler is similarly played by unknown, and it is "Georgia Chain Gang".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/0JCKpG5XAEM

I was going down the road, not thinking about not one thing
Well, the next thing that I know, was in a Georgia chain gang

Said, they give me forty years, for robbin' a [bookin' Jew?]
They give me forty years, for robbin' a [bookin' Jew?]
And I said to myself, "I know this can't be true."

I'm gonna leave Georgia, if I have to ride the rods
I'm gonna leave Georgia, if I have to ride the rods
'Cause if I stay up in Georgia, be behind prison bars

When you get in prison, tell you what they will do
When you get in prison, tell you what they will do
They will shackle you down, and make a mule of you

SOLO

If I had a-listened to what my Mama said
If I had listened to what my Mama said
I would be at home, sleepin' in my Mama's bed

SOLO

The questions on "Georgia Chain Gang" are:
   * What playing position/tuning was used to play the song?
   * Where did unknown fret what he plays from :21--24?
   * Where did unknown fret the opening of his solo, from 1:19--1:20?

As always, please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers.  Please don't post any answers before Monday morning, December 21, at 8:00 AM your time.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: papa john pio on December 22, 2015, 01:23:50 PM
They are pretty hard as usual. Fantastic guitarist, no doubt, but  it's hard to tell which tunings/position is using because of the of poor sound quality.  My only shot: Hard Times, Hard Times I think is played in open A tuning.
The IV7 Chord he use, I guess, is fretted 2nd and 3rd strings at the II fret and the 4th string swithcing from the I to II fret
From 22 to 24  I hear something like 2nd string on the III fret and 3rd and 5th string at the IV fret chord shape, moved unchanged down the neck.
The V7 chord I think is fretted 2nd string III fret, 3rd string on the II and maybe the 5th on the II.
The walk-up   starting at 1:36 begins with something like 1st, 2nd and 4th string at V fret, 3rd at the IV. Then this chord shape start from the III fret to the VI and V, but the last chord of the walk-up, at 1:42, is fretted 2nd string at the VI, 3rd at the IV and 4th at the V. Very interesting.
By the way I would like to wish all you guys merry Christmas and peace.
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 23, 2015, 04:00:20 AM
The questions on "Hard Times, Hard Times" are:
   * What playing position/tuning was used to play the song? - A standard tuning
   * Unknown plays the same figure four times consecutively for his IV7 chord, from :12--:16.  Where did he fret what he played? - plays D7 chord x04535, walking up from third to fourth fret on fourth string
   * Where did unknown fret the walk-down he plays from :22--:24? - can't work this out!
   * Where did unknown fret the V7 voicing he plays from :27--:28? - 020132?? - Just guessing though, as I really can't replicate this sound.
   * Where did unknown fret the walk-up he begins the solo with, starting at 1:36? - x02222/ xx0000/ xx1111/ x02222
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 23, 2015, 04:19:01 AM
The questions on "Georgia Chain Gang" are:
   * What playing position/tuning was used to play the song? - C standard
   * Where did unknown fret what he plays from :21--24? - just guessing again here: xx109100>xx878x>xx989x>xx109100
   * Where did unknown fret the opening of his solo, from 1:19--1:20? - 1/321>2/431>3/210>4/3 (guessing again)!

Very sophisticated and jazzy playing from 'Unknown' - are these the Oster recordings? If so, I remember an earlier discussion about these on WC where we surmised Oster might well have known the identities of the musicians he recorded. We also wondered whether he had indeed encountered the musicians in jail, or down his local jazz club!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on December 23, 2015, 06:35:10 AM
Very sophisticated and jazzy playing from 'Unknown' - are these the Oster recordings? If so, I remember an earlier discussion about these on WC where we surmised Oster might well have known the identities of the musicians he recorded. We also wondered whether he had indeed encountered the musicians in jail, or down his local jazz club!

Agreed -  very sophisticated playing! These sound more like recordings that were made by Lawrence Gellert than Harry Oster. I have at least one LP of field recordings by Gellert where the accompanist sounds a lot like this one. These songs might even be on there!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: papa john pio on December 23, 2015, 07:32:01 AM
Well, did we met the same musician in "Ding Dong Ring"? Maybe you all knew that, but I've just realized that they sound the same.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on December 23, 2015, 07:39:45 AM
The only thing I think I figured out is that Georgia Chain Gang is in C standard.  As for what he frets & co....wow.  Hard to hear.  Prof. Scratchy must have some great ears!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 23, 2015, 09:44:37 AM
Gellert indeed. Better ears than brain cells these days. But that's not saying much for the ears!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: papa john pio on December 24, 2015, 06:46:36 AM
I'm sorry, I made a mistake - lapsus calami. The V7 chord I guess is fretted 2nd and 3rd strings at the III fret and the 4th string swithcing from the I to II fret. I really must do some rewiew before posting.
Well, Iohnn, frankie, Prof Scratchy and many other here around they don't have ears, they have stethoscopes.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 24, 2015, 10:31:48 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the two puzzlers played by "unknown"?  I won't post the answers until Sunday, at least, because I expect everybody is busy with other things.  Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and best wishes for a very Happy New Year in 2016 to you all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 27, 2015, 11:34:01 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intended to post on the two puzzlers by "unknown" has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.

For "Hard Times, Hard Times":
   * "Unknown" played in A position in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy had it.  Well done!
   * "Unknown" fretted his IV7 chord from :12--16 by rocking from the third to the fourth fret on his fourth string and then filling out the chord on the first three strings at the second fret of the third string, the first fret of the second string and the open first string, ending up with a rootless D9 chord voiced III-V-bVII-IX, going from the fourth string to the first string, 4-2-1-0.  Mance Lipscomb occasionally used this voicing when playing in A in dropped D, as in his version of "Goin' Down Slow".
   * "Unknown" may have played his walk-down from :22--:24 in two different places.  He is walking down chromatically from a VI7 chord, voiced V-III-bVII through a bVI7 chord voiced the same way to a V7 chord voiced the same way.  Originally I thought he was starting with the VI7 chord, F#7/C#, played out of the C7 shape up at the ninth fret, voiced 9-X-8-9 on the bottom four strings, taking the shape down one fret for his F7/C, then continuing down with it into his E7/B.  After re-listening, based on the phrases that precede and follow the walk-down, I think it is more likely that he played it closer to the base of the neck, out of the F7 position.  Doing it that way, he would get his F#7/C# at X-4-X-3-5, his F7/C at X-3-X-2-4, and his E7/B at X-2-X-1-3, with all three voicings being sounded on the fifth, third and second strings.  Whichever way "unknown" played the walk-down, it required damping an interior string between two strings being sounded, so left hand damping would be required to mute the "in-between" string.  It's an indication of "unknown's" degree of sophistication and skill to be able to flow so seamlessly through a passage that requires some real micro-managing in the left hand.  I hope that those of you who are interested will try this passage both ways, so that you can see what's involved in the left hand in both instances and get the sound associated in your head with where it can be played on the neck of the guitar.  Incidentally, the New Orleans guitarist Johnny St. Cyr and Buddy Moss both used this same walk-down in the version lower down the neck.
   * The V7 voicing that "unknown" played from :27--:28 is the same voicing that he used for the IV7 chord in the second question, but moved up two frets--an E7 chord voiced 6-4-3-0 on the top four strings, from fourth string to first string, III-V-bVII-R.  It seems like "unknown" really liked the sound of that voicing, since he used it for both his IV7 and his V7 chord.
   * "Unknown" begins his solo at 1:36 in an A13 chord, really sort of an A7 chord that also has a sixth that voices the following frets, 5-X-5-6-7-5, and voicing out as R-bVII-III-XIII-R.  He then gets his walk-up by taking this shape down two frets intact to G13, walking up chromatically to G#13 and resolving back to A13.  He does this walk-up a couple of times and then resolves the A13 to A7 by raising the second string one half-step and playing the position 5-X-5-6-8-5.  As far as fingering the A13 goes, you could do it a couple of ways:
   1) An index finger barre at the fifth fret all the way across, with the second finger fretting the sixth fret of the third string and the third finger fretting the seventh fret of the second string.  The fifth string would not be sounded in this fingering and would have to be avoided, no big problem.
   2) Alternatively, you could do a thumb wrap to get the fifth fret of the sixth string, along with an index partial barre of the top four strings at the fifth fret, the second finger fretting the sixth fret of the third string and the fourth finger fretting the seventh fret of the second string.
I suspect that "unknown" used the full barred version of the chord position because it would be easier to move the shape quickly up the neck chromatically than would be the thumb-wrapped version of the chord.  The use of the thirteenth chord identifies "unknown" as a Jazzer of the period, since he employs a more modern chordal vocabulary than even such sophisticated players as Blind Blake, Papa Charlie Jackson and Rev. Gary Davis used.  In a way, "unknown's" playing has more in common with someone like Snooks Eaglin than it does with these musicians playing in earlier styles, and I reckon "unknown's" voicing choices and vocabulary may be taken as indications that he was from a later generation than the previously mentioned musicians..  Frank and Prof Scratchy and papa john pio are right on the mark in identifying "unknown" as a very sophisticated musician.  Lawrence Gellert did a real disservice in not identifying many of the musicians he recorded.  I believe his own justification for keeping the musicians anonymous was to protect them from any reprisals they might be subjected to by prison authorities for the frankness of their lyrics.  Yet, there were plenty of frank lyrics recorded by the Lomaxes and Dr. Harry Oster in prisons with the performers identified.  Not identifying the players makes the whole process seem a little dodgy, to me, at least.

For "Georgia Chain Gang":
   * "Unknown" played in C position, standard tuning as Prof Scratchy and One-Eyed Ross had it.  Well done!
   * The passage from :21--:24 is the same as that that begins at 1:36 in "Hard Times, "Hard Times", but moved up three frets to sound in C, so he starts in a C13, fretted 8-X-8-9-11-8, moved down intact two frets to Bb13, moved up one fret to B13, and then resolved back to C13, with that movement happening a couple of times.
   * "Unknown" began his solo, from 1:19--1:20 with the following run: on Beat 1, a strum of a partial C chord X-3-2-X-1.  On beat 2, a triplet going from third fret to second fret to first fret on the first string.  On beat 3, another triplet, brushing the fourth fret of the second string and the open first string, on the second note sliding down to the third fret of the second string, and on the third note picking the first fret of the second string.  Beat four has the same triplet as beat three, but omits the open first string on the first note of the triplet, so that the triplet all happens on the second string.

If you enjoy "unknown's" playing and would like to hear more of it, you can do a search on youtube for "unknown-field recordings-nico fournier".  Nico Fournier has posted a pile of "unknown's" recordings at youtube.  I think it is most likely that "unknown" played everything with a flat pick in his right hand.  He never plays any kind of alternating or regular monotonic bass, and his playing incorporates nifty strumming for the most part, with occasional florid runs which he was using a pick of some sort to sound.  I suppose he may have played with a thumbpick and fingers, but his playing doesn't really sound like that to me.  In any event, he was a wonderful player.  That having been said, like everybody else, he tended to re-use his ideas and licks, and if you listen to a number of his tracks you'll hear many ideas repeated.  So what!  That's what's known as having an identifiable sound.

Thanks to all those who participated, and I'll look for so more puzzlers to post soon.  I actually have the next ones picked out already and will post them tomorrow.  If anybody has any questions about these puzzlers or any others, please don't hesitate to ask.

All best,
Johnm     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 28, 2015, 09:50:31 AM
Hi all,
It has been a little while since we had some puzzlers which asked only for the playing position/tuning in which the guitarists played their songs, so let's do one like that now.

The first song is "Further Down The Road", performed by Elester Anderson, and recorded by Peter Lowry in concert at Chapel Hill, North Carolina.  Here is the song:

https://youtu.be/FOCGXBHV3Y0

INTRO SOLO

B'lieve I'll go back further on down the road
B'lieve I'll go, further on down the road
Lord, I b'lieve I'll go further on down the road
Lord, and I swear I won't be treated (guitar finishes line)

Mistreat me, you will see it again
Mistreat me, baby, you'll see it again
Mistreat me, God knows, you see it again
Lord, and I swear I won't be treated (guitar finishes line)

SOLO

This could break when you picked all over me
This could break when you picked all over me
This could break when you picked all over me
Lord, but I swear I won't be treated this-a way

SOLO

What playing position/tuning did Elester Anderson use to play "Further Down The Road"?

The second song is Roy Dunn's "Pearl Harbor Blues", also recorded by Peter Lowry.  Here is the song:

https://youtu.be/JmZW0Ay9js0

INTRO SOLO

You know, it was on December the seventh, nineteen hundred and forty-one
Well, it was on December the seventh, nineteen hundred and forty-one
When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, dropped these bombs by the ton

Do you know, I turned on my radio, and I heard President Roosevelt when he said
Well, I turned on my radio, and I heard President Roosevelt when he said
"You know, the Japanese done invaded Pearl Harbor, (spoken: bombed it, that is) and the American boys, I'm gonna have to send them on the way."

They always tell me the Japanese was hard fighters, but ain't no dummy, he ought to know
Oh, the Japanese is hard fighters, any old dummy ought to know
Just like a rattlesnake in its curl, they will warn you before they strike the blow

SOLO INTERLUDE

I'm losin' weight every day now, 'cause my girl won't buy no more beans from me
Lord, I'm losin' weight every day now, 'cause my baby won't buy no more beans for me
It keep me blue and discouraged, down-hearted as a poor man can be

On December the seventh, nineteen hundred and forty-one
Oh, on December the seventh, nineteen hundred and forty-one
When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, dropped them bombs, by the ton

What playing position/tuning did Roy Dunn use to play "Pearl Harbor Blues"?

The third song is Lester McFarland's "Chattanooga Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/v9SDtegxmi8

Went up on Lookout Mountain, looked as far as I could see, tryin' to find the man that made a monkey out of me
I reached the depot in time to catch the Cannonball
I've got the blues for Chattanooga, I won't be back 'til late next Fall

Down in Chickamaugy, as far as I could go, the durndest bunch of soldiers that you ever saw
On the Tennessee River, down to the lock and dam
Lookin' for my good man, thinkin' he might be mud brown

Down in Chickamaugy, on East Main Street, I was watchin' everybody that I chanced to meet
At last I found my daddy, in his Tannery Flats
Dressed in a tailor-made suit and a brand new Stetson hat

"Daddy, sweet Daddy, I know you've quit me now, 'cause
I don't need no Daddy nohow.
Oh, trouble, trouble, is all I ever find.
I'm goin' away and try to wear you off my mind."

Down in Chattanooga, that's hospitality, the finest bunch of people in the state of Tennessee
I'm tired of roaming this way
I've got the blues for Chattanooga, I'm going back and stay some day

Edited 1/7 to pick up correction from Slack

What playing position/tuning did Lester McFarland use to play "Chattanooga Blues"?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM on Wednesday, December 30.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 31, 2015, 09:26:47 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Elester Anderson, Roy Dunn and Lester McFarland puzzlers?  Come one, come all, and Happy New Year!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 02, 2016, 08:20:03 AM
Seems like the New Year celebrations got in the way of the latest puzzler. Hope you all had a good one! I'm going to say C for the Elester Anderson one,  A for the Roy Dunn one, and A for the Lester McFarland one. All of these with the capo in use up and down the neck. Probably entirely wrong, but hope it will get the ball rolling!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on January 02, 2016, 01:00:04 PM
Without a guitar in hand, I'm going to venture C position on the first tune, standard tuning. A position, standard tuning on the second tune. I think it's an open tuning for Chattanooga Blues - I'll go with open G.

Dave
ps Happy New Year all.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on January 02, 2016, 03:19:21 PM
I'd say C standard for Anderson, A standard for Dunn and E standard for McFarland (it's basically Jim Jackson's "Kansas City" capoed up). McFarland's tune is lyrically very close to Clarence Greene's "Johnson City Blues."
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 03, 2016, 08:55:26 AM
I'm going for C, G and E all standard.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 03, 2016, 01:08:26 PM
C, standard tuning for "Further Down The Road" by Elester Anderson, capoed up a couple of frets.
A, standard tuning for  Roy Dunn's "Pearl Harbor Blues", capoed up about 3 frets
Lester McFarland's "Chattanooga Blues" is lovely.  can't decide between D or E standard tuning.  I'm hearing the D shape but can't decide whether it's a little sharp or a little flat and ran out of time.  Lovely tune though and happy New Year everybody.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 04, 2016, 04:34:01 PM
Hi all,
The Elester Anderson, Roy Dunn and Lester McFarland puzzlers have been up for a while and we've gotten a nice bunch of responses at this point, so I'll post the answers.

For Elester Anderson's "Further Down The Road", his playing position was C position in standard tuning.  I think everyone who responded had this right so well done, everybody!  The song reminds me of "Goin' Down the Road, Feelin' Bad" and also Sam Collins' "My Road Is Rough And Rocky". 

Roy Dunn played "Pearl Harbor Blues" out of B position in standard tuning.  This one was a bit of a shocker to me when I heard it--who'd've thunk it?  For his IV7 chord, Roy Dunn works for the most part of a partial C7 shape up the neck, the sound of which is complicated by his hitting the open B string.  His position for the E7 is 0-either 7 or X-6-7-0-0.  When he goes to his V7 chord, F#7, he once again uses a partial C7 shape, but he keeps the low root of the IV chord, the low E string going in the bass, so he ends up with 0-9-8-9.  He plays his I chord, B, both at the seventh fret out of a thumb-wrapped or barred F shape and down the neck, barring the second, third and fourth strings at the fourth fret.  This one is altogether surprising.  I should add that Roi Geyari suggested this song for this thread, over a year ago, I think, and was also the person who posted it on youtube.  Thanks, Roi!

Lester McFarland played "Chattanooga Blues", which I think must have been the source song for Clarence Greene's "Johnson City Blues" as Chris noted, out of E position in standard tuning, as Chris and Phil had it--well done!  One of the interesting things about McFarland's rendition relative to Clarence Greene's "Johnson City Blues" is that Clarence Greene absolutely copped McFarland's opening lick, but transferred it, and his entire rendition, from E position, where McFarland played it, to A position.  McFarland's verse beginning "Down in Chickamauga" makes a hell of a lot more sense then did Clarence Greene's "Down in Nicaragua", though Greene gets points for geographical exoticism, like Willie Blackwell singing about the Pyrenees Mountains, or Robert Johnson singing about China, the Phillipines and Ethiopia.

Thanks to all who participated, and I'll try to find some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on January 04, 2016, 07:53:43 PM
B position who woulda thunk is right! Somewhere on YouTube I think there's footage of Brownie McGhee playing a number in B position. I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: Here it is -- I take no credit for finding this, someone brought it up on here a long time ago...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIKedqvfwyc
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on January 05, 2016, 01:39:15 AM
Brownie McGhee did "Life Is a Gamble" in B; he also had several other songs in that key -- he said during a tour of New Zealand that he did it at least partly to dispel the perception that he could play only in E. Robert Lockwood had a version of "Easy Rider" in B; he used the standard B7 as his root chord, but the rest of it used a lot of his standard Robert Johnson-ish licks in A, but moved up two frets. Which confused the hell out of this old picker -- hearing the up-the-neck stuff, I assumed he was in A with a clamp on the second fret. That worked fine, until I came back to the tonic, when it all turned to doo-doo. Once I cracked the B7 root chord and took the clamp off, it all came good.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 05, 2016, 06:13:21 AM
There's a Tarheel Slim tune, "Wildcat Tamer", earlier in this thread where he uses a B7 chord at the second fret as his "home" I chord, just as you describe Robert Lockwood Jr. as having done, Al.  It's a pretty neat sound.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 06, 2016, 03:45:57 PM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is by Washboard Walter, with John Byrd backing him on 12-string guitar, "Insurance Man Blues".  Here is the duo's performance:

https://youtu.be/8l5WRBIc16E

Insurance man came this morning, he knocked on my door
Insurance man came this mornin' and knocked on my door
I didn't have no money and I told him not to come no more

I'm taken awful sick and I had to go to bed
I's taken awful sick and I had to go to bed
I didn't have no money to get a nurse to hold my head

You will need your insurance, no matter where you go
You will need your insurance no matter where you go
Don't never drive an insurance man from your door

I will have my money next time he comes around
I will have my money next time he comes around
And then I can call up old Dr. Brown

"Time is so tight I can't pay my insurance bill
Time is so tight I can't pay my insurance bill
Please, Mister insurance man, trust me if you will."

Insurance man turned around and he looked me in the eye
Insurance man turned around and looked me in the eye
And said, "No death won't credit you, when you get ready to die."

Oh well, it's Lawdy, Lawdy, what am I to do?
Oh well, it's Lawd, Lawd, Lawd, what am I to do?
Ain't got no money, now my insurance is due

Here are the questions on "Insurance Man Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did John Byrd use to play the song?
   * Where did John Byrd play the long run he plays near the end of the first verse, from :27--:30?
   * Where did John Byrd fret the ascending and descending runs he plays twice at the beginning of the second verse, from :35--:39?

The second puzzler is from Carolina Slim, his song "Jivin' Woman".  Here is performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/kpA379W5WYk

I didn't want to tell you this mornin', baby, but you gon' have to go back where you been
I didn't want to tell you this mornin', baby, you gon' have to go back where you been
'Cause this old mean way that you treat me, it has drove poor me in sin

You left me at eight o'clock last night, you didn't enter 'til a half past three
You left me at eight o'clock last night, you didn't enter 'til half past three
And when you come home you was so drunk, you was crawlin' all on your knees

SOLO

All I asked you, baby, is to please, stop jivin' me
All I asked you, baby, please stop jivin' me
If you know you don't want me, why won't you let me be?

Here are the questions on "Jivin' Woman Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did Carolina Slim use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret what he plays over his IV chord, from :26--:33?
   * Where does Carolina Slim fret the bass run he plays from 1:57--2:02?

Please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time, Friday, January 8.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 07, 2016, 08:40:37 AM
Hi all,
I have been trying to transcribe the lyrics to Lester McFarland's "Chattanooga Blues", at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96139#msg96139 , and would very much appreciate some help with the end of the last line of the second verse, and the end of the second line of the third verse. 

The song is interesting for a number of reasons.  It appears to be the source for Clarence Greene's "Johnson City Blues", which was mentioned earlier, but it's also interesting because from the way the lyrics work, it looks like McFarland lifted the lyrics from a performance by a woman singer, choosing to keep the sexual perspective a woman's.  And finally, it has an unusual blues lyric scheme in that no part of any verse is repeated--each verse changes from beginning to end, a structure that off the top of my head I can only remember seeing before in Luke Jordan's "Church Bell Blues".
In any event, I'd sure appreciate some help with those two places in the lyrics.  Thanks.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on January 07, 2016, 09:08:06 AM
Hi Johnm,

For last line second verse I hear the last word as "town"... phonetically it sounds like' muh town'.  Maybe he flubbed the muh part and meant either 'my town' or 'the town' ?? - either would make sense.

"Tannery flat" sounds right to me.  Combination leather shop and apt rental?

It is interesting that he kept the female perspective.  I've been playing "Johnson city Blues" for awhile and was confused by Clarence Green's "sexual orientation" on that song - and finally decided, he is taking both parts - making a dialog out of the song.  Clarence Green substituting Nicaragua for Chickamaugy is pretty wild - his sense of humor perhaps.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on January 07, 2016, 09:57:22 AM
"Tannery Flats" was a poor neighborhood of Chattanooga. It looks like Ida Cox did the original and she sings "living in Tannery Flats." I think McFarland slurs it a little bit; I suspect he didn't know exactly what it was either.

http://notesfromtheninthcircle.blogspot.com/2012/07/chattanooga-and-its-historic-suburbs.html

Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on January 07, 2016, 10:03:51 AM
Great sleuthing Chris!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 07, 2016, 12:23:49 PM
Thanks for the help with the lyrics, Slack, and thanks for the find of "Tannery Flats", Chris, and the existence of the Ida Cox version.  Here is her version, with apologies to any European Weenies who can not watch this video.  She is accompanied here by Lovie Austin on piano, evidently.

https://youtu.be/UAH4fXnF1jw

Goin' up on Lookout Mountain, lookin' far as I can see, tryin' to find the man that made a monkey out of me
Reached the depot, in time to catch the Cannonball
Got the blues for Chattanooga, won't be back 'til late next Fall

Down in Chickamaugy, Fort Oglethrope [sic], grandest bunch of soldiers that you ever saw
On the Tennessee River, down to the lock and dam
Searching every mudhole, tryin' to find my good man, Sam

I was Market to McCauley, East 9th Street, watching everybody that I chanced to meet
At last I saw my daddy, livin' in Tannery Flats
Dressed in a tailor-made suit and a brand new Stetson hat

"Daddy, sweet daddy, I know you'll quit me now, 'cause I don't need no daddy nohow.
Troubles, troubles is all I ever find.
I'm goin' away, try to wear you off my mind."

Down in Chattanooga, there's hospitality, the finest bunch of people in the state of Tennessee
Tired, tired of roaming this way
Got the blues for Chattanooga, I'm going back to stay someday

I think the end of that second verse by Lester McFarland is "thinkin' he might be MUD BROWN".  Ida Cox talks about mud in her version of the song in that verse.  It is really cool to find what looks to be the source of both Lester McFarland's and Clarence Greene's versions of the song.  I believe the Allen Brothers did a "Chattanooga Blues" that bears no relationship to the Cox/McFarland/Greene songs, apart from its title.  These collaborative finds are really fun--thanks guys!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on January 07, 2016, 12:52:50 PM
The Allen Bros. version starts off not seeming like it's related but has a couple of verses from this version.

https://youtu.be/ZsB1FNiVbis




Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on January 07, 2016, 12:58:28 PM
PS "MUD BROWN" sounds good to me, too, John.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 07, 2016, 12:59:33 PM
Whoa, that Allen Bros. version is LOOSE!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on January 07, 2016, 01:04:29 PM
PS "MUD BROWN" sounds good to me, too, John.
Chris

I agree, this makes sense - more so than my suggestion, because I did not remember the context correctly!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 07, 2016, 02:21:15 PM
Hi all,
I think I have all of Ida Cox's lyrics to "Chattanooga Blues", at http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96289#msg96289 , with the exception of one phrase in the opening line of the second verse.  I'd sure appreciate some help with it.  Thanks for any help.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 07, 2016, 02:42:03 PM
Hi all,
Here are the lyrics to the Allen Brothers version, missing the same place in the lyrics that I'm missing in Ida Cox's version.  Any help is greatly appreciated.  Boy, Austin Allen, whom I believe played the tenor banjo in the duo, played some really nutty double stops on their version of "Chattanooga Blues", and Lee, on guitar, kind of goes crazy on the kazoo.  I'm so happy the recording company seems to have just started recording and let them go!
EDITED TO ADD:  Got it!  Fort Oglethorpe!

INTRO SOLO

Oh, I thought I heard my baby cry, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well
Thought I heard my baby cry
Oh, she cried like she never cried before

Thought I heard old Frisco moan (kazoo)
Oh, he blowed like he never blowed before

Down in Chattanooga, said, hospitality, finest bunch of people in the state of Tennessee
Lordy, Lordy, trouble I do see
I love some woman, but the fool, she don't love me

Down in Chickamauga, Fort Oglethorpe, finest bunch of soldiers that you ever saw
Down the Tennesse River, to the lock and dam
Looking for my good man, my good man, Sam

Late last night, I stoled away and cried, Lord, Lord
Late last night, I stole away and cried
(kazoo, Spoken:  Percolate, mama, percolate.  You know, that's a good mama, come on now, do your papa right, 'tain't gettin' no lovin' in a long, long time.  You know, papa's crazy about them brown eyes, just lay your head over on his shoulder now, mama, and let's, let us percolate one more time.)
Had the blues for Chicago, I couldn't be satisfied

Got the blues so bad, gonna leave old Chattanooga town
Got the blues so bad, gonna leave old Chattanooga town

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on January 07, 2016, 03:34:33 PM
Great read on that Fort Oglethorpe, John, that had me stumped!
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on January 07, 2016, 03:39:21 PM
Quote
Fort Oglethorpe!

No kidding!!  I was completely stumped as well!!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 07, 2016, 04:13:53 PM
Thanks, guys.  I thought I heard Austin Allen start that place in the lyrics with the word "fort", and so did a Google search--Chickamauga--any fort there?, and right away, Fort Oglethorpe came up.  If my elementary school history serves me well, Oglethorpe founded the Georgia colony.  That's a long time ago, elementary school, that is.  Three versions of "Chattanooga Blues" entered in Weeniepedia today--that's what I call a good day!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 10, 2016, 06:01:13 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Washboard Walter/John Byrd and Carolina Slim puzzlers?  They're one page back in the thread, at http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg96278#msg96278 .  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 10, 2016, 07:27:22 AM
I'll say that John Byrd is in G standard.
Where did John Byrd play the long run he plays near the end of the first verse, from :27--:30? - Can't make this out at all!
Where did John Byrd fret the ascending and descending runs he plays twice at the beginning of the second verse, from :35--:39? - I think he may be doing most of this on the second string. Something like: 2/0123321001233210 3/0 2/0 3/0

For the Carolina Slim one:
What playing position/tuning did Carolina Slim use to play the song? -E tuned to C
Where did he fret what he plays over his IV chord, from :26--:33? -5/04 4/25b5b2 5/4 4/2
   * Where does Carolina Slim fret the bass run he plays from 1:57--2:02? Dunno!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 10, 2016, 08:12:15 AM
 For the Washboard Walter/John Byrd and Carolina Slim puzzlers, on just one listening of each, i'm saying G and E respectively.  Doubt I'll get around to deciphering the runs as I've got to go away with my work for a couple of days, but wanted to at least have a crack at the first parts.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 11, 2016, 11:58:01 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Washboard Walter/John Byrd and Carolina Slim puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 12, 2016, 10:56:00 AM
Hi all,
It doesn't appear that anyone is going to be responding to the Washboard Walter/John Byrd and Carolina Slim puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.

For Washboard Walter and John Byrd's "Insurance Man Blues":
   * John Byrd's playing position was G position in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned both had it--well done!
   * John Byrd played his bass run from :27--:30 as follows:  He starts the run on the downbeat of the tenth bar of the first verse, playing a triplet on beat one of that measure going from the open third string to the second fret of the third string and back to the open third string.  On the second beat, he plays another triplet, walking down the third string from the third fret to the second fret to the open third string.  On beat three, he plays a triplet descending the fourth string from the third fret to the second fret to the open fourth string.  On beat four, he plays a triplet on the fifth string, going from the first fret to the open fifth string and then back to the first fret, resolving the run on the downbeat of the eleventh measure by hitting the low I note, the G at the third fret of the sixth string.
   * The runs that John Byrd played from :35--:39 are just as Prof Scratchy had them--well heard!  John Byrd plays an ascending triplet starting on beat four of the twelfth bar of the first verse, ascending the second string chromatically from the open string to the first and second frets, landing on the third fret of the second string on the downbeat of the first beat of the second verse. On the second beat of that measure, he plays a descending chromatic triplet on the second string, going from the third fret to the second and first frets, landing on the open second string on beat three.  On beat four of the first measure, he plays the same ascending triplet he began the passage with, ending up on the third fret of the second string on the downbeat of the second measure.  Beats two and three duplicate what he played on the same beats in the first measure of the verse.  On beat four, he plays a triplet going from the open second string to the first fret of the second string, then returning to the open second string, resolving to the open third string on the downbeat of the third measure.
I certainly wish that John Byrd had been recorded more.  As far as I know, he had only two solo titles under his own name, "Billy Goat Blues" and "Old Timbrook Blues", plus the several tunes he accompanied Washboard Walter on.  He is one of the very strongest 12-string players recorded early on, I think, and his time was really powerful and always spot on.

For Carolina Slim's "Jivin' Woman Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was D position in dropped-D tuning, tuned low.  He was very much working Lightnin' Hopkins' territory here, as he did on most of his recordings, and by extrapolation, Gabriel Brown, whom I believe influenced Lightnin's approach to playing in dropped-D.
   * For his IV chord, from :26--:33, Carolina Slim begins on a G add 9 chord that just honks, in which he sounds the following strings:  5-X-X-0-3-5.  He hits the sixth string, fifth fret on the downbeat of the fifth bar of the form.  On beats two and three of that measure, he plays triplets in the treble, going from the first to the second string and back in that position while striking the sixth string with his thumb on the beat.  On beat four, he plays a triplet with his thumb, going from the open fourth string to the third fret of the fifth string and back to the open fourth string, resolving to the a bent third fret of the fourth string on the downbeat of the sixth bar, which he sustains for the remainder of that measure.
   * Carolina Slim fingered the bass run he played from 1:57--2:02 as follows:  On the down beat of the tenth bar of the form, he plays a triplet going from the open fourth string to the third fret of the fifth string and back to the open fourth string.  On beat two, he plays a broken triplet, hitting the bent third fret of the fourth string on beat two and the + of beat two, then sliding from there up to the seventh fret of the fourth string on beat three, re-hitting that note on the + of beat three.  On beat four, he goes from the seventh fret of the fourth string to the fifth fret of the fourth string on the + of the beat.  On beat five + he strikes the bent third fret of the fourth string twice.  On beat six, he plays  the same triplet he began the run with, going from the open fourth string to the third fret of the fifth string and returning to the open fourth string, resolving to the open sixth string for the downbeat of the eleventh bar of the form.  I did not realize when I selected this run to identify that Carolina Slim used it to play a 6-beat measure, and it is a tribute to his execution and clarity of conception that he maintains such a smooth flow through it.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned for participating.  A question for people who frequent this thread, either as persons who post responses or those who just like to listen to the songs and try to figure them out on their own:  Do any of you ever try to play the runs or passages that I describe in detail?  Please say if you do, because the process of writing out the descriptions is time-consuming, and if no one is doing anything with the descriptions, I would feel less incentive to describe what is being done in such detail.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 12, 2016, 02:16:36 PM
John, I participate in this thread whenever I can, which is more often than not.  I do go over the runs that you described in such detail and am very grateful for the knowledge that you so generously share.  Having said that, I can appreciate that it must take a good deal of effort and would understand if you want to go into less detail. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 12, 2016, 02:47:14 PM
Thanks for your response, Lawrence.  I wouldn't be very enthusiastic about doing the in-depth descriptions of how the passages are played if nobody was trying them out, but if even one person is working them through that makes continuing to do it worthwhile to me.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 14, 2016, 11:09:28 AM
Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers for you.  The first is from a Texas musician, Wright Holmes, doing "Drove From Home Blues".  Thanks to Jeff Peters for making me aware of this musician.  Here is the recording:

https://youtu.be/DNsU4A8Efnc

Well, I done all I could, and I try to get along wit' you,
You had another man, and I swear I'm through wit' you
You treat me low-down and dirty, mama, baby, that's the way you do

I remember one day , now mama, when you drove me from your door
You had the nerve to tell me, "Wright, I don't want you no more."
Nothing for me to do, baby, Lord, but pack my trunk and go

Now, before I left you, now, mama, you just always raisin' sand (Spoken: Talkin' 'bout the girl you call Rosie!)
Just before I left you now, Rosie, you was always raisin' sand (Spoken: I know what you was puttin' down, baby)
You misunderstood me, always tellin' you'd quit me for another man

But that's all right now, mama, baby, that'll be all right for you
Whoo, that's all right now, mama, ah-ha it'll be all right for you
Way you done poor Wright, Rosie, it's bound to come back on you

You know, I was broke and I was hungry, in my pocket I did not have one dime
You know, I was broke, in my pocket I didn't have one dime
And if you put me down that day, you wouldn't come up to see my no time

At-eet-do-deet-do-deet-doh-doh-doh-doh
Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha

The questions on "Drove From Home Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Wright Holmes use to play the song?
   * Where did Wright Holmes fret the descending lick he plays from :37--:39?
   * Where did Wright Holmes finger the V chord he plays at 1:00?

The second song is from Snooks Eaglin, "One More Drink".  Don't worry, I'm not going to ask how he plays those runs!  Here is his performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/_KlauSaG-YA

INTRO

Tell me, pretty baby, what is wrong with you?
You got me worried, baby, 'cause I don't care what you do
REFRAIN: One more drink, one more drink
One more drink, I'll be on my merry way

Goin' out to a party, have a lot of fun
Going, pretty baby, 'cause you is got the gun, now
REFRAIN: One more drink, one more drink
One more drink, I'll be on my merry way

SOLO

Tell me, pretty baby, what is wrong with you?
You goin' out havin' fun, baby, 'cause you don't know what to do
REFRAIN: One more drink, one more drink
One more drink, I'll be on my merry way
I'll be on my merry way 

The questions on "One More Drink" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Snooks use to play the song?
   * Where did Snooks finger the IV7 chord he plays from 1:15--1:19?
   * Where did Snooks finger the I7 chord he plays from 1:41--1:42?

Please use only our ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Sunday, January 17.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on January 17, 2016, 08:54:52 AM
Wright Holmes - Drove From Home Blues
Spanish tuning, key of concert A, so probably capoed up 2 frets.
Descending lick is played on the bottom 4 strings, but the 5th is muted by the fretting
fingers: 3x32, 2x20 0000.
Something like this:
D:     |          555
B:     |
G: 00|20000 0 0
D: 00|30200 0 0
G: 00|x0x00 0 0
D: 00|30200 0 0

V chord is fretted on the 4th thru 1st string like this: 3210

Snooks - One More Drink
Standard tuning, G position
IV7 chord played at fret 5 and 6 with an A7 position on the top 4 strings: 4445.
I7 chord played at fret 7, like so: 7x576x.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on January 17, 2016, 10:35:11 AM
Only worked on the Snooks song, One More Drink

G, std tuning

IV7 chord, I think is an A7 shape played at 5th fret (C7 chord).  [amending this to say it should more properly be 3rd fret, since the root note {C} would be at the 3rd fret of the 5th string.  I was thinking solely of the treble strings, and forget that the chord position is based on the root note in the base.  Duh...brain fart while watching football.]

The I7 chord - I think it's a D7 shape played at the 6th fret....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 17, 2016, 11:08:14 AM
Wright Holmes Spanish
Without a guitar can't figure out more
Snooks felt like G but something not quite right
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 17, 2016, 12:44:32 PM
I was going with A standard for the Wright Holmes tune but have seen a number of posts suggesting 'Spanish tuning" so will check this out if I have time.  I had trouble getting my ears around his 'fuzzy' guitar sound on this one.

I spent more time on the Snooks Eaglin tune as he's one of my all time favourites.  I think G standard, the IV7 chord is around the A7 position at the 3rd fret.  The I7 chord I can't decide between Davek's suggestion, which was my first thought and
X
3
4
3
X
3
which was my second thought.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on January 17, 2016, 01:29:26 PM
Pretty sure the Wright Holmes is in A standard, not Spanish. The sound of the guitar is very "tight" for lack of a better word; doesn't sound like a lot of open strings being used to me.

You can hear him slide into the long A position right at the beginning of the piece as he hits the first I chord. The descending lick is played on the fourth string while he's holding the full A chord. Sometimes its fifth fret then fourth fret, others its fourth fret then third fret, resolving back to the E at the second fret that's part of the A chord.

The V chord is usually a good giveaway between Spanish and A, because that first position D7 in Spanish sounds quite a bit different than a first position E7 in A. At the 1:00 mark it sounds like he's playing either a regular first position E7 or just implying it by playing the D note at the third fret of the second string and playing the E bass along with it. But he bends that VII note, which you pretty much never hear in a first position D7 chord in Spanish.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 18, 2016, 04:34:26 AM
Ill go with A standard for the Wright Holmes one, and G standard for Snooks. Not had time to figure out the detailed questions this time.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 18, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Wright Holmes and Snooks Eaglin puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on January 18, 2016, 05:24:27 PM
I'm going to throw something out for the Snooks song.....

I'm sure it is in G standard, but is it possible (slaps head) that this is in E position with a capo on the third fret?  I played it that way along with the recording, and it seems easier to play in some regards. 

(sometimes, thinking too much is a bad thing, I know)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 20, 2016, 01:41:53 PM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intended to respond to the current puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers. 

For Wright Holmes' "Drove From Home Blues"
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as Old Man Ned, banjochris and Prof Scratchy had it--well done!  There are a number of clues that give this away, one being the sound of the V7 chord, as Chris pointed out.  Another factor is that if you listen at :18--:19, and elsewhere throughout the course of the rendition, Wright Holmes voices the root of the IV chord in the bass at a time when he is free-handing in the treble, not working out of a chordal position.  A position makes this possible, with the open D string serving as a low root of the IV chord; in Spanish though, doing a IV chord with a low root, practically always involves barring at the fifth fret, because the lowest-pitched IV root in Spanish is the fifth fret of the fifth string.  It's one reason why, except when a IV chord is barred, you almost never hear a IV chord in Spanish played with its root in the bass.
   * For the passage from :37--:39, Wright Holmes is doing a sneaky little walk-down, essentially moving his A partial barre from the second fret up to the fifth fret and sounding the fourth and third strings at the fifth fret, followed by the open E string, then moving the partial barre down one fret and sounding the fourth and third strings at the fourth fret, then moving the partial barre back to the second fret and sounding the fourth and third strings there, before hitting a long A chord with his little finger fretting the fifth fret of the first string.
  * The V chord that Wright Holmes hits at 1:00 involves hitting the bVII note, D, at the third fret of the second string, followed by a brush of the open fourth and third strings, making the chord a Vm7 rather than a conventional V7 chord.  Apart from the fretted note on the second string, all of the remaining strings are open.

For Snooks Eaglin's "One More Drink":
   * His playing position was G in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--well done!  Re your question, Ross, of whether it might possibly be played out of E position in standard tuning with a capo on the third fret, a number of factors make that implausible.  First and foremost, Snooks often plays his IV chord as a IV9.  In G position, that chord, a C9, is readily available as X-3-2-3-3-3.  To get the same sound working out of E position in standard tuning capoed to sound at G, you'd have to do the following knuckle-buster:  5-4-5-4-5-X.  Also, the I7 voicing that Snooks played for the third question is not available playing out of E position, capoed to sound at G.
   * The IV7 C7 chord that Snooks played from 1:15--1:19 is as Dave analyzed it--much like moving a partially barred A7 chord at the second fret up three frets, so on the top four strings it would be 5-5-5-6.
   * The I7 chord that Snooks plays from 1:41--1:42 is a G7 that I've sometimes heard described as a "cowboy" chord:
3-2-0-0-0-1.  It is a bit surprising to hear it in the midst of the surrounding sophisticated approach Snooks took for the song.

I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I had only ever heard one Wright Holmes song before, and I sure like his playing and singing.  I'll try to find some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on January 20, 2016, 06:16:55 PM
1st position G7?  Wow.  Have to listen to that again....and again ("etc., etc., etc" as the King would say).

Really helps train the ear when I have the answers and can go back over what I am hearing....Thanks, John.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 22, 2016, 08:52:36 AM
Hi all,
You're welcome, Ross.  I have a couple of new puzzlers for folks who are interested.  The first song is Bumble Bee Slim's "Honey Bee Blues".  He's a little similar to Johnny Temple, in that the record company pretty much stopped letting him play guitar ar a certain point in his career and just had him record as a vocalist.  Here is the song:

https://youtu.be/ZsB1FNiVbis

INTRO SOLO

Honey bee, honey bee, you please come home to me
Honey bee, honey bee, please come home to me
You got the best stinger and honey, any little bee I ever seen

When I rubbed you this morning, you flew away from home
When I rubbed you this morning, you flew away from home
Now I'm wonderin' and worryin', where my little bee has gone

I'm so worried, I can't stay here, my honey bee flew away and I can't say where
Come here, honey bee, stop your funny fuss
Oh, feed me, honey bee, 'til you know I got enough

Mmmm, your honey's so good to me
Mmmm, honey's so good to me
I will sleep all night long, lovin' your honey tree

If you just make the honey, baby, I'll make the comb
If you make the honey, I'll make the comb
All I ask you to do, baby, eat that out of the comb

Mmmm, my little bee done gone
Mmmm, my little bee done gone
I'm sad and blue, that's why I sing this song

The questions on "Honey Bee Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Bumble Bee slim use to play the song?
   * Where is he fretting his IV chord phrase that he plays from :10--:14?
   * Where does he fret what he plays at 2:11?

The second song is Pete Franklin's "Guitar Pete's Blues".  Here is his performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/e7uI9J__Ayk

Lord, I'm goin' down the road, I'm goin' down this road all by myself
Lord, I'm goin' down this road, baby, I'm goin' down this road all by myself
Lord, when I come back here, baby, I hope, and you won't have nobody else

Lord, this lone, lonely, so lonesome, when you gotta travel it all alone
Lord, these blues are so lonesome, When you gotta travel all alone
Lord, you ain't got no woman, each evening when you come home

SOLO

Lord, I hate to leave you, baby, I hate to see you cry
I hate to leave you, baby, woman, I hate to see you cry
But I'm gonna keep on down this highway, baby, until the day I die

I just hate to go, baby, down this lonesome road all by myself
I just hate to go, baby, down this lonesome road all by myself
But the main thought is killin' me, baby, Lord, well, that you gonna be lovin' someone else

SOLO

Mmmm, baby, I'm gonna ride the L & N
Mmm-hmm, baby, I'm gon' ride the L & N
Lord, 'til you get the New York Central, and I don't think we will ever meet again

But I'll send mine out, baby, to the spell Nashville, Tennessee
But I'll send one home, to spell Nashville, Tennessee
Just say, "N-A-S-H-V-I-L-L-E"

I'm leavin' town this morning, you better come and go with me
I'm leavin' town this morning, baby, you better come and go with me
I'm goin' back to the Gateway to The South, back to Nashville, Tennessee

Baby, this old boxcar, rock me like a rockin' chair
Well, this old boxcar, rock me like a rocking chair
But I'm gon' keep on rockin', 'til this L & N train gets me there

SOLO (Spoken, before solo: Here, I'll set you one time.)

Goodbye, baby, red and blue lights behind
Well, the train's at the station, with the red and blue lights behind
Well, the red stand for danger, baby, and the green for my rambling mind

Bye-bye, baby, you're gonna want me back again
I said, bye-bye, baby, gonna want me back again
That's all right, sugar baby, I'll be yours until the end

The questions on "Guitar Pete's Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where does he fret what he plays from :07--:08?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday morning, January 25.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 25, 2016, 04:33:14 AM
BB Slim in A standard
Pete Franklin E standard
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 25, 2016, 12:32:48 PM
For "Honey Bee Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Bumble Bee slim use to play the song?
A standard
   * Where is he fretting his IV chord phrase that he plays from :10--:14?
Playing around a D7 shape?
x
1
2
4
x
2
   * Where does he fret what he plays at 2:11?
Not a clue for this one yet
For "Guitar Pete's Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
E standard (though I've also been thinking open Em as there's bits of it that remind of Skip James playing in that tuning)
   * Where does he fret what he plays from :07--:08?
4
0
4
x
x
x
assuming, it's E standard. I need to listen to this one some more.

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 26, 2016, 05:29:13 AM
* What playing position/tuning did Bumble Bee slim use to play the song? A standard
   * Where is he fretting his IV chord phrase that he plays from :10--:14?: 2/1b;3/2>0>2;2/1b;3/2
   * Where does he fret what he plays at 2:11? - Dunno!

"Guitar Pete's Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song? E tuned low
   * Where does he fret what he plays from :07--:08?: Bends a D shape at 7th fret and then: 1/7>9>7;2/8b;17;2/8b
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on January 26, 2016, 10:09:26 AM
The second song is Pete Franklin's "Guitar Pete's Blues".

there is somethinG *very* interestinG about the Pete Franklin tune...  one very interestinG inGredient...

and E standard is correct, but....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on January 26, 2016, 10:20:02 AM
The second song is Pete Franklin's "Guitar Pete's Blues".

there is somethinG *very* interestinG about the Pete Franklin tune...  one very interestinG inGredient...

and E standard is correct, but....

:)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 27, 2016, 06:16:33 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers of the Bumble Bee Slim and Pete Franklin puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on January 27, 2016, 06:19:58 AM
The second song is Pete Franklin's "Guitar Pete's Blues".

there is somethinG *very* interestinG about the Pete Franklin tune...  one very interestinG inGredient...

and E standard is correct, but....

Ok. I'll take the bait. E standard tuned low, G string replaced with a string tuned an octave high, like the high G in a 12 string set.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on January 28, 2016, 07:01:56 AM
Thought I'd test it out. I threw a spare banjo string on my junk beater guitar and tuned it down. Not easy to keep it tune at that pitch, but fun to mess with:

https://youtu.be/88hyuZPDGNY
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 28, 2016, 09:58:09 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though all the responses that are going to be made on the Bumble Bee Slim and Pete Franklin puzzlers have been posted, so I'll post the answers.

For Bumble Bee Slim's "Honey Bee Blues":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning as blusehome, Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy, all who responded to that puzzler, had it.  Well done!
   * Bumble Bee Slim fretted his IV chord phrase from :10--:14 as follows:  He plays a thumb-wrapped second fret of the sixth string on the + of beat four of the fourth bar, dragging his right thumb through to the open fifth string for the down beat of bar five.  On the + of beat one he plays the first fret of the second string.  On beat two, he plays two sixteenth notes of the first half of the beat, going from the second fret of the third string to the first fret of the third string.  On the + of beat two, he returns to the second fret of the third string.  On beat three + he goes from the first fret of the second string to the second fret of the third string.  On beat four he returns to the second fret of the third string.  From the + of beat four in the fifth bar through the + of beat three in the sixth bar is an exact repetition of what he played from the + of beat four in the fourth bar through the + of beat three in the fifth bar, the section that was just described.  On beat four of the sixth bar, he hits the open first string, and on the + of beat four he hits the open sixth string, dragging his thumb through and hitting the open fifth string on the downbeat of the seventh bar.
   * At 2:11, Bumble Bee Slim is hitting the downbeat of the tenth bar of the form.  He took the E partial he was fretting in the ninth bar at the second fret of the fourth string and first fret of the third string and moved that position up two frets, brushing those two strings with his right thumb on beat 1 of the tenth bar, brushing the open first string on the + of beat one, and re-brushing the third and fourth strings in that position on beat two, and moving back down to the E partial for the remainder of the bar.  That little moment has a kind of spicy sound because the third fret of the third string, A# or Bb, is a bV note relative to the E chord and a b9 note relative to the key of A in which Slim is playing.  It's a note that has a lot of tension built into it in this context.

For Pete Franklin's "Guitar Pete's Blues":
   * For once, both the tuning and playing position need to be identified.  He was playing in E position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded identified, but not exactly standard tuning, in that an octave G string had been substituted for his regular G string, and tuned to the pitch of the first string, third fret.  Frank hinted at this and Lastfirstface picked up on it, and his most recent post shows, it was what enabled Pete Franklin to get the sounds he had on the track.  One of the neat things about that tuning is that it has the effect of turning what would be very normal, even cliched, moves in E position in the left hand into beautifully exotic sounds by virtue of inverting the pitch of the G string relative to everything going on around it.  There is a thread devoted to this tuning at http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=2304.0 , and a discussion of an even more exotic off-shoot of the tuning, in which an octave B string is substituted for a normal B string--a tuning employed by one of the Pruitt twins for Lottie Beamon's "Wayward Girl Blues", and ferreted out by Frank in a bit of inspired aural detective work.  If you're a person who has a lot of guitars, it may be worth dedicating one of them to this tuning (high G), for the sound is so distinctive and unachievable by any other means, and the possibilities of the tuning have not remotely been plumbed in any kind of depth.
   * At 2:11, Pete Franklin is fretting the second fret of the third string, the open second string and the open first string.

Pete Franklin was recorded by Nick Perls during the trip to Indianapolis in the early 1970s that yielded the Shirley Griffith and Yank Rachell Blue Goose albums, and I remember hearing some of the tracks of Pete Franklin that Nick recorded, though it was a long time ago.  At least one of the tracks was on a guitar with the high G, and his playing sounded terrific, as I recall.  The tracks were never issued, partially because there were not enough of them to do an entire album of Pete's music.  I sure would like to hear them again.

Thanks to those who participated in these puzzlers and I'll try to find some more to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 29, 2016, 03:50:51 PM
Replacing the regular g string with an 'octave g string'???  My Bert Weedon 'Play in a Day' book never covered that when I started my love affair with guitar......
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 30, 2016, 09:14:01 AM
I know what you mean, Ned.  It seems like a person is getting away with something when he or she does that!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on January 30, 2016, 12:09:12 PM
That's 153 tune analyses to date, representing an enormous amount of time an effort on our behalf.

I don't always participate in the puzzle guesses, based on my proven ability to be consistently wrong (so far), but I do review John's breakdown of the tune.  It's great learning resource.

Thanks, John
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 31, 2016, 10:27:11 AM
You're welcome, Eric.  I'm reasonably sure that I've been introduced to more different musicians for the first time in the fairly brief course of this thread than in any comparable period in the past.  It's been neat to have an reason to seek out new (to me) sounds in the music, and the participants in the thread really make it all happen.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 01, 2016, 10:31:19 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is Lonnie Johnson's "Blue Ghost Blues", from 1927.  Here is Lonnie Johnson's performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/Qp9BlskYdqU

INTRO

Mmmmmm, I feel myself sinkin' down
Mmmmmm, I feel myself sinkin' down
My body is freezin', I feel something cold creepin' around

My windows is rattlin', my doorknob turnin' 'round and 'round
My windows is rattlin', my doorknob turnin' 'round and 'round
These haunted house blues is killin' me, I feel myself sinkin' down

I been fastened in this haunted house, six long months today
I been fastened in this haunted house, six long months today
The blue ghosts is got the house surrounded, Lord, and I can't get away

They got shotguns and pistols, standing all 'round my door
They got shotguns and pistols, standing all 'round my door
They haunt me all night long, so I can't sleep no more

The blue ghosts haunts me all night, the nightmare ride me all night long
The blue ghosts haunts me at night, the nightmare rides me all night long
They worry me so in this haunted house, I wished I were dead and gone

SOLO

The questions on "Blue Ghost Blues" are as follows:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lonnie Johnson use to play the song?
   * Where did Lonnie Johnson fret the 11th bar of his opening solo, from :06--:08?
   * What chord does he play in the sixth bar of his verses, under his singing?
   * Where did Lonnie Johnson fret what he played in the first bar of the verse, from 1:41--1:43?

The second puzzler is Eddie Hodge's "Blood Red River", which fits right in with the current Song of the Month at the Weenie site.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/p4UAYTBNoCs

Tell me, baby, tell me, Blood Red River run?
Tell me, baby, tell me, Blood Red river run?
Run from my back window, baby, sugar, to the risin' sun

SOLO

Used to be my woman, look who got you now
Used to be my woman, baby, look who got you now
Anywhere you were, baby, swear the stuff is here

Give me your [               ], mama, [    ] your good used car
[                           ], baby, I'm gon' tear your good used car

SOLO

Here are the questions on Eddie Hodge's "Blood Red River":
   * What position/tuning did Eddie Hodge use to play the song?
   * Name the strings that are fretted in the course of "Blood Red River" and where they are fretted.  (Hint:  It's a smaller number than you might think at first.)

As always, please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, February 3.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on February 01, 2016, 10:48:19 AM
John,
Do you really mean 11th bar? Your counting is much different than mine if so.
Dave

Hi all,
   * Where did Lonnie Johnson fret the 11th bar of his opening solo, from :06--:08?

Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 01, 2016, 11:02:07 AM
Ha--good point, Dave!  It would have been the 11th bar had Lonnie played the entire form.  As it was played, though, he was doing the last four bars of the form as an intro, and so the place I'm asking about would be the third bar that he played.  Thanks for the query.  The way I described that was screwed up.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 03, 2016, 12:47:46 PM
Taking Eddie Hodge's "Blood Red River" first, I'm hearing this in Vestapol and hearing strings 1, 2 and 3 fretted at the 3rd, 3rd and first frets respectively.
 
Lonnie Johnson, I need to listen to some more as it takes me a while to get past the awe that overcomes me when I listen to him...but....I'm hearing this in E standard.  For the bit played in the first bar of the verse, from 1:41--1:43 I'm hearing this up at the 4th fret on the G and E strings.  That's as far as I've got for now.
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on February 03, 2016, 03:32:38 PM
I got as fair as (hopefully) Vestapol for Blood Red River before life and my fiddle got in the way....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 04, 2016, 07:09:22 AM
I'm going to risk E standard capoed at the first fret for the Lonnie Johnson one, and crossnote (Dm) for the Eddie Hodge one. Not sure of the detail of either performance though.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on February 04, 2016, 07:28:31 AM
I was leaning strongly toward E on the Lonnie Johnson song, but on re-listening I hear a lot of the major third ringing out on top, so I'm guessing dropped-D. The sort of "open sounding" root of the IV chord made me think maybe playing in D out of half-spanish, but I guess Lonnie could also be fingering that root at the fifth fret on the sixth string while playing a barred chord on top.

The part in his intro solo at 0:06 sounds like he's pinching the third and fifth string while sliding up to second fret on each, then another pinch fingering the first fret of each, the then open third string, fourth string at the third fret, then the open fourth string.

In the sixth bar of the form he switches to a G minor (from the G major in the fifth bar), which I think he's fingering by barring the first three strings at the third fret and the fourth string at the fifth fret (while alternating bass between the fifth fret on the sixth string and the open sixth string.)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 05, 2016, 07:35:13 AM
Firmly with E standard for the Lonnie.
Vasterpol seems to work for the other.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 06, 2016, 08:27:52 AM
Hi all,
I suspect that everyone who intended to respond to the Lonnie Johnson and Eddie Hodge puzzlers has done so by now, so I will post the answers.

For Lonnie Johnson's "Blue Ghost Blues":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning.  You can hear many of the hallmarks of that position's characteristics throughout his rendition:  the index finger hammer to the major third at the first fret of the third string, and the "traveling" V7 chord, with its bass moving up to the fourth fret of the fifth and sixth strings and back down to the second fret of the fifth and sixth strings.
   * Lonnie Johnson played the passage from :06--:08 as follows: On 1 + of that bar he first strikes the open sixth string followed by the open second string.  On beat 2, he slides a B7 shape up to the fourth fret, pinching the fifth and third strings, and on the + of beat 2 he re-strikes the open second string.  On beat 3, he pinches the fifth and third strings at the third fret, and on the + of beat 3, he picks the second fret of the third string.  On beat 4, he pinches the second fret of the fourth string and the open third string, doing a grace note hammer at the first fret of the third string, and on the + of beat 4, he resolves the phrase to the second fret of the fourth string.  Smooth!
   * In the sixth bar of his verses, Lonnie resolves his IV chord A to a IV minor chord, A minor.
   * From 1:41--1:43, Lonnie Johnson plays the fourth fret of the fifth string on beat 1, and the fourth fret of the first string on the + of beat 1.  On beat 2, he picks the open second string.  On beat 3 +, he goes from the fourth fret of the sixth string to the fourth fret of the first string, and he re-icks the open second string on beat 4.

I had not heard Lonnie Johnson play a song in E position, standard tuning from that era, so I was kind of surprised when I heard "Blue Ghost Blues".  He played just as spectacularly in that position as he did in all the others he used.

For Eddie Hodge's "Blood Red River":
   * His playing position/tuning was cross-note, as Prof Scratchy had it--well done, Prof!  Vestapol is disqualified as a possible tuning for the song almost instantly, at :02, :03, and :05 when Eddie Hodge hammers to the major third at the first fret of the third string.  That move is impossible in Vestapol, because the third string in Vestapol is already tuned to the major third.  It is the fastest way to eliminate Vestapol from the running of possible tuning choices for a song that sounds as though it is being played in open tuning.  The only tunings/playing positions commonly in use that allow for the hammer to the major third at the first fret of the third string are E position in standard tuning, cross-note, and EAEGBE tuning.  F position in standard tuning makes the same hammer available a fret higher, at the second fret, but F position sounds so different in all other respects that there is little likelihood of it being taken for any of those tunings/positions.  It really is an important point to remember, though:  If you hear a hammer to the major third at the first fret of the third string, the person is not playing in Vestapol.
   *  What strings did Eddie Hodge fret and where did he fret them in the course of "Blood Red River"?  Well, he never fretted the sixth, fifth or fourth strings.  On the third string, he fretted the first and second frets.  On the second string, he fretted the second, third and fourth frets, and on the first string he fretted the second, third and fourth frets.  He free-hands his accompaniment, never playing any chord positions at all.  I think the way Eddie Hodge used his right hand would be very difficult to suss out, without having seen him play.  That kind of strummy sort of right hand approach, with lots of brush strokes, is much more difficult to figure out by ear than is picking, for me at least.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 11, 2016, 06:50:19 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is from Mississippian Lattie Murrell, with
"Wolf's At Your Door".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/XoursR0OrrA


The questions on "Wolf's At Your Door" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lattie Murrell use to play the song?
   * Where did Lattie Murrell fret what he plays in the first second of the song, and how does that go to establish is tuning/playing position?

The second puzzler is Ed Andrews' "Barrelhouse Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/ZsB1FNiVbis

Hear me knockin', come runnin' to your door
A-hear me knockin', come runnin' to your door
I ain't no stranger, I been here before

SOLO

My Mama told me when I was a child
My Mama told me when I was a child,
"Runnin' 'round and women, get you after awhile."

SOLO

I got nineteen women, I b'lieve I wants one more
Got nineteen women, I b'lieve I wants one more
If the one do suit me, gonna let the nineteen go

SOLO

Give me whiskey when I'm thirsty, water when I'm dry
A-whiskey, thirsty, water when I'm dry
I want its while I'm living, doggone it when I die

The questions on "Barrelhouse Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Ed Andrews use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the chord he plays at :07--:08?
   * What is the bar structure and chord progression of the song?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday, February 13.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 14, 2016, 10:35:17 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Lattie Murrell and Ed Andrews puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on February 14, 2016, 11:23:33 AM
I was hoping that someone else would post on here so I could see how far wrong I was....but for Wolf's at Your Door I am going out on a limb and saying Vestapol tuned a bit flat (or a bit sharp of C).
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 14, 2016, 02:29:36 PM
No guitars around (another story) but I'll go for E standard for Lottie and G standard for Ed andrews.
The little bass run on the Lottie Murrel is a little like Son Bonds Down the Highway.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 15, 2016, 08:42:26 AM
I'm with blueshome on this one. Lattie Murrell is in E and starts his song with a double hammer on on the fifth and fourth strings respectively, going from 5/0>1h>2h then 4/0>1h>2h.

Ed Andrews is in G capoed at second fret. His chord at:07--:08 is 32300X. The progression is a circle of fifths one more or less: G G7 C  E A D G. After the C he plays a chord I don't know the name of - x1212x
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on February 15, 2016, 10:13:03 AM
After reading what Blueshome and the Prof wrote, I listened again.  I'm figuring that if they are right (and I'm sure they are) then I must be hearing the 6 chord (C sharp) and focused in on that...  back to the drawing board.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 16, 2016, 09:41:54 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Lattie Murrell and Ed Andrews puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 17, 2016, 01:43:44 PM
Hi all,
It appears that all the people who intend to the Lattie Murrell and Ed Andrews puzzlers have done so by now, so I will post the answers.
For Lattie Murrell's "Wolf's At Your Door":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, but with the guitar tuned low, at C#F#BEG#C#.  Well done, blueshome and Prof Scratchy to nail that identification.
   * What Lattie Murrell plays in the first second of the song that immediately identifies his playing position as E standard is two thumb-snapped hammers, from IV to V of his scale on the fifth string followed by a hammer from bVII to I on his fourth string, resolving downward from there to a low I note on the open sixth string.  This move is right under the hand in E position in standard, and simply involves hammering from the open fifth string to the second fret of the fifth string, then hammering from the open fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string.  The position makes the move possible.  The same move is not feasible in Vestapol, because in Vestapol the fifth and fourth strings are already the V and I notes where the hammers ended up.  The move is not feasible in cross-note for the same reason.  The move is not feasible in EAEGBE tuning because the fourth string is already a I note, and so you can't hammer to that pitch.  Remember not to place any particular significance on the pitch at which a rendition sounds, since its bearing on playing position/tuning is only coincidental, and doesn't determine the playing position or tuning in any way. 

For Ed Andrews' "Barrelhouse Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was G position in standard tuning as blueshome and Prof Scratchy had it--well done!
   * The chord that Ed Andrews plays at :07--:08 is fretted 3-2-3-0-0-0.  You could call it a G7 with an open first string or a G13, since the open first string is a sixth of G and presence of the seventh in the chord makes it function as a 13th.
   * Ed Andrews progression for the song is:
       |     G       |          G           |           G           |           G7          |

       |     C       |        C#           |           G           |           E           |

       |     A7     |        D             |           G           |           G           |

Ed Andrews fingered the C# chord he played by moving his C chord up one fret and keeping the open strings: 0-4-3-0-2-0 .  The chord functions like a C#dim7 chord.  Pink Anderson was very fond of that chord position, too, and used it in a number of his raggy renditions, like "Traveling Man" and "I Got Mine",  in exactly the same way that Ed Andrews used it.

Thanks to those who participated in the quiz and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 22, 2016, 09:26:32 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is Tony Hollins' "Stamp Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/5tJya4byeaU

The lyrics to "Stamp Blues" can be found at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=9618.msg81517#msg81517 .

The question on "Stamp Blues" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Tony Hollins use to play the song?

The second puzzler is Debs Mays' "Rabbit Blues", recently posted on the site by Lastfirstface, and an exciting find.  Here is "Rabbit Blues":

https://youtu.be/0y2TFqtJa6o

INTRO SOLO

Blues jumped a rabbit and run him one solid mile (Spoken: Catch him, boy)
Blues jumped a rabbit, run him one solid mile
When blues caught that rabbit, that rabbit cried like a child (Spoken: Yeah, listen at him cry)

Going to the race track, to watch my pony run
Going to the race track, to watch my pony run
If I win any money, gwine give my fair brownie some

SOLO

Now it's time for me to go, wish you'd keep my rabbit tied (Spoken: Yeah, don't let him get away while I'm gone)
Now it's time for me to go, could you keep my rabbit tied?
Don't tell him where I'm goin', so he'd be satisfied

The questions on "Rabbit Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Debs Mays use to play the song?
   * Where did Debs Mays fret the first two chord positions he plays in his opening solo?
   * Where did Debs Mays fret what he played from :09--:14?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, February 25.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 26, 2016, 08:02:25 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Tony Hollins and Debs Mays puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on February 26, 2016, 08:55:51 AM
I'm a little lost on Hollins' Stamp blues. The first chord voicing sounds like a D shape fingered up at the 9th and 10th frets, so sounding at A, but its hard for me to hear whats going on underneath that in the bass. I'm inclined to think its in E position capoed up at the 5th fret to A.

Debs Mays Rabbit Blues sounds like E standard to me.

The first chord sounds like he's fingering the first string at the 10th fret and the second string at the 12th after hitting the open bass on the 6th string, then sliding down to a D7 shape at 8th and 8th fret (first string 9th fret, second string 10th fret).

The part from :09--:14 threw me a bit. Sounds like he slides up the g string to the 6th fret, and fingers the first string at the 7th fret, second string at the 5th fret which I guess would be an A9. He then rocks between the first string at the 7th fret and alternately fingering the second string at the 8th fret before dropping it back to the 5th fret. That's the closest I could get!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 26, 2016, 10:38:17 AM
I'm going to say A standard for the first one, and E standard for the second. The chord shapes at the start of the solo sound to me like xxxx12 10 followed by xxx13 12 x.The part from :09--:14 threw me too!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on February 26, 2016, 11:28:46 AM
Hi all

I think I'll agree with Lastfirstface on E standard on "Stamp Blues", although as he says, it's a bit hard to hear the bass strings of the guitar. I thought of D position too, but on the little boogie part he goes down to the root note of the key on the 6th string. Also, in the beginning I think I'm hearing the open 5th string ringing while he takes a D chord shape up two frets. This gives a dissonance to the chord, since the open 5th string is  a 4th of the key, and not part of the I chord. I could be wrong, of course.

On "Rabbit Blues" too, I'll agree with the E standard as Lastfirstface and ProfessorScratchy have said.

For the opening I'm hearing the chords as 0-X-X-13-12-10 and 0-X-X-9-8-9.
on 09--:14 I think he's sliding in with the 3rd string with an A9 chord, 0-X-X-6-8-7, if I'm not mistaken. This chord is familiar to me from William Brown's "Mississippi Blues".

Looking forward for the verdict!

Cheers

Pan

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 26, 2016, 01:22:29 PM
Rabbit Foot blues, I'm in agreement with E standard. For Tony Hollins, there are licks in here that's reminding me of Big Joe Williams playing.  I could be (and most probably am!) way off the mark but I'm going with open G for Stamp Blues.  Unfortunately not had the time to get into the finer details of the tunes but love them and both completely new to me.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on February 27, 2016, 08:56:47 AM
OK, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that was thinking open G tuning for the Stamp Blues....although, I am also sure it is probably way off what it really is.

I'll agree with the group on Rabbit Blues being in E.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 27, 2016, 12:28:07 PM
Stamp Blues, at first I thought Spanish but with a guitar to hand A standard seems to work.
E for t'other
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on February 27, 2016, 07:34:33 PM
but wouldn't Spanish (tuned to A or capo at 2nd fret) voice the same as A in first position?  Well, at least until you go to the 5 chord...
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on February 27, 2016, 08:10:21 PM
Pretty sure Stamp Blues is in A standard. In the break he plays C7-shaped D7 and E7 shapes. The dissonance throughout the tune sounds to me as if he's playing the open 4th string D as a bass even over the I chord.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on February 28, 2016, 07:49:55 AM
The dissonance throughout the tune sounds to me as if he's playing the open 4th string D as a bass even over the I chord.

I should have thought of that!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 28, 2016, 01:41:34 PM
Hi all,
It looks as though all who intend to respond to the Tony Hollins and Debs Mays puzzlers have done so by now, so I will post the answers.  Thanks to all who participated; it makes the discussion so much more lively when there are lots of people responding, and it's neat to see the reasoning that people employed in making their choices for their answers. 

For Tony Hollins' "Stamp Blues":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning with no capo, as Prof Scratchy, blueshome, and banjochris had it--well done!  I thought this was an exceptionally difficult identification to make, and one where you had to listen to the entire track to be reasonably sure of the playing position, which is quite unusual.  It's much more often that you can determine playing position/tuning fairly early in a rendition.
Up to the second solo, at around 1:29, I would have made the same identification of playing position as Lastfirstface and Pan did, E position, capoed up to sound in A.  Even the IV note that Tony Hollins keeps hitting in the bass would be consistent with that identification, because in playing in E position, capoed to the fifth fret and sounding in A, The pitch of the open sixth string at the fifth fret capo position is A and the pitch of the open fifth string at the fifth fret capo position is D.  Thus, Tony Hollins could have been capoed to the fifth fret, playing out of E position, and still hit that IV note on the open fifth string.  As it turns out the IV note that Tony Hollins was playing was located on the open fourth string, playing in A position, without a capo.
The solo at 1:29 blew the capoed E position identification out of the water for me, because all of a sudden, Tony Hollins is soloing in a much lower range, and when he goes to the IV7 and V7 chords in that solo he plays them out of a C7 shape at the fifth and seventh frets respectively, as Chris pointed out.  Moreover, he plays the so-called "long A" chord in the seventh and eighth bars of that solo, X-0-2-2-2-5.  That solo nails the identification down as A position in standard tuning.
Re the question of a possible identification of Spanish tuning, Spanish tuning would not make the IV note available in the bass in any way that wouldn't involve some absolutely knuckle-busting stretches.  Also the C7 shapes Tony Hollins played in the 1:29 solo are implausible in Spanish--the IV7 chord would have to fingered X-5-2-3-1-X to sound that way.

For Debs Mays' "Rabbit Blues":
   * Playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * The first two chord positions Debs Mays played in his opening solo were E7, played at 0-X-X-13-12-10, as Pan had it, and voiced R-3-5-b7, and A9, played at X-0-X-12-12-9, and voiced R-b7-9-3.  I had a dickens of a time hearing and finding that A9 voicing; it is not one I have ever encountered before on a Country Blues recording.  It's so cool the way the move keeps the interior 12th fret of the second string in both chords while the outer voices on the third and first strings shift downwards by a half-step when you go from the E7 to the A9.  Hats off to Debs Mays for big ears and a big imagination!
   * For the passage from :09--:14, Debs Mays slides to the sixth fret of the third string as several of you had it.  In order to play the passage, you have to fret that sixth fret of the third string with your third, or ring finger.  He then fingers the fifth fret of the second string with his second finger, the third fret of the first string with his index finger, and comes on and off the first string at the seventh fret with his little finger, so he's bouncing back and forth between these two shapes on the first three strings:  6-5-3, voiced 3-5-b7, for an A7, and 6-5-7, voiced 3-5-9 for an A9.  Once again, I have never encountered this move before.  It's a little stretchy, but man does it sound great.  It reminds me of the sound of some of the partially open voicings that Jesse Thomas was fond of using.  Once again, hats off to Debs Mays for imagination and originality!

Thanks again to all who participated in the puzzlers.  These were by no means easy, and people were really in the ball park.  I'll look for some more to post soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on February 28, 2016, 05:02:36 PM
Thanks for the detailed analysis, and for a great choice of examples again, John.

Debs Mays sure was a sophisticated player! That A9 voicing is so pretty!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 29, 2016, 06:48:11 AM
Thanks, Pan.  They really are cool songs, and I couldn't agree with you more about Deb Mays and that A9 voicing, it has a special sort of ring to it.  Thanks again to Lastfirstface for finding the Debs Mays tracks and posting them at the site.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on February 29, 2016, 08:16:47 AM
Thanks for all your work on this thread, John. I always learn a lot through the required close listening and its a good way to get out of a rut of playing the same ol' stuff. I was hoping you'd pick one of the Debs Mays songs, they've been in regular rotation for me since I stumbled on them.

-Pete
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 02, 2016, 11:17:59 AM
Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers that I hope folks will find interesting.  The first is "Poor Boy Blues" by Willie Lofton.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/T7L9ftSoX3Y

The lyrics to "Poor Boy Blues" can be found at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=7447.msg59337#msg59337 .

The questions on "Poor Boy Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Lofton use to play the song?
   * Where did Willie Lofton play his ascending, then descending signature lick, from :07--:09?
   * Where did Willie Lofton fret his solo, from 1:08--1:16?

The second puzzler is from Debs Mays, who was featured in the last round of puzzlers, and it is his "Soap Box Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/LjmvgzGrrZ8

INTRO

It's real hot weather, it's time to turn on the fan
It's real hot weather, it's time to turn on the fan (Spoken: Yeah, it's gettin' hot here.)
I got the soap box blues, and I can't wash my hands

Now, when wintertime comes, and the snow starts coming down
When wintertime comes and snow starts coming down
Gonna hunt me a fire, quit all my running around

SOLO

Somebody's been in my soap box, done took all my soap away (Spoken: Yeah, they been a-stealin' my soap.)
Somebody been in my soap box, done took all my soap away
Whoever's been takin' my soap, I wish they'd let it lay

The questions on "Soap Box Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Debs Mays use to play the song?
   * Where did Debs Mays fret the descending walk into his V7 chord at :32--:33?
   * Where did Debs Mays fret his IV chord from 1:20--1:25?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday, March 5.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on March 05, 2016, 01:53:27 PM
Gads.  I hate being first, but here goes.

Poor Boy - G, standard tuning, not sure on the lick and solo, so I'll leave that one alone.

Soap Box Blues - A, standard.  The V7 chord sounds to me like a C7 shape played at 5th fret.  The IV chord I'll toss in an A shape chord at 7th  fret.  (technically, I think that should be 5th fret, but I'm easily confused).

Looking forward to learning how it really is played.....(I've been having such bad luck lately!)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on March 05, 2016, 03:42:40 PM
Lofton is playing standard tuning, G position.
The signature lick is played starting on the 3rd fret, 3rd string, moving to open 2nd string, 1st fret second string, 3rd fret second string, then descending (sort of) 3rd fret 3rd string, open 2nd, and open 3rd.
The solo is played at the 10th fret, a partial A position, with the 10th fret 1st string, 12 fret 2nd and 3rd strings, and open 4th string being played during those seconds.

Deb Mays is playing in A, standard tuning.
The descending walk is played from the 9th fret descending to the 7th fret, using the C7 shape with the ring finger holding the 6th string and muting the 5th. He is playing the 6th, 4th, and 3rd strings.
The IV chord in the solo is played at the 10th fret - a 9th chord variation. 12th fret 1st string, 10th fret 2nd string, and 11th fret 3rd string.

That intro is oh-so-cool! I can't suss out what he is doing, but sounds like it has harmonics on the 2nd and 3rd strings at the 12th fret.
Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 06, 2016, 03:32:41 AM
Pretty much what davek said!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on March 06, 2016, 11:22:05 AM
Agree, G for Willie Lofton and A for Deb Mays and I think DaveK has covered the finer points.

I have to say, I've been really taken with the last 2 puzzlers featuring Deb Mays.  This is one classy guitar player. Is there much known about him and any more recordings available?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 06, 2016, 05:43:03 PM
One thing I would suggest for "Soap Box" is that the E7 walk down may be played by taking a regular open E7 chord (with the pinky 7th) up 2 frets to F#7 and then walking it down, avoiding the sixth and first strings when you play. Same move that Sylvester Weaver makes in Weaver's Blues and Curley Weaver makes in Ticket Agent.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on March 08, 2016, 10:17:41 AM

...The IV chord in the solo is played at the 10th fret - a 9th chord variation. 12th fret 1st string, 10th fret 2nd string, and 11th fret 3rd string....
Dave

What a catch!  Listened again and there it is.  (I don't use 9ths as much as I should so my ear doesn't catch them).
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 08, 2016, 12:15:53 PM
Hi all,
I think all of the responses are in to the Willie Lofton and Debs Mays puzzlers, so I'll post the answers now.

For Willie Lofton's "Poor Boy Blues":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--very well done!  Since the song is essentially a one-chorder, I thought Spanish seemed plausible, but no one went that route, and you all were correct in your choices.
   * For his ascending/descending lick from :07--:09, Willie Lofton did the following:  The ascending line starts on the second beat of the measure, and on 2+ he goes from the open second string to the second string, first fret.  On 3+, he goes from the second fret of the second string to the third fret of the second string.  On 4+, he moves from a grace note pull-off from the second fret of the second string to the open second string on beat four and hits the open third string on the + of beat four.  The open third string is tied into beat 1 of the next measure, and on the + of beat one he hits the third fret of the first string.  On 2+, he goes from the first fret of the first string to the third fret of the second string.  On beat 3, he bends the third fret of the third string, and on 4+ he goes from the bent third fret of the third string to the open third string.
   * Willie Lofton fretted the front end of his solo, from 1:08--1:16, as follows:  He slides into the twelfth fret of the second string, brushing it along with the tenth fret of the first string.  He then lowers the second string to a bent eleventh fret, while he goes back and forth between the tenth and twelfth frets of the first string, brushing the first and second strings with his index finger.  He moves that 11-10 configuration on the second and first strings down three frets, fretting the bent eighth fret of the second string (rasty--a bent I note!) along with the seventh fret of the first string.  He rocks that position back up three frets and back down, then in the lower position brushes the first two strings while going back and forth between the seventh and eighth frets of the first string.  His sound in this portion of the solo reminds me a little bit of Tommy McClennan, though Willie Lofton's time is more frantic than was Tommy McClennan's.

For Debs Mays' "Soap Box Blues":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--well done!  Everyone responder had the positions for both tunes identified correctly, and that's great to see.
   * Debs Mays' descending walk into his V7 chord, from :32--:33 could be played both as Dave and as Chris described it.  I think Chris's solution is more plausible, based on the fact that the run is immediately followed by an open sixth string in the bass, and it sounds like Debs Mays is at the base of the neck, hitting open sixth and first strings.  Both solutions exactly capture what notes were hit in the walk-down, though.
   * For the passage from 1:20--1:25, Debs Mays is sliding into a rootless D9, up the neck, with the tenth fret of the fourth and second strings, the eleventh fret of the third string and the twelfth fret of the first string.  This is essentially what Dave had, with just the fourth string added.  Debs Mays reminds me of Johnny St. Cyr in his fondness for rootless ninth chords.  Way to find that lick, Dave!  Re Old Man Ned's query on Debs Mays bio, Stuart posted a link in a thread in the Super Electric Recordings board, at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=11003.msg96841#msg96841 , that supplies some biographical information on Mays.  Evidently he was named for the Socialist and occasional presidential candidate, Eugene Debs, who once ran for President while in prison!
I'm not sure what effect any of that had on Debs Mays music.

Everyone who responded had the position identifications right this time.  Congratulations to all.  I'll try to find some more puzzlers to post soon, and thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm

   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 13, 2016, 11:32:46 AM
Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers that are a bit different this time, by virtue of the guitar being part of an ensemble, rather than a solo instrument.  The first song is by the duo, Blind Pete and partner, and the tune is "Black Bayou Ain't Got No Bottom".  I don't know if Blind Pete was the fiddler or the guitarist, but in any event, here is the tune:

https://youtu.be/Q-O8pj_kwUY

The question on "Black Bayou Ain't Got No Bottom" is:
   * What playing position/tuning is the guitarist using to back the fiddler on "Black Bayou Ain't Got No Bottom"?

The second song is by Lightnin' Hopkins, "Found My Baby Crying", for which he is joined by a pianist and drummer.  Here is "Found My Baby Crying":

https://youtu.be/loSF7MyjnAE

INTRO

I come home this mornin', yes, I found my baby crying
I come home this mornin', yes, I found my baby crying
I said, "The Lord have mercy.  What is wrong with that little babe of mine?"

You know it hurt me so bad, see them tears roll down my baby's cheek
Yeah, you know it hurt me so bad, see them tears rollin' down my baby's cheek
Whoa, you know I didn't have no money, poor Lightnin' didn't have a bite to eat

SOLO

Don't, don't cry, baby, you know things is bound to change
Don't cry, don't cry, don't cry, baby, you know things is bound to change
Whoa, if I don't bring the bacon in the Winter, rest, for sure, poor Lightnin' bring it in the Spring

SOLO (Spoken:  One more time.  Oh yeah!)

The questions on "Found My Baby Crying" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lightnin' Hopkins use to play the song?
   * Where did Lightnin' fret the very beginning of his introductory solo, from :00--:03?
   * Where did Lightnin' fret the descending run in his later solo, from 2:20--2:23?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, March 15.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the tunes.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on March 13, 2016, 01:54:04 PM
I believe the personnel on "Black Bayou" is George Ryan on guitar and Blind Pete on fiddle, recorded by Alan Lomax in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1934. 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 13, 2016, 05:48:44 PM
Thanks very much for that information, Pete.  I always like to give musicians proper attribution when their identities are known.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on March 15, 2016, 08:11:18 AM
Black Bayou sounds like G capo at 2nd fret (to sound in A).

Lightning Hopkins, in "Found My Baby Crying":  this one has me a bit confused, since there are two ways I could do this, and sound the same.  My first thought was in F, then thinking maybe E capo at one - but I was always told to stick with my first choice, so I'll say F.

The opening run in F would be 5th string, 3rd fret, 4 open, 4 3rd fret, 3rd string 2nd fret.

Didn't get the 2:20 to 2:23 run.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 16, 2016, 06:24:24 AM
Agree with one-eyed ross for the first one: G capoed to sound in A.

For the Lightnin? one, I?ll say E, sounding in F. In the first three seconds he goes from 2nd to 4th fret on the fifth string, second fret 4th string, then fourth fret, 4th string sliding to 6th fret 4th string played together  as a partial chord with 4th fret 3rd string.

For the descending lick at 2:20 something like: 5/0>1/slide to >5>3; 2/5>3; 3/3 slide to 4; 2/3; 3/4>2>0; 4/2; 6/0
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 17, 2016, 03:35:16 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Blind Pete and partner and Lightnin' Hopkins puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on March 17, 2016, 06:20:23 PM
Hi all.

I think I'll agree with One-Eyed Ross and Professor Scratchy on G-position on "Black Bayou". It's hard to hear what chords he might be playing, but the bass line only seems to go down to the low 6th note, which would be the open 6th string on G position.

For Lightning, I'll again agree with Professor on E position. I also agree with him on the starting notes, with the addition, that Lightning seems to be brushing a lot of open strings along with the fretted ones, on the chord he ends up on beat one. Could he be playing 0-X-6-4-0-0, with the fretted notes slid in, as Professor suggests? It also sounds faintly like he is maybe changing the chord on the last moment, maybe to a 0-X-9-7-0-0?

For the descending lick, I'm guessing 1stg 5th fre slid in, 3rd fret very slightly bent, open 1st strg; then 2nd strg 5th fret slid in, this repeated, 2nd strg 3rd fret, open 2nd strg; 3rs strg 2nd fret, open 3rd string quickly hammered to the 1st fret; then the 4th strg 2nd fret; followed by the open 6th strg.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 21, 2016, 05:29:05 PM
Hi all,
It has been a while since anyone posted a response on the Blind Pete and partner and Lightnin' Hopkins puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.

For "Black Bayou Ain't Got No Bottom":
   * George Ryan's  playing position was G position in standard tuning as Ross, Scratchy and Pan all had it--well done, guys!  I love Ryan's back-up playing on this tune, it is so lively, and his left hand is practically still, with all of those runs sitting right under his hand without his having to move it up or down the neck.  Brilliant!

For Lightnin' Hopkins' "Found My Baby Cryin'":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning as Prof Scratchy and Pan had it--well done!
   * Lightnin fretted the opening of his introductory solo, from :00--:03, pretty much exactly as Pan had it.  He began with a triplet pick-up beat in which he went from the second fret of the fifth string to the fourth fret of the fifth string and from there to the second fret of the fourth string.  On the downbeat of the form, he slides into the sixth fret of the fourth string and frets the fourth fret of the third string, brushing the top three strings.  That little position that Lightnin' is in there, 0-X-6-4-0-0, is a partial of an E chord played out of the C position:  0-7-6-4-5-0, and the way Lightnin' incorporated the open second and first strings into it sounds great, and is very hand-friendly, too.  Good call on that one, Pan, and Prof Scratchy pretty much had it too.
   * Lightnin's run from 2:20--2:23 was fretted as follows:  On the + of beat one, Lightnin' slides into the fifth fret of the first string.  On beat two, he plays a triplet going from the third fret of the first string to the open first string, followed by a grace note hammer from the third fret of the second string to the fifth fret of the second string.  On beat three, he plays another triplet, going from a grace note hammer from the third to the fifth fret on the second string to the third fret of the second string to the fourth fret of the third string.  On beat four, he plays one more triplet, going from the second fret of the third string to a grace note hammer from the open third string to the first fret of the third string, ending up on the second fret of the fourth string.  He then hits the open sixth string on the downbeat of the eleventh bar of the form.  This is essentially exactly what Pan had--very well done, Pan, that's aces!

I hope folks enjoyed the tunes, and thanks to Ross, Prof Scratchy and Pan for participating.  I'll try to find some new puzzlers to post here soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 27, 2016, 06:51:11 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for folks who are interested.  The first is by Doug Quattlebaum, and it is his "Sweet Little Woman".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/owHR3oS0Tes

INTRO

Well, you used to be a sweet little woman, but baby, now you're beginning to run around
Yes, you used to be a sweet little woman, but baby, now you're beginning to run around
Well, I got the news last night, that you's the baddest little woman in town

Well, you's a pretty little woman, but baby, don't forget pretty is not but skin deep
Yes, you's a pretty little woman, but baby, don't forget pretty is not but skin deep
Yes, when we were layin' in bed the other night, you were callin' out all your men's names in your sleep

Well, the only thing hurtin' me so bad, baby, you was callin' out my best friend name
Yes, the only thing hurtin' me so bad, baby, you was callin' out my best friend name
Well, I guess if that's the way it is, baby, our love will have to come to an end

SOLO

Well, I'm sorry, pretty mama, baby, our love will have to end this way
Yes, I'm sorry, my darling, baby, our love will have to end this way
Well, you started to run around, just look at the price you will have to pay one day

The questions on "Sweet Little Woman" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Doug Quattlebaum use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the run he plays from :23--:26?
   * Where did he fret the tun he plays from :39--:42?

The second puzzler is from Robert Curtis Smith, and it is his "I'm Going Away".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/LwyuSmI47uc

SOLO

Well, I'm goin' away must to wear you off my mind
Well, I'm goin' away just to wear you off my mind
Lord, I'll stay 'round here, I'd be bothered all the time

Well, if you don't want me, baby, please don't dog me 'round
Well, if you don't want me, baby, please don't dog me 'round
Well, just like you found me, you can put me down

Well, now it ain't but one thing, one thing I did wrong
Well, now it ain't but the one thing, one thing I did wrong
Well, I let you mistreat me, little bit too long

Well, I ain't never loved but just four womens in my life
Well, I ain't never loved but just four womens in my life
That's my mother and my sister, my sweetheart and my wife

OUTRO




The questions on "I'm Going Away" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Robert Curtis Smith use to play the song?
   * At what fret of what string did Robert Curtis do the "bend and release" in his signature lick, which happens for the first time at :05?
   * Where did Robert Curtis Smith fret his fifth and sixth strings at the tail end of his signature lick, as at :08--:09?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Tuesday morning, March 29 at 8:00 AM your time.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 28, 2016, 07:04:51 AM
Doug Q - Vastapol. I'll try the licks when I've access to a guitar

RC Smith - Spanish. I hear the bend at 3rd fret 3rd string but again need access to a guitar.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 29, 2016, 06:26:57 AM
I agree with blueshome that the first one is on vestapol (open D)

from :23?:26: 3b 1/0>3>0 2/3b>0 3/2>1>0 4/0

from :39?:42: /3b 4/0>3>0 5/3>0>3>0 6/5>3>0

For the Robert Curtis one I have him playing in E standard.

At what fret of what string did Robert Curtis do the "bend and release" in his signature lick, which happens for the first time at :05?
3rd str 3rd fret

Where did Robert Curtis Smith fret his fifth and sixth strings at the tail end of his signature lick, as at :08--:09?
4/1h2>0 5/2 4/0>2 6//0
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on March 29, 2016, 09:54:41 AM
Sweet Little Woman - Vestapol.

I'm Going Away - E standard, I'm thinking.  Although, to me, it almost sounds like that opening chord is an Em (Dm played up two frets)....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on March 30, 2016, 11:53:40 AM
Agree with everyone on Vestapol for Sweet Little Women.  I think the give away is in the first couple of seconds when the strings are picked from the 6th through to the first, spelling out the chord and to me, they all sound like open strings.

In agreement with Prof Scratchy for the remaining questions though would add an extra 3b>0 on the 2nd string, giving (?)
3b 1/0>3>0 2/3b>0 3b>0 3/2>1>0 4/0

For RC Smith's 'Going Away', I'm also hearing E standard and 3rd string 3rd fret for the bend. For the last part of the puzzle, fretting his fifth and sixth strings at the 2nd and 3rd frets respectively at the tail end of his signature lick.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 31, 2016, 08:46:36 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Doug Quattlebaum and Robert Curtis Smith puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 03, 2016, 11:50:51 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the Doug Quattlebaum and Robert Curtis Smith puzzlers has done so, so I'll post the answers.

For Doug Quattlebaum's "Sweet Little Woman":
   * His playing position/tuning was Vestapol, as everyone who responded had it.  Well done!  All of Doug Quattlebaum's recordings that I have heard, either on Prestige Bluesville or on Testament were done in Vestapol, so he shared that preference with another musician who ended up in Philadelphia, Connie Williams. 
   * He fretted the lick he played from :23--26 as follows: On beat two of the third bar, a slow triplet going from the third fret of the second string to open first string followed by bent third fret of the first string, on beat three, two sixteenth notes going from the open first string to the bent third fret of the second string then open second string returning to the bent third fret of the second string, beat four a triplet going from the open second string to the first fret of the third string and then the open third string, landing on the open fourth string on the downbeat of the fourth bar.  This is very close or exactly what Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned had, well done.
   * He played the lick from :39--:42 as follows:  On beat two of the seventh bar a triplet going from the bent third fret of the fifth string to the open fourth string to the bent third fret of the fourth string.  On beat three, two sixteenth notes, going from the open fourth string to the bent third fret of the fifth string followed by eighth notes moving from the open fourth string to the bent third fret of the fifth string.  On beat four, a triplet going from the open fifth string to the fifth fret of the sixth string followed by the third fret of the sixth string, resolving to the open sixth string on the downbeat of the eighth bar.  This run is very close to the one played from :23--:26 moved down an octave, though it is fretted in different places because of the tuning.  Prof Scratchy had this one dead on, well done!

Doug Quattlebaum was originally from South Carolina, I believe, and like Tarheel Slim, had done a lot of singing in Gospel quartets, which really showed up in his singing in a way that I very much liked and admired, just as I did with Tarheel Slim's singing.

For Robert Curtis Smith's "I'm Going Away":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy, One-Eyed Ross, and Old Man Ned had it--well done!
   * His bend and release that he sometimes does in his signature lick was done from the second fret of the third string.  You can tell this by listening to his pull-off release of the string at the end of the bend and release--it is going down into the open third string by descending one whole step.  If he was doing the bend and release from the third fret, it would be going into the open third string by a step-and-a-half (minor third).
   * At the tail end of his signature lick, Robert Curtis Smith hammered from the open fifth string to the second fret of the fifth string, resolving up to the open fourth string, then went from the third fret of the sisth string to the second fret of the fourth string, resolving finally to the open sixth string.  So, he fretted the second fret of the fifth string and the third fret of the sixth string, which is exactly what Old Man Ned had--well done!

I sure like that one album Robert  Curtis Smith had on Prestige Bluesville, and his cuts on the Arhoolie compilation, "I Have To Paint My Face".  I remember Michael Roach telling me that Paul Oliver had said he had at least an album's worth of unreleased recordings of Robert Curtis Smith in his archive.  I wonder how long it has been since anyone listened to those recordings!
Thanks to all who participated in the puzzlers, I feel like people were right in the ball park with their answers.  I will try to find some more interesting puzzlers to post soon.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 10, 2016, 03:57:40 PM
Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is John Jackson's "Bearcat Blues", which he recorded originally for his second album on Arhoolie.  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/Tu7-jmBYzTU

Said, bearcat, wildcat, stayed home last night
Said, bearcat, wildcat, stayed home last night
Says, all they do is nothin' but fuss and fight

I'm leavin' here runnin', walkin' is too slow
I'm leavin' here runnin', walkin' is too slow
I'm leavin' you, mama, never come back no more

Says, tell me, mama, honey, where you stay last night?
Says, tell me, mama, honey, where you stay last night?
Your clothes all tangled, clothes ain't fittin' you right

The questions on "Bearcat Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did John Jackson use to play "Bearcat Blues"?
   * Where does he fret the beginning of his solo, starting at 1:08, until he goes to the V chord?

The second song is Archie Edwards' "Pittsburgh Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/jvDPDWublwc

I'm goin' up to Pittsburgh, to see that old girlfriend of mine
Yes, I'm goin' to Pittsburgh, just see that old girlfriend of mine
I haven't seen her since I was a little boy, Lord knows, that's been a long, long time

SOLO

She settled down in Pittsburgh, while I was hangin' around the Columbus, O
Yes, she settle down in Pittsburgh, while I was hangin' around the Columbus, O
Uncle Sam dragged me in the army, and I picked like I never did get a chance to go

SOLO

Somebody told me she was in Pittsburgh, but one time I heard from her she was in Buffalo
Yes, somebody told me she was in Pittsburgh, but one time I heard from her she was in Buffalo
But one thing that I know, I can't see her smilin' face no more

SOLO

Yes, I'm goin' to Pittsburgh, to see that old girlfriend of mine
Yes, I'm goin' to PIttsburgh, just see that old girlfriend of mine
I haven't seen her since I was a little boy, Lord knows, that's been a long, long time

The questions on "Pittsburgh Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Archie Edwards use to play the song?
   * Where does Archie Edwards fret his IV7 chord from 1:14--1:18?

Please use only your ears and your instrument to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, April 12.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on April 12, 2016, 05:49:32 AM
I ain't never played this game before, and I'll probably mess up, but what the hell ...

John Jackson: Vastapol tuning in F sharp (it's too close to Blind Blake's Police Dog Blues to be anything else). Solo starts on the top string four frets above the capo, goes to fifth fret second string then 8th fret top.

Archie Edwards: Standard tuning, key of A. The IV7 sounds to me like the good ol' C7 shape slid up two frets to D7, but it cld be a variant.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on April 12, 2016, 06:58:59 AM
John Jackson:
-G position
-Fingers beginning of solo at 1:08 as a D shape at the 7th and 8th frets, grabbing notes above that with his pinky and picking the open D string bass

Archie Edwards:
-A position
-Fingers IV7 chord as a C7 shape moved up a whole step

--x
--3
--5
--4
--5
--x
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on April 12, 2016, 08:00:13 AM
Bearcat Blues - I want to say G, std tuning.....the start of the solo sure sounds like a D shaped chord played up at 7th fret....

Pittsburgh blues - A std sounds right, with a C7 shaped D chord.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 12, 2016, 09:39:07 AM
I'm away from home just now with a dodgy internet connection and no guitar - however I'll guess Vestapol for Bearcat Blues and A for Pittsburgh.


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Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on April 12, 2016, 12:26:51 PM
"Bearcat Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did John Jackson use to play "Bearcat Blues"?
I'm hearing this in G standard
   * Where does he fret the beginning of his solo, starting at 1:08, until he goes to the V chord?
I'm sort of in agreement with Lastfirstface, but i'm hearing a Bb in here.  At first I thought it was up at the 10th & 12th frets on the 1st & 2nd strings respectively, dropping down to the  10th & 11th frets, while keeping an alternating bass going on the open 4th and 3rd strings.  But now I think it's the 7th and 8th frets of the 1st & 2nd strings respectively, moving up to the 10th & 11th frets and back down again before going into the V chord.

Pittsburgh Blues, I agree with A standard and the C7 shape chord moved up, but think the A on the 6th string at the 5th fret may be there in place of the D at the 5th?.......maybees....

I wasn't aware of this John Jackson tune.  I have his other Arhoolie album, Blues and Country Dance Tunes from Virginia and his Rounder album Step it Up and Go, but hadn't realised he had another Arhoolie album, Thank you!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 15, 2016, 06:47:51 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intends to responds to the John Jackson and Archie Edwards puzzlers has done so, so I'll post the answers.

For John Jackson's "Bearcat Blues":
   * His playing position was G in standard tuning, as Lastfirstface, One-Eyed Ross and Old Man Ned had it--well done!  A sound that would have helped identify G in standard tuning as the position is the sound of the IV chord, which has the characteristic C chord alternation in the bass.  I remember when "John Jackson Vol. 2" came out on Arhoolie I was struck by the "Police Dog Blues" signature lick being used for "Bearcat Blues", as Al noted.  John also used pretty much the same lick for his version of "Rocks and Gravel", which he played in A position, standard tuning.
   * He started his solo at 1:08 sliding into the eighth fret of the second string, then hitting the seventh fret of the first string, moving that little two note shape up three frets to the eleventh fret of the second string and tenth fret of the first string, bending the eleventh fret of the second string and then moving the position back down where he started the phrase, before going to the V7 chord.  This is exactly as Old Man Ned had it--well done!  He may possibly have fretted a full D shape on the top three strings, but since he didn't hit the third string there is no way of knowing for sure.

For Archie Edwards' "Pittsburgh Blues":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * His IV7 chord at 1:14--1:18 was a C7 shape moved up two frets to D7, but putting either the fifth fret of the sixth string in the bass, or possibly the open fifth string.  Once again, this is as Old Man Ned had it--well done!  Al, Pete and Ross all had the C7 shape, too.

Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I'll try to find some more puzzlers soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 20, 2016, 05:23:18 PM
Hi all,
I've got another couple of puzzlers for anyone who is interested.  The first is K. C. Douglas's "Broken Heart".  Douglas was a re-located Mississippian, sort of like Shirley Griffith in that way, though Shirley re-located to Indianapolis and Douglas made his way to California.  Like Shirley, K. C. Douglas held on to some repertoire from his early years, learned from Tommy Johnson and Ishmon Bracey.  Here is his performance of "Broken Heart":

https://youtu.be/7V2_2ij6Vww

INTRO

I laid down last night, you know, I tried to take my rest
I laid down last night, babe, you know, I tried to take my rest
You know, my mind got to ramblin', and I believe I go back West

I'm goin' down to the drug store, I'm gon' buy myself some glue
I'm goin' down to the drug store, I'm gon' buy myself some glue
You know, the gal I'm lovin', she done broke my heart in two

SOLO

Yes, I'm goin' down to New Orleans, just to see Aunt Caroline Dye
Yes, I'm goin' down to New Orleans, just to see Aunt Caroline Dye
You know, she's a two-headed woman, and she never told a lie

Yes, I got somethin' to tell you, I want you to keep it to yourself
I got somethin' to tell you, I want you to keep it to yourself
Don't you tell your mama, your papa and nobody else

The questions on "Broken Heart" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did K. C. Douglas use to play the song?
   * Where does he fret, and what strings does he pick with thumb and fingers at the beginning of each of his verses?

The second puzzler is from Fields Ward, a nephew of the banjo player and fiddler Wade Ward, and the song is his version of "Riley And Spencer".  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/Xeq7Y82iDLk

SOLO

Riley and Spencer's burning down,
Lord, there ain't no liquor in town
Lord, there ain't no liquor in town

What're you gonna do to wet them lips
When this whole darn world goes dry
When this whole darn world goes dry

SOLO

I've been all around this whole wide world
Lord, I've been down in Memphis, Tennessee
Lord, I've been down into Memphis, Tennessee

I've played cards, the king and queen
Shot them dice with old Jesse James
Shot them dice with old Jesse James

SOLO

I can eat more chicken, any gal can fry
Lord, I can tell more low-down lies
Lord, I can tell more low-down lies

Tell more lies than the stars in the skies
Now baby, my time ain't long
Now baby, my time ain't long

SOLO

I never loved but one little gal
Lord, I'm sorry I ever loved her
Lord, I'm sorry I ever loved her

She caused me to weep, she caused me to moan
Lord, she took my liquor from me
Lord, she took my liquor from me

SOLO

You can stomp down them flowers around my grave
But they'll rise and bloom again
But they'll rise and bloom again

Now, I'd pawn my shoes for a bottle of booze
Drink it, I'd lay down and die
Lord, I'd drink it, I'd lay down and die

OUTRO

The questions on "Riley And Spencer" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Fields Ward use to play the song?
   * From where to where does Fields Ward slide at the :41 second mark of his rendition (and elsewhere in the same place in the form of the song)?
   * What chords does Fields Ward play in the course of his rendition?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, April 22.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on April 21, 2016, 06:41:51 AM
Just a minor biographical note: If I'm not mistaken, Wade was actually Fields' uncle, as Fields was Wade's older brother Crockett's son.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 21, 2016, 06:50:11 AM
Thanks for the catch, Pete.  I will make the change.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on April 22, 2016, 08:11:50 AM
Here I am, out on a limb again....be kind when you cut the limb off...

KC Douglas - Broken Heart - I think this is in E standard tuning....

Fields and Ward - Riley and Spencer - G, a bit sharp, and I am going to go with Spanish (although standard works well, too).  I like Spanish because this song has a banjo flavor to it, and you can pick this out in a few minutes....forgot to add that this is a G to D song (at least to my tin ear)...only two chords

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 23, 2016, 03:09:36 AM
I agree E standard for the firs tone, but I'll say A standard for the second one. The slide at .41 I'd say is on the second string from fifth to fourth fret.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on April 23, 2016, 04:44:06 AM
I'm going with E and A.
The 2nd song has the same melody and refrain as BBF Lost Lover, also out of A.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on April 24, 2016, 05:54:51 PM
Wouldn't A std a little flat or Spanish a little sharp voice the same?  (I mean, the relationship to the bass notes to the root chord would be identical....)  I still vote for Spanish [because I am hard headed and it was the first tuning I learned to play in].
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 24, 2016, 09:55:35 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the K. C. Douglas and Fields Ward puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 26, 2016, 11:47:52 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intended to respond to the K. C. Douglas and Fields Ward puzzlers has done so, so I will post the answers. 

For K.C. Douglas's "Broken Heart":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning as all the respondents, One-Eyed Ross, blueshome and Prof Scratchy had it--well done!
   * At the beginning of each verse, K. C. Douglas frets the first string at the seventh fret and the second string with a bent eighth fret, picking them with his fingers while playing his bass on the open fifth string, thus putting a IV note, A, in the bass under the first bar of a blues in E.  I would doubt that Douglas got the idea to do this from him, but Ed Bell started "Mamlish Blues" and "Squabblin' Blues" with the very same configuration of notes at the front end of his verses.  It does seem a sort of unlikely similarity.  I sure like K. C. Douglas's singing!

For Field Wards' "Riley And Spender":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as blueshome and Prof Scratchy had it--well done!  Ross, you're correct that A standard voices out the same as Spanish tuning, but there are places where Fields Ward hits a IV note in the bass, in passing, that make Spanish tuning implausible, since to play that IV note, he would have to fret the fifth string at the fifth fret in the midst of other passagework, or even more implausibly, fret the tenth fret of the sixth string.  In A standard, that IV note lives on the open fourth string, so it is perfectly natural to hit it in the course of changing chords.  Just as a reference, you can hear him hit those IV notes at :08, :21, :46 and several other places in the course of the rendition.
   * Fields Ward's slide at the :41 second mark is from the fifth to the fourth fret of the second string, just as Prof Scratchy had it--well heard!  It gives the song an eerie sound resolving from that fourth fret of the second string down to the second fret, because expressed as notes with A as the key center it means he goes from E, where the slide starts to D# at the fourth fret of the second string, continuing down to C# at the second fret of the second string.  This makes for the sound of the Lydian mode, which has a #IV note, so in this context the first five notes of Fields Ward's A scale would be A-B-C#-D#-E--spooky!  I sure love this song and his performance; the lyrics perfectly capture a kind of toughness that a lot of Mountain Blues have.

Thanks to Ross, Phil and Allan for participating and I hope people enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on May 02, 2016, 12:48:51 PM
This thread is one of my favorite to read. I really miss participating. I hope life slows down a bit soon!!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 02, 2016, 12:50:16 PM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is "You Ain't The Last Man", on which Johnny St. Cyr  accompanied Elzadie Robinson.  Here is their performance:

https://youtu.be/v7jaBdINtJU

INTRO

You say you are leaving, sweet man, good-bye
I won't shed a tear, I won't even sigh
You ain't the last man that the good Lord made

I'm sick and tired of your line of jive
And there's other good men, and they are still alive
You ain't the last man that the good Lord made

There was a time, honey, you could set me wild
But now your loving seems so tame and mild
You ain't the last man that the good Lord made

You had your chance, you couldn't make the grade
Your hateful ways made my love fade
'Cause you ain't the last man that the good Lord made

The questions on "You Ain't The Last Man" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Johnny St. Cyr use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the fill he plays from :18--:22, and how would you describe what is happening chordally there?
   * Where does he fret the three ascending chords from :42--:45, and how would you name the chords?

The second puzzler is Lesley Riddle's version of "Step By Step", for which he is joined by Mike Seeger on autoharp.  Here is their performance:

https://youtu.be/Hcr-qsG3iqk

AUTOHARP INTRO

REFRAIN: Step by step, we're going up to Zion
Step by step, thank God I'm on my way
Step by step, we're going to see King Jesus
Step by step, we're going home someday

If you can, cannot sing like angels
If you can, cannot preach like Paul
You can tell, tell the love of Jesus
You can say, say he died for all

REFRAIN: Step by step, we're going up to Zion
Step by step, on, we on our way
Step by step, we're going to see King Jesus
Step by step, we're going home someday

AUTOHARP SOLO

If you can, cannot give your thousand
You can always give the widow's mite
For the least, least you do for Jesus
Will be pre-, precious in His sight

REFRAIN: Step by step, we're going up to Zion
Step by step, thank God I'm on my way
Step by step, we're going to see King Jesus
Step by step, we're going home someday

AUTOHARP SOLO

Edited 4/8 to pick up correction from frankie

The question on "Step By Step" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lesley Riddle use to play "Step By Step"?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, May 4.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on May 03, 2016, 09:41:11 PM
This thread is one of my favorite to read. I really miss participating. I hope life slows down a bit soon!!

Let me know how that goes.  Play off for Boy's Soccer right now, and a new semi-pro league is starting up and needing a "nouncer dude"....  Hey, it keeps me off the streets.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on May 04, 2016, 12:17:28 PM
I don't have enough time to really sit down with these two, but my impressions are St Cyr playing in F position tuned a little low and Riddle playing in E position tuned about a whole step down.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 05, 2016, 09:25:23 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Johnny St. Cyr and Lesley Riddle puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 05, 2016, 10:43:50 AM
I'm struggling with the Johnny St Cyr, but F works for me too. For the fill he plays from :18--:22 I'm hearing G F# F descending on the first string? played around an F13 shape chord? The same phrase is repeated.  I'm afraid this is as far as I've got so far, will hopefully get a bit more time to puzzle over this.  I do love Johnny St Cyr guitar playing though.  Love his version of Original Jelly Roll Blues.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 05, 2016, 11:22:55 AM
I'm a bit at sea with these. I'm going to risk E for Johnny and D for Lesley. Both too obvious to be remotely right!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on May 05, 2016, 11:42:18 AM
Im going to try and take a stab at these tonight. I'm not off work until 10:00pm Atlantic time but I think I can get a little while to try this one!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on May 05, 2016, 03:01:56 PM
Hi all,

My guestimations:

I'll agree with Professor Scratchy about the keys and positions, E, and D standard.

Quote
* Where did he fret the fill he plays from :18--:22, and how would you describe what is happening chordally there?

I think he's playing an E9 chord, walking the top 9th note down chromatically to the root of the chord (F# - F - E, or 9 - b9 - root). 
I believe he plays an E9 chord as following X-2-X-1-3-2, with his 2nd finger on th 5th string, 1st finger on th 3rd string, little finger on the 2nd string, and 3rd finger on the 1st string.
Then I believe he's removing his 3rd finger from the top string, and flattening his 1st finger to barre both the 3rd and 1st strings, leaving the little finger in place on the 2nd string, and playing only the top three strings; X-(2)-X-1-3-1. Next I believe his lifting his barre 1st finger from the top 1st finger, while still holding the finger's tip in place on the 3rd string, and still holding his little finger on the 2nd string, again playing only the top three strings; X-(2)-X-1-3-0.

When he repeats the chords, I think he might change his bass note from the 2nd fret of the 5th string to the 2nd fret of the 4th string, before repeating the passage.

It's a little tricky to play, and a very clever move. You could play the upper part of the chord upper in the neck (X-X-6-7-9-X), walking down the top note, but that would make accessing the brief bass notes very difficult.

Quote
* Where does he fret the three ascending chords from :42--:45, and how would you name the chords?

Sounds to me like he's going up from X-X-X-1-0-0, to X-X-X-1-3-1, to X-X-X-2-4-2?
I would call the 1st chord the I or tonic, E, and the last one the V or dominant B7. But how to call the chord in between? You could see it as a chromatic chord moving up a half step (Bb7 to B7), but since there is no root Bb, it doesn't really sound like that to me.
I would be inclined to think that the 2nd chord is a partial diminished chord, having the same root as the V chord, and resolving to it (Bdim7 to B7), even if again, no root is played. But maybe that's just how I hear things?

As I said, I think I'll agree with the Professor on Lesley Riddle playing "Step By Step" in D standard. I think I'm hearing the familiar open chord voicings of D, G, and A, and the D chord having a bass alternated with the open 4th string and 2nd fret on the 6th string.

Very interesting song choices again, I love Johnny St. Cyr's nifty playing. Looking forward for the verdict, as always!

Cheers

Pan






Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 08, 2016, 10:28:01 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who had intended to respond to the Johnny St Cyr and Lesley Riddle puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.
For Elzadie Robinson and Johnny St Cyr's performance of "You Ain't The Last Man":
   * Johnny St Cyr's playing position was F in standard tuning, as Lastfirstface and Old Man Ned had it--well done!  A couple of clues that would help identify the playing position as F in standard tuning rather than E in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy and Pan had it:  (1) The chunky "closed" sound of Johnny St Cyr's chordal voicings.  With the exception of the open first string in his V7 chord, C7, he is not hitting open strings at all in his chords.  (2) At around :26-27, Johnny St Cyr plays a closed IV6 chord in a voicing that has ended being a favorite of players working in F position, a Bb6 voiced
X-1-3-3-3-3, probably with the index fretting the first fret of the fifth string and the third or ring finger barring the first four strings at the third fret.  Papa Charlie Jackson used this voicing a lot when playing in F or Bb positions.  (3) From 1:08-1:11, Johnny St Cyr plays an ascending/descending bass run that goes up R-3-5-R then down, 7 6, then up, b7 to 7.  In F, this run is right under the hand going from the first fret of the sixth string to the open fifth string, the third fret of the fifth string to the third fret of the fourth string, down to the second fret of the fourth string and the open fourth string, then walking up to the first and second frets of the fourth string.  In E position, the run is notably more awkward, going from the open sixth string to the fourth fret of the sixth string, the second fret of the fifth string and the second fret of the fourth string, down to the first fret of the fourth string and the fourth fret of the fifth string, then up to the open fourth string, ending on the first fret of the fourth string.  Any piece which has a lot of active bass runs that include the 3 and 6 notes of the scale is much more likely to be played out of F position than E position because of how the positions sit on the three lowest-pitched strings.  Luke Jordan's "Travelling Coon" and Leadbelly's "Roberta" are good examples of the advantages F position gives a player for doing bass runs.
   * For the passage from :18--:22, Johnny St Cyr goes from a I9 chord to a I7b9 chord to a I7 chord, with the 9-b9-1 movement on the first string, exactly where Old Man Ned put it--well done!  Pan also had this sussed out correctly, though a fret lower, out of the E position.  Johnny St Cyr hits the third fret of the fifth string leading into the phrase, and very lightly hits the third fret of the fourth string later in the phrase, but in the main is playing the phrase on the first thee strings, most likely fretting the second fret of the third string with his index finger, the fourth fret of the second string with his little finger, the third fret of the first string with his third finger, and flattening with his index to get the second fret of the first string, smearing it downward to get the first fret of the first string, and replacing it at the second fret of the third string with his second finger when he plays the F7 chord.
   * The passage from :43-:45 was fretted just as Pan had it, but one fret higher, going from 2-1-1 on the first three strings, to 2-4-2, then resolving to 3-5-3.  I think Pan's analysis of the chords was spot on, too, well done, Pan!  I chord to a partial #Idim7 to a rootless V7 chord voiced bVII-III-V, ascending from the third string.

Johnny St Cyr seems to be a musician worth seeking out and studying, in everything he did.  He really was an ace player.

For Lesley Riddle's "Step By Step":
   * His playing position was D position in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy and Pan had it--well done!  He's voicing the third of his I chord on the first string, which could suggest either D or C position, but everything happening in the bass points to D position rather than C position.

Judging by Lesley Riddle's playing on his rediscovery album and by Maybelle Carter's playing on her numerous recordings, I believe that the influence of his playing on hers has been over-stated by some music historians.  There are a couple of pieces Maybelle played where the influence seems pretty clear, but in the bulk of her playing it seems like her musical style and mode of expression was formed independent of Lesley Riddle's influence.

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzlers, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.

All best,
Johnm     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 08, 2016, 01:23:40 PM
Hi all,
I was trying to transcribe the lyrics to Lesley Riddle's "Step By Step", and am stuck on the bent bracketed passage in the last verse.  I'd very much appreciate some help with it.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on May 08, 2016, 02:26:52 PM
I think you have it right as "widow's might" John. While it's not a phrase I'm personally familiar with, it does seem to show up in the speech of people of faith and seems to mean "give all you can despite your shortcomings."
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on May 08, 2016, 02:52:43 PM
Duh. It's widow's MITE - a coin....  specifically two coins (mites).
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 08, 2016, 03:56:13 PM
Thanks, Frank!  That homonym solution occurred to me just a little while ago too.  I will make the change.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on May 09, 2016, 06:10:54 AM
Thanks for the analysis, John!  Much appreciated, as always.

I hadn't fully realized what an ace guitar player Johnny St. Cyr was, as I'd always considered him more of a jazz ensemble banjo player.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on May 09, 2016, 08:28:12 AM
Duh. It's widow's MITE - a coin....  specifically two coins (mites).

This took me back decades to Sunday school.... Mark 12:41-44, "And He sat down over against the treasury, and beheld how the multitude cast money into the treasury; and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a poor widow, and she cast in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, This poor widow cast in more than all they are casting into the treasury: for they did cast in of their superfluity; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living."
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on May 09, 2016, 08:37:45 AM
I hadn't fully realized what an ace guitar player Johnny St. Cyr was, as I'd always considered him more of a jazz ensemble banjo player.

He mostly played six-string guitar banjo even in jazz groups. Definitely an ace player!
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 11, 2016, 04:27:34 PM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is J B Lenoir's version of "If I Get Lucky", and thanks to Zohar Bareket for the suggestion of this song.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/fBG2nf3Fe-Q

If I get lucky, and just make my train fare home
If I ever get luck', and make my train fare home
I b'lieve I will leave this town, and I ain't coming back no more

My Mother told me, "J B, you better watch your step."
My Mother sat down and told me, "J B, you better watch your step.
One day you will fall down, and you gon' need somebody's help."

SOLO

You know, I feel that my neck is hangin' from a tree
Sometime I sits down, have this feeling, my neck is hangin' from a tree
You know, the devil killed my Father, Lord, don't let the devil kill poor me

The questions on "If I Get Lucky" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did J B Lenoir use to play the song?
   * Where did J B fret the opening of his solo, from 1:36--1:37?
   
The second puzzler is Baby Tate's "See what You Done Done".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/Krn9yEMmh_o

Hey, hey, babe, what you tryin' to do?
I said, hey, hey, babe, what you tryin' to do?
Gone and made me love you, but that's all right for you

You know, my gal wears a hat
Sometimes she wears a tam
She got great big legs and a shape like Georgia ham

Now, if you lose your money
Please don't lose your mind
If you lose your woman, please don't fool with mine

I said, hey, hey, see what you done done
I said, hey, hey, see what you done done
You done made me love you and now your man done come

Well, I dreamed last night
That the woman I love was dead
But when I woke up, baby, I was just talkin' all out my head

But what you want with a woman
And she can't beg, borrow or steal?
If you get in trouble, she can't bring you a decent meal

And I feel like snappin'
My pistol in your face
I'm gonna let the lonesome graveyard be your restin' place

I said, hey, hey, see what you done done
I said, hey, hey, see what you done done
You done made me love you and now your man done come

The questions on "See What You Done Done" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Baby Tate use to play the song?
   * What is the form which Baby Tate uses for the opening refrain?  What form does he use for the two verses that follow the opening refrain?
   * Where does Baby Tate fret the downward "oozing" sound at 1:03, and how does he get that effect?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM you time on Friday, May 13.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on May 13, 2016, 09:51:34 PM
JB Lenoir is playing If I Get Lucky out of Vestapol tuning, tuned to between D and Eb.
The start of the solo is fretted on the 4th string. JB slides up from the 2nd fret to the 4th fret, then plays individual notes on the 5th fret, 4th fret and then strikes a note while holding 7th fret of the same string, doing a quick pulloff from 7th to 6th and then again striking the note at the 7th fret.

Baby Tate's See What You Done Done
Sounds like key of E, standard tuning. The opening refrain is a 12 bar form, and the next two verses are 8 bar blues form.
The "oozing sound" is fretted at the 4th fret, 3rd string, and he slides that note down two frets, from a B note to an A note.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 14, 2016, 03:59:09 AM
I'm  going to day Drop D for the JB Lenoir one. At the start of the solo he could be playing 4/4>5>4>5>sl7.

The Baby Tate one sounds to be in E standard.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 15, 2016, 08:42:33 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the J B Lenoir and Baby Tate puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on May 15, 2016, 09:14:41 AM
I'm with the Prof.

Drop D and E standard.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MartyW on May 17, 2016, 05:39:42 AM
Hi All, 

My first post.  I believe that 'If I get lucky' is on drop-D (pitched somewhere between D and Eb) and for 'See what you done done' is in E standard tuning.

Cheers,

Marty
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Zoharbareket on May 18, 2016, 12:20:19 PM
Thanks for putting this one up John!
The tune has a pretty cool feel about it and I've never heard of JB Lenoir!

I'll go with what the Prof said...

Z
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 18, 2016, 01:01:04 PM
I love the Baby Tate track.  Agree with E standard.  The form of the 2 verse following the opening refrain sounds like the 'Crow Jane' form.  And the lovely 'oozing' sound at 1:03, to me sounds like he's bending the 3rd string at the 3rd fret.  Though 'bending' may be an understatement as he seems to be packing it with a big punch.

J B Lenoir, I'm in agreement with Prof Scratchy and other folks with Dropped D and what Prof said for the opening of his solo, from 1:36--1:37 works for me too.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on May 18, 2016, 02:29:15 PM
I seem to be in the distinct minority guessing Vestapol tuning for JB Lenoir. I agree it could be done in Drop D, and is probably easier that way. I haven't tried playing it that way. But thinking about it in retrospect, the way he starts his solo as I heard it, I thought he was sliding an already fretted note upward. If drop-D, he would have to start that phrase on an open string. The slide wouldn't sound the same.
Then again, I'm likely completely off base.  ::)

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 18, 2016, 05:21:52 PM
Hi all,
Thanks to all who participated, and welcome to MartyW to Weenie Campbell, and congratulations on his first post!  I'm glad I waited this long to respond, with some late posting coming in today.  It's always fun when more folks participate.  I guess I'll post the answers now.

For JB Lenoir's "If I Get Lucky":
   * His playing position was D position in dropped-D tuning, as a number of you had it.  Well done!
   * For the opening of his solo, on + 4 + of the twelfth bar of the pass preceding the solo, he goes from the fourth fret of the fourth string  on the + of beat 3, and on beat four plays a triplet, the last eighth note of which is divided into two sixteenth notes, hitting the open third string on beat four, returning to the fourth fret of the fourth string for the middle note of the triplet, and then sliding from the second fret of the third string down to the first fret of the third string for the two sixteenth notes that fill out the triplet, resolving back up to the second fret of the third string on the downbeat of the form.  The first two notes of this passage give away the dropped-D tuning, as you can hear him going from the fretted fourth fret of the fourth string to the open third string (G).  In Vestapol, you would have to fret that G note and it wouldn't have the tone of an open string.  There are other giveaways of dropped-D tuning over the course of the tune in addition to this one.
  J B Lenoir really seemed to like dropped-D tuning, and employed it a lot.  He really took advantage of the bass runs that it makes available, too.

For Baby Tate's "See What You Done Done":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning as every responder had it--well done!
   * His opening refrain has a 12-bar form, and the next two verses have 8-bar forms, just as Dave had it--well done!
   * Baby Tate got his "oozing" sound at 1:03 and elsewhere in his rendition by hitting the second fret of his third string, already bent and then releasing the bend.  It is a wonderfully expressive technique, and it requires some real finesse to do as smoothly as he did it on this song, as well as some real strength in the left hand.  You can tell by the timbre of the "bend and release" that he had an unwound third string on his guitar, the way the move sang and had such a vocal quality.

Thanks again to all who participated, and I'll try to find some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 25, 2016, 08:05:36 PM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for you.  The first is from Brownsville Son Bonds and it is his song "80 Highway Blues".  He is joined by another guitarist for this track, and I don't know who it is--Charlie Pickett?  Here is the song:

https://youtu.be/Z1893ZBkXaE

INTRO

Sittin' down here, thinkin', yes, babe, I believe I'd better go
Sittin' down here, thinkin', yes, babe, I believe I had better go
You know, I believe I'll go down, that long, long old dusty road

Now, that 80 Highway, is the longest highway that I know
Now, that 80 Highway, is the longest highway that I know
Runnin' all the way from 'Frisco, Texas, 'way 'cross Atlantic on that other water coast

The church bell begin to tone, yes, some other good gambler's gone
The church bell begin to tone, yes, some other good gambler's gone
You know, I wouldn't hate it so bad, but that 80 Highway is so long

You women fuss and argue with your good man, when you know you don't do right yourself
You women fuss and argue with your good man, baby, when you know you don't do right yourself
You know, I'm gonna look for you at night, 'way down on 80 Highway with someone else

Yes, and if you get in trouble, call down to Clubhouse 45
Yes, if you get in trouble, call down to Clubhouse 45
Baby, and now you just open up my chifferobe, and you'll see where my dollar lies

The questions on "80 Highway Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning are the two guitarists playing out of on the song?
   * Where does the guitarist focusing on the treble fret the run that he plays from :30--:32?

The second song is "War Blues", by Pernell Charity, from his Trix album, "The Virginian".  The only clip I could find of the song on youtube is one which has the entire album, so to hear "War Blues", take the video up to 2:32, which is the point at which "War Blues" starts.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/e8kEh6NUQQc

SOLO

When I get my call, boy, here's what I'm gon' do
I'm gonna get me a black cat bone, 'way down in my shoe
REFRAIN: I've got to go to the war
If I have bad luck, I won't be back at all

Don't mind bein' drafted, don't mind bein' in line
Ain't but the one thing killin' me, leavin' these girls be--
REFRAIN: I've got to go to the war
If I have bad luck, I won't be back at all

SOLO

When I get my card, boys, Here's what I'm gonna do
I"m gonna get me a black cat bone, way down in my shoe
REFRAIN: I've got to go to the war
If I have bad luck, I won't be back at all

Don't mind bein' drafted, don't mind bein' in line
Ain't but the one thing killin' me, leavin' these girls be--
REFRAIN: I've got to go, oh yeah
If I have bad luck, I won't be back at all

SOLO

REFRAIN: I've got to go, oh yeah
If I have bad luck, I won't be back at all

SOLO

The questions on "War Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Pernell Charity use to play the song?
   * Where does he fret the position at which he starts each verse's accompaniment?
   * Where does he fret the alternating bass he plays under his IV chord at 3:03--3:04 and elsewhere in the course of his rendition?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on the morning of Friday, May 27.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on May 26, 2016, 02:02:17 AM
Second guitar on 80 Highway Blues is John Estes. Source B&GR.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 26, 2016, 07:56:20 AM
Thanks for that information, Al.  It sure makes sense, both in terms of the sound and otherwise.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 28, 2016, 03:50:33 AM
The questions on "80 Highway Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning are the two guitarists playing out of on the song? - I think one guitar is in Spanish and the other in G standard. The guitarist focussing on the treble runs is in G Standard.
   * Where does the guitarist focusing on the treble fret the run that he plays from :30--:32? - I'll say 1/3>0;2/3>2>1; 3/3>0

The questions on "War Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Pernell Charity use to play the song? - D standard?
   * Where does he fret the position at which he starts each verse's accompaniment? - From 1st position D chord slide to double stop abbreviated second position D chord at 1/5; 2/7. Then: 2/6>sl7; 1/5>7; 2/6b; 2/2.
   * Where does he fret the alternating bass he plays under his IV chord at 3:03--3:04 and elsewhere in the course of his rendition? I think he's fingering a G7 chord at 32300x and alternating the sixth and fourth strings.

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on May 29, 2016, 06:25:57 AM
80 highway- 1st guitar in E standard capoed up, 2nd standard

Pernell - I'm with the Professor - D standard

Lovely album BTW.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 29, 2016, 02:19:00 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers on the Brownsville Son Bonds and Pernell Charity puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 01, 2016, 12:08:11 PM
Hi all,
Well, it appears that the Brownsville Son Bonds and Pernell Charity puzzlers are not generating many responses, so I'll post the answers.

For "Highway 80 Blues":
   * Both Son Bonds and Sleepy John Estes, who is seconding him, are playing out of G position in standard tuning.  They are right on top of each other, in the tradition of some of the Little Buddy Doyle duets or those of Guitar Slim and Jelly Belly.  The best way to tell their playing position by sound is the bass runs that are employed and the V7 chord played at the end of the form, which is a C7 shape moved up two frets and strummed so that the open first string, the 9 of that chord, can be heard on top.
   * The run that Son Bonds plays from :30--:32 starts on beat two of the seventh bar of the form.  On that beat he plays a triplet, hitting the sixth fret of the first string on all three notes.  On beat three of that bar, he plays another triplet, going from the third fret of the first string to the first fret of the first string, ending up at the third fret of the second string.  On beat four, he plays one more triplet, going from the second fret of the second string to the first fret of the second string and finishing on the third fret of the third string.  On 1 + of the eight bar, he goes from the open third string to the third fret of the first string, and on 2 + he goes from the open first string back to the third fret of the first string.  It's a great run!

When I hear duets like this one or some of the Little Buddy Doyle/Willie Tango ones, I'm reminded that it is definitely possible to be a bit too fastidious about leaving space for the other player, being careful to play in different registers, taking turns on fills, and all of the other values supposedly characteristic of sensitive musicians and good listeners.  There can be an excitement in both players just blasting and assuming things will work themselves out;  that certainly seems to have been the case here.

For Pernell Charity's "War Blues":
   * His playing position was D position in standard tuning, as both Prof Scratchy and blueshome had it--well done, guys!
   * Pernell Charity starts his accompaniment to each verse by fret the sixth fret of the second string with a bit of a bend and going up to the fifth fret of the first string, then taking that position down the neck, probably intact, to get the third fret of the second string.  He then moves the position back up the neck where he started, goes from the sixth fret second string to the fifth fret first string and then up to the seventh fret of the first string.
   * The bass that Pernell Charity alternated under his IV7 is just as Prof Scratchy had it, a G7 chord alternating between the third fret of the sixth and fourth strings, with the whole chord voiced 3-2-3-0-0-1.

As Phil noted, the Pernell Charity album is really a winner, if you can lay your hands on it.  He was an excellent and versatile guitarist and his singing grows on you.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy and blueshome for their participation.  I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  If you're a person who has been reading this thread but not participating, I'd like to encourage you to join in and post your answers to the puzzlers.  I suppose that if you don't post an answer you're never wrong, but you're not right either, and more importantly, participating and posting your best assessments as to the answers to the puzzlers makes you listen to the music harder than you do when you have nothing at stake.  And that deeper listening builds ear identification skills over time.  Give it a try--the stakes are not high and nobody's keeping score.

All best,
Johnm     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 06, 2016, 03:18:11 PM
Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested, and both of them are from Luther Huff, with an assist from his brother, Percy.  The first is "Dirty Disposition", and here is Luther's performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/r6LxAGRixvU

I know you didn't want me when I first laid 'cross your bed
Drank moonshine whiskey, woman, talkin' all out your head
REFRAIN: You've got a dirty disposition, I can't stand the way you do
Say, you got a dirty disposition, woman, I just can't stand the way you do

Don't want you, woman, give me your right hand
I'll go to my woman, you can get you 'nother man
REFRAIN: 'Cause you've got a dirty disposition, I can't stand the way you do
Say, you got a dirty disposition, I declare I can't stand the way you do

The cats was growlin', the rats was on the run
I better move along 'cause my baby's got a gun
REFRAIN: She got a dirty disposition, I can't stand the way she do
Now, you got a dirty disposition, woman, I declare I can't stand the way you do

Woke up this mornin' and I went 'round the house
Seed a lot of tracks and I knowed it wasn't no mouse
REFRAIN: You got a dirty disposition, I can't stand the way you do
Say now, you goat a dirty disposition, woman, I declare I can't stand the way you do

SOLO (Spoken: One time now)

The questions on "Dirty Disposition" are:
   * What playing position/tuning is being used for the acoustic guitar on the track?
   * Where is the descending signature lick which is played at :10--:12 and again at :20--:22 fretted, and how would you name the notes of the lick numerically, in the scale?

The second puzzler is Luther Huff's "Rosalee".  Man, do I love this song and performance!  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/uMDmrxvs348

INTRO

REFRAIN: Now, Rosalee, who can your lover be?
Say now, reason I aks you, I want to know if there's any chance for me

Now look here, Rosalee, your shape is fine
That's why people beg you, Rosalee, to please be mine
REFRAIN: Now, Rosalee, who can your lover be?
Well, that's why I aks you, I want to know if there's any chance for me

Now, Rosalee, I know your number, fifty forty-four
If you just say a word, Rosalee, I'll just walk up on the third floor
REFRAIN: Now, Rosalee, who can your lover be?
Say now, reason I aks you, I want to know if there's any chance for me

One and one is two, Rosalee, two and two is four
If you just say the word, Rosalee, I would never let you go
REFRAIN: Now, Rosalee, who can your lover be?
Say now, reason I aks you, I want to know if there's any chance for me

OUTRO

The questions on "Rosalee" are:
   * What playing position/tuning do the two guitarists on the song employ (it's the same position for both guitarists)?
   * How did Luther and Percy Huff get to be so cool?

Please use only your ears and your musical instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, June 8.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy these songs
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jpeters609 on June 07, 2016, 06:47:19 AM
Love these guys. And here's a partial answer to what made Luther and Percy so cool: they both listened to Tommy Johnson, Charlie McCoy (both clear influences), Ishmon Bracey, and Slim Duckett at picnics and on the streets of Jackson, Mississippi, in the 1940's (all according to interviews with Percy by Gayle Dean Wardlow). Also, Luther had lived in Detroit (my hometown) immediately before these sessions and moved back to Detroit soon afterward. This, of course, adds to his cool factor. Says me. :)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 08, 2016, 03:38:15 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Luther and Percy Huff cuts, "Dirty Disposition" and "Rosalee"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on June 08, 2016, 04:45:40 PM
I'm going to go with G standard on Dirty Disposition. It sounds like it could be Spanish; it's hard to hear the V chord but it sounds like a regular D to me, and also at the very end he plays a C chord with the G on top, which clinches it for me. I'm going to skip transcribing the lick because I don't have a guitar with me at the moment.

For Rosalee, I believe they're playing out of D position in standard tuning.

And why are they so cool? I don't know, but it's some great music!
Chris

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on June 08, 2016, 06:17:48 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Luther and Percy Huff cuts, "Dirty Disposition" and "Rosalee"?  Come one, come all!
My ears sometimes play tricks on me, but I'm trying this in an attempt to get better at hearing what's going on.

I think Dirty Disposition is in G position/standard tuning. I really don't know much about naming notes & numbers, but for the descending riff I anchored my thumb on the G bass note and with my other fingers played:
1st string 3rd fret
1st string 2nd fret
1st string 1st fret
2nd string 3rd fret
2nd string 1st fret
3rd string 3rd fret (little bend?)

And the 2nd time at (:22) I think there's an additional open 2nd string added after the descending riff.

Rosalee sounds like standard tuning D position. I can hear the Tommy Johnson influence and was waiting for the Dropped D bass note that never came.
One thing that makes these guys cool is the quick endings to their songs!
"I wanna know if there's any chance for me"
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on June 08, 2016, 07:21:56 PM
I'll add a "me, too" to G standard on Dirty Disposition.  Didn't get a chance to work on Rosalee.  This life stuff is interfering with my guitar playing.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 09, 2016, 01:11:21 AM
For Dirty Disposition I slithered between G standard and Spanish, so to steal defeat from the jaws of victory I'll say Spanish. For the second one D standard. How could anyone called Luther Huff not be cool?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on June 09, 2016, 09:33:15 AM
Hi all,

I'm going to vote for G standard for "Dirty disposition". It sounds like he's switching from the 1st position G shape to an G7, and maybe even a G6 (open top E string), and a C shape to a C7 for the IV chord, and the V chord also sounds to me like a regular 1st position D shape in standard tuning.

For the run, I hear it going from the 1st string 3rd fret, to the 2nd fret; then down chromatically from the 2nd string 3rd fret to the 2nd fret and to the 1st fret; then 3rd string 3rd fret down to the open 3rd string.
If I'm not mistaken, scale wise the notes would be: root - Maj7 - 5 - b5 - 4 - b3 - root.
This is almost like a run down from the blues scale, except that instead of the usual b7 of the blues scale (1st string 1st fret ), he is playing a Major 7th, which is a little surprising in this context, and gives a nice bite to the lick, IMO.

For Rosalee, I too vote for D standard. As has been said, the low root of dropped D doesn't seem to be played, and for the IV chord, I think the root on the 6th string can be heard on some runs, which would be more awkward in dropped D than in standard tuning, since it would be on the 5th fret, instead of the usual 3rd fret.

Looking forward to hear John's analysis.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 09, 2016, 12:15:03 PM
In agreement with  G standard and D standard for "Dirty Disposition" and "Rosalee" respectively.  I think Pan has the run from 10:12 in "Dirty Disposition", numerically (?) the notes are I VII V bV IV bIII I.

For the last question, I guess Luther & Percy Huff were born cool, stayed cool and died cool.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on June 09, 2016, 01:52:13 PM
I'm with the Prof - Spanish and D
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 11, 2016, 08:00:30 AM
Hi all,
I suspect all of the responses are in on Luther and Percy Huff's "Dirty Disposition" and "Rosalee", so I'll post the answers. 

For "Dirty Disposition":
   * The playing position/tuning for the acoustic guitar on the track was G position in standard tuning, as a number of you had it.  As Pan noted, the guitarist plays a regular D chord in standard tuning for his V chord, and as Chris noted, the real give-away is ending the song on a IV chord which is clearly a C chord voiced with its root in the bass, an implausible sound if playing in Spanish, apart from barring at the fifth fret, which would produce an altogether different sound.
   * The descending run from :10--:12 was fretted exactly as Pan had it, third fret to second fret on the first string, then third to second to first fret on the second string, then third fret of the third string to the open third string.  In the version from :20--:22, Luther ends the lick on the open second string, as Forgetful Jones pointed out.  The notes of the run, named as scale degrees, are also exactly as Pan had them: I-Maj7-5-b5-4-b3-1.  Well done, Pan!  I agree that the major 7 note is a real keeper--it gives the run a much more distinctive sound than hitting the b7 would have given the run.  You do run into major 7 notes in blues runs from time to time.  Bo Carter used one in the intro to "My Baby".  And that mayor 7 note sounds great against the IV chord.

For "Rosalee":
   * The playing position/tuning for both Luther and Percy Huff was D position in standard tuning.  Everyone who responded had that right--well done!
   * The second question was rhetorical, as I guess you all knew.  For me, they were so cool because they played and sang so well.  Great time, great material, so well played and sung, they had it all.  I wish they had recorded fifty or sixty or more sides like some of the early players.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the tunes.  I'll look for some more to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 11, 2016, 05:32:04 PM
Miller's Breakdown, Part 2

Since the initial Miller's Breakdown of links to the various songs in the "What Is This Musician Doing?" thread is full, this post will serve as a continuation of the list of links, and will be brought up to date as new songs are added to the thread.

176. Dirty Disposition--Luther Huff  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98032#msg98032)
177. Rosalee--Luther Huff  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98032#msg98032)
178. Baby Please Don't Go Back To New Orleans--Leroy Dallas  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98165#msg98165)
179. Traveling Man Blues--Mott Willis  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98165#msg98165)
180. Back Door Stranger--Brownie McGhee  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98294#msg98294)
181. Market Street Rag--Kid Prince Moore  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98294#msg98294)
182. Just A Note--Ralph Willis  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98391#msg98391)
183. Little Soldier Boy--Dr. Ross  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98391#msg98391)
184. Staggering Blues--Rosie Mae Moore  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98456#msg98456)
185. Heaven In My View--Tallahassee Tight  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98456#msg98456)
186. Caught Me Wrong Again--Memphis Minnie  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98456#msg98456)
187. Trinity River Blues--T-Bone Walker  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98513#msg98513)
188. You Can't Lose-a Me, Charlie--Leadbelly  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98513#msg98513)
189. Evil Blues--Mance Lipscomb  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98513#msg98513)
190. Dark and Stormy Night--Tampa Red  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98635#msg98635)
191. 'Bama Bound--Brooks Berry and Scrapper Blackwell  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98635#msg98635)
192. You Got A Good Thing Now--K. C. Douglas  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98635#msg98635)
193. O, The Blood Done Signed My Name--Cat Iron  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98735#msg98735)
194. Blues Style--"Red" Willie Smith  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98735#msg98735)
195. Western Rider Blues--Lawyer "Soldier Boy" Houston  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98857#msg98857)
196. Lost Woman Blues--Rattlesnake Cooper  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98857#msg98857)
197. Mama Mama Blues--Ralph Willis  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98905#msg98905)
198. Complaint To Make--Roosevelt Antrim  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98905#msg98905)
199. Swing Low, Sweet Chariot--Levester "Big Lucky" Carter  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98905#msg98905)
200. Broken Hearted Blues--Jessie Mae Hemphill  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99047#msg99047)
201. Out On Santa Fe Blues--Arthur Pettis  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99047#msg99047)
202. Shreveport Blues--David "Pete" McKinley  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99047#msg99047)
203. Away Down On The Alley Blues--Lonnie Johnson  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99137#msg99137)
204. Ardelle Blues--David "Pete" McKinley  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99137#msg99137)
205. Tall Skinny Mama Blues--Manny Nichols  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99137#msg99137)
206. Race Horse Blues--Elijah Jones & his Guitar  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99179#msg99179)
207. The Chicken Song--Waynell Jones  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99179#msg99179)
208. Stormin' and Rainin'--Country Jim Bledsoe  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99179#msg99179)
209. Down To The River--Joe Callicott  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99216#msg99216)
210. Lonesome Katy Blues--Joe Callicott  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99216#msg99216)
211. River Blues--Joe Callicott  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99216#msg99216)
212. Black Snake Blues--Tallahassee Tight  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99270#msg99270)
213. No Special Woman--Short Stuff Macon  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99270#msg99270)
214. Worried Blues--Tom Bell  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99270#msg99270)
215. T. P. Railer--Black Diamond  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99352#msg99352)
216. Fuzzy Rag--Riley Puckett  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99352#msg99352)
217. Long Tall Woman--Arthur Weston  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99352#msg99352)
218. Santa Field Blues--Willie Ford  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99441#msg99441)
219. Cool Water Blues--John Dudley  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99441#msg99441)
220. Try Me Man Blues--Sonny Scott  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99441#msg99441)
221. 38 Pistol Blues--Yank Rachell  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99518#msg99518)
222. Remove This Rope--J B Lenoir  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99518#msg99518)
223. Overall Blues--Walter Roland  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99518#msg99518)
224. Lighthouse Blues--Roger "Burn Down" Garnett  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99647#msg99647)
225. Wild Cat's Ball--Eddie Edinborough and His New Orleans Wild Cats  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99647#msg99647)
226. Hole In The Wall--L. C. Williams  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99647#msg99647)
227. Mistreating Mama--Big Bill Broonzy  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99715#msg99715)
228. I Can't Be Satisfied--Big Bill Broonzy  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99715#msg99715)
229. Starvation Blues--Big Bill Broonzy  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99715#msg99715)
230. I Must See Jesus--Snooks Eaglin  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99836#msg99836)
231. Goin' Away To Leave You--Willie Moore  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99836#msg99836)
232. Lost My Money In Jim Kinnane's--Joe Callicott  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99836#msg99836)
233. Long Time Ago Blues--Peetie Wheatstraw  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100001#msg100001)
234. Numbered Days--Charley Bradix  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100001#msg100001)
235. Three Little Kittens Rag--Willie Trice  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100001#msg100001)
236. Stuttgart, Arkansas--Walter Miller  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100319#msg100319)
237. Ain't That News?--Brother Son Bonds  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100319#msg100319)
238. Down South Blues--Hacksaw Harney  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100319#msg100319)
239. Ocean Wide Blues--Georgia Slim  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100542#msg100542)
240. Trouble Done Bore Me Down--Barbecue Bob  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100542#msg100542)
241. Bleeding Heart Blues--J. T. Smith  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100542#msg100542)
242. There Is No Justice--Lonnie Johnson  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100631#msg100631)
243. Overall Cheater Blues--Washboard Walter & John Byrd  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100631#msg100631)
244. Three Cent Stamp Blues--Sylvester Cotton  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100631#msg100631)
245. Hurry And Bring It Back Home--Barbecue Bob  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100768#msg100768)
246. Keep Your Man Out Of Birmingham--William Harris  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100768#msg100768)
247. Kitchen Range Blues--William Harris  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100768#msg100768)
248. Shackles Around My Body--David Wylie  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100895#msg100895)
249. Baby, You're Gonna Change Your Mind--David Wylie  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100895#msg100895)
250. Katy Mae--Robert Curtis Smith  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100895#msg100895)
251. Lily Kimball Blues--Sam Townsend  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100974#msg100974)
252. Sweet Petunia--Curley Weaver  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100974#msg100974)
253. Black Cat Trail--Carolina Slim  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100974#msg100974)
254. I'm Going Home--Hammie Nixon & Sleepy John Estes  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101051#msg101051)
255. Do It Right--Pigmeat Pete & Catjuice Charlie  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101051#msg101051)
256. Back Door Blues--Bo Jones  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101051#msg101051)
257. Don't Forget Me, Baby--Frankie Lee Sims  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101151#msg101151)
258. Single Man Blues--Frankie Lee Sims  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101151#msg101151)
259. January 11, 1949 Blues--Luther Stoneham  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101151#msg101151)
260. Lonesome Home Blues--Memphis Willie B.  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101381#msg101381)
261. No Good Woman Blues--Jesse Thomas  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101381#msg101381)
262. You Been Cheating Me--Jaydee Short  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101381#msg101381)
263. Chicago Blues--Andrew Thomas  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101570#msg101570)
264. Gonna Move To California--Jesse Thomas  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101570#msg101570)
265. She Have Broken My Heart--Shortstuff Macon  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101570#msg101570)
266. Train Blues--Leon Strickland  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101826#msg101826)
267. .44 Blues--Eugene Powell  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101826#msg101826)
268. Big House Blues--Pink Anderson  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg101826#msg101826)
269. Graveyard Blues--John Lee Hooker  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg102087#msg102087)
270. Mississippi Road--J B Lenoir  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg102087#msg102087)
271. Highway 61 Blues--Sampson Pittman  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg102087#msg102087)
272. Keep On Groaning--Jack Owens  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg102239#msg102239)
273. Chimney Hill Breakdown--Frank Hovington  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg102239#msg102239)
274. Freight Train Blues--Bill Jackson  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg102239#msg102239)
275. Hug Me Baby--Lawyer "Soldier Boy" Houston  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg102419#msg102419)
276. Vacation Blues--Johnny Howard  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg102419#msg102419)
277. Girl Dressed In Green--John Tinsley  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg102419#msg102419)
278. Rocky Mountain--Andrew Dunham  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg102687#msg102687)
279. Country Farm Blues--William Stewart  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg102782#msg102782)
280. Ninety-Nine Years And One Dark Day--Jesse Fuller  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg102841#msg102841)
281. Worried Blues--Hot Rod Happy  (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg102953#msg102953)
282. Poor Kennedy--Avery Brady  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg103086#msg103086)
283. Broke Down Engine--Tony Bryant  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg103249#msg103249)
284. Coal Black Mare--Lovey Williams  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg103377#msg103377)
285. Pony Blues--Johnny Young  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg103476#msg103476)
286. I Know I Done You Wrong--Charles Caldwell  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg103573#msg103573)
287. Loping Blues--Lincoln Jackson  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg103651#msg103651)
288. Jay Bird--Scott Dunbar  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg103765#msg103765)
289. You Don't Mean Me No Good--Little Hat Jones  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg103908#msg103908)
290. Jake Bottle Blues--Lemuel Turner  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg104034#msg104034)
291. Worry Blues--Tom Dickson  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg104155#msg104155)
292. Lonesome Moon Blues--Ranie Burnette  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg104239#msg104239)
293. The Army Blues--Honeyboy Edwards  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg104333#msg104333)
294. Shake 'Em On Down--Wade Walton  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg104438#msg104438)
295. Say What You Mean--Larry Johnson  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg104533#msg104533)
296. Looking For My Woman--George Henry Bussey  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg104649#msg104649)
297. Calvary--Robert Curtis Smith  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg104773#msg104773)
298. Peach Tree Blues--Charley Sangster  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg104872#msg104872)
299. Blues For Mattie Mae--Lattie Murrell  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg105009#msg105009)
300. Bad Night Blues--Mott Willis  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg105181#msg105181)
301. Worried Life Blues--John Henry Barbee  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg105339#msg105339)
302. Down In Mississippi--J B Lenoir  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg105409#msg105409)
303. Slim's Stomp--John Lee Hooker  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg105514#msg105514)
304. I'll Get By Somehow--Carolina Slim  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg105630#msg105630)
305. Corn Whiskey Blues--J. T. Smith  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg105778#msg105778)
306. Silicosis Is Killin' Me--Josh White  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg105929#msg105929)
307. Shining Moon--Lightnin' Hopkins  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg106007#msg106007)
308. Electricity--Jimmy Murphy  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg106118#msg106118)
309. Hard Pill To Swallow--Lonzie Thomas  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg106241#msg106241)
310. I Got Something To Tell You--Charles Caldwell  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg106331#msg106331)
311. Shine On--Willie Trice  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg106457#msg106457)
312. Sweetest Apple On The Tree--Brooks Berry  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg106756#msg106756)
313. Santa Fe Blues--Smith Casey  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg106867#msg106867)
314. In The Army Since 1941--Lawyer "Soldier Boy" Houston,  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg107026#msg107026)
315. Blues For Mattie Mae--Lattie Murrell  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg107171#msg107171)
316. Shake It Daddy--Mae Glover/John Byrd  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg107377#msg107377)
317. Worrying Blues--Carolina Slim  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg107519#msg107519)
318. Maypole March--Babe Stovall  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg107785#msg107785)
319. Boll Weevil--Babe Stovall  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg107785#msg107785)
320. Remember Me--Charles Caldwell  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg108061#msg108061)
321. Born Dead--J B Lenoir  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg108061#msg108061)
322. Duckin' And Dodgin'--Hogman Maxey  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg108219#msg108219)
323. Electric Chair Blues--Guitar Welch  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg108219#msg108219)
324. You're Gonna Weep And Moan--David Wylie  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg108338#msg108338)
325. Baby, You Don't Mean Me No Good--David Wylie  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg108338#msg108338)
326. She's Your Cook, But She Burns My Bread Sometimes--Bo Carter  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg108708#msg108708)
327. Loveless Love--Bo Carter  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg108708#msg108708)
328. Big Fat Mama--Wade Walton  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg108778#msg108778)
329. Everybody's Blues--Archie Edwards  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg108778#msg108778)
330. Woke Up One Morning--Dennis McMillon  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg109064#msg109064)
331. Love Blues--Cecil Barfield  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg109064#msg109064)
332. Swing, Swing--Arzo Youngblood  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg109281#msg109281)
333. Two Trains Running--Maxwell Street Jimmy Davis  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg109281#msg109281)
334. Black Horse Blues--Sonny Scott  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg109518#msg109518)
335. Highway No. 2 Blues--Sonny Scott  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg109518#msg109518)
336. Niagara Falls Blues--Kid Cole  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg109715#msg109715)
337. Separatin' Blues--Georgia Slim  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg109715#msg109715)
338. I'm Going To Cincinnati--Walter Coleman  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg109902#msg109902)
339. Pack Up Her Trunk Blues--Tommie Bradley  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg109902#msg109902)
339. Ain't Goin' To Be Your Low-Down Dog--Ollie Rupert  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg110128#msg110128)
340. Black Snake Blues--Tallahassee Tight  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg110128#msg110128)
341.  Dirty Deal Blues--Curley Weaver  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg110329#msg110329)
342. Worried Blues--Ralph Willis  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg110329#msg110329)
343. Chickasaw Train Blues--Memphis Minnie  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg110528#msg110528)
344. The World Is Gong Wrong--Mississippi Sheiks (Walter Vinson)  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg110528#msg110528)
345. Movin' Out Movin' In--Charles Caldwell  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg110844#msg110844)
346. Down The Road Of Love--Charles Caldwell  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg110844#msg110844)
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 18, 2016, 10:43:07 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is from Leroy Dallas, "Baby Please Don't Go Back To New Orleans", which is his version of "Baby, Please Don't Go".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/h50XqYJuYfc

INTRO SOLO

Baby, please don't go, baby, please don't go
Baby, please don't go back to New Orleans, baby, please don't go

Got me way down here, got me way down here
Got me way down here by Rolling Forks, treat me like a dog

B'lieve my man done gone, b'lieve my man done gone
B'lieve my man done gone to the county farm, b'lieve my man done gone

Did you know his name?  Did you know his name?
When he jumped off the truck you could not see 'im for the dust, you oughta heard him sing

Ain't but three more places, so Leroy wanta go
Atlanta, Florida, one trip to Pensacola, another trip to Balitmore

SOLO (Spoken:  What you say, guitar?  Baby, please don't go?)

Did you know his name?  Did you know his name?
When he jumped off the truck, you could not see him for the dust, you oughta heard them sing

When my work is done, when my work is done
Well, I'm goin' down in Florida, gon' lay down on the green grass, look up at that risin' sun

Baby, please don't go, baby, please don't go
Baby, please don't go back to New Orleans, baby, please don't go
 
The questions on "Baby Please Don't Go Back To New Orleans" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Leroy Dallas use to play the song?
   * Where does Leroy Dallas fret his V chord, from :12--:13, and how would you name the chord relative to his playing position/tuning?
   * Where does Leroy Dallas fret his first two strings at the front end of his solo, from 1:20--1:23?

The second puzzler is from Mott Willis, his "Traveling Man Blues".  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/x4RC9LLjwDc

INTRO SOLO X 2

Yes, I'm travelin' man, got a travelin' mind
Travelin' man, got a travelin' mind
I buy my ticket, ease on down the line

Yeah, my black woman squalled, scared my brown to death
Black woman squalled, scared my brown to death
I had to have my old big owl here,  and run my stinkin' self

The questions on "Traveling Man Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Mott Willis use to play the song?
   * Where did Mott Willis fret his opening phrasing of the I chord, from :05--:14?
   * Where did Mott Willis fret his turn-around chord at :56?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, June 20.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

Edited 6/26 to pick up lyric correction from Prof Scratchy
All best,
Johnm
   
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 18, 2016, 12:10:35 PM
Leroy is available to viewers in UK, but sadly Mott is Nott!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 18, 2016, 12:45:17 PM
Thanks for letting me know that, Professor.  I will see if I can substitute another Mott Willis track that will be watchable by Weenies in the UK.  Could you let me know if "Traveling Man Blues" is watchable for you?  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 18, 2016, 03:16:46 PM
Yes, that one's available here!


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Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 18, 2016, 07:19:21 PM
Ah, that's great!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on June 20, 2016, 07:04:26 AM
OK, here is what I have.  Some second guessing here, but I'll dive in - these songs initially sound easy to figure out, but on closer listening are not that easy!  I really like ?Traveling Man Blues?.

"Baby Please Don't Go Back To New Orleans"
Playing position/tuning ? E Standard
Fret V chord ? 5th str 2nd fret, 3rd str 2nd fret.
Solo beginning ? I went back and forth on this, but ended up going high.  Probably wrong, you?d think it would be easy to pick out two strings.  2nd str 8th fret, 1st str Open

?Traveling Man Blues?
Playing position/tuning ? C Standard
fret I chord ? 5th str 3rd fret, 5th str open, 6th str 5th str Open, hammer on 2nd str at 1st fret (?)
turnaround ? 6th str 3rd fret, 5th str 2nd fret, 4th str 3rd fret
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 21, 2016, 06:11:08 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Leroy Dallas and Mott willis puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on June 21, 2016, 07:25:32 AM
Leroy Dallas "Baby...." Never hear this artist before. I can hear similarities to Little Hat Jones in this song.
I'm with Slack with most everything on this.
E position Standard tuning.
V Chord- 5th string 2nd fret, 4th string open, 3rd string 2nd fret. Then I think he just slides the fretted notes up 2 frets (and back down)
Solo- 2nd string 8th fret, 1st string open (pretty sure I can hear 2 tones there)


Mott Willis "Traveling Man"
E position, Standard tuning, Tuned down 2 steps (Can hear the low E string throughout)
I Chord- Open 6th string, hammer onto 1st fret of 3rd string (perhaps inaudible 4th string at 2nd fret just for hand position)
V - I struggled with this one, but I think I hear the 2nd fret of the 1st, 3rd and 6th strings (and possibly an open 2nd string?)
Rooster crows at :14 - With headphones on, I mistook this for my infant daughter crying...more than once. Lol

Johnm- Thank you for taking the time to find the songs and explain them. This is a fun exercise, and want to get better at figuring out songs on my own. I am finding myself listening a little deeper into songs lately- picking up on sounds I hadn't heard before. You've also introduced me to some cool musicians from a time period that I don't know a lot about (1940's & 50's).
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 21, 2016, 12:39:40 PM
E standard and C standard works for me too on the Leroy Dallas and Mott Willis tunes respectively.

For Baby Please Don't Go, the V chord, from :12--:13, I'm hearing as a muffled 5th & 3rd strings at 2nd fret. 
Where does Leroy Dallas fret his first two strings at the front end of his solo, from 1:20--1:23?  This has been eating away at me.  I wanted to agree with the 2nd str 8 fret and open 1st str, but I'm not sure as he seems to go quickly down the neck to his E chord. Which had me thinking it was 1st str 3rd fret & open, maybe catching the open 2nd str.  Or, more strangely 1st str 3rd fret and 2nd str 5th fret (?!)...then I went for lie down.

Suitably refreshed, I turned to;
 * Where did Mott Willis fret his opening phrasing of the I chord, from :05--:14?
5th str 3rd fret, 6th str 3rd fret, open 5th str, 6th str 3rd fret, open 5th str.  Which may not be exactly what he's playing, but I really like it and can't get it out my head now.
   * Where did Mott Willis fret his turn-around chord at :56?
Pretty much what Slack said, but I'm hearing a B (open 2nd string) in there too.

Love Traveling Man Blues too....
 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on June 21, 2016, 02:51:38 PM
Hi all

For "Baby Please Don't Go", agreed on E standard with the others.

I think Forgetful Jones described the V chord correctly as well.

For the double stop on the beginning of the solo, I'll propose 1st string 3rd fret, together with 2nd string 2nd fret; alternated with the top open strings.

For "Traveling Man", I'll vote for E standard as well, tuned down low. I was tempted to think of cross-note tuning as well, since it would make playing the opening I chord lick really easy, but then I think I'm hearing the low root on the IV chord, which seems to rule it out. So I'm sticking with E standard.

The opening I chord phrase goes something like this, if I'm note mistaken: open third string quickly hammered to the 1st fret, followed by the 4th string 2nd fret. Then 5th string 4th fret, and 5th string 2nd fret; followed with the 5th string 4th fret again; then the open 6th string, before the lick is repeated. On second time he adds the open 1st string on top, and inserts the open 6th string more audible between the beats and on the notes on the 5th string.

For the turn around V chord, I only hear 3 notes, 2-X-X-2-0-X.

Cheers

Pan







Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 22, 2016, 11:18:49 AM
I'll concur with what Pan says!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on June 23, 2016, 09:51:20 AM
Just got to the, I've been a bit off colour.

E & E
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 25, 2016, 08:22:34 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who wanted to post answers to the Leroy Dallas and Mott Willis puzzlers has done so, so here are the answers:

For Leroy Dallas's "Baby Please Don't Go Back To New Orleans":
   * His playing position was E in standard tuning, as everyone had it--well done!
   * The V chord that Leroy Dallas played at :12--:13 had him fretting the fifth and second strings at the second fret, as Slack had it on the first post and all subsequent respondents had it--well done!  The chord (relative to his pitch) is a Bm7, and that use of the Vm7 chord gives the song a distinctive sound.
   * At the front end of his solo, from 1:20--1:23, Leroy Dallas is getting his sound by bending the first two strings at the third fret, really reefing on them, and then resolving them down to open strings.  This has him going from the bVII to the V note on the second string and going from the bIII to the I note on the first string.  They're all notes in the pentatonic blues scale, but what makes the effect kind of exotic-sounding is that the fretted bends and the open strings are all a fourth from each other, so he's playing parallel fourths, which have almost an Asian sound.  It's the kind of sound you might expect to hear on a koto.

For Mott Willis' "Traveling Man Blues":
   * His playing position was E in standard tuning, though he's tuned so low that his arpeggio at the beginning of his rendition sounds just like a C chord.
   * For his opening phrase, from :05--:14, Mott Willis rocked back and forth between the second and fourth frets of the fifth string, interjecting occasional hammers to the first fret of the third string, and striking the second fret of the fourth string a couple of times, all the while utilizing the open first and sixth strings.  It's a pretty darn tricky phrase!
   * His turn-around chord at :56 is just as Pan identified it--a B7 chord (relative to his tuning) voiced with its fifth in the bass:  2-X-X-2-0-X.  Well done, Pan!
I had not heard Mott Willis before finding this track and the one I posted originally before discovering it could not be viewed in Europe.  He really was a high concept player.  He was obviously along in years when he recorded these pieces, and I suppose that shows in his tempos, but both what he was doing and his ideas of how to arrange and get around on the guitar are of a very high order.  His playing reminds me a bit of Hacksaw Harney's.  One of the best things about doing this thread for me has been finding really excellent and original players I had never heard before, including Wallace Chains, Eddie Bowles, Big Boy, Reese Crenshaw, Emmet Murray and several others.  These are players who were not notably indebted in their playing to the more popular and well-known Blues recording stars of the day.  When you listen to records a lot, there can be a tendency to think that what was recorded was the sum total of what happened, musically, in the style.  Hearing these more obscure players, many of whom probably almost missed being recorded altogether, makes you realize that there were probably many, many players of great skill when the Blues was in its evolutionary "hot period" who never got to record, and who are forgotten, except in a few older peoples' memories.
Thanks to everyone who participated and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more tunes.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on June 25, 2016, 08:42:34 AM
And a Well done! to you Johnm for doing this fantastic topic of 'figure it out' tunes.  It is a great resource in and of itself.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 25, 2016, 10:14:07 AM
I'll second that!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 25, 2016, 03:51:21 PM
Thanks very much for the good words, Slack and Prof, I appreciate it.

I was trying to transcribe Mott Willis' lyrics to "Traveling Man Blues", and I think I have it all except a place in the tagline of the final verse he sings.  I'd sure appreciate some help with it.  You can listen to the song at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98165#msg98165 .
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 26, 2016, 02:35:43 AM
...big owl here...???
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 26, 2016, 08:31:28 AM
I think you got it, Scratchy.  The squalling sounded like an owl and was alarming.  I've made the change.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 28, 2016, 10:18:10 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is from Brownie McGhee, a cut I had never heard before, "Back Door Stranger", for which he was joined by Oh Red on washboard.  Here is the track:

https://youtu.be/syn5X3xX0Q8

The questions on "Back Door Stranger" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Brownie McGhee use to play the song?
   * Where did Brownie McGhee fret the interior descending line he plays under the first four bars of each verse, under his singing?
   * Where did Brownie McGhee fret the first four bars of his solo, from 1:36--1:43?

The second song is "Market Street Rag" by Kid Prince Moore.  Here is his rendition:

https://youtu.be/p16bcPsCrXc

SOLO

I had a gal, she was little and slim
Used to let me shake it, but she don't no more
Shook it in the kitchen, shook it in the hall
The way my baby shake it, baby, lawd, lawd, lawd

Baby's in the cradle, brother's gone to town
Sister in the dinin' room, tryin' on a gown
Mama's in the kitchen, just messin' all around
Daddy's on the housetop and he won't come down

Dat-da-da dada da
Dat dada dada da
Lat dada dat dada dada
A-deet deet deet deet dada

SOLO (Spoken: Oh, play it, boy)

Ah, Papa saw a chicken walkin' across the yard
Picked up a rock and hit the chicken hard
Now you know, chicken is dead
Baby's in the cradle and the gravy's on the bread

Dat-da-da dada da
Dat dada dada da
Lat dada dat dada dada
A-deet deet deet deet dada

SOLO

We was walkin' down on Market Street
Where the women, men all do meet
Gotta shake your shoulders, shake 'em fast
If you can't shake your shoulders shake your --

Dat-da-da dada da
Dat dada dada da
Lat dada dat dada dada
A-deet deet deet deet dada

SOLO

We was walkin' down on Market Street
Rheumatism caught all in her feet
She bent down for to rub her leg
You know, the same thing struck her in her yas-yas-yas

Dat-da-da dada da
Dat dada dada da
Lat dada dat dada dada
A-deet deet deet deet dada

Hello, here Mama, look at sis
Out in the back yard doin' that twist
"Come in here, dirty sow
Tryin' to shake your shoulders and you don't know how."

Ah, dat-da-da dada da
Dat dada dada da
Lat dada dat dada dada
A-deet deet deet deet dada

SOLO

Dat-da-da dada da
Dat dada dada da
Lat dada dat dada dada
A-deet deet deet deet dada (extended)

SOLO

Edited 7/6 to pick up correction from One-Eyed Ross
 

The questions on "Market Street Rag" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Kid Prince Moore use to play the song?
   * Where did Moore fret his phrase from :51--:53?
   * Describe Kid Prince Moore's chord progression numerically based on where the roots of the chords fall in the scale in which he is playing.

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before Friday, July 1 at 8:00 AM your time.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm



Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on July 01, 2016, 12:20:02 PM
Brownie McGhee:
Editing to change my opinion on this.
Standard tuning, A position.
The descending line is these notes GGF#F#EE ...I can't tell if there are significant notes in the line after that, or just strumming. I think these are all fretted on the 4th string while holding a barred A chord on the 2nd fret across the first 4 strings, and the pinky reaches up and grabs the 1st string 5th fret. The ring finger streeeeetches up to get the 4th string, 5th fret, then the ring finger moves down to the 4th fret, then the barred first finger gets the last two notes, followed by strumming on the A chord.
I'm not certain where the solo is played. That is really throwing me, so I tried some other tunings but I don't think Spanish or Vestapol are correct.

Standard tuning, G position capoed up to sound in A.
Descending line is 4th string 3rd fret, 2nd fret, then open 4th string.
The solo starts with a standard G cowboy chord, and it sounds like Brownie is releasing the high G to let the open 1st string sound, while he simultaneously grabs the F note at the 3rd fret of the 4th string. I think he is playing the top 4 strings. I can't really describe the timing of how he rocks back and forth between the standard G chord and the other shape, which comes out as a G13.

Kid Moore
I'll go with standard tuning, guitar tuned low a whole step, playing out of G position.
The phrase at :51-53 starts on the 4th string, 2nd fret and slides up to the 5th fret, where he plays the fretted 4th string and open 3rd string simultaneously. Then open 4th string, then 5th string 2nd fret, with a pull off to the open 5th, then the 6th string 3rd fret to finish on the root note.
The chord progression is VI - II - V - I.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on July 01, 2016, 02:24:02 PM
Brownie McGhee:  Ok, this one is a bit tricky for me, since I can see playing it in more than one way...either in G std, capo on 2nd fret (to sound in A) or A std.  I backed up 10 yards and punted, I'm going to say A std.   The  descending line (I think) is root, flatted 7, 6, flatted 6. 

Kid Moore - G std, a tone low.

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 01, 2016, 02:57:51 PM
I'm going to say A for Brownie and G for KPM. Brownie is pitched somewhere below the discernibility of my bilateral hearing aids, but I hear the washboard well, and it's definitely playing in A.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on July 02, 2016, 08:48:37 AM
A for Brownie and G for the Kid with sequence as per above. I seem to recall this sequence used by Mance Lipscomb.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on July 02, 2016, 10:27:04 AM
Quickly went through these tunes, but here's what I've got...
Brownie- Standard tuning, G position, Capo's at 2nd fret (or 3rd depending on tuning)
Descending line:
4th string 3rd fret
4th string 2nd fret
4th string open
5th string, 1st fret (bent)
6th string 3rd fret

Solo: Maybe an F-shaped, G chord and then a barred C chord (5th frets of 2nd, 3rd & 4th strings barred). Rocking back and forth between those chords.

Kid Prince More:
Standard tuning, tuned down 1 full step. Rag in G
:51-:53  5th string at 10th fret, 4th string at 9th fret, 3rd sting Open. I think I hear that G note doubled.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 04, 2016, 11:04:55 AM
Hi all,
Happy Fourth of July, everybody!  It seems like all the responses are in on the Brownie McGhee and Kid Prince Moore puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.

For "Back Door Stranger":
   *  Brownie McGhee's playing position was G position in standard tuning, as Dave and Forgetful Jones had it--well done, guys!  A couple of factors that would help in making that identification would be Brownie's V7 chord that he hits in the ninth and tenth bars of the form.  In the ninth bar, he fingers a conventional D7 at the base of the neck, 0-2-1-2 on the fourth through first strings.  In the tenth bar, for the first three beats he switches to a D7 fingered like a C7 slid up two frets, 5-4-5-3 on the interior four strings, and for the fourth beat switches to a Dadd9#5, 5-4-3-5 on the interior four strings, a really neat sound.  These positions could be done out of E, which is where they would be placed were he playing out of A position, but they would be considerably more difficult.
   * The descending line Brownie played under his singing in the first four bars of each verse is fingered just where Dave and Forgetful Jones put it:  While holding down the third fret of the first string, he walked down the third string from third fret to second fret to the open string, playing the line bVII, VI, V relative to the key and chord in which he was playing.  Well heard, guys!
   * In the first four bars of his solo, from 1:36--1:43, Brownie rocks between his I chord and a rootless IV7 chord like so:  He fingers a G chord out of the F shape on the top four string, as Forgetful Jones had it, 5-4-3-3, resolving from there into a partial C7 fingered 5-3-5-3 (if he had barred all the way to the fifth string at the third fret, the C7 chord would have been a barred version of an A7 shape at the base of the neck).  If you begin the phrase with your index finger barring the top three strings at the third fret, your third finger fretting the fifth fret of the fourth string and your second finger fretting the fourth fret of the third string, you can rock to the partial C7 simply by lifting your second finger and dropping your little finger in at the fifth fret of the second string. 
If you want to rock from a I chord to a IV7 out of any chordal position, the formula would be to lower the third of the I chord by one fret, and raise the fifth of the one chord by two frets.  The bIII you get by lowering the third of the I chord a half-step becomes the bVII of the IV7 chord, and VI you get by raising the V of the I chord one whole step becomes the III of the IV7 chord.  The I of the I chord becomes the V of the IV7 chord.

For Kid Prince Moore's "Market Street Rag":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning as all respondents had it--well done!
   * For his phrase from :51--:53, Kid Prince Moore slid from the second fret of the fourth string up to the fifth fret, hit the unison open third string, went back and forth between the unisons again, hit the open fourth string and then did a pull-off from the first fret of the fifth string to the open fifth string, resolving to the third fret of the sixth string, the I note of his key.  This is essentially as Dave described it--well done, Dave!
   *  Kid Prince Moore's progression for the song was VI7-II7--V7-I, just as Dave had it.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more.

All best,
Johnm         
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on July 04, 2016, 02:51:08 PM
John - Thanks for the breakdown on the Brownie song.  It was a toss up for me - I need to get a better coin for the coin flip, I guess.  (either that or better listening skills?  In my defense, her highness the grand daughter was upset I was interfering with her cartoon watching).

In the lyric for this song, in the "must have been a stranger" stanzas, I'm hearing the third line as changing from;

"padlock in his hand" on the first time through, to
"hand in his hand" on the second time through to
"pants in his hand" on the last time through.

Is that what everyone else is hearing?

My baby she done something she never done before
When I coming home she had a padlock on the door
Won't you tell me woman who's that left here while ago
When I come home who's that went out my back door

Well it must have been a stranger he did not understand
Went out my back door padlock in his hand
Won't you tell me woman who's that left here while ago
When I come home who's that went out my back door

Well I ain't gonna use no ice, gonna buy me a Frigidaire
Know that'll keep the iceman away from here
Won't you tell me woman who's that left here while ago
When I come home who's that went out my back door

Well it must have been a stranger did not understand
Went out my back door hat in his hand
Won't you tell me woman who's that left here while ago
When I come home who's that went out my back door

Well I'm gonna buy my groceries buy them every day
I know that'll keep that grocery boy away
Won't you tell me woman who's that left here while ago
When I come home who's that went out my back door

Well it must have been a stranger did not understand
Went out my back door pants all in his hand
Won't you tell me woman who's that left here while ago
When I come home who's that went out my back door

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 05, 2016, 07:00:03 AM
Thanks for the lyrics, Ross!  I realized after posting about "Back Door Stranger" that I neglected to mention the best way to discern the difference between the sound of G position in standard tuning and A position in standard tuning.  In G, the V7 chord is D, and in standard tuning the lowest-pitched D note is that of the open fourth string, which is where Brownie McGhee had it.  In A, though, the lowest-pitched root of its V7 chord, E7, is the open sixth string, and almost any guitarist playing an A blues is going to take advantage of that low E root for the V7 chord.  In G position, the roots of the IV and V chords are necessarily higher-pitched than the root of the I chord.  In A, the V chord's root is lower-pitched than the root of the I chord.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on July 05, 2016, 09:00:30 PM
Thanks, John. If I hadn't hurried, I probably would have picked up on that V chord, but....well, no excuses, I missed it.  But, it is a great tune!  Sometimes, I wonder how much of these tunes were personal experience vs. just cultural stereotypes of women.....the world may never know!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 06, 2016, 08:36:13 AM
Hi all,
I've been trying to transcribe Kid Prince Moore's lyrics to "Market Street Rag" at http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98294#msg98294 .  I think I have them all but a phrase in the second line of the fifth verse and would appreciate some help with that.  He may just have mis-spoken, but I can't tell.  Thanks for any help.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on July 06, 2016, 09:18:12 AM
I hear:

"Rheumatism caught all in her feet"
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 06, 2016, 10:06:53 AM
That is it, sure enough.  Thanks, Ross, I have made the change.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 10, 2016, 07:48:24 PM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is from Ralph Willis, and it is his song "Just A Note".  Boy, is he great on it!  I apologize for posting it in an anthologized video, but the only other videos of the tune I could find would not be viewable for European Weenies, I'm fairly sure.  In any event, "Just A Note" begins at 4:54 of the video, and here it is:

https://youtu.be/Q_JX3bBgsQ0?t=4m54s

The questions on "Just A Note" are:
   * What was Ralph Willis' playing position/tuning for the song?
   * Where did Ralph Willis fret what he plays in the eleventh bar of his first verse, from 5:26--5:28?
   * In his solo, where did he fret his IV chord, from 6:49--6:52?

The second song is from Dr. Ross, his number "Little Soldier Boy".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/7mZtrjSKc0k

INTRO

Baby, please, mama baby, please pray for me
Now baby, please, now baby, please pray for me
Because I am a little soldier boy, I'll need your prayer to get me free

Now, I gets up early in the mornin', my face all full of frown, sometime I get to thinkin', "I got a girl of mine",
Now, try, please, now baby, please pray for me
Because I am a little soldier boy, I'll need your prayer to get me free

HARMONICA SOLO (Spoken:  Pray for me, little girl, I'm sittin' over here in Korea.  Say a good prayer for me.)

You know, I told my baby, just the week before last, the skin she got, man, know that it can last
Now, try, please, now baby, please pray for me

The questions on "Little Soldier Boy" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Dr. Ross use to play the tune?
   * Where did Dr. Ross fret the IV7 chord he plays at :33?
   * Where did Dr. Ross fret his V7 chord?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday morning, July 12.  If you could post your answers relatively promptly after that it would help me out, because I'm coming into a very busy stretch of summer where I'll be teaching at several music camps and will not have as frequent access to the internet and the site.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on July 12, 2016, 12:03:04 PM
I've only had time for just the one listen through of each but at the risk of not giving these tunes the time they deserve, wanted to get my post in.

 I'm going for E standard for Ralph Willis, 'Just A Note' and A standard, a half step low for Dr Ross, 'Little Soldier Boy'

 * Where did Ralph Willis fret what he plays in the eleventh bar of his first verse, from 5:26--5:28?
Is this down at the nut, moving around the E & B7?
   * In his solo, where did he fret his IV chord, from 6:49--6:52?
Is this around an A chord at the 5th fret? 2nd str/5th fret & 3rd str/6th fret & reaching up to the 8th fret on the 2nd string?
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 13, 2016, 07:55:28 AM
I agree with Old Man Ned for the Ralph Willis one. For the Dr Ross one I'll say Spanish.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on July 13, 2016, 04:03:49 PM
Without guitar in hand, I agree with Prof. Scratchy.
Willis' IV chord I agree with Old Man Ned. Holding a position at the 5th fret. I can't do the rest without a guitar.

Dave

BTW John (and everyone), for those tunes that start further into the video, you can share the video URL so that it starts where you want by appending ?t=4m54s to the end of the URL. See that the numbers I put in there correspond to the starting point in min and sec?
Example:
https://youtu.be/Q_JX3bBgsQ0?t=4m54s
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 13, 2016, 04:47:51 PM
Thanks very much for the tip on fine-tuning the link, Dave!  I edited the original post as per your suggested modification, and it now goes right to "Just A Note".  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 14, 2016, 06:23:12 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Ralph Willis and Dr. Ross puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 15, 2016, 07:57:27 AM
Hi all,
I'm going to post the answers for the Ralph Willis and Dr. Ross puzzlers earlier than I normally would because it's the only opportunity I'll have to do so in the next week or so.

For Ralph Willis' "Just A Note":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning as everyone had it--well done!
   * In the eleventh bar of his first verse, from 5:26--5:28, Ralph Willis played as follows:  On 1+, he went from the open sixth string to the open first string.  On 2, he went from a thumb-brushed E chord on the fourth through first strings, and on the + of beat 2 he struck the second fret of the fifth string, starting a thumb roll into a B7 chord.  On beat three, he played a triplet, with the first note being a thumb-struck first fret of the fourth string, the second note an open second string and the third note of the triplet the second fret of the third string.  On beat four, he played another triplet, going from the open third string to the first fret of the third string and concluding on the open first string.  He plays the whole passage with such rhythmic life, it is really a treat--try it out.
   * He frets the IV chord in his solo just as Old Man Ned had it, essentially taking an F shape on the first four strings and moving it up so that the index barres the first two strings at the fifth fret, the second finger frets the sixth fret of the third string, the third finger frets the seventh fret of the fourth string, and his little finger frets, alternately, the seventh fret of the first string and the eighth fret of the second string.

Ralph Willis seems like one of those players like Jesse Thomas, who is still waiting to be discovered by present-day Country Blues fans.  As "Just A Note" illustrates, he could handle East Coast Blues with the likes of Buddy Moss and Blind Boy Fuller and hold his own admirably.  I think he may have eluded some folks' notice by virtue of being a post-War player, and also by recording a lot of tracks with extraneous (to my tastes) seconding guitarists.

For Dr. Ross' "Little Soldier Boy":
   * His playing position/tuning was Spanish as Prof Scratchy and Dave had it--well done!
   * His IV7 chord at :33 was fingered X-0-2-3-1-0, with the fretted notes being the portion of a C7 shape that is the same as it would be in standard tuning.
   * The final question, where did he fret is V7 chord, was a trick question, for in the course of "Little Soldier Boy", Dr. Ross never plays a V7 chord.  He is one of those players, like Sam Collins, who quite often seemed to actively avoid playing V chords.

Thanks to Old Man Ned, Prof Scratchy and davek for participating, and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I will not be posting any puzzlers for the next week, but will look for some interesting tunes to post then.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 24, 2016, 10:26:05 AM
Hi all,
I'm back from travels, briefly, and so I thought I'd post a couple of more puzzlers.  To speed up the response process, let's make the only question on these songs what playing position/tuning is being used to play them.  The first is from Rosie Mae Moore, "Staggering Blues", on which she is accompanied by Charlie McCoy on guitar.  Here is the duo's performance:

https://youtu.be/XUaW5NtTXE0

INTRO

'Cause you see me stagg'in', baby, don't you think I'm drunk
'Cause you see me stagg'in', baby don't you think I'm drunk
For I'm going away to leave you, I'm comin' back no more

Whyn't you tell me, pretty papa, where did you stay last night? (Shouted: Where did you stay?!)
Tell me, pretty papa, where did you stay last night?
He said, "It's none of your business, mama, so I treat you right."

'Cause you see me stagg'in', daddy, don't you think I'm drunk (Shouted: You know I ain't drunk!)
'Cause you see me stagg'in', daddy, don't you think I'm drunk
I've got my eye on my shotgun, the other one is on your trunk

SOLO X2 (Shouted: Oh, play it, Mister Charlie!)

Well, I love you, Mister Charlie, honey, God knows I do
Well, I love you, Mister Charlie, honey, God knows I do
But the day you try to quit me, rider, that's the day you die

SOLO

Well, I love you, Mister Charlie, honey, God knows I do
Well, I love you, Mister charlie, honey, God knows I do
But the day you try to quit me, Charlie, that's the day you die

CODA

What playing position/tuning did Charlie McCoy use for his accompaniment to "Staggering Blues"?

The second puzzler is from Tallahassee Tight (Louis Washington), and it is his version of "Got Heaven In My View".  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/ewLfvfpreJQ

REFRAIN: I got the Heaven in my view
And my journey I'll pursue
Promise the Lord, yes, I'll never turn back
Got the Heaven in my view

Standing on the tallest mountain
Looking to the earth and the skies
Saw King Jesus with his host
In the Heaven, He was passing by

REFRAIN: I got the Heaven in my view
Lord, journey I'll pursue
Promise the Lord, never turn back
Heaven in my view

Mother and father gone and left me
In this world alone
I have no home, so tomorrow
Tryin' to help me home

REFRAIN: I got the Heaven in my view, Lord, Lord
My journey I'll pursue
Lord, I promised the Lord, I won't turn back
Got Heaven in my view

When I was a little mourner
Mourned through sighs and fears
I promised the Lord, yes, I'll never turn back
I'll mourn one thousand years

REFRAIN: I got the Heaven in my view
And my journey I'll pursue
Lord, I promised the Lord I'll never turn back
Got Heaven in my view

The Bible tells me, "Witness,
Yes, the light from God up above."
When I find it on my way
I thought I'd serve Him above

REFRAIN: I got the Heaven in my view
My journey I'll pur--
I promise the Lord, yes, I'll never turn back
Got Heaven in my view

Falls from my knees one mornin'
Got on my knees for prayers
Cast my eyes to the Lord up above
To have mercy on me today

REFRAIN: I got the Heaven in my view
My journey I'll pursue
I promise the Lord, yes, I'll never turn back
Heaven in my view

When I was a mourner
I mourned through sighs and fears
I promise the Lord, yes, I'll never turn back
I'll mourn one thousand years

REFRAIN: I got the Heaven in my view
My journey I'll pursue
Oh Lord, I promised the Lord I won't turn back
Got Heaven in my view

What playing position/tuning did Tallahassee Tight use to play "Got Heaven In My View"?

The third puzzler is Memphis Minnie's "Caught Me Wrong Again".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/YRZvOvnE7Bw

INTRO

Well, you caught me and my baby, we both makin' friends
I can't say nothin' because I'm wrong again
You caught me and my daddy, we was makin' friends
Well, I can't say nothin', hee-eee, you done caught me wrong again

You know, you come to my house and you can't get in
That's the time you caught me and my baby makin' friends
When you come to my house and you can't get in
Well, I can't say nothin', hee-eee, you done caught me wrong again

If it hadn't've been for me my man would never have been in pen'
Every time he look around, he catch me makin' friends
Yes, if it hadn't been for me, my man would not been in pen'
Now he gotta serve goin' ninety years, hee-eee, he done caught his wife wrong again

SOLO (Spoken: Now play!)

You know, when you give me that money, go downtown and pay that bill you owe
I taken that money, bought my man a suit of clothes
Your job's tryin' to make friends, yes, I'm makin' friends
Well, I can't say nothin', hee-eee, you done caught me wrong again

Now, if I give you my money, you better not run around
If you got that in your mind you better lay my money down
Boy, stop tryin' to make friends, yes, you makin' friends
Well, you can't say nothin', hoo-ooo, your wife done caught you wrong again

What playing position/tuning did Memphis Minnie use to play "Caught Me Wrong Again"?

Please use only your ears and instruments to figure out the puzzlers and please don't post any answers before Tuesday, July 26, at 8:00 AM your time.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 26, 2016, 02:33:13 AM
Guitarless on Tiree at the moment, and without the best phone reception! However, I'll guess Spanish for the first one, D standard for the second, and A standard for the third!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 26, 2016, 11:26:59 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Charlie McCoy, Tallahassee Tight and Memphis Minnie puzzlers (thanks, Prof!)?  The turn-around time on these ones is going to be pretty quick, due to me having to leave town again.  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on July 26, 2016, 12:38:28 PM
Agree with A standard for Memphis Minnie, not had time for the other two yet.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on July 26, 2016, 01:58:01 PM
At the risk of being wrong x3, here goes!  (Hey, I do this as a learning exercise, so even mistakes are learning, right?)

Charlie McCoy played in G position capo to sound in B flat.

Tallahassee Tight played in E, std tuning

Memphis Minnie played in A, std tuning
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MartyW on July 27, 2016, 08:41:48 AM
Hi All,

I have

G position capo-ed at 4th fret to sound in B for Charlie McCoy

Tallahassee Tight played in E standard tuning

Memphis Minnie played in A standard tuning

Regards,

Marty
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on July 27, 2016, 09:37:58 AM
G standard for Charlie

D standard for Tallahassee

A standard for Minnie

Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on July 27, 2016, 01:19:59 PM
I'll go with the Professor.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 27, 2016, 02:50:46 PM
You made that mistake the last time, Phil! Some folk never learn!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 28, 2016, 06:40:23 AM
Hi all,
Thanks to all who responded to the puzzlers.  I'm going to post the answers now, since I'll be away with probably only intermittent access to a computer for the next little while.  Here goes:

For Rosie Mae Moore's "Staggering Blues", Charlie McCoy's playing position was G position in standard tuning, as Ross, Marty and Chris had it--well done!  The left hand Charlie McCoy employs lays out considerably easier in G standard than in Spanish, particularly an ascending run he plays on the fifth string at :05.  The identification was made harder than it would otherwise be by the fact that he never plays a IV chord in the course of his rendition, and the IV chord would have made the choice between Spanish and G standard  much easier to make.  It's interesting that both Charlie McCoy and Ishmon Bracey gravitated to G position at this stage of their careers, since G position was so rarely used by the Delta players who recorded at the same time.

For Tallahassee Tight's "Heaven In My View", his playing position was D position in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy, Chris and Phil had it--well done!  Louis Washington never plays a root of his I chord in the bass lower in pitch than the fourth string, and everything else he plays gibes perfectly with D position in the left hand.  It's not unheard of for players playing in E position to avoid the open sixth string--Bayless Rose did it, and Clifford Gibson did it in EAEGBE tuning, but it is pretty darn rare and kind of counter-intuitive.

Memphis Minnie played "Caught Me Wrong Again" out of A position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it.  From the sound of the I chord, she could have been in A position, G position or Spanish, but from the sound of her IV chord, she landed squarely in A position in standard tuning.

Thanks to everyone who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I'll try to post some more puzzlers the week-after-next.

All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 07, 2016, 06:59:22 AM
Hi all,
I'm back around again for a few days and thought it might be fun to have a couple of puzzlers.  The first is from T-Bone Walker, his very early (1929!) recording of "Trinity River Blues", with Douglas Fennell joining T-Bone's guitar with a piano accompaniment.  Here is the duo's performance:

https://youtu.be/-ZrL8gepuWw

That dirty Trinity River sure have done me wrong
That dirty Trinity River sure have done me wrong
It came in my windows and doors, now all my things are gone

Trinity River Blues keeps me bothered all the time
Trinity River Blues keeps me bothered all the time
I lose all my clothes, baby, b'lieve I'm going to lose my mind

SOLO

They are build a levee now, I have no more to worry 'bout
They are buildin' a levee now, I have no more to worry 'bout
If that river should happen to rise, won't have to move my things out

Trinity River rising, it came in my windows and doors
Trinity River rising, it came in my windows and doors
If they was to swim mighty hard, baby, honey, it won't rise no more

SOLO

The questions on "Trinity River Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did T-Bone Walker use to play the song?
   * Where did T-Bone Walker fret the bass fill he plays from :58--1:00?

The second song is Leadbelly's "You Can't Lose-A Me, Charlie".  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/NSzzTEtdxfc

What playing position/tuning did Leadbelly use to play the song?

The third puzzler is Mance Lipscomb's "Evil Blues".  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/uyN1_9oNNwY

My man's studyin' evil, you'd be evil, too
Yes, I'm evil, you'd be evil, too
My man's studyin' evil, you'd be evil, too
'Time I wonder, what in the world I'm gonna do

Now, you brought me to this, daddy, and you done left town
Brought me this here, daddy, you done left town
Yeah, you brought me to this, daddy then you done left town
Stayed with me 'til you drug me down

That's why I'm evil, you'd be evil, too
Yes, I'm evil, you'd be evil, too
Yes, I'm evil, you'd be evil, too
My gal done quit me, don't know what to do

Standin' here, lookin' one thousand miles away
Oh, I'm standin' here, lookin' one thousand miles away
Standin' here, lookin' one thousand miles away
My daddy done left me, and I'm got to stay

I'm evil, you'd be evil, too
Yes, I'm evil, you'd be evil, too
Yes, I'm evil, you'd be evil, too
Sometime I wonder what in the world I'm goin' to do

SOLO

I'm standin' here, lookin' one thousand miles away
I'm standin' here, lookin' one thousand miles away
Standin' here, lookin' one thousand miles away
My daddy left me, and I'm got to stay

My man's studyin' evil, you'd be evil, too
Man's studyin' evil, you'd be evil, too
Mans studyin' evil, you'd be evil, too
Sometime I wonder, what I'm gonna do

SOLO

The questions on "Evil Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Mance Lipscomb use to play the song?
   * Describe the form of "Evil Blues" using roman numerals to name the progression.
   * Name at least one other song sharing the same form and chord progression as "Evil Blues".

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, August 9.  I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 08, 2016, 07:25:34 AM
T Bone Walker = A standard capo 2 to sound in B. Bass riff : 6/0 5/3b 6/0 5/3b 5/0

Leadbelly = 12str tuned to C playing in D standard

Mance = E standard ; I / IVm  /  I / IVm / V /  I 

What song has the same form? I know I'm going to kick myself when somebody tells me!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on August 08, 2016, 08:31:34 AM
I only got as far as Trinity River - it sounds in B, so I going with A std, capo at 2. 

Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 08, 2016, 11:31:34 AM
Sorry for jumping the gun on this one. I've just realised that today isn't Tuesday! This is what comes of being retired and/or extremely old!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 08, 2016, 11:34:53 AM
No worries, Prof!  There's no particular reason for waiting until tomorrow to post answers at this point, so everybody should please consider the puzzlers open for responses now.  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on August 08, 2016, 02:54:32 PM
T Bone Walker = A standard capo 2 to sound in B. Bass riff : 6/0 5/3b 6/0 5/3b 5/0

Leadbelly = 12str tuned to C playing in D standard

Mance = E standard ; I / IVm  /  I / IVm / V /  I 

What song has the same form? I know I'm going to kick myself when somebody tells me!

Lemon's Wartime is the one you're thinking of, although Fuller's Weeping Willow would qualify too.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 09, 2016, 12:34:28 AM
Doh!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 09, 2016, 02:48:13 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the T-Bone Walker, Leadbelly and Mance Lipscomb puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on August 10, 2016, 11:27:09 PM

Lemon's Wartime is the one you're thinking of, although Fuller's Weeping Willow would qualify too.

Weeping Willow isn't really the same - its in a minor key, while Wartime and Evil start on a major key, then go to the minor IV chords.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on August 11, 2016, 12:33:22 AM

Lemon's Wartime is the one you're thinking of, although Fuller's Weeping Willow would qualify too.

Weeping Willow isn't really the same - its in a minor key, while Wartime and Evil start on a major key, then go to the minor IV chords.

The A chord in Weeping Willow is major, not minor. It's only the IV chord that's minor.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on August 11, 2016, 02:43:04 AM
Today isn't tuesday either, so I'm glad you're all still here. Been very distracted of late but she's gone so I'll give this one a go!

T Bone sounds like capo on 2 and A position but the strings sound a bit loose compared to mine. How does he get that?

Leadbelly I'm not sure about at all.

Mance sounds like E standard

progression goes
I I7 I I7
IVm/IV7 I
IVm/IV7 I
V V7 V I
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Chezztone on August 11, 2016, 10:26:41 AM
T-Bone Walker playing in B?! No capo. Very cool.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Chezztone on August 11, 2016, 10:33:35 AM
And the Mance Lipscomb song reminds me of Wiley & Thomas' "Last Kind Words."
I don't know about that Leadbelly number!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 11, 2016, 12:34:13 PM
Hi all,
Thanks to all for the responses.  I'll post the answers now because I'll be busy for the next week or so and won't have time.

For T-Bone Walker's "Trinity River Blues":
   * His playing position was C position in standard tuning, though tuned a half-step low.  Gumbo's observation about T-Bone's strings sounding loose hit the nail on the head. 
   * T-Bone fretted the fill from :58--1:00 like so:  the fill starts on the + of beat two in the seventh bar of the form.  He frets the third fret of the sixth string on the + of beat two and rocks from there up to the first fret of the fourth string on beat three, back to where he started on the + of beat three, back to the first fret of the fourth string on beat four, back once more to the third fret of the sixth string on the + of beat four, finally resolving to the second fret of the fourth string on the downbeat of the eighth bar of the form.  If you use your third, or ring finger to fret the third fret of the sixth string, the first fret of the fourth string is fretted easily and naturally by the index finger and the second fret of the fourth string is right under your second finger.  So you can play the whole fill with no lateral movement in the left hand, really just holding a position.

For Leadbelly's "You Can't Lose-a Me, Charlie":
   * His playing position was D position in standard tuning, though tuned low, just as Prof Scratchy had it.  Well heard, Prof!

For Mance Lipscomb's "Evil Blues":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy and Gumbo had it--well done!
   * The form of "Evil Blues", expressed  in roman numerals would be as follows--it's a 16-bar blues, going to the IV chord twice:   
            |    I    |    I    |    I    |    I    |
            | IVm  |  IVm |    I    |    I    |
            | IVm  |  IVm |    I    |    I    |
            |  V     |   V     |    I    |    I   |
    * "Weeping Willow Blues" is similar to "Evil Blues" by virtue of having a minor IV chord, but it ("Weeping Willow") is a 12-bar blues, and has other formal differences with "Evil Blues".  Lemon Jefferson's "Wartime Blues" is an exact match-up--same form, same progression, even the same playing position.  "Last Kind Words" has an altogether different form and progression.

Thanks to all who participated and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more puzzlers to post when I get back.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on August 16, 2016, 02:14:16 PM

The A chord in Weeping Willow is major, not minor. It's only the IV chord that's minor.
Chris
Sure enough. I confused myself because I play a version of this that is a minor blues - I basically just converted the A to Am throughout. Less distinctive but I came up with a thumb pattern I really liked that I could repeat in context over both the i and the iv chords.

Dave
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 21, 2016, 12:32:44 PM
Hi all,
I have some new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is Tampa Red's "Dark And Stormy Night", from 1960, which first appeared on one of his Prestige Bluesville releases.  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/oJFa07aLdFw

INTRO

On a cold, dark and stormy night
Was on a cold, dark and stormy night
Well, my baby went and left me, just before daylight

I wonder, did she go to stay?
I wonder, did she go to stay?
I never thought that she would treat me this-a way

I'm troubled, in my heart and soul
I'm troubled, in my heart and soul
She got a sweet way of lovin' that make me lose control

KAZOO SOLO

My baby, please come back to me
Baby, please come back to me
If I been a bad fella, did not intend to be

Baby, come back to me, try me one more time
Come back, baby, try me one more time
Then if I don't pacify you, I will break my head a-tryin'

Baby, your daddy miss you so
Baby, your daddy miss you so
So won't you come back to me, baby, and ease my troubled soul? 

The questions on "Dark And Stormy Night" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Tampa Red use to play the song?
   * Describe where the chord he plays at :18 and :24 is fretted and name the chord.
   
The second puzzler is Brooks Berry and Scrapper Blackwell's recording of "'Bama Bound".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/ghNlWLW6Ous

INTRO

Mr. Engineer, please, turn your train around
Mr. Engineer, please, turn your train around
I believe to my soul that my man is 'Bama bound

If your train pass by, and and my daddy's on inside
If the train pass by, and my daddy on the inside
And I couldn't do nothin' but hang my head, and I cried

SOLO

Take me back, daddy, and try me one more time
Take me back, daddy, and try me one more time
Now, and if I don't please, I'll break my neckbone tryin'

Lord, I'm 'Bama bound, ain't got no railroad fare
I'm 'Bama bound and I ain't got no railroad fare
If that train leaves me, I'll walk that railroad there

OUTRO

The questions on "'Bama Bound" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Scrapper Blackwell use to play the song?
   * Where did Scrapper fret the chord he plays from :26--:33?
   * Where did Scrapper fret the fill that he plays from 1:20--1:23?

The third puzzler is K.C. Douglas's "You Got A Good Thing Now".  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/aIAXVQl5BC0

INTRO

I worked last week, and week before, and here I come runnin' with all of my dough
REFRAIN: You got a good thing now, you got a good thing now
Why don't you use your head, don't let 'em find you dead

SOLO

Looky here, mama, what you tryin' to do?  Tryin' to quite me, baby, and I been good to you
REFRAIN: You got a good thing now, you got a good thing now
Why don't you use your head and don't let 'em find you dead

SOLO X 2

Marry me, mama, tell you what I'll do--rob and steal and bring it home to you
REFRAIN: You got a good thing now, you got a good thing now
Why don't you use your head and don't let 'em find you dead

SOLO X 2

Look-a here, mama, where you stay last night?  Your hair all down, clothes ain't fittin' you right
REFRAIN: You got a good thing now, you got a good thing now
Why don't you use your head and don't let 'em find you dead

SOLO X 2

You marry me, mama, tell you what I'll do--rob and steal and bring it home to you
REFRAIN: You got a good thing now, you got a good thing now
Why don't you use your head and don't let 'em find you dead
Don't let 'em find you dead

The questions on "You Got A Good Thing Now" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did K.C. Douglas use to play the song?
   * Where did K. C. Douglas fret the IV7 chord he plays in his first verse?
   * Where did K. C. Douglas fret the opening of his solo, starting at 1:10?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, no transcription software.  Please don't post any answers until 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, August 23.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 23, 2016, 12:19:55 PM
For the Tampa Red tune I'm going with E, standard tuning.  Where the chord he plays at :18 and :24 is fretted, I'm thinking, an A7th at the 5th fret
0
5
6
5
0
0
and getting the G note at the 8th fret of the 2nd string.

Scrapper Blackwell, I'm also hearing in E, but he sounds high up the neck, capo around the 5th fret? The chord he plays from :26--:33? An A barred at the 2nd fret, stretching across to the C# and A on the 5th & 6th strings:
X
2
2
2
4
5

The fill that he plays from 1:20--1:23 is something like
0---------------
--3-2-0--------
---------1------
-----------2---2
-------------4--
----------------

The KC Douglas number I'm hearing in Dropped G with the 5th string tuned down to G and the 6th string to D.  The IV chord fretted around the 3rd fret, 1st string, 5th fret, 2nd string, reaching up to get the Bb on the 1st string.  For the opening of his solo, I'm hearing a similar shape up at the 10th fret and 12th fret, 1st & 2nd strings respectively.

Three wonderful tunes.  I've never heard Tampa Red like this before and any hearing of Scrapper Blackwell always brightens my day.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 24, 2016, 06:31:52 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Tampa Red, Scrapper Blackwell and K C Douglas puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on August 24, 2016, 08:39:13 AM
I don't have a guitar to hand here at work, but here goes:

Tampa -- E standard, and the chord I hear is an E7 with an added 9th on top, 0-2-2-1-3-2 -- I always associate this chord with Charlie Manson's "Nineteen Women Blues."

Scrapper I hear as his usual D accompaniment capoed up, with the chord he plays as X-2-3-0-3-X (a G7 in other words without the 1st string note). He really mutes this chord. Without a guitar I can't figure out the fill.

And KC Douglas I hear in A standard, with a standard C7 slid up 2 frets as his IV chord in the first verse - X-5-4-5-3-X. And the solo opener I think Ned had right, just 2 frets higher.

Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 25, 2016, 04:36:38 AM
The questions on "Dark And Stormy Night" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Tampa Red use to play the song? E standard tuned low
   * Describe where the chord he plays at :18 and :24 is fretted and name the chord. 02x132

The questions on "'Bama Bound" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Scrapper Blackwell use to play the song? Sounds like his D accompaniment, right enough, but I think his guitar must be tuned high and then capoed. Haven?t    quite worked it out!
   * Where did Scrapper fret the chord he plays from :26--:33? 32300x
   * Where did Scrapper fret the fill that he plays from 1:20--1:23? - ??

The questions on "You Got A Good Thing Now" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did K.C. Douglas use to play the song? A tuned low
   * Where did K. C. Douglas fret the IV7 chord he plays in his first verse? C7 shape at third fret
   * Where did K. C. Douglas fret the opening of his solo, starting at 1:10? D shape bent at 12th fret
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 26, 2016, 04:58:24 PM
Hi all,
It looks as though all the responses are in on the Tampa Red, Brooks Berry/Scrapper Blackwell and K. C. Douglas puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.

For Tampa Red's "Dark and Stormy Night":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning as every responder had it--well done!
   * The chord he plays at :18 and :24 is an E9 chord, which he gets by taking the E7 chord he was fingering, either 0-2-X-1-3, as Prof Scratchy had it, or 0-2-2-1-3, as banjochris had it, and adding the second fret of the first string.  I can't hear the fourth string at all in Tampa Red's voicing, and so can't say whether he was fretting that string or not. 

I know a number of people found Tampa Red's two Prestige Blues albums, "Don't Jive Me" and "Don't Tampa With The Blues" to be underwhelming, and I suppose if you were hoping for some of the wonderful slide playing of his earlier years you would have been disappointed, but I've come to realize I really love his singing on these records, just beautiful "old guy" singing, really expressive and sad, and he does a fantastic version of "How Long" on one of those records.  I really like the tone of his electric guitar, too.

For Brooks Berry and Scrapper Blackwell's "'Bama Bound":
   * Scrapper's playing position was D position in standard tuning, capoed up a ways
   * Scrapper's chord that he plays from :26--:33 is a G7 chord (relative to his capo placement), and he sounds the following strings--X--2-3-0-3-0
   * Scrapper's fill from 1:20--1:23 sits as follows:  It starts on the + of beat one in the eleventh bar of the form, with Scrapper hitting the third fret of his second string there. On 2+ he goes from the first fret of the second string to the open second string.  On 3+ he goes from the second fret of the third string to a bent third fret of the fourth string.  On beat four, he plays a triplet, starting on the open fourth string, going to the second fret of the fifth string and returning to the open fourth string, and resolving to a thumb-brushed D chord on the downbeat of the 12th bar of the form.

Brooks Berry and Scrapper Blackwell were an inspired pairing--thanks, Art Rosenbaum!  I love how Brooks Berry sounds like a Blues singer, not a Gospel singer singing Blues.

For K. C. Douglas' "You got A Good Thing Now":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning (though tuned low)
   * K. C. Douglas frets the IV7 chord in his first verse by taking a C7 shape and moving it up the neck two frets, as Chris and Prof Scratchy had it--well done!
   * K. C. Douglas fretted the opening of his solo, at 1:10, at the twelfth fret of the first string and the fourteenth fret of the second string.  You can hear him brushing the open third string with his follow-through as he brushes the first two strings with his index finger.

Thanks to Old Man Ned, banjochris and Prof Scratchy for participating.  I hope everybody enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more puzzlers.
All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 30, 2016, 02:17:15 PM
Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is from Cat Iron, born William Carradine, and it is his version of "Oh, The Blood Done Signed My Name".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/aK3LomPnMk0

INTRO SOLO

Oh, the blood, oh the blood, oh the blood done --
Oh, the blood, oh the blood, oh the blood done washed me clean
Oh, the blood, oh the blood, oh the blood done --
Oh, the blood done washed me clean

And it t'ain't no use in you talkin', don't you see what the blood done done?
And it t'ain't no use in you talkin', don't you see what the blood done done?
And it t'ain't no use in you talkin', don't you see what --
Oh, the blood done washed me clean

I tracked him, I tracked him, I tracked him --
I tracked him, I tracked him, Lord, I tracked him by his blood
I tracked him I tracked him, I tracked him --
Oh, I tracked him by his blood

Don't you see, don't you see, don't you see what the blood done done?
Don't you see, don't you see, don't you see what the blood done done?
Don't you see, don't you see, don't you see what the blood done done?
Oh, the blood done give me a home

The questions on "Oh, The Blood Done Signed My Name" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Cat Iron use to play the song?
   * What places on the neck does Cat Iron fret in the course of his rendition?

The second puzzler is from "Red" Willie Smith, his "Blues Style".  He was recorded in Alabama around 1951.  Here is "Blues Style":

https://youtu.be/k2j9JvY5IDo

INTRO

Look down, look down, way down --
A-look down, look down, way down that lonesome road
Oh, the place I used to live, then I can't live there no more

My house fell down and I can't live there no more
My house fell down, then I can't --
Oh, the babe I used to love then she love Mr. So-and-so-and-so

Little gal, little gal, can I go home with you?
Little gal little gal, can I --
You can tell your mother and father that old Bill come home with you

I knocked on her door, she wouldn't even let me in
Knocked on her door, she wouldn't even --
That's all right now, baby, don't lead me to your house again

Don't b'lieve my car, just once would never drive
I don't b'lieve my car, just once --
Oh, I drive it so this-a-way, and I drive it so that-a-way, and I made the water from your eyes

Edited 9/7 to pick up correction from One-eyed Ross

The questions on "Blues Style" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did "Red" Willie Smith use to play "Blues Style"?
   * Where did Willie Smith play the bass run he plays from :14--:17?
   * Where did Willie Smith play the descending bass run he plays from :37--:39?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, September 1.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 30, 2016, 05:00:40 PM
Hi all,
When I first posted the puzzlers, I posted one that I had posted before, Bull City Red's "Pick and Shovel Blues".  I've replaced it with Cat Iron's "Oh, The Blood Done Signed My Name".  Doh.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 31, 2016, 02:49:58 AM
Sadly neither of these videos is available in Transatlanticland!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 31, 2016, 06:30:14 AM
Thanks for letting me know the videos can not be viewed by European Weenies, Prof.  Here is an .mp3 for "Blues Style", and I'll attach one for "O, The Blood Done Signed My Name" to the next message so that everyone can participate in the puzzlers.  When the puzzlers have been answered I'll delete these posts to save space at the site.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 31, 2016, 06:31:22 AM
Here is "O The Blood Done Signed My Name".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: islandgal on August 31, 2016, 07:55:54 AM
Hi John,
I can't access the videos in Canada either. Not sure if it's my system, but the mp3s are barely audible.
Thanks.
Jean
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 31, 2016, 08:23:31 AM
I don't know what more I can do, Jean.  Listen hard.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on August 31, 2016, 09:33:31 AM
Tell us about your system, Jean. Maybe we can come up with a solution.

I just downloaded the songs and gave them both a listen using iTunes. The level of both cuts is the same as other songs in my music library--so no problems detected here.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 31, 2016, 09:36:34 AM
I downloaded them from iTunes also, Stuart, but was unable to load those .mp4-a files here--they're too big.  So I had to re-save them as .mp3s with the customized setting that allows them to load here.  They're probably kind of meager in terms of band width, hence the quietness.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on August 31, 2016, 09:44:14 AM
They sound OK, John--no different than mp4-a files I have in my music library, so I don't think anything has been lost re: volume. It might be something specific to Jean's system and settings.

Edited to add: I'm using an older version of iTunes. When I click on "Edit" in the upper left-hand corner, the drop-down menu shows "Preferences" at the bottom. Clicking on "Preferences" opens a box. Clicking on the "Playback" tab opens another box. Checking/turning on "Sound Check," "Automatically adjusts song playback volume to the same level." If you are using iTunes and  haven't already chosen the "Sound Check" option, see if you can find this option and give it a try. Maybe it will help.

I experimented by turning "Sound Check" on and off and playing the two cuts, but it made little difference on my machine.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on August 31, 2016, 10:09:49 AM
Sadly neither of these videos is available in Transatlanticland!

Prof. & Jean:

Have you tried pasting the YouTube URLs into Unblock Videos.com, the site Nicolas Dussart posted last week?

https://unblockvideos.com/

http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?action=recent;start=90

Since I'm in the U.S., I can't check to see if it works, but it's worth a try.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on August 31, 2016, 10:36:51 AM
The unblockvideos site works like a charm. I can't believe I didn't know about this site earlier.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: islandgal on August 31, 2016, 10:12:55 PM
Yes, the unblocking site works well. Thanks!
There is something wrong with my iTunes - can't get volume on any other tunes either. I tried checking the Sound Check option to no avail. More investigation is in order. Thanks for your help.
Jean
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on August 31, 2016, 11:26:06 PM
Sometime the settings of the sound card (either stand alone or integrated) and its audio properties control software can get messed up. Software is complex and what goes on deep down under the hood at times is anybody's guess. Potential conflicts abound. I've had the settings messed up by simple software installations and/or updates, so it's best to go back to square zero and check everything from the ground up. There's one program I use that slides the balance all the way to the right on the Windows Master Volume Control when I launch it. Go figure.

I'd check the speaker type and all the slider settings for starters. I think that this modern technology of ours is channeling the spirit of Mr. Fonebone. It's just that we don't know it.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: islandgal on September 01, 2016, 08:02:14 AM
Thanks for your suggestions Stuart. I have rebooted (when in doubt...) and my problem has resolved. Whew!
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on September 01, 2016, 08:20:03 AM
Hi Jean: Glad to hear that the problem has been resolved.

I should add that when something like this occurs there's always the chance that  it's due to a hardware problem--loose connection, a chip or other component in the audio section that has failed, etc. An inexpensive "spare" to have on hand is a USB External Sound Adapter. Amazon has them for $7 USD, but I've seen them on sale at around $4 at Fry's, Newegg, etc. Here's a link:

https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-External-Adapter-Windows-AU-MMSA/dp/B00IRVQ0F8

You just plug it in and reconfigure your devices so it's set as the default audio adapter/card. Given the hassle of taking  a laptop apart to check the connections, it's a cheap alternative.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 01, 2016, 03:49:11 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the "Red" Willie Smith and Cat Iron puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on September 01, 2016, 05:09:33 PM
Great songs. I've never heard either of them before. I'm only using my ears hear, and I really wish I had my guitar to test these:

The Cat Iron song sounds like Vestapol tuning to me.

Red Willie Smith:
Standard tuning E position tuned a little low.
The run at :14 I can't tell if he's maybe sliding at the 5th-to-6th fret of the 6th string or maybe hammering onto the first fret of the 5th string? and then he play's the 3rd fret of the 6th string, etc.
The run at :37 reminds me of Doc Watson's Deep River Blues, fooling around the 2nd fret and open 4th string, the 2nd fret and open 5th string and the 3rd fret and open E string.

John, I feel a little bit guilty that I haven't played the last few of these, cause I know you put some serious time into this. Being a teacher, my spare time to play my geetar and hang out on Weenie Campbell dwindles as summer ends. I do really appreciate everything this Forum offers, and I'll try to check in more often. Thank you.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 02, 2016, 02:58:43 AM
The questions on "Oh, The Blood Done Signed My Name" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Cat Iron use to play the song? Vestapol
   * What places on the neck does Cat Iron fret in the course of his rendition? Haven?t worked this out!

The questions on "Blues Style" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did "Red" Willie Smith use to play "Blues Style"? E standard tuned low
   * Where did Willie Smith play the bass run he plays from :14--:17? 5/0>h1>h2>0>0>h1.h2>0>>h1.h2>0 6/3>5/0>6/3>0
   * Where did Willie Smith play the descending bass run he plays from :37--:390?
 5/2>p1 6/3 5/2>1p0 6/3>0
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 04, 2016, 08:56:28 AM
Hi all
Any other takers for the "Red" Willie Smith and Cat Iron puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on September 04, 2016, 11:46:10 AM
It sounds to me like Cat Iron is playing in Vastapol, but I got a bit lost with where he's fretting the melody notes.
"Red" Willie Smith is playing in standard tuning in E position.
The bass run at :14 to :17 is hammering on to the first and second fret of the 5th string then open and 3rd fret of the 6th string (three times) then 6th string open, 3rd fret, 5th string open, 6th string third fret and open.
At :37 to :39  he goes from the open 4th string to 5th string 2nd fret and back, 5th string pull off from the first fret to open string, 6th string 3rd fret, open, 4th string 2nd fret and strum. I think.

Thanks for the challenge !
Gordon
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: islandgal on September 05, 2016, 08:42:45 AM
Is Cat Iron playing in Vestapol, bass line on the 4th and 5th strings, melody on the second string, 3rd, 5th and 7th fret?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 06, 2016, 07:06:23 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though all of the responses are in that are coming in, so I'll post the answers to the Cat Iron and "Red" Willie Smith puzzlers.

For "O The Blood Done Signed My Name"
   * His playing position/tuning was Vestapol as all who responded had it--well done!
   * The only places Cat Iron fretted his guitar during the course of his rendition were the second and third frets of his second string and the second, fourth and seventh frets of his first string.  That gives him a melodic range from the open second string to the seventh fret of the first string, an octave above, and a pentatonic scale in that octave that runs V-VI-bVII-I-II-III-V.  Like John Hurt's "Payday", this song is very much like playing slide without a slide, and Cat Iron had a couple of tunes with that sort of approach on his one Folkways album.

For "Red" Willie Smith's "Blues Style"
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as all who responded to that puzzler had it--well done!
   * His bass run from :14--:17 was fretted as follows: a triplet, hammering from the first to second fret on the fifth string and ending on the open fourth string, open fifth string going to third fret of the sixth string on the next beat, those two beats repeated, the triplet played one more time, then the fifth string struck open twice consecutively followed by third fret of the sixth string returning to the open fifth string, ending with third fret of the sixth string resolving to the open sixth string.  This is very close to what joe paul and Prof Scratchy had.
   * The bass run from :37--:39 was  played as follows:  a triplet going from the open fourth string down to the second fret of the fifth string and returning to the open fourth string, then first fret of the fifth string resolving to the open fifth string, third fret of the sixth string to the open sixth string, jumping up to the second fret of the fourth string, followed by two strums of an E chord in the treble.  This is exactly what joe paul had--very well done!   
The piece has wonderfully spiffy and nuanced playing by "Red" Willie Smith--wow!  I've only been able to find three titles recorded by him, and he was obviously a stellar player.  It's odd to think of someone who could play this well not being famous, just being another guy who plays really well, especially nowadays when players from within the tradition are as rare as hen's teeth.  Oh well, we're never returning to those times.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I'll find some more puzzlers to post soon.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 07, 2016, 08:30:12 AM
Hi all,
I've been trying to transcribe the lyrics to "Red" Willie Smith's "Blues Style", which was in the last set of puzzlers, and I'm stuck on the last verse.  I sure would appreciate some help with it.  You can listen to the performance and see what I've got so far at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98735#msg98735 .  Thanks for any help.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: One-Eyed Ross on September 07, 2016, 08:48:15 AM
"I don't b'lieve my car just once would never drive"

I am sure about "just once would never" but the drive is a SWAG.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 07, 2016, 09:49:20 AM
Thanks very much for the help, Ross.  After your suggestion, re-listening, I heard "just once would never drive", too.  I will make the change, thanks!  Any ideas for the end of the tagline?
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 07, 2016, 11:54:13 AM
The tagline is pretty indecipherable. Sounds something like 'I drive it so drizzle (dismal??) and I drive it so bad when a man walks on the line (on behind???).  Hard one!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Longsands on September 08, 2016, 04:03:46 AM
Hi all.  I?m hearing ?Oh I drive it so dizzy when I drive it so bad I wouldn?a make it with a formal guide?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 08, 2016, 06:28:40 AM
Thanks for the help, Prof and Longsands.  I'm pretty sure I have the front end of the tagline right.  Here's what I have currently:
   Oh, I drive it so this-a-way, and I drive it so that-a-way, and I made the water from your eyes

It's the part after the second comma that I'm unsure of.  The sound is close to what he sang, but sense is lacking.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on September 08, 2016, 06:53:26 AM
That sounds right to me Johnm.  He made her cry for reasons unknown -- or maybe it was just his reckless driving...
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 08, 2016, 08:51:28 AM
What you say makes sense, John D.  I'll go with what I have.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 11, 2016, 08:32:50 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new tunes picked out for puzzlers, both performed by musicians previously unknown to me.  The first is "Western Rider Blues", by Lawyer "Soldier Boy" Houston.  Here is "Western Rider Blues":

https://youtu.be/XC-m-aWW9vs

INTRO

Well, they tell me cold West Texas, is out where the West begin
Well, they tell me cold West Texas, is out where the West begin
Says, I ain't no cow puncher, but I'll tie-line any man

Says, I don't wear no ten-gallon hat, I don't wear no spurs on my heels
Says, I don't wear no ten-gallon hat, says I don't wear no spurs on my heels
But when I get in the saddle and ride, all the women says I rides with a thrill

Says, I don't know how to rope a cow, and ain't never branded a steer
Says, I don't know how to rope a cow, and ain't never branded a steer
But I leave my brand, whenever I shift my gear

Don't know how to ride a buckin' horse, never rode in a rodeo
Well, I don't know how to ride a buckin' horse, never rode in a rodeo
But when I start to ridin', I rides it like a cowboy in a moving picture show

Well, if you don't b'lieve I can ride, ask all the womens down on Baptist Hill
Well, if you don't b'lieve I can ride, ask all the womens down on Baptist Hill
Because when they see me comin', they all holler, "Here come Ridin' Bill."

OUTRO

The questions on "Western Rider Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did "Soldier Boy" Houston use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret and play his signature lick from :59--1:01?
   * Where did he fret the variation on his signature lick he played from the end of 1:41--1:44?

The second puzzler is from Rattlesnake Cooper, and it is his "Lost Woman Blues".  He's joined on the cut by an un-named pianist, who, fortunately, doesn't drown him out.  Here is "Lost Woman Blues":

https://youtu.be/KMkfSk1gVUM

INTRO

Lord, I waved my hands, to the good Lord in the sky
Said, I waved my hands, to the good Lord in the sky
Said, if I don't love my woman, man, I mean I pray to die

I'm going to the Lord, I'm gonna fall on my bended knee
Says, I'm going to the Lord, I'm gonna fall to my bended knee
Says, if I don't love my woman, I swear I'll tell my deeds

SOLO

Says, I'm goin', Lord, and I just can't help myself
Said, I'm goin' to the Lord, and I just can't help myself
'Cause that woman that I love, and I don't love no one else

SOLO

Good Lord, Lord, Lord, there is something wrong with me
Well, Lord, Lord, there's something wrong with me
I ain't worried 'bout my regular woman, I want to see my old-time used-to-be

The questions on "Lost Woman Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Rattlesnake Cooper use to play the song?
   * Where did Rattlesnake Cooper fret the fill he plays from :52--:54?
   * Where and how did Rattlesnake Cooper play his IV chord phrase in his solo, from 1:15--1:19?

As always, please don't use anything other than your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM, your time on Tuesday, September 13.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: rein on September 13, 2016, 09:03:12 AM
great song ,western rider blues ! Sounds to me like it was played in g with the high pitched tonic note and the lower pitched bend on the third. it would be possible to play this in Spanish but i dont think he does. might very well be half spanish, i dont think i hear the iv note in the bass.(which is cool, most of my favourit songs seem to feature rootless iv chords)

thanks, rein (dont know if i am too soon but over here its tuesday)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on September 13, 2016, 10:28:20 AM
Soldier Boy I'm plumping for Spanish or half Spanish.

Rattlesnake Cooper, A standard.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: rein on September 13, 2016, 12:13:23 PM
as for the lick , i think its played on the 3rd fret and the open strings with a bend 3d fret 3rd string and a hammer on from bflat to b an octave lower on the 5 th string. A very fun song imho,  thanks for finding it !
(and leading me to sbh's dallas be bop blues:) )
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 14, 2016, 03:07:17 AM
The questions on "Western Rider Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did "Soldier Boy" Houston use to play the song? - I'm going to say half spanish for this
   * Where did he fret and play his signature lick from :59--1:01? (guessing!) 5/0 1/6b>3 2/6>3 3/5>3b 4/5
   * Where did he fret the variation on his signature lick he played from the end of 1:41--1:44? ??






The questions on "Lost Woman Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Rattlesnake Cooper use to play the song? A tuned low
   * Where did Rattlesnake Cooper fret the fill he plays from :52--:54?  3/2 2/2>3>4 1/0>0 2/4p3p2 3/2
   * Where and how did Rattlesnake Cooper play his IV chord phrase in his solo, from 1:15--1:19? 6/0>5/0 2/6sl7 1/5 2/7 1/8b>5
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 14, 2016, 01:18:30 PM
Western Rider Blues I'm hearing in Dropped G tuning.  It brings to mind Little Son Jackson's playing in this tuning.  Lost Woman Blues I'm hearing in A standard.  Unfortunately not had chance to delve into the details so this is all I've got.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 15, 2016, 10:23:44 AM
Hi all,
I'm going to let these puzzlers go a little while longer, but for those who have responded thus far, did you listen all the way to the end of "Western Rider Blues"?  Listen from 2:46 to the end of the track and see if you want to stick with your playing position/tuning identifications.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 15, 2016, 11:48:00 AM
Hmmm....too hard. If not half Spanish I'll guess A!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on September 16, 2016, 01:42:05 AM
A out of Drop D?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 16, 2016, 08:49:30 AM
So if Dropped G is missing the mark for 'Western Rider Blues' and listening from 2:46 onwards and the signature lick again.......is this in E standard?  For the signature lick from :59--1:01 I'm getting something like;

3--0----0----------------
------3-------0----------
-----------3------2p1----
-------------------------2
on the first 4 strings, accompanied by the (dampened?) low E in the bass?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 16, 2016, 11:00:57 AM
Hi all,
We don't appear to be getting any new responders to the "Western Rider Blues" and "Lost Woman Blues" puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.

For "Western Rider Blues":
   * Lawyer "Soldier Boy" Houston's playing position was E position in standard tuning.  Old Man Ned gets the cigar!  This ended up proving to be tougher than I thought it would be.  Here are some factors that help identify the playing position as E position:
     1) Lawyer Houston never hits a note lower in pitch than a low I note in his bass.  It's possible to play in Spanish, DGDGBE or A position, with or without a dropped D, and never hit a pitch lower than the open fifth string where the I note lives in those positions/ tunings, but it's pretty doggone rare, and I can't think of a song where such a thing happens, right off the bat.  Having a I note on the open sixth string suggests E position in standard tuning, EAEGBE, Dropped-D in D, Vestapol or cross-note tuning.  Old Man Ned's comparison in his first post of the sound to Lil' Son Jackson's sound is apt, but it's important to remember that Lil' Son had a bunch of tracks in E position, standard tuning, like his version of "Groundhog Blues".
     2) Lawyer Houston starts out hitting a IV note in the bass and doesn't really resolve to that low I note in the bass until the :13 mark.  In Spanish and DGDGBE, to get that IV note above the I, he'd have to be fretting the fifth fret of the fifth string, which is extremely unlikely.  A position in standard tuning is a possibility, but would probably be eliminated for the reasons cited above.
     3)  Lawyer Houston starts his outro at 2:46 by going from a low I note to IV-#IV-V on the next higher string, than a hammer from bVII to VII, resolving to I, an octave above the low I.  These notes sit open on the sixth string, open, first fret and second fret on the second string, and open, first and second fret on the fourth string.  The run clinches E position in standard tuning right there.
   * The run Lawyer Houston played from :59--1:01 is much as Old Man Ned had it. While hitting the open fifth string in the bass, he starts the run on the + of beat 1, at the third fret of the first string.  On beat two, he plays a triplet, pulling off from the fifth to the third fret on the second string and resolving to the fourth fret of the third string.  On 3 +, he goes from the third fret of the third string to the open second string, and on 4 +, he moves from the second fret of the third string to the second fret of the fourth string, finally resolving to the low I note in the bass on the downbeat of the next measure, concluding the run.
   * Lawyer Houston played the run from 1:44--1:44 as follows:  on the + of beat 1, he plays the third fret of the first string.  On 2 +, he goes from the open first string to the open second string.  On 3 +, he goes from the third fret of the first string to the open first string.  On 4 +, he goes from the third fret of the second string to the open second string.  On 5 +, he goes from the third fret of the third string to the open second string.  On 6 +, he plays a triplet in which each note is articulated separately by the right hand, going from the second fret of the third string to the first fret of the third string, resolving to the fourth fret of the fourth string, and once again resolving to the I note in the bass on the downbeat of the next measure.  That''s a cool sound, extending the run by two beats!

Lawyer "Soldier Boy" Houston was a new name to me, but I sure like his playing and singing.  He does have a lot of Lil' Son Jackson's rhythmic feel, though his vocals aren't as swampy as Lil' Son's.  "Soldier Boy" is a little smoother sounding, but he sure sounds good.

For "Lost Woman Blues":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * Rattlesnake Cooper played the fill from :52--:54 as follows:  On the + of beat one, he plays the second fret of the second string.  On beat two, he plays a triplet, going from the third fret of the second string to the second fret of the second string, resolving to the second fret of the third string.  On beat three, he plays another triplet, sliding into the fifth fret of the second string, playing the third fret of the first string and returning to the fifth fret of the second string.  On beat four, he plays one more triplet, sliding from the third to second fret on the second string and resolving to the second fret of the third string.
   * Rattlesnake Cooper played his IV chord phrase from 1:15--1:19 as follows:  on beat one +, he goes from the open fourth string to a slide into the seventh fret of the second string.  On beat two, he plays a triplet, going from the fifth fret of the second string to the seventh fret of the second string and returning to the fifth fret of the first string.  On beat three, he hits a bent eighth fret of the first string.  On beat four +, he goes from the open fourth string to a slide into the fourth fret of the fifth string.  On beat one + of the next bar, he once again goes from the open fourth string in the bass to a slide into the seventh fret of the second string.  On beat two, he plays the triplet starting and ending on the fifth fret of the first string and hitting the seventh fret of the second string in between those to notes.  On beat three, he hits the bent eighth fret of the first string.  On beat four +, he goes from the fifth fret of the first string to the second fret of the third string.  This is substantially how Prof Scratchy identified the run. 

"Lost Woman Blues" seems like another in a long string of great Texas "A" blues.  The piano does not seem to add a lot to this cut.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more puzzlers to post soon.
All best,
John     
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 19, 2016, 08:35:33 AM
Hi all,
I've got three new puzzlers for those of you who are interested, and in every instance the only question is what playing position/tuning is being used to play the song.  The first is "Mama Blues" from Ralph Willis (recorded as Sleepy Joe).  Here is the song:

https://youtu.be/6X2YK16MmX4

INTRO SOLO

Well, I'm gonna catch that old Greyhound, yes, that Greyhound
You know, I'm gonna ride from town to town
Yes, I'm gonna ride from town to town
Yes, I'm gonna ride from town to town
Find my little woman, don't think she can be found

Well, just had've listened, yes, had listened
Just beside, like mama said
Just beside, like mama said
I could been home right now, layin' 'cross mama's bed

Well, I want my mam', yes, I want my mama
Yes, I want mama
Yes, I want her, yes, I want mama
Well, there's something nice, then we can go long for'

SOLO (Spoken during solo: Play it light now.  Yeah!

You know, it's one Christmas, yeah, this was one Christmas
I ain't asked you now, to take me for Santy Claus
Yes, just take me for your Santa Claus
Even if my whiskers is not white and long

Well, well, well, well, well, well, well
Lordy, Lord, Lord, Lord
Well, well, Lord, Lord, Lord
Well, I used to be that woman's regular, now I have to be her dog

SOLO (Spoken during solo: Let's play it again!  Yeah!

Well, I'm gon' leave you, mama, yes, gonna leave you now
You know, the time ain't gon' be so long
Well, the mark in the family must be carried on

Edited 9/29 to pick up corrections from Old Man Ned, banjochris and Stuart

The second song is from Roosevelt Antrim, his "Complaint To Make".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/7k5FvT1KhtU

Said, look-a-here, mama, I've got a complaint to make
Said, look-a-here, mama, I've got a complaint to make
If things don't get no better, I'm gonna jump into the main

Said, long, long time, mama, baby, since I've been your slave
Said, long, long time, mama, baby, since I've been your slave
Says, I ain't gon' be your dog, mama, be your dog no more

SOLO

Come home last night, mama, throwed my dinner down to me
Come home last night, throwed my dinner down to me
Said, then you go, stay out all night from me

SOLO

I work hard all night, tryin' to be your slave
I work hard all night, mama, tryin' to be your slave
Said, I tried to get in, mama, but your other man, he had me barred

I got a gal 'crosstown, 'fraid to call her name
I've got a gal 'crosstown, 'fraid to call her name
When I leave this town, mama, I ain't comin' back no more

SOLO
 
The third song is from Levester "Big Lucky" Carter, his version of "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/xkugJUuJ2tg

SOLOS

Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
Swing, swing low, sweet chariot
Coming to carry me home

I looked over Jordan
What did I, what did I see?
Saw a big band of angels
Coming, coming after me

Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
--
Coming for to carry me home

SOLO

Please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your determination of playing position/tuning of the three songs, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, September 21.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 23, 2016, 10:53:23 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Ralph Willis, Roosevelt Antrim and Levester "Big Lucky" Carter puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 23, 2016, 12:48:31 PM
Sadly I'll have to pass on this one. I'm up a mountain in Spain with rudimentary internet!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 23, 2016, 12:56:37 PM
That's a pretty good trade, Prof!  If I had a choice between doing puzzlers and being in Spain, I'd take Spain every time, too.  I hope you have a great time!
All best,
John
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on September 23, 2016, 02:47:20 PM
Somehow I missed you posting this last one, John.

Mama Mama -
A standard (the IV chord especially is a giveaway)

Complaint to Make -
G standard

Swing Low, Sweet Chariot
Vestapol (I'm the least sure of this one; no guitar at hand)


Thanks for posting these, John ? that "Swing Low" is particularly beautiful.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 23, 2016, 05:45:22 PM
Agree with A standard for Mama Mama and G standard for Complaint to Make.  I was thinking E standard for Swing Low Sweet Chariot. Levester "Big Lucky" Carter is new to me but I love his playing on this tune. Thanks for introducing me :-)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on September 24, 2016, 09:02:40 AM
I'm with A and G but the Big Lucky has got me beat. I can't wait to find how he gets that sound.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on September 24, 2016, 10:57:48 AM
The third song is from Levester "Big Lucky" Carter, his version of "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/xkugJUuJ2tg

That's some very interesting playing by Levester Carter.... nice to hear that first string ringing out underneath licks that are pitched higher than it, but played on lower strings. Seems like the index finger drones almost constantly on the open first string and the phrases that consist of the main part of the melody are all played with the thumb.

Vestapol is nice for this, but I think cross-note is better. Depending on how hard you wanted to work at it, I suppose you could play the whole thing in std tuning, E position...  cross note preserves the simplicity of those treble fingerings while freeing up the bass notes to "friendlier" pitches.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Mr.OMuck on September 24, 2016, 01:50:53 PM
That's an extraordinary version of Sweet Chariot. Never heard anything quite like it or of Levester "Big Lucky" Carter. Thanks for posting it JohnM.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on September 25, 2016, 09:11:03 AM
Vestapol is nice for this, but I think cross-note is better.

Listening with fresh ears this morning, I think Chris had it right with vestapol...
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: lindy on September 25, 2016, 10:46:54 AM
I just posted a short film about Levester in the "Other Musical Interests on YouTube" thread.

A black American blues musician jamming with two elder Hungarian folk musicians. You gotta see it!

If you don't have the time to watch all 60 minutes, I suggest that you jump forward to the 38:30 mark and watch the next ten minutes.

Lindy
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on September 25, 2016, 11:19:43 AM
If you don't have the time to watch all 60 minutes, I suggest that you jump forward to the 38:30 mark and watch the next ten minutes.

I'll say...  nice fine, lindy!

looks like std tuning is the way to go! very interesting...
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 27, 2016, 09:40:25 AM
Hi all,
It looks like all the responses are in on the most recent set of puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.

For Ralph Willis's "Mama Mama Blues":
   * Playing position was A in standard tuning as all who responded had it--well done!  The IV chord was an early giveaway, as banjo chris noted.

For Roosevelt Antrim's "Complaint To Make":
   * Playing position was G in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--well done again!  I really like this song and especially like the title, it has a real "cut to the chase" feel to it that I find very appealing.

For Levester "Big Lucky Carter's "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot":
   * Playing position was E in standard tuning as Old Man Ned had it--very well done!  As was noted by a number of responders, this is really beautiful playing with an original approach.  "Big Lucky" is playing thumb lead while maintaining a droning open first string throughout the course of his rendition.  He's working primarily out of an A position E chord up the neck 7-7-9-9-9-7, without ever actually fingering that chord, but free-handing out of that basic configuration.  He never frets a note on the sixth string between the seventh fret and the open string.  He's able to get beautiful extreme bends at the tenth and eleventh frets because the strings are so slack there, and the sound of such bends happening at a higher pitch than the open E string that is droning away is unusual and really beautiful.  You could figure out he was playing E position standard tuning because at various points in the course of his rendition, he hits the open fifth, fourth and third strings very quietly, most often around the 2 minute mark.

Please don't post videos that essentially provide the answers to puzzlers before people have had a chance to respond.  There's always time to post videos after puzzlers have been answered.  Thanks to all who responded, and I hope you enjoyed the tunes.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on September 27, 2016, 10:20:33 AM
Very cool version, nice find Johnm.  It was recorded in 1994 in Memphis.  Would you refer to the technique as "pedal point" guitar?  A pedal point blues/spiritual... parts of the intro sound quite modern.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 27, 2016, 06:20:27 PM
Yup, John D., I would say "pedal point" is a good description of the approach the arrangement takes.  Hearing people drone away on an open sixth or fifth string is something we're pretty much accustomed to in this music, with John Lee Hooker, R. L. Burnside, Robert Belfour and others adopting such an approach quite often, but having the pedal on top as Levester Carter does on this track is really different, both in terms of execution and sound.  Kudos to him for coming up with such a beautiful way of playing the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 29, 2016, 09:33:27 AM
Hi all,
I always like to try and transcribe the lyrics of the songs that are used for puzzlers and would really appreciate some help with the lyrics to Ralph Willis's "Mama Mama Blues", from the last set of puzzlers, at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg98905#msg98905 .  You can see I'm missing words from the taglines of the last two verses, and I'm having a dickens of a time hearing them.  I'd also appreciate correction/corroboration of what I heard for the last word of the tagline to the first verse of Roosevelt Antrim's "Complaint To Make".  Thanks for any help.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 29, 2016, 01:13:21 PM
In the Ralph Willis second to last verse I'm hearing "Well, I used to be that woman's regular, now I have to be her dog"

The last verse has got me scunnered, I'm just hearing something like 'mark and stablish' but I'm not making any sense of that!

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 29, 2016, 01:45:15 PM
Thanks for the help, Old Man Ned!  "Regular" in that verse is definitely what Ralph Willis was singing, and I have made the change.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on September 29, 2016, 02:09:17 PM
Quote
I'm just hearing something like 'mark and stablish' but I'm not making any sense of that!

I'm hearing "the mark and the sadness" --- which makes no better sense...
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 29, 2016, 03:05:44 PM
And I'm hearing
   "Well the mark and the family, must be carried on"
which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, either!
What was Ralph talking about?
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on September 29, 2016, 03:55:39 PM
I hear "mark in the family must be carried on" -- close to what you heard, John. I remember hearing a usage similar to that (and I can't put my finger on what word it was -- it wasn't mark) and I seem to remember it meaning passing something down in the family. Not sure how that would apply here, exactly. Hopefully I'll remember what I'm talking about!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on September 29, 2016, 04:13:45 PM
I hear ..."The mark in the family"... (or something very close) too, John.

For the line right before it, "You know, the time ain't gotta be so long," I hear "gonna" for "gotta."

For "The mark in the family," the only thing I could find that hints at the meaning is to set a record or mark (as in sports with another family member keeping it in the family, like Chris says), or perhaps to make a mark as to record something. Perhaps he means continuing the family history or tradition of men leaving women who don't treat them right. That's my guess, anyway, given the context.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 29, 2016, 04:26:12 PM
Thanks for the help, Chris and Stuart, I'm going with "mark in the family".  Thanks, and I'll pick up "gonna" too, Stuart.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on September 29, 2016, 11:32:45 PM
I would think it would be more like a curse, a reference to the mark of Cain, that was visited on his sons. But this curse seems to make him have to leave, the itinerant traveler in the family that wears out his welcome and must move on, the life of the musician?

Just free associating here.

Wax
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on September 30, 2016, 03:56:51 PM
You could be right, Wax. Maybe where we hear "in," he's actually singing "on," so it's "The mark on the family"... Now whether it's a curse or a blessing, is another matter. POV and all that. ;)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 02, 2016, 07:13:23 AM
Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is from Jessie Mae Hemphill, and it is her "Broken Hearted Blues".  Here is her performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/Un7DQPaapGg

INTRO

Oh baby, oh baby, so broken-hearted on account of you, on account of you

Oh baby, oh baby,

Oh, come here, baby, and have a little talk with me
Oh, come here, baby, and have a little talk with me
You know I love you, you know I love you
Can't you see?

Oh baby, oh baby,

Ain't got nobody to love and care for me
Ain't got nobody to love and care for me
You know, darlin', you know, darlin'
You mistreated me

Oh baby, oh baby, oh baby

SOLO INTERLUDE

I'm settin' here, worried, trouble runnin' through my mind
I'm a-settin' here, worried, trouble runnin' through my mind
Gonna get my baby, gonna get my baby
Or lose my life tryin', lose my life a-tryin'

Oh baby, oh baby
Look now, baby

The questions on "Broken Hearted Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jessie Mae Hemphill use to play the song?
   * Where did Jessie Mae Hemphill play her signature lick which she plays twice from :25--:31?
   * True or False:  Jessie Mae Hemphill never plays lower in pitch than her fourth string on "Broken Hearted Blues".

The second song is Arthur Pettis' "Out On Santa Fe Blues".  Here is his performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/ylJB0ayfJz4

INTRO

Said, a woman and a dollar, they're about the same
Said, a woman and a dollar, they're about the same
Dollar goes from hand to hand, and a woman goes from man to a man

Don't let a woman know you love her, if you do, you have done wrong
Don't let a woman know you love her, if you do, you have done wrong
You comes from your work now, she got her clothes and gone

Then you catch you a freight train, goin' out on the Santa Fe
Then you catch you a freight train, goin' out on the Santa Fe
I can see you now, "This ain't the place for me."

Your mind'll tell you to travel, any and everywhere
Your mind tell you to travel, any and everywhere
When you're there, you won't stay now, you can't stay nowhere

I could tell the day, mama, I seen my baby's face
I could tell the day, mama, I've seen my baby's face
She started me to lovin' her, then treated me this-a-way

You have who you wanted, now please let me 'lone
You have who you wanted, now please let me 'lone
I hope he loves you, back up this road I'm gone

Edited 10/12 to pick up corrections from frankie and Johnm

The questions on "Out On Santa Fe Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Arthur Pettis use to play the song?
   * Where did Arthur Pettis fret the fill he played from :32--:36?
   * Where did Arthur Pettis fret the descending line he played from :57--:58?

The final puzzler if from David "Pete" McKinley, his "Shreveport Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/tKgztIOy7wE

INTRO

I gotta find my woman, boys, she's on my mind
I gotta find my mama, Lord, she's on my mind
You know, she ain't 'round here in Mississippi, Shreveport's four hundred miles down the line

Well, I got a special this mornin', beggin' me to come home
I got a special this mornin', beggin' me to come home
You know, I got to go now, partner, 'cause Irene is all alone

Lord, I'm, leavin' in the mornin', if I have to ride the blinds
Yes, I'm leavin' in the mornin', babe, if I have to ride the blinds
I got to go now, people, 'cause Shreveport is on my mind

SOLO (Spoken before solo:  Well, all right!)

Well, it's bye-bye, babe, Lord, I got to go
I said, bye-bye, people, oh Lord, I got to go
Yes, I'm leavin' Mississippi, Lord, you'll find me in old Shreveport

I said, bye-bye, dear old Mother, I can't live here no more
I said, bye-bye, Mother, I can't live here no more
Says, know I've got to go to Shreveport, Mama, 'cause I don't feel here no more

The questions on "Shreveport Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning was used to play the song?
   * Where did Pete McKinley fret his signature lick from 2:06--2:09?

Please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, October 5.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 06, 2016, 09:28:53 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Jessie Mae Hemphill, Arthur Pettis and Pete McKinley puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on October 06, 2016, 06:39:12 PM
A quick try, with headphones, before getting to bed!

The questions on "Broken Hearted Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jessie Mae Hemphill use to play the song?

Sounds like Spanish to me, as the signature lick seems to work well in it.

   * Where did Jessie Mae Hemphill play her signature lick which she plays twice from :25--:31?

If I?m not mistaken with the Spanish tuning, two top open strings, then slid into the 3rd fret; then again the two top open strings; then the 3rd  and 2nd string slid into the 3rd fret; then those strings played  open.

   * True or False:  Jessie Mae Hemphill never plays lower in pitch than her fourth string on "Broken Hearted Blues".

Again, providing that I?m not mistaken with the tuning, I think she ventures below on the 5th string at around 1:56.

The questions on "Out On Santa Fe Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Arthur Pettis use to play the song?

To my ear, the licks and chord shapes seem to work at C-position in standard tuning, with probably a capo to sound at around the key of D.

   * Where did Arthur Pettis fret the fill he played from :32--:36?

It sounds to me like he?s rocking back and forth with a regular open position C chord, and a G augmented chord, 3-X-1-0-0-X. The Augmented V chord is not that common in early country blues tunes, I believe, so a somewhat striking sound.

  * Where did Arthur Pettis fret the descending line he played from :57--:58?

Sounds like a chromatic run on the 4th string, from frets 3-2-1-to the open string.

The questions on "Shreveport Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning was used to play the song?

This one leaves me stumped. I was thinking Vestapol, but it sounds to me like he?s going to a low b7 note below the root on the bass strings. Or am I hearing nonexisting bass notes an octave too low? Perhaps others can come up with an better answer.

Cheers,

Pan

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on October 07, 2016, 04:12:36 AM
Jessie Mae - spanish. I too hear a low note there.
Arthur Petties - C I think, bit of a Big Bill lick in there
Pete McKinley - G standard tuned down
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 07, 2016, 11:57:29 AM
For "Shreveport Blues" I'm thinking E standard but about a half step high.  The signature lick from 2:06--2:09
0-0-0-0---------------
---------3-0-------0--
-------------2-0-1----
----------------------2
-----------------------
-----------------------

is about as close as I've got. 

I'm with Pan on the other 2 tunes, though I was getting nowhere with the fill  Arthur Pettis plays from :32--:36. 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 09, 2016, 11:10:46 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Jessie Mae Hemphill, Arthur Pettis and Pete McKinley puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 10, 2016, 11:15:01 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intended to respond to the Jessie Mae Hemphill, Arthur Pettis and Pete McKinley puzzlers has done so, so I'll post the answers.

For Jessie Mae Hemphill's "Broken Hearted Blues:
   * Her playing position/tuning was Spanish tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!
   * Here signature lick, played and repeated from :25--:31, is pretty much exactly as Pan had it.  Well heard, Pan!  She picks the first two strings open on the + of beat one, picks them twice, fretted at the third fret on beat 2 +, ties those fretted notes into beat three and picks those two strings open on the + of beat three, and on beat 4 +, she goes from either the the second and third strings fretted at the third fret or just the third string fretted at the third fret to the second and third strings open.  Jessie Mae Hemphill excelled at these sorts of signature licks--easy to play, but with an arresting sound.
   * Towards the end of her rendition, Jessie Mae Hemphill plays both the open fifth string, and once the open sixth string, so it is not true that she never plays a note lower in pitch than the open fourth string.  Everyone who responded had this questions right, too.

For Arthur Pettis' "Out On Santa Fe Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was C position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--good!
   * Arthur Pettis' fill from :32--:36 is pretty much just as Pan had it, and Pan's analysis of what was happening chordally there is spot on, as well.  Good on you, Pan!  Pettis rocks from a C/G:  3-X-2-0-1-X to a G augmented triad:  3-X-1-0-0-X.  The lick sounds great and sits very naturally under the hand.
   * The descending line from :57--:58 is likewise just as Pan had it, a chromatic descent of the fourth string from the third fret to the open string.

For Pete McKinley's "Shreveport Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was Spanish tuning, tuned down to sound at F
   * He fretted his signature lick, from 2:06--2:09, like so:  On the + of beat one, he picks the fifth fret of the first string.  On beat two, he plays a triplet, all three notes of which are the fifth fret of the first string.  On beat three, he plays another triplet, going from the third fret of the first string to the open first string and from there to the first fret of the second string.  On beat four, he plays a triplet going from the third fret of the third string to the first fret of the second string and from there to the open second string, resolving to the open third string on the downbeat of the next measure.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more puzzlers to post.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 10, 2016, 11:17:57 AM
Still on the road, but got to hear these and I'm going with blueshome for the keys/positions.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 10, 2016, 04:29:56 PM
Hi all,
I've been trying to transcribe Arthur Pettis's lyrics to "Out On Santa Fe Blues", from the most recent set of puzzlers, at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99047#msg99047 , and am really stumped in a couple of places.  I'd very much appreciate some help with the bent bracketed passages.  Thanks for any assistance.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frankie on October 10, 2016, 11:06:38 PM
On "Out On Santa Fe Blues"...

Quote
Your mind'll tell you to travel, in and everywhere
Your mind'll tell you to travel, in and everywhere
When you [        ] see now, you can't stay nowhere

I hear:
Your mind'll tell you to travel, ANY and everywhere

and

When YOU'RE THERE YOU WON'T STAY now, you can't stay nowhere

Quote
You ain't [heard my warnin'?], now please let me alone
You ain't heard [                   ], now please let me alone
[                                         , back up this road I'm goin'

I hear:

You HAVE WHO YOU WANTED, now please let me alone

and

IF I BE LIKE YOU, back up this road I'm goin'
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 12, 2016, 10:25:56 AM
Thanks so much for the help, Frank.  I have re-listened a bunch and agree with all of your changes except for the first part of the tagline on the last verse, which I think is
   I HOPE HE LOVES YOU, back up the road I'm gone
I've made all of the other changes.  I find Arthur Pettis pretty tough to de-cipher sometimes.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 14, 2016, 09:16:25 AM
Hi all,
I have some new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is from Lonnie Johnson, his "Away Down On The Alley Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/G4MCBJ3CziY

The questions on "Away Down On The Alley Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lonnie Johnson use to play the song?
   * What is the significance of the points in the rendition at :23 and 2:05, with regard to making the determination of Lonnie Johnson's playing position/tuning?

The second puzzler is on David "Pete" McKinley's 'Ardelle Blues".  We did his "Shreveport Blues" in the last puzzler.  Here is "Ardelle Blues":

https://youtu.be/XDrE5M7oOqc

INTRO

Ardelle, Ardelle, can't you hear me calling you?
Ardelle, Ardelle, can't you hear me calling you?
You know you're three times seven, baby doll, don't know what you want  to do

You used to cook my breakfast, baby, rush it to my bed
You used to cook my breakfast, Ardelle, baby, rush it to my bed
You know, ever since you been gone, baby, not a word that I can tell

SOLO (Spoken before solo:  Have mercy!)

You know I love you, Ardelle, baby, and I just can't help myself
Lord, I love you , Ardelle, baby, and I just can't help myself
While I'm tryin' to love you, Ardelle, I believe you're lovin' someone else

SOLO

Yes, I'm leavin' in the mornin', I'm gon' find my babe along
Yes, I'm leavin' in the mornin', I'm gon' find my baby along
It's bye-bye, Ardelle, babe, you know you did me wrong

The question on "Ardelle Blues" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did David "Pete" McKinley use to play the song?

The third puzzler is from Manny Nichols, his "Tall Skinny Mama Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/wr5LSoLOsM4

SOLO

I've got a long, skinny mama, people, who she worried my mind
Say, I got a long, skinny mama, people, how she worried my mind
You all know the poor girl live on the West Coast, eighteen hundred miles down the line

Now, all our relations don't mean me no good
All our relations don't mean me no good
She was so low-down, like the woman I loved in the neighborhood

SOLO (Spoken before solo:  Way I work with it now.)

I'll take me back down, Lou'siana, on my Daddy's sugar farm
Take me back down, Lou'siana, baby, on my Daddy's sugar farm
Says, you know when I get down there, won't nothin' in the world go wrong

SOLO (Spoken:  Kick it a little, boy  Take your time, work with it right.)

Take me back down to Lou'siana, baby, on my Daddy's sugar farm
Take me back to Lou'siana, baby, on my Daddy's sugar farm
Said, people, you know when I go back down there, won't a thing in the world be goin' on wrong

SOLO (Spoken: Now, whup it just a little bit, right there.  Gonna get good, to right here, people.  Let me work just a little bit.  I ain't played this old red guitar yet.  Oooo!)

The questions on "Tall Skinny Mama Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Manny Nichols use to play the song"
   * What note is Manny Nichols adding to his I chord at the very beginning of the song, and where is it fretted?
   * Where does Manny Nichols fret his V chord from :35--:38?

As always, please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, October 17.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 17, 2016, 03:25:25 AM
Well, last time I managed to post the wrong answer even after the correct answer had been posted by Johnm! That takes some doing. Back at my home computer now, so no excuses for the wrong answers, which now follow:

The questions on "Blues Down In The Alley" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lonnie Johnson use to play the song? - DGDGBE capoed at the third fret
   * What is the significance of the points in the rendition at :23 and 2:05, with regard to making the determination of Lonnie Johnson's playing position/tuning? - He plays the IV chord phrase starting up on the 13th fret of the first string whilst chopping a bass that includes the open fifth string tuned to G

The second puzzler is on David "Pete" McKinley's 'Ardelle Blues".  We did his "Shreveport Blues" in the last puzzler.  Here is "Ardelle Blues":

https://youtu.be/XDrE5M7oOqc

The question on "Ardelle Blues" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did David "Pete" McKinley use to play the song? - D standard tuned a half step low

The third puzzler is from Manny Nichols, his "Tall Skinny Mama Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/wr5LSoLOsM4

The questions on "Tall Skinny Mama Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Manny Nichols use to play the song" - E standard
   * What note is Manny Nichols adding to his I chord at the very beginning of the song, and where is it fretted? - I hear a sixth note on the second fret of the second string
   * Where does Manny Nichols fret his V chord from :35--:38? - 22020x
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 18, 2016, 10:05:02 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers on the Lonnie Johnson, "Pete" McKinley and Manny Nichols puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 18, 2016, 11:52:27 AM
Lonnie Johnson's "Blues Down In The Alley" I'm also hearing in Dropped G tuning, capo around the 3rd fret.
With regard to making the determination of Lonnie Johnson's playing position/tuning, around :23 and 2:05 I'm hearing him hit the top 3 or 4 open strings, after he's been way up the neck, and the high string still sounds tuned to E and given I'm hearing the open 5th and 6th tuned G and D respectively elsewhere brings me to open G.

David "Pete" McKinley's Ardelle Blues" I'm with Prof Scratchy, D standard, a wee bit low.

And also for Manny Nichols "Tall Skinny Mama Blues" E standard and the note added to the I chord is the 6th (C#, 2nd string. 2nd fret).  For fretting his V chord from :35--:38 I'm thinking, B7, something like:
x
0
2
1
x
2

Lovely tunes,
Thanks...
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 21, 2016, 10:42:50 AM
Hi all,
It appears that all who intended to respond to the Lonnie Johnson, "Pete" McKinley and Manny Nichols puzzlers have done so by now, so I'll post the answers.

For Lonnie Johnson's "Blues Down In The Alley":
   * His playing position/tuning was D position in DGDGBE tuning, as both Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned had it--well done!
   * The significance of the places at :23 and 2:05 in terms of determining Lonnie Johnson's playing position/tuning is pretty much as Prof Scratchy had it.  Lonnie Johnson is playing a IV chord at those points of the rendition, hitting a low root in the bass while fretting the first string at the thirteenth and tenth frets.  There is no way he could possibly be fretting the fifth fret of the sixth string, which is the only place a low root of the IV chord would live in Dropped-D tuning, while playing so high up the neck.  Therefore, he must be playing in DGDGBE tuning for "Blues Down In The Alley" (which is not to say that he never played in Dropped-D on other tunes).

For David "Pete" McKinley's "Ardelle Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was D position in standard tuning, as both Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned had it--well done!

For Manny Nichols' "Tall Skinny Mama Blues":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning as both Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned had it--right again!
   * The note he adds to his initial I chord in the song is the sixth, located at the second fret of the second string, as both responders had it--excellent!
   * For Manny Nichols' V chord, at :35--:38, he played X-2-1-0-0-X, which is a B augmented chord.  There is some precedent for using this chord as a V chord when playing in E position in standard tuning--Furry Lewis used it in "Dryland Blues".  I think the chord derives from taking an E partial, 0-X-2-1-0-0 and simply moving the shape intact, one string toward the bass.  The chord has a pretty cool sound, because it places the "blue third" of the key, G natural, on the open third string, and that's a bluesier-sounding note than the IV note, A, located at the second fret of the third string, which is what is normally played in a B7.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned for participating, and it's a treat to see them getting the answers so well.  I hope folks enjoyed the songs, and I'll keep looking for some new puzzlers.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 24, 2016, 02:55:40 PM
Hi all,
I have some new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is from 1949, "Race Horse Blues", performed by "Elijah Jones and his Guitar".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/MyoWlMJ48Yo

INTRO

Twenty Grand is the fastest race horse, well, that ever run around the track
Twenty Grand is the fastest race horse that ever run around the track
Now if you let me in your saddle, baby, I may ride the way you like

Says, I'm a well-trained jockey, mama, baby, won't you, please ma'am, let me ride?
I'm a well-trained jockey, mama, won't you, please ma'am, let me ride?
Then you let me in your little saddle, baby, I may make you satisfied

SOLO

You is built for speed now, baby, babe, you is fast like Twenty Grand
You is built for speed now, baby, baby, and fast like Twenty Grand
I'll do more now for you, little woman, than farmer work the land

The questions on "Race Horse Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Elijah Jones use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the position he is playing as the song begins?

The next puzzler is "The Chicken Song", by Waynell Jones.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/cg3gOL9dkso

INTRO SOLO

Ain't no need of me workin', workin' hard
Whoa, I got me a little woman, yeah, work in the white folks' yard
You know, it's plenty cool, just want you to know, she's nobody's fool

She kill me a chicken, she save me a head
Whoa, think  that i'm workin', boy, and I'm a-layin' in the bed
And I'm plenty cool, I want you to know, I'm nobody's fool

SOLO (Spoken before and during solo:  Play it now!  Yeah!)

Ain't no need of you running, holding out your hand
Whoa, I got me a little woman, yeah, you got to get you a man
And I'm plenty cool, I want you to know, I'm nobody's fool

She kill another chicken, she save me the wing
Whoa, think that I'm workin', boy, I ain't doin' a doggone thing
And I'm plenty cool, I want you to know, I'm nobody's fool

I said good-bye, bye, baby, If you've got to go
Whoa, tell me you don't love me, you don't love a-me no more
And I'm plenty cool, I want you to know, I'm nobody's fool

SOLO (Spoken: Play it now.)

She kill another chicken, She save me the feets
Whoa, think that I'm workin', boy, and I'm a-walkin' the street
You know, I'm plenty cool, I want you to know, I'm nobody's fool

Ain't no need of you runnin', holding out your hand
Yay-hey, I got me a little woman, and you got to get you a man
You know, I'm plenty cool, I want you to know, I'm nobody's fool

The question on "The Chicken Song" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Waynell Jones use to play the song?

The third puzzler is "Stormin' and Rainin'", from Country Jim Bledsoe.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/-jQdyyw9t5A

INTRO

Well, it was storm, it was rainin', babe, and the ground was covered with snow
Well, it was stormin', babe, it's rainin', well, and the ground was covered with snow
She say, "I'm puttin' you out, Jimmy, I can't use you in this world no more

Well, I was settin' in my back window, watchin' the taxi when it left my door
I knew it was a long time leavin', never see my baby no more
Well, and it hurt me, boy, all I could do was cry
I knew my baby left me, on the last good-bye
But you know I love that little woman, love her, all in the world I crave
Well, I declare she quit me, I'll put her deep down in the grave

SOLO (Spoken: Yeah! Yeah!)

 The questions on "Stormin' and Rainin'" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Country Jim Bledsoe use to play the song?
   * Where did Country Jim Bledsoe fret the run he plays from :10--:15?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, October 27.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 27, 2016, 09:46:06 AM
The questions on "Race Horse Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Elijah Jones use to play the song? - E standard
   * Where did he fret the position he is playing as the song begins? 2nd string 9th fret plus first string 7th fret



The question on "The Chicken Song" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Waynell Jones use to play the song? G standard





The questions on "Stormin' and Rainin'" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Country Jim Bledsoe use to play the song? E standard
   * Where did Country Jim Bledsoe fret the run he plays from :10--:15?

5/012 4/012 21 5/2 21 6/3b3b3b3b 4/012 6/0
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 27, 2016, 12:09:28 PM
For "Race Horse Blues" I'm in agreement with Prof Scratchy,
"The Chicken Song" I'm hearing in A standard and "Stormin' and Rainin'" also agree E standard, a half step high, but very slightly different fretting of the run;
-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
---------0-1-2-2-0----------------------0-1-2-
0-1-2-2------------2-1-0-----------------------
---------------------------3b-3b-3b-3b--------0
or it could be my ears, I've just had my haircut.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on October 28, 2016, 07:31:57 AM
I'm with the Prof.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 29, 2016, 08:40:36 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Elijah Jones, Waynell Jones and Country Jim Bledsoe puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 31, 2016, 10:59:15 AM
Hi all,
It appears that all who wish to participate in the Elijah Jones, Waynell Jones and Country Jim Bledsoe puzzlers have responded, so I'll post the answers. 

For Elijah Jones' "Race Horse Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning is cross-note tuning, at E, more or less.  A couple of indicators that point towards cross-note rather than E position, standard tuning:  1) Elijah Jones eschews the IV chord, and never plays a note on the fifth string lower in pitch than the V note.  2) While playing actively on the first three strings, Jones often brushes the sixth and fifth strings, voicing a I and V note on those two strings, respectively.  In E position, standard tuning, he would have to fret the second fret of the fifth string to get a V note there, and having to hold down that note would greatly reduce his freedom of fretting on the treble strings.  In cross-note he would have his I and V notes on the sixth and fifth strings both as open strings, which would allow him to free-hand all of his fretting in the treble.  3) The similarity in sound of Elijah Jones' approach to that of early Henry Townsend and some aspects of Skip James' sound when playing in cross-note is notable.
   * The position that Elijah Jones frets in the treble as the song begins is 7-5-7, going from the third string to the first string.

For Waynell Jones' "The Chicken Song":
   * His playing position/tuning for the song is G position in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy and blueshome had it--well done!  Jones is working out of a closed G shape at the third fret, with a thumb wrap, as Rev. Gary Davis most commonly played out of G position in standard tuning.  G position makes the boogie bass he employs over his IV chord  C, really simple in the left hand, while the same bass played over a D chord, as it would have to be in A position, standard tuning, lies considerably more awkwardly.  Also, at 2:27, Waynell Jones opens up from his I chord and whomps on the open strings in the bass.  The sixth string ends up being a VI note relative to his I, which labels the I chord as G.

For Country Jim Bledsoe's "Stormin' and Rainin'":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning as all who responded had it--well done!
   * His run from :10--:15 is fretted as follows:  open fifth string on the + of beat one, a triplet on beat two going from first fret of the fifth string to second fret of the fifth string twice, on beat three, a triplet walking chromatically from the open fourth string to the fourth string second fret, on beat four, a triplet going from first fret of the fourth string to open fourth string and second fret of the fifth string.  Then, a triplet from first fret of the fifth string to open fifth string to third fret of the sixth string, followed by a triplet on the third fret of the sixth string, then a triplet from open fifth string to second fret of the fifth string ending on a grace note hammer from the open fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string, landing on the open sixth string to conclude the run.  This is very close to what Old Man Ned had.

Thanks to all who participated and I hope everyone enjoyed the songs.  I've enjoyed finding out about all of these Post-War players I had never heard before.  I'll look for some more puzzlers.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 03, 2016, 10:04:32 PM
Hi all,
I have three new puzzlers for anyone who is interested, and they are all from Joe Callicott.  The first is "Down to the River" and here it is:

https://youtu.be/wLHvfq7SmlM

SOLO

Well, I'm going -- to the river of Jordan
Oh well, I'm going down to the rivers, Jordan, some of these days, hallelujah
Going down to the rivers, Jordan
I'm going down to the rivers of Jordan, some of these days

Well, God's gon' set this world on fire
God's gon' set this world on fire, some of these days, hallelujah
Set this world on fire
God's gonna set the world on fire, some of these days

Well, I'm gon' shake hands with my Mother
I'm gon' shake hands with Mother, some of these days, hallelujah
Oh, I'm shake hands with Mother
I'm gon' shake hands with my Mother, some of these days

Oh well, I'm going down to the rivers of Jordan
I'm going down to the rivers, Jordan, some of these days, hallelujah
Down to the rivers of Jordan
I'm going down to the rivers of Jordan, some of these  --

Oh, God's gon' set this world on --
Oh well, God's gon' set this world on fire, some of these --, hallelujah
Oh, God, set this world on fire
God's gon' set this world, oh, some of these days

I'm 'on' sure, shake glad hands with my Father
Oh yes, shake hands with my Father, some of these days, hallelujah
Shake hands with my Father
I'm gonna shake hands with my Father, some of these days

The question on "Down to the River" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Joe Callicott use to play the song?

The second song is "Lonesome Katy Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/nm-fYxZ8OaM

SOLO

I'm worried, won't be worried long
Well I'm worried, baby, won't be worried long
Well I'm worried, won't be worried long

She's a lit' baby, hold her in my arms
She's a little bitty woman, hold her in my arms
She's a brownskin baby, chocolate to the bone

I wish to --, some trouble train would run
Said, I wish to God some trouble train would run
Well, I take my troubles right where i got 'em from

You can always --, baby, lurking around
You can always tell, sweet girl is lurking around
She's always slipping out on the edge of town

Says, I wish to ---, to Katy blow
Says, I hate to hear lonesome Katy blow
Well, she blowed this morning like she wasn't gon' blow no more

Well, bring me your, blanket, soaking wet
Well now, bring me your towel, bring it soaking wet
Thought about Corinna, I ain't seen her yet

I's down, I di'n't have a dime
Well, I was down, I didn't have a dime
Well, I's settin' down thinkin' 'bout the woman all the time

The question on "Lonesome Katy Blues" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Joe Callicott use to play the song?

The third song from Joe Callicott is "River Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/r6cfKW5kjns

SOLO

Said, my Mama told me, Daddy told me, too
Well, my Mother once told me and Daddy told me --
Says, "The brownskin women gwon be the death of you."

Says, one thing, baby, say, can't understand
Says, there's one thing, baby, I can't understand
Say, you give all my money to your no-good man

Says, I walked to my window, walked to my door
One morning, baby, walked to my window, I walked to my door
Ain't gonna never be, one woman's dog no more

Says, blues, blues is a mighty funny thing
Oh well the blues, mighty funny thing
Says, these done harmed a-many man

Says, I want that baby . . . myself
Well, I try to take my baby, keep her to my--
You don't have me, girl, you shain't have nobody else

Says, a-reelin' and a-rockin', 'most every day
Well you're a-reelin' and a-rockin', 'most every day
Says, I got to get out to give old John's Olsen hay

Says, the rooster crowed, he jumped over at mine
Oh well the rooster crowed, jumped over to mine
Well, I'm sittin' down worryin' 'bout my Crow Jane all the time

SOLO

The question on "River Blues" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Joe Callicott use to play the song?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday, November 5.  Thanks for participating and listening and I hope you enjoy Joe Callicott's renditions.

All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 05, 2016, 09:41:53 AM
I certainly did enjoy Joe Callicott's renditions, who's music I'm not too familiar with and regrettably not able to spend the time on these 3 puzzlers as I'd like.  Excuse's upfront and out of the way, I'm hearing:
 "Down to the River" in C
"Lonesome Katy Blues" in G
(he sounds about a half step low on both of these)
and "River Blues" in Open D

Thanks for these 3 wonderful tunes.

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 05, 2016, 11:26:16 AM
I got C, G and E, all in standard tuned low.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on November 05, 2016, 05:17:11 PM
Down to the River
Joe is playing out of standard tuning, tuned somewhat low. He is playing out of C position.

Lonesome Katy
Joe is playing out of G open tuning, tuned somewhat low. His lick is reminiscent to me of some Furry Lewis tune.

River Blues
Joe is playing out of standard tuning, the guitar is a tuned to about Eb, playing out of E position.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 06, 2016, 07:09:40 AM
Down to the River  C
Lonesome Katy      G
River Blues - messed with this for a couple of days - Vastopol seems to work for me
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 07, 2016, 02:35:16 PM
Hi all,
It looks as though all who intended to respond to the Joe Callicott puzzlers have done so by now, so I'll post the answers. 

For "Down To the River":
   * Joe's playing position/tuning was C position in standard tuning, as everyone had it.  A couple of interesting points:  The melody of the song begins on a V note, and Joe chose to harmonize that melody note with a V chord, despite the same note being in the I chord.  In doing this, he was working from a pretty common tactic for harmonizing in this music:  when in doubt, assume that a melody note is the root of the chord over which it sounds.  There is a good bit of discussion about this in the "Harmony/Hearing Chord Changes" thread, located in the Main Forum at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=707.0.  Also, the first time Joe goes to his IV chord, F, he omits the customary thumb wrap to get the low F note in the bass, and plays instead the open sixth string . . . and it sounds fine!
   I think it would be criminal to talk about Joe Callicott's music without mention of his singing, which I find almost miraculously beautiful.  I am so thankful for the post-rediscovery recordings of Joe that were made, which made it possible to hear so much more of his music than would have been possible if only his early recordings had survived.

   * Joe played "Lonesome Katy Blues" out of G position in standard tuning.  As Dave noted, the piece is melodically similar to Furry Lewis's "I Will Turn Your Money Green", which Furry played in Spanish tuning.  Joe sticks to standard tuning for "Lonesome Katy Blues", though, because when he goes to his IV chord, he hits the root in the bass, and that note would not be available in Open G except at the fifth fret of the fifth string (or the tenth fret of the sixth string), in a location where nothing else he plays would be plausibly available.

   * Joe played "River Blues" out of E position in standard tuning.  When he goes to his very first IV chord in the song, at :06--:09, he plays it with its root in the bass on the fifth string and fingers a clearly audible "long A" chord, barring with his index finger the top four strings at the second fret and fretting the fifth fret of the first string with his little finger.  In Vestapol, he would have to fret that low root of the IV chord at the fifth fret of the sixth string, and it would make the rest of what he's playing very inconvenient.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you all found the listening to Joe Callicott as much of a treat as I did.  I'll look for some more puzzlers.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 12, 2016, 09:31:26 AM
Hi all,
I have some new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is from Tallahassee Tight (Louis Washington), and it is his "Black Snake Blues".  Here is his performance of "Black Snake Blues":

https://youtu.be/Z_m6VRh6GgA

INTRO

I'm cryin', oh-oh, where in the world my blacksnake gone?
I'm cryin', oh, where in the world my blacksnake gone?
I mean, there's some pretty mama done run my blacksnake home

Mama, it must've been a bedbug, baby, a chinch can't bite that hard
Then it must been a bedbug, I mean a chinch can't bite that hard
Then I asked my babe for fifty cents, she said, "Honey, ain't a child in the yard."

I'm cryin', mmmmmm, blacksnake crawlin' all in my room
I'm cryin', mmmmmm, blacksnake crawlin' all in my room
I'm mean some pretty mama better come and get this blacksnake soon

I'm cryin', mmmmm, where in the world my blacksnake gone?
I'm cryin', mmmmm, where in the world my blacksnake gone?
I mean some very pretty mama, now, must have done got my blacksnake home

Now mama, that's all right, that's all right for you
I mean, mama, that's all right, mama, that's all right for you
I mean, now that's all right, pretty mama, 'most any old, any ways you do

Now, you don't know, you don't know my mind
Baby, you don't know, baby, you don't know my mind
You keep your blacksnake worried, and work him 'most all the time

I'm cryin', oh now, blacksnake's crawlin' all in my room

The questions on "Black Snake Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Tallahassee Tight use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the fill he plays from :26--:29?

The second puzzler is from John Wesley "Mister Shortstuff" Macon, and it is his version of "No Special Woman".  Here is his performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/Etsx4KjWhAc

INTRO

Love my baby, love my baby, gon' tell the world I --
I'm just, tell the world I do

Tell nobody, tell nobody, what that gal told --
Tell nobody, what that gal told me (Spoken: yeah)

Sugar on the bottom, sugar on the bottom, I'm gon' keep her --
Sugar on the bottom, I'm gon' keep her down (Spoken: Play it, John)

I can stand right here,  gonna stay here, to get my rider --
Stand right here, to get my rider down

Come in here, baby, come in here, baby, tell what's on, on your --
Tell me, baby, what's all on your mind

Roll your baby, roll your baby, like you roll your --
Roll your baby, like you roll your dough (Spoken: yeah)

Lord, I feel, Lord, I feel, like my time ain't long

Keep on rainin', keep on rainin', could not make no --
Keep on rainin', could not make no time 

The questions on "No Special Woman" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Mister Shortstuff use to play the song?
   * What chord normally played in a blues progression is omitted by Mister Shortstuff on "No Special Woman"?

The third puzzler is Tom Bell's "I'm Worried Now".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/EYIEna0eKYc

INTRO

I'm worried now, and I won't be worried long
It won't be long, babe, 'fore I'll be gone

I'm leavin' here, don't you want to go?
I'm leavin' here, baby, don't you want to go?
Just to keep down trouble, Lord, I reckon I better go

If I had wings, just like Norah's dove
I'd fly from here, to the one I love

I'd rather be dead, six feets in my grave
Than to be 'round here, Lord, treated this-a-way

You can always tell when your woman's plannin' to put you down
You can always tell when your woman's plannin' to put you down
Your meals aren't regular and your clothes all layin' around

The questions on "I'm Worried Now" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Tom Bell use to play "I'm Worried Now"?
   * Was Tom Bell playing slide with his guitar in the conventional position or lap-style?  Justify your choice based on the sound of his rendition.

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any responses until 8:00 AM your time on Monday, November 14.  I hope you enjoy the songs, and thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 12, 2016, 06:12:38 PM
Hi all,
If any of the videos posted in the puzzlers are not viewable for non-U. S. residents, here is a fix that Nicholas Dussart provided a while ago and Stuart posted a reminder of:

Have you tried pasting the YouTube URLs into Unblock Videos.com, the site Nicolas Dussart posted last week?

https://unblockvideos.com/

http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?action=recent;start=90

Since I'm in the U.S., I can't check to see if it works, but it's worth a try.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on November 13, 2016, 04:03:49 AM
I've tried it. It works. It won't do any good if the video's been taken down, but if it's one of those "non-Americans, stay out" blocks ... well, it just slides round that old wall.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 15, 2016, 06:23:56 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Tallahassee Tight, Short Stuff Macon and Tom Bell puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 15, 2016, 07:19:52 AM
Can't get Mr Tight.

I'll venture A standard for Shortstuff. No V chord.

Tom Bell, High bass G tuning up at A, played on the lap.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 15, 2016, 10:59:07 AM
Out of action right  now with a wrist fracture - but I'll agree with blueshome from what I hear! Can't access the first video here and can't get the 'fix' to work either. Must be doing something wrong.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 15, 2016, 12:17:18 PM
I can't get the 'fix' to work either so I'm just going to have to have a crack at Mister Shortstuff's "No Special Woman" and Tom Bell's "Worried Blues"?.

I love "No Special Woman" and listening to it a couple of days back I was thinking A standard, but was really struggling.  I'm a bit more confident on A standard now though after listening again and suggest the E7 is being omitted.

Worried Blues I'm with Open G and suggest played on the lap as the bass strings sound like they are being fretted with the slide in places, which, though I very rarely play slide, would be easier to do with the guitar on the lap?

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on November 15, 2016, 04:11:51 PM
Hi all,

Here are my guesses,

I managed to listen to Black Snake Blues with YouTube unblocker.

   * What playing position/tuning did Tallahassee Tight use to play the song?
I?m guessing that he?s playing from the A position in standard tuning, capoed up. I think I?m hearing a long A, and the usual open position E7 chord played a lot, and the bass line has the V note as the lowest on the 6th string, if I?m not mistaken.

   * Where did he fret the fill he plays from :26--:29?
That?s a tough one. I?ll guess that he ?s playing a run in thirds, with the 4th string fretted at the 4th fret, and the 3rd string at the 2nd fret; moving down to 4th string 2nd fret with the open 3rd string; then the 5th string at the 5th fret with the 4th string  4th fret; before returning to the long A chord.

The questions on "No Special Woman" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Mister Shortstuff use to play the song?
I?m guessing E position in standard tuning, capoed up. He seems to avoid the major 3rd note of the I chord, and it would be easier in E position, than in A, I think. This would give the open 6th string the lowest root note of the key as well.
   * What chord normally played in a blues progression is omitted by Mister Shortstuff on "No Special Woman"?
The V chord.

The questions on "Worried Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Tom Bell use to play "Worried Blues"?
At first I was thinking of Vestapol, because of the repeating root-octave-5th bassline, but at 1:05 he?s hitting a low V note on the 6th string.. I believe. At the ending chord, the major 3rd note sounds like it?s on the higher 2nd string, instead of the 3rd string, so I'll say Spanish.
   * Was Tom Bell playing slide with his guitar in the conventional position or lap-style?  Justify your choice based on the sound of his rendition.
Being a terrible slide player, I have no clue! Would it be easier to avoid hitting the 6th string in the conventional position?

Cheers,

Pan
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 18, 2016, 12:05:41 PM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the Tallahassee Tight, Short Stuff Macon and Tom Bell puzzlers has done so, so I'll post the answers.

For Tallahassee Tight's "Black Snake Blues":
   * His playing position was Dropped-D tuning, playing in the D position.  He takes a little while to settle into place there, after a kind of eccentric intro, finally landing in his I chord around the :05 mark.  As he begins to sing, he moves the D shape up three frets, reefing on the second string.  At :15, he plays a partially barred D7 out of the A7 shape, fretting 7-7-7-8 on the top four strings.  For his IV chord, immediately following that, he works out of an F shape on the fourth, third and second strings, moved up two frets to 5-4-3 on those strings, a position similarly utilized in dropped-D tuning by Frankie Lee Sims on "Lucy Mae" and Walter Vinson on "Overtime Blues".  At :26, he resolves back to his I chord, hitting the low D note on the sixth string in the bass. 
   * For his fill from :26--:29, he brushes the second and third strings open, then brushes triplets fretting the third string at the fourth fret and the second string at the third fret, takes the position down two frets and brushes another triplet, followed by a triplet brushing the open third and second strings, resolving then to a D chord.

I'm sorry that so many people were unable to listen to the Tallahassee Tight track.  It's a particularly interesting cover of Lemon Jefferson's "Black Snake Moan".  I'll try to avoid using videos that everybody won't be able to access, and I know the kind that won't work.

For Short Stuff Macon's "No Special Woman":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as Pan had it--well heard, Pan!  Short Stuff opens the cut by playing an alternating bass from his sixth string to his fourth string, hammering on the fourth string at the second fret and ending up after the hammer with an octave alternation going from a I note on the sixth string to another I note on the fourth string.  It's right under the hand, and everything that follows falls into place after that.
   * Short Stuff plays no V chords in the course of the song, and I think everyone who responded noted that.  Well done!

For Tom Bell's "Worried Blues":
   * His tuning was Spanish.  His approach there is similar to Rev. Edward Clayborn's, inasmuch as both players alternate the bass when playing slide and hit their upbeats on the third string.  He differs from Rev. Clayborn in using the slide to fret in the bass, on the fifth string and Rev. Clayborn pretty much did not venture down there with the slide.
   * I agree with everybody who determined that Tom Bell was playing the slide lap style.  The ease and cleanness with which he was able to move between using the slide in the bass and using it in the treble suggest lap style.  It's especially trickier to do slide moves in the bass with the guitar in the conventional playing position.

Thanks to all who participated and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I look for more puzzlers to post soon.
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 20, 2016, 08:52:54 AM
I'm a bit more confident on A standard now

and it was E standard for Short Stuff Macon's "No Special Woman".......confidence is a dangerous thing!

Thanks for the answers,
Al the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 20, 2016, 10:16:29 AM
I know what you mean, Old Man Ned.  My advice is not to base your choice of tuning/position on the pitch at which a rendition sounds, but rather on the sound characteristics of what is being played, and how you could envision the left hand moving to achieve the sounds you hear--independent of the pitch at which the rendition sounds.  It's relatively rare in this music for playing position and the pitch at which a rendition sounds to match up.  I know that in the George Mitchell Collection, I found a tiny percentage of the performances there in which the playing position and key in which a rendition sounded matched up.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 23, 2016, 02:59:35 PM
Hi all,
I've got some puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is from Black Diamond, doing "T. P. Railer".  Here is his performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/YxsvLHCaPoE

INTRO

I left Texas with my woman by my side
I left Texas with my woman by my side
Since I've been livin' here, I can't be satisfied

She left me early this mornin', just about the break of day
She left me early this mornin', just about the break of day
You might have seen me huggin' the pillow, ooo-well, where she used to lay

SOLO

She caught that T. P. Railer, left me standin' in the cold
She caught that T. P. Railer, left me standin' in the cold
I didn't mind her leavin', but she taken Number 4

OUTRO

The questions on "T. P. Railer" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Black Diamond use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the fill he plays from :41--:43?

The second tune is Riley Puckett's "Fuzzy Rag".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/ulALiHO9VPc

SPOKEN:  Well, hello folks, here we are, once again.  I've got several letters and requests wishing to hear me pick the guitar alone.  Now, I'm going to play for you people first, "Fuzzy Rag", now pay close attention to these runs.

The questions on "Fuzzy Rag" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Riley Puckett use to play the song?
   * Where did Riley Puckett fret the run he plays from 2:41--2:43?

The third song is Arthur Weston's "Long Tall Woman".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/uzW31rrwKU0

INTRO

I got a long tall mama, man, she lives out on that hill
I got a long tall woman, man, she lives out on that hill
Yes, you know the little woman tryin' to quit me, well Lord, boys, but I loves her still

Yes, I got a long tall mama, she lives way out on that hill
I got a long tall mama, well Lord, boys, she lives out on the hill
Yes, you know that long tall woman's tryin' to quit me, but Lord, boys, but I loves her still

SOLO INTERLUDE

Oh Lord, boys, but I loves her still

SOLO

The questions on "Long Tall Woman" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Arthur Weston use to play the song?
   * Where did Arthur Weston fret the opening phrase of his solo, from 1:37--1:43?

As usual, please do not use anything other than your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, November 28.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 28, 2016, 04:52:31 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Black Diamond, Riley Puckett, and Arthur Weston puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 29, 2016, 03:48:20 AM
Still out of action with my broken wrist, so will just hazard a guess at the keys: A, C and E standard?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 29, 2016, 01:34:27 PM
Only had time to listen to "T. P. Railer" so far.  I'm hearing A standard and the fill he plays from :41--:43 at the 5th fret, sliding into the 6th fret of the 3rd string, something like:
------5---------------------
----5--8b- 5----5-----------
>6-----------7b---7b-------
---------------------------7--
------------------------0----0
------------------------------

Hope to get some time on the other tunes tomorrow.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 30, 2016, 12:24:21 PM
Following on from yesterday, "Fuzzy Rag" I'm hearing in C and not taking Riley Puckett's advice to 'listen to the runs carefully", I'm just saying the run he plays from 2:41 is based around a C7 chord at the neck utilising the 5th, 4th, 3rd strings and 2nd string first fret at the highest point of the run. Most of the other notes in the run I'm hearing are out of the C7 scale.
 
Arthur Weston's "Long Tall Woman" I'm hearing in E standard with the opening phrase of his solo, from 1:37--1:43 using the 4th and 5th strings open and at the 2nd fret and the 6th fret bent at the 3rd fret and open. Hope that's not too vague an answer....

 
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on November 30, 2016, 06:17:10 PM
Hi all

I'll give a try:

Quote
The questions on "T. P. Railer" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Black Diamond use to play the song?
I?ll agree with the professor and Old Man Ned on A position standard tuning.
Quote
   * Where did he fret the fill he plays from :41--:43?
This one is a bit tricky, because in my ears the fill could be played either from the ?long A? position on the 1st and 2nd frets; or the ?F? shape out of the 5th fret. I must be missing a clue, or I?ve got the playing position/tuning alltogether wrong?

Quote
The questions on "Fuzzy Rag" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Riley Puckett use to play the song?
Again, agreed with the prof, and Old Man Ned.
Quote
   * Where did Riley Puckett fret the run he plays from 2:41--2:43?
I?m hearing him playing a run from the ?long A? position, starting with the quarter note open 5th string; then eighth notes as follows; the long A chord X-(0)-2-2-2-5; then the 5th string 3rd fret; 5th string 4th fret: 4th string 2nd fret; 4th string 3rd fret; 4th string 4th fret; 3rd string 2nd fret, 3rd string 3rd fret; 3rd string 4th fret; back to 3rd string 3rd fret; and to 3rd string 2nd fret; 4th string 4th fret; then the open 4th string; then the 5th string 4th fret; and then the 5th string 5th fret, which is the root of the following D7 chord, played with a C7 shape two frets higher on the 3rd fret.

Quote
The questions on "Long Tall Woman" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Arthur Weston use to play the song?
Here I disagree with the prof and Old Man Ned. At first I too thought, that he would be playing in E position, since he plays the open root note quite a lot. However, I?m hearing him playing a lower V note on the 6th string occasionally, under the  the chords played at around 1:20. This would rule out E position, so I?m guessing A position standard tuning, tuned really low . This would give the I bass note on the open 5th string, and the V note on the open 6th string. Or I?m horribly wrong, and this is some kind of an open tuning!
Quote
   * Where did Arthur Weston fret the opening phrase of his solo, from 1:37--1:43?
A triplet with the open 3rd string, then the 4th string 4th fret, then back to the open 3rd string; then two eighth notes of open 3rd string; then again the triplet with the open 3rd string, then the 4th string 4th fret; then a triplet with a dotted eighth note with the 3rd string 2nd fret, the a sixteenth note on the 2nd string 2nd fret, and back to an eighth note on 3rd string 2nd fret;  Then two eighth notes on the 33rd string 3rd fret; then two eighth notes on the 5th string 3rd fret, bent slightly; then a triplet with the open 5th string, the 6th string 3rd fret, and the 6th string 5t fret; then a 3rdless A chord X-0-2-2-X-X.

Cheers, and get well soon, professor!

Pan
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 02, 2016, 08:45:19 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the Black Diamond, Riley Puckett and Arthur Weston puzzlers has done so, so I will post the answers.

For Black Diamond's "T. P. Railer":
   * His playing position/tuning was A position in standard tuning as everyone had it--well done!
   * He played the fill from :41--:43 as follows: The fill is in the seventh bar of the form.  He begins on the + of beat one, playing the first fret of the second string.  On 2 +, he goes from the second fret of the second string to the fifth fret of the first string, in the "long A" position.  On 3 +, he goes from the third fret of the first string to the open first string.  On 4 +, he goes from the bent fourth fret of the second string to the open first string, and on beat 5 (it is a five-beat measure), he plays a triplet, getting the first two notes  by pulling off from the third to the second fret on the second string, and hitting the third note of the triplet on the open fifth string, which he re-hits for the downbeat of the eighth measure. 

For Riley Puckett's "Fuzzy Rag":
   * His playing position was C position in standard tuning as everyone had it--well done!
   * The run he played from 2:41--2:43 was fretted as follows:  The run is played over an A chord (relative to his pitch/capo placement), starting in the first bar of the form.  On 1 +, he hits the open fifth string followed by an upward brush of the second fret of the second string and the fifth fret of the first string.  On 2 +, he does a downward brush of the second fret of the second string and the fifth fret of the first string, followed by the third fret of the fifth string.  On 3 +, he goes from the fourth fret of the fifth string to the second fret of the fourth string.  On 4 +, he goes from the third fret of the fourth string to the fourth fret of the fourth string.  On 1 + of the second measure, he goes from the second fret of the third string to the third fret of the third string.  On 2 + of that measure, he goes from the fourth fret of the third string back to the third fret of the third string.  On 3 + of that measure, he goes from the second fret of the third string to the fourth fret of the fourth string, and on 4 +, he goes from the open fourth string to the fourth fret of the fifth string.  What a great, twisty run!  It's especially cool because he had played a different run, exactly the same way, every time through the form at the same place, up to that point.  It's neat to hear a player bring in variations so near the end of a rendition.

For Arthur Weston's "Long Tall Woman":
   * His playing position/tuning was Spanish tuning.  A couple of factors help to identify the tuning by its sound:  At :16, he goes from a minor third to a major third, crossing strings, and hitting the major third on an open string which can be identified by its tonal quality.  From :32--:38, in the ninth and tenth bars of the form, he goes from a V chord to a IV chord and both chords are obviously being voiced exactly the same way, just moving the position down the neck two frets.  This could be done playing in E position standard tuning or A position standard tuning, but it would be non-intuitive and kind of awkward.  In Spanish, he is just moving a barre down from the seventh fret to the fifth fret.
   * Arthur Weston played the opening of his solo, from 1:37--1:43 as follows:  He opens his solo on the fourth beat of the twelfth bar of the form, playing a triplet going from the third fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string and back to the third fret of the fourth string.  On 1 + of the first measure of the solo, he hits the third fret of the fourth string twice.  On beat 2 , he repeats the pick-up triplet he played, going from the third fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string and back to the third fret of the fourth string.  On 3 +, he hits the open fourth string twice.  On beat 4, he plays a triplet, going from the open fourth string to the third fret of the fourth string and then the fourth fret of the fourth string.  On beat 1 of the next measure he plays a triplet, going from the fifth fret of the fourth string to the open second string and then back to the fifth fret of the fourth string.  On beat 2, he plays another triplet, getting the first two notes by sliding from the fifth to the third fret on the fourth string and then hitting the open third string for the final note of the triplet.  On 3 +, he hits a bent third fret of the fifth string twice, and on beat 4, he plays a triplet, going from the open fifth string to the third fret of the sixth string, and then returning to the open fifth string.  On 1 + of the third bar of the form he hits the open third string twice.  It's a terrific opening break to Arthur Weston's solo.  If you're able to get hold of his Testament CD, it is really worth the search, with terrific pieces in Spanish, E position, standard tuning and EAEGBE tunings, as well as some very strong duets with Big Joe Williams.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy, Old Man Ned and Pan for participating in the puzzlers, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I'd encourage more folks to participate in solving the puzzlers.  Judging by the number of hits in the thread, way more people are lurking than are participating, and I think you learn more by trying to make the identifications than by just waiting for the answers.  Okay, I'm off my soapbox.  I'll try to find some more puzzlers soon.

All best,
Johnm     
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 03, 2016, 07:56:40 AM
I would definitely say that you learn more by having a go at the tunes rather than waiting for the answer.  Though it may not be obvious from some of the answers I provide, I feel my hearing of tunes has improved a lot since I started trying to answer the questions.  I mean, what's the worst that's going to happen? You'll get something wrong,..... so what? Eventually you start to hear things better and that's got to be a bonus.

Cheers, Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on December 03, 2016, 09:37:31 AM
I would definitely say that you learn more by having a go at the tunes rather than waiting for the answer.  Though it may not be obvious from some of the answers I provide, I feel my hearing of tunes has improved a lot since I started trying to answer the questions.  I mean, what's the worst that's going to happen? You'll get something wrong,..... so what? Eventually you start to hear things better and that's got to be a bonus.

Cheers, Ned

I'll second that!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on December 03, 2016, 11:48:24 PM
I would definitely say that you learn more by having a go at the tunes rather than waiting for the answer.  Though it may not be obvious from some of the answers I provide, I feel my hearing of tunes has improved a lot since I started trying to answer the questions.  I mean, what's the worst that's going to happen? You'll get something wrong,..... so what? Eventually you start to hear things better and that's got to be a bonus.

Cheers, Ned
Right, and it is no shame to learn a song in the wrong tuning or position. If you have learned it, you have gained. And maybe made it more your own.
D
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 05, 2016, 10:29:28 AM
Hi all,
I have some more puzzlers for anyone who is interested.  The first is from Willie Ford, and is his "Santa Field Blues".  Here is his rendition:

https://youtu.be/6oTpRQwP6iQ

INTRO

Hey, hey, on the Santa Field
Hey, hey, on the Santa Field
When I leave the Southern, said I'm goin' on the Santa Field

"Operator, train must I ride?
Operator, train must I ride?"
"Don't make no difference, yes, since you can satisfy."

I'm sing this song, then I ain't gonna sing no more
Gonna sing this song, then I ain't gonna sing no more
Says, my babe done called me, and I swear I done got to go

Ain't gon' tell nobody what the Santa Fe has done for me
Ain't gonna tell nobody what the Santa Fe has done for me
Took away my good girl and come and got my used-to-be

Shine on, silver moon, shine on
Shine on, silver moon, shine on
Says, I know you'll be shinin' when I'm dead and gone

On the mountain, tried to keep my way
On the mountain, tried to keep my way
Said, the rocks and the gravel whupped me all in my face

I'm gwine, I'm gwine, said to wear you off my mind
I'm gwine, I'm gwine for to wear you off my mind
It keeps me worried and bothered all the time

If I had me, a Heaven of my own
If I had me, Heaven of my own
These brown-skinned women'd be settin' all around my throne

Got the same old fireman, the same old engineer
Got the same old fireman, the same old engineer
They took my babe, and they left me standing here

Edited 12/12 to pick up correction from davek
Edited 12/15 to pick up corrections from banjochris


The questions on "Santa Field Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Ford use to play the song?
   * Where did Willie Ford fret the signature lick with which he opens the song?

The second puzzler is John Dudley's "Cool Water Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/vCZyTIsU0bo

Oh, and I asked her for water and she gave me gasoline
I asked her for water, gave me gasoline
And I asked her for water, and she gave me gasoline, Lord, Lordy Lord

Cryin' Lord, now, and I wonder will I, ever get back home (Spoken:  It's worryin' me some!)
Cryin', Lord, I wonder, will I ever get back home, Lord, Lordy Lord

I asked the conductor, "Can I ride that blind?" (Spoken:  I was broke.)
"Son, buy your ticket, buy your ticket, 'cause this train ain't none of mine.
Son, buy your ticket, train ain't none of mine.
Better buy your ticket, buy your ticket, 'cause the train ain't none of mine, Lord, Lordy Lord."

I'm gon' sing this verse, now, ain't gon' sing no more
Just to keep outa trouble, well now I better go, Lord, Lordy Lord

The questions on "Cool Water Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did John Dudley use to play the song?
   * Where is John Dudley fretting in the bass the note he hits under the first line of each of his verses?

The third puzzler is Sonny Scott's "Try Me Man Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/yDMDaRltY8w

INTRO

Uh, Cherry Cola mama, here come your Try Me man
Cherry Cola mama, here come your Try Me man
I got a bucket of raspberries and a Orange Crush in my hand

Take me in your house, baby, give me some of your Cherry Cola syrup
Now, take me in your house, baby, and give me some of your Cherry Cola syrup
I'll just pour it in my iced Try Me, and see which one is the worst

Lord, I drink the Cherry Cola at a Try Me stand
Lord, I drink the Cherry Cola at a Try Me stand
Lord, I ain't crazy 'bout no Cherry Cola, because I'm a Try Me man

Some people carry Cherry Colas on that trip in the woods
Some people carry Cherry Colas on that trip in the woods
But I like our drink, partner, because they will do your body good

CODA

The questions on "Try Me Man Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Sonny Scott use to play the song?
   *  Where did Sonny Scott fret his IV7 chord in his opening solo?
   * Where did Sonny Scott fret the thumb roll he played in the bass at 2:29--2:32?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM on Thursday, December 8.  It is certainly not required or expected that people respond to every question.  It's fine to answer only one question if you wish, or as many as you'd care to answer.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on December 08, 2016, 10:44:34 AM
Willie Ford
Standard tuning, E position
Fretting an E chord and laying down the ring finger to fret the 2nd fret, of the third
(G) string. Rocking back and forth with that action while strumming. There may sometimes
be a hammer-on to from the open 3rd string to the 1st fret while striking the E chord
Approximate fingering below.
0 x x x x
0 0 2 0 x
1 1 2 1 1
2 2 2 2 2
2 2 x x 2
0 x x x x

John Dudley
Standard tuning, E position
Fretting the 4th fret of the 5th (A) string as he plays a IV chord at the start of each
verse.

Sonny Scott
Drop D tuning, tuned up or capoed up 1 fret
Playing in A position
IV chord played in the standard D7 position at the nut:
2
1
2
0
x
x

Thumb roll played from 4th fret of 6th string to open 4th string, then 4th fret of 6th
string to open 6th and 5th strings together.

cool songs, thanks John.

Dave
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 08, 2016, 01:08:31 PM
I'm with DaveK on the Willie Ford and John Dudley tunes, both in E standard. Willie Ford's fretting of the signature lick is pretty much what I was thinking.  Also, have John Dudley's fretting of the bass note as a C# on the 5th string.

Sonny Scott's "Try Me Man Blues" though I have out of A standard.  The thumb roll I'm just hearing the 6th string at the 2nd fret to the open 5th string.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 09, 2016, 10:02:18 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers on the Willie Ford, John Dudley and Sonny Scott puzzlers.  Come one, come all!  Pick just one question or song if you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on December 09, 2016, 12:21:30 PM
I'm going to attempt to maintain my unblemished record of wrong answers by proposing E standard position for Cool Drink of Water.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on December 10, 2016, 02:35:54 AM
For the Sonny Scott, I hear him playing in A, standard tuning, tuned or capoed up a fret.
In the opening part, I think he plays the IV, the D chord 4-2-3-2 and the bass roll sounds to me like sliding the 6th string first to second fret, hitting the open 4th string, a little strum on the D chord, then first to second fret of the the 6th string and open 5th, with a strum above. I may be imagining things, but he could be hinting at the major and then 7th chord, rocking from one to the other. (now to hide my head in my hands and wait for the right answer!)

Thanks for the great songs John ! 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on December 10, 2016, 06:37:34 AM
Hoping for more success than recently, having guitar to hand helps!

Playing positions

Willie Ford - Cross Note
John Dudley - E standard  - Why didn't Lomax record more of him?????
Mr.Scott - A standard
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 11, 2016, 10:04:49 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though all who intended to respond to the Willie Ford, John Dudley and Sonny Scott puzzlers have done so by now, so I'll post the answers.

For Willie Ford's "Santa Field Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning for the song was E position in standard tuning.  His signature lick could have been played out of E position, standard tuning, cross-note or EAEGBE tuning, but what he plays over his V chord could only be played out of E position standard tuning because he alternates his bass from the V note on the fifth string up to the minor third of the V chord on the fourth string, and the minor third of the V chord is the bVII note of the scale.  In E position, standard tuning, that bVII note of the scale is the open fourth string, whereas in cross-note and EAEGBE tunings, the fourth string is tuned to a I note.
   * For his signature lick, Willie Ford hit his first and third beats of the measure on the second fret of the fourth string with his thumb.  On beat two, he brushed the open third and second strings, doing a grace note hammer to the first fret of the third string with his index finger.  On beat four, he thumb-brushed the open second string and the third string at the second fret, fretting it with his ring finger, then quickly pulling off to the index finger at the first fret of the third string. He intersperses index finger brush strokes on the the open first and second strings on the off beats of the signature lick.  This is very close to what Dave described.

For John Dudley's "Cool Water Blues":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!
   * In the first line of each verse, John Dudley fretted the fourth fret of the fifth string, as Dave and Old Man Ned had it--well done!

I think Phil's question as to why Lomax didn't record more titles by John Dudley is a good one.  Everything I've heard that Dudley recorded was stellar.  This song is a cover of Tommy Johnson's "Cool Drink of Water Blues", and it just seems spectacular to me, in many ways stronger and with more "juice" than Tommy Johnson's own version of the song.  What heavy time--whew!  Listen to the fill he plays from :21--:27; it doesn't get much better than that.

For Sonny Scott's "Try Me Man Blues":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning.  Since Sonny Scott never hits a D note lower in pitch than the open fourth string, there doesn't appear to be any reason to think he was playing in dropped-D tuning.
   * Sonny Scott's IV7 chord in his opening solo is a regular old D7 at the base of the neck on the first three strings, going form the third to the first string, 2-1-2.
   * The thumb roll Sonny Scott hits in the bass from 2:29-2:32 is from the second fret of the sixth string to the open fifth string, as Old Man Ned and Joe Paul had it.  Dave had the same notes, but put the song in dropped-D tuning, and the song could certainly be played there if one wanted to access a low root for the IV chord.

I found the lyrics to this song fascinating.  Every so often, you hear an old Blues lyric, and it becomes apparent from the context that some bygone product name is being cited in the lyrics.  I thought this was the case with Try Me, and so I did a Google search for Try Me soft drink and came up with the following link for any of you who might be interested:  http://www.try-me.org/history .  Another example of this sort of thing is in Skip James' "Drunken Spree", when he sings "Hand me down my Jubilee and all my dirty clothes".  Turns out Jubilee was a laundry detergent (and may still be).

Thanks to all who participated and it's neat to see more folks participating.  Thanks for joining in!  I hope you enjoyed the songs, and I will look for more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 11, 2016, 03:41:00 PM
Hi all,
I've been trying to transcribe Willie Ford's lyrics to "Santa Field Blues", at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99441#msg99441 , and I'm not sure about a couple of places and would really appreciate some help if anyone cares to give the song a listen.  Thanks very much for any help.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on December 11, 2016, 08:50:27 PM
Sounds like he sings "I'm sittin' here counting" to me. Doesn't make a lot of sense, except perhaps as, I'm counting my money made busking, not singing any more.

Dave
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Bunker Hill on December 11, 2016, 09:21:18 PM
Hi all,
For John Dudley's "Cool Water Blues":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!
   * In the first line of each verse, John Dudley fretted the fourth fret of the fifth string, as Dave and Old Man Ned had it--well done!

I think Phil's question as to why Lomax didn't record more titles by John Dudley is a good one.  Everything I've heard that Dudley recorded was stellar.  This song is a cover of Tommy Johnson's "Cool Drink of Water Blues", and it just seems spectacular to me, in many ways stronger and with more "juice" than Tommy Johnson's own version of the song.  What heavy time--whew!  Listen to the fill he plays from :21--:27; it doesn't get much better than that.

All best,
Johnm   

FWIW in the 70s John Cowley unearthed a very short interview with John Dudley held at the LoC. Is it possible that this is it? Or have you folk already discussed this? I'm so out of touch.......

http://clio.lib.olemiss.edu/cdm/ref/collection/lomax/id/2063
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on December 12, 2016, 05:25:37 AM
Thanks for your comments on Santa Fe John. I couldn't hear that bass move until I played back through a speaker rather than my computer.

I always find the analyses in the is thread fascinating and well worth putting the head above the parapet for.
Best, Phil
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jpeters609 on December 12, 2016, 06:46:30 AM

FWIW in the 70s John Cowley unearthed a very short interview with John Dudley held at the LoC. Is it possible that this is it? Or have you folk already discussed this? I'm so out of touch.......


During the brief interview, Alan Lomax is asking Dudley where he learned these songs, etc., and Dudley replies that he learned them himself, so to speak. Dudley says they would sing these songs "out in the fields." Most interestingly, he says that he was actively playing as early as 1925 or 27 in Tunica. So we was certainly a contemporary of Patton, etc...

At that time, Lomax must have known precious little about Charley Patton or Tommy Johnson. If he had, he would surely have pursued this matter more thoroughly, as Dudley's "Clarksdale Mill Blues" sounds as if it were learned at Patton's knee. It is of course possible that Dudley was a contemporary of Patton; at the time of his recording (1959) he was supposedly 50 years old and serving the last months of his sentence. As it is, I am unaware of any additional investigation that Lomax (or anyone) did into the background of John Dudley. (In his very brief liner-note comments, Lomax states that Dudley seems to have been influenced by Blind Lemon Jefferson ? a truly flummoxing statement for anyone who has heard Charley Patton alongside Dudley's "Clarksdale Mill Blues"!)'

In Blues Unlimited 27 (November 1965), Dr. Ross recounts to Simon Napier the guitarists he knew around Tunica: "He went on to describe another such artist - a John Dillon, also from Tunica. He said Dillon was a 'bit wild, y'know. Killed a guy playing Georgia Skin .... he was off a farm out of Dundee, well they worked for him, Dillon and Johnny Jackson. Well this Jackson was a big gambler, always winnin' and Dillon didn't think he done it right. Got 7 years, but he's out now, I seen him. Now he was a guitarist, man he could PLAY!' Asked where Dillon was jailed he went on - 'he weren't jailed. Sent him to Parchman, y'know out there you work.' He thought Dillon would have been in Parchman from around 1956/57 and left about '63-64. As he was adamant about this, I wondered if this could be the 'John Dudley' recorded by Lomax in Parchman." (As written by Simon Napier)

Here is the original reel-to-reel box from Lomax's recording of Dudley in Parchman in '59. Note the writing: "Knew Robt. + Son House, Muddy Waters. Played for country dances." From research.culturalequity.org
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 12, 2016, 06:59:39 AM
Thanks, Dave, for the help with the lyrics on "Santa Field Blues".  Re-listening, "counting" does sound like the missing word, so I've made the change.  Thanks!  Like you said, he could have been counting busking earnings or maybe counting train cars, or who knows, but the sound is sure right.
Thanks also to Alan and Jeff for the additional information on John Dudley.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 14, 2016, 06:24:23 PM
Hi all,
I have a new set of puzzlers for folks who are interested.  The first one is Yank Rachell's "38 Pistol Blues", on which he was joined by Sonny Boy Williamson 1 on harmonica and a washboard player (Amanda Sortier?).  Here is the track:

https://youtu.be/ZKp2VKnP4_4

INTRO

Now run and get my .38 pistol, my woman ridin' 'round, a V-8 Ford
Now run and get my .38 pistol, you know my woman ridin' 'round, a V-8 Ford
Well, that must've been my woman gettin' away a while ago, I heard somebody, Lord, at my back door

You know, I had a little trouble, 'way down, 'bout Tom Wilson's place
You know, I had a little trouble, 'way down, 'bout Tom Wilson place (Spoken, Sonny Boy: You better have thought about them people. They won't let you come back there no more.)
You know, it was just on this side of the road, it was right down below Mays' place (Spoken, Yank:  Lord, have mercy!)

Now, I got a sweet little sweet thing, Sonny Boy, lives down on Lover's Lane (Spoken, Sonny Boy:  Oh, what you mean?  Tell me what you mean!)
Lord, I got a sweet little thing, and that woman lives down on Lover's Lane
You know, I'm so crazy about that woman, Lord, I'm scared to call that woman's name (Spoken, Sonny Boy: Yank, let me play one for you, you know I'm gonna do the best I can, watch!  (Spoken, Yank:  Do the best you can.)

HARMONICA SOLO

That's the reason I tote my .38 pistol, that's the reason I carries it every day (Spoken, Sonny Boy:  Oh, you must to be goin' out bear huntin' or something or other.)  (Spoken, Yank:  I can do this thing now.)
That's the reason I carry my .38 pistol, that's the reason I carries it every day (Spoken, Sonny Boy:  I'm glad I didn't meet you when you had it!)
But if I catch my baby below Tom Wilson again, Lord, somebody's sure gonna pay the way

The questions on "38 Pistol Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Yank Rachell use to play the song?
   * Where did Yank fret the triplets he brushes in the treble from :52--:54?

The second puzzler is J B Lenoir's "Remove This Rope", from his album "Alabama Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/kScRXtEMxog

INTRO

Remove this rope from 'round my neck, it is almost 'bout to choke me to death
Remove this rope from 'round my neck, it is almost 'bout to choke me to death
Oh Lord, you know, you know I need me some rest

I have walked, and I've walked, 'til my feet is wet with sweat and full of soil
I have walked, and I walk, 'til my feet is wet with sweat and full of soil
Hungry and I haven't found no rest, and you know I'm a-still walkin' yet

I watch the sun rise in the mornin' in the East, I talks to my Father, He talks back at me
I watch the sun rise in the mornin', I talks to my Father, He talks back at me
He said, "Don't worry, J B, I will rise up and Nature will set you free."

I broke down and cried, I know now the sun won't have heard my prayer
I broke down and cried, I know now the sun won't have heard my prayer
He said, "Dry them eyes, 'cause your Gardener is by your side."

The questions on "Remove This Rope" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did J B Lenoir use to play the song?
   * Where did J B Lenoir fret his signature lick, which he uses to open the song?
   * Where did J B Lenoir fret what he plays behind his IV chord, from :24--:28?

The third puzzler is from Walter Roland and is his "Overall Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/6-4yD3nIq2o

INTRO SOLO

Says, mmm, baby, mmmm, baby, oh
Says, mmm, baby, mmmm, baby, oh
Says, you know the way you treat me, you act like you don't want me 'round you no more

For your part, woman, 'clare I done quit you now
I says, for your part, woman, 'clare I done quit you now
Just because I don't like no, evil woman nohow

Says, now, now, woman, let's shake hand in hand
Says, now, now, now, woman, let's shake good hand in hand
'Cause you know I'm goin' back to my woman, you better get you a man

For you know, wearin' overhalls, sure is against my health
Mmmm, baby, Lord, say it is against my health
And say, little mama, you better get you somebody else

SOLO

Edited 12/22 to pick up correction from Prof Scratchy

The questions on "Overall Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Walter Roland use to play the lead guitar part on the song?
   * Where is the run fretted that Walter Roland played over his IV chord from :07--:09?
   * Extra credit--what playing position/tuning did the under-recorded seconding guitarist (Sonny Scott?) use to play his guitar part?

As always, please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers.  Please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday, December 17.  And please don't feel you have to respond to all of the puzzlers or all of the questions on any given puzzler.  Participate to the extent that feels comfortable for you.  Thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on December 15, 2016, 07:43:29 PM
Thanks, Dave, for the help with the lyrics on "Santa Field Blues".  Re-listening, "counting" does sound like the missing word, so I've made the change.  Thanks!  Like you said, he could have been counting busking earnings or maybe counting train cars, or who knows, but the sound is sure right.
Thanks also to Alan and Jeff for the additional information on John Dudley.
All best,
Johnm

Pretty sure he's singing "I'll sing this song and I ain't gonna sing no more" and "gonna sing..." in those lines in "Santa Field." He sings so loud there's some distortion there.

Also the mountain verse is similar to one Fred McDowell used to sing:
On the mountain, tryin' to keep my way
Say the rocks and the gravel whupped me all in my face.

Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 15, 2016, 08:47:24 PM
Thanks very much for the help, Chris.  I re-listened several times, and I think you're suggestions are pretty much right on so I made the changes.  The one difference I was hearing in re-listening  was in the singing verse--I think he sings
   . . . THEN I ain't gonna sing no more
All best,
John
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on December 17, 2016, 08:42:46 AM
The questions on "Overall Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Walter Roland use to play the lead guitar part on the song?

I"ll say C position capoed at the 4th fret.  My thinking is that since it seems to be in E, the logical positions would be E,  D, or C; G and A not being practical.  I'm not that conversant in vestapol, so didn't try that one.

   * Where is the run fretted that Walter Roland played over his IV chord from :07--:09?
Still working on that...
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 18, 2016, 12:43:53 PM
For "38 Pistol Blues" I'm going for G standard as the playing position/tuning that Yank Rachell used and fretting the triplets brushes from :52--:54 on the first and second strings, first and third frets respectively.

For "Remove This Rope" I'm hearing out of D, dropped D tuning as I'm pretty sure I'm hearing a low D on the 6th string in places.

His signature lick, which he uses to open the song, I've come up with:
-----------------2-3-5
--------------3-------
2-4-4-2-2-4---------
0-0-0-0-0-0---------
----------------------
----------------------
and where J B Lenoir frets what he plays behind his IV chord, from :24--:28, as something along the lines of:
---------------
---------------
---3--5-3-----
-5--5-----5-3-
----------------
---------------5
ending on the G on the lowered 6th string.

For "Overall Blues" I agree with Eric, playing out of C position with the capo up the neck so it's sounding in E
The run played over his IV chord from :07--:09 I'm hearing as:
------3-1---------
---1------4-3-1--
-2---------------2
-------------------
-------------------
-------------------
relative to the capo.

Sonny Scott's playing position/tuning I'm thinking is E standard played down around the first fret (first position?).  This is based on his wee bass run near the end of the tune.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on December 18, 2016, 02:22:48 PM
For Overall Blues, I had this:
------3-1---0-----
---1------3----1--
-2----------------2
-------------------
-------------------
-------------------

But I think Old Man Ned is closer to the mark.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 19, 2016, 10:29:23 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Yank Rachell, J B Lenoir and Walter Roland puzzlers?  Come one, come all--answer just one question or all, as you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 20, 2016, 05:18:57 AM
Still limited in what I can do with guitar in hand, but I'll have a go at the keys etc! I'm going to agree with everyone that Yank is in G standard, I'm going to say drop D for JB, and (going out on a limb -encased in plaster) DGDGBE capoed at the second fret for Walter, with Sonny in E standard. Ever hopeful ....
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 21, 2016, 12:00:09 PM
Hi all,
I think that everyone who intended to respond to the Yank Rachell, J B Lenoir and Walter Roland puzzlers has done so, so I'll post the answers:

For Yank Rachell's "38 Pistol Blues":
   * Yank's playing position was G position in standard tuning, which was a favorite playing position for him back on the early recordings on which he played guitar, like this one or "Squeaky Work Bench Blues", one of his duets with Dan Smith.  Congratulations to Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy, who had it right.
   * For the brushed triplets at :52--:54, Yank was fretting the third fret of the third and second strings and the first fret of the first string.  If you look at those three notes, they form a Bb major chord, going from the third to the first string, Root-3-5, but since they're played over a G chord, the sound ends up being a very dark Gm7.  I first heard this same voicing, though done one whole step higher, in the key of A, by Snooks Eaglin, on his recording of "Come Back, Baby" on the old "New Orleans Streetsinger" album on Folkways, but Yank's use of the voicing pre-dates Snooks' use of it.

For J B Lenoir's "Remove This Rope":
   * His playing position was D position in dropped-D tuning, as Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy had it--well done!
   * J B Lenoir fretted his signature lick as follows:  (I think the clip on youtube omits the first brushed note of his opening triplet.)  On beat one, he brushes a triplet with his thumb, hitting the open fourth string, the fourth fret of the third string and the third fret of the second string.  On beat two, he brushes the same three strings in another triplet, hitting the open fourth string, the second fret of the third string and the first fret of the second string.  On beat three, he plays another triplet, brushing the open fourth string, fourth fret of the third string and third fret of the second string on the first note, hitting the open sixth string on the second note, and pinching the open sixth string with the third fret of the second string on the third note of the triplet.  On beat four, he plays a final triplet, pinching the open sixth string with a slide into the second fret of the first string on the first note of the triplet, hitting the open sixth string and third fret of the first string on the second note of the triplet, and pinching the open sixth string and fifth fret of the first string on the final note of the triplet.  Old Man Ned had the tail end of the lick right on.
   * Behind his IV chord, at :24--:28, J B Lenoir played the following:  He first hits the fourth string, fifth fret and then brushes the fifth fret of the third and second strings, resolving them downward to the fourth fret of the third string and third fret of the second string.  He then plays a nifty bass run, hammering from the third to the fifth fret on the fifth string, going from the third fret of the fourth string back to the fifth fret of the sixth string, and then playing a descending run going from the fifth fret of the fourth string to the third fret of the fourth string, then to the fifth fret of the fifth string and third fret of the fifth string, concluding the run at the fifth fret of the sixth string.  When J B Lenoir goes from 5-5-5 on the fourth, third and second strings to 5-4-3 on the fourth, third and second strings at the beginning of the phrase, that 5-5-5 is a C chord, which he treats as a IV of the IV chord, G, that he resolves it into--it's a great sound!

For Walter Roland's "Overall Blues":
   * His playing position, was C position in standard tuning, as Eric and Old Man Ned had it--well done!
   * The run Walter Roland played over his IV chord, from :07--:09 was fretted as follows:  On the + of beat four in the fourth bar of the form, he played the open third string.  On 1 +, he went from the second fret of the third string to the third fret of the first string.  On 2 +, he went from the first fret of the first string to the fourth fret of the second string.  On 3 +, he went from the third fret of the second string to the first fret of the second string.  On beat four, he resolved the run to the second fret of the third string, and on the + of beat four he struck the open third string to start the run again.  For a guy who was known primarily as a pianist, he sure was a spiffy guitar player!
   * I believe the seconding guitarist, Sonny Scott (or whoever it was if it wasn't Sonny Scott) was playing out of G position in standard tuning, but tuned quite low.  He keeps walking chromatically down from the fifth of the I chord to its third, which in G position would involve going from the open fourth string down the fifth string from its fourth fret to the third fret and then the second fret.  He also could have been playing out of F position in standard tuning, where the same run would sit very easily, walking from the third fret of the fifth string chromatically to the open fifth string.  I'm a little dubious that Sonny Scott played in F at all, based on his solo recordings, but he may have done so..

Thanks to Eric, Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy for participating, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I think I will hold off posting any new puzzlers until after the New Year, since the holiday season is such a busy time for most people.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 21, 2016, 04:31:24 PM
Hi all,
I have been working on transcribing the lyrics from the most recent set of puzzlers and I'm stuck on a word in the second verse of Walter Roland's "Overall Blues".  I sure would appreciate some help.  You can listen to the track at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg99518#msg99518 .  Thanks for any assistance.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 22, 2016, 02:02:35 AM
On my first hearing of verse two, I thought he sang 'You a ill-starred woman' (which would make sense of the tag line). But now I hear 'For your part, woman' (which makes less sense)!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 22, 2016, 06:38:56 AM
Thanks very much for the help, Professor.  After re-listening, I think you nailed it with "For your part, woman", and I have made the change.  I think in this context Walter Roland is saying, "As for you," . . . .  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 06, 2017, 09:19:34 AM
Hi all,
I expect we're all over the holidays by now, so I thought I'd post some new puzzlers.  To ease back into it, for these first three puzzlers, I will ask only the playing position/tuning the player used to perform the song.  The first two songs have already been posted on the Weenie site elsewhere.  A few months back, evan posted Roger "Burn Down" Garnett playing "Lighthouse Blues".  Here it is again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1b_Nc5W6KM

My Mama and I talked to my faro the whole night long
My Mama and I talked to my faro the whole night long
I was tryin' to teach her and show her, now which-a-way, right from wrong

My faro got teeth like a lighthouse on the sea
My faro got teeth like a lighthouse on the sea
Every time she smiles, the light all over me

I'm gon' write me a letter, and mail it in the air
I'm gonna write me a letter, gon' mail it in the air
I'm gonna tell my faro, I'm on the road somewhere

I stopped still and listened, I heard somebody callin' me
I stopped still and listened, I heard somebody callin' me
But it wasn't my regular, but my old-time used-to-be

SOLO

The question on "Lighthouse Blues" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Roger Garnett use to play the song?

Just a couple of days ago, Lastfirstface posted a great find, Eddie Edinborough and his New Orleans Wild Cats doing "Wild Cat's Ball", featuring Bobby Leecan on guitar.  Here is the cut again:

https://youtu.be/Hlmg9fOZ88g

The question on "Wild Cat's Ball" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Bobby Leecan use to play the song?

The third song is "Hole In The Wall", by L. C. Williams, featuring a youthful Lightnin' Hopkins on guitar.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/hkCF-kk16Y0

INTRO

My baby went out last night and got drunk, came home raisin' sand,
She had the nerve enough to tell me, "L. C., I'm find me a brand new man."
REFRAIN:  She was at a hole in the wall, my baby ain't goin' to the hole in the wall no more
Yes, you know she's a sweet little girl, but I'm gonna have to let her go

Yes, you know my baby a little funny thing, goin' something like a little coach here
But boy, when she startin' to rollin', she roll just like a wagon wheel
REFRAIN:  She was at a hole in the wall, my baby ain't goin' to the hole in the wall no more
Yes, you know she's a sweet little girl, but I'm gonna have to let her go

SOLO

Yes, you know I were walkin' down darlin' Main, and I heard somebody squall
You know, I looked in Main, there was, she was at the hole in the wall, man
REFRAIN:  Man, ain't goin', my baby ain't goin' to the hole in the wall no more
Yes, you know she's a sweet little girl, but I'm gonna have to let her go

SOLO 

The question on "Hole In The Wall" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lightnin' Hopkins use to play the song?

As always, please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers.  Please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday morning, January 9.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm



 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 08, 2017, 06:46:27 AM
In for a penny, in for a pound as no-one else is having a punt!

Lighthouse, which sounds very like Barbecue Bob - Spanish
Booby Leecan - F standard
Lightnin' - A standard
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 09, 2017, 09:07:43 AM
Agree with blueshome for the first two, but I'll say Drop D (playing in A) for the Lightnin' one!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 10, 2017, 08:57:01 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Roger Garnett, Bobby Leecan and Lightnin' Hopkins puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 10, 2017, 11:34:11 AM
I'm also hearing Roger Garnett's "Lighthouse Blues" in open G and
Booby Leecan "Wild Cat's Ball in F standard
Lightnin' Hopkins'"Hole in the Wall" , I'm also going for A standard in Dropped D.  I've convinced myself I'm hearing a D on the open 6th string between 10-12secs.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on January 10, 2017, 01:30:54 PM
Have to agree on the Spanish, F and drop D in A on these.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MartyW on January 11, 2017, 06:49:01 AM
Spanish,  F position , and drop d tuning in key of A respectively.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 12, 2017, 08:50:16 AM
Hi all,
I think everyone who wished to respond to the Roger Garnett, Bobby Leecan and Lightnin' Hopkins puzzlers has done so by now, and since the last four responders have been in agreement as to the playing positions/tunings of the different pieces, I'll post the answers now.

For Roger "Burn Down" Garnett's "Lighthouse Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was Spanish tuning as everyone who responded had it--well done!  This piece reminds me a little bit of a "Shortstuff" Macon song that was posted here recently, in that it doesn't conform to any of the commonly encountered blues forms but is nonetheless so clearly and obviously a blues, in a very natural and appealing way.  Roger Garnett had a beautiful tone on the instrument and he was really in tune, which never hurts.

For Bobby Leecan's playing on Eddie Edinborough and his New Orleans Wild Cats' "Wild Cat's Ball":
   * His playing position/tuning was F position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--well done again!  Bobby Leecan is one of those rare players who somewhat specialized in playing in F, much like Walter Coleman/Kid Cole and whichever of Pigmeat Pete and Catjuice Charlie played guitar.  Bobby Leecan's time had such a great rhythmic snap to it.

For Lightnin' Hopkins' playing on L. C. Williams' "Hole In The Wall":
   * His playing position was A position in Dropped-D tuning.  Whenever I hear Lightnin's playing on his early recordings, I'm reminded of how technically he could play.  He really was a spectacular player.  In his later years, he perhaps cut a less wide swathe, but he was always a supreme groover and had the capacity for successfully doing what he was trying to do.

Thanks to all who responded, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 17, 2017, 09:23:37 AM
Hi all,
I have three new puzzlers for those of you who are interested, and they all focus on Big Bill Broonzy performances.  I'm guilty sometimes of forgetting about Big Bill, but he was such a strong player and singer and recorded with such variety over the course of his career that I'd be better off keeping him in mind and returning to his music more often.  The first of Big Bill's songs we'll look at is his "Mistreatin' Mama Blues".  Here is his performance of it:

https://youtu.be/nDut60pKF2Y

INTRO SOLO

Whyn't you tell me, lovin' mama, baby, what have I done so wrong?
Whyn't you tell me, lovin' mama, baby, what have I done so wrong?
Lord, you treat me just like some man you never known

Says, you gwonna call me some morning, mama, Lord, and I'll be gone
You gwonna call me some old morning, mama, Lord, and I'll be gone
Lord, and I know you're gwonna miss me from rolling in your arms

I have got something to tell you, mama, please keep it to yourself
Baby, I got something to tell you, mama, please keep it to yourself
Lord, if I can't have you, baby, I don't want nobodys else

SOLO

Lord, I feel so worried, mama, I don't know what to do
Lord, I feel so worried, babe, I don't know what to do
Lord, my wife's done quit me, my Lord, and my sweetie, too

Babe, but that's all right, mama, baby, that's all right for you
Mama, that's all right, baby, mama, that's all right for you
You gwonna want me some morning, Lord, and I won't want you

Now, baby, don't mistreat me 'cause I'm a motherless child
Now, mama, don't mistreat me 'cause I'm a motherless child
Lord, you may be in my same shape, baby, someday, bye and bye

The questions on "Mistreatin' Mama Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Big Bill use to play the song?
   * Melodically and in the accompaniment, "Mistreatin' Mama Blues" is essentially a transposition to a different key of what other song that Big Bill recorded earlier?

The second song is Big Bill's performance of "I Can't Be Satisfied", on which he was joined by Frank Brasswell (sometimes called Frank Brassens) on second guitar.  There is a really pristine version of this on the 2017 Blues Images calendar CD.  Here is the duo's performance:

https://youtu.be/w6OtxBSPtx8

INTRO SOLO

Now, listen here, baby, tell you what I want you to do
Want you treat me, mama, like I do you
REFRAIN: Lord, and I can't be satisfied, and I can't be satisfied
And I can't mistreat you, not to please nobody's mind

Now, I love my sweetie, tell you the reason why
My baby got something that satisfies my mind
REFRAIN: Lord, and I can't be satisfied, and I can't be satisfied
And I can't mistreat her, not to please nobody's mind

Lord, starvation's in my kitchen, the rent sign's on my door
My good girl told me she can't use me no more
REFRAIN: Lord, and I can't be satisfied, and I can't be satisfied
And I can't mistreat her, not to please nobody's mind

SOLO

I'm leakin' at the heart, bleedin' at the nose
My good girl told me she can't use me no more
REFRAIN: Now, and I can't be satisfied, and I can't be satisfied
And I can't mistreat her, not to please nobody's mind

SOLO

Got on my high-cut stockin's , my low-cut shoes,
Mama, I ain't frettin' now and I sure can't lose
REFRAIN: Lord, I can't be satisfied, and I can't be satisfied
And I can't mistreat that woman, not to please nobody's mind

Now, look-a-here, boys, ain't this rich?
I gotta pay my wife for everything I get
REFRAIN: Lord, and I can't be satisfied, and I can't be satisfied
And I can't mistreat her, not to please nobody's mind

The questions on "I Can't Be Satisfied" are:
   * What playing position/tuning were the two guitarists playing out of?
   * Where are the two tremolo double stops that open the rendition fretted?
   * Where is the bass run fretted that is played in the eleventh bar of the opening solo, from :15--17?

The third song is "Starvation Blues", a 1934 version recorded with a pianist.  Here is the duo's performance:

https://youtu.be/szFBcb-Xhbo

INTRO SOLO

Starvation in my kitchen, rent sign on my door
Starvation in my kitchen, the rent sign on my door
If my luck don't change, baby, can't stay 'round my home no more

You can mistreat me 'cause I'm down, mama, that's all right for you
You can mistreat me 'cause I'm down, baby, that's all right for you
Someday you goin' to be down, baby, your friends gon' mistreat you, too

When I had my money, my doorbell rung every day
When I had my money, my doorbell rung every day
So now I ain't got no money, my friends goes the other way

SOLO

Starvation here, starvation everywhere I go
Mama, there's starvation here, starvation everywhere I go
Look like, 'cause I ain't got no money, I'm the only man starvation know

When you see a little black wagon, come rollin' to your door
When you see a little black wagon, come rollin' to your door
Mama, you don't need no tellin', better find some place to go

The questions on "Starvation Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Big Bill use to play the song?
   * How did Big Bill fret the V7 chord he plays in the opening solo from :17--:19?
   * Where di Big Bill fret his IV chord, from 1:07--1:11?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers prior to 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, January 19.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 19, 2017, 12:28:59 PM
I've only had chance to have a go at "I Can't Be Satisfied" and "Starvation Blues" from Big Bill's trio of tunes.  In reverse order:
Starvation Blues I'm hearing out of A standard
The V7 chord he plays in the opening solo from :17--:1 I'm thinking 1 of 2 options
1: 5th str 2nd fret; 4th str open; 3rd str 1st fret; 2nd str 3rd fret; 1st str 4th fret & open
2: 5th str 7th fret; 4th str 6th fret; 3rd str 7th fret; 2nd str 5th fret; 1st str 4th fret
but I'll go with the first. And Big Bill fretting his IV chord, from 1:07--1:11 at the 1st str 5th fret and 2nd str 7th fret.

I Can't be satisfied I'm hearing in E standard.
The two tremolo double stops I'm hearing at the 2nd str 9th fret; 1st str 7th fret and a D shape played at the 4th fret giving an E.
This is what I have of the bass run played in the eleventh bar of the opening solo, from :15--17?
--------------------------------
--------------------------------
------0-------------------------
---2----4--2------------------2
2--------------4p2--2--4--4--
but I think this may be wide of the mark or at best an approximation of something a bit more subtle.

All the best...
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 20, 2017, 08:53:17 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers on the Big Bill Broonzy puzzlers?  Come one, come all, answer one or as many of them as you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 20, 2017, 12:38:52 PM
Mistreating Mama is a clone of How do You Want it Done. I believe it's played out of G standard capoed up a ways..
Can't be Satisfied - D standard. Tuned sharp. Tremolo run on 1string 5, 2nd string 7.
Starvation Blues - A standard.I'm with Old Man Ned's 1st option for the V chord.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on January 20, 2017, 01:01:31 PM
"Mistreating Mama" is played out of C standard, not G, but otherwise is indeed very similar to "How You Want It Done?"

"I Can't Be Satisfied" both guitarists are playing out of D standard, and the tremolo is as Ned has it, just two frets lower. Bill flat picks and Frank Brasswell plays a fairly simple fingerpicked accompaniment.
The bass run at the end is an ascending chromatic run played on the E string -- starting with a walk down 2-1-0 to the open E string -- followed by a couple of in-the-scale runs on the A string up to the open D string. This is one of my all-time favorite Broonzy numbers.

"Starvation" I agree with everything that's been said so far.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 23, 2017, 09:09:51 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who wanted to respond to the Big Bill Broonzy puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.

For "Mistreating Mama":
   * His playing position/tuning was C position in standard tuning as banjochris had it.
   * The song, musically, is essentially a transposed version of "How Do You Want It Done?", as blueshome and banjochris noted.  The earlier song was flat-picked out of the G position in standard tuning.

For "I Can't Be Satisfied":
   * The playing position/tuning for both guitarists was D position in standard tuning, as blueshome and banjochris had it.
   * The double stops with which Bill Broonzy opened the song were fretted at the fifth fret of the first string and sixth fret (bent) of the second string, resolving down to the second fret of the first string and the third fret (unbent) of the second string.  It seems possible that Broonzy simply moved his D position up the neck three frets for the first double stop and returned it to its position at the base of the neck for the second double stop.  Alternatively, he may have just fretted the first two strings.
   * The run that Bill Broonzy played in the eleventh bar of the open solo goes like this:  On 1 +, Broonzy went from the open fourth string to the third fret of the fourth string.  On beat two, he played a triplet, pulling off from the second fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string and then resolving down to the second fret of the fifth string.  On 3 +, he struck the open fifth string twice.  On 4 +, he went from the second fret of the fifth string to the fourth fret of the fifth string.  It's a pretty spiffy run.

For "Starvation Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was A position in standard tuning as all who responded had it--well done!
   * His V7 chord in his opening solo, E7, was fretted just as Old Man Ned described it in his first option.  0-2-0-1-3-0, with the first string also being fretted at the fourth fret.
   * Big Bill fretted his IV chord, from 1:07--1:11 as Old Man Ned had it, as well, 7-5 on the second string going to the first string, while occasionally also fretting the bent eighth fret of the first string.  It's a D fingering that John Hurt and Buddy Moss both especially liked and used a lot, too.
Big Bill also recorded an altogether different "Starvation Blues" which I'm sure a number of you are familiar with that he played out of E position in standard tuning.

I wanted to feature Big Bill's flat-picking because it's a technique at which he excelled, and which he used a lot when playing with pianists in the '30s and '40s, I think.  I think the use of a flat pick in blues guitar has been relatively unexamined, and there are plenty of instances, particularly in back-up guitar, where I think it works especially well.

Thanks to Old Man Ned, blueshome and banjochris for participating, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I will look for some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 24, 2017, 06:48:27 PM
Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone knew who the pianist was who accompanied Big Bill on "Starvation Blues" in the most recent puzzler.  Thanks for any help with this.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on January 24, 2017, 08:25:50 PM
John,

No joy from DGR; piano noted as unknown.  Black Bob was was noted as prob. on piano on his next sessions but the those sessions weeks later.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 24, 2017, 10:12:32 PM
Thanks for giving it a shot, Eric.  I know Big Bill recorded with Black Bob a fair amount, but I'm not familiar enough with his playing to venture a probable ID of him based just on the sound of the playing.  Nothing wrong with putting "unknown pianist" in Weeniepedia!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 30, 2017, 12:43:24 PM
Hi all,
It's been a while since I posted some new puzzlers.  The first one I'd like to do this time is from Snooks Eaglin, and is his rendition of "I Must See Jesus".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/av3t69R0eoc

INTRO

I have heard so much of Jesus,
He's the Man of Galilee. 
How He left His home in Glory,
Just to set us sinners free. 
So I decided that I'll follow
In His footsteps, all the way. 
Whoa, I must, I must see Jesus
For myself again.

I must, I must see Jesus
For myself someday

I'm gonna tell Him 'bout my trouble
As it goes down through the years
Ooo, so I decided that I will follow
In His footsteps all the way,
Mmm, I must, I must see Jesus
For myself someday

I must, I must see Jesus
For myself someday

I'm gonna tell Him 'bout my trouble
As I go down through the years
So I decided that I will follow
In His footsteps all the way
Whoa, I must, I must see Jesus
For myself someday
 
The questions on "I Must See Jesus" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Snooks Eaglin use to play the song?
   * What are the first seven chords that Snooks plays in his intro, named relative to his playing position?
   * What meter/time signature does Snooks use to play "I Must See Jesus"?

The second puzzler is from Willie (not William) Moore, and it is his version of "Goin' Away To Leave You", taken from the Flyright album, "Another Man Done Gone".  Here is Willie Moore's performance:

https://youtu.be/tshuUhx40po

INTRO SOLO

Goin' away to leave you, just to wear you off my mind
Goin' away to leave you, just to wear you off my mind
Leavin' here walkin', holdin' my hands and cryin'

Baby, why did you leave me, tell me why did you go away?
Tell me, why did you leave me, tell me, why you go away?
Lord, you leave me here worried with my poor heart to stay

SOLO

Lord, it won't be long, gal, before I'll be gone
Lord, it won't be long, gal, before I'll be gone
Lord, I'm just hangin' around, try to hang on (Spoken:  That's it)

The questions on "Goin' Away To Leave You" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Moore use to play the song?
   * Where did Willie Moore fret his IV chord from :12--:16?
   
The third puzzler is from Joe Callicott, his version of "Lost My Money In Jim Kinnane's"  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/hU2mrrSE5Fw

(Spoken:  You get out of here!)

INTRO SOLO

I lost my money in the Jim Kinnane
I lost my money in the Jim Kinnane

Well, the big black nigger done stole it all
And he don't even, to want me to squall

Well, I lost my money in the Jim Kinnane
Everyone, people ask me to hand them their hands

Uh, what's the matter now?
Tryin' to quit me, quit me and you don't know how

Well, I'm goin' to the station goin' hang up my sign
Gonna flag that train if he's on the blind

Well, I walked that road and I walked it slow
I'm gon' walk it this time and never walk it no more

And I walked and I walked 'til I got to the door
Well, I told 'em my name was Joe-Joe-Joe

Well, I lost my money in Jim Kinnane's
Well, I let you know that I was to blame

Well, I shot my dice, and I shot 'em twice
Pull up the .45, they want to take my wife

Well, I danced by the guy that want to buy my wife
Well, how can I pay 'im when he totin' a .45?

I mmmmmmm, got to go
Well, mmmmmmm, got to go

Well, they invite me kindly down and put me out the door
And the one thing, baby, ain't gonna do it no more

SOLO

Well, I'm gettin' on out, ain't gonna raise no fuss
Well, I tried to do right, and then I know my stuff

Well, I goin' up the hill and the singletree broke
Well, they come to find out it was the wagon spoke

Well-a, you take Sal and I'll take Sue
I'll tell you just what a party we'll do

Got me mean, treat me mean
Treat me mean, treat me mean

Treat me mean, treat me mean

Well, they give me my meals, my house ain't never clean,
Treat me mean

Well, I'm goin' down the hill and keep from fall
Don't you never think, partner, a woman love you a' 'tall

When you come to find out, she got someone in your stall
On the out days, partner, say she's pitchin' a ball

Treat me mean, treat me mean
Treat me mean, baby, treat me mean

Treat me mean, baby, treat me mean
Doin' me wrong, baby, you're doin' me wrong

Well, I love you, any way you do
Well I'm tryin' to make you love me, break my back in two

Well, there's bound to be something wrong wit' you
I lost my money in Jim Kinnane
Well, I lost my money in Jim Kinnane

The questions on "Lost My Money In Jim Kinnane's" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Joe Callicott use to play the song?
   * Where did Joe fret what he plays from :38--:44?
   * What chord that normally appears in a blues is missing from "Lost My Money In Jim Kinnane's"?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, February 2.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the performances.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 03, 2017, 04:05:42 AM
I?m very uncertain about the Snooks one but here goes:


The questions on "I Must See Jesus" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Snooks Eaglin use to play the song? - C standard on a 12 string
   * What are the first seven chords that Snooks plays in his intro, named relative to his playing position? C C7 F Fm C Am G7
   * What meter/time signature does Snooks use to play "I Must See Jesus"? 3/4?


The questions on "Goin' Away To Leave You" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Moore use to play the song? E tuned low
   * Where did Willie Moore fret his IV chord from :12--:16?  x5x650
   

The questions on "Lost My Money In Jim Kinnane's" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Joe Callicott use to play the song? - G standard
   * Where did Joe fret what he plays from :38--:44? - He moves his first position G shape up to the 7th fret and rocks back to 5th fret - he does this four times
   * What chord that normally appears in a blues is missing from "Lost My Money In Jim Kinnane's"? -lV chord
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 03, 2017, 08:16:54 AM
I've been struggling a bit with Snooks Eaglin's 'I Must See Jesus'.  I'm also hearing in C standard and say 3/4 time but not that confident about the first 7 chords.  Sure they start with C C7 and finish with G7 but struggling with the 4 chords in between.

Also agree with Prof Scratchy's responses on Joe Callicot's  "Lost My Money In Jim Kinnane's" but Willie Moore's "Goin' Away To Leave You" I'm hearing out Dropped D and hearing his IV chord as XXX430.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on February 03, 2017, 09:26:08 AM
Agree with Professor Scratchy on these, except I think on Snooks' tune the first 7 chords are:
C E7 Am D G D7 G
it sounds to me like the same chord progression as the end of "Maxwell's Silver Hammer"!

also I would suggest 12/8 for the time signature on that one.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: lindy on February 03, 2017, 01:35:19 PM
I'm only going to respond to one question, Snooks' time signature.

Something tells me that this is a trick question, that it's really just good 'ol 4/4.

Lindy
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on February 03, 2017, 04:56:52 PM
As Lindy, just the rhythm question. To me it has a 6/8 feel from the changes, which works out to a 32 bar pop tune format. [Edit to add] If I counted correctly in one pass.

Wax
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on February 04, 2017, 10:03:23 AM
Agreed with the professor on C standard on Snooks' tune. And with Chris on the 12/8 time signature.

I hear the intro chords like this: C - E7 - Am - C7 - F - F#dim7 - G7.

Cheers,

Pan
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 04, 2017, 12:26:49 PM
With the Prof on Snooks
Willie I gert Drop D
Joe Callicot - sounds like the C progression used by the barber William Moore and by Big Bill with the IV chord missing.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 06, 2017, 09:11:25 AM
Hi all,
It looks like everyone who had intended to respond to the most recent set of puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.

For Snooks Eaglin's "I Must See Jesus":
   * His playing position/tuning was C position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded to that question had it.
   * His progression in the first seven chords is exactly as Pan had it:  C-E7-Am-C7-F-F#dim7-G7, with the G7 being held for two beats.  What makes Snooks' playing of the progression so special is that he voices the E7 over B in the bass and the C7 over G in the bass so that he gets a descending bass line, C-B-A-G-F, then the F# voiced on the first string followed briefly on the sixth string, concluding with the F# on the first string resolving down to F and the F# on the sixth string resolving up into G.
   * For Snooks' meter, I'm going to agree with Wax on 6/8, mostly because of the rate at which the chords change and how it plays out in the form.  A case could be made for 12/8, which Chris and Pan had, too.  In either meter, what you end up with is a duple meter with each beat having an underlying triplet.  This song was reminding me of another as I listened to it, and I realized it was the old Soul ballad, "The Great Pretender", which is similarly in 6/8.  Here is the progression for Snooks' first pass through the form:

   |    C    |    C    |    C    |  Am7   |

   |   D7   |    G    |  C  F  |   C7     |

   |    F    |    F     |    C   |  Am7   |

   |   D7   |   D7   |    G   |    G7    |

   |    C    |    C    |    C    |    C7   |

   |    F    |    F    |    F     |   Fm   |

   |  C  C7 |   F    | C   E7 |    Am   |

   |    D7   |   G7  |  C   F  |   C7    |, followed by

Chorus wind-up:

   |   F     | F#dim7 | C   F  |   C  Am7  |

   |    D7   |    G7    |   C      |    G7    |

This works out to a 32-bar form with an 8-bar tag.  Every subsequent pass through the form shortens it in different ways.  This is such a pretty song, and it is a model of concision in the left hand of the guitar.  Snooks played the entire, pretty complex progression, without every venturing above the third fret!

For Willie Moore's "Going Away To Leave You":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning.  It really does sound like dropped-D tuning at the beginning of the rendition especially, but at the :16 mark, right after the IV chord in the next question, Willie Moore plays the index hammer to the first fret of the third string that is a prime identifier of E position in standard tuning.
   * For his IV chord from :12--:16, Willie Moore was living on the top three strings, playing 6-5-0, going from the third string to the first.  This is essentially what Prof Scratchy had, minus the bass strings.

For Joe Callicott's "Lost My Money In Jim Kinnane's"
   * His playing position/tuning was G position in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned had it.
   * Joe Callicott fretted the passage from :38--:44 exactly as Prof Scratchy described it, moving his G chord up the neck intact and rocking between the 7th and fifth frets on the first and sixth strings four times.  It's a great example of the melody taking the bass for a ride.
   * The chord that the song lacks which is normally found in blues is the IV chord, which I think everyone who responded to identified correctly.  The lack of the IV chord, gives the song more of a pre-blues sound I think, and despite the lyrics, it really sounds like a children's song.
I feel about Joe Callicott's singing the way Miles Davis characterized Joao Gilberto's singing:  "I'd listen to him sing the phone book!"

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 11, 2017, 10:58:52 AM
Hi all,
It seems like it's about time for another set of puzzlers, so here goes.  The first puzzler is from Peetie Wheatstraw, and is his "Long Time Ago Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/cfhPHCaHAKw

INTRO

It was one mornin', long time ago
Mmm-hmm, well, brown, said, a long time ago
Well, day I got in trouble, hmm well, brown, babe, and I've gotta go

I gotta leave here, now I can't stay here no more
Hoo-hoo, fair brown, sayin' I can't stay here no more
Well, they have trouble, they have got me, hmm-well, Lord, and I gotta go

Ain't it hard to have your home, and you can't go there no more
Now, ain't it hard to have a home, and you can't go there no more
Well, but now I got in trouble, hmm, well, brown, babe, and I got to go

SOLO

Well, babe, I got up this morning, babe, I walked out in the street
I was sayin', I got up this morntin', mama, and walked out in the street
And, you know, I met a man, ooo well, brown, he was tryin' to raise a fuss with me

Well now, you know, that's the reason, I'm away from home today
Hmm-mmm well, know that's the reason, I'm away from home today
Well, well, well, troubles, they have caused me, hoo well, brown, that I'd be away today

The questions on "Long Time Ago Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Peetie Wheatstraw use to play the song?
   * Where did Peetie Wheatstraw fret the fill he plays from :43--:45?
   * What chord normally played in a blues is omitted by Peetie Wheatstraw in "Long Time Ago Blues?

The second song is from Big Charley Bradix, his "Numbered Days", from 1951.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/rOhGwoi-ooU

INTRO

My days numbered here, babe, I ain't gon' be here long
My days are numbered, babe, I ain't gon' be here long
Well, I'm leavin' here now, people, want my baby to follow on

This old town has done got funny, seem like hard luck is fallin' on me
Yes, this old town has got funny, seem like hard luck is falling on me
I've heard of a place called Happiness, and now I'm goin' to see

SOLO

Don't cry, please, babe, honey, after I'm gone
Don't cry, baby, honey, after I'm gone
Just get your business fixed, and try to follow on

The questions on "Numbered Days" are:
   * What playing position/tuning is being used by the lead guitarist?
   * Where does the lead guitarist fret the opening phrase, from :00--:04?
   * Charley Bradix's phrasing on "Numbered Days" is most often ___________.  (Fill in the blank.)

The third song is Willie Trice's "Three Little Kitten Rags".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/31njoXVz2bg

(Spoken:  Once there was three little kitten.  They was out playin' and they lost their mittens, whilst their mother was preparin' a pie.  So when they went back and told their mother, and they was begin to cry, says, uh, "Mother, we lost our mittens."  And she says, "Oh my, you'll get no pie until you find those mittens."  So the little kitten was hungry, they started out.)

GUITAR INSTRUMENTAL

(Spoken:  So they went back and told their mama, says, "Mother, we have found our mittens."  Says, "Now, little kittens, you shall have some pie."  So they set down and they ate the pie.  Then they afterwards said they go on out and have a nice time, so the old boss kitten said, "Let's go out and have a party."  So here they went, down across the field.)

GUITAR INSTRUMENTAL

(Spoken:  Old boss kitten just keep a-goin' now.)

GUITAR INSTRUMENTAL

(Spoken:  Says, now the old boss though he would sing a good song for 'em, now.)

GUITAR INSTRUMENTAL

(Spoken:  That was the end of the cat family.)

The questions on "Three Little Kitten Rags" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Trice use to play the tune?
   * Where did Willie Trice fret what he played over his IV chord, from :29--:35 and elsewhere in the course of the song?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, February 14.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 15, 2017, 06:45:59 AM
Hi all,
Any takers on the Peetie Wheatstraw, Charley Bradix and Willie Trice puzzlers?  Answer as few of the questions as you wish.  come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 15, 2017, 08:43:26 AM
Not confident about these answers, but here goes:

The questions on "Long Time Ago Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Peetie Wheatstraw use to play the song? - E standard sounding in Ab.
   * Where did Peetie Wheatstraw fret the fill he plays from :43--:45? - He bends the second string played at the 8th fret, sounding  against the open first string, which he brushes together with the second string ten times.
   * What chord normally played in a blues is omitted by Peetie Wheatstraw in "Long Time Ago Blues? - V chord.

The questions on "Numbered Days" are:
   * What playing position/tuning is being used by the lead guitarist? - A standard
   * Where does the lead guitarist fret the opening phrase, from :00--:04? - 1str/ 8th fret bend x4 1str / 5fret 2nd str/ 5fret its str / 5th fret its str slide 4th to 5th fret x2
   * Charley Bradix's phrasing on "Numbered Days" is most often ____out of time   _______.  (Fill in the blank.)

The questions on "Three Little Kitten Rags" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Trice use to play the tune? - E sounding in Ab
   * Where did Willie Trice fret what he played over his IV chord, from :29--:35 and elsewhere in the course of the song? - 2st//4fr and 3rd str/5fret sliding up to 2str /5fret and 3str 6fret;  that shape played against open 1 str, then > 3str 4fr and > 1str 7fr> 2str 7fret bend x2 to open 1 str
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 15, 2017, 11:59:18 AM
Peetie Wheatstraw's "Long Time Ago Blues" I'm also hearing out of E standard
In the fill he plays from :43--:45 is he also catching a D at the 7th fret, 3rd string?
The chord normally played in a blues being omitted is the V chord.

Charley Bradix's "Numbered Days" I'm hearing in A standard

Willie Trice's "Three Little Kitten Rags" again in agreement with Prof Scratchy, E standard, but I was thinking he's fretting the IV chord as a A7th, mainly 2nd str/2nd fret & 1st str/3rd fret and the open 1st string.
   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 16, 2017, 03:53:56 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Peetie Wheatstraw, Charley Bradix and Willie Trice puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 17, 2017, 08:15:18 AM
Peetie - Spanish. No V chord. The little run played from the 5th position C with the top string fretted at the 8th fret.

Charlie Braddix - A standard

Mr.Trice - I'm with the Prof on this.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 20, 2017, 09:08:24 AM
Hi all,
It seems as though everyone who intended to respond to the Peetie Wheatstraw, Charley Bradix and Willie Trice puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers. 

For Peetie Wheatstraw's "Long Time Ago Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning, capoed up.  I've by no means heard all of Peetie Wheatstraw's recordings on which he played guitar, but on every one that I have heard, he has worked out of this position/tuning with this same basic sound.
   * From :43--:45, Peetie Wheatstraw brushes the open first string and the second string fretting a bent note at the eighth fret while pounding away with his right thumb on the seventh fret of the fifth string, a la Bill Broonzy, in rhythmic unison with his brush strokes in the treble.
   * Peetie Wheatstraw never played a V chord in the course of the song, as every responder stated.

For Charley Bradix's "Numbered Days":
   * His playing position/tuning was A position in standard tuning as everyone had it.
   * For the opening phrase, from :00--:04, the lead guitarist frets the same frets on the first and second strings, playing a line in parallel fourths:  he reefs on the eight fret of the first and second strings several times, hits the fifth fret of the first and second strings, goes to the first and second strings open, then hammers from the third fret of the first two strings to the fifth fret of the first two strings.  It's really kind of an exotic sound.  I think if you used your third finger at the eighth fret, the index finger at the fifth fret, and then hammered from the index finger to the third finger, third fret to fifth fret, it would work.
   * For the fill-in-the-blank question, what I had in mind was "Charley Bradix's phrasing on "Numbered Days" is most often short.", but I have no quibbles with Prof Scratchy's blank-filler, "out of time".  His answer is every bit as appropriate as what I had in mind.

For Willie Trice's "Three Little Kittens Rag":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning as everyone had it.
   * For his IV chord, from :29--:35, Willie Trice fretted the following:  He starts out going from the sixth fret of the third string to the fifth fret of the second string, skips up to the seventh fret of the first string, resolving it down to the fifth fret of the first string, then goes twice from the bent eighth fret of the second string to the open first string.  He plays this sequence of notes twice while hitting open strings in the bass irregularly, the fifth and fourth strings.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy, Old Man Ned and blueshome for participating in the puzzlers, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more puzzlers to post soon.  Let me know if you have any questions.

All best,
Johnm


Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 23, 2017, 11:12:17 AM
Hi all,
I have some new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is from Walter Miller, his "Stuttgart, Arkansas".  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/dELa3LfvN4U

(Spoken:  Here come old Hopalong now, he don't want any 'ventin' puttin' out this "Suttgart, Arkansas".  Now I'm gonna try and play it for you folk.)

INTRO

I'm gonna leave old Memphis, Stuttgart, Arkansas
I'm gonna leave old Memphis, Stuttgart, Arkansas
Man, the bad-lookin' women, man, you ever saw

Well, you seen that little old woman, walkin' down the street,
Ask her what the matter, man, know she been drinkin' heat
I'm gonna leave old Memphis, Stuttgart, Arkansas
Man these bad-lookin' women, man, you ever saw

Well, she hit the policeman, knocked him off his feet
"What's wrong with you gal?"  "I been drinkin' heat."
I'm gonna leave old Memphis, Stuttgart, Arkansas
Man, these bad-lookin' women, man, you ever saw

SOLO

Well, I've got me a little old woman, right down on the ground
Every time I kiss her, man, have a face all full of frowns
I'm gonna leave old Memphis, Stuttgart, Arkansas
Man, these bad-lookin' women, man, you ever saw

Well, I went down to my bossman, fell down on my knees
"Don't want nothin' crippled but my good gal back to me."
I'm gonna leave old Memphis, Stuttgart, Arkansas
Man, these bad-lookin' women, man, you ever saw

The questions on "Stuttgart, Arkansas" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Walter Miller use to play the song?
   * At the very beginning of his rendition, Walter Miller does a slide in the treble and resolves to a higher-pitched note.  On what string and to which fret does he slide, and where does he fret the higher-pitched note to which he resolves?
   * Describe the bar structure of his first verse, using I, IV and V to name the chords.

The second puzzler is Brother Son Bonds and Hammie Nixon's rendition of "Ain't That News?".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/P4BvVL_f2MA

INTRO

My old Mother done gone to Glory, ain't that news?
My old Mother have gone to Glory, ain't that news?
Gonna lay down my burdens, should' them all abroad
Carry it on home to Jesus, ain't that news

SOLO

My own sister died a-shoutin', ain't that news?
My own sister died a-shoutin', ain't that news?
Lay down my burdens, carry 'em all abroad
Gonna carry it on home to Heaven, ain't that news?

SOLO

My old Father died a-prayin', ain't that news?
My old Father died a-prayin', ain't that news?
Gonna lay down my burdens, should' them all abroad
Gonna carry them home to Jesus, ain't that news?

My old Auntie has gone and left me, ain't that news?
My old Auntie have gone and left me, ain't that news?
Gonna lay down my burdens, shoulder them all abroad
Gonna carry 'em on home to Jesus, ain't that news?

SOLO

My old Mother died a-shoutin', ain't that news?
My old Mother died a-shoutin', ain't that news?
I'm gonna lay down my burden, should' them all abroad
Carry it on home to Jesus, ain't that news?

The questions on "Ain't That News?" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Son Bonds use to play the song?
   
The third puzzler is Richard "Hacksaw" Harney's rendition of "Down South Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/6kpjCHDgwhs

The questions on "Down South Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Hacksaw Harney use to play the song?
   * Where does he fret what he plays from :53--:58?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Sunday, February 26.  Remember, there is no requirement that you answer all the questions.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 26, 2017, 12:21:30 PM
To start off on "Stuttgart, Arkansas" the playing position/tuning that Walter Miller uses, I'm out of hearing A standard. Hopefully get to the other details later.

Son Bonds, "Ain't That News?" I'm hearing in D standard (? I don't think it's dropped D) and Hacksaw Harney, a particular favourite of mine, I'm hearing out of E standard but tuned about a step low.  I think what he is playing from :53--:58 is out of a long A shape up the neck at 9th fret.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 27, 2017, 02:43:55 AM
The questions on "Stuttgart, Arkansas" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Walter Miller use to play the song? - A standard
   * At the very beginning of his rendition, Walter Miller does a slide in the treble and resolves to a higher-pitched note.  On what string and to which fret does he slide, and where does he fret the higher-pitched note to which he resolves? - 2nd str/3>4>1st str/2
   * Describe the bar structure of his first verse, using I, IV and V to name the chords. -IV-I-IV-I-V-I

The questions on "Ain't That News?" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Son Bonds use to play the song? - D standard


   The questions on "Down South Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Hacksaw Harney use to play the song? -E Standard tuned low
   * Where does he fret what he plays from :53--:58?  - He holds down a long A shape E chord at the ninth fret with his pinky on the 12th fret of the first string. His improvisation takes place mostly on the third, second and first strings at the twelfth fret, but I haven?t been able to work it out exactly!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on February 27, 2017, 05:51:57 PM
Hi all,

My guesses.

I agree with Old Man Ned and Professor Scratchy on A standard on Walter Miller's Stuttgard, Arkansas; and on E-standard on Hacksaw Harney's Down South Blues.

For the bar structure of Stuttgard, Arkansas, I get:

|| IV | IV | IV | IV |

| I IV | I | I V | I | I |

| IV | IV | IV | IV |

| I IV | I | I V | I | I |

| V | V | V | V |

| I IV | I | I ||


On Ain't That News, I think Son Bonds might be playing from C standard (pitched up about a whole-tone). That would make the little bend up from 4th fret 2nd string a little easier, seems to me.


What Hacksaw Harney frets on :53--:58 sounds to me like this:

First I believe he frets an E7 chord: X-X-12-13-X-12, letting the 4th and 3rd string ring, and brushing quick 8th and 16th notes on the 1st string;
then he lowers the 4th and 3rd string one fret, to form an A7 chord X-X-11-12-X-12; he plays the 4th and 3rd string on beat one, then the 1st string on beat two, then on beat three he plays two eight notes, the 1str string and the 3rd string; then he plays the 4th and 3rd string on beat 4, and slides them up a half step to get back to the E7 chord on the first beat of the next bar.
After ringing the 4th and 3rd strings, he plays the 1st string 12th fret note on the second half of the 1st beat. There might be an open D string ringing at the same time?
Then follows eighth notes as follows: 2nd string 15th fret; 2nd string 14th fret, second string 12th fret, 2nd string 15th fret, 2nd string 14th fret, 3rd string 12th fret.
On the next bar he plays over a partial F-shaped chord on the XII fret: on bass he plays a muted quarter note on the 14th fret of the 4th string, on the melody two eight notes, 13th fret of the 3rd string, followed by the 12th fret of the 2nd string;
then the quarter note on bass is repeated while on melody we have two eight notes, the 14th fret of the 2nd string, followed by the 12th fret of 1st string.
A solitary bass quarter note again then follows before a change of position for the IV chord lick lower on the neck.

I really loved the Hacksaw Harney tune, I'll consider trying to learn it!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 28, 2017, 12:29:25 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Walter Miller, Brother Son Bonds and Hacksaw Harney puzzlers?  Come one, come all!  Answer all the questions or just one, whatever you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 03, 2017, 09:09:50 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though all the responses for the Walter Miller, Brother Son Bonds and Hacksaw Harney puzzlers are in, so I'll post the answers.

For Walter Miller's "Stuttgart, Arkansas":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as everyone had it--well done!
   * At the beginning of his rendition, Walter Miller slides to the fifth fret of the second string and resolves upward to the fourth fret of the first string, a little partial E chord out of a D shape, moved up two frets.  I don't recall hearing anyone else do this in an A blues.  He uses this same V chord, albeit with the open A string in the bass, for his V chords that he plays in the course of his verse accompaniments.
   * I feel like Pan and Prof Scratchy both had Walter Miller's bar structure for his opening verse right, with Prof Scratchy's version writ large, and Pan picking up detail.  Here's what I heard, with Walter Miller in the main playing a "doubled up" structure in which each chord is held at least twice as long as it would usually be held (with exceptions):

   |    IV    |    IV    |    IV    |    IV    |     I     |     I     |     I     |     I     |     I     |

   |    IV    |    IV    |    IV    |    IV    |     I     |     I     |     I     |     I     |     I     |

   |     V     |    V     |    V     |    V     |    I      |    I (6 beats) |

For Brother Son Bonds and Hammie Nixon's "Ain't That News":
   * Son Bonds' playing position was C position in standard tuning, as Pan had it

For Hacksawy Harney's "Down South Blues":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as everyone had it.
   * Hacksaw fretted what he played from :53--:58 as follows:  He starts out playing an E7 out of a "long A" position, with his index finger fretting the top four strings at the ninth fret, his little finger fretting the twelfth fret of the first string and his ring or third finger fretting the twelfth fret of the fourth string, voicing the seventh of the chord there.  He holds that position for four beats, while tremoloing with his index finger the first two strings.  In the next bar, he resolves the fourth string down to the eleventh fret, making an E6 for three beats.  On 4+ of that second measure, he pinches the second and fourth strings while sliding his index partial barre from the seventh up to the ninth fret, with the ninth fret tied into beat 1 of the next measure.  On the + of beat one, he starts a run at the twelfth fret of the first string.  On 2+, he goes from from the tenth fret of the first string to the ninth fret of the first string.  On 3+, he goes from the twelfth fret of the second string back to the tenth fret of the first string.  On 4+, he goes from the ninth fret of the first string to the twelfth fret of the third string.  On 1+ of the next measure he goes from the ninth fret of the second string to the twelfth fret of the second string.  On 2+, he concludes the run by resolving from the ninth fret of the first string to the twelfth fret of the first string, where the run started.  He uses the very same fingering assignments that Bo Carter used for such runs on the first three strings working out of the "long A" shape:  index finger frets everything at the ninth fret, second finger frets everything at the tenth fret, and little finger frets everything at the twelfth fret.  If you finger it this way, this very florid, complicated-sounding run is not that tough to play, though it may take some getting used to, fretting the third string with the little finger.  I hope that some of you will work out this run from the description I've given, just so you see that it is not at all beyond what you can do!

Thanks very much to Prof Scratchy, Old Man Ned and Pan for participating, because it's the participation that makes this thread go--otherwise it's just me running my mouth.  I hope folks enjoyed the songs and I'll look for more puzzlers to post soon.
All best,
Johnm
   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on March 03, 2017, 03:33:27 PM
Thanks again for the detailed analysis, John!

I certainly am going to work my way through your explanation on Hacksaw's lick, since I'm hoping I'll be able to learn and play the song some day, if not soon!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 03, 2017, 06:13:52 PM
Thanks for your comments, Pan and your participation in the thread.  I look forward to hearing your rendition of "Down South Blues", once you've got it worked out.  One of things that Hacksaw does on it that sounds so great to me is his way of using downward slides in the bass to get from positions up the neck to ones at the base of the neck.  I don't recall hearing many (or any) other players do that to that extent, and it sounds like a million bucks to me.  He sure was a great player!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on March 04, 2017, 11:47:37 AM
And thanks from me for the analysis, John.   I thought this lick was out of a long A7 chord up at an E7 but couldn't nail down the details.  It does sound great when played through.

I love Hacksaw Harney's playing so was really pleased when this came up as a puzzler. I've had a crack at transcribing his first pass on Ragtime Blues from his Sweet Man recording a while back so will return to that. 

As ever John, you're an inspiration.

Thanks so much.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 04, 2017, 04:12:01 PM
You're very welcome, Old Man Ned, and I don't see how I did the thread for this long without getting a Hacksaw Harney tune in there before now!  Thanks very much for your participation in the puzzlers and the good words.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 05, 2017, 06:31:40 AM
Thanks for the analysis John.

 I was unable to make time to have my guesses this time - we have been busy getting ready to move house tomorrow.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 05, 2017, 06:48:39 AM
Good luck with the move, Phil, and I hope it goes off as you would wish, and you're in your new place soon.
All best,
John
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 09, 2017, 04:30:02 PM
Hi all,
I thought I'd post some new puzzlers, and for these ones the only question will be what playing position/tuning was used to play the song.  The first song is Georgia Slim's "Ocean Wide Blues", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/Dxq_wR4Mlhw

INTRO SOLO

I'm going 'cross the ocean, going 'cross over on the other side
Well, man, I got to go there, to there where, change my luck and wife

I'm going right now, I'm goin' 'round all around
Well, I'm going down, baby, ooo well, well, see that girl on the other side

Good Lord, Good Lord, send me a injun down
Well, you can't send me a injun, ooo  well, well, give me a teasin' brown

Well, the girl I love, she stays all on that other side
I'm gon' swim that ocean, ooo, well, well, see where she keep my time

SOLO X 2

I'm going today, I'm going down there every way
Well, I'm gonna see that good brown, ooo well, well, if I have to go I'll never stay

Well, she's up this morning, she left me holding hands
Well, when she went and left me, ooo well, well, she left with that other man

My broad, my broad, tell me what you going to do
Well, you used to love me, ooo well, well, now you gon' say that you love me true

SOLO

I'm going away, come back in someday
Well, I love you, baby, ooo well, well, seem like gon' steal away

Well, babe, well, babe, I see now what that I done done
Well, you used to make me love you, ooo well, well, now you done quit my other one

Goodbye, goodbye, I know that I'm goin' away
I might see you again, ooo well, well, some old lonesome day, baby, that's the way I'm goin' away

Edited 3/16 to pick up correction from banjochris

What playing position/tuning did Georgia Slim use to play "Ocean Wide Blues"?

The second puzzler is Barbecue Bob's recording of "Trouble Done Bore Me Down".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/OCX_LdER4Vo

INTRO

REFRAIN: Trouble done bore me down, aw, trouble done bore me down
But here I sit, a-mourning, trouble done bore me down

One funny time I was happy and gay
But now that time has passed away

REFRAIN: Trouble done bore me down, oh, trouble done bore me down
But here I sit, a-mourning, trouble done bore me down

INTERLUDE

REFRAIN: Now, trouble done bore me down, trouble done bore me down
Here I sit, a-mourning, trouble done bore me down

My gal run off with another man
Catch me now, and just see if you can

REFRAIN: Trouble done bore me down, oh, trouble done bore me down
But here I sit, a-mourning, trouble done bore me down

I used to skin my liquor so easy and nice
Liquor's rotten now, oh, what a price!

REFRAIN: Trouble done bore me down, aw, trouble done bore me down
But here I sit, a-mourning, trouble done bore me down

INTERLUDE

Fix up your gal with a nice little flat
Along come another man, leave you just like that

REFRAIN: Trouble done bore me down, aw, trouble done bore me down
But here I sit, a-mourning, trouble done bore me down

Up before the judge, your eyes full of tears
For beating up your gal, you got twenty-five years

REFRAIN: Trouble done bore me down, aw, trouble done bore me down
But here I sit, a-mourning, trouble done bore me down

INTERLUDE

You got a lifetime, you don't need no more
The judge drop by, you get four or five more

REFRAIN: Trouble done bore me down, aw, trouble done bore me down
But here I sit, a-mourning, trouble done bore me down

REFRAIN: Now, trouble done bore me down, aw, trouble done bore me down
But here I sit, a-mourning, trouble done bore me down

All that is left for me to do
Is work just like a fool
Then maybe I'll get through

REFRAIN: But trouble done bore me down, aw, trouble done bore me down
And here I sit, a-mourning, trouble done bore me down

What playing position/tuning did Barbecue Bob use to play "Trouble Done Bore Me Down"?

The third puzzler is J. T. "Funny Papa" Smith's recording of "Heart Bleeding Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/zifXfdEXbxY

What playing position/tuning did J. T. Smith use to play "Heart Bleeding Blues?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Sunday, March 12.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on March 12, 2017, 08:34:08 AM
I've only given each tune one listen through due to various domestic incidents (boiler burst, taps leaking) & wife's birthday today, so hopefully I haven't blown it (with my responses to the puzzlers).

This is what I'm hearing:
Georgia Slim's "Ocean Wide Blues" E standard

Barbecue Bob's "Trouble Done Bore Me Down" G standard

J. T. Smith's "Heart Bleeding Blues C standard

I've hardly heard any Barbecue Bob before, but hasn't he got a lovely voice.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 12, 2017, 10:37:17 AM
Georgia Slim - E standard
Bob - Spanish
JT Smith - C standard
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on March 12, 2017, 12:13:57 PM
Georgia Slim: E Standard*
BBQ Bob: Not sure
Funny Papa: C Standard

Funny Papa was an engaging and interesting player, I think.  Yazoo put out a whole LP of Funny Papa tunes, and you can read the liner notes here https://www.wirz.de/music/smifpfrm.htm (https://www.wirz.de/music/smifpfrm.htm) as well as a discography. The authors of the liner notes criticize Funny Papa's tuning ability and non-standard chord progressions, but it seems to me that those features are consistent in his playing, which implies that he was getting the sound he was striving for (just my opinion).

*Pro tip: it's easier if one's guitar is tuned to pitch  :P
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 13, 2017, 07:14:05 AM
I'll go with blueshome! The BBQ Bob was the one I'mhaving most difficulty with. He played a lot in Spanish, so I'll go with that. Not a lot of information there though! Or maybe it's just my hearing aids needing new batteries!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 13, 2017, 04:12:37 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Georgia Slim, Barbecue Bob and J. T. Smith puzzlers?  Come one, come all, answer only one question if you wish or all three.  Go berserk! 
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 14, 2017, 09:15:29 AM
Pretty sure Barbecue Bob's "Trouble" is in G standard. A few reasons: He plays an E-F#-G run on the sixth string repeatedly, certainly possible in Spanish but this is a move he never makes in his many, many Spanish pieces. His V chord sounds like a regular old D chord to me with the third on top, again possible but unlikely in Spanish, and the big giveaway to me is he often is playing a II7 chord with the open A string as the bass note.

And Old Man Ned, if you haven't heard much Bob, you're in for a treat. A very underrated bluesman with a great voice, and although he recorded a lot of similar-sounding material, there's a lot of great stuff in there.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 15, 2017, 07:13:24 AM
Hi all,
I think that everyone who intended to respond to the Georgia Slim, Barbecue Bob and J. T. Smith puzzlers has done so by now, so I will post the answers.

For Georgia Slim's "Ocean Wide Blues", his playing position was E position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--well done!  The 8-bar blues progression he used for the song fits so well in E position, and many, many versions were recorded in E.

For Barbecue Bob's "Trouble Done Bore Me Down", his playing position was G position in standard tuning, as Old Man Ned and banjochris had it.  In the last previous post in the thread, Chris lays out the aural and fingering reasons why G standard fits the sound better than does Spanish tuning, which was used by Barbecue Bob much more extensively in his recorded repertoire than was G position in standard tuning.  I'm by no means familiar with all of Barbecue Bob's recordings, but from what I've heard of his repertoire, it seems he most often uses a slide at some point (or throughout) his songs that he played in Spanish tuning.
One other point with regard to making position/tuning identifications when you're having a tough time choosing between two possibilities:  If you're having a hard time making the choice on the basis of what the I chord sounds like and what gets played over the I chord, quite often it is the IV and V chords that will swing the identification in one direction or the other.  With regards to "Trouble Done Bore Me Down", in Spanish, at the base of the neck, the IV chord would most often be fingered X-0-2-0-1-0, or possibly have the first string at the second fret.  The V7 chord will most often be fretted 0-X-0-2-1-0.  In G standard, you know the IV and V chords, C and D (or D7 for a V7).  If you compare the sounds of the IV and V7 chords in the two positions/tunings, they're pretty different sounding.  So if you have a tough time making an identification from the sound of the I chord, scrutinize the sound of the IV and V chords.

For J. T. Smith's "Heart Bleeding Blues", his playing position was C position in standard tuning, as everyone responding had it--well done!

In general, I think the position/tuning identifications have by far been right most of the time lately, which is great to see.  And if the position/tuning for a song is figured out right, getting the details of what someone played is just a sort of war of attrition--hang in there long enough, and you'll get it, or something that sounds close enough for you.  Wanting to get something note for note is a relatively recent trend.  Certainly the early players weren't concerned about that when they borrowed (or stole) ideas from each other.  It was pretty much presumed that any musical material utilized would be expressed later in the style and with the rhythmic feel of the player who had taken the idea and run with it.

Thanks to all who participated and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more puzzlers to post soon.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 16, 2017, 09:54:33 PM
Hi all,
I've been trying to transcribe the lyrics to Georgia Slim's "Ocean Wide Blues", in the most recent puzzler, at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100542#msg100542 .  I'm missing the end of one verse and would appreciate a critical listen to see if I have the lyrics wrong in other places.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 16, 2017, 10:21:05 PM
Sounds like "take my time" or "keep my time" to me. Sounds like he screwed up what he wanted to sing there.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 16, 2017, 10:29:40 PM
Thanks for the help, Chris, I reckon it is "keep my time", though, as you noted, it doesn't really make sense.  I will make the change.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 19, 2017, 09:30:26 AM
Hi all,
I have some new puzzlers for those of you who are interested.  The first is Lonnie Johnsons's "There Is No Justice", recorded in 1932.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/VtzhKWvuHPw

SOLO

Now, they put me in this jailhouse, twenty long years today
And it's drivin' me crazy, I've got thirty more years to stay

The jailhouse, boy, is a lonesome place
'Specially when that turnkey slams the door in your face

Now, they sent me up for blackmail, and I can't even sign my name
Some dirty rat pulled this job and I got to bear the blame

I even give my last dollar to those with a beggin' hand
Then bad luck passed all the crooks and I had to be that fallen man

Boy, I been layin' in this death cell, writin' my time upside the wall
When I had plenty money I had friends, now I'm in trouble, ain't got a friend at all

Boys, it's a pity, but I sure can't understand
They say the judge is for justice, and still he frame a innocent man

SOLO

I was put in the cell twenty long years ago
Some poor men live their time out and some, never lives to go

The questions on "There Is No Justice" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lonnie Johnson use to play the song?
   * What kind of V chord does Lonnie Johnson play from :20--:22, and where does he fret it?
   * Where does Lonnie Johnson fret the IV chord he plays from :22--:26?

The second puzzler is Washboard Walter and John Byrd's "Overall Cheater Blues".  Here it is (sorry, the sound quality is kind of rough):

https://youtu.be/3BxO3nNXo8E

I want you women to strictly understand
I want you women, strictly understand
Every man wear overhalls, ain't no monkey man

When you see me in my overhalls, like a stickman on his beat
When you see me in my overhalls, like a stickman on his beat
Looking for a woman that Overhall Papa can keep

I want you to iron my overhalls, iron them 'til they shine
I want you to iron my overhalls, iron them 'til they shine
I'm gonna leave you, mama, if I have to ride the blinds

I wear them at home, wear 'em up and down the street
I wear 'em at home, wear 'em up and down the street
You know, thinks I'm a working man, when I ain't nothing but a deadbeat

I'm going to the factory, going for a stall
I'm going to the factory, going for a stall
The way I make my living is wearin' good overhalls

The reason I like my overhalls, I can get good pigmeat
The reason I like my overhalls, I can get good pigmeat
They call me the overhall king, and I'm, doggone hard to beat

Edited 3/25 to pick up corrections from waxwing
 
The questions on "Overall Cheater Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did John Byrd use to play the song?
   * Where did John Byrd fret the bass run he plays from :07--:09?
   * Where did John Byrd fret the bass run he plays over the IV chord from :14--:16?
   * Where did John Byrd fret what he plays from :41--:42, and what is it?

The third puzzler is Sylvester Cotton's "Three Cent Stamp".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/HHXGI6PtfkY

INTRO

I was back home, baby, and I've written you every day
I was back home, baby, and I've written you every day
Says, I'm sorry, pretty mama, I didn't hear a word you say

Lord, I went down to a drug store, Lord, to get me a three cent stamp
Lord, I went down to the drug store, to get me a three cent stamp
I'm sure I put it on the letter, baby, It must've thrown away

Says now, hey, woman, tell me when you comin' home
Hey, hey, pretty mama, tell me when you comin' home
Says, I miss you, pretty mama, ever since you been gone

Says, now you know, pretty mama, that I got the blues, (Spoken, Yeah!)
Hey, hey, pretty mama, mmmm, you know I got the blues
Says, I know I been missin' you, ever since I been gone from you

SOLO

Said, now bye, mama, guess I better go (Spoken: Yeah!)
Said, now bye, pretty mama, guess I better go
'Fore I wear out all the women, you don't want me 'round here no more

Said, now hey, woman, what you want me to do?  (Spoken:  Yeah!)
Hey, hey, pretty mama, what you want me to do?
Every time I think about you, give me the three stamp blues

SOLO

The questions on "Three Cent Stamp Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Sylvester Cotton use to play the song?
   * Where did Sylvester play what he plays from :11--:12?
   * How did Sylvester Cotton change his form for the solo from 1:31--1:44?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, March 21.  Answer just one question or all of them, however many you please.  I hope you enjoy the songs and enjoy working on the puzzlers.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 22, 2017, 12:58:42 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Lonnie Johnson, Washboard Walter/John Byrd and Sylvester Cotton puzzlers?  Answer one or all three--come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on March 22, 2017, 02:10:50 PM
These puzzlers have really got me stumped.  I'm hearing Lonnie Johnson in E standard ( a bit sharp) and thinking the V chord is a B7 5th and 3rd string at the 2nd fret and 4th string at 1st fret.  The IV chord is a barred A at the 2nd fret (4th, 3rd & 2nd strings) open high E, but I'm not at all confident about this.

For Washboard Walter and John Byrd's "Overall Cheater Blues", I'd like to make the excuse of the sound quality is hindering me but in all honesty I'm struggling. A little voice in my head is telling F standard as I'm approximating the run from from :07--:09 starting out on the 5th string/3rd fret and ending on the F on the 6th string, but......

I'm even more clueless with Sylvester Cotton's "Three Cent Stamp Blues".  Love the tune but......Open G is about the best I can come up with at the minute.....help!

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on March 22, 2017, 03:08:37 PM
Like Old Man Ned, I'm coming up short on these.  Lonnie sounds like he's working out of E position, but I'm wondering if he's in an unusual tuning.  The other ones, I got nothin'.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 22, 2017, 03:42:39 PM
Lonnie's in E standard. His V sounds like X-2-4-4-4-5 to me. His IV chord from :22-:26 sounds like X-0-2-2-2-0.

Byrd sounds like E standard to me as well. The bass run is something like: 5th string: 2-1-2, 6th string: 3-2-3-0. Someone who's not killing time at work will get it more accurately than that. His bass run over the IV chord is basically the same as Carl Martin's from "Crow Jane", which I'll leave to someone else to tab out. From :41-:42, without a guitar in front of me I would guess X-1-2-0-2-3 and it would be an A# diminished or A# dim7, I can never remember which.

Cotton sounds like E standard to me as well. From :11-:12 sounds like he's playing an E7 but essentially just playing the open 4th string and 3rd fret of the second string to get the octave D notes. And from 1:31-1:44 he switches to an 8-bar I-V-IV-I-V-I "Key to the Highway" progression.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 22, 2017, 04:12:33 PM
Didn't manage to work on the detail of these, but thought all three were in E standard. I did, however, also swither with EAEGBE tuning for the Lonnie one!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 23, 2017, 06:53:59 AM
Still in the midst of settling in so no guitar to hand. I would venture all 3 in E standard.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 24, 2017, 09:21:07 AM
Hi all,
I think everyone who intended to post on the Lonnie Johnson, Washboard Walter/John Byrd and Sylvester Cotton puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.

For Lonnie Johnson's "There Is No Justice":
   * His playing position was E in standard tuning, as everyone had it--well done!
   * The V7 chord Lonnie played from :20--:22 was a Bm7 (!), which he voiced on the four interior strings:  X-2-0-2-0-X.
   * The IV chord that Lonnie played from :22--:26 was an A chord, voiced X-0-7-6-5-0.  You can hear Lonnie bounce the octave from the open fifth string to the seventh fret of the fourth string and go back and fourth between the unison fifth fret of the second string and open first string.  Willie Trice really favored this voicing of A in his E blues, too.

I just feel like Lonnie Johnson remains full of surprises.  I'd heard one or two of his early songs which he played in E position in standard tuning, but was surprised to hear him play an 8-bar blues like this.  He's one of those people for whom you'd probably have to hear everything he recorded to get the full picture of what he did and could do, and even then, you'd only have what he recorded.

For Washboard Walter's "Overall Cheater Blues":
   * John Byrd's playing position was E position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it.
   * John Byrd's bass run from :07--:09 was fretted on the fifth string at 2-1-0, in a triplet, resolving to a triplet on the sixth string at 3-2-3, finally resolving to the open sixth string.
   * John Byrd's bass run over the IV chord at :14--:16 was fretted as follows, with four triplets:  The first goes from 0-4 on the fifth string up to 2 on the fourth string.  The second triplet goes from 4-2 on the fourth string then down to 4 on the fifth string.  The third triplet is a twisty move from 3-4-3 on the fourth string, and the fourth triplet goes from 2-4-3 on the fourth string, resolving into 2 on the fourth string on the downbeat of the seventh bar of the form.
   * At :41--:42, John Byrd fretted the first three strings at 5-5-5.  It's a kind of exotic sound.  He's in the sixth bar of the form at that point, and in the fifth bar he played a conventional A chord down at the second fret on the fourth, third and second strings, 2-2-2.  You can interpret his barred position up at the fifth fret of the first three strings as either an Am chord,  or a bVI chord, C6.  In either interpretation, the sound is IV major in the fifth bar going to IV minor in the sixth bar.  I don't recall hearing anybody else do this move this way on a blues played out of E position in standard tuning.

John Byrd was such a strong guitar player, and if you have an unsatisfied appetite for his playing, as I do, it's good to check out his duets with Washboard Walter.  Speaking of Washboard Walter, it's odd that he chose to put Washboard in his performance monicker when he almost never played it on his records.  Oh well.

For "Sylvester Cotton's "Three Cent Stamp Blues:
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning
   * At :11--:12, on the last three beats of the fourth bar of the form, Sylvester Cotton whangs on the open fifth string, the open fourth string, and the third fret of the second string.  It is a great, rasty sound, and is reminiscent of Robert Petway's "Catfish Blues", in which he brushes the open fifth string against the fifth fret of the fourth string.  I think the open A string that Sylvester Cotton brushes with his thumb, along with the open fourth string, really makes the sound, because when he resolves to his A chord in the next bar, it's as though the other shoe drops, since he anticipated the A note in the bass in the fourth bar.
   * For his solo from 1:31--1:44, Sylvester Cotton switched from the 12-bar form he had been utilizing for the song to an 8-bar form, exactly as Chris had it.

Sylvester Cotton strikes me as a Post-War musician who was a Country Blues player all the way, in his sound, his instincts and his touch. 

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 24, 2017, 09:45:48 AM

   * At :41--:42, John Byrd fretted the first three strings at 5-5-5.  It's a kind of exotic sound.  He's in the sixth bar of the form at that point, and in the fifth bar he played a conventional A chord down at the second fret, 2-2-2.  You can long at his barred position up at the fifth fret of the first three strings as either an Am chord, a bVI chord, C6.  In either interpretation, the sound is IV major in the fifth bar going to IV minor in the sixth bar.  I don't recall hearing anybody else do this move this way on a blues played out of E position in standard tuning.

I haven't heard that either in E -- that three-fret-up move on the IV chord is the same idea as what Scrapper Blackwell does with a D7 chord in A position, isn't it? But voiced a little differently?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 24, 2017, 12:46:11 PM
Hi Chris,
There are similarities in what John Byrd did to what Scrapper did, though the harmony works out differently.  When Scrapper moves a D7 shape up three frets intact, he's implying a D#dim7 chord (though he most often voices it with the fourth fret of the fourth string in the bass).  So he's walking up chromatically (though across an octave) from the IV note, D, in the fifth bar to the #IV note, D#, in the sixth bar.  In John Byrd's instance, he differs first in that he doesn't do the walk-up on the same three strings, so it's not exactly an intact walk-up.  The movement between his two chords has the major third of the IV chord, C#, in the A chord, at the second fret of the second string, resolving to the C natural in the A minor chord, at the fifth fret of the third string.
In Lil' Son Jackson's "No Money, No Love", he takes the A major voicing (even the long A, with the little finger fretting the fifth fret of the first string) up three frets intact, ending up with an Am7.  I'm thinking of starting a thread in this board called "Up Three Frets", because there are so many instances in Country Blues guitar where a shape is moved up three frets to get a different-colored but closely related sound.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 24, 2017, 01:15:42 PM
I'm used to hearing that implied dim7 chord and thought that's what I was hearing on the Byrd track. Thanks so much for the analysis!

I'm thinking of starting a thread in this board called "Up Three Frets", because there are so many instances in Country Blues guitar where a shape is moved up three frets to get a different-colored but closely related sound.

That sounds like a great idea!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 24, 2017, 02:18:07 PM
Whist not in E, one of Oscar Woods' trademarks is to move to the bVI following the IV. 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 25, 2017, 06:54:53 AM
Good point, Phil, and you get there by moving your slide up three frets.  It's especially easy working with a slide.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 25, 2017, 03:37:17 PM
Hi all,
I have been trying to transcribe Washboard Walter's lyrics to "Overall Cheater Blues", from the last set of puzzlers, at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg100631#msg100631 , and I'm stumped by a phrase in the tagline to the last verse.  I would very much appreciate some help with the phrase.  Thanks for any assistance.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on March 25, 2017, 04:49:14 PM
Sounds like:

"They call me the overhaul king,"

And in 1.1 and 1.2, I don't really hear "all of" in there, just:

"I want you women,"

Wax
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 25, 2017, 05:46:26 PM
Thanks for filling in the blank, wax, and for picking up my earlier error.  Sometimes you hear what you expect to hear, I reckon.  I have made your changes.  Thanks!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on March 26, 2017, 02:47:27 AM
Buddy Woods' moving of the slide up three frets was copied by his disciple, Black Ace. What both are doing, in effect, is playing a variant of the IV7 -- C7 if you're in G. In low-bass Spanish, four of the six strings in the 8th fret Eb chord are also in C7 (three Bbs and a G). That includes the top two strings -- G and Bb -- which they tend to accentuate. They also sometimes used Eb as a surrogate C7 by moving the bar up one fret to it from the D. (From memory, the other steel guitar maestro, Casey Bill Weldon, used a variant of this trick, going up one fret, but playing only the top two strings.)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 26, 2017, 05:08:25 AM
Hi Al,
Variant of C7, no, substitution for C7, yes.  It's not a function of the tuning either.  Any major triad, in whatever tuning, moved up three frets (a minor third) results in the major triad a minor third higher than the original triad.  A minor third above the IV chord is the bVI chord.  C-E-G raised three frets gives you Eb-G-Bb, the bVI chord in the key G.  If you want to assume that the ear continues to fill in the IV chord root, then you end up with C-Eb-G-Bb, a Cm7 chord or IVm7.  This is why moving a IV chord up three frets intact, despite the obvious raise in pitch, can sound like IV major going to IV minor:  the original IV chord had the major third of the IV chord, E, and the second chord, the bVI, contains the minor third of the IV chord, Eb.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 27, 2017, 07:30:40 AM
I'm sure I've heard this bVI move in the accompaniment of some of the 20's women singers and also Charlie Jackson. I can't recall exactly where though.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 27, 2017, 08:44:27 AM
Hi Phil,
Little Hat Jones did it on his solos on "Rolled From Side To Side".  He was playing it in G in standard tuning, so when he came to his IV chord, C, he just moved the shape intact, with the little finger fretting the first string, up three frets for the bVI chord, Eb. 
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on March 28, 2017, 05:10:57 AM
Hi Al,
Variant of C7, no, substitution for C7, yes.  It's not a function of the tuning either.  Any major triad, in whatever tuning, moved up three frets (a minor third) results in the major triad a minor third higher than the original triad.  A minor third above the IV chord is the bVI chord.  C-E-G raised three frets gives you Eb-G-Bb, the bVI chord in the key G.  If you want to assume that the ear continues to fill in the IV chord root, then you end up with C-Eb-G-Bb, a Cm7 chord or IVm7.  This is why moving a IV chord up three frets intact, despite the obvious raise in pitch, can sound like IV major going to IV minor:  the original IV chord had the major third of the IV chord, E, and the second chord, the bVI, contains the minor third of the IV chord, Eb.
All best,
Johnm
I stand corrected, John, but I do think we're approaching this from different perspectives. I was responding specifically to a comment on Buddy Woods' playing style, rather than to the wider ramifications of the up-three progression, and I was approaching it from the viewpoint of a "by-ear" not-very-musically-literate overhand steel player ... I mean me, not Buddy Woods. I do not know what a bVI chord is (what's the "b"?), but I do know that moving the bar up three frets from C will give me a C7 version that works well in certain pieces. And I kinda suspect Buddy Woods and Black Ace might have seen it that way, too. However, lest I be misunderstood, I'm glad to have had the technical explanation of what's happening in the shift, and I'll be having a look at using it elsewhere.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 28, 2017, 06:53:53 AM
I'm sorry, Al.  I should have explained it better and more thoroughly.  "bVI chord" is synonymous with a "flat VI" chord, which is a major chord built off of the flat sixth note of the major scale.  The lower case b is used as the best substitute for the musical flat sign that is available on a conventional typing keyboard.  In Oscar "Buddy" Woods' instance, he's playing in the key of G, the major scale of which is G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G.  His IV chord is a C chord, C-E-G.  By moving that chord up three frets, he raises each of the notes that comprises the chord a step-and-a-half.  C raised a whole step gives you D, and the additional half-step gets you to Eb, the flat VI note of the scale.  Raising the third of the C chord, E, a whole step gives you F#, and the additional half-step gives you G.  Raising the fifth of the C chord, G, a whole step gives you A, and the additional half-step gives you B flat.
So the three notes you wind up with by raising the IV chord, C, three frets, are E flat-G and B flat, which make an E flat major chord, which in the key of G major is termed a flat VI chord, since it is built off of the flat VI note of the G major scale.  The sound of the chord works well following a bar of the IV chord, and that it is how it is most often used when it is used in blues progressions, in the sixth bar of a twelve-bar blues.  A less common use would be in the tenth bar of the form, resolving it down to the V chord by half-step as you noted Buddy Woods like to do.  It's all just sounds, and the sounds precede and have more weight than any explanations.  I think the justification for explaining is that by working out what happens in a structural sense, you're able to give a name to a sensation, and you end up being able to recognize that sound and sensation every time you hear it, not just in the first context in which you heard it.
I think my quibble with describing the chord as a variant or version of a IV7 chord, is that it is not a IV chord in any way, but rather a chord that works well in a blues progression when used in conjunction with a IV chord, and most often in lieu of a IV chord, where a IV chord would often occur in a standard blues progression.  And as an aside, another place the flat VI chord was used was in Mance Lipscomb's "So Different Blues".  Mance is playing out of C position in standard tuning there, so the flat VI chord ends up being an A flat chord, and it falls in the sixth bar of his form, having been immediately preceded in the fifth bar of the form by the IV chord, F.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 29, 2017, 01:48:20 PM
Hi all,
I have some new puzzlers for anyone that is interested.  The first is from Barbecue Bob, and it is his recording of "Hurry And Bring It Back Home".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/KXGKFZ7LAsk

INTRO SOLO

I've got them blues, brown, I can't be satisfied
Got them blues, brown, I can't be satisfied
Got them so bad I could just lay down and die

INTERLUDE

Woke up this morning, my clock was strikin' four
Woke up this morning, my clock was strikin' four
Someone's there knockin', kinckin' on my door

INTERLUDE

I went to see what the noise was all about
I went to see what the noise was all about
Someone told me, "Your broad done left this house."

INTERLUDE

It fell on a Monday morning, first thing's bad news
On a Monday morning, first thing's bad new
Listen here, Professor, play for me those blues

Now mama, mama, hurry and bring it on back to me
Mama, mama, hurry and bring it on back to me
You are so crazy for ever leavin' me

Now, haven't I done everything you asked me to?
Haven't I done, mama, everything you asked me to?
You know by that I don't love no one but you

INTERLUDE

Listen here, sweet mama, I'm 'on tell you the natch'l facts
Listen here, sweet mama, gonna tell you the natch'l facts
You got what I want, so hurry, bring it back

The questions on "Hurry And Bring It Back Home: are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Barbecue Bob use to play the song?
   * Where did Barbecue Bob fret the descending passage from :10--:11?
   * How is Barbecue Bob getting the sound he gets from :32--:36?

The second song is William Harris's "Keep Your Man Out of Birmingham".  Here is his rendition:

https://youtu.be/IJqJAbN4nZQ

INTRO

If you want your man, keep him out of Birmingham
If you want your man, keep him out of Birmingham
There is some red hot mamas, down in dear old Alabam'

Now, let me tell you what these women will do for you
Now, let me tell you what these women will do for you
They will take your man, they will laugh out loud at you

If you see my man, sneakin' 'round, places where that he should not be
If you see my man, sneakin' 'round, places where that he should not be
Just tap him on the shoulder, send him right on home to me

My man, he have been there, but this letter says he's at home
My man, he have been there, but this letter says he's at home
I am from the 'Bama, and I don't know right from wrong

Says, the road is rocky, so they do say
The road is rocky, so they do say
But I am careful, I'm likely not to find my way

If you want your man, keep him out of Birmingham
If you want your man, keep him out of Birmingham
For there's some red hot mamas, down in dear old Alabam'

The questions on "Keep Your Man Out of Birmingham" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did William Harris use to play the song?
   * Where did William Harris fret the descending line from :43--:45?
 
The third puzzler is William Harris's "Kitchen Range Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/5Rg_nVRAJHs

INTRO

I got a range in my kitchen, it don't do me no good
I got a range in my kitchen, it don't do me no good
Gon' get me a New York woman, to burn my coal and wood

Gon' get me a New York woman, to burn my coal and wood
Gon' get me a New York woman, to burn my coal and wood
'Cause these Alabama women, they don't mean you no good

She had the nerve to tell me, she didn't want me no more
She had the nerve to tell me, she didn't want me no more
But that Good Book do declare, you've got to reap just what you sow

So many cold mornings, you drove me from your door
So many cold mornings, you drove me from your door
But that Good Book do say, baby, you've got to reap just what you sow

Ahhh, baby, what are you trying to do?
Ahhh, baby, what are you trying to do?
Are you trying to quit me, break my heart in two?

Say, I wonder do my baby, ever think of me
I wonder do my baby, ever think of me
Then I wonder, do my baby, ever think of me

I'm gonna tell you, woman, dago told the jew
I'm gonna tell you, baby, dago told the jew
If you don't want me, mama, what do I want with you?

The questions on "Kitchen Range Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did William Harris use to play the song?
   * Here did William Harris fret the triplet passage he plays from:10--:13?
   * Where did he fret the run he plays from :19--:21?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, March 31.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 01, 2017, 08:16:12 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Barbecue Bob and William Harris puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 02, 2017, 09:34:36 AM
The questions on "Hurry And Bring It Back Home: are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Barbecue Bob use to play the song? - A standard
   * Where did Barbecue Bob fret the descending passage from :10--:11? - F sharp chord to E chord to A
   * How is Barbecue Bob getting the sound he gets from :32--:36? - slides partial first position Ab chord to partial first position A chord


The questions on "Keep Your Man Out of Birmingham" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did William Harris use to play the song? - Spanish capoed at 6th fret
   * Where did William Harris fret the descending line from :43--:45? - plays open 5th string against descending  321 on fourth string


The questions on "Kitchen Range Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did William Harris use to play the song? - E standard
   * Here did William Harris fret the triplet passage he plays from:10--:13? - second position E7 chord to first position E and E7 chords
   * Where did he fret the run he plays from :19--:21? ???
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on April 02, 2017, 09:28:48 PM
I agree with Prof Scratchy on the first two, but "Kitchen Range" is played in C position capoed up to E.

The triplets are
X-X-X-X-5-3
down to a first position C chord, brushing the top three-ish strings, then a first position C7

The run is
third fret, 1st string; fourth fret, 2nd string; open 1st string; first fret, 2nd string; second fret, 3rd string; open 3rd string; first fret, 4th string; second fret, 4th string; third fret, 5th string, then a thumb brush on a C chord.

I think the move Harris does on the V chord, sliding the G notes on the 1st and 6th strings up to A, may be unique.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 03, 2017, 12:13:49 AM
Mmmmn...yes, you're right on the money, banjochris!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on April 03, 2017, 03:57:01 PM
Nothing to add to Scratchy & Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 05, 2017, 06:59:58 AM
Hi all,
It looks like all of the answers are in on the Barbecue Bob and William Harris puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.

For Barbecue Bob's "Hurry And Bring It Back It Back Home":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as everyone had it
   * For the descending passage from :10--:11, he does a melodic walk-down on the fifth string, from the fourth fret to the second fret, to the open fifth string.  As he fretted the fourth fret of the fifth string he also fretted the fourth fret of the fourth string, and brushed both of those strings with his thumb.  At the second fret, it sounds like he only hits the fifth string.  The walk-down has a sort of exotic sound, maybe because the fifth string melody takes the fourth string along for the ride.  George Carter did a similar move in "Rising River Blues", in the turn-around, but in the key of E and brushing the top four strings as he walked a partial barred down from the fourth to the second fret, with his melody on the first string.
   * From :32--:36, while droning with his thumb on the open fifth string, Barbecue Bob moves repeatedly from the open first string  to a slide from the first to the second fret on the second string, then to the second fret of the third string, back to the first string, back to the slide, back to the second fret of the third string, perseverating on the lick.

For William Harris' "Keep Your Man Out of Birmingham":
   * His playing position/tuning was Spanish tuning, as all had it
   * From :43--:45, William Harris played a descending chromatic line on the fourth string from the third fret down to the open string, while brushing open strings.  This is just as Prof Scratchy had it.

Didn't William Harris have a beautiful tone in Spanish tuning?

For William Harris' "Kitchen Range Blues:
   * His playing position was C position in standard tuning, as banjochris had it
   * From :10--:13, William Harris is brushing triplets on his first three strings, first fretting, going from third string to first, 0-3-5, then 0-1-0, and ending up on 3-1-0, the top of a C7 chord.
   * His run from :19--:21 was exactly as banjochris had it.  First triplet, third fret of the first string to fourth fret of the second string to the open first string.  Second triplet, first fret of the second string to third fret of the third string to open third string.  Third triplet, first fret of the fourth string to second fret of the fourth string to third fret of the fifth string, resolving on the downbeat of the next measure to a brushed C chord in the treble.  I think this run shows a Lonnie Johnson influence, and William Harris' "Early Morning Blues" shows an even stronger Lonnie Johnson influence, despite being played out of C, as was "Kitchen Range Blues".

Somehow or other, I had missed these two William Harris cuts in my previous listening and was surprised to find such clean copies of them in the Nico Fournier postings at youtube.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy, banjochris and blueshome for participating, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more puzzlers.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 05, 2017, 04:11:13 PM
Hi all,
My first post on the answers to the most recent puzzlers was done in too much haste, and has been edited to answer the questions more thoroughly and accurately.  For one thing, banjochris had William Harris' triplet run in "Kitchen Range Blues" spot on, and my first assessment of the run had the concluding note of the run wrong.  Please return to your normally scheduled programming.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on April 05, 2017, 04:37:59 PM
Going back to "Kitchen Range" for a minute, John, what do think of that V chord move Harris makes? I know there are tunes in E and Spanish and even A where you take the V chord for a two-fret ride occasionally, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone do it quite like that with a G chord.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 05, 2017, 05:00:08 PM
I agree with you, Chris, it is an odd move, and not one that I can recall hearing anyone else do that way on a C blues.  William Harris obviously liked the sound of the move, too, since he made it a recurring part of his accompaniment--he didn't just play it once and never return to it.  He didn't have all that many titles, but there is really a lot of variety in what he did.  He seems very under-recorded to me.  He was certainly no one-trick pony.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on April 05, 2017, 05:05:37 PM
Definitely not a one-trick pony. And I think there are at least 3 missing titles of his, so who knows, we may get a chance to hear some more one of these days.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 10, 2017, 11:59:59 AM
Hi all,
It seems like time for some more puzzlers.  The first is from David "Little David" Wylie, his "Shackles Around My Body", recorded for Regal in 1950.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/qt34It3so2I

INTRO

I says, chains around my legs, shackles around my body
I said, chains around my legs, shackles around my body
Says, I can't help myself, that's why the poor boy here

Says, I'm leavin, mama, goin' back North to stay
Yes, I'm leavin', mama, goin' back North to stay
Says, there ain't nothin' down South, yeah, that a poor man can do

I ain't got no one to love, got no one to care
Said, the only one I had to love, packed her trunk and gone (humming w/guitar)

I said, bye-bye, darling, guess I got to go
I said, bye-bye, darling, guess I got to go
'Cause I can't stay here, nothin' for the poor boy to do

OUTRO

The questions on "Shackles Around My Body" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did David Wylie use to play the song?
   * Where did David Wylie fret his IV chord from 1:00--1:06?
   * What song/performance does David Wylie emulate from 1:53--1:56, with his unison bass line and humming?

The second puzzler is also from David Wylie, and it is his performance of "Baby, You're Gonna Change Your Mind".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/EuY8vjZi13c

INTRO

Darling, darling, you better change your mind
Darling, darling, you better change your mind
Say, you don't change your mind, baby, says, it's gon' be too late

Say, when I come home last night, baby was out with 'nother man
When I come home last night, baby was out with 'nother man
Says, you don't change your mind, well, it gonna be too late

See you don't change your mind, darlin', somebody sure gonna ride your funeral
If you don't change your mind, somebody gonna ride your funeral alone
'Cause it's gon' be something goin' wrong, baby, before it be too late

I say, darlin', darlin', you oughta quit your barrelhouse ways
I said, darlin', darlin', you oughta quit your barrelhouse ways
Say, if you don't quit your barrelhouse ways, baby, gon' be too late

SOLO (Spoken:  Come here, boy!)

Say, you don't change your mind, well, it's gon' be too late

The questions on "Baby, You're Gonna Change Your Mind" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did David Wylie use to play the song?
   * Where did David Wylie fret the ascending triplet bass run and bend from :23--24?
   * Where is David Wylie fretting the bend he plays in the treble from 1:39--1:34, and what two notes does he hit in the bass under it?

The third puzzler is Robert Curtis Smith's "Katy Mae".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/BYfwXpn8WSw

INTRO

Katy Mae, Katy Mae, well, now you know you don't treat me right
Katy Mae, Katy Mae, well, now you know you don't treat me right
You stays out all night long, don't do a thing but run around

Yes, you know I love you, that's why you treat me like you do
Yeah, you know I love you, that's when you treat me like you do
But that's all right, baby, that's all right for you

You's a no-good weed, and the cows won't mow you down
You's a no-good weed, and the cows won't mow you down
You stays out all night long, don't do a thing but like a clown

SOLO

The questions on "Katy Mae" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Robert Curtis Smith use to play the song?
   * Where did Robert Curtis Smith fret what he plays from :31--:32, and how does it function in his chord progression?
   * Where did Robert Curtis Smith fret what he plays from 1:45--1:46?

As always, please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, April 13.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on April 13, 2017, 12:10:21 PM
For "Shackles Around My Body" I'm hearing David Wylie play out of A standard (capo at about 3rd fret).
His IV chord from 1:00--1:06 I'm hearing him walk up the open 6th string through 1st fret to the 2nd fret and play a D9 2nd, 1st frets and open for the 3rd, 2nd & 1st string respectively. Nothing is jumping out at me for the song he is emulating from 1:53--1:56. I need to listen to this some more.
   
"Baby, You're Gonna Change Your Mind" I'm hearing out of E standard (again capo at about 3rd fret).
The ascending triplet bass run and bend from at 23--24 I'm hearing on the 5th string open, 3rd and 4th frets, then 4th string 2nd fret and bend at the 5th fret.  The bend he plays in the treble from 1:39--1:44 I'm hearing at the 8th fret, 2nd string but I'm not sure about the two notes  in the bass under it, open 6th and 5th string at 7th fret?

For "Katy Mae" I'm hearing Robert Curtis Smith in A standard, though not sure about where he frets what he plays from :31--:32 or how it functions in his chord progression. Is it an E7 (V chord) played with the 1st string open, 2nd str at fret 5, 3rd str at fret 7, 4th str at fret 6?
Where he frets what he plays from 1:45--1:46 I'll say he slides up to the 3rd fret on the 2nd string, hits the 3rd string at the 5th fret, returns to the 2nd string 3rd fret then bends the 3rd string at the 5th fret.

Loved all 3 tunes by another couple of guys I'm not familiar with.  Thanks!


Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 13, 2017, 02:22:40 PM
The questions on "Shackles Around My Body" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did David Wylie use to play the song? - A standard capoed up to around C
   * Where did David Wylie fret his IV chord from 1:00--1:06? - 2x0210
   * What song/performance does David Wylie emulate from 1:53--1:56, with his unison bass line and humming? ???


The questions on "Baby, You're Gonna Change Your Mind" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did David Wylie use to play the song? - E capoed to G
   * Where did David Wylie fret the ascending triplet bass run and bend from :23--24? 5/0 5/4 4/2  4/5b
   * Where is David Wylie fretting the bend he plays in the treble from 1:39--1:34, and what two notes does he hit in the bass under it? - 2/8b  plays 5/7 and 4/6 in bass


The questions on "Katy Mae" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Robert Curtis Smith use to play the song? - Spanish
   * Where did Robert Curtis Smith fret what he plays from :31--:32, and how does it function in his chord progression? V chord x20230
   * Where did Robert Curtis Smith fret what he plays from 1:45--1:46? -3/0 3/3b 2/1 3/3b 3/0 3/0


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on April 13, 2017, 02:37:27 PM
Pretty sure the song Wylie is imitating is "Crawling Kingsnake" by John Lee Hooker.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 13, 2017, 08:43:17 PM
David Wylie - Shackles Around My Body

A position Standard Tuning, Capo 3rd fret

David?s IV Chord from 1:00 to 1:06 sounds something like this:

Code: [Select]
E--0--
B--1--
G--2--
D--4--
A--0--
E-----

Im not sure what song his is emulating at 1:53 to 1:56 but the bass run sounds like this to me:

Code: [Select]
E-------------------------------
B-------------------------------
G-------------------------------
D-------------------------------
A------0--3-5-3------0--3-0-----
E--0-3------------0-3-----------

with some bending on the fretted notes on the 5th string


David Wylie - Baby, You're Gonna Change Your Mind" are:
 
E position Standard Tuning, Capo 3rd Fret
   
The triplet bass run and bend from :23--24 sounds like this to me:

Code: [Select]
E-----------
B-----------
G-----------
D-----2-5b--
A--3-4------
E-----------

The bend from 1:39--1:34 sounds like the 3rd fret on the first string. I was having trouble hearing two bass notes but I think it goes something like open 6th string then 4th string 2nd fret for the bass. I can only really hear the note on the 4th string 2nd fret so I'm guess at the open 6th string to start it off.

As for Robert Curtis Smith's "Katy Mae" I don't have time to go over it right now but I'll venture a guess that it is in A Spanish Tuning.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 14, 2017, 10:33:28 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers on the David Wylie and Robert Curtis Smith puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 17, 2017, 09:27:11 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intended to respond to the David Wylie and Robert Curtis Smith puzzlers has done so, so I'll post the answers.

For David Wylie's "Shackles Around My Body":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * David Wylie's IV chord from 1:00--1:06 had him walking into a D9 at the base of the neck from the open sixth string, ending up with 2-0-0-2-1-0, going from the sixth string to the first.  This is essentially what Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy had.
   * For the passage from 1:53--1:56 where David Wylie played a bass line in unison with his humming, what I had in mind that I thought he was emulating was John Lee Hooker's "Hobo Blues", though what David Wylie played is by no means a note for note steal of what John Lee played.  Here is "Hobo Blues", and listen from :30--:38.  The fact that David Wylie could so easily convert an idea originally played in Spanish tuning and convert it to A position in standard tuning shows how closely related the sounds of those tunings/positions are.

https://youtu.be/1kQlRQRGdfQ

For David Wylie's "Baby, You're Gonna Change Your Mind":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning as all who responded had it--well done!
   * The ascending triplet followed by a bend that David Wylie played from :23--:24 was exactly as Old Man Ned and EddieD had it, with the triplet starting at the third fret of the fifth string continuing to the fourth fret of the fifth string and the second fret of the fourth string, followed by a bend of the fourth string at the fifth fret--well done!
   * I posted the time incorrectly for the last question in this puzzler--it should have read from 1:39--1:44.  All the responders knew where I meant, despite my mistake.  The bend David Wylie did in that passage was at the third fret of the first string, and underneath it, he first hit the open fifth string and then hits on the fourth string second fret.

I sure wish David Wylie had been recorded more.  He evidently had only one day in the recording studio, in 1950, when he was only 22 years old.  Two of the four titles he recorded there were issued and the other two remained unissued until Biograph Records put them out in the late '60s.  I like the freedom of David Wylie's approach on these early recordings, his willingness to step outside of the form when he had something special he wanted to say instrumentally.  He's clearly an East Coast player, but the influence of musicians from outside that area, like John Lee Hooker, really enriches what he had to say.

For Robert Curtis Smith's "Katy Mae":
   * His playing position/tuning was Spanish tuning, as Prof Scratchy and Eddie D had it.
   * From :31--:32, Robert Curtis Smith was playing a V chord, as Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy described it, and his fingering of it was really ingenious, and one that I'm surprised had not been used more by players working in Spanish tuning.  He simply took the common fingering of the IV chord at the base of the neck in Spanish, 0-2-0-1, going from the fifth to the second string (with the two outer strings open), and moved it up two frets, so that he ended up with 0-4-0-3, going from the fifth to the second string.  It sounds really good, too--by leaving the third string open, he gets a nice interior drone happening.
   * From 1:45--1:46, Robert Curtis Smith played the following fill:  While already fretting the first fret of the second string, Robert Curtis Smith pulled off from the second fret of the second string to the first fret of the second string, continuing down to the third fret of the third string, going back to the first fret of the second string and finally resolving to the bent third fret of the third string.  He does the lick really quickly, and it has a wonderful slippery sound, especially the pull-off with which he begins the lick.  Try it out--it's a beauty!

Robert Curtis Smith is another musician who I wish had been recorded more.  i believe Michael Roach told me that Paul Oliver told him that he had an entire album's worth of music of Robert Curtis Smith in his archive that has never been released.  Who knows if it ever will be?

Thanks to Old Man Ned, Prof Scratchy and EddieD for participating in the puzzlers, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some more puzzlers.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 21, 2017, 03:58:06 PM
Hi all,
It seems like it's about time for another set of puzzlers.  The first is from Sam Townsend, "Lily Kimball Blues".  I don't think anything is known about Sam Townsend in the biographical sense, but he sounds like he may have been an oldster when he recorded.  Here is "Lily Kimball Blues":

https://youtu.be/7QCdQQQp4_Y

INTRO

Tell me, Lily Kimball, what did you do to me?
Aw, tell me, Lily Kimball, what did you do to me?
These Lily Kimball Blues is nearly killing me

It's hard, it's hard, but I suppose it's fair
It's hard, it's hard, but I suppose it's fair
These Lily Kimball Blues won't let me rest nowhere

I love you, Lily Kimball, don't want no other one
I love you, Lily Kimball, don't want no other one
It ain't too late now, to make up for all I done

It's hard to love you, Lily, you love somebody else
It's hard to love you, Lily, you love somebody else
I believe it's gonna make me, grieve myself to death

I believe I'm goin' crazy, my mind I'm 'bout to lose
I believe I'm goin' crazy, my mind I'm 'bout to lose
If I don't get over these Lily Kimball Blues

When I'm blue, it's good to have you 'round
Aa-when I'm blue, it's good to have you 'round
'Cause when you start loving, it bring my kindness down

SOLO

I'm going to the river, tie my hands behind
I'm going to the river, tie my hands behind
And let that Tennessee water, satisfy my mind

Can't you see, Lily, I want you to understand
Can't you see, Lily, I want you to understand
Take me back, Lily, I'll be a different man

The questions on "Lily Kimball Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Sam Townsend use to play the song?
   * What does Sam Townsend play as :03 moves into :04 that helps identify his playing position/tuning?

The second puzzler is Curley Weaver's recording of "Sweet Petunia".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/hdAYdQrXEqg

I got a gal, lives down by the jail, sign on the door, "Sweet petuni' for sale"
REFRAIN: Lord, I'm wild about my tuni', only thing I crave
Lord, I'm wild about my tuni', only thing I crave
Ah, sweet petuni', gonna carry me to my grave

Got up this mornin', 'bout half past four, bed fell down, I had suspenders on the floor
REFRAIN: Lord, I'm wild about my tuni', only thing I crave
Ah, I'm wild about my tuni', only thing I crave
Ah, sweet petuni', gonna carry me to my grave

I got a gal, she's long and tall, every time she do the shimmy, I holler, "Hot dog!"
REFRAIN: Lord, I'm wild about my tuni', only thing I crave
Well, I'm wild about my tuni', only thing I crave
Ah, sweet petuni', gonna carry me to my grave

I could holler like a mountain jack, go up on the mountain and bring my tuni' back
REFRAIN: Well, I'm wild about my tuni', only thing I crave
Well, I'm wild about my tuni', only thing I crave
Ah, sweet petuni', gonna carry me to my grave

I've got a gal, that lives behind my jail, got a sign on my door, "Sweet petuni' for sale"
REFRAIN: Lord, I'm wild about my tuni', only thing I crave
Lord, I'm wild about my tuni', only thing I crave
Ah, sweet petuni', gonna carry me to my grave

Way back yonder in one-o-one, beaver had petunis but you couldn't get none
REFRAIN: Lord, I'm wild about my tuni', only thing I crave
Lord, I'm wild about my tuni', only thing I crave
Ah, sweet petuni', gonna carry me to my grave

The questions on "Sweet Petunia" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Curley Weaver use to play the song?
   * What two notes did Curley Weaver play under his IV chord in his first verse accompaniment, at :09 and :11?
   * Where did Curley Weave fret what he played in the treble from :11--:13?
   * Where did Curley Weaver fret his treble signature lick that he played from :55--:58 and elsewhere during the course of the song?

The third puzzler is Carolina Slim's "Black Cat Trail".  Here is his performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/8UvNMPjwcWs

INTRO SOLO

I laid down last night, I couldn't even take my rest
I laid down last night, I couldn't even take my rest
You know, my mind started to rambling, man, like a wild geese out in the West

SOLO

My baby's gone and left me, she won't even write back to me
She's gone away and left me, she won't even write back to me
She keeps me so disgusted, bothered as a man can be

I don't know why, but I sure don't get no mail
I don't know why, sure don't get no mail
It must be one of them old walkin' black cats, been walking, walkin' all over my trail

The questions on "Black Cat Trail" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Carolina Slim use to play the song?
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret the three ascending chordal slides that open the song and that are answered by a treble run?
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret the phrase from :31--:35, starting with the chordal shot in the treble, followed by the descending run, re-ascending and ending on a held chord while he runs his right hand?

As always, please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers--no transcription software, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, April 24.  Thanks to those who participate and I hope folks enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on April 24, 2017, 10:27:39 PM
Here's what I hear:

?Lily Kimball?
G standard
from :03 to :04 he plays a slightly bent 3rd fret of the third string, then the open second string. That pretty much limits it to G or Spanish/DGDGBE, and then his G-A-B-C walk-up in the bass pretty much clinches it as standard.


?Sweet Petunia?
G standard, capoed up to A
under the IV chord he alternates between 2-1-0 and 0-1-0 on the top three strings.
from :11 to :13 he takes the 2-1-0 he?s playing on the top three strings and moves it up a fret to 3-2-0
treble lick is
3rd fret 1st string
open 1st string
3rd fret 2nd string
3rd fret (bent) 3rd string
open 2nd string
3rd fret 2nd string
open 1st string
3rd fret 1st string
2nd fret 1st string
1st fret 1st string


?Black Cat Trail?
drop D tuned up or capoed up a fret or so
ascending chords is Lightnin?s lick of running a 1st position C chord up 4 frets to E, but this time in drop D, so only running the C chord up to D and ending by playing the chord with the pinky playing the high A on the 5th fret of the 1st string.

the run:
6-5 on the top two strings
5th fret 2nd string
3rd fret 2nd string
1st fret 2nd string
2nd fret 3rd string
open 3rd string
3rd fret 4th string (bent a bit)
open 4th string
slide from 3rd fret of 5th string up to 5th fret for unison D note
back to the C-shaped D chord with pinky playing the 5th fret of the 1st string


sorry for these lengthy run descriptions -- is there somewhere on the site that explains how to enter some tab easily? I've seen people do it but don't know how.
Chris

PS I wonder if Carolina Slim's stealing so many licks from him turned Lightnin' off of playing in D -- he sure didn't do it much in later years, which is a shame. And Slim is an excellent player, too.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 25, 2017, 01:06:29 AM
Yes, I agree with Chris's answers, although I got the Carolina Slim one wrong, hearing it in E.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on April 25, 2017, 06:50:01 AM
Yes, I agree with Chris's answers, although I got the Carolina Slim one wrong, hearing it in E.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I thought it was in E at first as well but the giveaway is the runs at the end of verses. You never hear Lightnin's E lick at 3-4-0 on the top 3 strings, plus the runs almost always end with that slide on the fifth string.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 25, 2017, 07:02:03 AM
True detective work! Plus the two Es: ears and experience.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on April 25, 2017, 11:12:42 AM
I'm listening at work with no guitar to help me out but here's a stab of at least the key/tunings:

Sam Townsend "Lily Limball"
Key of G, standard tuning- At :03 you can hear the bent 3rd fret 3rd string immediately followed by an open 2nd string.

Curley Weaver "Sweet Petunia"
I'm having a hard time hearing this one at work (wish I had some headphones).
I'm pretty sure this one is in G too, but capo'd up a bit. The lick he plays after many of his vocal lines sounds like it may have a similar 3rd fret 3rd string bend followed by open 2nd string in there (like in "Lily" above.)

Carolina Slim "Black Cat Trail"
Sounds like key of E standard tuning tuned a step or so lower. His playing is very similar to Lighnin' Hopkins, sliding C shape with pinky on 1st string up to E (bass note at 7th fret of 5th string)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on April 25, 2017, 12:20:43 PM
In complete agreement with Banjo Chris for Sam Townsend's "Lily Kimball Blues" and the rationale for going for G standard.  This was the tune I was most confident on.

Curley Weavers "Sweet Petunia" I wondered into a maze, then the fog came down, it got dark and I got scared  ie got lost on this one.  I was hearing a F note on the 6th string at 19secs and couldn't take it from there.

Carolina Slim's Black Cat Trail I was also hearing in E, likely swayed by the Lightin' Hopkins similarities, but Banjo Chris' reply of Dropped D with the C chord slid up to D works for me. I'm impressed, by Banjo Chris and Carolina Slim...but for different reasons :-)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on April 25, 2017, 02:58:06 PM
Curley Weavers "Sweet Petunia" I wondered into a maze, then the fog came down, it got dark and I got scared  ie got lost on this one.  I was hearing a F note on the 6th string at 19secs and couldn't take it from there.

Weaver snaps the hell out of the open 6th string after his first IV chord lick, but he also mutes it, so it has kind of a weird sound. A very cool, weird sound.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 28, 2017, 08:56:38 AM
Hi all,
It seems as though everyone who wished to respond to the most recent set of puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.

For Sam Townsend's "Lily Kimball Blues":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * From :03--:04, Sam Townsend moves from the third fret of the third string to the open second string (minor third to major third).  That crossing of strings to achieve that sound is very characteristic of G position in standard tuning, as Chris noted (though it can also be found in Spanish and DGDGBE tunings, as he noted, too).  The fact that Sam Townsend voices his IV chord that follows with its root in the bass pretty much eliminates Spanish and DGDGBE tunings from the running, leaving only G position in standard tuning.

For Curley Weaver's "Sweet Petunia":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning.  I thought this was a fairly tough identification to make.  It's one of those situations where Curley Weaver never hits the low root of the I chord which is just sitting there at the third fret of the sixth string, pretty low-hanging fruit, and I find it tricky sometimes when players omit seemingly obvious roots to hit in the bass.  As with the Sam Townsend song, though, the arrival of the IV chord makes it clear that the song is played in G position in standard tuning rather than in Spanish tuning.
   * I phrased the second question poorly.  What I should have said is "What notes did Curley Weaver strike with his thumb in the bass under the IV chord, at :09 and :11?", the answer to which is the third fret of the fifth string and the open sixth string, which he pops, as Chris noted.
   * What Curley Weaver frets from :11--:13 in the treble is somewhat odd-sounding.  He thumb-brushes 3-2 on the third and second strings twice, with each brush followed by the index picking the open first string, then thumb-brushes 0-0 on the third and second strings.  Try it out, it really is kind of strange.
   * Curley Weaver's treble signature lick from :55--:58 is exactly as Chris had it.  Weaver used this lick in the seventh and eighth and eleventh and twelfth bars of his form.  It starts on the + of beat one with the third fret of the first string.  On 2+ he goes from the open first string to the third fret of the second string.  On 3+ he goes from the third fret of the third string to the open second string.  On 4+ he goes from the third fret of the second string to the open first string.  On beat one of the next measure, he hits the third fret of the first string.  On 2+, he goes from the second fret of the first string to the first fret of the first string, tying that first fret of the first string into beat three of that measure and concluding the run.

For Carolina Slim's "Black Cat Trail":
   * His playing position was D position in Dropped-D tuning.  Like all of you, I initially thought he was playing in E position in standard tuning, and it wasn't until the piece went a little ways that I realized he was doing some things that wouldn't work in E position.
   * The three ascending slid chords that Carolina Slim opens the song with are as Chris described them--taking a C chord fretted X-3-2-0-1-3, and plucking only the fretted strings (omitting the sixth and third strings) sliding the shape up two frets, intact.  This requires some real finesse in the right hand to sound the move cleanly, and Carolina Slim pulls it off with impressive aplomb.
   * Carolina Slim's run from :31--:35 was fretted as follows.  It starts on beat two of the eleventh bar of the form.  On beat two he hits the chordal shot at 5-6-5 on the first three strings (D shape three frets up) to begin a triplet, following that shot with the third fret of the second string going to the first fret of the second string.  On beat three he plays another triplet, going from the second fret of the third string to the first fret of the third string, then to the open third string.  On beat four, he plays another triplet, moving from the third fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string, followed by a slide into the fifth fret of the fifth string.  On 1+ of the twelfth bar, he goes from the open sixth string to the third fret of the second string, fretted out of a C shape moved up two frets.  On beat 2 of the twelfth bar, he plays a triplet in the treble, going from the fifth fret of the first string to the third fret of the second string and back to the fifth fret of the first string, hitting the open sixth string with his thumb on the first and third notes of the triplet. On beat 3, he pinches the open sixth string, the third fret of the second string and the fifth fret of the first string.

I think these Carolina Slim cuts where he's channeling Lightnin' Hopkins are really unusual, in that they are so very derivative of Lightnin', but are at the same time so excitingly and expertly played.  A lot of East Coast players who were roughly contemporaneous with Lightnin' were really influenced by his music--Baby Tate, Pernell Charity, John Dee Holman and of course Carolina Slim (Edward Harris) all show a lot of Lightnin' influence.  Slim stands out, though, in the extent to which he really "got it", what Lightnin' was doing.  It's so unfortunate that Slim died while still a very young man.  Most musicians in vernacular styles start out emulating their heroes, and eventually find their own voices.  Slim wasn't given the luxury of the time to become whom he might have, had he lived a bit longer.  Basically, he was robbed, as is anyone who dies young like that.

Thanks to all who participated, and I think people really did well with some subtle identifications on this set of puzzlers.  I'd like to continue to encourage more folks to participate.  The stakes are so low, really, and you might learn something, certainly more than you do by simply waiting for the answers to be posted.  I hope folks enjoyed the tunes and I'll look for more puzzlers.
All best,
Johnm
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on April 28, 2017, 12:25:10 PM

sorry for these lengthy run descriptions -- is there somewhere on the site that explains how to enter some tab easily? I've seen people do it but don't know how.
Chris


Chris I usually enter tab when I answer. I type it up in notepad because all the characters are equal size or in microsoft word using the courier new font as all the characters are the same size. To keep the characters all the same size when I post I use the code button which looks like a number sign or hash tag. I just notice there is an option for courier font  when submitting a post which may do the trick as well when entering tab.



E--3-------3-
B--0------0--
G--0-----0---
D--0----0----
A--2---2-----
E--3--3------



I just tested the courier font and yes it works great
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on April 28, 2017, 01:20:42 PM
Thanks, Eddie -- I appreciate that a lot!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 02, 2017, 10:37:33 AM
Hi all,
I thought I would post some new puzzlers, and since it has been a while since I've asked only the playing position/tuning of each performance, I thought I would do that this time.  Here are the songs:

The first is "I'm Going Home", from Hammie Nixon and Sleepy John Estes.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/qQpuGxpcf7A

What playing position/tuning is the guitar being played in on "Going Home"?

The second song is Pigmeat Pete and Catjuice Charlie's "Do It Right".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/DRG3CrtTQDk

What playing position/tuning is being used to play "Do It Right"?

The third song is Bo Jones' "Back Door Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/M1FzZMqYwQE

INTRO

Early one morning, I set down in my door
I says, early one morning, I set down in my door
Lord, I was sittin' here, wond'in', "Where in the world can a good man go?"

I hear my rider holl'in', 'way up on the hill
Said, I hear my rider holl'in', 'way up on the hill
Said, I know it's my rider, got a voice like a whip-or-will

SOLO

I'll get your ticket, gon' send you away from here
I'm gon' get your ticket, gon' send you all away from here
Lord, and if you never come back, Lord, I will never care

I'm gon' write my name up on my baby's back door
I'm gonna write my name up on my baby's back door
So she can see my name if she never sees me no more

What playing position/tuning is being used to play "Back Door Blues"?

As always, please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answer, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday morning, May 4.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 05, 2017, 03:54:57 AM
I'll say D for the first one; F capoed at the second fret forr the second; and C tuned a half step low for the last one.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on May 05, 2017, 04:39:10 AM
Sleepy John C capoed to D, I'm with the Prof for the others.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on May 05, 2017, 09:17:51 AM
I'll say D for the first one; F capoed at the second fret forr the second; and C tuned a half step low for the last one.

Agree on all these.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on May 05, 2017, 02:50:26 PM
C position for Bo Jones.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 06, 2017, 10:42:08 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Hammie/Sleepy John, Pigmeat Pete/Catjuice Charlie and Bo Jones puzzlers?  Answer one or two of them, or all three.  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 07, 2017, 05:44:41 AM
In agreement with other folks, D for Sleepy John Estes, F for Pigmeat Pete and Catjuice Charlie's "Do It Right and C for Bo Jones
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 08, 2017, 11:07:53 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the most recent set of puzzlers has done so by now, so I will post the answers.  As it turned out, the very first response, from Prof Scratchy, had all the playing positions/tunings for the different songs identified correctly.  Well done, Prof!  Here are the identifications for the songs:

For Hammie Nixon's and Sleepy John Estes' recording of "I'm Going Home", the guitar was played in D position in standard tuning.  Though Sleepy John is identified as the guitarist on this recording, I am dubious.  His preferred playing position, by a great margin, in his early recordings was C position in standard tuning, and I'm hard put to remember any songs he played out of D position in standard tuning back then.  Moreover, having seen Sleepy John perform at the stage of his career when this cut was recorded, I didn't see him do anything nearly as active as the guitar playing on this cut.  I wonder if Yank Rachell might have been the guitarist.  In any event, whoever the guitarist was on the cut, it was played out of D position in standard tuning.

For Pigmeat Pete and Catjuice Charlie's "Do It Right", the guitar was played out of F position in standard tuning, and all who responded on the song had the identification right.  All of the songs I know of by this duo were played out of F position.  The two other songs, "On Our Turpentine Farm" and "The Gin Done Done It" can be found elsewhere on this site and in Weeniepedia.

For Bo Jones' "Back Door Blues", the playing position was C position in standard tuning.  I believe the guitarist for this cut and for Bo Jones' other cut, "Leavenworth Prison Blues", may be Carl Davis, who accompanied Texas Alexander on a few recordings (assuming Bo Jones did not accompany himself). 

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzlers and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for more to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 08, 2017, 08:52:18 PM
Hi all,
We have looked at so many songs in this thread over the course of the past two years, and it occurred to me today:  I wonder how many folks have figured out any of the songs that we've discussed in this thread.  I know that Gordon (Joe Paul) figured out Boy Green's "A and B Blues" a couple of years ago.  I'm curious--has anyone else figured out any of the songs in this thread?  In looking at the list, I discovered that I've figured out more of them than I would have thought.  Here are ones I've figured out so far:
   * "Up And Down Bulding the KC Line"--Little Brother
   * "Trouble"--Reese Crenshaw
   * "French Blues"--Frank Evans
   * "Baton Rouge Rag"--Joe Harris
   * "Guitar Blues"--Johnny St. Cyr
   * "Too Many Women Blues"--Willie Lane
   * "Going Where The Monon Crosses The Yellow Dog"--Scrapper Blackwell
   * "Hollandale Blues"--Sam Chatmon
   * "I'm A Crawling Black Snake"--Lightnin' Hopkins
   * "Run Here, Faro"--Myrt Holmes
   * "Pretty Polly"--E. C. Ball
   * "See What You Done Done"--Baby Tate
   * "Just A Note"--Ralph Willis

A couple of these I had figured out before I put them up in the thread.  But knowing what positions/tunings the songs are played in is the most important knowledge if you want to play the songs as they were recorded.  From there on out, it's just a battle of attrition, hanging in there and plugging away until you figure a song out to your own satisfaction.  Try it, you'll like it!
All best,
Johnm
   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on May 08, 2017, 09:08:34 PM
I haven't figured out any exactly, but have copped a few licks. I don't even remember which song it was, but there was an A blues with a descending diminished chord turnaround that I have played quite a bit - it also goes from IV7 to iv7 instead of the usual 2 bars of IV7.
The other song I worked on, but not tried to copy exactly is Levester "Big Lucky" Carter - Swing Low, Sweet Chariot. It sounds so cool.
Thanks John for introducing so much music to me, and us.

Dave
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Zoharbareket on May 09, 2017, 09:05:04 AM
I've *attempted* to figure out a couple or so. Not necessarily with much success, but I did try.
This thread is an absolute Jem,
Thank you John for being a super teacher!!
Zohar

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 09, 2017, 10:03:53 AM
I had a go at Joe Harris's Baton Rouge Rag and then bought the transcription from you to see how close I'd got  .....close'ish... :) 

I also had a crack at Pink Andersons Fly Away (love Pink Anderson) but mainly I've been using the puzzlers to improve my hearing and transcribing which has helped me with some Hacksaw Harney, Precious Bryant and Luke Jordan tunes plus a couple of verses of Blind Blake's Seaboard Stomp when I was feeling particularly adventurous. 

I honestly never thought I would be able to get to a position where I would be able to figure out a good part of what these guys are doing.  It really does pay to stick at it because when you get it spot on you seem to know you've got it and when you know you are close to it, it still sounds pretty good (to my ears anyway) and gives me a greater appreciation have how terrific these guys were.

I really do appreciate the time and effort you put into this thread John.  For me, it's been a terrific learning place.

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 09, 2017, 12:32:11 PM
Trouble and French Blues are the ones I've had a go at, but only with the benefit of lessons from Johnm! I got somewhere with Baton Rouge Rag too after reading the answer to the puzzler. Great thread, and one which has introduced us all to so much new material.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on May 10, 2017, 01:29:35 PM
Still working on "Hacksaw's Down South Blues". I think I've got it mostly, but to get it to the original tempo will be a challenge.

I'm sure there are others, but can't remember them offhand. There are also some tunes, that I've had to reconsider, after reading about them on this thread, although I don't always try to recreate the original version note to note. Still, it's nice to know how they should be played, properly. 

Cheers

Pan
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 10, 2017, 05:33:54 PM
Thanks very much, Dave, Zohar, Old Man Ned, Prof Scratchy and Pan for the feedback.  Working on finding the songs and artists for this thread has been such an education for me, and has impressed on me in a way that I never fully appreciated before what an incredibly rich tradition the Blues was during the period when it was simultaneously a Pop music and a Folk music.  There's a way that focusing on re-issues of commercial recordings encourages a sort of ranking of players, or a hierarchic assigning of value to players based on how skillful, or accomplished, or "important" they were.  When you start to listen to field recordings, though, or later commercial recordings that have been neglected by virtue of being "Post-War", you realize that the hierarchic approach to assigning value to musicians really misses the boat.  There were so many players and singers who may not have had a huge range, but who were nonetheless so strong in what they did, and had their own things to say and their own way of saying those things.  Ranking players is beside the point because it shows so little understanding of what the experience of music-making is for the person making the music. 

More and more, I'm feeling that is where the essence of the music lies--What do you have to say in your music, and how do you say it?  I think imitation is the beginning of all learning, but it shouldn't be where we're stuck in perpetuity.  The materials of music don't belong to anybody--they are there for all of us to draw upon and use in the ways that sound and feel best and most natural to us.  Search for and find your own voice.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on May 11, 2017, 08:07:14 AM
Great post, John. I haven't always participated in this thread but I'm always reading and learning from it. Thanks for all your work.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jpeters609 on May 11, 2017, 08:49:04 AM
I'd like to second Lastfirstface's comment. The puzzlers are beyond my ability at this point, but I read them all with great interest and believe I glean a thing or two from them, even as a novice. Thanks for your generosity in putting these together.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: orvillej on May 11, 2017, 09:30:28 AM
I need a "like" button for Johnm's last comment.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on May 11, 2017, 10:06:00 AM
Perfectly stated, John. All of the things you mention--the so-called "hierarchies,"etc., --tell us everything except how life was lived from the inside out by the people who made--and/or continue to make--the music. There are many musicians who are greatly underrepresented and underappreciated, as you say. But that doesn't lessen the quality and value of their music one iota, IMHO.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 12, 2017, 08:48:45 AM
Hi all,
I thought I would post some more puzzlers.  It felt good to step back a moment and come up for air and think about things a bit.  The first two puzzlers are from Frankie Lee Sims, and are from sessions that I'd never heard before, on which he was joined by a lap-steel player.  It really sounds great to me.  Frankie Lee was one of those musicians, like Barbecue Bob or Tommy McClennan, who always sounded so intensely alive.  The first cut is "Don't Forget Me, Baby", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/rHHVqxwyKiY

INTRO

Well, I looked at the sun this mornin', boy, and the sun was shining warm
Yes, I look ed at the sun this mornin', I declare the sun was shining warm
I got to thinkin' about my woman, boy, and I kept walkin' on

Well, I said, "Baby, please bring your clothes back home."
I said, "Baby, will you please bring your clothes back home.
Says, I'm gonna weep and worry, little woman, but it ain't gonna last me long

Well, if it ain't one thing, baby, you keep me worried all the time
Yes, it ain't but one thing, baby, you keep me worried all the time
But I'll tell you one thing about it, I ain't never gonna give you my last dime

But every good-bye ain't gone, baby, shut-eye sure ain't sleep
Every good-bye ain't gone, little woman, and the shut-eye sure ain't sleep
But I said one thing about it, baby, will you please remember me?

I said, Lord, oh Lord, Lord, oh Lord, oh Lord
I said, Lord, oh Lord, Lord, oh Lord, oh Lord
Said, I used to be your regular, little woman, but now I've got to be your dog

You'd rather be an old man's sweetheart, than to be a young man's slave
Yes, you'd rather be an old man's sweetheart, boy, to be a young man's slave
But, I said a old man'll give you his money, young man will throw it away

I said, yonder she goes, please go call her back
I said, yond' she goes, please go call her back
Boys, she ain't too small, and the girl, she ain't too fat

OUTRO
 
The questions on "Don't Forget Me, Baby" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Frankie Lee Sims use to play the song?
   * Frankie Lee opens his intro with a descending run played twice.  He then plays an answering ascending run up, then works his way back down.  Where did he fret the ascending/descending run?
   * Where did Frankie Lee fret the bass run that follows the tagline of his first verse?

The second puzzler from Frankie Lee Sims is his "Single Man Blues", which must have been recorded at the same session as "Don't Forget Me, Baby".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/ZoVBuQbELog

INTRO

I said, "There yonder she goes, man, please go call her back."
I say, "Yonder she goes, man, please go call her back.
Lord, she taken my last cent, even taken my old raggedy hat."

Well, some folks say, man, what a woman will do, boy, she gets your money and then, she, uh, through with you
But a married woman, boy, she's best one that ever been born
Boy, you don't have to worry about her, man, you ain't got her all day long

'Cause a single woman will swear, boy, she love you all her life
Yes, a single woman will swear, man, love you all her life
Meet another man 'round the corner, declare, tell that same lie twice

Blues in the mornin', blues late at night, well, the blues I had man, ain't been doin' me right
I'm gonna let you go back home, oh woman, where you belong
'Cause you ain't doin' nothin', baby, teachin' me right from wrong

I said, Lord, oh Lord, you know our children nowadays, they don't pay their Mother no mind, but stay gone all night, their Mama's in her back door cryin'
I said, "Lord have mercy, on this old world today.
Man, get a no-good woman, boys, then she wanta have her way."

SOLO

Well, If I'd a-knowed it, boys, Lord, this mornin' at the break of day, I woulda let my woman went on and had her way
But I said, "Bye-bye, baby, honey baby, if you call that gone.
'Cause you ain't done nothin', baby, breakin' up my sweet happy home."

SOLO

The questions on "Single Man Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Frankie Lee Sims use to play the song?
   * Where did Frankie Lee fret the up/down run that concludes his intro?
   * What did Frankie Lee do to alter the feel of the time at the beginning of his final solo?

The third puzzler is from Luther Stoneham, about whom I know nothing in the biographical sense.  The song is his "January 11, 1949 Blues", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/yKLujrI_vws

INTRO

Lord, it was January eleven, Lord, it was nineteen-hundred and forty-nine
Lord, it was January eleven, Lord, it was nineteen-hundred and forty-nine
My woman left me, I declare, was almost blind

SOLO

I said, I love my baby, but my baby won't behave
I says, I love my baby, but my baby won't behave (Spoken: What you gonna do, Luther?)
I'm gonna get me a hard-shootin' pistol, Lord, and put her down in her grave

SOLO (Spoken: Play the blues)

The questions on "January 11, 1949 Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Luther Stoneham use to play the song?
   * Where did Luther Stoneham fret the fill he plays at :18--19, and what note does he hit twice in the bass under it?
   
As always, please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, May 15.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 16, 2017, 06:25:14 AM
The questions on "Don't Forget Me, Baby" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Frankie Lee Sims use to play the song? - A standard
   * Frankie Lee opens his intro with a descending run played twice.  He then plays an answering ascending run up, then works his way back down.  Where did he fret the ascending/descending run? - holding a long A chord he plays : 1str/ 5 3 ;2str /5 3; 3rd str/ 5b 2. Then he ascends on 2nd str/ 2 3 4 5 ;1st str/ 5 2 ;3rd str/ 5b 2
   * Where did Frankie Lee fret the bass run that follows the tagline of his first verse? 5th str /0  3 4;  4th str/0 2; 5th str/ 3b 0



The questions on "Single Man Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Frankie Lee Sims use to play the song? E standard
   * Where did Frankie Lee fret the up/down run that concludes his intro?  1st str /3b 0; 2nd str/3 0; 3rd str/ 3 2 0 ; 4th str/ 2 2
   * What did Frankie Lee do to alter the feel of the time at the beginning of his final solo? - Doubles time accentuating off beat?



The questions on "January 11, 1949 Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Luther Stoneham use to play the song? E standard tuned low.
   * Where did Luther Stoneham fret the fill he plays at :18--19, and what note does he hit twice in the bass under it?  2nd str/ 3b; 1st str/ 0; 2nd str/ 3b; 1st str/ 0; 3rd str/ 3 2 0; 4th str/  2. Plays open 4th string in bass?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 16, 2017, 12:39:05 PM
 "Don't Forget Me, Baby" A standard
Where did Frankie Lee fret  is intro with a descending run played twice, then playing an answering ascending run up, then working his way back down?

I really can't decide between a long A and an A at the 5th fret. The first couple of seconds it sounds more like a long A, but I'm liking playing the ascending run:
5------------------
--8--5-------------
--------7--4h5----
-----------------7-
-------------------
-------------------
Och, it's probably a long A, where I think the ascending part of the run is easier to play

Where did Frankie Lee fret the bass run that follows the tagline of his first verse?
4th str; ------------0--2--0
5thstr;  --0--3--4------------3b--0

"Single Man Blues" E standard;
Where did Frankie Lee fret the up/down run that concludes his intro?
I'm hearing something like:
-------3--0----3--0---------3--0----0-----------------
----2--------2------------2-------3-----3--0-----------
------------------------------------------------2--0h1--
---------------------------------------------------------2
--0---------------------0--------------------------------
0---------------------0----------------------------------

What did Frankie Lee do to alter the feel of the time at the beginning of his final solo?
Something weird?

So weird it spooked me for the detail of Luther Stoneham's "January 11, 1949 Blues" which sounds in E standard tuned a half step down.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on May 16, 2017, 02:04:02 PM
Frankie Lee Sims, great !
Don’t Forget Me Baby is played in A position (in standard tuning). The descending run is from the 5th fret to the 3rd then open on the E string, 3rd fret then 1st fret on the B string and two hits on the A, 2nd fret of the G string. Second run down is the same but instead of the second A on the G string he jumps up to a G on the 3rd fret of the E string, brushing the 2nd string 2nd fret with it. Then he goes back up from the 2nd fret on the B string, 3rd fret slide to the 4th and the open E string with the Eb still sounding a little (great!), A note twice at the 5th fret of the E string , 3rd fret, open, 3rd fret and 1st fret twice on the B string and back to the 2nd fret of the G string. And a neat move on the 5th string (open, open, 3rd) to 4th (open, first, open)  and back, 3rd fret 5th string to set things up.

Frankie Lee Sims is playing in E position on Single man Blues, tuned just a little below E.
The up and down run that comes at about 8 seconds in is off the A chord that he slides into from the low E string 2nd fret up to the 4th and the open 5th, then picks up on the 2nd string 2nd fret, 3rd fret then open E string, B string 3rd fret then open and G string 3rdfret, 2nd fret and hammer on to the 1st fret, finishing with the 2nd fret on the D string and the open E octave note.
At the beginning of the final solo, I’m not sure of how we can describe it, but I think you’d say he goes from a swung feel to a straight feel.

I think Luther Stoneham’s playing in E position tuned a semitone and a bit low, and the fill is I think a bend on the 3rd fret of the 2nd string to the open E string, with the open 5 string under it. But I’m far from certain of it.

Ok, there's been a couple of replies already that I haven't looked at, let's say if we agree...

And thanks John for this thread, I enjoy it a lot, especially when I make time to work on figuring out the answers..

(edited because I got mixed up retuning the guitar to play with Luther Stoneham!)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 17, 2017, 05:58:35 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Frankie Lee Sims and Luther Stoneham puzzlers?  Come one, come all--answer one, two or all three!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 19, 2017, 05:32:57 PM
Hi all,
It appears that all who intended to respond to the Frankie Lee Sims and Luther Stoneham puzzlers have done so by now, so I will post the answers.  Here goes:

For Frankie Lee Sims' "Don't Forget Me, Baby":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning as all who responded had it--well done!
   * He starts the ascending/descending run in his opening solo by hitting the second fret of the second string on the + of beat 1 of a measure.  On beat two, he plays a triplet, moving from the third fret of the second string to the fourth fret of the second string to the open first string.  On 3+ he hits the fifth fret of the first string twice, and on 4+ he goes from third fret of the first string to the open first string (or fifth fret of the second string).  On 5+ he moves from the third fret of the second string to the bent fifth fret of the third string, and on 6+ he moves from the bent fifth fret of the third string to the second fret of the third string.  In the next bar, on 1+, he hits the open fifth string twice.  On beat two, he plays a triplet, moving from the third fret of the fifth string to the open fourth string and then to the first fret of the fourth string.  On 3+, he goes from the open fourth string to the open fifth string, and on 4+, he goes from the bent third fret of the fifth string to the open fifth string.  What a run!  Joe paul had this run spot on, finding a couple of notes in different locations--very, very well done!
  * The bass run following the tagline of his first verse starts by hitting the open fifth string twice on 1+.  On 2+, he goes from the third to the fourth fret on the fifth string.  On beat three he plays a triplet, the first two notes of which are a hammer from the open fourth string to the first fret of the fourth string, with the final note being a return to the open fourth string.  On 4+, he goes from the bent third fret of the fifth string to the open fifth string.

For "Single Man Blues":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--can't do better than that!
   * His run that concludes his intro starts on the + of beat one, at the second fret of the second string.  On beat 2, he plays a triplet, going from the third fret of the first string to the open first string, ending on the third fret of the second string.  On beat three, he plays another triplet, descending from the open second string to the third fret, and then second fret of the third string.  On beat four, he plays another triplet, the first two notes being a barely audible hammer from the open third string to the first fret of the third string, and the last note being the second fret of the fourth string.  Another rocking run, and his time is strong, strong, strong!
   * Frankie Lee alters the rhythmic feel at the front end of his final solo by switching from the swung eighth note feel in which he has played the entire song up to that point to a straight eighth note feel.  The result?  It sounds intensely syncopated and funky.  Joe paul had Frankie Lee's rhythmic device accurately sussed out--well done!

Was Frankie Lee Sims terrific or what?  He had such an exciting looseness to what he did, both vocally and instrumentally.  I also admire his "spending it all" sort of feeling--he didn't leave anything in the locker room!

For Luther Stoneham's "January 11, 1949 Blues":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning.  Once again, all responses correct, batting 1.000 today!
   * Luther Stoneham fretted his fill at :18--:19 as follows:  On 2+, he goes from a deeply bent third fret of the second string to the open first string.  On 3+ he goes from the deeply bent third fret of the second string to the open second string.  On beat four, he plays a triplet, starting at the second fret of the third string.  On the second note of the triplet, he does a grace note hammer from the open third string to the first fret of the third string, resolving on the final note of the triplet to the second fret of the fourth string.  On beats two and three of the fill, he hit the open fifth string in the bass, underneath the run.

I had never heard or heard of Luther Stoneham before, but he sure sounds good to me.  I really like his singing--great gravitas.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy, Old Man Ned and joe paul for participating.  I think one of the great things about participating is that you have to listen hard to try to answer the questions, and when you have performances like these ones, you are amply rewarded for listening hard--what a treat!  I'll try to find some more puzzlers to post soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 03, 2017, 03:37:42 PM
Hi all,
It has been a while since I posted some puzzlers, and I'm feeling a bit refreshed, so here goes.  The first puzzler is from Memphis Willie B., and it is his "Lonesome Home Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/mWBO1EQwz08

The questions on "Lonesome Home Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Memphis Willie B. use to play the song?
   * Where is Memphis Willie B. fretting the bend he plays from :15--:19?
   * Where does Memphis Willie B. fret the run that concludes his solo, from 2:14--2:16?

The second puzzler is from Jesse Thomas, and it is his "No Good Woman Blues", recorded in 1929.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/M0DufCc7y9E

The questions on "No Good Woman Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jess Thomas use to play the song?
   * Where does Jess Thomas fret the four-chord walk-down from :01--:03?
   * What concept recently addressed in another thread is utilized by Jesse Thomas at the beginning of his solo, from 1:32--1:34, and where does he fret the two chordal positions there?

The puzzler is from Jaydee Short, and it is his song "You Been Cheating Me".  Here is his performance:

https://youtu.be/Yh5d9oybQiE

The questions on "You Been Cheating Me" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jaydee Short use to play "You Been Cheating Me"?
   * Where does he fret his IV chord, from :10--:15, and how would you name that chord?
   * While holding his I chord near the end of his intro, at :23, Jaydee Short adds notes to his I chord for an instant and then rocks back into his I chord.  Where does he fret the notes he adds to the I chord, and what chord is he playing when he adds those notes?
   * "You Been Cheating Me" shares its basic structure and contour with what Blues Standard?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, June 5.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 06, 2017, 11:11:56 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Memphis Willie B., Jesse Thomas and Jaydee Short puzzlers?  Answer all three or just one.  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 06, 2017, 01:21:10 PM
 "Lonesome Home Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did Memphis Willie B. use to play the song?
  I'm hearing this in A standard about a step low
   * Where is Memphis Willie B. fretting the bend he plays from :15--:19?
Is he repeatedly bending the 5th string at the 3rd fret?
   * Where does Memphis Willie B. fret the run that concludes his solo, from 2:14--2:16?
I'm hearing this out of a long A chord, mostly on the 1st and 2nd strings. Apologies for the lack of detail but pushed for time.

The questions on "No Good Woman Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jess Thomas use to play the song?
I'm hearing this out of G standard about a half step high
   * Where does Jess Thomas fret the four-chord walk-down from :01--:03?
Is this a walk down from a G7 at the 3rd fret on the 2nd, 3rd & 4th strings, through F#7, F7 to G open 2nd, 3rd & 4th strings?
   * What concept recently addressed in another thread is utilized by Jesse Thomas at the beginning of his solo, from 1:32--1:34, and where does he fret the two chordal positions there?
This'll be the 3 frets up concept. D shape at the  10th fret and catching the 1st string 12th fret, resolving to the G at the 7th fret

Unfortunately not had chance to have a listen to Jaydee Short.

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on June 06, 2017, 03:10:32 PM
I am currently working on them.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on June 06, 2017, 06:29:00 PM
Just had time for Memphis Willie B.:

Lonesome Home:
Standard tuning, G position
bend is 5th string, 1st fret
and the run is something like:


-------3-1---------------------------------------------
0-1-2------3-1-----0------------------------------------
------------------b3---0----------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 07, 2017, 02:55:43 AM
The questions on "Lonesome Home Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Memphis Willie B. use to play the song? - G standard
   * Where is Memphis Willie B. fretting the bend he plays from :15--:19? - first fret fifth string
   * Where does Memphis Willie B. fret the run that concludes his solo, from 2:14--2:16? - 2str/ 0 1 2 3/ 1str/3 1/ 2str/ 32 / 3str/ 3 0

The questions on "No Good Woman Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jess Thomas use to play the song? - DGDGBE
   * Where does Jess Thomas fret the four-chord walk-down from :01--:03? -  Not sure about this but I?ll say: descending double stop starting at 2 str 3fr and 3rd str 4fr played against a pinched open 5str and 4str, then same position one fret lower, one fret lower again, resolving to G chord 000003
   * What concept recently addressed in another thread is utilized by Jesse Thomas at the beginning of his solo, from 1:32--1:34, and where does he fret the two chordal positions there? - ?3 frets up? - he plays a D shape at 10th fret then descends to same shape at 7th fret


The questions on "You Been Cheating Me" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jaydee Short use to play "You Been Cheating Me"? A standard
   * Where does he fret his IV chord, from :10--:15, and how would you name that chord? - D9 2x0210
   * While holding his I chord near the end of his intro, at :23, Jaydee Short adds notes to his I chord for an instant and then rocks back into his I chord.  Where does he fret the notes he adds to the I chord, and what chord is he playing when he adds those notes? -???
   * "You Been Cheating Me" shares its basic structure and contour with what Blues Standard? -How Long Blues
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 08, 2017, 12:59:42 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Memphis Willie B., Jesse Thomas and Jaydee Short puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on June 08, 2017, 07:51:28 PM
The questions on "Lonesome Home Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Memphis Willie B. use to play the song?

G Position

   * Where is Memphis Willie B. fretting the bend he plays from :15--:19?

The bend was on the 5th string 1st fret

   * Where does Memphis Willie B. fret the run that concludes his solo, from 2:14--2:16?


E-------3-1-----------------33---
B-1-2-3-----3-1-------------00---
G----------------3-0--------00---
D---------------------------00---
A--------------------------------
E-----------------------3-3------


I only had time to do the first song. I"ll just venture a guess for the other two. No Good Woman Blues sounds to be in G position or Spanish I would need a little more time to nail it down and You Been Cheating me sounds to be in A position.

If the answers are not posted by tomorrow evening I will try to get the other two songs worked out more.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 10, 2017, 03:09:01 AM
Still fumbling with Jesse Thomas's turnaround! Could it be (in DGDGBE tuning) xx343x  xx232x. xx121x. xx000x  xx453x ???


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 12, 2017, 12:34:06 PM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intended to respond to the Memphis Willie B., Jesse Thomas and Jaydee Short puzzlers has done so, so I will post the answers.

For Memphis Willie B.'s "Lonesome Home Blues":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning
   * Memphis Willie B. fretted the bend he played from :15--:19 at the first fret of the fifth string.
   * Memphis Willie B. played the run with which he concluded his solo, from 2:14--2:16, as follows:  He begins his run on the + of beat 1, at the first fret of the second string.  On beat two, he plays a triplet, going from the second fret of the second string to the third fret of the second string and then the third fret of the first string.  On beat three, he plays another triplet, going from the first fret of the first string to the third fret of the second string and ending on the second fret of the second string.  On beat four, he plays one more triplet, going from the first fret of the second string to the third fret of the third string, and ending on the open third string.  On 1+ of the next measure, he hits the third fret of the sixth string twice.

At least in the period in which Memphis Willie B recorded his two Prestige Bluesville albums produced by Samuel Charters, he especially favored G position in standard tuning and D position in standard tuning, though he also recorded in other tunings and positions.

For Jesse Thomas's "No Good Woman Blues":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning.  I'll expand a little on that identification, because at his early solo session, he recorded another tune in G position, standard tuning, "Blue Goose Blues", and a tune in DGDGBE tuning, as Prof Scratchy had it, "My Heart's A Rolling Stone".  This identification is tricky because the two playing positions/tunings are identical on the first four strings, so the distinction between them is simply made on the basis of what happens in the bass, where they differ.  Jesse Thomas opens the song with a thumb roll from the root of the I chord to the third of the I chord.  In G position, standard tuning, those notes live at the third fret of the sixth string and the second fret of the fifth string.  In DGDGBE, the same notes live two frets higher, at the fifth fret of the sixth string and the fourth fret of the fifth string.  That location doesn't present a serious impediment to their being played that way, but it does put the left hand out of position for the treble run that immediately follows the thumb roll.  As the song goes along, Jess Thomas uses a C7 shape for both his IV7 and V7 chords, on the fourth, third and second strings.  And for both chords, in the bass he does bouncing thumb rolls from the fifth of the chord up to the third of the chord, on the fourth string.  In G position in standard tuning, those alternations sit right under the hand, so that in the C7 shape, if you finger the sixth rather than the fifth string with your ring finger, you have a solution that works for the bass in both C7 and D7, with the alternation in C7 from the third fret of the sixth string to the second fret of the fourth string, and in D7 the alternation going from the fifth fret of the sixth string to the fourth fret of the fourth string.  In DGDGBE tuning, getting those alternations is much more problematic.  In C7 you could alternate from the open fifth string to the second fret of the fourth string, but in D7, you would have to alternate either from the second fret of the fifth string to the fourth fret of the fourth string (while holding down the rest of the D7 shape on the third and second strings) or alternate from the seventh fret of the sixth string to the fourth fret of the fourth string (similarly, while still holding down the rest of the D7 shape on the third and second strings).  To my mind, this problem with the bass in the D7 chord eliminates DGDGBE tuning from consideration for "No Good Woman Blues", especially since everything else that happens in the bass on the song sits right under the left hand in G position in standard tuning.
   * Jesse Thomas's four-chord walk-down, from :01--:03 is exactly as Prof Scratchy had it in the post immediately prior to this one, though played in G position standard tuning rather than DGDGBE tuning.  The strings on that turn-around are the same in either playing position/tuning.
   * Jesse Thomas begins his solo with the "three frets up" concept, opening with a D shape up the neck, 10-11-10 on strings three-two-one, a G minor 7 in this context, and then moves the shape down three frets intact to 7-8-7, a G chord.

For Jaydee Short's "You Been Cheating Me":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning
   * His IV chord, from :15--19, was exactly as Prof Scratchy figured it and named it-- a D9 chord voiced 2-X-0-2-1-0
   * At :23, while holding a long A chord in the left hand, X-0-2-2-2-5, Jaydee Short rocks briefly to a D/A chord, X-0-4-2-3-5, by dropping his ring finger down at the fourth fret of the fourth string and his second finger down at the third fret of the second string.  Try it, you'll like it!
   * "You Been Cheating Me" shares its basic shape and contour with "How Long, How Long Blues", as Prof Scratchy had it.

Wasn't Jaydee Short a wonderful singer?  I think his tone on the harmonica off the rack was pretty spectacular, too.

Thanks to all who participated and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 22, 2017, 09:22:07 PM
Hi all,
I feel like we're way overdue for some new puzzlers, and I've finally had an opportunity to do some listening and research, so here goes.  The first puzzler is "Chicago Blues", performed by Andrew Thomas, recorded in 1949.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/z-pNTZtQezc

INTRO

Well, I'm back from Chicago, mama, and I'll be here a long, long time
Well, I'm back from Chicago, mama, and I'll be here a long, long time
Out of all the time I'm here, I don't want to do nothin' but big time

When I was in Chicago, babe, I had a very nice time
When I was in Chicago, babe, I had a very nice time
Out of all the time I had, baby, you were still on my mind

SOLO

I want to see you, baby, mama, one time before you go
I want to see you, baby, mama, one time before you go
If you don't come to see me, girl, I don't want you no more

The questions on "Chicago Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Andrew Thomas use to play the song?
   * What is Andrew Thomas fretting in the treble as he begins the song?
   * Where did Andrew Thomas fret what he played at the beginning of his solo, from 1:19--1:27?

The second puzzler is from Jesse Thomas, and it is his recording of "Gonna Move To California", from 1953.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/5SK07F3OUfs

The questions on "Gonna Move To California" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jesse Thomas use to play the song?
   * Where does Jesse Thomas fret the chords he plays behind his opening line, "I woke up this morning, oh, I was feeling so bad"?  What are those chords?

The third puzzler is from Shortstuff Macon, and is his song, "She Have Broken My Heart".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/y4M6BlPM7jY

INTRO

You don't know, you don't love me, yes, I know
You don't leave me, baby, I do anything you say

You don't know, you don't love me, yes, I know
You don't leave me, baby, I do anything you say

You don't know, you don't love me, yes, I know
You don't leave me, baby, baby, you have broke my heart

GUITAR INTERLUDE

Mmmmm, mmmm, hmmmm
You don't leave me, baby, I'll get on my knees and pray

You don't know, you don't love me, yes, I know
You don't leave me, baby, I do anything you say

The questions on "She Have Broken My Heart" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Shortstuff Macon use to play the song?
   * What chord often played in blues is omitted by Shortstuff in his rendition of the song?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Sunday, June 25.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm




Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jpeters609 on June 23, 2017, 06:41:02 AM
John, it matters not a whit to the challenge at hand, but I thought I'd give credit where it is due: the guitarist on the Andrew Thomas cut is Luther Stoneham (under the name of Luther "Stoner"). And great choices, by the way!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 23, 2017, 08:22:06 AM
Thanks very much for the personnel revision, Jeff.  I'm a believer in credit where credit is due.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 26, 2017, 01:55:58 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Andrew Thomas/Luther Stoneham, Jesse Thomas and Shortstuff Macon puzzlers?  Come one, come all!  Answer just one question or all of them.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 27, 2017, 12:34:32 PM
This is my best shot:

"Chicago Blues", Andrew Thomas is playing in E standard
the fretting in the treble where he begins the song I'm hearing something like:
--3h4-4-
----------5
on the first 2 strings a few times
Andrew Thomas frets what he plays at the beginning of his solo, from 1:19--1:27 on the first 2 strings going:
--4---7---4---7
--5---9---5---8

"Gonna Move To California" by Jesse Thomas, I love.  Is it just me or does this track put any one else in mind of Josh White?
This is sounding in A standard to me and I'm not sure where exactly he's fretting the chords but is there a Em7 and an A7 in there?

Shortstuff Macon, I've never heard of before, but really like "She Have Broken My Heart".  I've spent the least time on this but am going for E, cross note.


Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 30, 2017, 07:41:19 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers care to join Old Man Ned in trying the Andrew Thomas/Luther Stoneham, Jesse Thomas and Shortstuff Macon puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on July 03, 2017, 04:04:15 PM
The questions on "Chicago Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Andrew Thomas use to play the song?

E position Standard tuning

   * What is Andrew Thomas fretting in the treble as he begins the song?

E--3-33-
B--2----
G-------
D-------
A-------
E-------
Bend the notes about 1/4

   * Where did Andrew Thomas fret what he played at the beginning of his solo, from 1:19--1:27?

E--5--7--5-10----
B--7--9--7-12----
G----------------
D----------------
A----------------
E----------------

I'm working on the others right now but figured I would post this and just add to it as I get more.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on July 04, 2017, 02:54:52 AM
I think I'm getting somewhere with "Gonna Move to California" by Jesse Thomas. He's playing in standard tuning. The first chord is a big open e chord, then an Asharp dim7, a C chord, Em and back to the A sharp dim7, an Eb note at the first fret of the d string which suggests an A dim7 and back to the big bass E note. Like this :


E--0------0------0-------0----0-----
B--0------2------1---------0--2-----
G--1-------------0----------------
D-------2-----2-------2------------1--
A----------1-----3-------2-----1-----
E-----0-------------------------------0


For the moment, there are still a bunch of other voicing in the song that have me beat (assuming this is right so far....!). Great number though.

Gordon
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 07, 2017, 01:13:26 PM
Hi all,
The current set of puzzlers have been up for a while and I think all responses are in, so I'll post the answers.

For Andrew Thomas and Luther Stoneham's "Chicago Blues":
   * Luther Stoneham's playing position was E position in standard tuning
   * As the song begins, Luther Stoneham is bending the third fret of the first and second strings in the treble.  It's pleasing, rasty sound to me.
   * At the beginning of his solo, from 1:19--1:27, Luther Stoneham opens up, brushing triplets on the first two strings, first at the seventh fret of the second string and fifth fret of the first string (9 and sus4 relative to the E chord that it is being played against), then moving the shape up two frets intact, to the ninth fret of the second string and the seventh fret of the first string (3 and 5 relative to E), moves the position back down to 7-5 where he began the solo, and then takes it up to the twelfth fret of the second string and tenth fret of the first string (5 and flat7 in E).  So in his second and fourth positions, Luther Stoneham employed the "three frets up" concept.  Where he diverges from that is in his solo's opening position.  Incidentally, EddieD had this identification spot on--well done!

For Jess Thomas's "I'm Gonna Move To California":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning
   * The chords that Jesse Thomas played at the front end of his rendition were as follows:  E (0-X-X-1-0-0) Bflat dim7 (X-1-2-0-2-X) Am/C or C6 (X-3-X-2-1-X) E/B (X-2-X-1-0-0) Bflat dim7 (as before) B7 (X-2-1-2-0-X) E.  This is very close to what joe paul had.  Isn't this song great?  Mark my words, Jesse Thomas will be truly appreciated one of these centuries.

For Shortstuff Macon's "She Have Broken My Heart":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning
   * The chord that is often played in blues that Shortstuff Macon omits in his rendition is the V or V7 chord.  In his V chord avoidance, he shows a predilection shared by such fellow Mississippians as Sam Collins, Dr. Ross and John Lee Hooker.

Thanks to all who responded to the puzzlers, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some other puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm     
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: EddieD on July 07, 2017, 05:13:24 PM
I completely forgot to post the rest of my answers! I got very busy with work. I will look forward to the next. Also, Johnm I don't know if you recall a message I sent you at the start of the year when I was looking into purchasing lessons but things are going much better now!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 19, 2017, 10:05:37 PM
Hi all,
Between being very busy and my computer being upgraded, it has been a while since I've posted any puzzlers, and the time has come to do so!  Here goes:

The first puzzler is from Leon Strickland, and it is his "Train Blues", recorded by Dr. Harry Oster in Louisiana in 1959, with Lucius Bridges adding a washboard accompaniment.  Here is the duo's performance:

https://youtu.be/ErScykrm1JE

Yeah, when the Santa Fe left that mornin', woman, I was layin' down in my bed
Yes, when the Santa Fe left this mornin', Lord, I was layin' down in my bed
Yes, my baby done left me, yes, and that old word she said

(SPOKEN):  Yes, and I tell all you menfolks, don't never let one woman worry your mind.  She keep you worried and bothered all the time.  This mornin', do you know?  My babe done packed her suitcase and her trunk was already gone.  Want to know what she told me, she said, "Boy, you better wake up!"  Then when I woke up I heard that Santa Feel [sic].  Tryin' to get away.  My baby had done packed her suitcase and her trunk was already gone.  That train was late that mornin'.  I want you to hear that circle spinnin' on the track that mornin', tryin' to get away.  When she got away, good boy, she give that higball blow.  Me, big fool, so worried and blue, don't know what in the world to do.  I thought about my old guitar and went back to the corner,  commenced to playin' "My Baby's Gone." My baby's gone.  Lord knows, that mornin', boy, that train run so fast you couldn't hear nothin' but that bell on.  Conductor rung up to the engineer, said, "We fifteen minutes late.  Think you can't catch it up, what we gon' do?"  Want you to hear that train, runnin' that mornin'.  When they got the call for Nashville, boy, you couldn't hear nothin' but that bell.  When they got there, they was fifteen minutes late, I wish you could see them conductors meetin' one another with them watches in their hand, and which was how them watches was tickin' that mornin'. 

The questions on "Train Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Leon Strickland use to play the song?
   * Where did Leon Strickland fret the ascending/descending fill he plays from :11--:13?
   * Right around :36, Leon Strickland starts perseverating on an 8-note bass riff under his narration.  What are the 8-notes he is playing and where does he fret them?

The second puzzler is from Sonny Boy Nelson (Eugene Powell), and it is his ".44 Blues".  Here is his performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/GCuAkuSaqXU

INTRO SOLO

Well, I walked all night long, with my .44 in my hand
Well, I walked all night long with my .44 in my hand
I says, I was lookin' for my woman, and I found out with another man

I thought I heard my baby sayin', she heard the .44 whistle blow (Spoken: I was shootin' at her)
I thought I heard my baby sayin', that she heard the .44 whistle when it blowed
And she said it blows just like, that it wasn't gonna blow the blues no more

SOLO

I wore my .44 so long, 'til it made my shoulder sore
I wore my .44 so long, and it made my shoulder
Now I gotta do what I wanta do, sweet mama, then I ain't gonna wear my .44 no more

I wore my .44 so long (Spoken: In a old shoulder scabbard, you know), 'til it made my shoulder sore
Wore my .44 so long, and it made my shoulder sore
After I do what I wanta do, then I ain't gonna wear my .44 no more 

The questions on ".44 Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Eugene Powell use to play the song?
   * Where did Eugene Powell fret the lick he plays from 1:52--1:53 and again from 1:55--1:56?

The third puzzler is from Pink Anderson, and it is his version of "Big House Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/XawUkBcWeXY

INTRO

Lord, I'm on my way to the big house, and I don't even care
I'm on my way to the big house, gal, and I don't even care
I may get lifetime, and I may get the 'lectric chair

I wouldn't mind going to the big house, but I've go to stay there so long
I wouldn't mind going to the big house, gal, but I've got to stay there so long
They got me 'scused for murder, when I ain't done nothing wrong

Lord, I ain't got no money, and a job is hard to find
I ain't got me no money, and a job is hard to find
I been out of luck so long, I ain't got one lousy dime

Lord, I once had a woman, and she did not mean me no good
Lord, I once had a woman, that woman did not mean me no good
And she gave me so much trouble, I had to move from her neighborhood

SOLO

Now here's all I've got to say, in the big house I soon will be
Here's all I've got to say, in the big house I soon will be
After these hard times over, somebody please com and get poor me

The questions on "Big House Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Pink Anderson use to play the song?
   * Where did Pink fret the descending run he played from 1:22--1:23?
   * What surprising chord does Pink consistently hit on the downbeat of the tenth bar of his form?

Please use only your ears and your musical instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday, July 22.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 23, 2017, 06:29:35 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Leon Strickland, Eugene Powell and Pink Anderson puzzlers?  Come one, come all!  Answer just one question or answer them all.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on July 24, 2017, 01:12:36 PM
Starting with Pink Anderson, is this in D standard and he's tuned about a step low?  The descending run, I'm getting on the first 3 strings as something like:
1--0--------------------2
------3--1--0----0-----3
----------------2----2--2

Sunny Boy Nelson's version of 44 blues is beautiful.  I never thought Howlin' Wolf's version could be topped but this, for me, runs it close.  I love it. I'm going to need to go back to this to figure it out completely, but for a start, I'm thinking this is out of G standard?  Is the lick he plays:
--0--2--0
----------
3---------
on the bottom 4 strings....seems too simple though..

Not had time to spend on Leon Strickland's Train Blues.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 25, 2017, 03:46:30 AM
Not at all confident about these but I'll venture:

The questions on "Train Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Leon Strickland use to play the song? E
   * Where did Leon Strickland fret the ascending/descending fill he plays from :11--:13?  2str 3fr ; 1str 0 3 0; 2str 3fr 0 ; 3st  3 2 0; 4str 2
   * Right around :36, Leon Strickland starts perseverating on an 8-note bass riff under his narration.  What are the 8-notes he is playing and where does he fret them? ??


The questions on ".44 Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Eugene Powell use to play the song? G
   * Where did Eugene Powell fret the lick he plays from 1:52--1:53 and again from 1:55--1:56?  from G chord to partial C chord hammering on to 2str 1fr and 4str 2 fret then bend 3 fr of 3str  then 3str open  then 2fr 4str and 3str open


The questions on "Big House Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Pink Anderson use to play the song? drop D
   * Where did Pink fret the descending run he played from 1:22--1:23? - from D chord> 1str 1 0;  2str 2 ;3str 2 1 0 ;4str 2 4 ;2 str 3
   * What surprising chord does Pink consistently hit on the downbeat of the tenth bar of his form? -??
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 26, 2017, 06:19:25 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Leon Strickland, Eugene Powell and Pink Anderson puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 27, 2017, 10:40:25 AM
Hi all,
I'm going to post the answers to the Leon Strickland, Eugene Powell and Pink Anderson puzzlers now, just because I won't have an opportunity to do so in the coming week-and-a-half.  Here they are:

For Leon Strickland's "Train Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was Vestapol
   * Leon Stickland fretted the ascending/descending fill from :11--:13 as follows.  The run starts on the + of beat 1 with an open first string.  On beat 2 he plays a triplet, going from the third fret of the second string to the open first string and from there to the bent third fret of the first string.  On beat 3 he plays another triplet, going from the open first string to the open second string and from there to the first fret of the third string.  On beat 4 +, he resolves the line, going from the third fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string on the + of beat 4.  This run is pretty close to what Prof Scratchy had, transposed from his E position, standard tuning to Vestapol.
   * Leon Strickland's 8-note ostinato, starting at around :36 is played as follows:  He begins the riff on the + of beat 3, hitting the second fret of the fifth string.  On 4 +, he goes from the open fourth string to the third fret of the sixth string.  That third fret of the sixth string he hits on the + of beat four is a pick-up note to the lick.  In the next bar, he goes from the open fifth string to the second fret of the fifth string on 1 +, goes from the open fourth string to the open sixth string on 2 +, goes from open fifth string to the second fret of the fifth string on 3 +, and goes from the open fourth string to the third fret of the sixth string on 4 +, essentially starting the lick over.  It then repeats intact, several times, as it was played in the first full measure in which it appeared.  You do it all with your thumb in the right hand, and I think it is one of the finest evocations of the churning movement of a train that I've heard played in this music.

I think this is a perfectly wonderful piece, and it makes me feel like an album's worth of material by Leon Strickland would have been a great thing to hear.  I don't know if there is any way of finding out at this point how much other material of his was recorded by Dr. Harry Oster, but I would love to hear whatever there is.

For Eugene Powell's ".44 Blues":
  * His playing position/tuning was G position in standard tuning, as both Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy had it--well done!
   * Eugene Powell's signature lick that he played from 1:52--1:53 and again from 1:55--1:56 is a harmonized walk between the second and fourth strings, moving from a G chord on those strings to a C chord and back, going from X-X-0-X-0-X to X-X-2-X-1-X and back to X-X-0-X-0-X.

This is a real showpiece by Eugene Powell, who along with Bo Carter and Hacksaw Harney was a practitioner of harmonically sophisticated Mississippi blues, a sort of sub-genre that has not at all been adequately studied or understood.

For Pink Anderson's "Big House Blues":
   * His playing position was D position in standard tuning (though tuned low).  Dropped-D would not work for the song because Pink plays a G7 chord with its root in the bass on the sixth string, starting at :52, and dropped-D tuning would require him to finger the chord 5-2-0-0-0-1, an implausible fingering even for Pink, with his huge hands.
   * Pink fretted the descending run from 1:22--1:23 as follows:  It starts on beat 2, on which he plays a triplet, going from the first fret of the first string to the open first string and ending on the third fret of the second string.  On beat 3, he plays another triplet, going from the open second string to the second fret of the third string and form there to the first fret of the third string.  On beat 4, he goes from the second fret of the third string to the open fourth string.  On the downbeat of the next measure, he brushes on D chord on the top three strings.
   * The surprising chord that Pink hit on the downbeat of the tenth bar of the form is an E7/B, X-2-0-1-3-0.

Pink really had a lot of ingredients and versatility in his playing.  I think it's easy to underestimate his skills, because like Furry Lewis, he was funny and droll, and I think humorous musicians are almost always under-valued as players.

My particular thanks to Old Man Ned and Professor Scratchy for their participation in the puzzlers and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for more to post, the week after next.

All best,
Johnm     
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 20, 2017, 03:36:48 PM
Hi folks,
After being out of town a lot in the first half of August, I finally have found time to post some new puzzlers.  The first is from John Lee Hooker, and is his "Graveyard Blues", recorded in 1959.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/RNMFXRy51Vo

INTRO

You know they tell me the graveyard, grave, graveyard is a low-down dirty place
You know they tell me the graveyard, graveyard is a low-down dirty place
They taken my baby to the graveyard, they packed dirt in her face

I followed that long black wagon, long black wagon down to the graveyard, watched them pack dirt in my baby's face
I followed that long black wagon to the graveyard watched them pack dirt in my baby's face
Mister graveyard digger, why you wanna take my babe away?

I waved bye-bye-bye at my baby, when they were letting' her down in her grave (Spoken:  Yes, I did)
Let me down, letting' her down in her grave

SOLO

I'm gonna bring you some flowers, baby, bring you some flowers, on every Decoration Day, baby
Gonna decorate your grave, baby, on every Decoration Day

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm, poor me, poor me, poor me
Mmmmmmm poor me, mmm poor boy, me, poor me
I ain't got nobody, baby, I ain't got nobody, baby, all I got in the world have passed away

My baby gone, have passed away have passed away, I'll be here, baby (fade)

The questions on "Graveyard Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did John Lee Hooker use to play the song?
   * Where does John Lee Hooker play the very opening of his rendition, from :00 to :03?
   * Where does John Lee Hooker fret the repeated hammers he plays in the treble from :58--1:03?

The second puzzler is from J B Lenoir, and is his song "Mississippi Road", from his "Alabama Blues" album.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/h5pEvemjYMc

INTRO

My Mother and Daddy live on a high hill, 'way on that Mississippi Road
My Mother and Daddy live on a high hill, 'way on out that Mississippi Road
Sometime I would walk down, cried, "Wonder which-a-way, one day, I must go?"

My Mother and Daddy worked so hard, until their clothes was wet with sweat
My Mother and Daddy worked so hard, until their clothes was wet with sweat
And come time from the sell-up get paid from the master, they wouldn't never come out of debt

Sometime I set down and wonder, why I was the onliest child she had
Sometime I sets down and wonder, why I was the only child she had
Sometime I think about the way she was mistreated, and that's what make me feel so bad

Before my Mother, she died, she used to hang her head and cry
Before my Mother, she died, she used to hang her head and cry
She said, "Lord have mercy, have mercy on my little child."

She said, "Lord have mercy, have mercy on my little (guitar finishes line)."

The questions on "Mississippi Road" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did J B Lenoir use to play the song?
   * J B begins his rendition by rocking between two chords in the treble.  Where did he fret them and what are the chords?
   * In his verse accompaniments, J B never ventures above the ____ fret on the treble strings.

The third puzzler is from Sampson Pittman, and is his "Highway 61 Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/855XbPpwEQY

INTRO SOLO

I said, yes, I believe I want to go
I said, yes, I believe I want to go
It's back to the Nation, and back to the territor'


I said, I got up this mornin', baby, I could not keep from cryin', the blues was on my breakfast, baby
(Guitar finishes verse)

SOLO X 4

Edited 8/30 to pick up corrections from waxwing and jpeters609.

The questions on "Highway 61 Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Sampson Pittman use to play "Highway 61 Blues"?
   * At the very opening of his rendition, Sampson Pittman plays two strings in the treble over two chords.  At what frets is he using the slide, what strings is he playing, and can you name the two chords numerically (I, IV, V, etc.).
   * Where did Sampson Pittman fret the ascending/descending line he plays from :59--1:01?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, August 22.  I hope you enjoy the songs and thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm


   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 23, 2017, 08:55:31 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the John Lee Hooker, J B Lenoir and Sampson Pittman puzzlers?  Come one, come all, try one or all three!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 24, 2017, 03:09:11 AM
The questions on "Graveyard Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did John Lee Hooker use to play the song? - Spanish
   * Where does John Lee Hooker play the very opening of his rendition, from :00 to :03? - hammers on fourth string from 4th to 5th fret played against open 3rd string
   * Where does John Lee Hooker fret the repeated hammers he plays in the treble from :58--1:03?- hammers from 2nd fret 2nd str to third fret 2nd str repeatedly, resolving to 1st fr 2nd str and 3rd fret 3rd str then 3rd str open


The questions on "Mississippi Road" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did J B Lenoir use to play the song? - E standard
   * J B begins his rendition by rocking between two chords in the treble.  Where did he fret them and what are the chords? - E7 (020100) and A (x0222x)
   * In his verse accompaniments, J B never ventures above the _5th___ fret on the treble strings.

The questions on "Highway 61 Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Sampson Pittman use to play "Highway 61 Blues"?  -Vestapol
   * At the very opening of his rendition, Sampson Pittman plays two strings in the treble over two chords.  At what frets is he using the slide, what strings is he playing, and can you name the two chords numerically (I, IV, V, etc.). 12th and 5th (I/IV)
   * Where did Sampson Pittman fret the ascending/descending line he plays from :59--1:01? 4str/0 3str/ 0 1 2 3 2nd str/ 0 3rd str/  3 2 1 0 4th str/ 0
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on August 24, 2017, 04:04:09 AM
JLH - Spanish, then what the Prof said.
JB - E standard. Switch between E & A
Sampson Pittman - Vasterpol.  From this and his other recordings it sounds as though he is playing lap style.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 24, 2017, 11:22:44 AM
Spent most of my time on the J.B Lenoir tune and came up with the same as Prof Scratchy, though to my ears he sounds to be pitched at around F, so I'm guessing a capo at the first fret.

I've only got as far as Open G for the John Lee Hooker tune and Open D (Vestapol) for the Sampson Pitman tune.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 26, 2017, 07:32:36 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the John Lee Hooker, J B Lenoir and Sampson Pittman puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 28, 2017, 09:41:56 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the John Lee Hooker, J B Lenoir and Sampson Pittman puzzlers has done so, so I will post the answers.

For John Lee Hooker's "Graveyard Blues":
   *  His playing position/tuning was Spanish tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!
   * John Lee Hooker, at the front end of his rendition, from :00--:03 is going from the open third string to the third fret of the fourth string, back and forth, articulating everything with his thumb in the right hand, by the sound of it, and dragging his thumb through from the fourth to the third string.
   * From :58--1:03, John Lee Hooker is hammering repeatedly in the treble from the first fret of the second string to the third fret of the second string.

For J B Lenoir's "Mississippi Road":
   * His playing position/tuning was D position in dropped-D tuning
   * The two chords that J B Lenoir rocks between in the treble at the beginning of his rendition are a D chord, fretted 2-3-2 on the top three strings, from third string to first string, and a G6, fretted 0-0-0 on the first three strings.
   * In his verse accompaniments, J B never ventures above the third fret on the treble strings.

For Sampson Pittman's "Highway 61 Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was Vestapol tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!
   * At the very beginning of his rendition, Sampson Pittman is fretting the third and second strings with his slide, first at the twelfth fret, playing a I chord and then at the fifth fret, playing a IV chord.  Prof Scratchy had this identified right on the money.
   * Sampson Pittman played the ascending/descending line from :59--1:01 as follows:  He hits the open third string on the + of beat one.  On beat two, he plays a triplet, going from the first fret of the third string to the third fret of the third string and then brushing the unison third fret third string and open second string.  On beat three, he plays another triplet, going from the open second string to the open first string and back to the open second string.  On beat four, he plays another triplet, walking down the third string from the second fret to the first fret to the open third string, resolving to the open fourth string on the downbeat of the next measure.

Re John Lee Hooker, I'm curious--does anyone know of any of his songs that he played in anything other than Spanish or E position in standard tuning (Natural in Robert Belfour's parlance)?  I think, like Robert Belfour, he may only have played in those two tunings/positions.  As for J B Lenoir, he seems to have developed an affinity for dropped-D tuning around the time he made the "Alabama Blues" album, as several tunes on that record used that playing position/tuning.  Sampson Pittman seems like one of those players whose recorded repertoire is trickling in, a tune at a time, on youtube.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy, blueshome and Old Man Ned for participating in the puzzlers, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I'll try to find and post some more puzzlers soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 28, 2017, 10:29:56 AM
I'm not aware of any John Lee Hooker songs in tunings other than Spanish and E Standard. I saw him in a small club in Yorkshire in 1964, accompanied by the Groundhogs. Every tune was  in E! The Groundhogs played the 1 1V and V chords whether he liked it or not, and mostly he didn't!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 28, 2017, 11:31:07 AM
Thanks for the story, Prof!  I can easily believe he wasn't thrilled about having IV and V chords added to all of his songs, willy-nilly.  I reckon the V chords may have been especially irksome.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on August 29, 2017, 06:40:38 AM
All of Pittman's recordings can be found on the cd Detroit Blues. He really is a good slide player.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 29, 2017, 08:31:14 AM
Thanks for the tip, Phil.  Is that the JSP "Detroit Blues" set or some other release?
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on August 29, 2017, 11:37:57 PM
Sorry John, it's called Detroit City Blues on Revolver. I downloaded it. It also has the LOC Calvin Frazier sides.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on August 30, 2017, 02:47:29 AM
The Revolver issue is Vol 1 is a four-CD set called Detroit Blues (Revolver 06988), issued in 2009. Sampson Pittman's L of C recordings were also issued (in 1992) on CD Laurie LCD-7002, The Devil Is Busy. And for those who remember or still use vinyl, Flyright LP-542, I'm the Highway Man (1980 .... ah, those were the days) has tracks by Pittman and Calvin Frazier.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 30, 2017, 09:00:24 AM
Thanks for the discographical information, Phil and Al.  Incidentally, I've been transcribing Sampson Pittman's lyrics to his "Highway 61 Blues" in the last puzzler, and am stuck on the last bit of the lyric break with which he opens his second verse.  I'd very much appreciate some help with the bent bracketed portion of the lyrics.  Thanks for any help with that.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on August 30, 2017, 06:44:08 PM
Not convinced, Johnm, but I think he sings, "The blues was on my breakfast, Baby..." which seems kind of odd. Out of curiosity I checked the Concordance and Mr Taft has 22 examples of "breakfast", all with something like "eat my" or "cook my" in the line. But "frying" at the end of the line replaced by the guitar lick would make a good rhyme for "crying", eh?

Wax
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jpeters609 on August 30, 2017, 09:15:30 PM
I think I agree with Wax: it sounds like "the blues was on my breakfast, baby." But I'm not 100% sure. "The blues was on my breakfast TABLE" would make more sense, but I think I hear a "b" and not a "t." I am sure, however, that the first two lines are:

I said, yes, I believe I WANT to go
I said, yes, I believe I WANT to go
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 30, 2017, 09:57:33 PM
Thanks very much, wax and Jeff, for the help with Sampson Pittman's lyrics.  I believe "breakfast, baby" is the missing phrase in the second verse of "Highway 61 Blues" and I'm hearing "want to go" in the first verse, as well.  I will make the changes.  Thanks so much, guys!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 04, 2017, 09:25:46 AM
Hi all,
It seems like it's time for some new puzzlers, and it has been a while since we had ones in which the only object was to name the position/tuning being used by the player, so let's do these ones that way.  The first puzzler is from Jack Owens, and here it is, his "Keep On Groaning":

https://youtu.be/ULE6zCCHEH4

INTRO

Keep on grumblin', 'bout the low-down way I do
Keep on grumblin', 'bout the low-down way I do
Well, if I treat you dirty, baby, please treat me dirty, too, ohh, dirty, too

Why'd you wanna leave, then, even shake my hand
Why'd you wanna leave, then, wouldn't even shake my hand
That's all right, baby girl, some day you will understand

Wish you would, baby, give up your low-down ways
Wish you would, now, give up your low-down ways
You don't quit your foolin', baby, want you to drop your low-down ways

Gwine to hire, good girl, no lawyer down
I ain't gwine to hire, good gal, no lawyer down                                 
Gonna stay right here, baby darling, until they's drag me down

SOLO

Gonna stay right there, baby girl, darling, until they drag me down

   * What playing position/tuning did Jack Owens use to play "Keep On Groaning"?

The second puzzler is from Frank Hovington, and it is his "Chimney Hill Breakdown".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/JfpcQ-0RhV4

   * What playing position/tuning did Frank Covington use to play "Chimney Hill Breakdown"?

The third puzzler is from Bill Jackson, and it is his "Freight Train Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/f_jKY-WfLAo

I hate to hear that engine blow, "Boo-hoo"
How I hate to hear, engine blow, "Boo-hoo"
'Cause every time I hear it blow, feel like riding away

I have the freight train blues and boxcars on my mind
I have the freight train blues, boxcars on my mind
I'm gonna leave this town, my baby has turned me down

Well, I asked the conductor, "Let me ride the blind?"
Well, I asked the conductor, "Let me ride them blinds?"
He said, "I'm sorry, son, but you know this train ain't mine."

Now, when a woman gets the blues, she runs to her room and cries
Now, when a woman gets the blues, runs to her room and cries
But when a man gets the blues, catch the train and ride

   * What playing position/tuning did Bill Jackson use to play "Freight Train Blues"?

Please use only your ears and your guitar to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, September 6.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 06, 2017, 01:29:22 PM
For Jack Owens "Keep On Groaning" I'm hearing Open G.  There's parts of this that remind of Skip James Special Rider.

Frank Hovington's "Chimney Hill Breakdown" is tormenting me.  I've thought C, possibly F or maybes G.  I'll spend a bit more time on this one.

Bill Jackson's "Freight Train Blues" I'm hearing in G standard.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 07, 2017, 10:26:10 AM
I'll say cross note for Jack Owens, C standard for Frank, and A for Bill Jackson.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on September 08, 2017, 01:07:07 AM
Cross-note Jack Owens,  C for Frank Hovington, A for Bill Jackson whose Freight Train Blues is based on a pre-war hit by Trixie Smith.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 08, 2017, 03:15:46 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Jack Owens, Frank Hovington and Bill Jackson puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 11, 2017, 09:53:42 AM
Hi all,
It appears that all who intended to respond to the most recent set of puzzlers have done so, so I will post the answers.

For Jack Owens' "Keep On Groaning":
   * His playing position was cross-note tuning.  Jack is one of the Bentonia-area players who worked some of the same musical territory as Skip James, playing a lot (though not exclusively) in cross-note tuning.  In listening to Jack Owens' music in recent years, I've discovered that his range was much broader than I had originally thought it, and he was by no means simply a Skip James imitator.  He did a fair amount of stuff in cross-note that Skip was never recorded doing, as well as playing in Dropped-D tuning in the key of A and other non-cross note playing.  Jack Owens was on staff at Port Townsend in one of the early years of the Country Blues workshop there, and as so often seems to have been the case, I didn't spend enough time hearing him then, due to having to work myself.  I can't get that opportunity back now.

For Frank Hovington's "Chimney Hill Breakdown":
   * His playing position was C position in standard tuning.  He begins the second section of the song on an F chord.  Frank Hovington reminds me a bit of John Jackson in that his sense of phrase length and timing were very much his own.

For Bill Jackson's "Freight Train Blues":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning.  You can tell it was played out of A position right at the beginning because he twice does an index finger partial barre slide from the first fret of the second string to the second fret.  You can hear it especially clearly after he first sings the word "that".  Bill Jackson had a really nice album on Testament that was re-issued on CD, and if you can find it, you're in for a treat.  He had a gentle sort of sound.

Thanks to Old Man Ned, Prof Scratchy and blues home for participating, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.

All best,
Johnm 

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 18, 2017, 09:56:45 AM
Hi all,
I thought I would post some more puzzlers for interested parties.  The first is from Lawyer "Soldier Boy" Houston, and is his "Hug Me Baby".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/5k9M45I-Mq0

INTRO

Hug me, baby, hey, hey, hey, squeeze me tight
Squeeze me, baby, one more time, with all your might

When it comes to loving, I know what it's all about
Put your arms around me and you'll soon find it out

Hey, hey, hey, hug me, baby
Hey, hey, hey, squeeze me tight
Squeeze me, baby, one more time, with all your might

Hold me, baby, hey, hey, hey, hold me close
Out of all the women, you know that I love you the most

Hey, hey, hey, hug me, baby
Hey, hey, hey, squeeze me tight
Squeeze me, baby, one more time, with all your might

SOLO

Says, I love you, baby, hope I always will
Every time you love me, you love me with a thrill

Hey, hey, hey, squeeze me, baby
Hey, hey, hey, squeeze me tight
Squeeze me, baby, one time, with all your might

CODA

The questions on "Hug Me Baby" are:
   *  What playing position/tuning did Lawyer Houston use to play the song?
   *  Where did "Soldier Boy" Houston fret the descending run he played from 1:39--1:41?
   *  For his occasional V chords, "Soldier Boy" Houston chose to play what note, named numerically, in the bass?

The second puzzler is from Johnny Howard and is his "Vacation Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/XsFMfTGqdvE

INTRO SOLO

I got a home in that rock, don't you see?
I've got a home in that rock, don't you see?
Just over 'hind the Smoky Mountains, just where the eagles build their nest

She got ways like the devil, she got hair like a horse's mane
She got way like the devil, she got hair like a horse's mane
She got Elgin movements from her head down to her toes

SOLO

When I take my vacation in Heaven, baby, please take your vacation with me
When I take my vacation in Heaven, baby, please take your vacation with me
I'll be laying around on the banks of Jordan, and I'll know that evergreen tree

If I could fly like a eagle, I wouldn't moan like a morning dove
If I could fly like a eagle, I wouldn't moan like a morning dove
When I get up in Heaven, I won't have to moan no more

The questions on "Vacation Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Johnny Howard use to play the song?
   * What was it that you heard that made you select the playing position/tuning that you did?
   * What chord normally played in a blues did Johnny Howard choose to omit?

The third puzzler is "John Tinsley's "Girl Dressed in Green".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/Rp6MfjbUp2Y

INTRO SOLO

Have you seen my girl?  She's all dressed in green
She's the best-looking girl you 'most have ever seen

She got little brown eyes, great long curly hair
She's the best-looking girl you can find 'most anywhere

She leaves in the morning, don't come back 'til night
I know you don't love me and you just won't treat me right

SOLO

I don't see why, that you won't be true
If you loved me, baby, wouldn't treat me like you do

She leaves in the morning, don't come back 'til night
I know you don't love me and you just won't treat me right

The questions on "Girl Dressed in Green" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did John Tinsley use to play the song?
   * Describe where John Tinsley slides to at the very beginning of his rendition, what chord he frets following the slide, and where that chord is fretted.
   * Where did John Tinsley fret the little concluding bass run he plays at :30--:32?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses until 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, September 20.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs and working out your answers.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 20, 2017, 01:52:38 PM
Not sure if other folks are having the same problem as me for viewing the John Tinsley tune, but this one worked for me:

http://youtu.be/Rp6MfjbUp2Y
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 20, 2017, 01:55:09 PM
Apologies, the one I posted also seems to get block but is watchable\hearable on You Tube
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 21, 2017, 01:09:54 AM
Both links work fine for me. And you're in Edinburgh too! Must be localised atmospherics! :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 21, 2017, 12:07:38 PM
Alas, not in Edinburgh any longer.  Moved to Weardale on the outskirts of the Pennines. Must be the sheep on the hills messing up the signal again.

Anyways, for "John Tinsley's "Girl Dressed in Green", I'm hearing in A standard.  I'm hearing  John Tinsley slide into an A chord at the 5th fret (2nd string/5th fret. 3rd string/6th fret. 4th string/7th fret).

The concluding bass run he plays at :30--:32:
5th string: 3bend--0-----0----0
6th string:-------------3----3---

I'm not getting anywhere with  "Vacation Blues" unfortunately and making slow progress with  Lawyer "Soldier Boy" Houston's, "Hug Me Baby".  A standard again?...but need to listen some more.

Love the John Tinsley tune bye the way, which is why I was drawn to it first.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 21, 2017, 12:30:06 PM
Sorry, forgot to say, the above post re John Tinsley is relative to capo around the 3rd fret, which would make it F# (??) not A.....I think I need a lie down....
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 24, 2017, 02:08:57 AM
These are tricky! For Soldier Boy I'm going to hazard a guess and say half Spanish tuning. There's something that reminds me of Lil Son Jackson in the playing here. The Johnny Howard track is especially hard to listen to due to the piano, which sounds like it was recorded underwater in a neighbouring swimming pool! Anyway, I'll plump for E standard here. The John Tinsley song seems to utilise Blind Boy Fuller ideas in A standard. Apologies for not getting into the detailed questions, but I've found the puzzlers particularly puzzling! Good though! Hoping some other folk will chime in soon, as me and Old Man Ned are feeling lonely.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 24, 2017, 04:23:48 PM
Hi all,
Any more takers for the Lawyer "Soldier Boy" Houston, Johnny Howard and John Tinsley puzzlers.  Join Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy and take your shot at the puzzlers.  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on September 25, 2017, 04:35:57 AM
These are tough, I'll stick with my 1st impressions"

Spanish for Soldier Boy
Vastapol for Johnny Howard
A standard for John Tingley

I'm trying to place where I've heard a similar sound to Johnny Howard, it's in the memory banks somewhere.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 25, 2017, 12:28:01 PM
The feel of Little Son Jackson in "Soldier Boy" Houston's "Hug Me Baby" had gone right past me but yeah, I can hear it now.  I'm still thinking A standard though.  The bass note he keeps thumping sounds like an A on the open 5th string to me, though there are other parts of the tune that make me feel less confident of A standard.  I did consider, A out of a dropped D tuning but the low D on the 6th string isn't jumping out at me any where.

Phew, what a puzzler!  :)  I'm still no nearer on the Johnny Howard tune but the question of what "you heard that made you select the playing position/tuning" suggests there's a big give-a-way in the tune somewhere....I've just not heard it yet!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 26, 2017, 09:34:03 AM
Hi all,
Any Americans or Canadians care to join the stalwarts from the British Isles in hazarding answers to the Lawyer "Soldier Boy" Houston, Johnny Howard and John Tinsley puzzlers?  Come one, come all--answer all the questions or just one.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 27, 2017, 12:05:46 AM
Finns are also acceptable.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 27, 2017, 11:22:53 AM
Good point, Scratchy!  Actually, posters from anywhere are welcome.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 01, 2017, 04:59:44 PM
Hi all,
It appears no one else is going to post answers to the most recent puzzlers, so here are the answers:

For Lawyer "Soldier Boy" Houston's "Hug Me, Baby":
   * His playing position/tuning was A position in standard tuning.  The aural clues which indicates A position in standard tuning as opposed to Spanish tuning or DGDGBE tuning a la Lil' Son Jackson are his occasional V chords, which are definitely E chords, with the third of the chord at the first fret of the third string rather than D chords.  You can hear that as the song goes from :24--:25, and again at :44.
   * Lawyer Houston played the run from 1:39--1:41 as follows: The run starts on the + of beat one, with the fifth fret of the first string as he fingers a "long A" chord.  On 2 +, he goes from the fifth fret of the first string to the fifth fret of the second string.  On 3 +, he goes from the fourth fret of the second string to the third fret of the second string.  On beat 4, he does a grace note hammer from the first fret of the second string to the third fret of the second string and on the + of beat four, he re-strikes the first fret of the second fret, resolving down to the second fret of the third string on the downbeat of the next measure.
   * For his occasional V chords, "Soldier Boy" Houston continued to play the I note, the open fifth string, in the bass.

For Johnny Howard's "Vacation Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning or EAEGBE.
   * In the intro to the song, you can hear Johnny Howard hammering into the major third of the I chord at the first fret of the third string, a couple of times.  That hammer eliminates Vestapol from the running, but still leaves cross-note tuning, EAEGBE tuning and E position in standard tuning in the running.  At :10, he goes to a IV chord with the low root of the chord hit on the fifth string.  This eliminates cross-note tuning from the running, since in cross-note tuning you have a V note on the open fifth string.  At this point, only EAEGBE and E position in standard tuning are the only remaining possibilities.  He never really hits a V chord, which would help greatly in differentiating between EAEGBE and E position in standard tuning.  In favor of EAEGBE, he never hits a note other than the I note on the fourth string, and that note is never inflected or hammered into.  In favor of E position in standard tuning is the relative rarity of the use of EAEGBE tuning.  If I had to choose, I would go for E position in standard tuning, but I don't consider it to be at all a certainty.  This is a very hard identification, especially considering the brutal sound quality, which Pro Scratchy mentioned.
  * Johnny Howard never hits or acknowledges the V chord.

For John Tinsley's "Girl Dressed In Green":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning.
   * John Tinsley slides into the seventh fret of the fourth string and plays an A chord at the beginning of his rendition, fingering in addition the sixth fret of the third string and the fifth fret of the second string, thus playing an A chord out of an F shape.
   * John Tinsley fretted the bass run he plays from :30--:32 as follows:  On beat 1, he hits the open fifth string.  On beat two he hits the bent third fret of the fifth string.  On 3 +, he goes from the open fifth string to the fourth fret of the sixth string.  On 4 +, he goes from the open fifth string to the third fret of the fifth string, resolving back to the open fifth string on the downbeat of the next measure. 

John Tinsley's playing and singing both remind me a bit of John Jackson, who, like Tinsley, hailed from Virginia.

Thanks to Old Man Ned, Prof Scratchy and blueshome for participating in the puzzlers and posting answers.

All best,
Johnm     
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 02, 2017, 12:11:42 AM
Thanks to Johnm for posting the answers to this tricky round of puzzlers. I really would encourage as many fellow weenies as possible to have a go at these. You don?t have to answer the detail of the questions if you don?t have the time to work them out. Often the challenge for me is getting the tuning right! The puzzlers have introduced me to artists and songs that I never knew existed, and I?ve been collecting blues records for over fifty years. We really need to keep the pot boiling on this key forum feature, and I know there are lots of experienced listeners, collectors and players from around the world who visit here. Come on, get involved, folks!


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on October 02, 2017, 12:38:40 PM
"Come on, get involved, folks!"  Seconded!!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 02, 2017, 12:52:09 PM
Exactly what Prof Scratchy said.  Couldn't agree more!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 08, 2017, 10:15:58 AM
Hi all,
I looked back at the beginning of this thread and was reminded that when it was started, there was only one puzzler posted at a time.  Perhaps three at once is a bit of overkill, or seems too daunting for many folks to try.  To that end, I'll post just one puzzler this time, and it is by the very same musician that the first puzzler featured, Andrew Dunham.  Here is his performance of "Rocky Mountain":

https://youtu.be/lCFT2AJctOU

INTRO

Rocky Mountain, Rocky Mountain, is a long ways to go
Yeah, Rocky Mountain, Rocky Mountain, is a long ways to go

My baby left me this morning, she left with the rising sun, says she's Rocky Mountain bound, 'fore the evening sun go down
Rocky Mountain ain't no place for me
Yeah, Rocky Mountain ain't no place for me

GUITAR INTERLUDE

When I got to Rocky Mountain, I found that dissipatin' woman, I stood and watched that woman, tears rolled down her cheek
I stood and watched that woman, ah, tears rolled down her cheek
Said, she's a dissipatin' woman, she ain't no good nowhere she go

When I found that woman, I could hardly keep from cryin',
Oh yeah, I could hardly keep from cryin'
(GUITAR FILLS)
Yes, she's a dissipatin' woman, she ain't no good nowhere she go
Ooo, she ain't no good nowhere she go

GUITAR SOLO

You know, you know, you know
You know my time ain't long
Yeah,  you know, you know my time ain't long
Yes, I'm gon' find that woman, find her Rocky Mountain-bound

Now, look here people, Rocky Mountain, ain't no place for me, but I've got to go to Rocky Mountain, to find the one I love
Rocky Mountain ain't no place for me

OUTRO



The questions on Andrew Dunham's "Rocky Mountain" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where is Andrew Dunham fretting the first two strings from :52--:56?
   * At 2:16, Andrew Dunham is playing a harmonized triplet on two treble strings.  What strings is he playing there, and where is he fretting them?

Please us only your ears and your musical instruments to come up with your answers, and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, October 10.  Don't feel as though you need not respond unless you can answer all three questions.  The first question is by far the most important, because it determines the answers to the second and third questions.  Answer them all or just one.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy Andrew Dunham's "Rocky Mountain".
All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 10, 2017, 01:20:32 PM
I'm hearing Andrew Dunham's "Rocky Mountain" in A standard with Andrew Dunham fretting the first two strings from :52--:56 at the 8th & 7th frets respectively and then the 5th fret for both strings.
   
At 2:16, the harmonized triplet on two treble strings I'm hearing on the 2nd and 3rd strings at the 5th and 9th frets respectively.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 13, 2017, 03:10:54 AM
I agree with Old Man Ned for the first two parts of the puzzler: A standard, then 'fretting the first two strings from :52--:56 at the 8th & 7th frets respectively and then the 5th fret for both strings'. For the third part, I'm going to say that he might have been playing the open first string against the bend  fourth fret of the second string.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 14, 2017, 02:34:22 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Andrew Dunham puzzlers on his "Rocky Mountain"?  Come one, come all--live dangerously!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on October 16, 2017, 02:40:14 AM
Forgot to post - what the Prof said - A standard etc.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harvey on October 16, 2017, 07:51:21 AM
John I agree with posting one at a time I think that works. However not many responses! 
Little bit influenced by earlier posters I will admit however I did get to A standard.

:52 to :56 I think is on the 7th/8th fret
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on October 17, 2017, 04:23:56 AM
Hooray! That's one more - come on guys and gals.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 17, 2017, 04:40:04 AM
And how about someone not from the UK for a change? Come on, US, EUR, OZ folks!

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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on October 18, 2017, 01:22:59 AM
I don't usually stick my head up for this -- I hate being wrong alla time. But after all those pleas ... key is A natural (it threw me for a bit until I realised he was in concert pitch); I also propose 7/8 frets on top strings for the 52-56 bit, and I think the triplet MIGHT be either 5th fret 2nd string against open top (tuning's a bit suss) or bent 4th fret 2nd string against open top.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 22, 2017, 01:10:28 PM
Hi all,
The Andrew Dunham puzzler on "Rocky Mountain" has been up for a good while, so I think I'll post the answers.  Thanks to harvey and alyoung for joining Old Man Ned, Prof Scratchy and blueshome in posting responses.

For Andrew Dunham's "Rocky Mountain":
   * His playing position/tuning was A position in standard tuning
   * For the passage from :52--:56, Andrew Dunham fretted the first two strings, first fretting both strings at the eighth fret, then fretting both strings at the fifth fret, then rocking back and forth between those two positions, always fretting both strings simultaneously at either the eighth or fifth fret.  Those parallel fourths that he plays in this passage have almost an Asian sound to them.
   * At 2:16, the harmonized triplet that Andrew Dunham plays involves fretting the third and second strings, both at the fifth fret.  At 2:15, he slides into the fifth fret of the second string.  As he begins to brush the two strings, he adds the fifth fret of the third string for the triplet at 2:16.  When he resolves his melody downward from the triplet to the third fret of the second string, he takes the third string along for the ride, too, fretting the third string at the third fret as well, getting a really exotic sound there, by playing a B flat note on the third string, third fret, while playing an A blues.

I sure wish Andrew Dunham had been recorded more, even though most of his recorded titles are pretty similar to each other.  His tone on the electric guitar is very exciting-sounding to me, and the roughness and "countryness" of his playing is quite appealing.

I think I will stick to the one-song puzzlers in this thread going forward.  I think it makes participating less of a job.  Thanks again to all who posted this time, and I hope folks enjoyed the song.  I'll look for another song to post soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 24, 2017, 12:17:17 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested, William Stewart's "County Farm Blues" (titled in the youtube video "Country Farm Blues" despite the fact that William Stewart sings "county").  Here is the track, which was evidently recorded for Sun Records early on:

https://youtu.be/4iUSjYZiOEA

INTRO

Lord, but I'm goin', won't be gone so long
And don't count the days I'm gone
Well, my gal done left me, gone out on the County Farm

Thirty days in the workhouse, babe
Sixty days in the workhouse, babe
Well, my gal had nothin' to come and pay my bond

Write me a letter, baby
But it's, please, don't write it wrong
When you back your letter, back it back it in the County Farm

The questions on "County Farm Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did William Stewart use to play the song?
   * Where did William Stewart fret the moving lines in his bass from :07--:15?
   * In the course of the song, William Stewart only frets his first string at the ___ and ___ frets.

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, October 26.  Thanks to all who participate and I hope you enjoy the song.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on October 25, 2017, 03:15:03 PM
Do I wanna do this again? Be wrong again? Well? OK

Tuning: Spanish. Key G
The early-on bass line: 4th string 3rd fret, 4th string open, then up and down down the 5th string fret 5, 3 open, 3, 5 3 open, alternating each fifth-string note with the open 4th
Top-string fretting: 3rd and 5th frets.

PS: Thanks, John, I had that damn riff on my mind all night.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 26, 2017, 01:02:50 AM
I?m far away from guitars for the next week and a bit, so I?ll agree with Al - sounds like that young man could be onto something!


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frailer24 on October 26, 2017, 01:39:18 AM
I'm gonna chime in on tuning and go with Spanish as well. Haven't got much time to study the tune this week.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on October 26, 2017, 03:25:47 AM
I'm out on a limb then, I don't hear anything below a G on the bottom string. I'm going for E standard capped up to G. The phrase is then played out of an E shape with a final up bend on the bottom E string.The little intro phrase also falls out in E.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on October 26, 2017, 03:27:37 AM
Just an aside, I posted before that William "Talking Boy" Stewart was a great Blind Lemon follower - hear his Talking Boy blues.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 26, 2017, 12:30:26 PM
Great tune and William Stewart is new to me.  I'm hearing this in open G and am in agreement with alyoung for the bass line and frets of the top string.  That's what I'm hearing too.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harvey on October 26, 2017, 02:22:35 PM
I am really struggling but love the song so looking forward to hearing how it is played

Like blueshome I am struggling with the base in Spanish it doesn?t seem to go low enough of on the e string although Spanish was my first instinct without a guitar.

So going to try something different and say A
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: islandgal on October 27, 2017, 02:48:25 PM
Open tuning in G.
My guess on the bass riff is:
4th string, fret at 5, open, fret at 3, open,
5th string, fret at 3, open.

Early on he plays the first string at the 3rd and then 5th fret.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 31, 2017, 11:42:47 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though all of the responses are in to the puzzler on William Stewart's "Country [sic] Farm Blues", so I'll post the answers.

For William Stewart's "County Farm Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was Spanish tuning
   * William Stewart fretted the moving bass line from :07--:15 as follows:  3rd fret fourth string, open fourth string, bent fifth fret of the fifth string, open fourth string, bent third fret of fifth string, open fourth string, open fifth string, open fourth string, bent third fret fifth string, open fourth string, bent fifth fret of the fifth string, open fourth string, bent third fret of the fifth string , open fourth string, open fifth string, open fourth string, etc.  He strikes all of this notes with the thumb of his picking hand and interjects occasional little brush strokes of the open first and second strings in between them.  So the only places he's fretting in this passage are the third fret of the fourth string and the third and fifth frets of the fifth string.  One thing that really goes a long way in making the distinctive sound of this passage is that bent fifth fret of the fifth string--unbent, that note would be a IV note, but bent it is a #IV, which is a sound that will really make your scalp hurt--funky!
   * William Stewart only frets his first string at the third and fifth frets.

Thanks to all who participated in this puzzler.  It's great to see more people involved, and this seems an affirmation that posting only one puzzler at a time is the way to go.  I hope folks enjoyed the song, and I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on October 31, 2017, 11:35:34 PM
Hot damn! That's the closest I've come to getting it right. Wheee!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 01, 2017, 06:37:40 AM
Twigged after I'd posted that the bend on the low string was sitting there in Spanish and everything else worked.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 02, 2017, 09:13:08 AM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It's from Jesse Fuller and it's his performance of "99 Years And One Dark Day".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/p0GP0vzC6t0

Spoken:  Here's "Ninety-Nine Years And One Dark Day".  The ninety-nine years is when you got lifetime, the dark day's when you're dead, that's too bad for you.

INTRO SOLO (humming, Got ninety-nine years, one dark day)

I committed a crime, many years ago
Shot my woman, with a .44
She had another man, rolling in my hay
Got ninety-nine year and one dark day

Well, they put me in prison, with a ball and chain
Worked me every day, in the drizzle and the rain
The warden told me, "You're here to stay,
For ninety-nine years, one dark day."

SOLO

Well, I got in a fight, believe to my soul
They're gonna put me in the dungeon, where it's dark and cold
I laid in the dungeon, all the month of May
Got ninety-nine years, one dark day

Well, the food is bad, and the bed is hard
Don't tell me, go and tell it to the guard
Said to me, "Be happy and gay,
Got ninety-nine years, here and one dark day."

SOLO (oh ah, mmmm)

Lifetime in prison, they begin to sing
Lifetime in prison, here in the rain
They said to me, "Be happy and gay,
Got ninety-nine year, one dark day."

SOLO

The questions on "99 Years And One Dark Day" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jesse Fuller use to play the song?
   * Using Roman numerals to describe the chords, map out the progression to "99 Years and One Dark Day".
   * Where did Jesse Fuller fret the second chord he played in his opening solo and most of his verses?

Please use only your ears and your guitar to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before noon, your time, on Sunday, November 5.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 06, 2017, 07:43:14 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Jesse Fuller puzzler, "Ninety-Nine Years And One Dark Day"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harvey on November 06, 2017, 09:37:45 AM
I don't know on the key position so will take a guess...

I have the chords :

I  V  I  IV  I  V  I

I think it might be A standard tuned low, if so I will have a go at the third question when I have a guitar in hand.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on November 06, 2017, 11:09:26 AM
- E standard tuned low
- Chords for the verse are:

|I---|V7---|V7---|I---|
|I--I7|IV7---|I-V7-|I---|

-Second chord in is a A7 shape slid up two frets to B7, so first string at 5th fret, second third and fourth string barred at 4th fret
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harvey on November 06, 2017, 12:07:34 PM
Can I change my mind ? I have E standard also
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 06, 2017, 12:22:33 PM
I'm hearing this in C standard, but tuned a half step high (ie capo on 1st fret?)

I'm with Lastfirstface on the chord progression.  I'm struggling with the last couple of bars but the 2nd and 3rd bars I'm hearing a V7 over both bars.

The second chord, I'm hearing as a G7 (assuming C standard):
1
0
0
0
2
3
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 07, 2017, 06:58:17 AM
To avoid repetition I'm with Lastfirstface all the way.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on November 07, 2017, 05:05:01 PM
Hi all,

Agreed with Lastfisrstface's analysis as well.

I'll just add, that I think the later instrumental verses differ a bit, maybe with something like this:

|| I | I | IV7 | I |

| I | I ||

There might be a slight or suggestive IV or V chords thrown in. The exact number of bars or beats seem to vary as well.

Cheers,

Pan
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frailer24 on November 08, 2017, 12:43:40 AM
Gotta say, I'm going with Pan and Last on this one. It all makes sense to my good ear!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 08, 2017, 01:57:16 AM
Me too!


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 11, 2017, 09:44:24 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the puzzler on Jesse Fuller's "Ninety-Nine Years and One Dark Day" has done so, so I will post the answers.

For "Ninety-Nine Years and One Dark Day":
   * Jesse Fuller's playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning
   * His bar structure for the song, expressed in Roman numerals, was as follows:
      |   I   |    I    |   V7   |   V7   |
      |   V7 |  V7   |   I      |   I     |
      |    I   |   I7  |   IV7   |   IV7 |
      |    I   |  V7  |   I      |    I     |
      His progression is very similar to that of "Irene, Goodnight", though the song is not in 3/4
   * His first chord change is to a V7 chord, fingered for the playing position he was working in as Lastfirstface had it, a B7 played by moving the common A7 fingering on the top four strings up two frets:  X-X-4-4-4-5.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the song.  I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 15, 2017, 04:00:05 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  The song is "Worried Blues" by Hot Rod Happy, who recorded elsewhere as Country Jim or Country Jim Bledsoe.  Here is Hot Rod Happy's performance of "Worried Blues":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRkn868VnPA

INTRO

Carry me down in the alley, put me deep down in my grave
Carry me down in the alley, put me deep down in my grave
Just before you leave, please pour clay dirt in my face

Well, I try so hard to make you love me, all alone my roamin' days
Tried so hard to make you love me, all alone my roamin' days
Well, my trouble'll soon be over, carry me and put me in my grave

SOLO (Spoken:  Yeah!)

I believe I'd be better, if I was six feet underground
B'lieve I would be better, 'f I was six feet underground
There wouldn't be no one there, oh Lord, to turn me down

The questions on Hot Rod Happy's "Worried Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did He use to play the song?
   * Name the point in the intro at which Hot Rod Happy plays something that conclusively determines his playing position/tuning.
   * Where did Hot Rod Happy fret and play what he plays from 2:14--2:16?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday, November 18.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 19, 2017, 01:24:49 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the puzzler on Hot Rod Happy's "Worried Blues"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 20, 2017, 05:29:48 AM
Well, I?m not too happy with this, but the best I can come with is standard tuning in E. At about 9 seconds in he seems to hammer on the second fret of the fourth string. There are also riffs reminiscent of Muddy Waters? playing in E. The bit from 2.14 to 2.16 could be him sliding from xxx32x to xxx43x  ??



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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on November 20, 2017, 10:17:27 AM
I'll agree with the professor.

I think I'm hearing the open E. A. D. and G strings in the intro, and maybe a hammer on on the 1st fret of the G string, but I'm not really sure about what would be the definite proof for the E-standard.

At 2:14 I think I'm hearing the double stop Prof Scratchy describes slid in, maybe with the added open 1st string. Maybe followed by a pull off or a slide from the 4th fret of the 3rd string to the 2nd fret, and followed by the open 3rd string and 2nd fret on the 4th string.

Cheers

Pan
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 20, 2017, 01:08:31 PM
I'm in agreement with the Prof too. 

E standard and the hammer on to the E on the 4th string was convincing me. The only thing that was making me doubt was the low bass note at about 4 seconds, where he seems to slap/snap the (what to me sounds like) the open low E string.  It wasn't sounding like an E but on re-listening I think he's dampening the sound a bit and that's what was throwing me.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 21, 2017, 03:38:47 AM
I agree with the others E standard. I listened to this a dozen times and the head says E but I I've had to convince myself as it sounds wrong but all the moves that have been outlined fit. Maybe its just the level of distortion.......
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 24, 2017, 09:22:14 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers on the Hot Rod Happy puzzler, "Worried Blues"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: chickenlegs on November 24, 2017, 04:50:13 PM
Thanks for doing this thread Johnm. I've been looking in on it for awhile and thought I'd attempt it this time. The previous replies helped and it sure sounds like E standard, but seems to easy, so I'll be contrary and say it's in cross note tuning. The intro maybe has an open 5th string to open 4th sting stumbled bass? It does sound like a hammer in there the second time it's played though. The last bit as everyone else has it.
Good tune, it's does have a real crossover sound, somewhere between acoustic and electric blues al la Muddy as the Prof said.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: chickenlegs on November 24, 2017, 07:34:19 PM
Listening again, I think that hammered bass in the intro is the 5th string open to 5th string 3rd fret, then the 4th string is played open. So yeah, cross note, maybe.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 26, 2017, 10:17:12 AM
Hi all,
The Hot Rod Happy/Country Jim Bledsoe puzzler, "Worried Blues", has generated all of the responses I think it is going to get, so I'll post the answers.

For Hot Rod Happy's "Worried Blues":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning
   * The point in his intro at which Hot Rod Happy plays something that conclusively determines his playing position/tuning is at :07.  At :07, he first hammers from a IV note to a V note on the fifth string, immediately followed by a hammer from a bVII note to a I note on the fourth string.  The hammer from IV to V on the fifth string eliminates Vestapol and cross-note tuning as being possibilities for his tuning, since in both of those tunings the fifth string is tuned to a V note, making a IV to V hammer impossible.  The hammer from bVII to I on the fourth string eliminates EAEGBE tuning from the realm of possibility, since in that tuning the fourth string is already pitched at a I note, making a hammer from the bVII note impossible.  The remaining possibility:  E position in standard tuning, in which both hammers are easily achieved by going from the open fifth string to the second fret of the fifth string for the IV to V hammer and from the open fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string for the bVII to I hammer.
   * Hot Rod Happy fretted what he played from 2:14 to 2:16 as follows:  The phrase starts with a slide to the fourth fret of the third string on the + of beat 1.  On beat 2, Hot Rod Happy plays a triplet, going from the fifth fret of the second string (or open first string) to the fourth fret of the third string, struck twice.  On 3 +, Hot Rod Happy goes from the fourth fret of the third string to the second fret of the fourth string.  Since he plays this phrase as a three-beat measure, the next note he hits, an open sixth string, is the downbeat of the next measure.

Despite the fact that Hot Rod Happy/Country Jim Bledsoe is playing an electric guitar, his playing and singing on "Worried Blues" strikes me as being Country Blues all the way, much in the same way that the music of Lightnin' Hopkins or John Lee Hooker is Country Blues, with asymmetrical phrasing, not holding to a consistent formal archetype over the course of the rendition, and having meter ruled by phrase length, rather than the reverse.

Thanks to all who responded to the puzzler and I will look for another to post soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: WillMo on November 26, 2017, 06:10:47 PM
Thanks very much John I've got a lot out of this great tune with the questions and descriptions so far!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 27, 2017, 10:26:29 AM
Good for you, Will!  I hope you enjoy working on it and playing it.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 27, 2017, 10:35:59 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is "Poor Kennedy", by Avery Brady, and it was originally released on a Testament album devoted to songs that were reactions to John F. Kennedy's assassination:  "Can't Keep From Crying".  I hesitated about making a quiz of this performance--I think it is one of the most beautiful things I've heard in a long time, and I think an excess of "how did he do that?" type analysis isn't called for and wouldn't get at the essence of the song in any case.  It reminds me a little bit of Henry Spaulding's "Cairo Blues" in its treatment of rhythm and feel, and what singing!  Here is Avery Brady's performance of "Poor Kennedy":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0BQCgvNUP8

Well, I know, my poor Kenn'y
Ridin' down the street, in his car
Some poor enemy, shoot him down
Then he fell, in his wife arms

Well, I mmmmm, hallelujah
Way down the road, that I give out
I will go, poor Kenn'y
Go on down, down in the ground

Mmmmmmm, thing was sad
They was blue, they had eyes closed
My job, sad in the world
Look at the hearses, passin' us by
My God, the grave

Well, my Kenn'y, tried to be
Be for the poor, black, or for the rich
But some gun, shoot him down
Put him in the ground

SOLO

Yeah, I all I have, say "Bye, Kenn'y.
I will meet you, in that Heaven,
Some old day."

Mmmmmmmmmmmm, feel so bad
'Bout Kenn'y's gone
Goin' down, down in the ground

What playing position/tuning did Avery Brady use to play "Poor Kennedy"?

Please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, November 30.  Thanks for participating and I hope you find "Poor Kennedy" as striking as I do.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 01, 2017, 09:55:46 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the puzzler on Avery Brady's "Poor Kennedy"?  Ain't but the one question--come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on December 02, 2017, 06:42:50 AM
I'll take punt - Standard tuning key of B. Just played out of a regular B7position.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: chickenlegs on December 02, 2017, 07:29:30 AM
I'm gonna say? B position, standard tuning, using the first position B7 chord. It could be C position, but I think it would be harder to play there. It sounds pitched at B and seems to not move beyond the first two frets.
What a great one chord song, it reminds me of the "Catfish Blues" family of songs in sung melody? the guitar accompaniment is original though. I really like that choked chicken scratch treble work behind the verses.

I see blueshome beat me to the post.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 02, 2017, 08:26:19 AM
But what about the run in the last few seconds and the very low last note?  That discounts B in standard tuning for me.  He sounds about 2 steps low going by the last note.  I first thought he was a little low and playing out of C but the end bit is throwing me.  Is he tuned really low and playing out of E?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: chickenlegs on December 02, 2017, 11:01:16 AM
Yeah! You're right Old Man Ned. That last note sounds an octave lower than the root at the 2nd fret of the 5th string in B position. And that ending turnaround does sound like a typical E position move. I think you're right, he's tuned way low.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 03, 2017, 02:26:14 AM
I?m going to say EAEGBE tuning, tuned down to B.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on December 03, 2017, 05:32:51 AM
Yes the last low note I missed. So E tuned down.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 05, 2017, 02:59:06 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers in the Avery Brady "Poor Kennedy" puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 08, 2017, 09:24:37 AM
Hi all,
It appears that all of the responses are in on the puzzler on Avery Brady's "Poor Kennedy", so I'll post the answer.

Avery Brady's "Poor Kennedy" was played out of E position in standard tuning, though tuned quite low, at BEADF#B.  Good work by Old Man Ned to first smoke it out that the song was played out of E position.  Having gotten to E position, hammers to the major third at the first fret of the third string ruled out Vestapol, leaving cross-note, EAEGBE and E position standard tuning as possibilities.  At :02, Avery Brady hits a low IV note on the fifth string, eliminating cross-note tuning as a possibility leaving EAEGBE and E position, standard tuning in the running.  At :12--:13, he hits a bVII note on the fourth string, eliminating EAEGBE as a possibility, so all that remains is E position in standard tuning. 

All that having been said, I think it's apparent that making the distinction between these different tunings/positions on "Poor Kennedy" requires a kind of extreme close listening that is very different from the way we normally listen to music--certainly different than the way we listen to music for our own pleasure.  But as a way of illustrating the kind of aural process of elimination that is required to differentiate between the sounds of Vestapol, cross-note, EAEGBE and E position, standard tuning, it is exemplary.  And what a beautiful piece!  I think Pete Welding was pretty astute to devote an entire album to songs that Blues singers sang about John F. Kennedy's assassination, for it hit that community very hard.  I remember seeing and hearing Sleepy John Estes with Yank Rachell doing a "President Kennedy Blues" at the Ann Arbor Blues Festival in the summer of '69 or '70, some years after the assassination.

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzler, and I hope people were struck by Avery Brady's performance of "Poor Kennedy" as I was.  I will look for another puzzler to post soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 13, 2017, 09:29:18 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for folks who are interested.  The song is "Broke Down Engine", as performed by Tony Bryant, who was recorded by Art Rosenbaum.  Here is Tony Bryant's performance:

https://youtu.be/1YqSkhzAja0

The questions on Tony Bryant's "Broke Down Engine" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Tony Bryant use to play the song?
   * Where did Tony Bryant fret what he played from :22--:27?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, December 15.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 17, 2017, 02:02:34 PM
Hi all,
Any takers on the puzzlers on Tony Bryant's "Broke Down Engine"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: alyoung on December 18, 2017, 02:09:22 AM
Well.... OK.  He?s in Spanish tuning, key of G, on a 12-string guitar. The 022-027 run is played on the bass string, open and 2nd fret, and the fifth string open and third fret (bent). (Interesting, but I think I still prefer McTell's version).
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 18, 2017, 12:39:15 PM
I'm hearing this in open G too. For the bit from :22--:27 I'm hearing:

0-----0--3b-3b-0-0---0
---2b----------------2b

on the 5th & 6th strings, where b is a bend (of varying degrees).
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frailer24 on December 19, 2017, 03:00:19 PM
I have to agree with Ned here, as it all sounds correct to me!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harvey on December 21, 2017, 06:48:46 AM
I didn't have a clue on the last two so I chose not to respond... however I will go for Spanish on this one like those before me

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on December 22, 2017, 03:48:17 AM
sorry just got to this, been afflicted by some horrid throat infection.

My first thought without a guitar was C tuned down but having messed about and tried to play -  Spanish
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: islandgal on December 22, 2017, 08:54:56 AM
from 22-27,
My guess is: Open G tuning
6th string:  open, 2rd fret,
5th string:  open, 3rd fret twice (bending), 5th string open
6th string:  open, 2rd fret, 5th string open
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 26, 2017, 02:38:04 PM
Hi all,
I hope you had a Merry Christmas.  The puzzler on Tony Bryant's version of "Broke Down Engine" has been up for a while with no recent responses so I think I'll post the answers.  Here they are:

For Tony Bryant's version of "Broke Down Engine":
   * His playing position/tuning was Spanish tuning, as every responder had it--well done!
   * In the passage from :22--:27, he fretted it as follows:  On the + of beat one, he hit the open sixth string.  On 2+ he went from the second fret of the sixth string to the open fifth string.  On beat three, he hit the fifth string at the the third fret, bent.  On 4+, he went from the bent third fret of the fifth string to the open fifth string, tying that open fifth string into the downbeat of the next measure.  On the + of beat one in the next measure, he again struck the open sixth string.  On 2+, he went from the second fret of the sixth string to the open fifth string, tying the open fifth string into beat three.  That pretty much captures the passage in question.  Old Man Ned and islandgal both had this passage sussed out really nicely.  It's interesting that by playing the piece on a 12-string in Spanish, Tony Bryant was able to get this passage sounding in octaves despite essentially fretting single strings (though his pairs are tuned in octave courses).  For some reason, I feel like the same sound would be more effective on a 6-string guitar with the octaves fretted on different strings, much as Skip James played "Special Rider" or Charlie Patton played "Pea Vine Blues".

I hope you enjoyed "Broke Down Engine", and thanks to all who participated in the puzzler.  I'll look for another to post soon.
All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 03, 2018, 10:59:02 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for folks who are interested.  It is by Lovey Williams, and it is his version of "Coal Black Mare", recorded by Bill Ferris in Morning Star, Mississippi in 1968.  Here is Lovey Williams' "Coal Black Mare":

https://youtu.be/lA63DNsysNE

(Spoken:  This is a little piece I like, that "Coal Black Mare", I'm gon' holler that right quick, I ain't gonna play it long.)

INTRO

Yes, I loves that old mama, because she was good to me
Yes, I love that mama, because she's so good to me

Yes, I curl her mane, I put sterilized shoes on her feet
Yes, I curl her mane, mama, I put shoes all on her feet
Yes, I love that horse because she was good to me

She's got cut in place, and I know she's gon' win her race
She put cut in place, and I know she's gon' win her race
Ain't no need of you worryin', and I sure ain't gon' give her 'way

Yes, I love that horse, she got long black curly mane
Yes, I love that horse, she got long black curly mane
Yes, I love that mama, I can tell 'er from another man

I got a coal black mare, mama, oh Lord, how my horse can run
I got a coal black mare, mama, oh Lord, how my horse can run
Yes, I love that horse, 'cause she sure gon' win her race

Here are the questions on Lovey Williams' "Coal Black Mare":
   * What playing position/tuning did Lovey Williams use to play the song?
   * Where did Lovey Williams fret the fill he played from :25--:27?
   * Where did Lovey Williams fret what he played under the first four bars of his verse, from :40--:52?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, January 5.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 06, 2018, 03:46:28 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Lovey Williams puzzlers?  Come one, come all--answer one question or all of them!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 07, 2018, 08:22:48 AM
Not sure about this one, but I'll say:


* What playing position/tuning did Lovey Williams use to play the song? - standard tuned a half step low?
   * Where did Lovey Williams fret the fill he played from :25--:27? - on the second string he goes from first fret to second, then hammers on and pulls off the third. He then plays the G string open followed by the bent third fret of the G string, then the G string open again.
   * Where did Lovey Williams fret what he played under the first four bars of his verse, from :40--:52? - bends first string at 6th fret resolving to third fret, then second string at the 6th fret, then back to bent first string, sixth fret and first string third  fret.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lyndvs on January 07, 2018, 10:06:46 AM
Crossnote?.
:25-:27 third string-1st fret,2nd fret,slide to fourth fret,2nd fret,4th string open,4th string 3rd fret bend,4th string open.
:40-:52  bend 2nd string 8th fret with first string open,5th fret 2nd string with first string open,3rd string seventh fret,bend at 8th fret 2nd string(bend up then hit string again releasing bend )first string open,5th fret 2nd string with first sounding open.
I dunno....I like it though!.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 07, 2018, 12:04:58 PM
I'm hearing Lovey Williams' "Coal Black Mare" in G standard too.

The fill he plays from :25--:27 I'm hearing as:
---1-3b-1------------
3b---------3b-0-3b-0
on the 2nd and 3rd strings out of a C7 shape

I'm getting similar sounds to what he plays under the first four bars of his verse, from :40--:52 from a G minor chord:
--6
--8
--7
also using the f at the 6th fret on the 2nd string, but not sure this is what Lovey Williams is doing.

Yeah, great tune.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 09, 2018, 06:04:05 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Lovey Williams puzzler, "Coal Black Mare"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 10, 2018, 03:06:05 AM
Now I?ve sa down with a guitar, what the Professor said. What a nice piece to play, everything under the fingers...

Based on the Arthur Crudup song of the same title.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 13, 2018, 10:03:22 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the Lovey Williams puzzler on "Coal Black Mare" has done so, so I will post the answers.  Here goes:

For Lovey Williams' "Coal Black Mare":
   * His playing position/tuning was G position in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy, Old Man Ned and blueshome had it.
   * Lovey Williams fretted the fill he played from :25--:27 as follows:  The fill begins on beat two of the measure, and begins with a triplet going from the open second string to the first fret of the second string and then the third fret of the second string.  On beat three, Lovey Williams played another triplet, starting at the first fret of the second string, pulling off to the open second string and resolving to the open third string.  On beat 4+, he goes from the bent third fret of the third string, resolving to the open third string.  He holds down the third fret of the sixth string and strikes it intermittently while playing the fill.
   * For the first four bars of his verse, from :40--:52, Lovey Williams keeps returning to a bent sixth fret of the first string, but is otherwise just playing the first four strings open.  The movement between the bent sixth fret of the first string and the open first string is especially striking sounding, really special, and not a sound I've heard other players working out of G position in standard tuning use.

Lovey Williams' playing shows an interesting combination of influences, I think.  Certainly, Arthur Crudup is in there, in the choice of the song, and the melody that Lovey Williams sang.  I'm also hearing some Tommy McClennan influence in Lovey's sound in G; the first fill discussed in the puzzler is very close to a fill that Tommy McClennan used a lot when playing in G position, as on "New Highway 51 Blues".  And looking further back, there seems to be a bit of Ishmon Bracey's sound when playing in G position in standard tuning.  Lovey Williams' IV7 and V7 chords of choice, just moving a C7 shape up and down the neck are different than those used by Bracey and Tommy McClennan, though.  He's really his own man.  I sure like both his playing and singing.

Thanks to those who participated in the puzzler, and I'll look for another to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 17, 2018, 08:51:31 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is "Pony Blues", as recorded by Johnny Young.  I tend to think of Johnny as a Chicago player, but he was born in Mississippi, like a lot of musicians who ended up in Chicago, and this acoustic rendition sure has a lot of Mississippi in it, I think.  What a young voice, too--so bright and clear.  Here is Johnny's version of "Pony Blues":

https://youtu.be/6MjEjwPEe-Q

INTRO SOLO

Hitch up my pony, saddle up my black mare
Hitch up my pony, saddle up my black mare
I'm gonna find my rider, baby, in the world somewhere

Some of you women, oughta be 'shamed of yourself
Some of you women, oughta be 'shamed of yourself
Cook cornbread for your husband, biscuits for your man

Hitch up my pony, round up my black mare
Hitch up my pony, saddle up my black mare
I'm gon' find my rider, baby, in the world somewhere

Got a little hole, front teeth crowned with gold
Got a black mama with her front teeth crowned with gold
And got a horse in Texas, runs my horse on the road

SOLO

The questions on Johnny Young's "Pony Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Johnny Young use to play the song?
   * Where did Johnny fret what he played over his opening I chord, from :01--:07?  (Don't decide too quickly.)
   * Where did Johnny fret the fill he played immediately following the last vocal phrase of the first verse, around :51?
   * What is it about Johnny's rendition that might make the characterization of it as "country" be apt?

Please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, January 19.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy Johnny Young's "Pony Blues".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 20, 2018, 01:38:28 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the puzzlers on Johnny Young's "Pony Blues"?  Come one, come all--answer one question or all of them!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: El Grego on January 20, 2018, 05:52:37 PM
hi, I just joined this group a few minutes ago and just discovered this part of the website last week (I have looked up many lyrics on the weeniepedia). So, I'm being brave giving this a try.I venture that the Johnny young Pony blues is in E standard tuning and the opening is bar the 2nd 3rd and 4th string at the 9th fret, ring finger on the 5th string 11th fret. Hammering the pinkie on the 4th string 12th fret.
It seems to me the fill is just off of the open E cord. Is there anything other that being accoustic that makes it country blues? I don't know.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Rivers on January 20, 2018, 07:57:34 PM
Is there anything other that being accoustic that makes it country blues? I don't know.

Welcome, El Grego. I've often thought that about Patton's version, i.e. there are many 'electric guitar' moves within the arrangement which was confusing to me until long after I first plugged in.The electric guitar had not been invented when Patton recorded it. Patton had invented Pony Blues years before.

Maybe electric blues owes more to country blues than is usually accepted. In that respect I'd have to say Johnny Young's version is more country blues than Patton's, which was very far ahead of its time, imo

Sorry to veer slightly off topic, back to Johnny Young's version, which I would like to study actually.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 21, 2018, 08:17:58 AM
I?m with El Grego on the key and tuning. Sounds like he plays the first inversion of E7, lifting his ring finger from the fourth fret of the first string to the open first string, then third fret second string, then open first string again followed by fourth fret first string. That?s probably too obvious to be correct though, and at the end of his phrase he seems to slide down from the seventh fret of the fifth string to the open fifth before hitting the A7 chord! So maybe El Grego has it right. For the fill I think he plays open first string, open 2nd string, third fret 2nd string, open 2nd string, 321 on the 3rd string, finishing on fret 2 of 4th string. What makes it sound country? Beyond it being acoustic, fingerpicked and a bit rough and ready, I?m not sure.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 21, 2018, 08:35:21 AM
I?m mostly with the Prof but I think he?s bending the 1st string at the 3rd fret.

It?s country because he hardly goes near the V chord.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 21, 2018, 08:57:39 AM
I'm getting E standard tuning for this too.  His opening I chord I'm hearing a g# and an e on the open 1st string so I was also thinking this was a D shape played around the 4th fret and I tried not to decide this too quickly, hence the delay in my post :-)

In agreement with Prof for the fill being played. Can't come up with anything that makes the characterisation of the tune 'country blues'.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: El Grego on January 21, 2018, 10:30:38 AM
Hey, one obvious thing that I overlooked that makes the song fit into "country blues" is the imagery of the lyrics, about pony's and mares and cooking cornbread and bisquits-
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 23, 2018, 01:28:21 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the puzzlers on Johnny Young's "Pony Blues"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on January 23, 2018, 03:18:28 PM
Greetings one and all, long time no see etc!

I ended up with a D shape capo'd up 2 frets and then dropped the low E to D to get the bass run
probably wrong since i can't find the Q2 fill but it is fun to play with

I ended up using D shapes on the 2nd 3rd and 4th strings for the IV and the implied V chords
and country because he changes when he wants to change, as Lightning said.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on January 24, 2018, 01:44:40 PM
I would say the thing that makes this more country blues is that you can still readily tell what key it is played in. What I mean is the influence of jazz chords. Robert Lockwood told me (at his last SF Blues Festival) that his biggest contribution was to bring jazz to the blues (what I asked him to avoid mention of RJ). Latter, while participating in an OLLIE class, in which I played examples of the roots of West Coast Blues (i.e. Delta and Texas styles), the current president of the Bay Area Blues Assoc (whose name escapes me) then demonstrated West Coast Blues and spoke about the strong influence of jazz chords on the guitar, playing a lot of closed chords up the neck. This is what I really like about playing old country blues, playing mostly bottom of the neck chords, using the licks that the key presents to you, gives each key a different quality and character. Later blues all sounds like it's in the key of jazz and loses that quality, to me.

Wax
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 25, 2018, 11:07:01 AM
Hi all,
I think the Johnny Young puzzlers on his version of "Pony Blues" have probably generated all the responses they are likely to get, so I'll post the answers. 

For Johnny Young's "Pony Blues":
   * The playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning
   * Johnny Young played over his opening I chord in his intro, from :00--:07 as follows:  He used an E7 position based on an A7 position moved up the neck, to 9-7-9 on the fourth, third and second strings, while all the while playing the open first string along with these fretted strings.  Use of this partially open position gives his sound an interesting timbre, and one of the neat things about the little three-fingered position he is utilizing on the fourth through second strings is that he is able to inflect the position, sliding in from below during the phrase, and then sliding it down at the end of the phrase, as Prof Scratchy noted, sounding the downward slide on the fourth and third strings.  Johnny Young does not use this position under his verses, but re-uses it for his solo, from 2:23--2:29.  I hope folks will try this position out--it is not terribly hard to finger and it sounds like a million bucks!  You'll be able to hear how Johnny Young slid it into place and inflected it.  I should mention, too, that Jesse Thomas, in his later recordings, was very fond of such partially open voicings and used them a lot in his playing, often leaving the first string open while he fretted the third and second strings way up the neck.
   *  Johnny Young fretted the fill that follows the last line of his first verse, at :51, as follows:  on 1 +, he struck the open sixth string twice with his thumb.  On 2 +, he brushed the open first string twice.  On 3 +, he went from a bent third fret of the second string to the open second string, and on beat 4, he played a triplet, going from the second fret of the third string to the open third string, resolving to the second fret of the fourth string.
   * As for what might be considered to make one characterize Johnny Young's rendition as "country", a lot of good points were made in the answers from participants.  The "rough and ready" quality the Prof cited, the bare acknowledgement of a V chord that Phil cited, the country imagery that El Grego mentioned, the "changing when he wanted to change" that Gumbo noted and Wax's observation of Johnny Young's whole approach, taking what the position gave him and basing what he played off that rather than using moveable closed positions, are all qualities that can rightly, I think, be construed as "country", a term which I realized after my initial posting is really very non-specific and open to interpretation.
I think what I heard as being "country" about Johnny Young's rendition was closest to what Gumbo mentioned.  To me, what was most "country" about Johnny Young's rendition was the way that he chose not to adhere to a consistent form, in terms of bar lengths, and instead devoted varying lengths to his instrumental responses to his vocal phrases, as he saw fit, over the course of his rendition, sometimes really "thriving on a riff" and perseverating on an instrumental response that he was particularly enjoying.  Just to illustrate that quality, I'll map out his passes through the form below.

INTRO SOLO
|    I7    |    I7    |    I7    |    I7    |
|   IV7   |   IV7   |    I7    |  I7 (6 beats) |
|   V7    |    I7    |    I7    |    I7    |

VERSE ONE
  Vocal----------------- Instrumental-------------------------
|   I (6 beats) |    I    |    I    |    I    |    I    |   I (6 beats) |
  Vocal-----------  Instrumental--------
|   IV7   |   IV7   |  I    |   I (6 beats) |
  Vocal------------  Instrumental---------
|    V7    |    I     |    I    |    I    |    I    |

VERSE TWO
  Vocal--------   Instrumental----
|    I    |    I    |    I7    |    I7    |
  Vocal-----------  Instrumental---------
|   IV7   |   IV7   |    I    |   I (6 beats)  |
  Vocal----------  Instrumental------------------------
|    V7   |    I    |   I    |    I    |    I    |    I    |    I    |

VERSE THREE
  Vocal  Instrumental-  Vocal  Instrumental-----------
|    I    |    I    |    I    |    I    |    I    |    I (6 beats)  |
  Vocal-----------   Instrumental------------
|   IV7   |   IV7   |   I7    |   I7 (6 beats)   |
  Vocal---------  Instrumental-------------------------
|   V7   |    I    |    I    |    I    |    I    |    I    |    I    |

VERSE FOUR
  Vocal--------   Instrumental--------
|    I    |    I    |   I    |    I    |    I    |
  Vocal-----------  Instrumental--------
|   IV7   |   IV7   |   I    |    I    |    I    |
  Vocal----------  Instrumental--
|    V7    |   I     |    I    |    I    |

SOLO
|    I7    |    I7    |    I7    |    I7    |
|   IV7   |   IV7   |    I      |    I     |    I    |    I    |
|    V7    |    I     |   I (6 beats) |   I      |   I    |

 A couple of points about Johnny Young's phrasing:
   *  He quite often, though not always, is long by two beats in the instrumental response bar that precedes a vocal entrance, thus allowing himself to complete the lick while still providing the two extra beats to accommodate the pick-ups to the next vocal phrase.  The playing of Furry Lewis, Robert Wilkins, Ed Bell, and a host of other country blues players abounds in this way of transitioning from instrumental fills to vocal phrases.
   * Like John Lee Hooker, Johnny Young sometimes has pauses or "dwells", in the midst of a vocal phrase.  He does that at the end of the first bar of the first verse, and in verse three he inserts two instrumental bars in the middle of the first vocal phrase.
   * There is a quote in the Quote Generator from the song-writer Doc Pomus to the effect that he and Mickey Baker, and other musicians in their circle could not respect Lightnin' Hopkins and John Lee Hooker because they broke time.  I suppose if you imagine that maintaining a consistent musical form of twelve bars, each of four beats, represents the pinnacle of human musical achievement, such an attitude might be understandable.  On the other hand, I would contend that such an attitude shows a misunderstanding of what Lightnin', John Lee Hooker, or Johnny Young, in this instance, were doing in their music.  By treating the call-and-response movement between voice and guitar as a simple guideline, subject to varying in length both the call and the response as the performer felt fit to do, in the moment, these players utilized an approach which always introduced an element of improvisation, keeping the performance in the present at all times, and avoiding the sort of "asleep at the wheel" playing that can result from simply recognizing and observing the conventions of blues phrasing.  And an important point:  phrase and form lengths may have varied over the course of the rendition but pulse did not--the heartbeat of the music remained the same throughout the song.

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzler, and I hope you all enjoyed Johnny Young's "Pony Blues" as much as I have, which is quite a lot!  If you have any thoughts about the issues discussed above, I hope you'll respond, and I will look for another puzzler to post soon.

All best,
Johnm       
   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 25, 2018, 01:44:43 PM
That's a wonderful way to play the E7. Aren't the simpler things often the most effective. Thanks for the detailed response John, as ever, this is such a great learning place.
Much appreciated,
Old Man Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 26, 2018, 08:17:43 AM
Thanks for the good words, Old Man Ned.  I agree, that E7 voicing is a definite winner!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harriet on January 27, 2018, 06:07:45 AM
I really like and found useful the well put comments on vocal phrasing in John Millers answer, so thought I'd say thanks -
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 27, 2018, 12:19:20 PM
Thanks for the good words, Harriet.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 06, 2018, 04:14:51 PM
Hi all,
It seems like a new set of puzzlers is overdue, and I have some for those of you who are interested.  The song is from Mississippi musician Charles Caldwell, who was featured near the beginning of this thread, and it is his song "I Know I Done You Wrong".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/TyNi7f_4T8A

INTRO

I'm sorry, girl, I done you wrong, best of friends, sometime, have to part
Said, I know, I know I done you wrong, says, I know, I know I done you wrong

Give me water when I'm thirsty, whiskey when I'm dry, I need a good girl to love, girl, I need her before I die
Says, I know, I know I done you wrong, says, I know I know I done you wrong

I'm sorry, girl, I done you wrong, best of friends, sometime, they have to part (Spoken: All right)
Says, I know, I know I done you wrong

The questions on "I Know I Done You Wrong" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Charles Caldwell use to play the song?
   * Where is he playing what he is playing in the bass and in the treble as he opens the song?
   * Where does he fret the line he plays twice under his singing of the refrain, from :52--1:00?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, February 9.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy Charles Caldwell's "I Know I Done You Wrong".

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 10, 2018, 09:02:17 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Charles Caldwell puzzlers?  Come one, come all--answer every question or just one!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on February 10, 2018, 12:33:02 PM
seems to sound in Fm
i'm guessing capo'd up one in standard so playing around the 'Em' chord shape
BUT there's a curios looseness to the string sound that worries me :)
the opening lick is
6th open
4th string at the 5th fret and 3rd string open
5th string at 7
2nd at 5
1st at 4
2nd at 5

the lick under from 52s is
4th string open then hammer on at 2
3rd string open 2 slide to 4 open 2 pull off
4th string 2 pull off 2
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Thomas8 on February 10, 2018, 02:02:46 PM
Dropped d
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 11, 2018, 04:02:13 AM
The questions on "I Know I Done You Wrong" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Charles Caldwell use to play the song? - Drop D
   * Where is he playing what he is playing in the bass and in the treble as he opens the song? -Strikes 6th string then alternates between 4th and 6th strings. Against this he bends a D shape at the fifth fret, ending first time round on the bent 6th fret of the second string, and the second time round on the fifth fret of the first string. When he resumes after the percussive break, it?s what he does next that gives the minor feel that Gumbo identifies. He seems to go on after the bent D shape at the fifth fret to fret the first fret of the first and second strings, then : 2str 1>3; 1str 1; 2str 3
   * Where does he fret the line he plays twice under his singing of the refrain, from :52--1:00? - not sure, but  it seems to involve the notes D F G  A G F DD
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on February 11, 2018, 06:11:46 AM
Dropped d

And Prof Scratchy concurs!
I think I remember why I stopped doing these for a while. I'm probably tone deaf!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Thomas8 on February 11, 2018, 08:50:21 AM
To be fair to you, we did discuss this one over a cup of tea the day before  ;)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 11, 2018, 08:51:04 AM
Don?t count on me, Gumbo! I?m wrong more than I?m right on these! Keep participating at all costs, otherwise it?s lonely for the rest of us!


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on February 11, 2018, 10:11:35 AM
thanks folks, it's all good and the point is I think you're right. there's this niggling feeling that i couldn't make the opening riff work so i put it somewhere else rather than go down the "oh oh! retune!" road. I seem to have a lot invested in 'only in standard'! :)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 11, 2018, 01:04:52 PM
Bit late coming to this as my ears have been blocked up with a heavy cold.  I'm hearing Dropped D tuning and the open 4th and 6 strings in the bass being played off against a D shape at the 5th fret, bending the 6th fret 2nd string at the start of the tune.

Not attempting the last question as my heads still mince and I need to go to the medicine cabinet to find the bottle labelled single malt.

All the best, Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 12, 2018, 05:29:20 AM
Thought vasteerpol at first but I too have arrived at drop D.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on February 12, 2018, 08:39:57 PM
The questions on "I Know I Done You Wrong" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Charles Caldwell use to play the song? - Drop D
   * Where is he playing what he is playing in the bass and in the treble as he opens the song? -Strikes 6th string then alternates between 4th and 6th strings. Against this he bends a D shape at the fifth fret, ending first time round on the bent 6th fret of the second string, and the second time round on the fifth fret of the first string. When he resumes after the percussive break, it?s what he does next that gives the minor feel that Gumbo identifies. He seems to go on after the bent D shape at the fifth fret to fret the first fret of the first and second strings, then : 2str 1>3; 1str 1; 2str 3
   * Where does he fret the line he plays twice under his singing of the refrain, from :52--1:00? - not sure, but  it seems to involve the notes D F G  A G F DD

Actually, Scratchy, the minor sound is already there with the D form slid up three frets. If you remember Johnm's thread about just such a device, when you move the Major triad up 3 frets you get the m7 chord, with the root in the bass, and the notes covered on the 2nd and 3rd strings are identical to the  notes at the 1st fret of the 1st and 2nd strings, only you have a little room to bend them back toward the Major. Cool.

Wax
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 13, 2018, 01:14:39 AM
Of course you?re right Wax. Still learning! And yes, very cool indeed.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 13, 2018, 02:56:14 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Charles Caldwell puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 14, 2018, 09:26:48 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who wanted to respond to the Charles Caldwell puzzlers has done so, so I will post the answers.  Here they are:

For Charles Caldwell's "I Know I Done You Wrong":
   * His playing position was D position in dropped D tuning
   * As he opens the song, he is alternating between his open fifth and fourth strings in the bass (he lightly brushes a little bit of the open sixth string a couple of times), and in the treble is going back and forth between the sixth fret of the second string and the fifth fret of the first string.  He may be doing a full D shape at the fifth fret in the treble, but he is not sounding the third string, in any event.
   * He fretted the line he plays twice under his singing of the refrain, from :52--1:00, as follows:  He goes quickly from the third fret of the fifth string to the open fourth string, under the lyric, "Says I".  Under the lyric, "know, I know", he goes from the third fret of the fourth string to the second fret of the third string and then to the first fret of the second string.  Under the word "I've", he does a quick pull-off from the second fret of the third string to the open third string.  Under the lyric, "done you wrong", he goes from the third fret of the fourth string, then moving quickly from the third fret of the fifth string to the open fourth string, hitting that note twice.  He then repeats the whole line.

I really like Charles Caldwell's spare sound.  Interestingly, he never hits a D major chord at the base of the neck.  After his open phrase, he goes to a IV7 chord, fingered 0-0-3-1 on the top four strings, going from fourth to first string.  In that chord, he goes back and fourth on the first two strings while brushing the third and fourth strings with his thumb.  He avoids the V chord altogether, like a lot of Mississippi blues players of his generation.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope people enjoyed the song.  I should say that it doesn't help in determining playing position/tuning to set much store on the key in which a rendition sounds.  I just think of that as the key in which the song is sung.  Instead, listen to the internal relationships of the notes being played, and use them to inform your choice of playing position/tuning, which with the possible use of a capo or tuning high or low of standard pitch, really operates independent of the key at which the rendition sounds.  I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 19, 2018, 11:41:51 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for folks who are interested.  It is "Loping Blues", by Lincoln Jackson, about whom I know absolutely nothing--where he was from, when the track was recorded--not a thing.  Here is Lincoln Jackson's "Loping Blues":

https://youtu.be/IkEUOtuuzvE

SOLOING

Lord, you ain't been pushin' on, take no effect on me
Lord, you ain't been pushin' on, take no effect on me
Lord, there's a Elgin movement on, ain't nary guarantee

Lord, I'm goin' away, sweet mama, wear you off my mind
Lord, I'm goin' away, sweet mama, wear you off my mind
Lord, I'm goin' away, sweet mama, now, wear you off my mind

I have only one question on "Loping Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did Lincoln Jackson use to play "Loping Blues"?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses until  8:00 AM your time on Thursday, February 24.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy "Loping Blues".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 23, 2018, 08:55:49 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Lincoln Jackson puzzler, "Loping Blues"?  Come one, come all--there's not but the one question.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 23, 2018, 08:58:27 AM
It's a difficult one. I've been thinking cross note or EAEGBE. I'll say the latter, but really not sure....

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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 23, 2018, 11:29:21 AM
Likewise struggling. I?ve a little more time tomorrow to spend on it.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 23, 2018, 01:13:58 PM
I'd got this to either E standard or Cross note last night but couldn't decide.  I need to do some more listening.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 25, 2018, 08:34:45 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Lincoln Jackson "Loping Blues" puzzler?
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on February 25, 2018, 12:57:28 PM
I'm in E standard (although capo'd at one) playing D and D7 shapes in various places, but it feels like I'm I'm missing something. Reminds me a bit of JB Lenoir, and am resisting the urge to look at what he played in!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 27, 2018, 05:14:57 AM
I?ve tried it with guitar and still can?t tell, I?m with the Old Man E standard or cross-note.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Rivers on February 27, 2018, 10:54:14 AM
Closest I got was in standard tuning with the bottom E string tuned up to F, with the song played out of closed F position with the bass string left open on the root to anchor the up the neck triads and double stop bends.

I likewise think I'm missing something, not least because that seems pretty unlikely! Has a Akers-Callicott Cottonfield Blues feel to my ears.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 27, 2018, 11:14:35 AM
I heard Bukka White and/or Lane Hardin in the playing! It?s a tough one for sure!


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 28, 2018, 11:16:44 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the Lincoln Jackson "Loping Blues" puzzler has done so by now, so I'll post the answer.  This puzzler was difficult, as a number of you remarked and there was only the one question, Lincoln Jackson's playing position/tuning, so I will attempt to answer that question in some detail, since it involves a sort of decision tree that can be used over and over again when trying to determine whether a particular piece was played out of E position, standard tuning, Vestapol, cross-note, or EAEGBE tuning.

Lincoln Jackson's playing position/tuning for "Loping Blues" was cross-note tuning, which a number of you had as a possibility and Prof Scratchy had as his first suggestion in the first response.  Here are the points at which the aural evidence contained in "Loping Blues" tells the listener that Lincoln Jackson played it out of cross-note tuning:
   * At :11, and many times after that, Lincoln Johnson brushes the second and third strings and does a hammer from a minor to a major third on the third string.  That first fret hammer to the major third from the open third string eliminates Vestapol tuning as a possibility, since in Vestapol, the open third string is the major third, making a hammer into the major third there an impossibility.  That leaves E position in standard tuning, cross-note and EAEGBE tunings still in the running as possibilities, since all of those positions/tunings have a minor third open third string when playing in the key of the open sixth string.
   * At :22--:23 and at :23--:24, Lincoln Jackson does two hammers on the fifth string from a V note of the key that he's playing in up to the VI note of that same key.  Since cross-note tuning puts its V note on the open fifth string,  and E position standard tuning and EAEGBE each put a IV note on the open fifth string, the repeated hammer from the V to the VI note on the fifth string establishes cross-note as Lincoln Jackson's playing position.
   * At :33, Lincoln Jackson slides a D shape on the first three strings to the fourth fret, playing a I chord there.  Gumbo noted Lincoln Jackson's use of a D shape on the first three strings and he was right on about that.  At :37--:38, Lincoln Jackson takes that shape up three frets, intact, utilizing the "three frets up" concept, giving himself an Em7 up there.  This whole section of the piece reminded me so much of Henry Townsend's first solo recordings in cross-note, in which he employed this sound and approach in the left hand quite a lot.  Lincoln Jackson's sound on "Loping Blues" is the closest I've ever heard someone come to Henry Townsend's sound on those early recordings, short of actually copying Henry's playing.

Here are ways to differentiate between the sound of Vestapol, E position in standard tuning, EAEGBE and cross-note tunings.
   * If the lowest-pitched note struck on the third string is the major third of the I chord, and the I note is the open sixth string, all four positions are possible.  If there is a hammer from the minor to the major third on the third string, Vestapol is eliminated as a possibility.
   * If a IV chord is played with the root on the open fifth string, cross-note is eliminated as a possibility, as is Vestapol, since in cross-note and Vestapol, the fifth string is tuned to the V note of the key.
   * If there is a hammer from the minor to the major third on the third string, and the lowest-pitched note on the fifth string is the V note of the key, the song is played in cross-note, particularly if the IV chord is either altogether avoided, as in Skip James' playing in cross-note, or the IV chord is voiced with its third, the VI note of the scale, in the bass, at the second fret of the fifth string, a la Booker White or Lincoln Jackson on this track.
   * It is impossible to differentiate between E position in standard tuning, EAEGBE and cross-note based on what happens on the first three strings, since they are tuned to the same voices, minor III, third string, V, second string and I, first string, in all three of those tunings/playing positions.  So you have to differentiate between those three on the basis of what happens on the fifth and fourth strings.
   * If you have the root of the key on the open sixth string, a hammer being done from the minor third to the major third at the first fret of the third string, and the IV chord voiced with its root on the open fifth string, the piece is being played in either E position, standard tuning, or EAEGBE tuning.  The sole basis for differentiating between those two positions is what happens and sounds on the fourth string, since it is the only string tuned differently in the two positions.  If you hear a V7 chord played with its major third voiced at the first fret of the fourth string, as in a B7 chord at the base of the neck in standard tuning, the song is played in E position, standard tuning.  This sound and defining characteristic is what makes it possible to say with absolute certainty that all of Charley Jordan's E-sounding pieces from his first session were, in fact, played out of E position in standard tuning rather than EAEGBE tuning.  He always voiced the V7 chord with the major third on the fourth string first fret.  EAEGBE tuning does not offer the option of voicing the third of the V7 chord on the fourth string, because the open fourth string is tuned one-half step higher than that note (E as compared to D#).  Thus, for people playing in EAEGBE tuning, a la Clifford Gibson's E-sounding pieces and Furry Lewis' pieces like "Jelly Roll", "Mistreating Mama" and "Creeper's Blues", the fourth string is avoided altogether in the playing of the V7 chord.  Guitar Shorty, who played everything in EAEGBE tuning, got around the problem by voicing the second fret of the fourth string in his V7 chord, thus voicing the fifth of the V chord there. 

Thanks to all who participated in the Lincoln Jackson puzzler, and I hope you enjoyed the song.  It's always interesting to hear something recorded live, and played and sung so well, that was obviously going unnoticed by many of the people who were there at the time.  Sometimes that's a musician's life.  I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.

All best,
Johnm 

 

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 28, 2018, 11:50:01 AM
Thanks, as always, for the detailed explanation, Johnm!


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 28, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
I'll second what Prof said. Thanks again, so much to learn from these posts.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 05, 2018, 11:33:19 AM
Hi all,
Thanks, Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned, for your posts.  When I post the explanations, I'm sort of flying blind, in that I never know if anybody really reads them, so it's nice to hear that you find them useful.  I think we're about ready for a new puzzler, so I've selected Scott Dunbar's "Jay Bird", from Stefan Wirz's channel.  Here is "Jay Bird":

https://youtu.be/ttSwU5TIfDE

The questions on "Jay Bird" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Scott Dunbar use to play the song?
   * On what strings did Scott Dunbar play the passage from :53--:58, and where did he fret the strings he was playing there?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses until 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, March 8.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on March 09, 2018, 12:26:35 PM
I'm hearing Scott Dunbar's "Jay Bird" out of Open D tuning.  Apart from the open first 3 strings I'm struggling to hear what's being played behind the vocal from :53--:58. I keep playing the top 3 strings against an alternating open 6th, 4th, 5th & 4th string and fretting the 2nd string at the 2nd fret but I think I'm trying to follow his voice. I'm sure he's fretting more than that.   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on March 10, 2018, 08:05:10 AM
Johnm, I'd like to add my thanks for the in depth replies, and am sorry I don't spend as much time with them as would do them justice.

I try to take on what you said in relation to the Charles Cauldwell puzzle a couple of weeks ago:

... it doesn't help in determining playing position/tuning to set much store on the key in which a rendition sounds.  I just think of that as the key in which the song is sung.  Instead, listen to the internal relationships of the notes being played, and use them to inform your choice of playing position/tuning, which with the possible use of a capo or tuning high or low of standard pitch, really operates independent of the key at which the rendition sounds.

This lands for me because you said the same specifically to me a couple of years ago in this topic and I do try to listen that way. In my own playing , however, I rarely venture out of standard, so that instinctively becomes my reference when I'm listening. My starting point. I might hear something but when I pick up my guitar to check, it is in standard, so it feels like any progress from there is impeded by a large number of possible variations. At this point the actual chord being played seems useful to me as a reference. 'How could I get this chord and do any of those ways work?' is my approach i guess. And then I can go on to 'what sounds wrong and what do I have to change?'

So for this week's puzzler my process goes thus:
Sounds like D and G and I can find the bass notes kind of but not in a way that feels free around familiar chords. And Scott Dunbars playing is pretty free and easy. In fact he's having a ball and just keeps this fun little bass riff coming round matching the vocal melody. That seems to fit nicely in C position with a capo on 2, but it's not right for the open strings, and the top three are pretty much open all the way through i think. He tunes down one string at the start so I experiment tuning down the top string four steps, which makes me think maybe the capo is not necessary but one thing at a time or I'll get lost!
Tuning down the 2nd string so I don't need to hold that first fret starts to sound right. On the open strings. I can pick out the bass run around on the 4th and fifth strings, and it shifts nicely from D to G and back through that run.
So what do I have? With my capo still on 2. It's not quite open D tuning but almost? F#BEF#AD and using the (4th string 2nd fret, and the 5th string 3rd fret from my original C chord shape) to get the D and F# on those strings and to use the open strings in the bass run.

Yes this is how complex it seems to me too!

the run itself at .53 - .58
I have the same problem distinguishing through his vocal but he plays it clearly at the start and a couple of times later in the story it appears through a haze of hilarity.
4th string fret 3 open fret 3
5th string open
repeat
4th fret 3 open fret 2
5th fret 3

I'm guessing now that i should continue on and tune to open D and see if i can find it again, but this sounds pretty good.
Not sure i hear the 6th string at all.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 11, 2018, 03:55:41 AM
Out on a limb here, but I?ll venture DADGBD for the tuning. I can?t make out what he plays under the refrain though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 12, 2018, 09:17:53 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Scott Dunbar "Jay Bird" puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 13, 2018, 03:28:33 AM
Sorry I?m struggling with this one.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 14, 2018, 12:37:48 PM
Hi all,
It looks like everyone who intended to respond to the Scott Dunbar puzzler, "Jay Bird", has done so, so I will post the answers.

For Scott Dunbar's "Jay Bird":
   * His playing position was Vestapol tuning, tuned at open D
   * In the passage from :53--:58, Scott Dunbar is essentially doing a thumb lead for four measures.  In the first two measures, he is fingering and E minor or G6 chord, 0-2-2-1-0-0.  In the first measure he alternates his bass from the fifth string on beat one to the third string on beat two, then from the fourth string on beat three to a brush of the third and second strings on beat four.  In the second measure, he does the same alternation with his thumb, with the only difference being that he opens up on the third string for beat four.  For the third and fourth measures, he resolves to D, hitting all open strings with his thumb, alternating from the open fourth string on beat one to the open third string on beat two, a brush of the open sixth and fifth strings on beat three and the open third string again on beat four.  In both of the D measures, he brushes the open first string with his index finger on the + of beat four.

As Gumbo noted in his response, I've remarked in the past that the pitch at which a rendition sounds is a non-issue in terms of identifying the playing position/tuning in which a song is played.  If the pitch at which a rendition sounds doesn't help determine the playing position/tuning in which a song is played, what should you be listening for that will give more pertinent information?  Basically, playing position/tuning identifications are based on knowing what notes are made available by the different playing positions and tunings, and selecting from the different playing positions and tunings on that basis.  In speaking of what notes are made available in the different playing positions and tunings, I'm not speaking of specific pitches--the ability of players to tune high or low of standard pitch or use a capo makes specific pitches meaningless in this regard.  Rather, I'm speaking of notes of the scale, I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and the various chromatic degrees that fall in-between the scale tones, and where they sit in a playing position or tuning, especially in the bass.

If we think of Vestapol tuning in D, the notes of the open strings, ascending from the sixth string to the first are DADF#AD, which expressed as scale degrees in a D chord end up being R5R35R.  Because the open sixth string is a Root and the open 5th string is a V note, you will virtually never hear a IV chord played in Vestapol with a low root in the bass, except a IV chord played by barring at the fifth fret.  Connie Williams and Doug Quattlebaum are among the rare players in Vestapol who chose to play that root position IV chord by barring at the fifth fret.  The great majority of players in Vestapol, chose instead to voice the IV chord with its third, B, the VI note of the scale in the bass, fretting it at the second fret of the fifth string.  They then complete the IV chord by fretting the first fret of the third string, raising the F# up to G, getting the root of the IV chord there.  They may then choose either to double that B note on the fifth string, second fret, one octave higher at the second fret of the second string, or decide to leave the second string open, giving a drony sound which sort of keeps the open D sound going over the IV chord.

Unlike the IV chord, the V7 chord can be voiced with a low root in Vestapol, using the open fifth string.  If we think of Vestapol in D, as in the case of "Jay Bird", the V7 chord coming up from the root on the open fifth string would require fretting the second fret of the fourth string, E, to get the fifth of the V7 chord and the first fret of the third string, G, to get the seventh of the V7 chord.  The third of the V7 chord, C#, is very inconveniently located at the fourth fret of the second string, and almost no traditional player ever fretted that note, choosing instead to use the open second string, which doubles the root on the open fifth string.  You end up with a drony V7 chord then, one in which there is no third of the chord voiced.

What really helps in identifying playing positions/tunings is being able to hear the different scale degrees in the bass (first) and knowing what the different positions and tunings make available for you there.  If you also factor in whether the bass rises in pitch or goes down in pitch as you go to the bass notes in a I-IV-V progression in the different playing positions and tunings, you're well on your way to being able to identify playing position and tuning for most songs.  For example, in E position, standard tuning, you will never hear a note struck lower in pitch than the low root of the I chord--moreover, both the IV chord and V chord are easily available in root position, going up in pitch from the low I note.  In C position, standard tuning, the root of the I chord at the third fret of the fifth string is higher in pitch than the root of the IV chord, first fret, sixth string and the root of the V chord, third fret, sixth string, that you are most likely to use.  You can build these bass recognition skills by analyzing pieces you already know how to play and are very conversant with--listen to the movement in the bass of several songs you play out of the same playing position and note the consistency with which you put particular notes in the bass for the I, IV and V (or other) chords.  Go through the different playing positions and tunings you use, and work out where you play the bass in the I, IV and V chords, to start out, and whether the movement from I to IV to V involves going up or down in pitch in the different positions. 

Just as each playing position and tuning makes different choices available in the bass for voicing chords, so does each playing position and tuning make different licks and riffs easily available in the treble.  And sometimes treble cliches, like walking down on the third and first strings from the fourth to the third to the second fret and resolving into an E chord can help you identify when someone is playing in E position, standard tuning.  But very often, you can make the identification of playing position/tuning solely on the basis of what happens in the bass.

One other suggestion:  To build your ear-training skills, try to get in the habit of hearing a melody and identifying its placement in the scale.  If you can clearly hear that orientation in the scale, you always know where you are.  So, for example, "Oh Susanna", written as scale degrees would be I-II-III-V-V-VI-V-III-I-II-III-III-II-I-II in it's first line, "Oh I come from Alabama with a banjo on my knee".  Hearing where melodies live in the scale is really where the rubber meets the road in terms of improvising, too.  If you know that, you know where to go to get the sound you're seeking.

I hope that this description of process clarifies a bit why making identifications of playing position/tuning is more a matter of knowing what scale degrees are made available in each position/tuning and where they can be found than it is a matter of identifying specific notes or pitches.  So in this regard, having good relative pitch identification is far more valuable than having perfect pitch.  Perfect pitch may tell you that Charley Jordan played "Hunkie Tunkie" in Bb, but good relative pitch will tell you that he executed the piece out of E position in standard tuning sounding at Bb.

Thanks to the people who participated in the puzzler and I hope folks enjoyed "Jay Bird".  I'll look for another puzzler to post in a bit.  If any of the stuff I posted above seems unclear or a bit too much like gibberish, feel free to call me on it.
All best,
Johnm 
   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on March 14, 2018, 03:16:00 PM
"a bit too much like gibberish....." !!
It's the opposite to gibberish! This stuff's pure gold for me.

Thanks for taking the time to post such a thorough answer to the Jaybird puzzler, John. 

I loved
"Hearing where melodies live in the scale is really where the rubber meets the road in terms of improvising, too"

Thanks again,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 15, 2018, 05:39:50 PM
Thanks very much for the good words, Old Man Ned.  I'm glad that made sense for you.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on March 16, 2018, 04:45:33 PM
Thanks Johnm, for the puzzle and the breakdown. I shall endeavour to read that through again at least once a week for the foreseeable future. It's heartening to see how close I got without much familiarity with alt tunings.. The three top strings are right and I think I was playing something close to the bass line an octave up?  I even wondered about retuning to Open D, but didn't for lack of time.
I shall persevere!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 17, 2018, 04:27:22 PM
Hi Gumbo,
I'm glad the explanation resonated.  I think the encouraging thing about the process, apart from the fact that it really works, is that it is a learned and learnable skill, not some sort of gift that you're either born with or can never have.  It amounts to cataloguing the aural properties of the different playing positions and tunings, based on how they are voiced and what is plausibly reachable in them.  Some positions and tunings are easier to identify than others, but they are all potentially identifiable on the basis of what people play in them and the sounds that result from that.  At this point this thread has close to 300 songs in it, so if you'd like practice in developing these skills of identification, you could just start at the beginning of the thread and work your way through the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on March 19, 2018, 10:56:26 AM
Thanks John, I'll do that. And I wish you all the best with the next 300 ;)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 20, 2018, 10:55:13 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is from Little Hat Jones, and it is his "You Don't Mean Me No Good", recorded by Morris Craig in Texas in 1964.  Here is "You Don't Mean Me No Good":

https://youtu.be/jBQnuot3lLI


The questions on "You Don't Mean Me No Good" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Little Hat Jones use to play the song?
   * Where is Little Hat Jones fretting what he plays over the first four bars of the form?
   * Where does Little Hat Jones fret the bass run he plays in the 7th and 11th bars of the form?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please do not post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, March 23.  I hope you enjoy "You Don't Mean Me No Good", and thanks for participating.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 24, 2018, 11:34:24 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the puzzler on Little Hat Jones' "You Don't Mean Me No Good"?  Come one, come all--answer just one question or all three!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on March 24, 2018, 11:47:03 AM
- E standard tuned low

- something like 0xx757 rocked down to 0xx656 and back

- second fret 5th string, fourth fret 5th string, second fret 4th string, then a bend at the fifth fret on the 4th string and back down through the last two notes
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on March 24, 2018, 01:05:20 PM
Dropped D?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 25, 2018, 05:20:46 AM
 * What playing position/tuning did Little Hat Jones use to play the song?
 -Drop D

   * Where is Little Hat Jones fretting what he plays over the first four bars of the form?
 -  0xx565//////; 0xx434///////; 0xx565///////; 0xx232///////

   * Where does Little Hat Jones fret the bass run he plays in the 7th and 11th bars of the form?
 - 5str 0 2; 4str 0 3b 0; 5str 2; 4str 0; 6str 0
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 25, 2018, 05:44:39 AM
Just got to this, I?m with the Professor- I thought the bass run was the giveaway .
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on March 26, 2018, 01:00:08 PM
A bit late coming to this as I've been aware, unusually, without a guitar.  I'm also hearing this in D, assuming dropped D tuning, but I'm having trouble hearing anything on the 6th string. The bass run I'm hearing as open, hammer on to 2nd then 3rd fret on the 5th string. Open 4th string, then a bend at the 3rd fret 4th string. Back to open 5th string,  hammer on to 2nd then 3rd fret, then open 4th string.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 28, 2018, 04:04:22 PM
Hi all,
It seems like everyone who intended to respond to the puzzler on Little Hat Jones' "You Don't Mean Me No Good" has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.

For Little Hat Jones' "You Don't Mean Me No Good":
   * His playing position was D in standard tuning.  A couple of factors help to identify the playing position as D in standard tuning as opposed to dropped-D tuning:
   1) He never hits the low D note which would be right there for the taking on the open sixth string if he were playing in dropped-D; and
   2) When he goes to the IV chord in the song, for the first time, at :09, he hits the low root of the IV chord in the bass, while going back and forth between the third fret of the second string and the first fret of the first string in a G7 chord.  Were he playing in dropped-D, he would have to fret that low root of the IV chord at the fifth fret of the sixth string, making what he's playing in the treble at the same time unreachable.  In D standard, the phrase is right under the hand.  (He could be playing in DGDGBE and getting the root of the IV chord on the open fifth string, but a host of other things he plays eliminate that tuning from the realm of possibility.)
   * In the first four bars of the form, Little Hat Jones goes from a D7 in the first bar, played on the first three strings, 5-3-5 going from third to first string, to a D dim7 in the second bar, fretted 4-3-4 on the first three strings, returning to the 5-3-5 D7 in the third bar, and in the fourth bar (after the opening solo) goes from the third fret of the fourth string to the fourth fret of the fourth string in the fourth bar, ending up with a D7 voiced 4-5-3-5 on the top four strings, from fourth string to first. 

This is a really unusual move.  It is somewhat akin to the Scrapper Blackwell-derived move that Robert Johnson used in virtually all of his songs played out of A position in standard tuning, in which he goes from an A7 at 9-8-9 on the top three strings to an A dim7 at 8-7-8 on the top three strings.  In Robert Johnson's case, he's hitting the root of both chords on the open fifth string and voicing the fifth, seventh and third of the two chords on the third, second and first strings, respectively.  In Little Hat Jones' move, he is voicing both chords with the root on the second string, moving the seventh down and back on the third string and the fifth down and back on the first string.  It isn't until the fourth bar of the form that Little Hat Jones adds the third of the chord, on the fourth string.  The move is pretty close to what Doc Watson did two frets higher, in E, on his arrangement of "Deep River Blues", though Doc voiced the third of both chords on the fourth string.

   * The run that Little Hat Jones played in the 7th and 11th bars was played as follow:  It starts on beat two of those bars with a triplet going from the open fifth string to the second fret of the fifth string and then to the open fourth string.  On 3+, he strikes the bent third fret of the fourth string twice.  On beat 4, he hits another triplet, going from the open fourth string down to the second fret of the fifth string and then returning to the open fourth string.  On the downbeat of the 8th and 12th bars, he concludes the run by hitting the open sixth string which is a low E note (relative to his tuning), thus pointing once again to D position in standard tuning rather than dropped-D tuning. 

Thanks to all who participated in this puzzler and I hope you enjoyed the song.  I believe all of Little Hat Jones' recordings from the 1960s have been put up on a youtube channel by Fede Cochero, so if you'd like to hear the rest of his recorded performances from the field recordings done in the '60s, you should look for them there.  It's apparent in listening to them that he could still sing and play really well at that point.  It's a shame he didn't get to record or perform more then, but it's also possible that he wasn't interested in pursuing that at that time of his life. 

I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 09, 2018, 11:25:49 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is Lemuel Turner's "Jake Bottle Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/LxeP3mJ3yS4

The questions on "Jake Bottle Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lemuel Turner use to play the song?
   * Do you think he played the song with the guitar in the conventional position or lap style?  What did you hear that affected your choice?

Please use only your ears and your your guitar to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, April 11.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the tune.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 13, 2018, 05:24:53 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Lemuel Turner "Jake Bottle Blues" puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Thomas8 on April 14, 2018, 01:23:52 AM
Spanish tuned to A
I think it's played lap style as it sounds like Oscar Woods, Black Ace.
Plus he plays a lot of chords sliding up and down the neck  8)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: bob long on April 14, 2018, 02:46:12 AM
The verdict of the collective EuroWeenie gathering panel is high bass A tuning and lap style. 

The ascending slide bass note is (according to Richard and Prof. Scratchy) is the give away for it being lap style.

Having a lovely time.  Wish you were all here.  About to do the quiz.

Love from the "Euroweenies".



Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harriet on April 14, 2018, 04:29:31 AM
I arrived at the same conclusion as Thomas8.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on April 16, 2018, 11:45:19 PM
Lap style, Spanish ar A
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Gumbo on April 18, 2018, 03:32:55 AM
Having accidentally read some replies to the puzzle, I couldn't get back to not thinking Spanish in A, and can't hear anything to persuade me otherwise.  ::)

Is that long slide technically awkward in normal playing position? To me it sounds like lap style because of a light flowing freedom of movement that just sounds different to normal playing position.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on April 18, 2018, 02:05:51 PM
I'm thinking lap style too.  To me, the overall sound is similar to a steel guitar, which again, to me, suggests lap style.  Also, as the bottle neck or whatever is sometimes covering multiple strings and occasionally reaches very high up the neck, I'm thinking to get the clean, clear sound I'm hearing, lap style would offer the player more control.

Love the tune.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 19, 2018, 02:15:50 PM
Hi all,
The Lemuel Turner puzzler has been up a while and I think all of the responses have been made, so I will post the answers.

For Lemuel Turner's "Jake Bottle Blues":
   * His tuning was Spanish tuning.  I don't believe he was in the so-called high bass version of Spanish, R-3-5-R-3-5, but rather in Spanish as it was most commonly played by Country Blues players, 5-R-5-R-3-5.  There are a number of reasons for this.  While it is true that he never once hits the low 5 note on the open sixth string which is there in conventional Spanish tuning, throughout the piece, when he hits brush strokes in the bass, the next voice above his low root that sounds is the fifth of the chord.  In high-bass Spanish, the next voice above the low root would be the third, and he never once sounds that note.  Moreover, when he is barring with his slide at the twelfth fret across to the fourth string, and he brushes the low root in the bass, the next pitches to sound above that are the 5 note at the twelfth fret of the fourth string and the root at the twelfth fret of the third string.
   * I agree with all who responded that Lemuel Turner was playing lap-style for the song.  He is frequently barring the fourth through the first string over the course of the song, a move that is not impossible with the guitar in the conventional playing position, but that is far more awkward in that position than it is in lap-style, especially to bar several strings perpendicular to the length of the strings and have the bar play in tune.  Melodically, much of the piece lives from the twelfth to the seventeenth fret of the first string, an area really difficult to access with the guitar in the conventional playing position, but no particular problem at all when playing lap-style.

Thanks to all who responded, and I hope people enjoyed the tune.  I know Lightnin' Wells knows something about Lemuel Turner if he is in the neighborhood--I know nothing about Lemuel Turner.  I will look for another puzzler to post soon.
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lignite on April 19, 2018, 04:21:08 PM
Hey John,
I don't know much about Lemuel Turner either. I own both of his releases on 78 rpm.The other title is Way Down Yonder Blues and is essentially the same melody as Jake Bottle. The B sides of both releases are rather generic pieces; Tramp Waltz and Beautiful Eyes Of Virginia (also a waltz)and seem to receive little interest. I assume Lemuel Turner is a white musician but it sure would be interesting for someone to find some solid information about him.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on April 20, 2018, 05:53:56 AM
Lemuel Turner was kind of a mystery but some info has been dug up recently. He recorded for Victor in Memphis in February of 1928. In the book "Kika Kila: How the Hawaiian Steel Guitar Changed the Sound of Modern Music" the author found a newspaper clipping from Hattiesburg, MS that references "Turner & McCoy." It says "[they] have a style all their own for playing guitars, that of using a 'jake' bottle to produce tones and sounds from their instruments that never before have been heard on local stages."

The book says the same paper had a short biography of Turner in a follow up article. It said he was born in McComb City, MS and that said he returned from being gassed in WWI and spent six years in a military hospital in San Francisco where he learned Hawaiian guitar technique. By all accounts it seems he was a white musician.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on April 20, 2018, 11:14:58 AM
You should contact John Troutman and ask him if he has scans of the articles mentioning Lemuel Turner. It's possible that he organized and archived the info he found while he was researching his book in a way that's easily accessible and he might be able to dig it out and send it to you. I've met John and he is a solid scholar, a musician and and impressed me as a good guy, so it's worth a try. Here's the text of Note 16 on page 298-299 of Kika Kila:

[Begin quote] 16. I did find one newspaper report from Hattiesburg, Mississippi, that describes an alternative technique to the ?Hawaiian style? of playing with a steel bar, but the article was published in 1927, well after Hawaiian guitarists had become a familiar sight in the South, and the technique is identified as originating from the labor of an individual who was convalescing in a veteran?s hospital in San Francisco. The Hattiesburg American promoted what it claimed is the first local public performance by a player using a bottle rather than a piece of steel as a slide: ?What is probably the most novel presentation act ever to be presented on local stages is ʻTurner & McCoy?. . . . [It has] proved a knockout in all the largest theatres in the country where it has played. ?Turner and McCoy? . . . have a style all their own for playing guitars, that of using a ?jake? bottle to produce tones and sounds from their instruments that never before have been heard on local stages. . . . McCoy is known in theatrical circles as the Hawaiian guitar specialist. He plays a large steel guitar.? ?Turner-McCoy Premier Show,? Hattiesburg American, April 14, 1927, 9. Turner is Lemuel Turner, identified as a white guitarist who recorded four ?steel-guitar solos? for Victor Records in Memphis in February 1928, including ?Jake Bottle Blues.? Russell, Country Music Records, 917. ?Jake? refers to a Jamaican Ginger Extract medicine with a high alcohol content; it was frequently consumed by poor and working-class southerners as an intoxicant. The next day?s edition of the Hattiesburg American provided a biographical sketch of Turner. It reported that he was born in McComb City, Mississippi, and during World War I enlisted in the U.S. Army?s Eighty-First Infantry Division. He recounted to the newspaper that after he was gassed in France, he returned to the United States and spent six years in a government hospital in San Francisco. It was there that he began to play guitar and developed this method of playing guitar with a bottle. ?King Guitar Player Here,? Hattiesburg American, April 15, 1927, 2. I have not located any further references to the Turner and McCoy group. Turner?s recordings are among the very earliest to feature the guitar presumably played with a bottle rather than a knife or metal bar. It is likely that guitarists Sylvester Weaver or Walter Beasley came to use the bottleneck around this time, too, as together they cut ?Bottleneck Blues? in November 1927. What is not clear is whether they were holding the bottlenecks in the same fashion as Hawaiian guitarists held their steel bars, or if they actually placed their finger inside the bottlenecks and held the instrument in the standard fashion. Thanks to Elijah Wald for pointing out to me that we must not assume that these recordings featured the latter technique over the Hawaiian technique. The significance of this coverage by a Hattiesburg newspaper of Lemuel Turner in 1927 is that Turner?s use of a bottle seems so new and novel, even in the context of the steel guitar played by McCoy. It suggests, at the very least, that the concept of the ?bottleneck slide? was only beginning to take root in Mississippi at this time. Of course, Turner could have lied about the origins, but if a competent and practiced bottleneck slide tradition was in place when Hawaiian guitarists arrived in the South twenty or more years earlier, it seems more likely than not that (a) we would find press coverage of the more talented practitioners, regardless of their skin color, who would presumably seek to profit from their novel ability and (b) the southern press would compare the steel method when it was introduced to a concurrent method of southern origin, rather than declare the degree to which the Hawaiian guitar sound was unique and new. [End Quote]

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 20, 2018, 12:06:01 PM
Thanks Lightnin', Pete and Stuart for the additional information on Lemuel Turner.  It occurs to me, Stuart, that the ostensible novelty of somebody playing slide with a bottle/bottleneck depends a great deal on the identity of the person writing the review for the Hattiesburg paper.  If this was a person who didn't frequent places where one might likely hear someone playing with a bottle or bottleneck for a slide, he/she might accept at face value a claim from Turner and McCoy that they were innovators in employing this technique, which in fact might already have been relatively common, if not in Hattiesburg, than in other locales.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on April 20, 2018, 03:57:44 PM
I agree, John. We really don't know a whole lot about the writer of the articles and what his previous experiences were with music played with a slide. Like you say, it's probably best to take the articles at face value for the additional information they provide about Lemuel Turner, but at the same time with a grain of salt given that we really don't have any way of corroborating the info, checking the reporter's background, etc. Proceed with both eyes open, and of course it's "new and novel"--but only if you haven't heard it before. My guess is that the article was written (in part?)  as a "promotion" for a local show, thus some liberties may have been taken to drum up interest and increase attendance.

As I said, John Troutman impressed me as a solid scholar and he did quite a bit of work going through the newspapers in Mississippi and elsewhere when he was researching his book. It would be interesting to know what he found that didn't make it into the book because it was too far afield of the book's main topic. As I mentioned, it might be worth an e-mail.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harriet on April 20, 2018, 05:50:16 PM
Just in response to Stuart's post - here's a jpg from a Black Ace video attached, you may have seen this video before, playing in a style with a liquor or medicine bottle - similar to one variety of the Jake bottle - I think this may be how it was held by Turner.  For the video search: YW7zxl3sdJc
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 27, 2018, 09:22:14 AM
Hi all,
It has taken me a while to find another puzzler, but I have one now for those of you who are interested.  It is Tom Dickson's "Worry Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/M5EOGExTnd0 

The questions on "Worry Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Tom Dickson use to play the song?
   * In his first two verse accompaniments, Tom Dickson rocks between two bass notes, falling on beats one and three in the first two measures of the form.  Where are the bass notes located that he rocks between in verse one, and where are the bass notes located that he rocks between in verse two?
   * Where is the bass line located that Tom Dickson plays under the IV chord in his verse accompaniments?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers until 8:00 AM your time on Monday, April 30.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy Tom Dickson's "Worry Blues".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 01, 2018, 10:38:55 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the puzzler on Tom Dickson's "Worry Blues"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lastfirstface on May 01, 2018, 12:54:57 PM
I whiffed pretty bad in my last couple answers, but here goes:
-E position capoed up
-In verse one he's holding the E chord and rocking between fretting the sixth string at the 4th fret and the sixth string at the 2nd fret. In verse two he fingers the same frets, but on the fifth string instead
-Under the IV chord he plays the open fifth string bass note followed by a plucked note at the 3rd fret followed by a hammer-on to the 4th fret

edited for typos
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 02, 2018, 01:24:22 PM
I'm hearing this in E standard too, capo at around the 4th fret.  I'm struggling with the bass notes though and keep changing my mind. 

My latest thoughts are for verse one, it's rocking between the 4th fret and 2nd fret of the 5th string and verse 2 it's open 4th and 2nd fret of the 5th string, but I'm really struggling to hear this and pin it down. I need to listen more  for what's going on under the IV chord.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 03, 2018, 08:55:28 AM
 * What playing position/tuning did Tom Dickson use to play the song? - E capoed to fourth or fifth fret
   * In his first two verse accompaniments, Tom Dickson rocks between two bass notes, falling on beats one and three in the first two measures of the form.  Where are the bass notes located that he rocks between in verse one, and where are the bass notes located that he rocks between in verse two? - 5str 2fr to 6str 4fr in verse 1 and 5str 4fr to 5str 2fr in verse two
   * Where is the bass line located that Tom Dickson plays under the IV chord in his verse accompaniments? - 6str 0fr 5str0 5str 3fr 5str 4fr
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 07, 2018, 02:52:04 PM
Hi all,
I'm guessing that everyone who intended to respond to the Tom Dickson "Worry Blues" puzzler has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.

For Tom Dickson's "Worry Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning
   * In the verse one accompaniment, in the first two bars, Tom Dickson rocks between the fourth fret of the sixth string on beat one and the second fret of the sixth string on beat three.  In the verse two accompaniment and all of the subsequent verses, in the same place in the form he rocks between the fourth fret of the fifth string on beat one and the second fret of the fifth string on beat three.
   *  In his verse accompaniments, under the IV chord, in both measures he hits the open fifth string on beat one, hits either the second or third fret of the fifth string on the + of beat two, and picks the fourth fret of the fifth string on beat three. 

Tom Dickson recorded only four titles, all with excellent guitar playing, two in E position, standard tuning and one each in D position, standard tuning and C position, standard tuning.  He seems always to be classified as Memphis musician, but if I recall correctly, none of the Memphis musicians who survived into the '60s and '70s could recall having met him or heard him play.  It seems a long shot that we will get any hard biographical information on him at this late date, but so much information has been turned up in recent years that you never know.

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzler and I hope people enjoyed the song.  I'll look for another one to post.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Thomas8 on May 14, 2018, 10:14:37 AM
Nice overview of the four Dickson sides including lyrics.

http://www.earlyblues.com/WorryBlues.htm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 14, 2018, 10:49:28 AM
Hi Thomas,
Yes, and all four of the Tom Dickson titles have been discussed and transcribed in the Tom Dickson Lyrics thread here. 
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 15, 2018, 09:14:04 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is Ranie Burnette's "Lonesome Moon Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/ttCKukP3_YM

INTRO

Don't that moon look pretty, baby, shinin' down through the tree?
Don't that moon look pretty, baby, shinin' down through the tree?
I can see my baby, you know, she can't see me
(Guitar)
I can see my little woman, but, you know, she can't see me
(Guitar)
I see my baby, Lord, you know, she can't see me

Hey, babe, I don't know what to do
I say, hey, baby, I don't know what to do
Lord, she's gone, babe, I don't know what to do

Hey, baby, it's all on account of you
Whoa now, baby, baby, you know it's on account of you
You know, baby, baby, it's all on account of you

The questions on "Lonesome Moon Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Ranie Burnette use to play the song?
   * Where did Ranie Burnette fret the signature lick he plays from :07--:10?
   * True or false:  Ranie Burnette never frets a string lower in pitch than the third string in the course of his rendition.

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Thursday morning, May 17.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy "Lonesome Moon Blues".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 18, 2018, 12:08:07 PM
For  "Lonesome Moon Blues" I'm hearing the playing position/tuning as A standard and Ranie Burnette's signature lick  from :07--:10 as, something like:
---------0-3-5-3---------------
3slide5----------5-3-3slide1--
--------------------------------2
all played on the first 3 strings.

True, I don't believe Ranie Burnette ever frets a string lower in pitch than the third string in the course of his rendition. The lowest I'm hearing him go is the A at the 2nd fret of the 3rd string.

Doesn't Ranie Burnette's playing and vocals have a wonderfully relaxed feel?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on May 18, 2018, 04:01:43 PM
It sounds to me like he's in Spanish, not A, mostly because of the 0-0-0-0-3-5 chord he plays (although he's not playing all the strings). In A that would be 0-0-2-2-5-5 and it sounds open, not closed, to me. Also he does a pull-off from the first fret of the second string to the open second that would be possible but a little awkward in A. Finally, his bend on the third string sounds to me like it resolves to an open, not a fretted string.

Other than the open 5th string, I don't hear anything below the 3rd string either. Burnette sounds like Lil' Son Jackson was a big influence.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on May 18, 2018, 11:00:51 PM
I hear it as Spanish.
He does play the open 5th string later in the piece.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 19, 2018, 09:06:20 AM
The questions on "Lonesome Moon Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Ranie Burnette use to play the song? - Spanish capoed at second fret.
   * Where did Ranie Burnette fret the signature lick he plays from :07--:10? - 2nd str 3; 1st str 3 4 5 0; 3rd str 3b
   * True or false:  Ranie Burnette never frets a string lower in pitch than the third string in the course of his rendition. - I hear the open fifth string at 2.29
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 20, 2018, 05:45:27 AM
Yeah, after reading Banjo Chris's post and listening again it is sounding like he's in Spanish.  I heard that A bass note he hits on the open 5th string and just went off down the wrong road.  Really must learn to contain myself, exercise a bit of restraint, and explore all the possibilities :-)
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harriet on May 22, 2018, 07:35:31 AM
I hear spanish.
I hear an open bass 5 throughout.
I heard the run but used transcribe so I will wait to see if its anywhere near what he was playing, if I heard correctly I would like to consider John Lee Hooker's Hobo Blues or Crawling King Snake as a possible influence, both Fred Mcdowell and RL Burnside had versions and used similar notes, that's what I based my study of it on.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: WillMo on May 22, 2018, 09:50:02 PM
Spanish capoed first fret to G#

Ranie was a bit more mentor to RL and learning from Fred.   North Mississippi Hill Country goodness.

I heard a bass G# / 5th string like clock work all throughout but maybe that my thumb.

Good vid from Sunday on playing in this position from Kenny Brown taught Reed Turchi here, 'Skinny Woman':   https://youtu.be/QbcZUmT6QcQ

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 23, 2018, 09:52:03 AM
Hi all,
The Ranie Burnette puzzler has been up for a while now, so I will post the answers.  Here goes:

For Ranie Burnette's "Lonesome Moon Blues":
   * His playing position was Spanish tuning
   * He played his signature lick from :07--:10 as follows:  The lick starts on beat two of the measure.  On beat two , he plays a triplet, going from a slide into the third fret of the second string followed by the unison open first string, resolving then to the third fret of the first string.  On beat three, he plays another triplet, dividing the middle eighth note of the triplet into two sixteenth notes like so--The first note of the triplet is the fifth fret of the first string, for the middle of the triplet he pulls off from the third fret of the first string to the open first string, and for the third note of the triplet, he plays the first fret of the second string.  For beat four, he hits the third fret of the third string on beat four and the open third string on the + of beat four.
   * It is true that Ranie Burnette never frets a string lower than the third string in the course of his rendition.  He picks the open fifth string, but he does not fret it.  His left hand is a model of economy on this song, for in the course of the song, he only ever frets the third string at the third fret, the second string at the first and third frets, and the first string at the third, fifth and eighth frets. 

Because of this very pared back left hand part, I think "Lonesome Moon Blues" is a great candidate for figuring out by ear--the whole thing.  I would recommend not slowing it down, but being prepared to listen to a given passage as many times as is necessary to figure it out.  My issue with slowing things down to learn them is that I believe it trains your ear to be slow.  When you consider that the universe of choices in the left hand for this song is so small, it shouldn't take too long to figure any portion of the song out.  I would also recommend trying to hear melodic lines and riffs based on where they live in the scale.  When you begin to hear things that way, you can hear runs in any position or tuning, and you just apply the fingering appropriate to that position or tuning.  Taking the signature lick discussed in question two and describing it this way, you end up with the following scalar description of the run:  The beat two triplet goes from a slide into V to a unison V open first string and then up to a bVII in the scale.  On beat three, it goes from a high I note followed by a pull-off from bVII to V followed by a IV note o the second string.  On beat four, it goes from a bIII note on the third string to a low I note on the open third string. 

Once you have that scalar formula for the run, find it and play it in other positions or tunings, play it in E position, standard tuning, A position, standard tuning, Vestapol, etc.  Once you've played the same run in several different keys, positions or tunings you will thoroughly have the sound of it in your head and will find it much easier to locate in a new position or tuning.

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzler; it is your participation that really makes this thread work.  I hope folks enjoyed the song, and it would be great if someone figured out "Lonesome Moon Blues" and posted it on the Back Porch.  I will look for another puzzler to post soon.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harriet on May 23, 2018, 10:48:00 AM
With due respect, nobody got the run right so I don't think its that easy, he probably switches that up throughout the song and tailors each verse and fills to the song as well, adjusting rhythm, making up for what one might say is lack of instrumental complexity, so as a participant in the thread it's beyond my capabilities at this point to work out the music. The music is vocal driven IMHO, and needs both the voice and guitar. Just my two cents, and again with due respect for the other participants who might feel up to the task and are interested.

Harriet
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 23, 2018, 03:47:34 PM
Hi all,
When I suggested doing the whole thing, Harriet, I was including the vocal in the suggestion.  While the piece is not without its subtleties, it is technically one of the easier pieces to play that you will encounter in the style.  There are no chords or chord changes, the thumb in the picking hand never hits anything other than the open fifth string, you never have to fret more than one note at a time and the universe of possible note choices is quite small. 
For anyone willing to try figuring it out, I would suggest being very empirical--get in tune with Ranie Burnette in Spanish tuning, and figure out what he plays from :00--:06.  Once you've got that, go on to the next phrase.  Continue through the piece that way, a phrase at a time.  Notice when he repeats a phrase or lick intact.  Listen for when he drops the bass out under his singing.  Remember that every "mistake" or phrase you try that doesn't end up being what he played is just enriching your context, filling out your knowledge of why the right notes sound right and the wrong ones don't sound right.
I think of transcribing songs as basically engaging in wars of attrition--I know I'll get there eventually, and I know it may take a while, but that all I have to do is stick with it until I've got it.  And you can stop at any point and say, "I've got enough of this.", or "close enough is close enough".  The current vogue for exactitude in transcription is just that, a stylistic choice.  None of our musical heroes and heroines copied their models exactly.  The presumption was that the musical materials they were starting from  would be re-expressed in accordance with their own way of hearing things, playing time, etc.
All best,
Johnm
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 29, 2018, 04:13:47 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is Honeyboy Edwards' "Army Blues", recorded by Alan Lomax for the Library of Congress in 1942.  On it, Honeyboy is joined by a harmonica player.  Here is the track:

https://youtu.be/2C6Ql4ketcQ

The questions on "Army Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Honeyboy Edwards use to play the song?
   * Where is Honeyboy fretting the bend he does in the first verse immediately following his opening line, "When I first started to bumming"?
   * Where does Honeyboy fret the ascending run he plays into his IV chord from 1:02--1:03?

Please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, May 31.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy "Army Blues".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on May 30, 2018, 04:03:14 AM
I believe it?s Honeyboy playing rack harp. Anyway, I?ll get my mind and ears back to the puzzle.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 30, 2018, 06:25:36 AM
Thanks for the clarification, Phil.  I had read that but forgot it.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 01, 2018, 09:04:00 AM
The questions on "Army Blues" are:

   * What playing position/tuning did Honeyboy Edwards use to play the song? - G standard capoed up


   * Where is Honeyboy fretting the bend he does in the first verse immediately following his opening line, "When I first started to bumming"? - 1str 6fr

   * Where does Honeyboy fret the ascending run he plays into his IV chord from 1:02--1:03? -4str 0 1 2; 3str 0
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 02, 2018, 09:05:55 AM
Agree with the Prof on Army Blues. Sounds capo'ed at the 5th fret assuming he's not tuned low.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 03, 2018, 10:41:52 AM
Thanks for the responses on the Honeyboy Edwards puzzler, Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned.  Any other takers?  Come cone, come all!  Answer just one question or all three.
All best,
John
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on June 05, 2018, 08:18:45 AM
Going with the Prof although I did think Spanish at one point.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 08, 2018, 09:18:17 AM
Hi all,
I think everyone who intended to respond to the Honeyboy Edwards puzzler has done so by now, so I will post the answers:

For Honeyboy Edwards' "Army Blues":
   * His playing position was G in standard tuning as all who responded had it--well done!
   * Honeyboy fretted the bend at the end of the first line of the first verse at the sixth fret of the first string as Prof Scratchy had it, with Old Man Ned and blueshome concurring.
   * Honeyboy fretted the ascending run he played into the IV chord at 1:02--1:03 as follows:  He hits a pick-up note on the open fourth string on the + of beat three in the 9th bar of the form.  For beat four of that measure he plays a triplet walking up from the open fourth string chromatically, open to first fret to second fret.  He concludes the ascending run by hitting the third fret of the third string on the downbeat of the tenth measure, landing on the seventh note of the C7 chord to which he is resolving. 

Honeyboy's playing on these early recordings is much as it was later in his life--simultaneously technically flashy and really country, with lots of metric irregularities, chords omitted from the progression and changing the form in subtle ways as he progressed through the song.  These "country" qualities made him very challenging to play with for other musicians (especially guitarists), in much the way that Robert Lowery was challenging to play with; you absolutely could not take anything for granted in terms of where chord changes were going to fall, or even if they were going to be played, in the course of a song's rendition.  I saw some pretty darn good musicians get lost by Honeyboy in the course of backing him.  Really, he was a born soloist, not an ensemble player except as professional opportunities put him in that role.

I hope folks enjoyed the song and I thank Prof Scratchy, Old Man Ned and blueshome for their participation in the puzzler.  I'll try to find another good one.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 08, 2018, 11:19:49 AM
I imagine most folks will have seen by now the wonderful clip of Honeyboy Edwards from 1942. It?s amazing that these gems get unearthed after so many years. In colour and with recently overdubbed sound, you really get a sense of what a stellar player he was in his younger days: https://youtu.be/4FMpW9laHIY


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: jpeters609 on June 08, 2018, 11:52:30 AM

This footage is amazing. It's silent, but the "American Epic" folks expertly edited in Honeyboy's Library of Congress recording of "Army Blues," which he likely recorded at some point on the same day.

Also, the dancers seen in the footage were also filmed by Lomax, but at a different location. They were not actually there, in Clarksdale, dancing to Honeyboy's music.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 11, 2018, 09:46:08 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is Wade Walton's version of "Shake 'Em On Down", from his Prestige-Bluesville album of the same name in the early '60s.  Wade Walton had a barbershop in Clarksdale, Mississippi and it was evidently a musical gathering place in much the same way as Archie Edwards' barbershop was in Washington, D. C.  Here is Wade Walton's version of "Shake 'Em On Down":

https://youtu.be/iHBQVMHhouY

INTRO

For my breakfast, give me, soft-boiled egg, for my dinner, give me, fish and bread, for my supper, lay me down 'tween your legs,
REFRAIN: Must I holler, baby, must I shake 'em on down
Mmmm, done stopped hollerin', b'lieve I shake 'em on down

There's no heaven, baby, there's no burnin' hell, where I'm goin', pretty baby, when I die can't nobody tell
REFRAIN: Must I holler, baby, must I shake 'em on down
Mmmm, done stopped hollerin', b'lieve I shake 'em on down

SOLO

Baby, baby, you don't seem to understand, I can get me a woman quicker 'n you can a man
REFRAIN: Must I holler, baby, must I shake 'em on down
Mmmm, done stopped hollerin', b'lieve I shake 'em on down

Mama, mama, look at sis', standin' in the backyard tryin' to, do the twist
REFRAIN: Must I holler, baby, must I shake 'em on down
Mmmm, done stopped hollerin', b'lieve I shake 'em on down

CODA 

The questions on Wade Walton's 'Shake 'Em On Down" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Wade Walton use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the signature lick he plays throughout the song, and for the first time, from 0:00--:04?
   * What does Wade Walton fret for the IV chord he plays from :28--31?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, June 13.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy "Shake 'Em On Down".

All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 14, 2018, 04:14:23 AM
The questions on Wade Walton's 'Shake 'Em On Down" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Wade Walton use to play the song? -Spanish capoed at 2fr

   * Where did he fret the signature lick he plays throughout the song, and for the first time, from 0:00--:04? - bends then releases third fret of fifth string followed by a brush of open third and fourth strings with immediate hammer-on to third fret of fourth string. He then bounces off the 3fr 4str to play again the open 3str-4str brush.

   * What does Wade Walton fret for the IV chord he plays from :28--31- possibly x5x005
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on June 14, 2018, 10:34:49 AM
 * What playing position/tuning did Wade Walton use to play the song?
          Spanish tuning around A

  * Where did he fret the signature lick he plays throughout the song, and for the first time, from 0:00--:04?

     - Thumbs open 5th (and lets other strings ring)
     - Hits open 3rd & 4th strings and quickly cuts them off.
     - Followed by triplet of: xx00xx   xx3xxx  xx00xx (bending that 3rd fret     
       on 4th string)
     - Thumbs 3rd fret 5th string (bent)
     - Followed by same open strings & triplet as described above.

He seems to let strings ring throughout the song, so where I typed "x" I didn't mean that those strings are muted.

* What does Wade Walton fret for the IV chord he plays from :28--31?

     x5x505 It sounds like there's something else going on there. Maybe something alternating between
     3rd and 2nd strings.

I'm not super confident with any of those answers. Maybe not even with the tuning- perhaps the 2nd string is somewhere outside of Spanish?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 14, 2018, 01:22:49 PM
Do I love this tune...this is what I'm getting so far:
Open G, capo'd up

from 0:00--:04
----------------------------
---0------------------------
0--0--0---0------0--0----0
0--0----4--------------4---
0-------------3w-----------
-----------------------------

w=bend

The IV chord he plays from :28--31 is bugging me. I'm approximating this with

--5-
--0-
--0-
--5-
----
----
where there is some emphasis to bring out the 4th and 3rd strings and the first string at the 5th fret just rings out, if that makes any sense.


Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 18, 2018, 09:49:58 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the puzzler on Wade Walton's version of "Shake 'Em On Down" has done so, so I will post the answers now.

For Wade Walton's "Shake 'Em On Down":
   * His playing position was Spanish tuning, as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * His signature lick, which he first plays from :00--:04 works like this, I believe:  On beat 1, he brushes the open fifth and fourth strings, and on the + of beat one, he brushes the open third and second strings. On beat two he brushes the fourth third and second strings, fretting the fourth string at the fifth fret, pulling off to the third fret of of the fourth string and then hammering back to the fifth fret on the + of beat two, while simultaneously brushing the open third and second strings on the + of beat two.  On beat 3, he hits the third fret of the sixth string followed by a brush of the open third and second strings on the + of beat 3.  Beat four repeats what he played on beat 2.  This signature lick has a wonderful spareness to it, especially when played underneath his singing, and Wade Walton plays it with great control and consistency.
   * Wade Walton's IV chord is as Prof Scratchy had it X-5-X-0-0-5.  It's conceivable that he fretted the sixth and fourth strings, but he did not sound them.  I have never heard another player in the style utilize this voicing of a IV chord when playing in Spanish.  What is also interesting is that when Wade Walton plays the IV chord in his turn-around in his solo, he plays a conventional IV chord, barring the top four strings at the fifth fret.

Thanks  to Prof Scratchy, Forgetful Jones and Old Man Ned for participating in the puzzler, and I hope folks enjoyed Wade Walton's version of "Shake 'Em On Down".  I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.
all best,
Johnm

   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 29, 2018, 12:11:04 PM
Hi all,
I've got a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is Larry Johnson's "Say What You Mean", taken from an album recorded when he was twenty-one years old, in 1959.  Like a lot of musicians, Larry's voice deepened over the years, and it's interesting to hear how much higher his vocal range was on this early recording than in his later years.  Here is "Say What You Mean":

https://youtu.be/EY8e3sG5NBc

INTRO

Say what you mean, and mean just what you say
Say what you mean, and mean just what you say
Because there's phonies dropping out, they're dropping out day by day

Well, you tell her that you love her, say you love her to her bones
Well, when you tell it to her, don't you tell it to her wrong
REFRAIN: Say what you mean, and mean just what you say
Because there's phonies dropping out, they're dropping out day by day

Now, there used to be a time that you could keep your woman fooled
But if you take it real close, man, they playin' it real cool
REFRAIN: Say what you mean, and mean just what you say
Because there's phonies dropping out, they're dropping out day by day

OUTRO

The questions on Larry Johnson's "Say What You Mean" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Larry use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret his bass run signature lick, which he plays from :18--:21, and throughout the song?
   * Where did Larry fret what he played over his IV chord, from :57--:58?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, July 2.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy Larry Johnson's rendition of "Say What You Mean".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on June 29, 2018, 02:27:56 PM
In the interest of thread drift, Stefan Wirz put all of "presenting the country blues" up on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjaKUgK9hbx9nUaFRXe0fAVZPV9vty2sY

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 03, 2018, 09:49:40 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Larry Johnson puzzler, "Say What You Mean"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 04, 2018, 01:58:47 AM
Am in the Western Isles just now with not enough internet connection to play videos, so may have to pass on this one!

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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on July 04, 2018, 03:29:25 AM
I?ll have go.
C standard
Run is 4th string 0121 5th string; 3 roll strings 6&5 at 3rd fret 4th string 01
5th string 3
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Vermonter on July 04, 2018, 07:58:26 AM
For Larry Johnson on youtube: thanks, Stefan!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on July 04, 2018, 01:48:42 PM
Bit late with this as I've been away with my work but I'm hearing this in C standard. For the bass run signature lick, which he plays from :18--:21, and throughout the song I'm getting something like:
-----------------------
-----------------------
---------0------------
--0-1-2-----------0--
3----------3----2----3
--------------3---------

Where did Larry fret what he played over his IV chord from :57--:58?
Is this an F chord at the 1st fret. doing something like:
-------------
--1-----3--1
--1h2--3--2
--3-----3--3
-------------
1------------
for want of a better way of describing it.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 09, 2018, 06:40:54 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to post answers to the Larry Johnson puzzler, "Say What You Mean" has done so, so I will post the answers.

For Larry Johnson's "Say What You Mean":
   * His playing position was C position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!
   * Larry Johnson played his bass signature lick from :18--:21, and throughout the song, like so:  On the + of beat 1, he plays the third fret of the fifth string.  On beat 2, he plays a triplet, walking up the fourth string chromatically, open, first fret, second fret.  On beat three, he plays another triplet, going from the open third string to the third fret of the sixth string and then to the open fifth string.  On beat four, he plays another triplet, going from the first fret to the second fret on the fifth string and then to the open fourth string, resolving back to the third fret of the fifth string where he began the run on the downbeat of the next measure.
   * Larry fretted what he played over the IV chord, from :57--:58, as follows:  On the + of beat one of the measure, he begins a thumb roll from the third fret of the fourth string, following through with the thumb and brushing the third fret of the third and second strings on beat 2.  On the + of beat 2, he returns with the thumb to the third fret of the fourth string, beginning another thumb roll, following through with a brush of the third and second strings in which the third string has a hammer from an index finger barre at the first fret to the second finger fretting the second fret of the third string, and the index barre frets the first fret of the second string.  By rocking to 3-3-3 on the fourth through second strings on beat two, Larry is essentially going to a momentary Bb chord, which functions as the IV of the IV chord, F.  It's a move that J B Lenoir especially liked and used a lot.  Old Man Ned pretty much had this move figured out.

Thanks to those who participated, and I hope folks enjoyed the song.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 15, 2018, 01:22:55 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is George Henry Bussey's "Looking For My Woman".  Here is the track:

https://youtu.be/BL31eip6M38

The question on "Looking For My Woman" is:
   * What playing position/tuning did George Henry Bussey use to play the song?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, July 17th.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 19, 2018, 06:06:33 AM
I?ll say A standard, tuned very low to sound in E.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on July 19, 2018, 12:47:47 PM
I initially thought E tuned very low as I'm hearing it follow the chord progression found in Crow Jane but the more I listen the more I'm hearing George Henry Bussey's "Looking For My Woman" played out of G tuned about a step and a half down.

Love this tune. Made me go back and listen to the other Gearge Mitchell recordings of George Henry Bussey.

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on July 19, 2018, 07:39:57 PM
I think its in A position tuned way down low.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on July 20, 2018, 02:52:30 AM
I'd say A tuned low too. Nice, I'll have to listen to his other tunes.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on July 21, 2018, 06:15:45 AM
Basically Richmond Blues which is normally played out of A. So A well low Works fine.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 23, 2018, 07:00:23 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intended to respond to the George Henry Bussey puzzler has done so by now, so I will post the answer. 

George Henry Bussey played "Looking For My Woman" out of A position in standard tuning, tuned a full fourth low, sounding in E.  A way you could differentiate from the sound of what he's playing as being in A position rather than G position tuned a minor third low is that in the 6th bar of the song's 8-bar progression, he goes to a V chord, hitting the low root of the V chord on the 6th string.  In A position in standard tuning, the low root of the V chord, E is available on the open sixth string.  In G position, standard tuning, the lowest note available on the 6th string is the VI note, E, so he couldn't have hit that low V note had he been playing out of G position in standard tuning, tuned low.

One thing I remember being impressed by in the George Mitchell recordings was that the musician most commonly covered by the musicians that George Mitchell recorded was Blind Boy Fuller, and this was not just by musicians from the Carolinas, but also players from Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Memphis.  Mitchell's recordings really made clear what an enormously influential musician Blind Boy Fuller was.

Thanks to all who participated and I hope you enjoyed the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 05, 2018, 05:21:37 AM
Hi all,
I've come up with a new puzzler for all who are interested.  It is Robert Curtis Smith's "Calvary", and it can be heard on the attached link, courtesy of Stefan Wirz, who put up the link four months ago.  I was fascinated to hear it, because I didn't know that Robert Curtis Smith had been recorded in the years since the '60s when he had an album come out on Prestige Bluesville and several tracks come out on Arhoolie, as well.  It turns out that Robert Curtis Smith had re-located to Chicago, and at the time when the recordings on the link were made, he had made a decision to play only religious material.  I've very much enjoyed this newer material, as I had his blues.  "Calvary" begins at 11:38 on the attached link, and runs to the end of the link.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/diFbx_967vA

INTRO

REFRAIN:  Calvary, Calvary
Calvary, Lord, Calvary
Calvary, Calvary
Surely He died on Calvary

REFRAIN:  Calvary, Calvary
Calvary, Lord, Calvary
Calvary, Calvary
Surely He died on Calvary

Can't you hear Him, calling, "Father"?
Can't you hear Him, calling his Father?
Can't you hear Him, calling his Father?
Surely He died on Calvary

REFRAIN:  Calvary, Lord, Calvary
Calvary, Lord, Calvary
Calvary, Calvary
Surely He died on Calvary

SOLO

REFRAIN:  Calvary, Lord, Calvary
Calvary, Lord, Calvary
Calvary, Calvary
Surely He died on Calvary

The questions on Robert Curtis Smith's version of "Calvary" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Robert Curtis Smith use to play the song?
   * Where did Robert Curtis Smith fret his IV and V chords for the song?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM on Tuesday, August 7.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 08, 2018, 06:01:32 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Robert Curtis Smith puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 09, 2018, 02:11:19 AM
This is a tough one. I?ll say standard tuning round about F sharp, with a B9 for the IV and Cs9 for the V.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 09, 2018, 12:48:06 PM
It certainly is a tough one. At the moment, I'm at G, standard tuning, but that my change as I've no idea on the positions of the IV or V chords yet.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 09, 2018, 03:32:19 PM
Prof and Old Man Ned,
Good on you guys for breaking the ice on this one.  It is indeed a tough and unusual position/tuning identification--it's not just your imagination!  My advice would be to hang in there and listen in particular to what Robert Curtis Smith hits in the bass.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 12, 2018, 08:15:54 AM
I've not got a lot further with the Robert Curtis Smith puzzler but if pressed now I would say, without much confidence, Dminor though I haven't got a clue about the IV and V chords.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 13, 2018, 05:53:59 AM
Still a mystery to me, I'm afraid!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on August 13, 2018, 07:54:09 AM
I?m hearing Vasterpol at Eb with the usual 1st position IV and V chords.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 17, 2018, 03:44:48 PM
Hi all,
It seems like a good time to post the answers to the Robert Curtis Smith puzzler on "Calvary", since the most recent response came in four days ago.  Here are the answers:

For Robert Curtis Smith's performance of "Calvary":
   * His playing position was G position in dropped-D tuning, tuned a half-step low, so that he was sounding in the key of F#.  The steps in establishing that as his playing position will be outlined below. 
   * Adjusting for Robert Curtis Smith's having been tuned a half-step low, Prof Scratchy's response in his first answer was spot on, for Robert Curtis Smith played both his IV chord and his V chord as ninth chords, fingered X-3-2-3-3-3 and X-5-4-5-5-5, respectively.

The easiest aspect of the song to hear, I think, was the two ninth chords that Robert Curtis Smith played for his IV and V chords.  The use of them would suggest that he was either playing in G position or A position.  In fact, the melody, which he phrases right underneath his singing, sits in a beautifully convenient and economical way in the left hand, when playing in G position, going from a hammer from the third to the fifth fret on the fifth string, continuing up to the third fret of the fourth string, moving upward to the fifth fret of the fourth string, and upward from there to the third fret of the third string.  You can fret all of these melody notes by using your index finger to fret the notes at the third fret and your third or ring finger to fret the notes at the fifth fret.  When he resolves to a full I chord, around 11:45 on the attached link, he plays it as a 7#9 chord, fingered with the Root, G, played at the fifth fret of the sixth string, and the remainder of the chord fretted as follows:  X-5-4-6-6.  Up to that point, and through most of the first verse, it seems plausible that he was simply playing in G position in standard tuning.  At 12:08, though, near the end of the first verse, he plays a little ascending line on the sixth string going from a low V note up to a bVII note.  Were he playing in G position in standard tuning, that low V note would not be available, so the only other possibility given the other chord positions that he played is that he was playing in G position in dropped-D tuning, which would make that low V note available.  I should add that I think that Robert Curtis Smith almost certainly fretted that low root at the fifth fret of the sixth string with a thumb wrap. 

Is the Lonnie Johnson/Bo Carter DGDGBE tuning, and using it to play in G position a possibility?  Not really, because Robert Curtis Smith voiced both his IV and V chords with their roots on the fifth string.  The DGDGBE tuning would require him to finger them at X-5-2-3-3-3 for the IV chord and X-7-4-5-5-5 for the V chord, making them implausible knuckle-busters.

I don't know how many of you have listened to all of Robert Curtis Smith's songs on the link that had "Calvary" on it, but he plays every single one of those songs in dropped-D tuning, a playing position and tuning he never employed on either his Prestige Bluesville album or the tracks of his that were released on Arhoolie.  Of these later recordings on the link, all but two were played in dropped-D tuning in D position.  The other two were played in dropped-D tuning in G position, and those songs were "Calvary" and "Milky White Way" which immediately precedes "Calvary" on the link.  Robert Curtis Smith's tuning is a bit rough on some of those tracks, but they are definitely worth listening to, and his sound in dropped-D tuning was all his own.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy, Old Man Ned and blueshome for participating in the puzzler, which I think might have been the toughest in the whole series.  I hope folks liked "Calvary" and found these later tracks by Robert Curtis Smith as exciting as I have found them.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 18, 2018, 12:49:34 AM
Wow! A puzzler indeed. I don?t think I?d have worked that out in a month of Sundays, but it seems obvious when explained!


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on August 18, 2018, 01:05:02 AM
May have been tough but it proves yet again that I?ve a tin ear to be so far off.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 18, 2018, 01:30:29 PM
For me, that was the toughest puzzler yet. My gut feeling was that he was playing out of G, but the dropped G tuning I would never have got. It still messes with my head that Mance Lipsomb has played in A out of a dropped D tuning. I good lesson learnt though, and a reminder to me why I love this music so much. These guys like Robert Curtis Smith are so inventive. I love that G7#9 chord.

Thanks, as always, for the detailed explanation John.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 18, 2018, 05:13:12 PM
Hi all,
I hope that all of you who are interested in the song will try to work it out in G position in dropped-D tuning, working from Robert Curtis Smith's recording.  Remember to get in tune with him first, approximately half a step down from standard tuning--otherwise it is way too confusing to try to reproduce what he's playing a half-step away from where he is sounding.  The trickiest move in the song, which he does a couple of times, involves moving quickly from the G he is fretting at the fifth fret of the sixth string up to a Bb, played either at the eighth fret of the sixth string or the first fret of the fifth string, then resolving upward into the C note at the third fret of the fifth string.

As it turns out, playing in G in dropped-D tuning has some real advantages, in addition to having that wonderful sounding low root for your V chord.  If any of you have heard my second Blue Goose album, "How About Me", I played the title track out of G position in dropped-D tuning.  I later discovered that dropped-D works exceptionally well for a host of positions, including F, C, and A, as well as G.  One of the nicest features of playing in dropped-D for positions other than D is that it enables you to play a low root on the sixth string for chords played out of the D position up the neck.  Give it a try--you might find that you really like it.  And you don't have to necessarily play the sixth string with a thumb wrap if that is uncomfortable for you.  You may find that either the third or fourth finger can work well fretting the sixth string, too. It really makes a lot of things available that are not reachable in standard tuning.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 21, 2018, 04:06:50 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  The song is "Peach Tree Blues", as performed by the Tennessee musician Charley Sangster.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/IebIUOOGHpg

The questions on Charley Sangster's "Peach Tree Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where is he fretting his V7 chords?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, August 24.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on August 24, 2018, 05:39:36 AM
No one else?s head going on the block so....
Standard tuning key of G capoed up a little. V7 played out of C7 position from 3rd fret.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 24, 2018, 09:16:12 AM
I agree with blueshome!


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 24, 2018, 01:25:41 PM
That's the same that I've up with too.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 28, 2018, 11:02:04 AM
Thanks to blueshome, Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned for their responses to the Charley Sangster puzzlers.  Anyone else care to respond?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 30, 2018, 05:20:24 PM
Hi all,
It doesn't appear that anyone else is going to respond to the Charley Sangster puzzler, "Peach Tree Blues", so I'll post the answers.  Here goes:

For Charley Sangster's "Peach Tree Blues":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning
   * He played his V7 chords using a C7 shape moved up two frets.

In this instance, blueshome had both questions nailed in the initial response to the questions, and Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned concurred, so it was an instance of every response being correct in all regards--well done!  Thanks to you guys for responding and I hope that people enjoyed Charley Sangster's rendition of the song.  I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 06, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is Lattie Murrell's "Blues For Mattie Mae".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/yE7lDg1aVw0

The questions on "Blues For Mattie Mae" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lattie Murrell use to play the song?
   * What is the earliest point in the rendition at which you could identify the playing position/tuning?
   * How is Lattie Murrell playing the passage from :11--:14?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Sunday, September 9.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy "Blues For Mattie Mae".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 10, 2018, 12:20:09 PM
I'm hearing this out of E, standard tuning, but tuned a bit low. The I chord in the first few seconds, to me, sounds like it's played out of an E chord and when he goes up the neck at around 50 seconds too.

I've not discounted cross note tuning but feel more confident about E standard at the moment. The passage between 11:14 I'm hearing out of this shape on the top 3 strings:
0
8
6

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on September 10, 2018, 11:37:53 PM
I agree with Old Man Ned, E position, standard tuning.
I suspected that position/tuning when I heard the slide up the 6th string and then playing the open 5th string A for the root of the IV chord, at about 0:21.
The passage at :11, I think he is playing
0
8 and bending this note up somewhat
on the top two strings, plus the open 6th string. Not sure if I hear another string in there.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 11, 2018, 01:23:18 AM
Agree with Ned and David on key. For me the seventh note at .02 got me thinking that, although the same note would?ve sounded in crossnote or Vestapol I suppose. The adjacent hammered on bass run is typical in E, but again available in crossnote.....In short, I?m not at all sure where E standard emerges as the definitive position, but I look forward to finding out! At .11 I think open 1st str played against bent 8fr of 2nd str with open 6str in bass.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 13, 2018, 08:45:01 AM
Any other takers for the Lattie Murrell puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Floridablues on September 13, 2018, 04:23:06 PM
Newcomer to this. E standard dropped to C#. I tried open D but it didn't seem right. Of course that could be lack of knowledge of the little licks that tuning provides. The run and this a heavy guess top strings E and B third and fifth frets sliding into them. Look forward to learning from everyone. Thanks!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on September 13, 2018, 07:53:00 PM
I always listen to these, but my old ears are usually too slow for it not to be frustrating to work them out at speed. This one seemed slow enough so I gave a closer listen.

Right away I could tell that it was in the "E family", i.e. Standard at E, Vastapol, Crossnote and EAEGBE. I remembered that you had done a rundown of how to suss out this a few songs back, Johnm, so I went back and read it (page 126 in my browser). As everyone else noted, at 0.21 he clearly plays the IV note on the open 5 string so that ruled out Vastapol and Crossnote. I didn't have a chance to work with a guitar til today, but when I did I noticed him playing the lick Scratchy mentioned at 0.02, but I felt that could be played 4th string Open to 5th string 5th fret in EAEGBE relatively easily. But then right after playing the open 5th string for the IV he plays a hammer that would be from Open 4th string to 2nd fret in Standard, and it would be hard to continue the lick if this were done up high on the 5th string, ruling out EAEGBE. So E Standard somewhere sharp of C#.

And you do like those high fretted notes played against the open 1st string, Johnm.

Wax
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on September 14, 2018, 02:20:36 AM
Took my guitar that was in Vasterpol and thought it was near but not quite so I settled for cross note on the basis that it worked to my yin ears.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on September 14, 2018, 07:50:04 PM
Hello all-
- I think it's in E position, standard tuning, a few steps down low
- I figured it was standard tuning when he went to the A on the open 5th string at :21. Can't do that in Vestapol
- The passage at :11 reminds me of a Charley Patton's Green River. Is Lattie Murrell bending the 8th fret of the 2nd string and playing an open 1st? Thumb playing open 6th string. He could also bend the 12th fret of the 3rd string, I guess.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Dom94 on September 15, 2018, 03:50:48 AM
Hi,
I'm hearing this out of E, but I m pretty sure it s played in Vestapol tuned one step low

the earliest point is at the begining when he plays the main riff











Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on September 17, 2018, 09:28:15 AM
E standard for sure -- don't have anything to add to how Wax explained it!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 19, 2018, 12:12:59 PM
Hi all,
The Lattie Murrell puzzler on "Blues For Mattie Mae" has been up for a while, and the last response was two days ago, so I will post the answers.  Thanks to all who responded--it really deepens the discussion, so it's nice to have a lot of people participating.

For Lattie Murrell's "Blues For Mattie Mae":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning.
   * I couldn't with absolute certainty at this point identify the playing position as E position in standard tuning, but at the :03 mark, Lattie Murrell plays a double rolled hammer from the flat VII to the major VII up to I.  I was pretty sure he was in E position, standard tuning at that point, subject to it possibly being disproved later on.  This double rolled hammer is right under the left hand in E standard, with the open fourth string the flat VII, the major VII at the first fret of the fourth string, easily hammered by the index finger and the I note at the second fret of the fourth string, easily hammered by the second finger.  The  same double rolled hammer could be played in Vestapol or cross-note, in terms of the pitches, moving from the third fret to the fifth fret on the fifth string, though I have never heard a player in the style utilize that move in either of those tunings.  Similarly, the double rolled hammer could be played in EAEGBE tuning from the fifth to the seventh fret on the fifth string, an even more implausible scenario.  At :14--:16 he plays an ascending bass run from a bIII note on the sixth string third fret to a grace note hammer, from IV to V on the fifth string, from open to the second fret, concluding with a grace note hammer from bVII to I on the fourth string, from the open string to the second fret.  That IV note he hits on the fifth string in the course of that run eliminates Vestapol and cross-note as candidates, and the hammer on the fourth string eliminates EAEGBE as a possibility once and for all.
   * Lattie Murrell played the passage from :11--:14 exactly as a number of you identified it, hitting the open sixth string while brushing the open first string and the bent eighth fret of the second string in the treble.  You're right, Wax, I like that sound, both for its own sake, but also because it is such a distinctive sound, getting the lower note in pitch on a higher string played open, that it is a really helpful device to be able to recognize, every time you hear it.

Thanks to all who participated.  It was great to see how different people sussed out the puzzler.  I will look for another to post soon.
All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 27, 2018, 04:55:44 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is "Bad Night Blues", as performed by Mott Willis.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/g-twF4opSU0

The questions on "Bad Night Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Mott Willis use to play the song?
   * Where is Mott Willis fretting the two bends he plays at :06--:07, and where does he fret the note he harmonizes with the bends?
   * Where is he fretting the chord he plays at 1:02--1:03?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, October 1.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy "Bad Night Blues".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 02, 2018, 03:08:11 PM
Hi all,
Any takers on the Mott Willis puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on October 03, 2018, 06:43:16 AM
Here we go with tin ear again.
I put the song in G standard, tuned sharp or capoed.
I hear the bend at 3rd fret 3rd string played against the open 2nd string, presumably using an unwound 3rd to get the bend easily.
At 1:02 he plays a D partial from 3rd position
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on October 03, 2018, 01:04:45 PM
He's in C position, standard tuning; sounds like he's tuned quite low. Have to listen with a guitar in hand to get the rest.
Chris
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 04, 2018, 09:41:18 AM
I make it C too, tuned very low. I think he?s bending the third fret if the second string, and then an abbreviated G chord at 1.02.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 07, 2018, 10:03:23 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Mott Willis puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 08, 2018, 10:37:09 AM
Hi all,
The Mott Willis puzzler has been up for a while and not generated many responses, so I think I will post the answers.

For "Bad Night Blues":
   * Mott Willis' playing position was C position in standard tuning, as banjochris and Prof Scratchy had it, tuned quite low (and thus making extreme bends possible);
   * At :06 and :07, he bends the third fret of the second string up practically a whole step, as Prof Scratchy had it, while fretting the third fret of the first string at the same time.  I don't care how low you're tuned, that takes some real left hand strength, especially that close to the nut, where the strings are tighter.
   * At 1:02--1:03, he hits his turn-around chord, which is a very pretty G7, fretted at 3-0-0-3, from the fourth string to the first string and voiced bVII-R-3-R.

Based on the small sampling of his tunes available on youtube, Mott Willis was a really sophisticated guitar player--don't let his slow tempos fool you--who operated in harmonic territory inhabited by Hacksaw Harney, Eugene Powell, Bo Carter, and very few other Mississippi guitarists of his era who were recorded.  Every one of his pieces that I've heard would be worth figuring out, and he also comes across as a really funny man, with a delivery akin to Pink Anderson's.

Thanks to blueshome, banjochris and Prof Scratchy for participating, and I hope people enjoyed the cut.

All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 10, 2018, 06:57:07 AM
Hi all,
I just realized, in the course of entering Mott Willis' "Bad Night Blues" in the index for this thread, that it is the three hundredth song we've taken a look at in this thread.  As Mel Allen used to say, how about that! 
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on October 10, 2018, 10:02:07 AM
WOW!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Rivers on October 10, 2018, 10:41:15 AM
Fantastic resource, thanks to all contributors and in particular to Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on October 10, 2018, 11:09:26 AM
Amazing work Johnm!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 10, 2018, 01:57:47 PM
That's incredible. Amazing it's hit 300. Thanks so much for this thread John, it's been a huge help to me.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 10, 2018, 03:14:38 PM
Congratulations and thanks for all your hard work in putting this thread together! Now, roll on no.301!


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on October 11, 2018, 10:14:39 AM
Congratulations and thank you, John. As the Prof said, it is the result of a lot of hard work and is a very significant contribution.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 11, 2018, 04:20:35 PM
Hi all,
Thanks for the good words, and thanks in particular to Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy, who have been such regular participants in the puzzlers.  I'm convinced participation in the puzzlers is a skill-building exercise in developing the ability to identify playing position/tuning, especially if engaged in over a period of time.

Before I get back into posting more puzzlers, I'm curious:  I wonder how many folks have figured out one or more of the songs that have been discussed in this thread.  There are indexes to every song on this thread in the very first post to this thread.  I went back and took a look, and found that I had figured out/transcribed the following songs that have been discussed in this thread:
   * Up and Down Building The KC Line--Little Brother
   * Alabama Prison Blues--Jesse Wadley
   * Trouble--Reese Crenshaw
   * Sun Don't Shine--Teddy Williams
   * French Blues--Frank Evans
   * Baton Rouge Rag--Joe Harris
   * Guitar Blues--Johnny St. Cyr
   * Too Many Women Blues--Willie Lane
   * Going Where the Monon Crosses the Yellow Dog--Scrapper Blackwell
   * Hollandale Blues--Sam Chatmon
   * I'm a Crawling' Black Snake--Lightnin' Hopkins
   * Run Here, Faro--Myrt Holmes
   * Faro--Rosa Lee Hill
   * Pretty Polly--E. C. Ball
   * War Blues--Pernell Charity
   * See What You Done Done--Baby Tate
   * Rosalee--Luther Huff
   * Just A Note--Ralph Willis

I know that Gordon figured out Boy Green's "A & B Blues" and posted it on site.  Has anybody else figured out songs from this thread?  In a way, that's what developing the ability to identify playing position/tuning is all about. 
all best,
Johnm

   
     
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 12, 2018, 01:17:46 PM
I had a go at Baby Tate's See What You Done Done, but mostly it's inspired me to try transcribing other tunes by some of my favourites, such as Charlie Jordan's Two Street Blues and Raidin' Squad Blues  and Hacksaw Harney's Ragtime Blues with varying degrees of success.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 12, 2018, 01:22:50 PM
Thanks for the report, Old Man Ned.  Applying the skills to the material that most appeals to you is a great way to go--keep up the good work!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 12, 2018, 03:01:25 PM
The only one I had a serious attempt at was French Blues, but then I did have some additional help from a certain Johnm ;)


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: harriet on October 12, 2018, 03:32:49 PM
No, I think its more that I like alot of the musical selections of lesser known artists presented in the puzzlers and occasionally I will go online and buy more of that artist's work. The thread has definitely led to a broader horizon and I thank you for it.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 12, 2018, 05:28:59 PM
I think my experience of doing the thread has been much like what you talk about, Harriet.  I think when I started the thread I had the idea that I had a pretty good knowledge of recorded Country Blues.  I was quickly disabused of that notion when I began to see the amount of stuff up on youtube by musicians in the style that I had never heard or heard of before.  It also re-emphasized something I already felt, that when critics, writers and fans of the music set up hierarchies of who is "the best", "the most accomplished", or whatever other superlative you'd care to use to describe a musician, they're basically barking up the wrong tree.  I've run into so many musicians in the course of picking out the puzzlers, many of whom were field recorded and may have only recorded a couple of titles, who were every bit as good as the big-name players who made commercial recordings.  If you haven't listened to it for a while, go back near the beginning of the thread and listen to Big Boy doing "Blues".  It is incredibly good, both instrumentally and vocally, as good a train blues with a narrative as has ever been done.  Or Eddie Bowles doing "Blues"--so fresh and original sounding.  I feel lucky to have had a reason to search out this stuff.
All best,
Johnm
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on October 12, 2018, 08:28:38 PM
And that's only the recordings that are extant and accessible. Not positing an argument from ignorance, but when we consider that many musicians and their performances were never recorded, the possibilities boggle the imagination--or at least my imagination.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 14, 2018, 09:50:32 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is John Henry Barbee's version of Big Maceo's "Worried Life Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/hYkPsz5AtHw

The questions on "Worried Life Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did John Henry Barbee use to play the song?
   * How does his solo differ structurally from the remainder of the song?
   * Where did John Henry Barbee fret the run that concludes the first four bars of his solo, from 2:15--2:17?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, October 17.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy John Henry Barbee's rendition of "Worried Life Blues".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 17, 2018, 08:18:44 AM
This is such a great performance, especially vocally, from John Henry Barbee. I think he?s playing it in D standard. The song is an 8 bar blues but he plays the solo break as a 12 bar form. For the solo excerpt, I think he takes a double stop of 1str 4fr and 2str 5fr which he slides up to 1str 5fr and 2str 7fr: slide23456, slide 23456, slide23456, slide23456 then on the first string hammering on from 5fr to 7fr 4 times ending on 1str 5fr, then 2str 765, then 3str 7 4 .


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 18, 2018, 12:46:59 PM
I'm in agreement with Prof Scratchy. D standard, I'm not hearing a low 6th string tuned down to D. 8 bars for the verse and 12 for the solo, if I'm counting right (not my strong point).

From 2:15--2:17, I'm also hearing the 1st string at the 5th fret, 2nd string at the 7th fret with the hammer on the 1st string at the 7th fret. Agree with the end of the run as well. I had this down the neck finishing on the b on the open 2nd string, but on listening it doesn't sound like an open string being picked and the ending of 1str 5fr, then 2str 765, then 3str 7 4 fits better with where he is for the first bit.

Also agree with the Prof about the vocals. John Henry Barbee does have a wonderful voice, doesn't he.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 19, 2018, 10:05:56 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the John Henry Barbee puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on October 19, 2018, 11:57:45 PM
I?m with the Prof on this.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 24, 2018, 09:14:14 AM
Hi all,
It doesn't appear that there will be any more responses on the John Henry Barbee puzzler, so I'll post the answers.

For John Henry Barbee's version of "Worried Life Blues",
   * His playing position was D in standard tuning, as all three responses had it--well done!
   * He played his solo as a 12-bar blues, while the sung portions of the song have an 8-bar form, as the responses noted
   * John Henry Barbee fretted the run from 2:15--2:17 as follows:  He does five hammers from the fifth fret of the first string to the seventh fret of the first string, resolves back to the fifth fret of the first string, walks down the second string from seventh to sixth to fifth to third fret and ends the descending run at the fourth fret of the third string.  If you begin the phrase using your index finger to fret the fifth fret of the first string, the ring finger can fret the seventh fret of both the first and second strings.  The second finger can fret the sixth fret of the second string, resolving to the index, which can fret both the fifth and third frets of the second string, resolving to the second finger, fretting the fourth fret of the third string.  The next phrase begins with the second finger sliding up into that fourth fret of the third string.

John Henry Barbee sounds so strong in what he did, both vocally and instrumentally, on every recording I've ever heard of him, and he had the rhythmic energy to sound like a whole band in a solo performance.  Thanks to Prof Scratchy, Old Man Ned and blueshome for their responses.  I'll look for another puzzler to post soon, and I hope people enjoyed John Henry Barbee's "Worried Life Blues".
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 31, 2018, 02:49:07 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is J B Lenoir's recording of "Down In Mississippi", for which he was joined by Freddie Below, Jr. on drums and Willie Dixon on back-up vocals.  Here is "Down In Mississippi":

https://youtu.be/mvADUarQM8I

INTRO

Far as back as I can remember, either had a plow or a hoe
One of those old nine-feet sack, standin' at the old turn-row
REFRAIN: Down in Mississippi, down in Mississippi
Down in Mississippi where, I was born, down in Mississippi where, I come from

Nothin' I got against Miss'sippi, it's also was the home of my wife
But I feel just like I'm a lucky man, to get away with my life
REFRAIN: Down in Mississippi, down in Mississippi
Down in Mississippi where, I was born, down in Mississippi where, I come from

They had a huntin' season on a rabbit, if you shoot him you went to jail
The season was always open on me, nobody needed no bail
REFRAIN: Down in Mississippi, down in Mississippi
Down in Mississippi where, I was born, down in Mississippi where, I come from

The questions on J B Lenoir's "Down In Mississippi are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did J B Lenoir fret what he played at the beginning of the song, before the singing comes in?
   * Where did J B Lenoir fret the chord he played at :21--:22 and what is the chord?
   * Where did J B Lenoir fret the descending fill he plays from 1:15--1:16?
   * Why don't more people write songs this well?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday, November 3.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy "Down In Mississippi".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 04, 2018, 02:10:36 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the J B Lenoir puzzler, "Down In Mississippi"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Rivers on November 04, 2018, 05:37:43 PM
Workin' on it... great piece

* What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   E modal position (damped third, sometimes hitting the minor 3rd, never the major 3rd), in standard tuning

* Where did J B Lenoir fret what he played at the beginning of the song, before the singing comes in?
   Not sure, closest voicing I can get is 0 x 5 4 5 3 - Em7 (edit, corrected 6th string, was 1, s/be open)

* Where did J B Lenoir fret the chord he played at :21--:22 and what is the chord?
  2 x 1 2 2 2 - B9/5 (?)

* Where did J B Lenoir fret the descending fill he plays from 1:15--1:16?
   open second string // pull off the 2nd fret of the third string to open // end on the root E on the fourth string at the 2nd fret. In other places he strikes the open second string three- or four times before going down - nice!

* Why don't more people write songs this well?
   I totally agree with you
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 05, 2018, 02:28:07 AM
The questions on J B Lenoir's "Down In Mississippi are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song? - standard tuning Em
   * Where did J B Lenoir fret what he played at the beginning of the song, before the singing comes in? - chord xx5430
   * Where did J B lLenoir fret the chord he played at :21--:22 and what is the chord? B9 221222
   * Where did J B Lenoir fret the descending fill he plays from 1:15--1:16? - 3str 2fr>3str open;4str 2fr x2
   * Why don't more people write songs this well? - they (we) lack what JB had in the genius (and coolth)department....
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 05, 2018, 01:13:00 PM
I was puzzling over J B Lenoir's "Down In Mississippi last night and am also coming up with Em sound in standard tuning.

I hear J B Lenoir fret what he played at the beginning of the song around an E minor chord, held on the first 3 strings:
---3
---5
---4
The chord he played at :21--:22 was what I couldn't get a handle on at all, but listening again I'm hearing what Rivers has.
The descending fill he plays from 1:15--1:16 I had as, on the 3rd string 4th, 2nd to 1st fret, then 4th string 2nd fret twice.
Why don't more people write songs this well?...?..I guess folk as intelligent and expressive as J.B. Lenoir only come along once in a very long while.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 08, 2018, 08:12:29 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the J B Lenoir puzzler, "Down In Mississippi?"  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 11, 2018, 09:23:58 AM
Hi all,
It has been several days since the last response on the J. B. Lenoir "Down In Mississippi " puzzler, so I will post the answers.

For J. B. Lenoir's "Down In Mississippi":
   * His playing position was E in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!
   * At the beginning of the song, before he comes in singing, and at the beginning of each verse, J. B. Lenoir fretted 7-8-0 on the first three strings, going from the third string to the first, left to right.  It's a way of voicing an Em7 chord that is both really striking sounding and very economical to play in the left hand.  J. B. Lenoir was particularly fond of voicing chords and melodies on the fretted second and third strings and sounding the open first string along with them.  In order to get the same sonority that J. B. Lenoir got at the beginning of the song without utilizing the open first string, you would have to fret the first three strings at 7-5-3, or the fourth through second strings at 12-9-8, and in both of those instances, you would lose that eerie timbre you get from using the open first string in that chordal cluster.  All credit to J. B. Lenoir, he was a creative musician in so many ways.
   * The chord that J. B. Lenoir played at :21--:22 was fretted 2-2-2-2-2-2--he just barred all the way across at the second fret!  It sure is a distinctive sound.  You could name the chord a couple of ways.  If you hear it as a V chord of a sort, you could called it B9sus/F#, in which case it would be voiced 5-R-sus4-b7-9-5.  If you hear it as a ii minor chord, it would be an F#m11, voiced
R-11-b7-b3-5-R.  In this instance, you'd call the 4 note on the A string an 11 rather than a sus4 by virtue of there also being a 3 note and a 7 note in the chord.
   * For the descending fill at 1:15--1:16, Old Man Ned had it right.  The notes of the fill are B-A-G#-E-E.  He either began the run with the open B string or the fourth fret of the third string.  The second and third notes of the run were played at the second and first frets of the third string, respectively and the last two notes were both played at the second fret of the fourth string.
   * The last question was not exactly meant to be answered, but all the answers were good.  J. B. was unusual in the extent to which he most often actually had something to say in his lyrics, rather than simply speaking in cliches in the style.  Combine that intent with a great ear for a telling turn of phrase and his original musical ear and instrumental and vocal gifts, and you had a very  special musician.  I suspect he was the kind of musician who only comes along once.

Thanks to Rivers, Prof Scratchy and Old Man Ned for participating, and I hope folks enjoyed "Down In Mississippi".

All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Rivers on November 11, 2018, 09:28:30 PM
Thanks John, I look forward to working on it again tomorrow. It strikes me J.B. Lenoir's Down In Mississippi belongs in the Blues Forms and Vocal Phrasing thread. It's unlike anything else I know of, in particular the extended turnaround, where it mightily resists going to the V. Having made his point already going to the V would have been superfluous.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 13, 2018, 08:12:24 AM
You make a good point re the structure of "Down In Mississippi", Rivers.  I don't know another song in the style that shares its form and chord progression.  Actually, there isn't much of a chord progression, it's pretty static harmonically.  I think another distinctive feature of it is that the vocal and accompaniment operate in a true call-and-response fashion, since J B adopted the B. B. King approach of simply not playing while he was singing.  The more you think about it, the more you realize the extent to which it stood apart from blues structural norms.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Rivers on November 13, 2018, 06:26:04 PM
Yep. The last two vocal lines in each verse probably count as an 8 bar refrain added on to what I count as an 12 bar verse;

Refrain:
"Down in Mississippi where I was born
Down in Mississippi where I come from"

When playing it, rather than just listening to it, my brain wants to complete the last 4 bars with a lyric containing the V:

"Down in Mississippi."

But that vocal isn't there, leaving the lyric unresolved, and four bars of space for the guitar to jam on the I chord. It's unique and brilliant.

Sorry to obsess about this but I've been trying to figure out this song's structure for some time. I finally think I've understood what's going on.

Cheers!

Mark.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 18, 2018, 09:05:14 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler, with thanks to Lightnin' for the recommendation of the tune and Lindy for finding it on youtube.  The song is "Slim's Stomp", as played by John Lee Hooker using the nom de disque, Texas Slim, in 1949.  Here is it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b1L_kTyHwI

The questions on "Slim's Stomp" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did John Lee Hooker use to play the tune?
   * From :05--:12, John Lee Hooker is droning on one note and answering it with two descending notes in the bass.  Where, relative to tuning and capo placement, did he fret the two answering notes in the bass?
   * Starting at :39, John Lee Hooker hits a bend and releases it, goes down in pitch for a note, hits a lower note and returns to the second note, repeating this motif several times.  Where did he fret this passage?
   * Starting around 1:49, John Lee Hooker frets a double stop in the treble, returning to it several times and sometimes sliding down from it in pitch.  Where did he fret the two notes in the double stop?

Please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM on Wednesday, November 21.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy "Slim's Stomp".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 22, 2018, 01:04:11 PM
In an attempt to get the ball rolling on John Lee Hooker's 'Slim's Stomp' I'm going with Spanish tuning.  From :05--:12 I'm hearing him droning on the D note on the 2nd string/3rd fret and the 2 bass notes are on the 6th str/3rd fret & open 5th string. I'm not at all confident in this but at least I'm finding it fun to play!

For the section starting at 39 secs I'm hearing 5th str/10th fret, slight bend then down to 8th fret, then 10th fret 6th string returning to 8th fret/5th str.

At 1:49 I'm hearing the 2nd,3rd,4th strings fretted at 10th fret, sometimes dropping down to the 8th fret.

Initially, I thought I'd get nowhere with this and I may not have done. Would loved to have spent more time on the tune but unfortunately have to be away with work over the next few days.

All the best, Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 23, 2018, 04:34:25 AM
   * What playing position/tuning did John Lee Hooker use to play the tune? - Spanish capoed quite high at 5th or 6th fret; relative to capo I think he plays as follows:

   * From :05--:12, John Lee Hooker is droning on one note and answering it with two descending notes in the bass.  Where, relative to tuning and capo placement, did he fret the two answering notes in the bass? - 5str 3fr bend>open 6 str
   * Starting at :39, John Lee Hooker hits a bend and releases it, goes down in pitch for a note, hits a lower note and returns to the second note, repeating this motif several times.  Where did he fret this passage? - 5str 5fr bend>5str 3fr>6str 5fr>5str 3fr
   * Starting around 1:49, John Lee Hooker frets a double stop in the treble, returning to it several times and sometimes sliding down from it in pitch.  Where did he fret the two notes in the double stop? - 2str 3fr + 1str 5fr
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 24, 2018, 09:35:08 AM
Hi all,
Thanks to Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy for their responses on the John Lee Hooker puzzler, "Slim's Stomp".  Anyone care to join them?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on November 24, 2018, 10:24:43 AM
I got as far as Open G capoed up, but have a tough time hearing the various riffs.  I think the Prof is on the right track.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 25, 2018, 03:00:24 AM
Having got round to it with a guitar and better speakers than my phone at last, I?m with the Professor.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 27, 2018, 08:47:51 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the puzzler on John Lee Hooker's "Slim's Stomp" has done so by now, so I will post the answers.

For Texas Slim's (John Lee Hooker's) "Slim's Stomp":
   * His playing position was Spanish tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!  It ends up being capoed around the seventh fret on my guitar.  Of course, if John Lee was tuned to Spanish at A, it would gain him some neck and place the capo two frets lower than I had it, for I was tuned to Spanish at G.
   * From :05--:12, John Lee Hooker is hitting the open third string and then answering it, first with the third fret of the fifth string and then with the first fret of the sixth string.  Naming those notes, assuming Spanish tuned at G with no capo on, you get G for the open third string, which is the key center, Bb for the third fret of the fifth string, the bIII in the key of G, and Eb for the first fret of the sixth string, a bVI note in G.  The three notes actually form an Eb major chord, struck in this order:  3-5-R. 
   To me, this little lick is the most remarkable thing in the whole piece.  I have never heard anyone else play anything like it in Spanish tuning.  Eb major is so remote from G major, that when I first heard the lick, i had one of those "You can't get there from here!" responses.  All credit to John Lee Hooker for originality and big ears.
   * For the passage beginning at :39, Prof Scratchy nailed one way of playing it, spot on the money.  The notes are bent fifth fret of the fifth string which is then released to its unbent pitch, third fret of the fifth string, open 5th string or fifth fret of the sixth string as the Prof had it, then returning to third fret of the fifth string.  Named as scale degrees the run is #IV-IV-bIII-I-bIII.  I think this run is much easier to hear than the :05--:12 lick--it has less of the "unmoored" quality of the earlier lick.  Well done, Prof!
   * At 1:49, the double stop that John Lee Hooker is hitting in the treble is the fifth fret of the first two strings, which suggest either a IV chord or a I6 chord.

In many ways, "Slim's Stomp" reminds me of the music of Ornette Coleman.  By maintaining a steady pulse, but retaining the freedom to play phrases of different lengths and spritz on an idea as long as his fancy dictates, John Lee Hooker operates in a realm of much greater freedom than he would have if he adhered strictly to conventional blues forms of whatever stripe.  He also avoids the predictability enforced by metric regularity, knowing when the IV and V chords are going to arrive in the form, etc.  The extent of the degree of freedom within which he is operating, and his own comfort with that degree of freedom make for a really exciting take which operates in a realm of being perpetually in the "now!".

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzler, and I hope folks enjoyed "Slim's Stomp".  Thanks again, also, to Lightnin' for recommending the tune and to Lindy for finding it on youtube.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 05, 2018, 01:36:21 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is Carolina Slim's "I'll Get By Somehow".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/8U7W35-ULdQ

The questions on "I'll Get By Somehow" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Carolina Slim use to play the song?
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret the descending run he plays in the treble from :53--:55?
   * How did Carolina Slim play and fret the passage near the end of his solo, in the bass, from 1:27--1:30?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday, December 8.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy "I'll Get By Somehow".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 10, 2018, 06:34:00 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Carolina Slim puzzler, "I'll Get By Somehow"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 10, 2018, 11:38:48 AM
* What playing position/tuning did Carolina Slim use to play the song? - G standard tuned low
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret the descending run he plays in the treble from :53--:55? - 1str 3fr/1fr; 2str 3fr/1fr; 3str 3fr bend/ open
   * How did Carolina Slim play and fret the passage near the end of his solo, in the bass, from 1:27-- - against open 4str he descends on 5str 5fr/4fr/3fr 3fr; 6str 3fr



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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 10, 2018, 12:41:42 PM
I'm hearing this in G standard too and in agreement with the Prof on the descending run he plays in the treble from :53--:55.

For the descending run he plays in the treble from :53--:55, I'm also hearing this played against then open 4th string but hearing the 5th, 4th, 3rd and 2nd fret of the 5th string before the 3rd fret of the 6th string, though I find myself wanting to play the b flat on 5th string in place of the b which I think I'm hearing.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on December 13, 2018, 02:19:58 AM
Well low out of G standard and everything the Prof says.
It?s like a cross  between Lightnin and BBFuller, especially Fuller like on the turnaround.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 15, 2018, 08:57:02 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the puzzler on Carolina Slim's "I'll Get By Somehow" has done so by now, so I will post the answers.

For Carolina Slim's "I'll Get By Somehow":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!
   * The descending treble run that Carolina Slim played from :53--:55 is just as Prof Scratchy had it--third fret of the first string to first fret of the first string, to third fret of the second string to first fret of the second string, to third fret of the third string.  The run is a descending "blues scale", I-bVII-V-IV-bIII, and it sits so naturally for the left hand in G in standard tuning that it became a staple of so many players there.  All who responded had this spot on.
   * The movement in the bass from 1:27--1:30 involved droning on the open fourth string while first sliding into a unison at the fifth fret of the fifth string and then walking down the fifth string chromatically, from fifth to fourth to third to second fret, at which point the bass moves to the third fret of the sixth string.  It is a turn-around that Blind Boy Fuller utilized, as blueshome noted.

For anyone who is interested, this song strikes me as one that could be figured out by ear relatively easily.  I guess the only question is whether it appeals to you.  Thanks to Prof Scratchy, Old Man Ned and blueshome for their responses to the puzzler and I hope folks enjoyed the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 03, 2019, 09:28:01 AM
Hi all,
We haven't had a new puzzler for a little while, so I have picked one out for those of you who are interested.  It is J. T. Smith's song "Corn Whiskey Blues":  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/hXptoHQSk6w

The questions on J. T. Smith's "Corn Whiskey Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did J. T. Smith fret what he played in his intro, from :00--:05?
   * What chords does J. T. Smith play in the last two bars of his verses, naming the chords with Roman numerals?
   * Where did J. T. Smith fret the ascending/descending fill he played from 1:03--1:05?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers.  Please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Sunday, January 6.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 08, 2019, 08:46:32 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the puzzler on J. T. Smith's "Corn Whiskey Blues"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on January 08, 2019, 10:18:01 AM
So far I'm batting about .125 on these, but here I think he's in E position standard tuning and the intro run starts at 12th fret first string down to the 7th fret.  Still working on the rest.  I don't play in E much. Anyway, Funny Papa Smith is a great player.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 08, 2019, 12:31:42 PM
I'm hearing  J. T. Smith's "Corn Whiskey Blues" in E standard, about a half step sharp.
His intro, from :00--:05 goes from the 12th fret 1st and 3rd strings, down to the 7th fret and then down to the 4th fret accompanied by the open e string in the bass

I'm struggling with the chords played in the last two bars of his verses, there's something a little unusual (to my ears) that's throwing me.

The ascending/descending fill he played from 1:03--1:05 is something like on the top 4 strings:
----------0-----------
------0------2--0-------
0h1----------------1h2---
--------------------------2

Need to revisit the 3rd part of the puzzler.

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 10, 2019, 03:40:31 AM
 * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song? - E standard
   * Where did J. T. Smith fret what he played in his intro, from :00--:05? - keeps steady bass on low E string against an abbreviated E chord in the ?long A? inversion at the ninth fret (pinkie on 1str 12fr), then descending to 0xx757, then to0xx434
   * What chords does J. T. Smith play in the last two bars of his verses, naming the chords with Roman numerals? - not sure of the roman numerals, but does he just go from e to an abbreviated d7 chord with e in the bass (0xx210), then back to e? Alternatively it could be an Am or IVm he's playing here?
   * Where did J. T. Smith fret the ascending/descending fill he played from 1:03--1:05? - ???

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on January 10, 2019, 03:38:39 PM
Hi all,

I'll agree with the others about E position in std tuning.

I think the intro is basically a double stop with the 3rd and the 1st strings played at the same fret, starting with the 12th fret, then at the 7th, and then at the 4th fret. Pretty much as Old Man Ned described, only on the 12th fret position I hear Smith rocking back and forth with the 3rd and 2nd string. The open 6th string is played against the 7th and 4th fret positions, if I'm not mistaken.

I'll agree with Prof. Scratchy on the IVm chord on the ending. I hear the open 5th string on the bass. 

 | I  IVm | I ||

As for the fill, I think he starts on the 1st fret of the 3rd string; followed by the open 2nd string, then 2nd string 2nd fret; then a triplet with the open 1st string, 2nd string 2nd fret, and the ope 2nd string; followed by a hammer on from the open 3rd string to the 1st fret; and the 4th string 2nd fret.

Looking forward to hear the verdict.

Cheers,

Pan
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 12, 2019, 09:04:47 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the puzzler on J. T. Smith's "Corn Whiskey Blues"?
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 14, 2019, 09:45:53 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the J. T. Smith puzzler on "Corn Whiskey Blues" has done so, so I'll post the answers.  Here goes:

For J. T. Smith's "Corn Whiskey Blues":
   * his playing position was E position in standard tuning as every one who responded had it--well done!
   * from :00--:05, he was fretting the first and third strings first sliding into the twelfth fret on those two strings, then the seventh fret, then the fourth fret.  He articulated little slides on the third string into these target frets.  This is sort of a simplified version of a move that Charlie Patton and Frank Stokes utilized, though in their version they went to the ninth fret on the first and third strings in between the twelfth fret and the seventh fret.  Pan had J. T. Smith's move spot on--well done!
   * In the last two bars of his verses J. T. Smith rocked from a I chord to a IV minor chord in the eleventh bar, returning to the I chord for the twelfth bar.  Prof Scratchy and Pan both had this move figured right on.
   * J. T. Smith played the ascending/descending fill from 1:03--1:05 as follows: the fill starts on the + of beat one in the seventh bar of the form, with a grace note hammer to the first fret of the third string.  On beat 2 +, he went from the open second string to the second fret of the second string, on beat three, he played a triplet moving from the open first string to the second fret of the third string, and from there to the open second string.  On beat four, he played another grace note hammer to the first fret of the third string, and he resolved the run to the second fret of the fourth string on the + of beat four.  Pan had this run perfectly described, as well--excellent!

J. T. Smith seems such a thorough-going pro, a great guitarist, beautiful deep voice and original lyrics.  I hope folks enjoyed the song, and thanks to all who participated.  I'll look for another puzzler soon.
All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: rickerw on January 25, 2019, 08:03:52 PM
How to get closer to that music, that tune being a good example. Just let it out, liberated, I guess..... Ricker
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 26, 2019, 10:17:20 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is from Josh White and it is his rendition of "Silicosis Is Killing Me", from 1936.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/gd4H1rAoHkk

INTRO

I said, silicosis made a mighty bad break of me
Ow, silicosis made a mighty bad break of me
You robbed me of my youth and health, all you brought poor me was blues

Now, silicosis, you a dirty robber and a thief
Ow, silicosis, dirty robber and a thief
Robbed me of my right to live, and all you brought poor me was grief

I was there, diggin' that tunnel, for six bits a day
I was there, diggin' that tunnel, for six bits a day
Didn't know I was diggin' my own grave, silicosis eat my lungs away

I says, "Mama, mama, mama, cool my fevered head."
I says, "Mama, mama, come and cool my fevered head.
I'm gonna meet my Jesus, God knows I'll soon be dead."

Six bits I got from diggin', diggin' that tunnel hole
Six bits I got from diggin', diggin' that tunnel hole
Take me away from my baby, it sure done wrecked my soul

Now, tell all my buddies, tell all my friends you see
Now, tell all my buddies, tell all my friends you see
I'm goin' 'way up yonder, please don't weep for me
 
The questions on "Silicosis Is Killing Me" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Josh White use to play the song?
   * Describe Josh White's left hand positions in the first two bars of each verse and name the chords he plays there.
   * Where did Josh White fret the run he plays from 1:59--2:01?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses until 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday morning, January 29.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 27, 2019, 10:29:57 AM
I?m hearing Vasterpol  in E.
The first two chords are E and A at the start of the verse.
Not sure of the E fingering but I?ll guess at 000330 and A x20103
The run down is from the 3rd fret 1st string down to the 3rd fret 4th string.
Very like the run down in a Tampa Kid?s Keep on Trying iirc.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 29, 2019, 12:35:14 PM
I'm hearing this in Open E too.  I'm struggling with the chords of the first 2 bars. Fact is I struggle to hear chords behind any vocals. Any help/advice/tips in this regard would be greatly appreciated.

For the run, I'm getting something along these lines:
3w-0------------------------------
------3w-0------------------------
-------------0--1--0---------------
----------------------0--3w-3w--0
------------------------------------
------------------------------------

I've got to say. I really like Josh White's playing. For me, he's beyond Blind Boy Fuller and up there with Buddy Moss. Is that a fair assessment or am I bias?

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 30, 2019, 08:27:30 AM
  * What playing position/tuning did Josh White use to play the song? - Vestapol
   * Describe Josh White's left hand positions in the first two bars of each verse and name the chords he plays there. - Open chord E walking up via first fret of 5th string to A chord x20100 then Am (?) chord  x102xx
   * Where did Josh White fret the run he plays from 1:59--2:01? - 1str 3b>0; 2str 0; 3str 1; 4str 3b >0; 5str 2; 4str 3b x2 >0
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 02, 2019, 11:56:06 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the puzzler on Josh White's "Silicosis Is Killin' Me"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 04, 2019, 09:31:08 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the puzzlers on Josh White's "Silicosis Is Killin' Me" has done so, so I will post the answers.

For Josh White's "Silicosis Is Killin' Me":
   * His playing position/tuning was Vastapol, playing in the key of the sixth, fourth and first strings.  Everyone who responded had this right--well done!
   * In the first two bars of each verse accompaniment, Josh White played the following positions and chords in the left hand.  In the first bar, he played a I7 chord, sounding X-3-0-0-3-0, avoiding hitting the open sixth string, despite it being the root of the chord.  In the second bar, he went to a IV chord in the first half of the bar, fingered X-2-0-1-2-0, and in the second half of the bar played a IV minor chord, fingered X-1-0-1-X-0.  Prof Scratchy had the chords analyzed correctly, but had the fingering confused on the IV minor chord. 
This series of chords was a pet move of Josh White's, and he used it for a very high percentage of the religious numbers he recorded in Vastapol tuning.  In walking chromatically down the fifth string from the third fret, he starts at the bVII of the scale, giving him the I7 chord.  Resolving downward by half-step into the second fret, he gets the VI note of the scale, which is the major third of the IV chord (the root of which he frets at the first fret of the third string).  Moving to the first fret of the fifth string, he gets the bVI of the scale, which functions as the minor third of the IV chord, the root of which he continues to fret at the first fret of the third string.  If you go to the "Josh White Lyrics" thread, which has over twenty of Josh White's early religious recordings in it, I think you'll find that he used this move at some point in practically every one of those songs.
As per Old Man Ned's query for tips on how to hear chords and chordal movement that happen underneath singing, I think the best way to hear a move of the type that Josh White employed here is to listen for the descending line in the bass, on the fifth string, and suss out where it lives in the scale.  Once you figure out that the line goes bVII-VI-bVI-V, you can figure out the movement, if any, in the inner voices of the chords.  The great thing about figuring out a series of moves like this is that you only have to figure it out once, but you can use it over and over again, as Josh White, in fact, did.  Listening for where melodic runs live in a scale is also probably the best way of figuring them out, too.
   * The run that Josh White played from 1:59--2:01 was played as follows:  on the + of beat one, he played a bent third fret of the first string.  On beat two, he played a triplet, going from the open first string to the open second string to the first fret of the third string.  On beat three, he plays another triplet, going from bent third fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string to the second fret of the fifth string.  On beat four, he plays a broken triplet, hitting the bent third fret of the fourth string on beat four and the + of beat four, resolving to the open fourth string on the downbeat of the next measure.  Prof Scratchy had this run dead on--well done!

Josh White's playing at this stage of his career had tremendous finish and control.  Like Buddy Moss, he was an exceptionally clean player, and was technically spot on, pretty much at all times.  Blind Boy Fuller didn't have the same degree of polish and spiffiness in his playing, but at the same time, he seemed to me to have a greater spontaneity, looseness, liveliness, and feeling of being in the moment.  It's impossible to say who was better, because it's simply a matter of what you want to hear in a player--and for that matter, at different times you may want to hear different things.  Suffice it to say that they were all great players in their own ways!

Thanks to blueshome, Old Man Ned, and Prof Scratchy for responding to the puzzler, and I hope folks enjoyed the song.  I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 04, 2019, 02:26:07 PM
Thanks for the tips on hearing chords behind vocals John and as always the detailed explanation.
All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 17, 2019, 01:08:48 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is Lightnin' Hopkins' "Shining Moon".  Here is the song:

https://youtu.be/W1xZQqzTnY8

The questions on "Shining Moon" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lightnin' use to play the song?
   * Where did Lightnin' fret the run he played in his solo from 1:09--1:12?
   * Where did Lightnin' fret what he played from 1:18--1:22?
   * Where does Lightnin' most often fret his IV chord behind his singing?

Please use only your ears and your guitar to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses until 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, February 20.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy "Shining Moon".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on February 20, 2019, 11:31:33 AM
Lightnin' played in standard tuning, key of A.

The run from 1:09 - 1:12, a line of triplets, was fretted two possible ways:
either in open position A shape, or at the 5th fret with a E shape. Each note a
triplet eighth note except the final note.
slide into the E note, 5th fret, 2nd string      * on the beat
F# 2nd fret, first string
G  3rd fret, first string
A  5th fret first string     * on the beat
G  3rd fret, first string
E  open first or 5th fret 2nd string
D  3rd fret 2nd string     * on the beat
C  1st fret 2nd string or 5th fret 3rd string
A  2nd fret 3rd string
E  2nd fret 4th string    * on the beat

The alternative at the 5th fret would be:
slide into the E note, 5th fret, 2nd string      * on the beat
F# 7th fret, 2nd string
G  8th fret, 2nd string
A  5th fret first string      * on the beat
G  8th fret, 2nd string
E  5th fret 2nd string
D  7th fret 3rd string      * on the beat
C  5th fret 3rd string
A  7th fret 4th string
E  7th fret 5th string      * on the beat

From 1:18 - 1:22,
Hammer from E open 6th string to F# 2nd fret 6th string
A open 5th string, let it ring   * on the beat
A 2nd fret 3rd string         
C 5th fret 3rd string      * on the beat
sixteenth note triplet:
D 3rd fret 2nd string slide to Eb 4th fret 2nd string hammer to E 5th fret 2nd string
 possibly the line above is 2 hammer ons
G  3rd fret, first string     * on the beat
A  5th fret first string
G  3rd fret, first string
E  5th fret 2nd string     * on the beat
D  3rd fret 2nd string
C  5th fret 3rd string
A  2nd fret 3rd string      * on the beat

Behind his singing, Lightnin' fretted the IV chord with the F# in the bass and
didn't play the 1st string, like this:
x
1
2
0
0
2
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 20, 2019, 01:53:39 PM
Lightnin's "Shining Moon" I'm hearing in A standard:

   * Where did Lightnin' fret the run he played in his solo from 1:09--1:12?
-----------3----5--3
-3slide5-----5-------5---3---1
----------------------------------2
-------------------------------------2
--------------------------------------
---------------------------------------

   * Where did Lightnin' fret what he played from 1:18--1:22?
---------------------0--3--5--3-------------
--------------1--3----------------5--3--1---
-----------2--------------------------------2
----------------------------------------------
-------0-------------------------------------
-0h2-----------------------------------------

   * Where does Lightnin' most often fret his IV chord behind his singing?
D7 at the neck 6th str, 2nd fret; 4th str open; 3rd str,2nd fret; 2nd str,1st fret.

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 21, 2019, 10:57:53 AM
Haven?t had time to sit down with this one, but I love Lightnin?s playing in A. Wish he?d done more of it. I?m in agreement with Ned?s answer (I think -without benefit of guitar to hand)!


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 21, 2019, 11:47:56 PM
I?m with Ned.
I?ve attempted playing this song over the years.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 22, 2019, 06:11:56 AM
Hi all,
Thanks for all of the responses so far.  For those who have responded, check your answers to the question about Lightnin's IV chord, especially what he plays in the fifth and sixth bars of each verse.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 22, 2019, 07:17:09 AM
For the IV chord x04535?


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Norfolk Slim on February 22, 2019, 01:39:24 PM
554535?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on February 22, 2019, 03:11:42 PM
Wow, hard to hear the IV chord with the bass playing in there too. I think maybe:
x
3
5
4
x
x
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 23, 2019, 11:36:11 AM
On more listening, is he fingering it around
0
3
5
4
X
5

Not always using the open E, but it's there if he feels like it?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Pan on February 23, 2019, 03:22:05 PM
How about an  X-0-4-5-5-5?

Great tune from Lightnin'!

Cheers

Pan
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on February 23, 2019, 03:57:45 PM
I think most of the regulars have responded so I don't think this is a spoiler, and I may not be around during the week when you provide your transcription Johnm.

Lightnin' played Shinin' Moon on a TV show around 1970, a video of which is included and taught by Ernie Hawkins in his Guitar Workshop lesson on Lightnin'. He definitely developed the arrangement somewhat in the almost 20 years between these two, so not what he does here exactly. Per Ernie, and readily visible, he fingers xx45x5, strumming on the down beat (damping the 2nd string), and then on the 3rd beat slides his thumb up from the 3rd to 5th frets on the 5th and 6th strings to complete the chord as 5545x5. He clearly had not added the slide up in the bass at the time of this earlier recording, but anyone who plays the song will want to see the video for some more ideas. He adds a quick IV in the second measure, with the same bass slide, and utilizes the repeating hammer-on from the open G to the A extensively at the intro and elsewhere.

I never really worked this one up, so thanks for bringing my attention to it again Johnm. I've been playing out more and this would be a fun one to play. And it's a good example of how a player develops a performance over time, which is something you have posted about in the past Johnm. I particularly think the addition of the quick IV is interesting, and wonder if Lightnin' used it in earlier recordings or if it is something he picked up in the 50s-60s?

Lighnin's clip is at the beginning of the video.

https://youtu.be/vLemj5LjnjY

Wax
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 01, 2019, 09:47:25 AM
Hi all,
There haven't been any recent responses to the Lightnin' Hopkins puzzler on "Shining Moon", so I'll post the answers.

For Lightnin' Hopkins' "Shining Moon":
   * His playing position was A in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * Lightnin' fretted the run he played in his solo from 1:09--1:12 as follows:  He began the run on beat two of the measure playing a triplet that begins with a slide to the fifth fret of the second string, going from there to the third and then the fourth fret of the first string.  On beat three, he played another triplet, going from the fifth fret of the first string to the third fret of the first string followed by either the open first string or the fifth fret of the second string.  On beat four, he played another triplet, going from the third fret of the second string to either the first fret of the second string and the second fret of the third string, or possibly played the middle note of that triplet at the fifth fret of the third string.  He concluded the run hitting the downbeat of the next measure at the second fret of the fourth string.
   * From 1:18--1:22 Lightnin' fretted the following run:  He begins the run on the + of beat four in the ninth bar of the form, doing a thumb hammer at the second fret of the sixth string after striking the open sixth string. In the tenth bar of the form, on 1 + he goes from the open fifth string to the second fret of the third string.  On beat two, he plays a triplet starting at the first fret of the second string, going from there to a grace note slide into the fourth fret of the second string, and from there to the third fret of the first string.  On beat three, he plays a triplet going from the fourth fret of the first string to the fifth fret of the first string and from there to the third fret of the first string.  On beat four, he plays another triplet, going from the open first string to the third fret of the second string, followed by the first fret of the second string, landing on the second fret of the third string on the downbeat of the eleventh bar of the form.
   * Lightnin' most often fretted his IV chord under his singing, in the fifth and sixth bars of his form, at 5-5-4-5-X-5, using a sort of B7 position from the base of the neck moved up three frets, with either his thumb fretting both fifth and sixth strings at the fifth fret, or just the sixth string, or neither, in which case, he would have been using his second or middle finger to mash down and fret both the sixth and fifth strings.  The fingering that Prof Scratchy suggested, 0-4-5-3-5, from the fifth to the first string, is one that was used by other Texas and Oklahoma players, most notably J. T. Smith and Lil Son Jackson.  What struck me about Lightnin's sound on his IV chord in the fifth and sixth bars of the form is that he never once sounds his B or second string, either open, at the third fret or at the fifth fret, all places he might plausibly have chosen to sound it.  Instead, he neither fretted nor sounded the string.

Thanks to all who responded to the puzzler.  Lightin' was sure great.  I will look for another puzzler to post soon.  Incidentally, the post from waxwing that precedes this one was a spoiler when it was originally posted, so I waited until the puzzler had been answered to put it up on the board.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 18, 2019, 12:09:50 PM
Hi all,
We haven't had a new puzzler for a while,  I've found one--Jimmy Murphy's "Electricity".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/XW-6cq9hhAc

The questions on "Electricity" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jimmy Murphy use to play the song?
   * Describe the bar structure and chord progression, in Roman numerals of Jimmy Murphy's first two solos.

INTRO

Well, you can't see elecitricity a-movin' on the line
How in the world can you doubt it, when you can see it shine?
When you get Salvation, the current, you can feel
You won't have to have nobody, to tell you that it's real

SOLO

Some people don't know the music when they hear it in the air
Some people, they don't know God, when they kneel down in prayer
But let me tell you something and I'm not a-gonna tell you wrong
When you get Salvation, you'll know it by its tone

Well, you can't see elecitricity a-movin' on the line
How in the world can you doubt it, when you can see it shine?
When you get Salvation, now the current, you can feel
You won't have to have nobody, to tell you that it's real

SOLO

Some people don't believe in religion, they think it's all a fake
It's just as real, people, as eating a T-bone steak
It's as sweet as any honey that any bee could make
With a good old sugar molasses and a great big chocolate cake

Well, you can't see elecitricity a-movin' on the line
How in the world can you doubt it, when you can see it shine?
When you get Salvation, now the current you can feel
You won't have to have nobody, to tell you that it's real

SOLO

This old-time Salvation, He gave to me and you
I'm a-feasting on the mountain, like Jesus told me to
I'm a-drinking from God's fountain, that flows from up on high
I'm a-feasting on the mountain where God's fountain won't run dry

Well, you can't see elecitricity a-movin' on the line
How in the world can you doubt it, when you can see it shine?
When you get Salvation, now the current you can feel
You won't have to have nobody, to tell you that it's real

Please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, March 21.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 22, 2019, 01:30:52 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the puzzler on Jimmy Murphy's "Electricity"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 22, 2019, 03:00:07 PM
What a fantastic number! I have never heard of Jimmy Murphy, will have to seek him out.

It's in Vestapol, sort of reminiscent of "Knoxville Blues" and Doc Watson's version of "Train That Carried My Girl From Town."

I'm bad at writing out bar structures, hopefully this is right:

I / / / | IV / I / | I / I / / | II / V / |
I / / / | IV / III / | IV / I / | V (implied) / I

Chris

Edited to fix a couple things.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 25, 2019, 11:56:40 AM
I agree with what banjochris says! I wonder if he played always in Vestapol? The photo accompanying the video, illustrating his capo placement, leads me to think he maybe always did!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 29, 2019, 03:33:35 PM
Hi all,
There have been no responses on the Jimmy Murphy puzzler, "Electricity", in several days, so I'll post the answers.

For Jimmy Murphy's "Electricity":
   * The playing position/tuning was Vestapol, as banjochris and Prof Scratchy had it.  Re Prof's surmise that Jimmy Murphy may have played everything in Vestapol, I thought that was the case, but wasn't sure, so I listened to every track of his that I could find on youtube.  All of his cuts from the '50s were played in Vestapol, and I only found two later-recorded Gospel numbers, one called "Half a Loaf of Bread" and I can't remember the title of the other, in which E position in standard tuning was used, and D in standard tuning was used (though I think the D standard tuning guitar may not have been played by Jimmy Murphy himself).  Chris, you may have heard Mike Seeger play on his old Vanguard album "You Live A Long, Long Time To Get Old", a great Jimmy Murphy number with really sardonic lyrics, which I transcribed many moons ago in the Country Blues Lyrics board, at: https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=2183.msg16889#msg16889.
   * The progression of Jimmy Murphy's first two solos was as Chris had it.  Jimmy Murphy's approach to playing in Vestapol in the left hand was similar to that of Doug Quattlebaum.  Both players favored barre chords over the little three -finger chords at the base of the neck.

Thanks to banjochris and Prof Scratchy for participating, and I'll look for another puzzler to post sometime.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 22, 2019, 02:48:15 PM
Hi all,
It's been a while since we've had a new puzzler, and I have one now for those of you who are interested.  It is from Lonzie Thomas, and it is his version of "A Hard Pill To Swallow".  Here is Lonzie's version of the song:

https://youtu.be/-q9ZMNTDMhk

The questions on Lonzie Thomas's "A Hard Pill To Swallow" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lonzie Thomas use to play the song?
   * In the course of his rendition, Lonzie Thomas never frets a note higher on the neck than the ____ fret. (Fill in the blank.)

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, April 25.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 25, 2019, 08:33:02 AM

* What playing position/tuning did Lonzie Thomas use to play the song? - I'll say EAEGBE tuning, tuned quite low.
* In the course of his rendition, Lonzie Thomas never frets a note higher on the neck than the _4th___ fret. (Fill in the blank.)


Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on April 25, 2019, 12:57:58 PM
This is a terrific tune. Lonzie Thomas is new to me but I just want to hear more of his playing after hearing this. I'm swithering between E standard tuned a step low and Prof Scratchy's posting of EAEGBE.

I thought E standard at first, but then at about 3:42, to me it sounds like an E chord and the strings all sound open, not fretted. I can't decide. Can I sit on the fence? No, for now I'll go with my initial feeling of E standard.

I'm not getting anything above the 3rd fret though (1st string bent so sounding higher?)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on April 26, 2019, 01:08:45 AM
Cross note tuning was my first guess but relistening I will go with the Prof.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 27, 2019, 04:10:27 AM
Phil, you never learn! I?m expecting a 100% fail rate on this!


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on April 28, 2019, 12:39:30 AM
I?m the one with the tin ear......
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 29, 2019, 09:33:44 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the puzzler on Lonzie Thomas's "Hard Pill to Swallow"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 03, 2019, 09:35:17 AM
Hi all,
It appears that all of the responses are in for the Lonzie Thomas puzzler on "Hard Pill To Swallow", so I'll post the answers.

For Lonzie Thomas's "Hard Pill To Swallow":
   * His playing position/tuning was cross-note tuning.  As you listen to the song, you can hear the first fret hammer on the third string to the major third of the I chord, and it's apparent that the I note is the open sixth string and the open first string.  This puts Lonzie in either E position, standard tuning, EAEGBE tuning or cross-note.  Lonnie never hits anything on his fourth string except a I note, and that note is never inflected, either hammered into, pulled off into, or bent, so it seems safe to assume that it is an open string since that would make the left hand so much easier than having to hold down the second fret of that string down for the duration of the song.  This eliminates E position in standard tuning as a possibility, leaving EAEGBE and cross-note in the running.  Lonzie never hits anything lower than a V note on his fifth string, and never plays a low IV note in the bass at all--in the instances in which he implies a IV chord, he always hits a VI note, the third of the IV chord in the bass.  Since EAEGBE makes an open string IV note available in the bass, and that note never gets played in the course of the song, what it suggests is that the V note on the fifth string is an open string, and the VI note that is occasionally played on the fifth string lives at the second fret of the fifth string, where it is commonly fretted in Vestapol and cross-note tuning.  Since Vestapol was eliminated from the running early on, that leaves the piece in cross-note tuning.  You had it, Phil--you should have stood your ground!
   * In the course of his rendition, Lonzie Thomas never frets a note on the neck higher than the third fret, as Old Man Ned had it.  In fact, the piece is a model of economy in the left hand, with the only fretting in the course of the song occurring at the second fret of the fifth string, the second and first frets of the third string, the third and second frets of the second string and the third and second frets of the first string.  I haven't really tried to play the piece, but I think it will--it lays out beautifully.  I love the way Lonzie Thomas played time, with intermittent notes in the bass and sort of built-in pauses in his phrasing.
I believe Lonzie Thomas has three or possibly four songs on the George Mitchell collection on Fat Possum, but he actually recorded about an album's worth of songs for George Mitchell which can be purchased from Fat Possum.  I think he was one of George Mitchell's really stellar discoveries, a wonderful singer and player with a very distinctive and original style.  It's worth picking up everything he recorded.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy, Old Man Ned, and blueshome for responding to the puzzler, and I hope that folks enjoyed the song.  I'll look for another puzzler to post before too long.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 11, 2019, 12:11:19 PM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is Charles Caldwell's "I Got Something To Tell You".  Here is the song:

https://youtu.be/CCxKPknbwjs

The questions on Charles Caldwell's "I Got Something To Tell You" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Charles Caldwell use to play the song?
   * Which of the three chords, I, IV or V, usually played in blues is altogether omitted from "I Got something To Tell You"?
   * Charles Caldwell does virtually all of his singing over what chord?

Please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, May 14.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 15, 2019, 01:40:43 PM
I'm hearing Charles Caldwell's "I Got Something To Tell You" in A standard with the V chord omitted and singing over the IV chord.
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on May 16, 2019, 03:59:16 AM
Hello-
Nice choice of songs John. It sounds like Caldwell is playing out of A position in standard tuning (alternating between a long A and an A7). He sings over his IV chord- D7, and he does not play a V chord at all.

I liked this album a lot when it came out.

Take care
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 16, 2019, 07:59:29 AM
Agree with Ned and Forgetful!


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on May 17, 2019, 12:16:10 AM
What he said.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 20, 2019, 09:02:40 AM
Hi all,
It appears that all of the responses are in on the Charles Caldwell puzzler, "I Got Something To Tell You", so I'll post the answers.

For Charles Caldwell's "I Got Something To Tell You":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning
   * He never played a V chord
   * Virtually all of his singing was done over the IV chord.

From Old Man Ned's initial response to blueshome's final one, not a single participant set a false foot in answering the questions.  Well done!  I sure like Charles Caldwell's musical gravitas, he always sounded like he meant what he was playing and singing and not just fooling around.  Thanks to those who participated and I'll look for another puzzler to post soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Rivers on June 07, 2019, 06:22:36 PM
Wow. I had not heard him (or 'of him') before. Obviously he was influenced by Ry Cooder's tone (<-joking). Brilliant sound, love the vocal vibrato.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on June 07, 2019, 07:54:39 PM
Caldwell's playing and singing reminds me so much of Robert Belfour and that Mississippi hill country "pulse music" - in fact I need to go look Caldwell up, where he is from... is it Mississippi?  also...

It's Friday, and I admit I've had a few pops, and feeling sentimental, but I think it is so great, and too cool, that our resident pro, is really into hill country music.  I know of no other pro whose 'musical gravitas', so enthuses about 2 chord songs.... and this genre! 

Thank you John Miller!

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on June 07, 2019, 07:58:00 PM
Yes!  I'm finally getting it.

Charles W. Caldwell (May 18, 1943 ? September 3, 2003)[1][2][3] was an American musician from Mississippi, known for a raw and fiery brand of electric North Mississippi hill country blues.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 09, 2019, 05:31:16 PM
Thanks for the good words, John D!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 10, 2019, 09:58:16 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is from Willie Trice, and it is his version of "Shine On".  Here is Willie's performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/nEXSWG6xjjw

The questions about Willie Trice's "Shine On" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Trice use to play the song?
   * What is the length, in bars, of his form, and where is the form long, as compared to the norm for such songs?
   * What two chords did Willie Trice play in the seventh bar of the form?

Please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, June 13, and please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answers.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Rivers on June 13, 2019, 01:43:24 PM
Here's what I've got.

 * What playing position/tuning did Willie Trice use to play the song?

1st position E, standard tuning

* What is the length, in bars, of his form, and where is the form long, as compared to the norm for such songs?

It's an 8 bar blues long by one bar. He's long in the 7th bar taking the familiar 8 bar form out to 9 bars.

 * What two chords did Willie Trice play in the seventh bar of the form?
 
Firstly, the one chord E in a second position inversion, I think 4-x-2-4-0-4,
Second, descending to the five chord B7/5, 2-x-1-2-0-2
...resolving back at the one in first position
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 15, 2019, 08:22:30 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the puzzler on Willie Trice's "Shine On"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 15, 2019, 11:51:25 AM
I'm mostly in agreement with Rivers. E standard and one bar long. But I was thinking a C#7 4 4 3 4 2 4 before it goes down to the B7 in the 7th bar.
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 16, 2019, 06:46:48 AM
I agree with Rivers and Ned, though I think the mystery chord is x43404.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on June 17, 2019, 06:03:19 AM
Key of E. Extra beats after the A chord. The ?mystery chord? would seem to be the B7 moved up 2 frets.
Some of the moves are very reminiscent of Buddy Moss.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on June 21, 2019, 01:29:13 AM
I agree with all the above on standard tuning in E and an 8 bar form hanging on the I chord to make it long.
I think it's the 4th fret on the 4th string and 3rd on the 3rd string then open top string (x x 4 3 x x 0, an E shape moved up 2 frets)  before the  x 2 1 x x 2 for the B7. Nice.
 
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Rivers on June 21, 2019, 01:12:30 PM
well, someone gotta be right...!  :P
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 21, 2019, 01:16:08 PM
You would hope so, wouldn't you!  :-)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 22, 2019, 09:11:49 AM
Hi all,
The Willie Trice puzzler on "Shine On" has been up for a good while now and has generated several responses, so I'll post the answers.

For Willie Trice's "Shine On":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as every response had it.  Well done!
   * His form for "Shine On" was nine bars long, for a lyric and melody that would normally be phrased in eight bars.  Blueshome had the long place in Willie Trice's form accurately spotted--it is the fifth bar, where he resolves to a musically extraneous bar of the I chord.  In such songs, the vocal phrase for the last four bars normally starts in the tail end of the fourth bar, the second bar of the IV chord.  Willie Trice finishes up his IV chord, adds the extra bar of I, and starts singing the final phrase in the tail end of that measure.  His phrasing is not "wrong", but it is specific to him.
   * The two chords that Willie Trice played in the seventh bar of the form are an F#7 (II7) and a B7 (V7).  Doing it this way, he gets a II-V- I resolution, going from the seventh bar to the eighth bar, a sound that Carl Martin and Little Hat Jones also employed in E.  Joe paul had the F#7 properly identified.  One of the neat things about doing the F#7 in this context is that the seventh of the chord ends up being the open first string, so you can do a thumb-wrapped F leaving the first string open and move it up one fret and you have the chord (though Willie Trice never sounds the second fret of the sixth string).

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope folks enjoyed "Shine On".  I'll look for another song to post soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 15, 2019, 10:35:51 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  The cut is "Sweetest Apple On The Tree", featuring singer Brooks Berry, accompanied by Scrapper Blackwell on guitar, from their duo album that was released on Prestige-Bluesville.  Here is the track:

https://youtu.be/DMijG1wet-M

INTRO

Used to be, sweetest apple on the tree
Used to be, sweetest apple on the tree
Hey, hey, baby, you ain't what you used to be

You had a nail, and you drove it in the board
You had a nail, and you drove it in the board
Lord, my daddy ain't here, but he's somewheres on the road

I woke up this morning with the same thing on my mind
I woke up this morning with the same thing on my mind
I had blues and trouble and was worried all the time

Lord, my heart struck sorrow, and my tears come rolling down
Lord, then my heart struck sorrows, and my tears come rolling down
I'm gonna buy me a ticket and beat it for another town

I went to the bus station, and I looked up on the board
I went to the bus station, I looked up on the board
Lord, and your bus ain't here, but it's further on down the road

I sat by my window, looked through the window pane
I sat by my window, and looked through the window pane
Lord, the tears from my eyes, just like drops of rain

OUTRO

The questions on "Sweetest Apple On The Tree" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Scrapper Blackwell use to play the song?
   * Where did Scrapper fret what he plays in the treble from :27--:30, and what chord does it make, relative to his tuning?
   * Where is Scrapper fretting and playing the triplet figure he plays from 1:35--1:46?
   * Where did Scrapper fret and play the descending harmonized lines from 4:04-4:06

Please use only your ears and your guitar to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, July 18.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the song and figuring out your answers, whether or not you choose to post them.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 19, 2019, 10:01:46 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Brooks Berry/Scrapper Blackwell puzzler, "Sweetest Apple On The Tree"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 20, 2019, 02:50:55 AM
The questions on "Sweetest Apple On The Tree" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Scrapper Blackwell use to play the song? - E standard tuned low
   * Where did Scrapper fret what he plays in the treble from :27--:30, and what chord does it make, relative to his tuning? - 02x132 (don’t know the name of the chord - he seems to hammer onto the first fret of the third string, followed by open sixth, then second fret first string followed by seventh note on third fret of second string)
   * Where is Scrapper fretting and playing the triplet figure he plays from 1:35--1:46?  - this sounds like a Lightnin Hopkins E inversion on the seventh fret of the third and first strings and the fifth fret of the second string.
   * Where did Scrapper fret and play the descending harmonized lines from 4:04 - 4.06 - sounds like he pinches fourth fret of strings 6 and3, descending chromatically via fret 3 to fret2. After each pinch he brushes upwards on open strings 1 and 2. At the of this series he goes back to first position E.




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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on July 20, 2019, 09:59:13 AM
For "Sweetest Apple On The Tree" I'm hearing playing position/tuning as E standard about a step low

Fretting what Scrapper plays in the treble from :27--:30 as
2
3
1
2?
2?
0
not sure if he's holding the E and/or B on the 4th and 5th strings, but I would call this an E9


Scrapper fretting and playing the triplet figure he plays from 1:35--1:46 at
7
5
7
x
x
0
   
and the the descending harmonized lines from 4:04-4:06
4th fret for 6th and 3rd string walking down through 3rd to 2nd fret, hitting open first\second strings, resolving to a standard E chord with a wee hammer on to the 3rd string 1st fret.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on July 21, 2019, 12:48:20 AM
I got as far as deciding for E standard tuned low and the E9 chord  but no further, but on relistening, agree with the others.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 23, 2019, 06:39:11 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Brooks Berry/Scrapper Blackwell puzzler on "Sweetest Apple On The Tree"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 26, 2019, 09:29:55 AM
Hi all,
It looks like everyone who intended to respond to the Brooks Berry/Scrapper Blackwell puzzler has done so, so I'll post the answers.

For Brooks Berry and Scrapper Blackwell's "Sweetest Apple On The Tree":
   * Scrapper's playing position was E in standard tuning (tuned low), as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * From :27--:30, Scrapper fretted 1-3-2 on his first three strings, going from the third string to the first, playing an E9.  Prof Scratchy identified the position correctly, as did Old Man Ned, and Ned and blueshome had the chord named correctly.  It is a ninth chord by virtue of having a major third on the third string, the seventh on the second string, and a II note on the first string, which because the seventh is present in the chord, is designated a ninth.
   * Scrapper fretted the triplet figure he played from 1:35--1:46 on the first three strings, at 7-0-7, going from third string to first string, and played the triplets striking those three strings in the following order:  first string--third string--second string.  Doing it this way, he gets an interesting sound, because he is playing a higher-pitched note on the third string, seventh fret, than he is on the open second string, and that sound of playing a higher-pitched note on a lower string gives a distinctive timbre to the triplet.
   * Scrapper fretted and played the harmonized descending lines from 4:04--4:06 on the fifth and third strings, starting with the fifth string at the fourth fret and the third string at the third fret, probably fretting the fifth string with his second finger and the third string with his index finger, moving that shape down one fret intact, to 3-2, then moving down one more fret intact to 2-1, ending up in an E chord.  Little Hat Jones employed a similar move in some of his E blues, as did Carl Martin.

Scrapper continued to play so well on this album and on the solo album he recorded for Art Rosenbaum that came out on Prestige-Bluesville.  His time on this track is so lovely and settled at a very slow, medium tempo which can be hard to keep where you put it.  I love Brooks Berry's singing, too--she sounds like a blues singer rather than a gospel singer singing blues.

Thanks to Prof Scratchy, Old Man Ned and blueshome for participating and I hope folks enjoyed the song and the puzzler.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 17, 2019, 09:58:29 AM
Hi all,
It has been a while since we've had a puzzler, and I've chosen a new one, Smith Casey's "Santa Fe Blues".  Smith Casey was an inmate at a Texas prison who was recorded by John Lomax and Ruby Terrill Lomax.  Here is "Santa Fe Blues":

https://youtu.be/WCIJqG0UDpo

The questions on "Santa Fe Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Smith Casey use to play the song?
   * Where did Smith Casey fret the bent note and and the two higher-pitched answering notes in the treble from :04--:08?
   * Where did Smith Casey fret the opening of his solo, from :22--:25?
   * Where did Smith Casey play the notes he is playing in the treble from :30--:35?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, August 21.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy Smith Casey's "Santa Fe Blues".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 22, 2019, 09:15:02 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Smith Casey puzzler, "Santa Fe Blues"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 22, 2019, 09:34:38 AM
I have to say I've tried all kinds of tunings and capo positions to work this out, but I'm ready to admit defeat on this one! What a colossal performance though. Looking forward to the answers.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 22, 2019, 01:01:51 PM
I'm struggling with this one too. I've yet to even figure out if it's in standard or open tuning. I find myself wanting to ask him to slow down a bit. Normally this would drive me nuts, but I'm finding something strangely hypnotic about this tune. I'll keep plugging away till the answers posted and hopefully follow this post up with a reply that's a bit more constructive :-)

All the best, Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: daddystovepipe on August 22, 2019, 03:26:54 PM
I looked at this one a long long time ago.
To me he's playing in drop D position but tuned way down to Bb. 
The usual drop D forms work well then. 
First string 5th fret, second string 6th fret bend, adding the first string 7th fret.
You get a nice dissonant when going to the IV chord G, with the third string 3rd fret against the open second string.
The solo up high is a the long A chord half bar at the 7th fret with rocking between frets 8 and 10 for the first string.


Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 24, 2019, 06:43:52 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Smith Casey "Santa Fe Blues" puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: lindy on August 27, 2019, 09:30:10 AM
After taking your excellent classes at Port Townsend earlier this month, John, I promised myself that I would make an effort to figure out some of these tunes.

I initally came to the same conclusion as Daddystovepipe, but I wasn't confident enough in my skills to say so out loud. So now I'll ride on his coattails and also vote for dropped D tuned low. I'll also agree with his assessment of chord shapes, but it's hard for me to decide if they're in the 7-8-10th fret position or higher, considering the low tuning.

Lindy
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 27, 2019, 10:20:51 AM
I think daddystovepipe has it. I haven’t tried this out, but all of the ideas fit. My favourite part of this piece is the way he walks (crashes) into the IV chord. It’s the most compelling train piece I’ve heard on guitar. Wonderful.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 28, 2019, 11:46:52 AM
Hi all,
I think I'll post the answers on Smith Casey's "Santa Fe Blues".  Here they are:

For Smith Casey's "Santa Fe Blues":
   * His playing position was D in standard tuning.  He never plays a low D from the beginning to the end of his rendition, always either living on the open fifth string when playing in D or alternating between the open fifth and fourth strings.  Moreover, he consistently voices his IV chord, G, with a low root in the bass, and in standard tuning that note is put at the third fret of the sixth string, where it sits very naturally with what he plays in the treble in his G chord.
   * In the passage from :04--:08, Smith Casey is bending the 6th fret of the second string up almost a half-step and then going to the fifth fret of the first string, followed by a repeat of the bend, then going to the seventh fret of the first string.
   * For the the opening of his solo, from :22--:25, Smith Casey takes a "long A" shape up the neck with an index finger barre of the first four strings at the seventh fret and the little finger fretting the tenth fret of the first string, exactly as Daddy Stovepipe had it.
   * In the treble, from :32--:35, Smith Casey is playing his G chord, going from a grace note third fret of the third string to the open second string, then moving from the open first string to the third fret of the second string and back to the open first string.

I think this is a wonderful piece, and quite agree with Prof Scratchy that a high point is the way Smith Casey dropped a bomb, hitting that sharply accented #IV note of the IV chord when he transitions to the IV chord.  I think it's also remarkable the extent to which the playing is simultaneously very free-sounding and very controlled.  Smith Casey really was a master.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope folks enjoyed the song.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 27, 2019, 09:36:29 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is "Been In The Army Since 1941" by Lawyer "Soldier Boy" Houston.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/efA9ioTgl1s

The questions on "Been In The Army Since 1941" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lawyer Houston use to play the song?
   * As Lawyer Houston begins the piece, what note of the scale is he playing in the bass with his thumb, and on what string and what fret is he playing it?
   * For Lawyer Houston's guitar interlude from 1:50--1:55, he opens up playing what note in the bass?  Where on the neck is he playing it?
   * True or False:  Lawyer Houston never plays a IV or V chord in the course of the song.

INTRO

Says, I been in the Army, since nineteen and forty-one
Well, I've been in the Army, since nineteen and forty-one
When the Japanese got Pearl Harbor, they issued me a Thompson sub-caliber machine gun

Well, I was in love with a woman, and her name is Ernestine
Well, I was in love with a woman, and her name is Ernestine
She is the most loveliest woman, that I have ever seen

She lives out in California, but Ft. Worth, Texas is her home
She lives out in California, but Ft. Worth, Texas is her home
Said, I still love that woman, that's why I composed this song

GUITAR INTERLUDE

She once have been my wife, but now she's married to another man
Yes, she once have been my wife, but now she's married to another man
She dealt me an ace-high straight, but I did not play my hand

Nineteen and forty-three I went to the Philippines, came back in nineteen and forty-five
Nineteen and forty-three I went to the Philippines, came back in nineteen and forty-five
I only live for that woman, that's why I'm still alive

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, September 30.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 01, 2019, 08:16:38 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the puzzler on Lawyer Houston's "Been In The Army since 1941"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on October 01, 2019, 09:50:52 PM
I started trying to play this very briefly yesterday, and now posting after listening to the whole thing, and no guitar in hand.

Key of E, standard tuning.
Opening bass note G#, 4th fret 6th string.
For the guitar interlude, I think he is playing the same G# as above.
True, no IV or V chord.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 02, 2019, 01:44:48 AM
I find these one chord songs the hardest to figure out. It does sound like he’s playing in the key of E, but maybe not in standard tuning. The overall feel reminds me of Li Son Jackson, so I wondered if he could be in G6 tuning, tuned low - but that’s just a guess.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 02, 2019, 01:30:49 PM
I was wrestling with this one last night and sounds like it got me in the same hold as Prof Scratchy. I've been swithering between E or G in, despite tinkering about with my low strings, I'm going for standard tuning in E.

Really not sure about the bass note....a dampened E on the 6th string at the start and a dampened B(?) on the 6 string for the interlude. Agree, no IV or V chord. Only confident about the last answer though.

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 02, 2019, 06:28:26 PM
Hi all,
My apologies to those who have already posted on the puzzler--I had a misprint in the third question which I have since corrected.  I had the guitar interlude starting at 1:40, and it actually starts at 1:50.  At least the question will make more sense now.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on October 04, 2019, 03:30:12 AM
Not really sure but I felt it had a cross note feel.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 06, 2019, 11:46:00 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Lawyer Houston puzzler, "Been In The Army Since 1941"?
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 08, 2019, 09:01:37 AM
Hi all,
It looks as though everyone who intended to respond to the puzzler on Lawyer Houston's "Been In The Army Since 1941" has done so, so I will post the answers now.

For Lawyer "Soldier Boy" Houston's "Been In The Army Since 1941":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as Dave and Old Man Ned had it.
   * As he begins the song, Lawyer Houston is hitting a IV note in the bass.  Playing in E position in standard tuning, that would be an A note, which he hit on the open fifth string.  One of the peculiarities of the song is that pretty much from beginning to the end of his rendition, he hits that IV note on the downbeats of measures, going to the open sixth string I note for weaker beats.
   * At the beginning of his guitar interlude, at 1:50, Lawyer Houston is hitting a bVII note in the bass, D, and getting it on the open fourth string.  It's apparent that his strategy for the body of the song was simply to hit open strings in the bass on the sixth, fifth and fourth strings, and reserve fretting for melodic passages only.  This approach also made it possible for Houston to free-hand everything in the left hand and avoid playing and holding down chords in the left hand altogether.
   * It is true, as everyone had it, that Lawyer Houston never hits a IV or V chord in the course of the rendition.

Lawyer Houston's rhythmic feel is different than that of R. L. Burnside, but the droniness of his approach and almost complete lack of chordal information is similar to that of Burnside and other Hill Country players.  Houston was from Texas, I believe, and Lil' Son Jackson's sound in DGDGBE tuning also somewhat anticipated the Hill Country sound.  It's entirely possible that the Hill Country sound was already happening in the late '40s or early '50s, but just didn't get recorded much, though John Lee Hooker and Dr. Ross both anticipated that sound, too, and were from Mississippi.  And I would guess that Fred McDowell was already playing with that kind of sound, too, at that time.

Thanks to those who participated in the puzzler, and I hope folks enjoyed the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 09, 2019, 08:57:05 AM
Hi all,
We haven't had a puzzler for a while and I have a new one for folks who are interested.  It is "Blues For Mattie Mae" by Lattie Murrell.  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/yE7lDg1aVw0

The questions on "Blues For Mattie Mae" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lattie Murrell use to play the song?
   * Describe how what Lattie Murrell frets at :45--:46 helps identify his tuning/playing position.
   * Where does Lattie Murrell fret what he plays from 1:49--1:52?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, November 12.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 13, 2019, 08:09:40 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Lattie Murrell puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 13, 2019, 01:46:21 PM
To get the ball rolling, though I've only had around 10 minutes on this, I would say E standard, identified by what I hear as 'hammer ons' the 5th and 4th strings at 45:46 mark. Should get a bit more time over the next couple of days to revisit and figure out the last question and possibly change my mind on what I've put above :-)
All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on November 13, 2019, 04:38:09 PM
Agree with Ned, and just listening without a guitar in hand I would say that the bit from 1:49-1:52 is the 8th fret of the 2nd string, bent, along with the open 1st string.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 14, 2019, 01:16:38 AM
Yes, E standard tuned down to D, with the moves OMN and Chris have identified. Great performance.


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 17, 2019, 11:33:31 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Lattie Murrell puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 18, 2019, 04:41:49 AM
Nothing to add to what the Prof said
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 22, 2019, 09:19:59 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to respond to the Lattie Murrell puzzler has done so, so I will post the answers.

For "Blues For Mattie Mae",
   * Lattie Murrell's playing position was E position in standard tuning as every responder had it--well done!
   * What Lattie Murrell played from :45--:46 helped identify his playing position because he first played a double-rolled hammer, open-first fret-second fret on his fifth string, going from a IV note on the open string chromatically up to a V note at the second fret, and then did a double-rolled hammer on the fourth string, open-first fret-second fret, going from a bVII note on the open fourth string up chromatically to a I note at the second fret.  In the course of those two double-rolled hammers he eliminated Vestapol and cross-note as being possibilities because both of those tunings put a V note on the open fifth string, and he eliminated EAEGBE as being a possibility as well, because that tuning puts a I note on the open fourth string.  So in that two second interval, he effectively provided all of the information needed to identify his playing position as E position in standard tuning.  Old Man Ned made this point in his initial response to the puzzler.
   * Lattie Murrell fretted the section from 1:49--1:52 exactly as banjochris described it, brushing the bent eighth fret of the second string against the open first string.

Late Murrell is one of those later Mississippi players whom I wish had been recorded more.  I hope folks enjoyed the song and thanks to Old Man Ned, banjochris, Prof Scratchy and blueshome for participating.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 28, 2019, 11:49:42 AM
Hi all,
It's been a while since we've had a new puzzler, so I thought I would post one before the new year.  It is Mae Glover's "Shake it, Daddy", featuring John Byrd as her accompanist.  Here is the track:

https://youtu.be/BH5fpb5blCQ

The questions on "Shake It Daddy" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did John Byrd use to play the song?
   * Where did John Byrd fret the ascending/descending run from :05--:06?
   * Where did John Byrd fret what he played in the sixth bar of the form, from :20--:21?
   * Where did John Byrd fret the bass run he played from 2:07--2:10?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on December 31, 2019.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: mgalup on January 01, 2020, 12:01:59 PM
Hey Folks,

First, my apologies, as I originally mistakenly posted before the start time of this very thoughtful effort by Mr. Miller. Below are my attempts at the caper!

* What playing position/tuning did John Byrd use to play the song?

-Standard tuning, key of G, no capo

   * Where did John Byrd fret the ascending/descending run from :05--:06?

-B string, chromatic descending and ascending run on frets 0 through 3, interestingly with the low E opening from the fretted G

   * Where did John Byrd fret what he played in the sixth bar of the form, from :20--:21?

-for lack of a more theory-educated way to say this, it’s like a C with a G on top, only made minor-sounding by barring the first frets on the B, G, and D strings


   * Where did John Byrd fret the bass run he played from 2:07--2:10?

-Ascending riff starting on the G on 6th string, to B on A string, open D, E on D, open G, and then a little riff to close that out. Not sure if this should be more specifically the exact notes he played in entirety!

Happy New Year to all and thanks, John, for this really amazing resource!

Best,
MG
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 01, 2020, 02:52:17 PM
I’m with mgalup on the position and tuning. Interesting to hear a 12 string tuned to concert pitch for this performance. I agree too with the ascending/descending run. As for the other questions, I’m afraid my hearing aids fail me!


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Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 03, 2020, 06:50:29 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the puzzler on Mae Glover and John Byrd's "Shake It Daddy"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 03, 2020, 10:04:28 AM
Nothing to add to the others.  A great 12-string sound, on other songs he’s even higher pitched IIRC. The only other I can think of just now is Barbecue Bob.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 08, 2020, 10:24:21 AM
Hi all,
There have been no new responses to the Mae Glover/John Byrd puzzler on "Shake It Daddy", so I'll post the answers:

For "Shake It Daddy, John Byrd:
   * played the song out of G position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!
   * played the ascending/descending run at :05--:06, ascending chromatically on the second string from the open string to the third fret and then descending chromatically back to the open second string, 0-1-2-3-2-1-0, as Mark had it, and John Byrd did open up on the sixth string during the run, freeing up his third finger to fret the third fret of the second string and otherwise assigning a finger to a fret for the run, and free-handing it.  It's a very "smart hand" move.
   * fretted what he played from :20--:21 at 1-0-0-3, moving from the fourth string to the first string, left to right.  It would be possible to assign some kind of abstruse chordal designation to this combination of notes, like Eb augmented, but what he is doing is essentially going from the C major chord that precedes this chord to a C minor, with the minor third, Eb, voiced at the first fret of the fourth string.  I expect he vacated the first fret of the second string he had been fretting in the C chord and just moved his index finger over to the first fret of the fourth string, leaving his little finger fretting the third fret of the first string, where it had been in the C chord.
   * played the bass run from 2:07--2:10 like so:  Third fret of the sixth string to second fret of the fifth string, open fourth string, second fret of the fourth string, open third string, second fret of the fourth string played twice, open fourth string played twice, second fret of the fourth string, open third string, second fret of the fourth string, open fourth string, following with a big treble brush stroke of the top of a G chord.  The run covers the third measure of the form and the first three beats of the fourth measure in that verse.

I sure wish that Mae Glover and John Byrd had been recorded doing more titles together, because the ones they did were all stellar.  John Byrd was seriously under-recorded, given his level of skill and invention.  He's one of my absolute favorite 12-string guitar players in the style.

Thanks to the folks who responded to the puzzler and I hope you enjoyed the song.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 24, 2020, 11:26:34 AM
Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for those of you who are interested.  It is "Worrying Blues", by Carolina Slim (James B. Harris), a really nice Post-War player who died really young.  Here is the song:

https://youtu.be/8OmAihfTGIU

INTRO

Laid down last night, man, I couldn't take my rest
Laid down last night, man, I couldn't take my rest
My mind started rambling, like a wild geese out in the West

My baby's gone and left me, and just what's worrying me
My gal has gone and left me, man, just what's worrying me
I start blue and disgusted, worried as a man can be

SOLO

I laid down last night, I was happy as a man could be
Laid down last night, I was happy as a man could be
And all at once, you know, the blues started to worrying poor me

The questions on "Worrying Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Carolina Slim use to play the song?
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret the long ascending/descending run he plays from :11--:16?
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret what he plays from :19--:21 in the first line of the song, after the word "night"?
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret what he plays he in his solo, from 1:49--1:52?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, January 27.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the song.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 27, 2020, 08:55:48 AM
Here's what I'm hearing for Carolina Slims Worrying Blues:

 Playing position/tuning: A standard, sounds like he's tuned a whole step low
 Where did Carolina Slim fret the long ascending/descending run he plays from :11--:16?
--------3-5-3----------------------
-5-3-5-------5-3-1----------------
---------------------2-0------------
------------------------2-0---------
----------------------------3-3-3-0
-------------------------------------
ending on the 5th string
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret what he plays from :19--:21 in the first line of the song, after the word "night"? I'm hearing this as an A chord; 1str open; 2nd str/5th fret;3rd str/6th fret
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret what he plays he in his solo, from 1:49--1:52?
-------------------------------
-------------------------------
-------------------------2-2--
-7-7-7-7-7--2---0-----------
----------------3---3-3------0
-------------------------------
ending on the 5th string.

Or at least that's what I jotted down last night! Hope it makes sense.

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 28, 2020, 04:46:07 AM
* What playing position/tuning did Carolina Slim use to play the song? - A standard

   * Where did Carolina Slim fret the long ascending/descending run he plays from :11--:16?
----------------------3---------------------------------------------------
---2---3---4---5---------5---4----3----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------5----2---------------------------
---------------------------------------------------5---2---0---------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------3b---3b--3b----0---
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret what he plays from :19--:21 in the first line of the song, after the word "night"?

abbreviated A chord on open first string, 2nd string at 5th fret and 3rd string at 6th fret

   * Where did Carolina Slim fret what he plays he in his solo, from 1:49--1:52?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------0----1----2--------------------------------------------------
---0---4-------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------0----------------------------------------
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 29, 2020, 06:50:53 AM
A standard tuned low.
I’m with the Professor on the runs as far as my poor ears can make out.

He sounds like a mixture of BBFuller and Lightning Hopkins. However, I always had a feel the Lightning had listened to Fuller, certainly when listening to his early recordings.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on January 29, 2020, 10:53:58 AM
One thing I would add is that I think he's tuned his bass string down to D (relatively speaking) but didn't quite make it. But it does sound to me as if he's playing a low open 6th with his IV chords.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 30, 2020, 01:04:42 PM
Yeah, I heard that low bass string, first at the 8 sec mark, but just thought he was horribly out of tune. I think I owe Carolina Slim an apology. I'm going with A in dropped D tuning.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 31, 2020, 01:40:54 AM
I did too. But I think banjochris is right about the drop D! Pity, as it kicks my answer into touch!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 01, 2020, 06:04:07 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the puzzler on Carolina Slim's "Worrying Blues"?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on February 01, 2020, 06:20:36 AM
You folks have good ears.  I got as far as A position.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 04, 2020, 11:26:38 AM
Hi all,
We've had no responses for several days on the puzzler on Carolina Slim's "Worrying Blues", so I'll post the answers.  Here goes:

For Carolina Slim's "Worrying Blues":
   * His playing position was A position in Dropped-D tuning, as Chris first noted.  You can really hear that low root on the IV chord when he first goes to his D chord.
   * He fretted the long ascending/descending run from :11--:16 as follows:  On the + of beat four, he hits a bent fifth fret of the third string.  On beat one he plays a triplet moving up the second string from the third fret to the fourth fret to the fifth fret.  On beat two, he plays a triplet going from the third fret of the first string to the fifth fret of the second string to the third fret of the second string.  On beat three, he plays another triplet, going from the first fret of the second string to the second fret of the third string to the open third string.  On beat four, he plays a triplet descending the fourth string chromatically, second fret, first fret, open.  On beat five, he hits the bent third fret of the fifth string twice, on 6 +.  And on beat six, he concludes the run with a triplet, hitting the bent third fret of the fifth string and then hitting the second fret of the third string twice, finally resolving into the open fifth string on the downbeat of the next measure.  The length of this run and it's circuitous quality are very Lightninesque.
   * From :19--:21, Carolina Slim brushes the first three strings, while fretting the sixth fret of the third string and the fifth fret of the second string, as both Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy had it.  Getting that unison between the fifth fret of the second string and the open first string gives the brush stroke a neat buzzy quality.
   * From 1:49--1:52, Carolina Slim starts a slide from the second fret of the fourth string on the + of beat two of a 2-beat measure, arriving at the seventh fret of the fourth string on beat one and filling out the beat by hitting that note two more times for a triplet.  On beat 2 + he goes from the seventh fret of the fourth string to the open fourth string.  On beat three, he plays a triplet going from the bet third fret of the fifth string to the open fourth string and back to the bent third fret of the fifth string.  On beat four, he plays another triplet, going from the bent third fret of the fifth string and hitting the second fret of the third string twice, finally resolving to the open fifth string on the downbeat of the next measure.  Once again, the placement of the run and its sense of taking however much time is necessary to complete the musical thought is very much in Lightnin' Hopkins' style.

I think that Phil's observation that Carolina Slim sounds like a combination of Blind Boy Fuller and Lightnin' Slim is spot on.  Behind his singing, Carolina Slim shows a stronger Fuller influence in his phrasing and timing, utilizing several of Fuller's pet moves in A, but in his soloing, he shows a much stronger Lightnin' Hopkins influence.  And of course, Lightnin' recorded several songs played in A out of Dropped-D tuning, which is something Fuller never did.  It's really a shame that Carolina Slim passed away so young, both for his own sake and for his friends and family, of course, but in a musical sense, because he wasn't presented with the opportunity to come into his own, in a way.  Despite that, he recorded a lot of really strong music, and as I listen to him more, I'm more and more impressed all the time.  He really had a lot to offer.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed Carolina Slim's "Worrying Blues".  I'll try to find another puzzler to post soon.  Incidentally, I hope those of you who are guitarists will try some of these runs--they're great!
All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 24, 2020, 12:23:53 PM
Hi all,
It has been a while since I posted a new puzzler, and I have one for those of you who are interested--Kid Prince Moore's "Sign of Judgement".  Here is Kid Prince Moore's performance of the song:

https://youtu.be/p8POLysaOqc

The question on Kid Prince Moore's "Sign of Judgement" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * In the chorus, tell what chord he is playing and what happens in the left hand the first time he sings the word "sign".
   * In the chorus, tell what chord he is playing and what happens in the left hand the second time he sings the word "sign".

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers prior to 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, February 27.  Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy "Sign of Judgement".

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on February 27, 2020, 07:03:31 AM
I think he's playing out of C position with the guitar tuned a couple of steps low, and at the first "sign," he's sliding the C shape up two frets, and at the second sign, he does the same thing with the G7 shape.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 29, 2020, 12:39:37 PM
This is a beautiful piece. I've gone around in circles a bit on this one but have come around to it being played out of C in standard but about a whole step low. There's a part of this that reminds me of Rev Gary Davis' 'A Little More Faith in Jesus'.

Still unsure about what's going on behind the 'sing' parts though.

All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on February 29, 2020, 02:06:24 PM
Old Man Ned is correct I think.  I meant two frets, not steps, low.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 03, 2020, 06:14:21 AM
Agree C standard tuned low. For the first 'sign' he could be playing a first position G shape and sliding it up two frets from third to fifth fret. For the second 'sign' he could be doing this too, or maybe it's a first position C shape with the pinky on the third set of the first string slid up two frets?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frailer24 on March 04, 2020, 02:43:01 PM
Here's my take on it:
Position: C standard, tuned a full step low sounding at Bb.
The choruses are a great example of melody taking the bass for a ride, as he plays:
x3xxx3 slid to the 5th fret behind the first "sign" and:
3xxxx3 sliding up to the 5th behind the second "sign".
Great number that I might decide to cover myself! :)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on March 04, 2020, 07:08:26 PM

I think he's playing in C tuned down more than a full step.
1st "Sign" I think he's taking a C-shape (with the pinky on the 1st String 3rd fret) and sliding it up 2 frets.
2nd "Sign" I think he slides a G shape up 2 frets.

I first heard of this song here on WC a few years ago, and instantly loved it. I had never tried playing it until this puzzler came along. The way Prince Kid Moore comes in and out with the bass notes makes it tricky for me to find my groove.

Side notes: His voice reminds me a lot of Mance Lipscomb's. That outro makes me giggle every time I hear it.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 06, 2020, 03:14:55 PM
Hi all,
The current puzzler on Kid Prince Moore's "Sign of Judgement" has been up a while and we've had no new responses in a couple of days, so I'll post the answers.

For Kid Prince Moore's "Sign of Judgement":
   * His playing position/tuning was C position in standard tuning, though tuned low, as I believe every responder had it.  Well done!
   * At the first time he sings "sign" in the chorus, he does a pinched double slide on the fifth and first strings, starting out fingering a C chord with the little finger fretting the third fret of the first string and the third or ring finger fretting the third fret of the fifth string.  Both strings slide up to the fifth fret on the word "sign".
   * At the second singing of "sign" in the chorus, he does another pinched double slide from the third to the fifth fret, but this time on the sixth and first strings in a G chord.  These two moves were described right on the money by frailer24 and Forgetful Jones, and as frailer24 noted, the phrases are perfect examples of the melody taking the bass for a ride.  Well done!

I sure like Kid Prince Moore's earnest way of singing the number, and the way he omits beats in the bass is interesting and I think makes the song a good candidate for figuring out, just the way he did it.

Thanks to all who responded, and I hope folks enjoyed "Sign of Judgement".
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on March 07, 2020, 10:47:07 AM
One more thing that I find interesting about Sign of Judgement is the bass during the 2 "Satan" verses. Moore goes from an alternating bass to a monotonic bass to dropping the bass completely in just a few measures. He does this both times, although there is a slight variation between the two. Cool stuff.

I also found this song much easier to play once I started singing along.

Cheers
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 02, 2020, 10:31:39 AM
Hi all,
I hope everyone is staying careful, safe and healthy in the current public health crisis.  I realized it's been a little while since we've had a new puzzler, and with so many people having to stay home and perhaps with more time on their hands than usual, I though I'd post the first two-part puzzler in a while.  Both songs are from Babe Stovall, who was born in Mississippi but spent much of his adult life in New Orleans.  The first puzzler is Babe's piece "Maypole March".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/8IL8zNCZzOI

For Babe Stovall's "Maypole March":
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Given his playing position/tuning, what is somewhat unusual about the bass he plays in the body of the song?

The second puzzler is Babe Stovall's version of "Boll Weevil".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/jO9nFtN73Jg

INTRO SOLO

First heard tell of boll weevil, twenty-third of June
Looked over in my cotton field, he was sittin' in a cotton bloom
He had a home, in the cotton bloom

SOLO

Went to the merchant, asked him what he think of that:
I found a boll weevil in my Sunday hat
He had a home, in the cotton bloom

SOLO

Went to the merchant, asked him for a-meal and a mule
"You go home, old nigger, the boll weevil's in your field.
You go home, and let me alone."

SOLO X 2

Went down to the brier patch, heard a great racket
Nothin' but a bull frog, pullin' off his jacket
(Guitar concludes verse)

SOLO X 2

For Babe Stovall's "Boll Weevil":
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Babe begins most of his verses with three hammers in the treble from where to where?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers.  Answer as few or as many of the questions as you wish, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Sunday, April 5.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 07, 2020, 12:12:18 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Babe Stovall puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 08, 2020, 04:57:39 AM
For Babe Stovall's "Maypole March":
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song? -Vestapol
   * Given his playing position/tuning, what is somewhat unusual about the bass he plays in the body of the song?-Is he playing the bass on the open fourth string?


-For Babe Stovall's "Boll Weevil":
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song? - standard G
   * Babe begins most of his verses with three hammers in the treble from where to where? - second string open to second string third fret.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on April 08, 2020, 12:45:56 PM
For Babe Stovall's "Maypole March":
   Playing position/tuning I'm hearing in Vestapol/Open D
   What is somewhat unusual about the bass he plays in the body of the song? Is he alternating the open 5th & 4th strings as opposed to the more 'usual' open 6th & 4th strings?

For Babe Stovall's "Boll Weevil":
   This was causing me some turmoil for some reason, but yeah, standard G sounds to fit for me.
   Again, agree with Prof Scratchy on the three hammers in the treble - open 2nd string to 3rd fret.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on April 09, 2020, 05:15:23 AM
Now that I’ve got to it, I’m with the Prof.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on April 09, 2020, 04:08:05 PM
Maypole March- Vestapol tuning, but he doesn't seem to play the 6th string much, which would be unusual for that tuning.

Boll Weevil- Standard tuning, G position. He hammers the 2nd string from open to the 3rd fret (then hits that fretted note again on the 2nd string)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 15, 2020, 09:05:58 AM
Hi all,
It has been a while since there have been any new posts on the Babe Stovall puzzlers, so I will post the answers.  Here they are:

For Babe Stovall's "Maypole March":
   * His playing position/tuning was Vestapol tuning, played in the key of the open sixth, fourth and first strings.  Ever responder had this right.
   * Given his playing position and tuning, what was unusual about Babe Stovall's bass alternation is that he almost completely avoids the low root of the I chord, the open sixth string, and chooses instead to alternate between the open with and fourth strings over his I chord.  I don't think he hits the open sixth string at all until the very end of the song, when he hits it when playing a wind-up chord.  Old Man Ned and Forgetful Jones put their fingers on what was unusual about Babe Stovall's bass on the tune.

For Babe Stovall's "Boll Weevil":
   * His playing position/tuning was G position in standard tuning.  Once again, every responder had this right--good hearing!
   * Babe Stovall's three hammers in the treble at the beginning of most of his verse accompaniments are from the open second string to the third fret of the second string, exactly as Prof Scratchy had it in his initial response, and as Old Man Ned, blueshome and Forgetful Jones noted, too.

I think that Babe Stovall's playing has been under-examined by most of us present-day players of this music.  He had some really original sounds in the way he played in G position in standard tuning and in other playing positions as well.
Thanks to all who participated in the puzzlers, and I hope folks enjoyed the tunes.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 16, 2020, 12:05:02 PM
Hi all,
It's been a while since we had a new puzzler.  I thought I would do two this time, for which the only question will be the playing position/tuning used by the musicians to play their songs.  The first one is "Remember Me", by Charles Caldwell, and here it is:

https://youtu.be/952gpmlZuJY

INTRO

Will you remember me?  Can you remember me? The last time I saw you,
I caught you by the hand, do you remember me?  You said I'd be your man

SOLO

Can you remember me?  The last time I saw you
I caught you by the hand, do you remember me?  You said I'd be your man

SOLO

Do you remember me?  The last time I saw you
I caught you by the hand, do you remember me?  Said I would be your man, that I would be your man, that I would be your man

Do you remember me? 

 The second is from J B Lenoir, and it is his "Born Dead", recently posted in the "The Wordless Voice" thread.  Here is "Born Dead":

https://youtu.be/m9I19XDzJCI

INTRO

Lord, why was I born in Mississippi, when it's so hard to get ahead?
Why was I born in Mississippi, when it's so hard to get ahead?
Every black child born in Mississippi, you know the poor child was born dead

When he came into the world, the doctor spank him, the black baby cried
When he came into the world, the doctor spank him, the black baby cried
Everybody thought he had life, and that's when the black baby died

He will never speak his name right, the poor baby would never speak his mind
Lord, he will never speak his name right, the poor baby, he will never speak his mind
The poor child will never know his mind, why in the world he's so far behind

Lord, why was I born in Mississippi, where it's so hard to get ahead?
Lord, why was I born in Mississippi, when it's so hard to get ahead?
Every black child born in Mississippi, you know the poor child was born dead

The only question for each song is what playing position/tuning was used to play the song.

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, May 18.  Answer for one or both songs, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 19, 2020, 08:40:39 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Charles Caldwell and J B Lenoir puzzlers?  Go for both or answer just one.  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 19, 2020, 10:23:13 AM
I'll say Spanish for Charles Caldwell and Drop D for JB Lenoir.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on May 19, 2020, 03:04:54 PM
Charles Caldwell may be in Spanish around A
JB Lenoir may be in standard tuning E position

I'm not too confident in either answer, but Caldwell is especially tricky to my ears.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on May 19, 2020, 05:13:24 PM
I'm pretty sure they're both played in standard tuning.

I think Caldwell's in Em capoed up to A and never hits the first string except at the very end of the tune - the main lick fits perfectly on an Em chord and the open 4th string, with the open 2nd string used as drone and the main melody played on the 3rd string.

Lenoir sounds like regular old E position to me with a fancy IV chord, playing that Lightnin'-esque B note on the 2nd fret of the 5th string for his turnaround.

Great songs.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on May 21, 2020, 06:36:28 AM
Spanish at A for Caldwell and E standard for JB.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 21, 2020, 11:29:10 AM
Yes on reflection, and with a guitar to hand, I’ll now go for E standard for JB. I was led astray by Alabama March!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 21, 2020, 11:51:04 AM
Was puzzling over these last night and decided against posting until I'd come back and had another listen. I'm still going with what I thought last night, Charles Caldwell in A standard tuning and J B Lenoir in E standard.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on May 21, 2020, 12:17:28 PM
I'm changing my answer on Remember Me. I think he's in standard tuning, A position. He still gets some gritty (awesome) sounds that I can't quite figure out.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 25, 2020, 10:50:53 AM
Hi all,
Any more takers for the Charles Caldwell and J B Lenoir puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 27, 2020, 12:13:46 PM
Hi all,
It has been a little while since there have been any new responses on the Charles Caldwell and J B Lenoir puzzlers, so I will post the answers:

For Charles Caldwell's "Remember Me":
   * He played the song in A, in standard tuning, as Old Man Ned and Forgetful Jones identified it.  The way you can tell he plays it out of A in standard tuning rather than Spanish tuning or E in standard tuning capoed up is that he is hitting a little counter-punching II note occasionally over his I chord in his signature lick.  The signature lick starts on a V note at the second fret of the fourth string on the + of beat four, going up to a bVII note on the open third string on beat one of the form, holding that into beat two, and resolving up to a I note at the second fret of the third string on the + of beat two.  He then hits the I note an octave lower, on the open fifth string, on beats three and four, pinching it with that II note, the open second string on beat four.  He then re-starts the lick on the + of beat four, changing it when he gets to beat one by hitting the bVII note on beats 1 + 2, rather than having it sustain from beat 1 into beat 2.  The remainder of the lick is the same as in the first bar, except he hits the II note on the open second string a sixteenth note ahead of beat four rather than pinching it with the open fifth string on beat four.  The II note would be a fretted note, at the fourth fret of the fourth string in E in standard tuning and the second fret of the third string in Spanish tuning, and in either case would involve a conscious choice to fret and play it, as opposed to A in standard tuning where it is a "found" sound on an open string that sits easily and naturally and just comes from running the right hand in the rhythm of the lick. 

For J B Lenoir's "Born Dead":
   * His playing position was Dropped-D, as Prof Scratchy had it in his very first response to the puzzlers.  When I initially started to figure this song out, I thought it was in E position, standard tuning, but when I listened to J B Lenoir's outro, from 3:47 to 3:55, I realized he was playing in Dropped-D tuning.  He clearly hits a G chord on the open fourth, third and second strings at 3:53, and his concluding ascending run is a piece of cake in Dropped-D, but would be really non-intuitive and awkward to play in E in standard tuning.  He's just hitting an ascending arpeggio on the open sixth string, open fourth string, second fret of the third string, third fret of the second string, open first string, resolving to the second fret of the first string.  Get in Dropped-D and put a capo on the third fret and it's right there.

JB Lenoir used Dropped-D tuning for a lot of his solo tracks from the mid-60s, and his sound in Dropped-D was really original, not owing any obvious debts to previous players who had utilized Dropped-D a fair amount, like Gabriel Brown and Lightnin' Hopkins.  On "Born Dead", he in particular utilized a little box of notes located at the third and fifth frets of the fifth and fourth strings.  It's there that he plays his most florid and exciting out-of tempo fills on the song.  You can tell from his tone, especially if you've watched the videos of him playing that are up on youtube, that he used a thumbpick on his right hand to play most of the guitar part on the song, just occasionally using his index finger to pick, too.

I sure like both of the songs in this puzzler, and I think they were both pretty tough identifications.  I hope folks enjoyed the songs, and thanks especially to those who participated.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 27, 2020, 03:28:18 PM
Drat! Shouldn’t have changed my mind! Excellent puzzlers, Johnm!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 03, 2020, 09:46:05 AM
Hi all,
I think I'll post two new puzzlers with the same format as last time, with the only question being what playing position/tuning was used to play the songs in question.  This time, the two featured musicians are players who were first recorded by Dr. Harry Oster at Angola Penitentiary.  The first song is "Duckin' and Dodgin'" by Hogman Maxey.  Here is his rendition of "Duckin' and Dodgin'":

https://youtu.be/b5WCsRdm0eM

INTRO

You can duck, you can dodge, but you can't come home no more
You can duck, you can dodge, but you can't come home no more
'Cause the key you got don't fit that lock no more

INTERLUDE

Oh tell me, babe, where you stay last night?
Oh tell me, babe, where'd you stay last night?
You didn't come home, sun was shinin' bright

INTERLUDE (Spoken: Now look at Grandma, there, tryin' to boogie!)

You can boogie, you can boogie, you can boogie from your heart
You can boogie, baby, boogie from your heart
Lord, I hate to boogie, and I like boogie in the dark

OUTRO

What playing position/tuning did Hogman Maxey use to play "Duckin' and Dodgin'"?

The second song is from Guitar Welch, and it is his version of "Electric Chair Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/LYK_R5tveVs

INTRO SOLO (Spoken:  Say there, old partner, how about let's goin' down the road a piece and have a ball.  Okay, Bob, I don't care if I do.)

I'm gonna shake hands with my partner, I'm gonna aks him how come he here
I'm gonna shake hands with my partner, I'm gonna aks him how come he here
You know, I had a wreck in my family, they gonna send me to the old 'lectric chair

Wonder why they 'lecstrocute a man, at the one o'clock hour at night
Wonder why they 'lecstrocute a man, baby, Lord, at the one o'clock hour at night
The current much stronger, people turn out all their light

Hoo well, I guess I have to go back home
Hoooooo, baby, guess I have to go back home
Seem like my trouble, baby, they ain't gonna let me alone

I believe, I believe, baby, I believe I'll go back home
I believe, oh baby, Lord, I believe I'll go back home
This old life I'm livin', baby, Lord, it ain't gonna last me long

SOLO

Goodbye, little girl, tell you, well, goodbye, goodbye
Goodbye, little girl, goodbye, bye, well, goodbye
I got a Special Limit, pretty mama, baby, and I've got to leave your town

I heared a rumblin' this mornin', baby, was deep down in the ground
Rumblin' this mornin', baby, Lord, it was deep down in the ground
Boys, that must have been that old devil, trying' to chain my baby down

SOLO

What playing position/tuning did Guitar Welch use to play "Electric Chair Blues"?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM on Saturday, June 6.  Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on June 03, 2020, 10:14:34 PM
John, that "Duckin' and Dodgin'" has a texture that reminds me weirdly of Fahey's "Downfall of the Adelphi Rolling Grist Mill." Very few pieces manage to do that!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 03, 2020, 10:22:33 PM
You've got me curious, Chris, because I don't have the sound of the Fahey tune in my head at all.  I'll have to check it out--thanks!
John
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Stuart on June 04, 2020, 03:20:21 PM
John, that "Duckin' and Dodgin'" has a texture that reminds me weirdly of Fahey's "Downfall of the Adelphi Rolling Grist Mill." Very few pieces manage to do that!
Chris

I listened to them both and I hear a similarity in what I can best describe as a chopping rhythmic sound. Whether or not I would have made the connection without Chris' prompt is another matter, but Chris' sense of the similarity is not without basis, IMHO.

"Downfall..." was first released on LP in 1963. Nancy McLean plays the flute, IIRC.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on June 06, 2020, 09:13:14 AM
For the first time in a long time, I'll play this game.
I hear Hogman Maxey as playing Duckin' and Dodgin' in Spanish tuning, yet playing in the relative key of D.

Guitar Welch sounds like he is playing Electric Chair Blues in standard tuning, key of A. Although I think this could also be played in Vestapol capoed up 2 frets, or tuned up, I believe that to be unlikely (especially unlikely capoed) because of how up the neck he plays some portions.

Thanks John,
Dave
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lyndvs on June 06, 2020, 10:05:00 AM
Hogman=Standard tuning,E position capo around third fret.
Guitar Welch=Spanish.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 06, 2020, 03:01:05 PM
I’ll go with E standard for Hogman Maxey and Spanish for Guitar Welch, as Lyndvs says.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on June 07, 2020, 06:58:18 AM
I think Hogman Maxey (what a name!) is in E position, standard tuning tuned down about a step. This song reminds me of another song recorded at Angola- Robert Pete Williams "I'm Blue as a Man Can Be."

I think Guitar Welch is playing in Spanish tuning. There are some elements that remind me of Furry Lewis's pieces in Spanish tuning.

Good songs. I'm not familiar with either artist.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 07, 2020, 09:15:05 AM
I'm struggling a bit with Hogman Maxey's "Duckin' and Dodgin'". E stranded, just about sums up my answer. Is he playing a 12 string, tuned quite low?

Guitar Welch's "Electric Chair Blues" I'm hearing in A standard.

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 10, 2020, 09:48:59 AM
Hi all,
Any more takers for the Hogman Maxey and Guitar Welch puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on June 11, 2020, 07:09:28 AM
A† last got round to this with guitars handy.
Going with E standard and Spanish

\really interesting examples.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 17, 2020, 11:15:55 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who intended to post answers to the Hogman Maxey and Guitar Welch puzzlers has done so, so I'll post the answers.

For Hogman Maxey's "Duckin' and Dodgin', his playing position/tuning was E in standard tuning, as a number of you had it.  He's pretty much living at the fourth fret of the third string and the third fret of the second string in his I chord, then sliding it down and ending up in an E at the base of the neck (or at least a partial fingering there).  For his solos, he takes his default position up two frets to 6-5 on the third and second strings, respectively, and riffs out of the position there, fretting the seventh fret of the first string and the bent eighth fret of the second string, intermittently, as well.

For Guitar Welch's "Electric Chair Blues", his playing position/tuning was Spanish tuning.  Probably the biggest give-away of the tuning being Spanish rather than A position in standard tuning is his V7 chord at :29--32, where he has a pick-up slide into the third of the I chord, landing on the root of the V7 chord on the downbeat of the ninth bar, and voicing the chord on the three strings above that 5-b7-R.  In Spanish, that V7 voicing ends up being 0-2-1-0, moving from the fourth string to the first string.  In A in standard tuning, the same sound would be fretted at 2-4-3-0 on the same strings, certainly not an impossible fingering, but at the same time a non-intuitive one.  And if you're playing in A in standard tuning, the natural thing for your V7 chord would be to voice the E7 chord with its third played at the first fret of the third string.

Dr. Harry Oster certainly found some wonderful musicians among the inmates at Angola Penitentiary when he recorded there in the late '50s and early '60s.  Hogman Maxey doesn't have that many titles available, but everything he did record has killer time, really outstanding, and Guitar Welch was similarly a strong player, and perhaps a bit more versatile than Maxey, at least on the basis of the recorded evidence.  I suspect Dr. Oster had something of the personal qualities of George Mitchell--they both seemed to elicit such strong takes  from the musicians they recorded.  And I suppose they didn't release the weaker takes.

Thanks to the people who posted answers to the puzzlers and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.  I'll look for some other songs to post as puzzlers soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 25, 2020, 05:32:10 PM
Hi all,
I just found two tunes by an artist I really like who didn't have many titles released, so I thought I'd put them in a puzzler.  The musician is David Wylie.  He recorded a couple of titles around 1950 for Regal.  The first song is "You're Gonna Weep And Moan", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/8NzGH5wh70c

INTRO

You gonna weep and moan, everything that you have did to poor me
You gonna weep and moan, everything that you have did to poor me
Say you to caused me to walk the streets all night long, ain't have a place to lay my weary head

I said, someday, darlin', I'm gonna get myself a job
I say, someday, darlin', I'm gonna get myself a job
I'm gonna quit bein' these women's dog, babe, that's 'most any old way

INTERLUDE

Just because I'm down and out, baby, I ain't got no friend in this world
Just because I'm down and out, baby, I ain't got no friends in this world
Say when I had plenty of money, baby, friends used to hang around my door every morning

INTERLUDE WITH HUMMING

It's when I get myself a job, I ain't gon' pay no-one for no 'tension
'Cause all my friends I had, throwed me down and walked away (Spoken: What say, guitar, talk to me!)

INTERLUDE WITH HUMMING

SOLO (Spoken: Lord have mercy!)

The questions on David Wylie's "You're Gonna Weep And Moan" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * From what song did he copy the little bass run lick that plays a couple of times in the course of his rendition, and what was the playing position/tuning of that source performance?

The second song, also by David Wylie, is "Baby, You Don't Mean Me No Good".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/d-pt2kfWrek

INTRO WITH HUMMING

I said, darlin', darlin', why poor you miss poor me?
I said, darlin', darlin', why you mistreat poor me?
'Cause you a no-good woman, don't mean no one man no good

INTERLUDE WITH HUMMING

SOLO (Spoken: Lord have mercy--woman don't mean nobody no good. Humming)

Says I can't understand sometime, why in the world you mistreat poor me
(Guitar plays second line)
Just because I'm lonesome and blue, you don't give a think about me

SOLO

I said, Lawd, Lawd, hmmmmmm
I said, Lawdy-Lawd, please help me if you please

 The question on David Wylie's "Baby, You Don't Mean Me No Good" are:
   *  What playing position/tuning did David Wylie use to play the song?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to come up with your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, June 29.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on June 29, 2020, 07:17:57 AM
I’ll take a punt,
C standard for both.
The run from JLH’s Crawling Kingsnake was originally played out of Spanish tuning
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 29, 2020, 12:47:55 PM
I think both performances are in A standard capoed at the third fret, sounding in C. The bass run sounds like John Lee Hooker, as blueshome says.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on June 29, 2020, 04:44:47 PM
Good songs. I've never heard of David Wylie before.

I think both tunes are in standard tuning, A position capo'd up a bit.

The bass run lick comes from John Lee Hooker's Hobo Blues, which is in Spanish tuning.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on June 30, 2020, 01:26:29 PM
Never heard of Davis Wylie before and loving these tunes. I agree, I'm hearing both of these in A standard capoed at the 3rd, assuming he's tuned to pitch. Also, hearing John Lee Hooker for the bass run, though it's not coming to mind, which tune.

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: rein on June 30, 2020, 02:44:05 PM
I think the first one is in A, with the bass run of Hobo Blues (though I think John Lee Hooker also used it on some other songs). The second sounds to me more like it is in Spanish.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on July 06, 2020, 05:35:05 AM
I’ll shift to A form the 1st.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 15, 2020, 12:40:16 PM
Hi all,
I'm sorry to be so long providing the answers to the two David Wylie puzzlers, especially since there have been no responses for some time now.  The answers are as follows:

For "You're Gonna Weep And Moan":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as pretty much everyone had it.
   * The lick that he played I very much associate with John Lee Hooker's playing of "Hobo Blues", in Spanish tuning, though John Lee may have played it also on his version of "Crawling Kingsnake", with which I'm not familiar.

For "Baby, You Don't Mean Me No Good":
   * David Wylie was once again playing in A position in standard tuning.

David Wylie sounds quite young on these recordings, I think.  I like the way that he doesn't worry about his lyrics rhyming--it makes them feel more conversational.  If I recall correctly, he was located during the rediscovery period of the '60s--'70s, but was not interested in performing or being recorded again.  Perhaps he had had a bad experience in his previous involvement in the music business, or simply had stopped playing.  I don't know.

I hope folks liked the songs, and thanks in particular to those who responded to the puzzlers. There was a really high percentage of correct answers this time.  Well done, and I'll look for some new puzzlers to post.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 28, 2020, 11:34:22 AM
Hi all,
We haven't had any puzzlers in a little while, so I thought I'd post two from a musician whom I don't think has been featured in this thread before--Bo Carter.  For both of these songs, all that's being asked is what playing position/tuning was used to play the song, and what you heard that pointed you in the direction of your choice of playing position/tuning.  The first song is "She's Your Cook But She Burns My Bread Sometimes".

https://youtu.be/Dd83P4MIDGU

The questions on "She's Your Cook But She Burns My Bread Sometimes" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Bo Carter use to play the song; and
   * At what point in the rendition did you hear something that made your choice for you?

The second song is "Loveless Love".

https://youtu.be/EdlAYEM59jQ

INTRO

Oh love, oh love, oh lover's love
You broke my heart and you didn't care
My love is growing cold, but yet it hurts my soul
With your love, oh love, oh lover's love

Someday I may be lucky again
Someday I may be lucky again
Someday I may be lucky again
To find some truly loving friend

I was good and loving all the time
I was good and loving all the time
I was good and loving, it is, all the time
But still, you wouldn't, not be mine

I just stands and squeeze my hands and cry
I just stands and squeeze my hands and cry
I just stands and squeeze my hands, and I cry
Hates to tell the one I love goodbye

Love, oh love, oh lover's love
You broke my heart and you didn't care
My love is growing cold, but yet it hurts my soul
With your love, oh love, oh lover's love
 
The questions on "Loveless Love" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Bo Carter use to play the song; and
   * At what point in the rendition did you hear something that made your choice for you?

Please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, July 31.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 02, 2020, 04:41:54 AM
I've struggled with this, but here goes:

"She's Your Cook But She Burns My Bread Sometimes" in C standard. I'm hearing the first couple of chords at the very start as C going to an A minor.

Both tunes have a similar guitar break starting from a D shaped chord
--2--                                                  --1--
--3--   going to the minor (? I think ?)   --3--
--2--                                                  --2--
 for "She's Your Cook" I'm hearing this shape starting up at around the 12th fret and for "Loveless Love" at around the 8th fret. For both tunes I'm hearing them finish on, what I'm assuming to be, the 7th of the key they are in.

Which leads me to suggest "She's Your Cook" is in C standard and Loveless Love is in G. I'm hearing the latter played on all the top strings so I'm not sure if G standard or Dropped G. I'll say G standard as I would guess Bo Carter would use the open G on the 5th string if he had tuned it down, but I can't hear this. But, as they say, because I can't hear it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist :-)

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lyndvs on August 02, 2020, 09:02:43 AM
I play both Bo Carter tunes in Half-Spanish.They just have similar moves to other Carter tunes I know are definitely in that tuning.Not sure though,Bo would play similar sounding stuff in multiple tunings.I`ll go Half-Spanish for both.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 02, 2020, 09:39:29 AM
I’m going to say B standard for the first one and Ab for the second. In both he does his regular G6 tuning moves (instrumental break on first one, entire backing on second) but he only seems to be striking the top three strings for the most part. This makes me think he’s tuned to standard tuning and is pitching his accompaniment to where his voice is best suited. In ‘She’s My Cook’ he seems to be using closed chords for the intro and vocal accompaniment (F shapes and C7 shapes), so in placing my answer at B standard I’m assuming he’s tuned at around concert pitch. That said, I’m probably totally wrong!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 06, 2020, 09:32:30 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the two Bo Carter puzzlers?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on August 08, 2020, 07:04:50 AM
This was really tough for me and I don't have a lot of confidence in my answers.

For "Burns my Bread" I had been messing around in standard tuning playing long A shapes, but there was a dissonant open 4th string that I was hearing during the break. Could it be that this is in B-Flat? I don't know of other songs that may use this key.

I didn't spend a lot of time with "Loveless Love," but right in the intro with a similar chord pattern as "Burns My Bread" (D-shaped G & G minor chords) I could also hear the open 4th string. So I think that one is in G, standard tuning.

Bo Carter is an intimidating player for me (very sophisticated style to my ears). And I've read on this site that he uses some open tunings that I have not played with, so I could be way off.

Cheers!

Edited to correct a misspelling.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 14, 2020, 10:02:46 AM
Hi all,
There have been no responses to the two Bo Carter puzzlers posted for several days, so I will post the answers. I should say before I start that I think the tuning/position identifications on the songs that Bo flat-picked are difficult because on these songs he was working for the most part using closed chord positions in the left hand, and probably the biggest assist in figuring out what tuning or position a player was using to play a song is being able to hear where the open strings fall in the sound of what's being played. Anyway, here goes:

For "She's Your Cook, But She Burns My Bread Sometimes":
   * Bo Carter played the song of Bb position in standard tuning, as Forgetful Jones had it. I'll get into how you could make that identification in the answer to the next question.
   * In Bo's solo, at 1:18, 1:21, and several places after that I heard what I needed to make the identification of his playing position as Bb in standard tuning. He starts the solo with one of his favorite moves up the neck, rocking between a I chord played out of the D shape on the first three strings to a IV7 chord, also on the first three strings, which he would get by raising the third string two frets, keeping the second string where he was fretting it in the D shape, and lowering the first string one fret. Bo loved this move, and employed it on many of his songs that I bet a lot of you play, like "I Want You To Know" and the solo of "Arrangement For Me Blues". In any event, the D shape voices its third on the first string--think about a D chord at the base of the neck, where the note on the first string is F#, the third of the D chord.
   At 1:18 and 1:21 and virtually every other time in the solo when Bo played that D shape up the neck, he purposely or inadvertently also hit the open fourth string with his pick, and the note on the open fourth string is the same as the note on the first string in that D shape up the neck, but two octaves lower. So if the open fourth string is the same note as the third of the chord up the neck in the D shape, which is the I chord, what chord has D as its third? Bb. So it is, that Bo played the song out of Bb position in standard tuning, and this despite the fact that the rendition sounds in B, where Prof Scratchy had it. I think it is much more likely that Bo was tuned a half-step high than that he was using a capo at the first fret.
   An additional indication of Bo's chordal sophistication is the fact that he didn't voice his I chord, Bb and his V7 chord, F7, in only one way behind his singing throughout the course of the rendition. He begins the song voicing his Bb chord like a barred E shape at the sixth fret, 6-8-8-7-6-6, and voices his F7 chord like a C7 at the eighth fret, X-8-7-8-6-X. But later in the song, at 1:52, in the first verse after the solo, he ends the first A part of that verse voicing his Bb chord at the base of the neck, 1-1-3-3-3-X, and at 2:00 he concludes the second A part of that verse by playing an F7 at the base of the neck, 1-X-3-2-4-1. So, even on such a complicated chord progression, Bo didn't just figure out one way of playing the progression and stick to it for the entire song; rather, he was able to play some variations in his chordal back-up.

For "Loveless Love:
   * Bo's playing position/tuning was G position in standard tuning*, as Forgetful Jones and Old Man Ned had it. I asterisked that identification for reasons that will be explained in the next answer.
   * Before the piece even hits :01 and again at :04, you can hear what enables the identification of G as the playing position. Bo begins the piece with the same chordal movement that he employed for the solo of "She's Your Cook, But She Burns My Bread Sometimes", and as in that song, he purposely or inadvertently hits the open D string as he strums the D shape on the first three strings. Unlike "She's Your Cook", where the open D string matched the third of the D shape voiced on the first string, in "Loveless Love", the open D string matches the fifth of the D shape, the note on the third string, but sounding one octave lower in pitch. Old Man Ned noted this in his response. So if D is the V of the I chord, what does that make the I chord? G.
   A respect in which this identification can not be made with absolute certainty is that from the beginning to the end of the rendition, Bo only plays the fourth through first strings, and never sounds the sixth and fifth strings. And because the DGDGBE tuning that Bo favored for so much of his fingerpicked playing is the same as standard tuning on the first four strings, it is not impossible that Bo played the song out of DGDGBE tuning, as Lyndvs had it--the left and right hands would be identical in standard tuning in G or in DGDGBE tuning in G for "Loveless Love" as Bo played it here. My belief is that Bo played it out of standard tuning, mostly because all of his other flat-picked tunes that I've heard were played out of standard tuning, but that having been said, DGDGBE tuning can not be ruled out for "Loveless Love" with certainty. And the great thing about doing the song in standard tuning, is that if you wanted to do it but your vocal range was higher or lower than Bo's, you could move the accompaniment around, whereas moving the accompaniment around in DGDGBE tuning would be much more problematic.

Thanks to all who participated in what I think were unusually tough puzzlers. I hope folks enjoyed the tunes. I will look for some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: rein on August 16, 2020, 01:17:55 AM
Off course this is just a hunch and can t be proven either way,but maybe Bo Carter played this, and other songs where you dont hear the lower strings like Banana in your fruit basket, on a tenor guitar. As I understood, in that time tenor players would tune DGBE, like the top strings of the guitar. Tenor guitars would porably have been not uncommon for string band players. I believe Will Shade also played one and tenor banjos where still the thing in Jazz and pop music at the time. Then it might also make sense to develop the half spanish tuning, to adopt these pieces for guitar with the bass. As I said this is only a, quite uneducated, guess. Thanks a lot for these series. I dont really reply much, but that is because I am often late, unsure or just wrong, but I have learned a lot from these indept listening sessions.   All the best, Rein
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 16, 2020, 05:51:53 AM
You make a good point, rein, with regard to "Loveless Love", at least. I also wondered if Bo possibly played the song on a tenor guitar. It really would be odd for a guitarist so adept at voicing different chords up and down the neck to arbitrarily choose to play an entire song just on the first four strings of a conventionally-strung six-string guitar. What would be the point, especially on a record? It would also be an odd choice to make when he played so many songs with the same kind of chordal vocabulary on a six-string guitar. The choice being dictated by the instrument itself, in many ways, makes the most sense of all.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 22, 2020, 10:02:18 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for anyone who cares to participate, and they're a kind of barbershop duet, in that both of the musicians were barbers. The first is from Wade Walton, and it is his version of "Big Fat Mama", from his Prestige Bluesville album in the early '60s. The second is from Archie Edwards, and it is his song, "Everybody's Blues". Here is "Big Fat Mama":

https://youtu.be/YmkL_cVoWz8

Here are the questions on Wade Walton's "Big Fat Mama":
   * What playing position/tuning did Wade Walton use to play "Big Fat Mama"?
   * Melodically and in terms of phrasing, what other song shares the same sound as this "Big Fat Mama"?

Here is "Everybody's Blues":

https://youtu.be/Q1zDTlTlkDk

Here are the questions on Archie Edwards' "Everybody's Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did Archie Edwards use to play "Everybody's Blues"?
   * At the beginning of his solo, Archie Edwards employs what device in the left hand that has been discussed elsewhere on this site?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, August 25. Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 27, 2020, 04:16:01 AM
Here are the questions on Wade Walton's "Big Fat Mama":
   * What playing position/tuning did Wade Walton use to play "Big Fat Mama"? - E standard sounding at F
   * Melodically and in terms of phrasing, what other song shares the same sound as this "Big Fat Mama"? - Mystery Train by Junior Parker. The signature riff reminds me of Big Bill Broonzy’s Stump Blues.


Here are the questions on Archie Edwards' "Everybody's Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did Archie Edwards use to play "Everybody's Blues"? - A Standard
   * At the beginning of his solo, Archie Edwards employs what device in the left hand that has been discussed elsewhere on this site? - 3 frets up and see what you find.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on August 27, 2020, 05:33:40 AM
What the Prof said. The Stump Blues reference jumped out straight away.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on August 28, 2020, 01:20:35 PM
Never picked up a guitar to try these, but sounds like Archie Edwards' Everybody's Blues is in A standard. No idea on the left had device question.
Not sure about Big Fat Mama. As Prof said, it does sound like Mystery Train.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on August 29, 2020, 08:34:35 AM
Agree. E standard for Wade Walton and A standard for Archie Edwards. I can't say what other song shares the Wade Walton phrasing etc. Also agree with the 3 frets up device for the Archie Edwards tune.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 07, 2020, 10:17:18 AM
Hi all,
It has been a while since any responses were posted to the Wade Walton and Archie Edwards puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.  Here they are:

For Wade Walton's "Big Fat Mama":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning, as every responder had it--well done!
   * The phrasing of "Big Fat Mama" and it's chord progression were the same as "Mystery Train", as Prof Scratchy and others noted.

For Archie Edwards' "Everybody's Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was A position in standard tuning, as I think every responder had it
   * The left hand device utilized by Archie Edwards at the beginning of his solo was the "three frets up" in which you move a closed major chordal position up three frets, getting a "blue" sound, which is exactly as Prof Scratchy identified it in the initial response.

I like Wade Walton's brushing/strummy right hand approach behind his singing--it's a cool sound. And I don't know about you all, but I definitely find it hard to feel where the chord changes and phrase endings come in Archie Edwards' song, I can't really anticipate them. I reckon I could memorize them, but I'm conscious of not feeling them the way he did.

Thanks to all who participated, and I think this was an instance in which every response was correct. You can't do better than that! I hope folks enjoyed the songs and I'll look for some more to post soon.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 18, 2020, 09:56:19 AM
Hi all,
We haven't had any new puzzlers for a while, so I thought I would post a couple. They will be Dennis McMillon's "Woke Up One Morning" and Cecil Barfield's "Love Blues". For each tune, there will be at least one question apart from the playing position/tuning that was used to play the song. Here is "Woke Up One Morning":

https://youtu.be/KeSLIBpNrWc

The questions on Dennis Mcmillon's "Woke Up One Morning" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did Dennis McMillon fret the run he played in the tenth bar of his first solo, from :57--:59?
   * Where did Dennis McMillon fret the concluding run of his rendition, from 2:37 to the last note?

Here is Cecil Barfield's "Love Blues":

https://youtu.be/e0jyjc8SGB8

INTRO

I love my babe mama, tell the world that I do
Couldn't mistreat her, baby, to save nobody's soul

The girl that I'm lovin', mama, the one that I crave to see
The girl that I'm a-lovin', she has turned her back on me, yeah

SOLO

Run here, baby, hold me in your lovin' arm
All I ask you to do, baby, just to have me just by your side

The good girl I want, mama, she always has been my crave
Good kind woman, babe, gonna take me to my grave

SOLO

My baby's got somethin', mama, know that these boatmen crave
It's like that, somethin' get in her, mean, makes me grieve today

SOLO

Run here, mama, know your, lovin' man ain't mad with you, yeah
Wouldn't think, nobody wants you to hold me in your lovin' arm

Look over yonder, where the risin' sun done gone
The sun done gone, baby, and had you, laughing here

Bye bye, baby, girl, if you call that gone
Ain't had no lovin' baby, since my, a-rider went away

SOLO
 
 The questions on Cecil Barfield's "Love Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Describe the location of the notes that Cecil Barfield played in the treble of his solo from 1:30--1:44.
   * True or false: "Love Blues" never goes to a V chord.

Please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, September 21, and please don't use anything other than your ears and your guitar to arrive at your answers. Answer a few or all of the questions, as you wish. Thanks for participating, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm     
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on September 21, 2020, 05:29:49 PM
Great song selection.

The questions on Dennis Mcmillan's "Woke Up One Morning" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
I think he may be in Cross note tuning, down at least a step.

   * Where did Dennis McMillon fret the run he played in the tenth bar of his first solo, from :57--:59?
Open 1st string --> Slide slightly beyond 3rd fret
Open 1st --> 2nd string 3rd fret --> Open 2nd
Slide (with finger) to 4th fret of 3rd string --> 2nd fret 3rd string
Bent 3rd fret 4th string --> Open 4th string

 
   * Where did Dennis McMillon fret the concluding run of his rendition, from 2:37 to the last note?
Open --> 2nd fret  --> Open, all on 2nd string
Open 1st --> Walk down 3rd fret--> 2nd fret --> Open 2nd string
3rd fret --> 4th Fret --> Open, on 4th string
2nd fret on 5th --> Open 4th string
And finally Open ---> 2nd fret --> Open --> 3rd fret, all on 2nd string


The questions on Cecil Barfield's "Love Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
Standard tuning pitched down 3 frets or so, E minor Position (or at least not a fretted 3rd string)
   * Describe the location of the notes that Cecil Barfield played in the treble of his solo from 1:30--1:44.
Without going note for note, the whole solo is played on:
Open and Bent 3rd fret of the 2nd & 1st strings
Open, 2nd fret & 3rd fret of the 3rd string (with quick hammer-ons and pull-offs at 2nd & 3rd frets)
2nd fret of 4th string.

   * True or false: "Love Blues" never goes to a V chord.
True

"Love Blues" is one of my favorites of the George Mitchell recordings. I'm glad that I finally made an attempt to figure out what he's doing with this one. I love how he shifts from the Open 6th string to the Open 5th string throughout the song. Thank you for not asking about deciphering those lyrics!

I edited one awkwardly worded phrase to a slightly less awkwardly worded phrase.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 24, 2020, 10:40:47 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Dennis McMillon and Cecil Barfield puzzlers? Come one, come all--you don't have to answer all the questions, and can just determine the playing position/tuning for each song if you want. Figuring out the licks is just a war of attrition once you have the playing position/tuning right.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 25, 2020, 04:59:08 AM
I'm going to say Vestapol for the first one, and Crossnote for the second. Haven't yet gone into the detailed lick questions, but it's true that there's no V chord in the second one.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lyndvs on September 25, 2020, 05:57:48 AM
Denis McMillon
Vestapol
.57-.59:1st open,1st string slide 2nd-4th fret,1st string open,2nd string 3rd,2nd string open ,3rd string 3rd fret,
3rd string 1st fret,4th string slide 3rd to 4th fret,4th string open.
coda:2nd string open,2nd string 2nd fret,2nd string open,1st string open,2nd string 3rd fret,2nd string 2nd fret,2nd string open,4th string 3rd ftet bend,3rd string open,4the string open,5th string 2nd fret,4th string open,2nd string open,2nd string 2nd fret,2nd string open,2nd string 3rd fret.
Cecil Barfield
E position.
1,30-1.44:2nd string 3rd fret bend,1st string open,2nd string open,1st string 3rd fret bend,1st string open,2nd string 3rd fret bend,1st string open,2nd string 3rd fret,1st string open,2nd string 3rd fret,2nd string open,3rd string 2nd fret bend release pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret,3rd string open,3rd string 2nd fret pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret,2nd string 3rd fret,3rd string 2nd fret pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret,3rd string open,3rd string 2nd fret pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret,2nd string 3rd fret,
3rd string 2nd fret pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret,3rd string open,4th string 2nd fret,4th string 2nd fret,3rd string open*,3rd string 2nd fret^ pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret,4th string 2nd fret,3rd string open*,3rd string 2nd fret^ pull off to open string,4th string 2nd fret.*pinching open 1st string?!!
Phew amazing how much can happen in 14 seconds...I often tell the wife that.
I don`t think he goes to the V.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 25, 2020, 12:46:43 PM
Apologies for not having much time this week to listen to these so haven't been able to go into the details. But am thinking Vestapol for Dennis Mcmillan's "Woke Up One Morning" and E standard though tuned low for Cecil Barfield's "Love Blues" . And no, not hearing a V chord in "Love Blues" .

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 09, 2020, 11:14:21 AM
Hi all,
I realized that it has been a really long time since anyone has posted new answers to the Dennis McMillon and Cecil Barfield puzzlers. I'll post the answers now--sorry, it got away from me there.

For Dennis McMillon's "Woke Up One Morning":
   * his playing position/tuning was Vestapol tuning
   * In the tenth bar of his first solo, from :57--:59, he played the run as follows: On beat one, he used the slide to go the fourth fret of the first string. On beat two, he played a triplet, going from the open first string to the third fret of the second string and then the open second string. On beat three he slid into the third fret of the third string and on the + of beat three played the first fret of the third string. On beat four he hit a bent third fret of the fourth string and on the + of beat four he resolved to the open fourth string.
   * I used the wrong start point for the third question on "Woke Up This Morning", it should have been 2:31. In any event, his concluding run starts on the + of beat 1 in the twelfth measure of the form, hitting an open second string. On beat 2 + he goes from the second fret of the second string back to the open second string. On beat 3 + he goes from the open first string to the third fret of the second string. On beat four, he pulls off from the third fret of the second string to the second fret of the second string, and on the + of beat four he hits the open second string. In the coda measure one (measure thirteen), on beat one + he goes from the third fret of the fourth string to the open third string. On beat 2 + he goes from the open fourth string to the second fret of the fifth string. On beat three + he goes from the open fourth string to the open second string. On beat four + he goes from the second fret of the second string back to the open second string, and on beat one of the second measure of the coda (fourteenth bar), he hits the third fret of the second string and lets it sustain, concluding his performance.

This piece is one of my favorite performances in Vestapol tuning ever--everything about it is so outstanding: McMillon's singing, his sparing, but really exciting and effective, use of the slide, his strong rhythmic feel, his abundance of ideas. It's a tragedy that he only recorded four titles. And he recorded late enough that there is a reasonably good chance that he was still around and able to play in the '60s or '70s, though I don't know if anyone knows what became of him. He's another of those "what might have been" musicians, of whom there were so many in this style.

For Cecil Barfield's "Love Blues":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning
   * The notes that Cecil Barfield played in his solo from 1:30--1:44, going from highest-pitched to lowest-pitched are: First string--third fret and open, second string--third fret and open, third string--second fret and open, fourth string--second fret.
So it is that for his solo there, Cecil Barfield confined himself to notes in the "blues scale", once again, descending from highest to lowest-pitched: bIII-R-bVII-V-IV-bIII-R.
   * It is true, as everyone had it, that he never played a V chord in the course of playing "Love Blues".

One of the things that I think is most interesting about Cecil Barfield's sound is the notes he chooses to hit in the bass, which Forgetful Jones alluded to in his post. Hitting the open fifth string, a IV note against I chord runs in the treble, and sometimes the open fourth string, too gives the piece an unusual tension. It reminds me a little bit of Robert Pete Williams. Oh, and I added the lyrics to "Love Blues" to the original post on these two puzzlers. The lyrics to "Woke Up One Morning" were transcribed a while ago and are already up in Weeniepedia.

Thanks to all who responded, and I should say that those who did post answers to the questions of how various runs were played, Forgetful Jones and Lyndvs, really did a good job of placing those runs on the neck. I hope folks enjoyed the songs themselves, too. These ones are both really special to me. I'll look for some other songs to post and will stay on top of it better next go-round.

All best,
Johnm



 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 14, 2020, 11:29:28 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested. The first is from Arzo Youngblood, and it is his song, "Swing, Swing".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/qHgc-Y0GlOE

For "Swing, Swing":
   * What playing position/tuning did Arzo Youngblood use to play the song?

The second song is Maxwell Street Jimmy Davis's version of "Two Trains Running". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/k_63zVcz9Dw

For "Two Trains Running":
   * What playing position/tuning did Maxwell Street Jimmy Davis use to play the song?
   * At what point in the pulse/bar structure does the signature lick that he begins the song with start and where does it end, before repeating?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday, October 17. Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 20, 2020, 06:32:40 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Arzo Youngblood and Jimmy Davis puzzlers? Come one, come all! Answer just one question or answer them all.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on October 20, 2020, 11:59:53 AM
Two Trains Running is in standard tuning, E position. The signature lick starts (the first time) on beat two and ends on the downbeat of the next measure. The second time and subsequent times it starts on the 'and' of beat one.
Cool.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 23, 2020, 02:36:45 AM
I agree with David about Two Trains Running. I'm foxed by the first one though!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on October 23, 2020, 09:47:37 AM
Vestapol for "Swing Swing," out of tune in a good way! Sounds to me like the third and fourth strings are both out, but the third is still a major third.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on October 26, 2020, 05:58:21 AM
E standard for both. Swing Swing tuned down.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 27, 2020, 02:18:15 PM
I'll go for E standard for Maxwell Street Jimmy Davis's  "Two Trains Running". But Arzo Youngblood's 'Swing Swing' ??? It's crazy and I love it. A voice in my head keeps saying 'E minor' tuning but I'm not convinced.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 31, 2020, 06:57:11 AM
Hi all,
We haven't had any new responses on the Arzo Youngblood and Maxwell Street Jimmy Davis puzzlers for a couple of days,, so I thought I would post the answers.

For Arzo Youngblood's "Swing, Swing"
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in EAEGBE tuning (though tuned about a full step low)

This was a tough identification. When trying to determine what tuning someone played a piece in that sounds basically like it is played in E position, with the I note of the key that is being played in voiced on the open sixth and first strings, the strings you have to listen for, in particular, are the fifth, fourth and third strings, because those are the three strings that differentiate the sound of the tunings other than standard tuning that end up sounding like E position: Vestapol, cross-note and EAEGBE. What you listen for on those three strings is an obvious open string being sounded. If you know what the pitch of the open string is, you can start eliminating tuning possibilities.
Arzo Youngblood plays an open third string at :01 of his rendition, another at :03, and at :05 he hits the open third string three times in a row. In each instance, it is a minor III note, G relative to a I of E. That eliminates Vestapol as a possible tuning for the song, since Vestapol voices the major third of the open chord on the open third string, and leaves cross-note, EAEGBE and E position in standard tuning as possibilities.
At :08--:09, Arzo Youngblood hits the fourth string twice so that it sustains in a way that only an open string can do. The pitch of that string is that of a I note. That eliminates E position in standard tuning as a possibility, since it puts a bVII note on the open fourth string, leaving cross-note and EAEGBE as possibilities.
At :10--:11, Arzo Youngblood hits a long-sustaining open fifth string that holds through a momentary lull in the constant activity of the tune. The pitch of that sustaining note is a IV note relative to the key he's sounding in, which eliminates cross-note as a possibility, since in cross-note tuning, the open fifth string is the V note of the minor chord to which the guitar is tuned.

What we're left with then is EAEGBE tuning, since of the four possible tunings that end up sounding like E position, it is the only one that puts a IV note on the open fifth string, a root on the open fourth string and a bIII on the open third string. If you get your guitar in that tuning, adjusted to where Arzo Youngblood pitched his guitar, around D on the open sixth string, you'll find out how easily and sensibly the left hand of what he's doing sits in that tuning. Getting what his picking hand is doing is a much taller order! I love this piece and think it's great, such energy, but man, is it ever more difficult to figure out things with strummy, sort of inexact articulation in the picking hand than it is to figure out precise picking, however technical it may be.

For Maxwell Street Jimmy Davis's "Two Trains Running:
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as I believe everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * His signature lick that he opens the piece with starts on the + of beat three in the pick-up measure preceding the downbeat of the form, ends on beat three of the first full measure, starts again on the + of beat three in that measure, continuing through beat three of the next measure, and starts vamping on the + of beat three in that measure, as the vocal pick-ups to the first verse enter there: "But I lo--|| ve"

I sure like this version of "Two Trains Running", as well, and I feel like the way it integrates the vocal with the guitar's responses is really exciting and well done. It ends up having the kind of impact you would think that you would need a full band to get.

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzlers. I think they were both pretty hard, especially the Arzo Youngblood identification. I hope folks enjoyed the tunes, and I will look for some more to post before too long.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 07, 2020, 08:42:16 AM
Hi all,
I have two new puzzlers for you from a pretty neglected player: Sonny Scott. The first is his song "Black Horse Blues" and the second is "Highway No. 2 Blues". To the extent that Sonny Scott is known by fans Country Blues fans, he is probably best known as a sometime guitar duet partner of Walter Roland; the two duo released some records as "The Jolly Two". Here is "Black Horse Blues":

https://youtu.be/CULGDzl9Ans

INTRO

I want to go horseback riding, I don't want to go by myself
Lord, I want to go horseback riding, I don't want to go by myself
I'm goin' to buy me a buggy, so I can take somebody else

Now, hitch up my buggy, saddle up my black mare
Lord, hitch up my buggy, saddle up my black mare
Because you can find me ridin', Lord, on the road somewhere

Lord, I got my stable now, partner, horse is all I need
I got my stable now, partner, horse is all I need
I got money in my pocket, Lord, to buy my black horse some feed

Lord, I rode my horse from Texas, stopped in New Orleans
Lord, I rode my horse from Texas, I stopped in New Orleans
I saw a pretty black mare, baby, pretty as ever seen

Lord, I like my milk cow, but I love my horse to death
Lord, I like my milk cow, but I love my horse to death
So you give me back my black horse, and you can have the rest

My horse got a tail, baby, just as long as my right arm
My horse got a tail, baby, just as long as my right arm
Lord, I rode my horse from Texas, and I'm going to ride him home

The questions on Sonny Scott's "Black Horse Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did Sonny Scott fret his signature lick fill that he plays in the third, seventh and eleventh bar of each verse?

Here is "Highway No. 2 Blues":

https://youtu.be/gjSkPFarAe8

INTRO

My baby quit me, and she's throwin' my trunk outdoors
My baby quit me, and she's throwin' my trunk outdoors
Say, "Come back tomorrow mornin', and get all your dirty clothes."

Ain't got nowhere, just to lay my weary head
Ain't got nowhere, just to lay my weary head
Lord, somebody, done took that good woman I had

If I had my pistol, I'd go down in the woods
If I had my pistol, I'd go down in the woods
Yell out to Jericho, wouldn't do that man no good

Lord, I whupped my woman, oh Lord, I blacked her eyes
I whupped my woman, and Lord, I blacked her eyes
I would've cut her throat, but I was 'fraid she'd die

SOLO

Catched my baby, was on the Highway No. 2
Yeah, my baby, was on Highway No. 2
Lord, the way she treats me, oh Lord, won't never do

SOLO

The questions on Sonny Scott's "Highway No. 2 Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did Sonny Scott fret his signature lick in the third, seventh and eleventh bars of each verse, and place the signature lick in the count of the the measure.
   * Name a blues song from the period that shared the same sung melody as "Highway No. 2 Blues"

Please use only your ears and your instrument to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, November 10. Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 12, 2020, 06:06:46 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the two Sonny Scott puzzlers, "Black Horse Blues" and "Highway No. 2 Blues"? Come one, come all--answer all the questions or just one.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 14, 2020, 08:49:21 AM
Black horse in D standard. Riffs around 5th and 2nd frets with /d shape.

61 Highway, E standard capped up. Melody of Bug Juice, Kid Prince Moore.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on November 14, 2020, 10:12:32 AM
I didn't work on Black Horse.
Highway no 2 Blues I think is standard tuning, A position.
The lick starts on the 5th fret, 1st string, and descends to the 2nd fret, 3rd string. It starts on the 'and' of beat one of whichever measure he starts it in.
The melody sounds like Robert Johnson's Dust My Broom.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 14, 2020, 11:16:29 AM
I agree with blueshome for Black Horse - D standard. His signature lick seems to be based on an A7 chord at first position.
I think Highway 2 is in A standard, agreeing with David. I haven’t worked on detail of the arrangement yet, and I’m not sure of the song with a shared melody.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 14, 2020, 12:10:13 PM
I'm hearing Sonny Scott's "Black Horse Blues" in D standard too
Sonny Scott's signature lick I'm hearing around these 3 chords:
---2---  ---3---  --2--
---3---  ---2---  --1--
---2---  ---2---  --2--
-------   ---2--   -----
-----------------------
-----------------------

Sonny Scott's "Highway No. 2 Blues" I'm hearing in A standard, which is about as far as I've got. Nothing's jumping out at me re a blues with a shared sung melody
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on November 16, 2020, 03:46:22 PM
I haven't fooled with "Highway" but "Black Horse" to me sounds like it's in standard tuning, C position, capoed up. You can hear the third in the bass a lot of the time (granted, possible in a D chord if you fret the 4th fret, 4th string, but a bit awkward), and the I7 chord to me has that classic C7 sound.

Signature lick would be as Old Man Ned diagrammed it out, except 010 to 001 on the top three strings.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 20, 2020, 10:11:13 AM
Hi all,
There have not been any new responses to the two Sonny Scott puzzlers, "Black Horse Blues" and "Highway No. 2 Blues" in the past several days, so I will post the answers. Here they are:

For Sonny Scott's "Black Horse Blues":
   * His playing position was C position in standard tuning. The give-away was just as banjochris described it--when Sonny Scott is in his I chord, he is consistently doing a thumb roll from the root of the I chord to it's third, on the next higher string, the characteristic thumb roll that Blind Blake used in so many of his songs in C. I guess this points out how much more telling the notes being in played in the bass are, in terms of making playing position/tuning identifications than is the pitch at which a rendition sounds. I encourage you all to try to determine playing position/tuning on these puzzlers without ever even checking the pitch at which a rendition sounds--knowing that seldom helps make the identification. The only time it helps is when a person is tuned to concert pitch and playing without a capo, two qualifying considerations that seldom coincide in this music.
   * Sonny Scott's signature lick is similarly right where Chris put it, rocking from the top three strings in a C chord, 0-1-0 to a G7 on the top three strings, 0-0-1, and back.

For Sonny Scott's "Highway No. 2 Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was G position in standard tuning. I think this was a tougher identification. What gives the playing position away here is the IV chord--every time Sonny Scott goes there he does the C chord thumb roll from the third fret of the fifth string to the second fret of the fourth string. Were he playing in A position, he would probably hit a low root in the V chord, E, when he went there, too. The V chord doesn't sound like an E or E7 at all. I think the way Sonny Scott did a thumb roll from the first fret of the fifth string into the open fourth string downbeats and third beats in the first four measures of his verses is a great sound to use in G, and I don't think I've ever heard anybody else do that.
   * For his signature lick, Sonny Scott starts on the + of beat one in those measures, playing the third fret of the first string. On 2+, he brushes the first strings in a G7 position, open second string and first fret of the first string. On beat three, he plays a triplet, hitting the third fret of the second string on beat three, pulling off to the open second string for the second note of the triplet and hitting the third fret of the third string for the last note of the triplet. On beat four, he hits the open third string, and on the + of beat four he hits the third fret of the sixth string, starting a thumb roll into the open fourth string, landing there on the downbeat of the next measure.
   * Phil had a song that shares its melody with "Highway No. 2 Blues" spot on, in Kid Prince Moore's "Bug Juice Blues".  Another song that shares the same melody is Teddy Darby's "Pokino Blues".

I've gone back and transcribed the lyrics of these two songs in the original post where the videos and the puzzler questions are, and the lyrics are every bit as original and interesting as the lyrics that Sonny Scott had for his "Coal Mountain Blues" and his duet with Walter Roland, "Rolling Water". He was not a flashy guitarist, I suppose, but he nonetheless had some really nice and different ideas come through in his playing, too. I think I'm going to keep looking at his songs for a while.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs. I will look for some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 02, 2020, 05:53:47 PM
Hi all,
I've got two new puzzlers, and for these ones the only question will be what playing position/tuning was used to play them. The first is from Kid Cole, and it is his "Niagara Fall Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/DGvsx-I1-ec

What playing position/tuning did Kid Cole use to play "Niagara Fall Blues"?

The second song is from Georgia Slim, and it is his "Separatin' Blues":

https://youtu.be/Qfq4_-fO3sg

INTRO SOLO (Yeah it's bad when your good girl done quit you,ain't got nobody)

Who's that, babe, well, knockin' at your door?
Hoo well, who's that knockin' at your door?
Well, well, it must be that other man, hoo well,well, who lives 'round there at the boogie next door

If you will let him in, I'll pack my trunk and go
Hoo well, I'll pack my trunk and go
Well, well, to see my other rider, hoo well, well, babe, many years, Lord, ago

SOLO (Spoken: Yes, I'm gettin' worried now, too)

I was as good to you, babe, as a poor boy could be
Hoo well, as a poor boy could be
Well, well, if I come back again to you, hoo well, well, baby, sing "Nearer My God, to Thee"

No use of prayin', babe, and no use of bein' sad and blue
Hoo well, no use of bein' so sad and blue
Well, well, I'm back here to tell you, hoo well, well, me and my good love is through

Well, I'm gonna leave you, babe, well, I know I'm goin' away
Hoo well, well, well, I got to go away
May I come back to you again, hoo well, in some lonesome day
Baby, pass, well, I'm goin' away

What playing position/tuning did Georgia Slim use to play "Separatin' Blues"?

Please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, December 4, and please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers. I hope you enjoy the songs and thanks for your participation.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 07, 2020, 02:21:51 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Kid Cole and Georgia Slim puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 09, 2020, 02:14:57 PM
Apologies for not spending much time on these but sort of 'off the top of my head' I'm hearing Georgia Slim's "Separatin' Blues" in A standard.
Not too sure about Kid Cole "Niagara Fall Blues" but I'm thinking D standard initially though I may change my mind on that on closer listening.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 10, 2020, 01:49:51 AM
I’ll say C standard for Niagara Falls, and A standard for Separatin’ Blues.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on December 10, 2020, 06:29:10 AM
Separatin’ Blues I go for A standard. There seem to be a lo of the signature licks associated with this.
Not sure on Niagara Falls.  At firstI thought C but couldn’t reconcile the walk into the IV chord. Still trying to work it out. Now, having spent time with guitar, C.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on December 10, 2020, 12:30:45 PM
C for Niagara, A for Separatin'. I think one of the things that makes Niagara sound a bit unusual is he's using the open 6th string a lot as a melody note in the bass, which is not that common.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on December 11, 2020, 06:40:04 AM
Niagara Falls Blues sounds like C to me.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 12, 2020, 12:07:31 PM
Agree, on listening again I'm hearing Kid Cole's "Niagara Fall Blues" in C, tuned or capo about a half step up. The bass runs seem to flow right out of the C chord. I love the lyrics to this tune. If these haven't been done on Weenie I'm happy to give them a go.
All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 14, 2020, 11:04:31 AM
Hi all,
There haven't been any new answers posted recently on the Kid Cole and Georgia Slim puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.

For Kid Cole's "Niagara Falls Blues":
   * His playing position was D position in standard tuning, as Old Man Ned had it in his initial post. This was a tough identification I thought. Here are factors which suggested D position in standard tuning as opposed to C position in standard tuning:
      1) When he begins his boom-change accompaniment in his I chord, the first three notes he hits in the bass are I, V and III of the I chord, descending in pitch. In a D chord fretted with a thumb wrap at the second fret of the sixth string, you can get these notes by simply hitting the fourth, fifth and sixth strings as they are fretted in the chord, and since each note is played on a different string, they'll sustain slightly into the next note in the bass. In C position, the same three notes are fretted at the third fret of the fifth string, the third fret of the sixth string and the open sixth string. With the V and low III notes played on the same string, playing the III note eliminates any sustain by the V note. I'm not hearing the back end of the V note cut off to get the III note, so that suggests D position in standard tuning rather than C position.
      2) At :07, Kid Cole has been playing in his V7 chord, and in transitioning back to the I chord, he hits a VI note in the bass and very slightly slides it upward towards the I note. For that slide to sound the way it does, the VI note must have been fretted. In D position in standard tuning, that VI note lives at the second fret of the fifth string, and it's pretty natural to do a little indeterminate upward slide from there, ending up at the I note on the open fourth string. In C position in standard tuning, the VI note is the open fifth string, and an indeterminate simultaneous hammer and slide would have to be done to get the sound that's on the record there--not very plausible.
      3) Kid Cole's IV chords do not sound like F chords in how they're voiced. An F chord voices out 3-5-R going from the third string to the first string. What I'm hearing in Kid Cole in his IV chords, which are quite hard to hear in the treble is R-3-R going from the third to the first string, which is how a G chord is voiced, suggesting D position in standard tuning.
      4) It would be odd to be playing in C position in standard tuning for 2:57 and to never once hit the III note on the second fret of the fourth string in C position, but in fact, Kid Cole never sounds that note from the beginning to the end of the song in the chordal playing of his I chord. He plays the note, but only in bass runs. In his playing of his I chord, he always voices it R-5-R-3, which is exactly how a D chord is voiced.

I believe there has been some surmise that Kid Cole was the same person as Walter Colman, and that if not, they were both Cincinnati musicians in any case. If you'd like to transcribe the lyrics for "Niagara Falls Blues", Old Man Ned, I would say go for it, and thanks!

For Georgia Slim's "Separatin' Blues":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as everybody had it

I like Georgia Slim's sound at the very beginning of the song, where he is brushing 7-5 on the first two strings, but also including the open third string in his brush stroke. I think he only recorded four titles, all of which stuck pretty much to one sound.

Thanks to all who posted responses, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs. I'll look for some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 14, 2020, 01:23:19 PM
Thanks for the summary of Kid Cole's "Niagara Falls Blues" John. I really should have stayed with my gut feeling about D standard and not changed my mind! I was tying myself in knots a bit with this one. I'll get to work on the lyrics :-)
All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 20, 2020, 02:37:09 PM
Here's the lyrics to Kid Cole's "Niagara Fall Blues" there are few blank places where I'm struggling to hear what's been sung. Any help with the blanks greatly appreciated.

I got the Niagra Fall blues pretty mama keeps a worryin' you, lordy, lord
I got the Niagra Fall blues pretty mama keeps a worryin' you
I know Niagra Fall blues pretty mama, going to be the death of you

I walked out my pantry, I walked back up my hall, lordy, lord
I walked out my pantry, pretty mama, walked back up my hall
I stuck my head on my ......? another mule was in my stall

I got the blues so bad, that it hurts my tongue? to talk, lordy, lord
I got the blues so bad, that it hurts my tounge? to talk,
I got the blues so bad, that it hurts my baby feet to walk

Now it's come to your window, hike your shade up high, lordy, lord
And it's come to your window, pretty mama, hike your shade up high
Stick your head out the winda, see the worried blues pass by

I look down the lonesome road, pretty mama, as far as I could see, lordy, lord
I look down the lonesome road, pretty mama, as far as I could see
Another man had my wife and I swear the Niagra Blues had me

I got the blues in a bottle, got the rattlesnake in my hand, lordy, lord
I got the blues in a bottle, got the rattlesnake in my hand
How can I live in this world, see my baby with another man

Now it's run here sweet mama, I'm going to get you told, lordy, lord
And it's run here sweet mama, I'm trying to go to get you told
You ....? all this woman ....? such loving jelly roll

Now listen to pretty mama, what is on your mind, lordy, lord
And it's tell me pretty baby, what is on your mind
And you look like your worried, and bothered, grieving all the time

And I woke up this morning, I feel my sheets were wringing wet, lordy, lord
And I woke up this morning, my I feel my sheets were wringing wet
.............? my baby and I can't use you yet

and last scatt sung verse:
la de lo de lo do do de lo de lo do do do, lo lo lo
lo de lo do do, lo de lo de lo do do
lo de lo de lo do do, lo de lo de lo do do

All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 21, 2020, 07:37:50 AM
Thanks very much for posting the lyrics to "Niagara Fall Blues", Old Man Ned. I think I have a couple of the missing lines

   2.3 I stuck my head OVER YOUR TRANSOM, another mule was in my stall

   3.2 I got the blues so bad that it hurts my LOVIN' tongue to talk

   4.1, 4.2 I believe he says HOIST your shade up high, but pronounced like "heist"

   7.3 You ain't the ONLIEST WOMAN IN CINCINNATI THAT'S GOT YOUR lovin' jelly roll

   9.1 And I woke up this morning, my PILLOW SLIPS WERE wringin' wet

I really like Kid Cole's singing, and the song has an unusually pretty melody for a blues, I think.

All best,
Johnm
   9.2 And I woke up this morning, my PILLOW SLIPS WAS wringin' wet
   9.3 TELEGRAM FROM my baby, SAYIN' "I can't use you yet."
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 21, 2020, 11:39:10 AM
Thanks John. I was quite lost on the 7.3 line and with transom in 2.3. I had no idea what that was. Just googled it and it makes sense now. Every day's a school day :-)
All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 21, 2020, 12:09:24 PM
Hi Ned,
I agree, 7.3 was particularly tough. If I had not already known that Kid Cole was from Cincinnati, I very much doubt I would ever have gotten it. Place names in lyrics can be really hard to get. In the early days of the Weenie site, Rivers got a notoriously difficult one, Horn Lake Road, in Furry Lewis' "Dryland Blues"--I'm still amazed at that one.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 22, 2020, 11:07:48 AM
Hi Ned,
In the course of re-listening to "Niagara Fall Blues" when entering it in Weeniepedia, I realized that in 7.3 Kid Cole sang

   You ain't the onliest woman in Cincinnati that sells your lovin' jelly roll

which makes much more sense.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 22, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
Hi John,
Yeah, makes a lot more sense.
Thanks,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 02, 2021, 03:13:04 PM
Hi all,
It's been a little while since we've had some new puzzlers, so I thought I'd post the first ones for 2021. The first song is Walter Coleman's "I'm Going To Cincinnati". The track was recorded in Chicago on February 8, 1936, and Coleman was joined on the track by an unknown seconding guitarist who confines himself to syncopated bass lines. Here is  "I'm Going To Cincinnati":

https://youtu.be/LPfyHaoNvgQ

INTRO

Now I'm going to Cincinnati, I'm gonna spread the news, the fanfoots in Chicago sure don't wear no shoes
REFRAIN: Because I'm goin' to Cincinnati, the times is good, I'm goin' to Cincinnati where they eat fried food
And I'm goin' to Cincinnati, boys, where a whiskey bottle is good

Now when you come to Cincinnati, don't get too full, you're liable to meet the cop that they call Stargel Bull
REFRAIN: Because I'm goin' to Cincinnati, the times is good, I'm goin' to Cincinnati where they eat fried food
And I'm goin' to Cincinnati, where a whiskey bottle is good

Now when you come to Cincinnati, stop on 310 Main, that's where the good hustlin' women get their good cocaine
REFRAIN: Because I'm goin' to Cincinnati, the times is good, I'm goin' to Cincinnati where they eat fried food
And I'm goin' to Cincinnati, boys, where a whiskey bottle is good

SOLO (Spoken: Aw, pick that thing! Aw, [shake your ass, Peetie!])

Now when you come to Cincinnati, stop at Hoghead Joe, where you get your turnip greens and your good hog jowl
REFRAIN: Because I'm goin' to Cincinnati, the times is good, I'm goin' to Cincinnati where they eat fried food
And I'm goin' to Cincinnati, boys, where a whiskey bottle is good

Now I'm goin' uptown, buy my baby soap and towel, to wash under her arms, to keep her right odor down
REFRAIN: Because I'm goin' to Cincinnati, the times is good, I'm goin' to Cincinnati where they eat fried food
And I'm goin' to Cincinnati, boys, where a whiskey bottle is good

Now the meanest man, that I ever saw, a judge in Cincinnati called Judge Les Shaw
REFRAIN: Because I'm goin' to Cincinnati, the times is good, I'm goin' to Cincinnati where they eat fried food
And I'm goin' to Cincinnati, boys, where a whiskey bottle is good

I got a bone in my throat, I can't hardly swallow, there's place in Cincinnati called Locklander Hollow
REFRAIN: Because I'm goin' to Cincinnati, the times is good, I'm goin' to Cincinnati where they eat fried food
And I'm goin' to Cincinnati, boys, where a whiskey bottle is good

SOLO (Spoken: Aw, stomp it!)

Edited 1/17 to pick up corrections from Harry
Edited 1/18 to pick up corrections from dj

The questions on "I'm Going To Cincinnati" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Walter Coleman use to play the song?
   * Where did Walter Coleman fret the introduction he played in the treble, from the start of the track to the first verse?

The second puzzler is Tommie Bradley's "Pack Up Her Trunk Blues", recorded in Richmond, Indiana on October 27, 1930. As on "I'm Going To Cincinnati", Bradley is joined by an unknown seconding guitarist. Here is "Pack Up Her Trunk Blues":

https://youtu.be/NeRTWBw8gy4

INTRO

Everybody here, baby, seem to have a [childish] time
Everybody here, baby, seem to have a [childish] time
Lord, there ain't nobody know, what's on my troublin' mind

Lord, but I may be the young 'un, Lord, take my advice
May be the young 'un, Lord, take my advice
And don't never let the, same woman quit you twice

Don't let your woman know you love her, you do, you have done wrong
Don't let her know you love her, you do, you have done wrong
She'll come in from her work, she'll be done, packed up her clothes and gone

Then you'll catch you a freight train, baby, goin' leave for [Santas Fe?]
Catch you a freight train, goin' leave for [Santas Fe?]
Lord, but I done found out, baby, this ain't no place for me

Because I did everything, mama, tried to make you mine
Done everything, baby, I was tryin' to make you mine
Now it seem that everything you do, it is to worry my mind

SOLO

Edited 1/17 to pick up correction from Harry
 
The questions on "Pack Up Her Trunk Blues" are:
   * What playing position did Tommie Bradley use to play his lead guitar part?
   * Where did Tommie Bradley fret the first four bars of his solo, from 2:29--2:39?
   * Tommie Bradley's playing on the song is reminiscent in some ways of the playing of what other guitarist?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers until 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, January 5. Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 08, 2021, 06:28:07 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Walter Coleman and Tommie Bradley puzzlers? Answer one question or all of them. Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 08, 2021, 09:10:38 AM
Tommy Bradley I’ll go for D standard, straight out of the Scrapper Blackwell play book.
I need to come back on the other piece.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on January 08, 2021, 12:28:58 PM
I agree on D standard for the Tommy Bradley, sounding a lot like Scrapper Blackwell.
He's taking the D shape at the 5th fret (from the capo), up two frets, back, down to D, up to the 4th and then 5th fret, then my ears lose track....
I think Walter Coleman is playing in C standard capoed or tuned up a fret. I think in the intro he slides to the 5th fret on the B string, 3rd, 5th, 3rd, 6th, 5th, 3rd and open on the top string, 1fret on the B string and 3rd on the top string.
Both cool songs !
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 08, 2021, 03:14:05 PM
Agree with blueshome and joe Paul on both these - D standard in the style of Scrapper Blackwell for the Tommy Bradley one, and C standard for Walter Coleman.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 09, 2021, 04:11:18 AM
Agree with C standard for Walter
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 16, 2021, 01:48:51 PM
Hi all,
It's been a while since there have been any new responses to the Walter Coleman and Tommie Bradley puzzlers, so I will post the answers.

For Walter Coleman's "I'm Going To Cincinnati":
   * His playing position was C position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!
   * He fretted the introduction in the treble pretty much exactly as joe paul described it. He picked the third fret of the second string on the + of beat four in a pick-up measure, sliding into the downbeat of the first measure of the intro at the fifth fret of the second string, going from there to the third fret of the first string on the + of beat one. On beat 2 +, he played the fifth fret of the first string and returned to the third fret of the first string. On beat three, he played a triplet going from the the sixth fret of the first string to the fifth fret to  and then the third fret there. On beat four + he went from the open first string to the open second string. In the second measure, he hit the third fret of the first string on 1 +, tying the + of that beat into beat two, and on the + of beat two playing the first fret of the second string and the third fret of the first string together, tying them into beat three. On the + of beat four, he begins a literal repetition of the opening treble run, which repeats intact through measure three, with the difference in the fourth bar being that he concludes it hitting the open second string and the third fret of the first string together, suggesting the V chord, G. It's a pretty spiffy intro, and all of the duets that Coleman and the unnamed seconding guitarist played at this session really sparkled. In the six years that had elapsed since Coleman had recorded as Kid Cole or Sweet Papa Tadpole, his voice had roughened up considerably, and to my taste, the change was all to the good, for singing blues.

For Tommie Bradley's "Pack Up Her Trunk Blues":
   * His playing position was D position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it, and his playing bore a strong resemblance to that of Scrapper Blackwell, as all who responded noted, too. Interestingly, despite his treatment of the time in a manner very much like Scrapper's and using some of the same licks, he is clearly a different guitarist, lacking Scrapper's intense attack and occasional vibrato and over-all finish .
   * Tommie Bradley plays the entire opening passage of his solo, from 2:29--2:39 fretting the first string one fret lower than he is fretting the bent second string, in a partial D shape. He starts at the fifth fret of the first string and the sixth fret of the second string, taking that position up two frets and unbending the second string for a momentary G chord at 2:33, returns back down two frets to where he started, dropping from there down three frets to a D chord 2:34, ascending from there into a kind musical "Twilight Zone" where the wheels really come off for a while and moving the shape to places that speak a different musical language before ending up down at the open first string and the first fret of the second string, in a D9. Gabriel Brown had a similar effect on his song "Going My Way", but in a much more controlled and musically effective way.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs. I'll look for some other puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 17, 2021, 12:02:26 PM
Hi all,
I have attempted to transcribe the lyrics to the two most recent puzzlers, Walter Coleman's "I'm Going To Cincinnati" and Tommie Bradley's "Pack Up Her Trunk Blues", in the post where they were originally presented, at: https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg109902#msg109902 . There are places in both transcriptions that I'm not at all sure about, and I would very much appreciate help with them. Thanks for any assistance with them.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on January 17, 2021, 03:54:55 PM
I'm going to Cincinnati

1.1 Now I'm going to Cincinnati, I'm going to gonna spread the news, the sandfoot in Chicago sure don't bear wear no shoes


Pack Up Her Trunk Blues

1.1Everybody here, baby, seem to have a [childish] time
1.2Everybody here, baby, seem to have a [childish] time

"Childish" is right I think. I thought I heard "jollly's time" a one point.

3.3 she'll be a,  she'll be done ?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 17, 2021, 04:14:24 PM
Thanks very much for your help, Harry. I've made the changes you suggested--thanks!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dj on January 18, 2021, 06:12:15 AM
I think the first verse of I'm Going to Cincinnati is "...the fanfoots in Chicago..."

Stephen Calt (Barrelhouse Words, p.88) defines fanfoot as "an indescriminately promiscuous woman" distinguished from other promiscuous women "by virtue of their physical dirtiness".

And the cop's name in verse 2 is Stargel Bull - Willard R. Stargel, a Cincinnati policeman for 23 years before entering the construction business in 1949.  (Steven Tracy, Going to Cincinnati, p. 62).

The place name in the final verse is Locklander Hollow.  Lockland was an industrial suburb of Cincinnati where the heavily Black workforce was housed in "grubby shacks". (Tracy, p.64)

Unfortunately, Steven Tracy was unable to find any record of a judge Shaw in or around Cincinnati during the 1930s. 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 18, 2021, 06:20:48 AM
Thanks very much for those catches, dj. I'd heard the term "sandfoot" before, but not "fanfoot", and it does match the phonetics better. With the proper names I was just doing phonetic guesswork, and it's really nice to have them nailed down. Thanks! I will make the changes.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on January 18, 2021, 06:48:10 AM
Blind Willie McTell mentions a "fanfoot clown"  in "Your Time To Worry".
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 26, 2021, 06:04:45 PM
Hi all,
I haven't posted new puzzlers in a little while, and I thought I would do so now. The first is from Ollie Rupert, who only recorded two titles, unfortunately from my point of view, since I particularly love her singing. Here is "Ain't Goin' To Be Your Low-Down Dog":

https://youtu.be/pE5TMKuNy9E

The questions on "Ain't Goin' To Be Your Low-Down Dog" are:
   1) What playing position/tuning is the lead guitarist who accompanies Ollie Rupert's first verse playing in?
   2) Name one or two performances in which the guitar playing is reminiscent of the lead part here.
   3) Extra Credit: What playing position is the low-tuned seconding guitar that comes in for the second verse and the remainder of the song playing in, and what other instrument joins the ensemble at the same time as the second guitarist?

The second puzzler is from Tallahassee Tight (Louis Washington), and it is his "Black Snake Blues".  Here it is:

https://youtu.be/Z_m6VRh6GgA

INTRO

I'm cryin', ohhh, where in the world my black snake gone?
I'm cryin', ohhh, where in the world my black snake gone?
I mean now some pretty mama, done run my black snake home

Mama, it must've been a bedbug, baby, a chinch can't bite that hard
Tell me it must've been a bedbug, I mean a chinch can't bite that hard
Then I asked my babe for fifty cents, she said, "Honey, ain't a child in the yard."

I'm cryin', mmmmm, black snake's crawlin' all in my room
I'm cryin', mmmmm, black snake's crawlin' all in my room
I mean, some pretty mama, better come and get this black snake soon

I'm cryin', mmmmm, where in the world my black snake gone?
I'm cryin', mmmmm, where in the world my black snake gone?
I mean, some very pretty mama, now must've done drived my black snake home

Now mama, that's all right, mama, that's all right for you
I mean, mama, that's all right, mama, that's all right for you
I mean now that's all right, pretty mama, 'most any old, any ways you do

Now, you don't know, you don't know my mind
Baby, you don't know, baby, you don't know my mind
You keep your black snake worried, and walkin' 'most all the time

I'm cryin', oh now, black snake's crawlin' all in my room

The question on Tallahassee Tight's "Black Snake Blues" is:
   1) What playing position/tuning did Tallahassee Tight use to play the song?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, January 29. Thanks for your participation, and I hope that you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on January 29, 2021, 04:09:11 PM
For Ollie Rupert's Ain't Goin' etc, I hear this as playing out of E position, standard tuning. The guitar playing reminds me of St. Louis style playing, like Cairo Blues or Skin Man. Reminiscent yet not like it exactly, so this could be way off. I think the backing guitar is in Drop D but an octave below. Are we sure that isn't a bass? Also a Jaws harp joins. Too bad the two guitars are not in tune with each other.

For Louis Washington's Black Snake Blues, first, that is one awful recording and/or trashed record! I think this is in open D tuning, based on him landing on the wrong fret for a moment when he goes to the IV chord at about 1:50.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on January 30, 2021, 12:17:18 AM
Agree with David on the similarity to Cairo, etc., the E position and jaw harp for the Ollie Rupert.

For the second guitar it sounds like A position tuned WAY down to me. I haven't tried it with a guitar in hand but it sounds like to me like the tonic is being played on the open 5th string, alternating with the V note on the sixth string. It also sounds to me like a slide on the 5th string leading up to the open 4th, playing the IV note. The bass for the V chord also makes me think it's a first position E chord being played.

On the Louis Washington I'm leaning toward D standard – it sounds like the third on the top of the tonic, and a first position A7 chord for the V chord. I'm not sure he plays any string lower than the 4th, except maybe where Washington makes that one mistake is that David pointed out. I would almost think he's playing a tenor guitar tuned DGBE but his other recordings I think I can hear lower strings.

These are some tough ones, John, thanks!

Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 30, 2021, 01:30:37 AM
Very tough! Especially the second one, which I can’t begin to decipher. Agree the first one in E in that St Louis style, as David says.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 30, 2021, 04:48:47 AM
E for the Ollie, reminds me of Willie Brown. Second guitar I’m feeling Spanish. The 3rd instrument is a jaws harp.

D for Mr.Tight I think.

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on January 30, 2021, 08:21:32 AM
I'm hearing "Ain't Goin' To Be Your Low-Down Dog" in E standard too. In places the playing of Tommy Johnson and Ishmon Bracey come to mind but I can't put a specific performance to it. I'm struggling with the second guitar other than it is tuned so low that nowadays it would probably come with a health and safety warning. Mouth harp/jaw harp/jews harp for the other instrument.

The second puzzler from Tallahassee Tight (Louis Washington) is tormenting my ears. I'm pretty clueless, but if pushed would put "Black Snake Blues" in E standard also, but only if pushed :-)

All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Lyndvs on January 31, 2021, 11:10:36 PM
Ollie Rupert.Out of E position...2nd guitar playing out of A position.A jew`s harp.
Reminiscent of the playing of Lane Hardin"Hard times",Henry Spaulding"Cairo",JD Short"It`s Hard Times"etc..certainly very St.Louis-y.
Tallahassee Tight - Drop D.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frailer24 on February 01, 2021, 12:13:21 AM
Ollie Rupert:
1st guitar, E standard
2nd guitar, A position, tuned down to B
Mystery instrument, a G jews harp!

Tallahassee Tight:
Vastapol at E flat.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 09, 2021, 09:24:47 AM
Hi all,
It has been a while since anyone has posted a response to the Ollie Rupert and Tallahassee Tight puzzlers so I'll post the answers.

For Ollie Rupert's "Ain't Goin' To Be Your Low-Down Dog":
   * The playing position of the lead guitar was E position in standard tuning, as every responder had it, i think. Well done!
   * The seconding guitar that enters for the second verse was played out of A position in standard tuning, tuned a fourth low, right in the normal range for a baritone guitar, though I think it was a standard sized guitar just tuned that low, judging by the tonal properties--it sounds pretty whangy and loose. And the other instrument was a jews/jaw harp as many of you had it. Banjochris's response gave a good basis for the determination of A position in standard tuning for the seconding guitar.
   * The lead guitar part does seem to operating very much in a St. Louis sort of approach, much like Henry Spaulding's "Cairo Blues" or Lane Hardin's "Hard Times", as several of you noted.

For Tallahassee Tight's "Black Snake Blues":
   * His playing position was D position in dropped-D tuning, as Lyndvs had it. At :26--:31, you can hear him hit the low D on the sixth string, followed by a walk-down on the third and second strings, moving 4-3 down to 2-1 and then 0-0, followed by another low sixth string and a strum of a conventional D chord on the first three strings, 2-3-2. He consistently plays his G chords out of an F shape moved up two frets own the second third and fourth strings.

Tallahassee Tight was really an interesting player, and I wonder if he influenced Gabriel Brown, another Floridian, in his playing in dropped-D. Their approaches are not all that similar, but playing in dropped-D was relatively rare in the era in which they first started recording. If you are interested in Tallahassee Tight's music, I think all of his titles, about half of a CD's worth, are up on youtube.

Thanks to all who responded, I think folks really did well on these puzzlers, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs. I'll look for some more puzzlers to post.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 17, 2021, 10:39:28 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested. The first is Curley Weaver's "Dirty Deal Blues", recorded in Long Island City, New York in May of 1929. Here is "Dirty Deal Blues":

https://youtu.be/2PsT3wARsik

INTRO

When you were down, mama, sick down on your bed
When you were down, mama, sick down on your bed
I brought you your medicine, also brought you bread

Then you's out today, looking good again
Then you's out today, looking good again
I brought you your medicine, you won't even let me in

I go there early in the morning, I go there late at night
I go there early in the morning, I go there late at night
No matter what time I go there, he never cut out all his lights

I'm gonna hire me a taxi, gon' ride away from here
I'm gonna hire me a taxi, gon' ride away from here
My home up the country, mama, I wanna know what I'm doin' 'round here

Hey, hey-hey, hey-hey, hey-hey-hey-hey, hey-hey
Hey, hey-hey, hey-hey, hey-hey-hey-hey, hey-hey
Every man in Atlanta, he treats me like his dog

I ran to the telephone, took the receiver down
I went to the telephone, took the receiver down
I said, "Hello Central, give me Dr. Brown."

CODA

Edited 2/27 to pick up corrections from banjochris

The questions on "Dirty Deal Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Curley Weaver use to play the song?
   * How would you describe the song's bar structure, using I, IV and V to designate the different chords?
   * Where did Curley Weaver fret his signature lick, which he returns to in the third and seventh bar of each verse?

The second is from Alabaman Ralph Willis and is his "Worried Blues", recorded in New York City in 1944 for the Regis label. Here is "Worried Blues":

https://youtu.be/ZfhfNyTg4mg

INTRO SOLO

You know, I done more for that woman, way last Summer, went through the Fall, boys, a couple over there through the Winter
Done more for that woman, good Lord's ever done
Got her a wig for long hair, Lord hasn't give her none

If you don't like your daddy, baby, my coat and ways, get tired of me, baby, why don't you bring me shoes and all, 'cause if you
Don't like your daddy, got no right to carry no stall
Give me my wig I bought you, let your head go bald

Well you know my Mother, she doesn't wanna have 'em, Auntie had 'em, Brother had 'em, you know my Father's the one died with 'em
Woke up this morning, family had the worried blues
Poked my head in the corner, Grandmama had them, too (Spoken: Play it now)

SOLO

She wouldn't cook me no breakfast, get me no dinner, squabbled over my supper, the gall kicked me outdoors
She had the nerve to ask me, matchbox hold my clothes
Had the nerve to ask me, matchbox hold my clothes

CODA

The questions on "Worried Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Ralph Willis use to play the song?
   * Ralph Willis's song is a re-working of what song taken from what earlier artist?
   * What soloing strategy that has been discussed on this site did Ralph Willis employ for the beginning of his solo?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, February 19. Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: rein on February 19, 2021, 04:11:24 AM
I ll give the Ralph Willis' one a go.
 The sound was so much like Blind Boy Fuller, my first thought which of his tunes it reminded me of. That was wrong, because I now think the song is based on Blind Willie mc Tell s Statesboro Blues. So I assumede the key was D, but when I try to copy the feel of the song on guitar, I land on E. The solo is the thing when you slide a chord shape (D shaped E) three frets up-
So: 1. Eposition 2. Statesboro Blues 3. D shaped E 3 frets up to Emin7 with the third in the 2nd string. All best and thanks
 Rein
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 19, 2021, 07:33:51 AM
Haven’t got to the detail of these, but I’ll say open G for Curley Weaver (starting each verse in IV chord); and A standard for Ralph Willis.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on February 19, 2021, 11:54:07 AM
Curley Weaver sounds like open G tuning to me. Thanks to Prof Scratchy for getting me to re-listen to this and change my opinion.
The structure is IV-IV-I-I-IV-IV-I-I-V-I-I-I Note the 14 bar form!
The lick starts on the fifth fret of the first string, hits that note 4 times, then open first string, then first fret second string, open second string, open third string..

Ralph Willis sounds like standard tuning, A position.
Reworking Matchbox Blues by Blind Lemon.
The soloing strategy is play a lick, then move it up a minor third (3 frets).
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on February 19, 2021, 03:07:27 PM
I agree with David and the Prof on the Curley Weaver song, Spanish starting on the IV. Good counting skills, fourteen it is!

The Ralph Willis sounds like A to me with the sliding up 3 frets move. There's the matchbox line in there in the last verse and the verse before the solo is very reminiscent of Statesboro Blues. The playing reminds me a lot of Blind Boy Fuller in A, but I can't think of one song in particular... Untrue Blues partly, Mamie too for the IV chord moves.
Both choices are fun tunes.

Gordon
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 20, 2021, 06:41:55 AM
Going with the Prof, Spanish and A.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on February 21, 2021, 05:57:31 AM
Man these songs are just fantastic. I'd never heard either one before. What a great feeling it is when you get to experience a "new" song for the first time.

Curley Weaver
Might he be playing in Dropped D tuning? A position
IV  I  IV  I  V  I
For the signature riff start in a Long A position. Keep that index finger in place at the 2nd fret and play around the 5th & 3rd frets on the 1st String and the 5th, 3rd and 2nd frets on the 2nd string. Pinky at 5th fret. Middle finger for 3rd fret.

Ralph Willis
I think Standard tuning A position.
The song reminds me of Blind Boy Fuller in style. I can't recall which song though.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on February 22, 2021, 03:27:29 PM
Spanish for Curley Weaver – it's one of the fairly few examples of him playing in his mother's style that she reportedly taught to Barbecue Bob. For instance:

https://youtu.be/R5TXrOq16m8

And Ralph Willis is in A. Musically speaking he's in Fuller mode – some of the licks remind me of "Untrue Blues," but in 12-bar rather than 8 bar format. And lyrically the song is a rework of Luke Jordan's "Church Bell Blues."

Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 23, 2021, 01:12:42 PM
I'm hearing Ralph Willis's "Worried Blues" in A standard, capo around the 3rd fret. Can't put my finger on the tune but it's reminding me of Blind Boy Fuller. The solo strategy is the 3 frets up thing.

Curley Weaver, I can't get past the sound of sizzling bacon in the background, sorry.

All the best,
Ned
   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 26, 2021, 09:57:58 AM
Hi all,
There have been no new responses to the Curley Weaver and Ralph Willis puzzlers in the past several days so I'll post the answers.

For Curley Weaver's "Dirty Deal Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was Spanish tuning, as I believe everyone who answered this question had it. I had not remembered that Curley Weaver ever recorded this accompaniment, so frequently used by Barbecue Bob and Charley Lincoln, too, and as Chris noted, it is supposed to have been taught to that whole crew of players by Curley Weaver's mother.
   * Curley Weaver's bar structure, at least in the front end of the first two phrases recalls a favorite structure used a lot by Booker White and Fred McDowell in later years, starting the first two four-bar phrases by singing over the IV chord in the first two bars and answering with the signature lick in the third and fourth bars. He is really long in the last phrase, following the tagline, so that his structure ends up looking like:
    |    IV    |    IV    |     I     |     I     |

    |    IV    |    IV    |     I     |     I     |

    |     I     |     I     |     I     |     I     |     I     |     I     |

Which gave him a fourteen-bar structure he stuck with throughout his rendition
   * Curley Weaver fretted his signature lick at the fifth fret of the first string, the open first string, and then walked down the second string in a chromatic triplet from there, second fret, first fret, open second string, resolving down to the open third string. Barbecue Bob used the very same lick to the extent that it became almost a mannerism of his playing.

For Ralph Willis' "Worried Blues":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as most of you had it.
   * The song is a re-working of Luke Jordan's "Church Bell Blues", lyrically, as Chris had it. Ralph Willis re-worked "Church Bell Blues" at least twice in his recording career, and possibly three or four times. It's a set of lyrics and phrasing model that seem to have held a special appeal for him.
   * Ralph Willis used the "three frets up" strategy for the opening of his solo, as a number of you noted.

I feel like people really did well on these puzzlers. I sure wish Ralph Willis had recorded more solo numbers, because he was really a good guitarist. I think he's a bit like Gabriel Brown, in having the commercial misfortune of continuing to play acoustic guitar (for the most part) in a period of Blues recording when it seems like the market for the music found that to be passe, and then to be too early to benefit from the renewed interest in acoustic Country Blues guitar that came in in the '60s. Both of these artists just seemed to be caught in a lull in acoustic guitar recordings of the blues, and it's too bad.

I think I'll post the next set of puzzlers sooner rather than later, because I've already identified one really good tune to put up and I just need to find one more. Thanks for your participation, and I hope that you enjoyed the songs.

EDITED TO ADD: I have attempted to transcribe the lyrics to The Curley Weaver song back in the original post for these puzzlers and would appreciate help with any lyrics I may have gotten wrong and the bent bracketed space in the first line of the last verse. It is really a whupped record, and I find it hard to hear. Thanks for any help with the lyrics.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on February 26, 2021, 12:38:23 PM

Can't help you with a definitive answer on the last verse but it sounds to me like "telephone" not "the phone"

3.3 I hear something like  "he never cut out all just right" 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on February 26, 2021, 01:00:22 PM
Curly never goes to the V chord?

4.1 and 4.2, I don't hear freight train, but I can't figure out what he is singing at all. Freight train certainly makes fits the context.

5.3, I hear:
Every man in Atlanta, treating me like his dog.

Maybe 6.1 is I like to telephone, ...     but that doesn't make much sense as the next line, to me.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 26, 2021, 01:36:09 PM
If this is any help at all, in the 6th verse I'm also hearing 'telephone', could it be 'had to telephone' ?

In the last line of the 3rd verse I'm hearing  "No matter what time I go there, he never put out all his lights

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 26, 2021, 02:35:14 PM
Thanks, Harry, Dave and Old Man Ned for the lyric suggestions on "Dirty Deal Blues". I will listen a bunch more and announce any changes I make to the transcription here.

Re your comment about whether Curley went to a V chord in "Dirty Deal Blues", Dave, I usually judge whether someone playing in Spanish tuning goes to a V chord in the course of a blues progression by a couple of factors:
   * Does the player put a V note in the bass, either on the open sixth or open fourth string in the bars of the form in which the V chord characteristically arrives?
   * Does a player finger a Spanish tuning V or V7 chord on the second and third string? If a player frets the second fret of the third string and the first fret of the second string, that's a V7 chord, whether or not he/she puts the root of the V chord in the bass. If the player leaves the second and third strings open and just free-hands stuff in the treble, I don't hear that as a strong indication of a V7 chord, even if the player hits a V note in the bass, though I might give them the benefit of the doubt if they do that.

In Curley's playing of the song, he does a bass run into the open fourth string in the ninth bar, so that does give him a V note in the bass there. He does a bass run from the open sixth string into the open fifth string for the downbeat of the tenth bar. In neither bar does he fret either the second fret of the third string or the first fret of the second string, so there's no chordal indication of a V7 chord in the treble.

So whether he goes to a V chord is a judgement call. I suppose a case could be made for a V chord in the ninth bar, but I don't think you could make one for the tenth bar. To me, it sounds like he just stays in his I chord from the signature lick in the seventh bar through the end of the form. Like I say, a judgement call. In any event, he never fingers a V or V7 chord.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on February 26, 2021, 03:21:39 PM
Some lyrical suggestions on the Curley Weaver, John –

2.3 ...YOU won't even let me in

3.1, 3.2 I go THERE EARLY in the morning...
3.3 ...He NEVER CUT out all his lights

4.1, 4.2 I'm gonna HIRE ME A TAXI, go RIDE away from here
4.3 MY HOME up the country, mama, I WANNA know what I'm doin' 'round here

5.3 ...TREATIN' me like his dog (not totally sure but there's an extra syllable so it's not treats)

6.1 I RAN to the TELEPHONE, TOOK the receiver down
6.2 I WENT to the TELEPHONE, TOOK the receiver down

some bits from Blind Lemon in this one – Electric Chair and Gone Dead on You.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 27, 2021, 06:23:41 AM
That really is great hearing, Chris, thanks so much, I've made the changes, and have a couple of tweaks.

4.1, 4.2 I'm gonna hire me a taxi, GON' ride away from here

5.3 Every man in Atlanta, HE treats me like his dog

I think in 5.3 the "he" is strange at the front end, sounds like he momentarily had a little phlegm in his throat. Thanks!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 06, 2021, 10:48:10 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of more puzzlers for those of you who are interested. The first is Memphis Minnie's solo number, "Chickasaw Train Blues", recorded August 24, 1934, in Chicago. Here it is:

https://youtu.be/IbeX376cytA

INTRO

I'm gon' tell everybody what that Chickasaw have done done for me
I'm gon' tell everybody what that Chickasaw have done done for me
She done stole my man away, and blowed that doggone smoke on me, she's a low-down dirty dog

I ain't no woman, like to ride that Chickasaw
Ain't no woman, like to ride that Chickasaw
Because everywhere she stop, she's stealin' some woman's good man off, she's a low-down dirty dog

I told the depot age' this mornin', I don't think he's treat me right
Told the depot agent this mornin', I don't he's treat me right
He done sold my man a ticket, and that Chickasaw is leavin' town tonight, he's a low-down dirty dog

SOLO

I was down at the railroad track, that Chickasaw even wouldn't let me ride the blind
I was walkin' down the railroad track, that Chickasaw wouldn't even let me ride the blind
And she's stopped, pickin' up men, all up and down the line, she's a low-down dirty dog

Mmmmmmmmmmm, Chickasaw don't pay no woman no mind
Mmmmmmmmmmm, that Chickasaw don't pay no woman no mind
And she's stopped, pickin' up men, all up and down the line

SOLO

For Memphis Minnie's "Chickasaw Train Blues":
   * She used what playing position/tuning?
   * Where did she fret the fill in the third bar of her verse accompaniments?
   * Does her rhythmic feel in this playing position bring to mind another player's time in the same playing position? If so, who?

The second puzzler is the Mississippi Sheiks "The World Is Going Wrong", focusing on Walter Vinson's playing of the song. Here it is (and don't make this ID too hastily--listen a few times):

https://youtu.be/witYU0u_OHM

For Walter Vinson's playing on "The World Is Going Wrong":
   * He used what playing position/tuning?
   * Where did he fret the instrumental response to the last line of the first verse, from :33--:36?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, March 9. Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 09, 2021, 08:01:13 AM
Memphis Minnie plays in C standard. Her fill is something like:

****321************************3**3********************************
*********431*****************************************************
**************210******0******************************************
*******************12**********2*********************************
**************************3**3**********************************
***************************************3***********************

Her style and tempo are reminiscent of Big Bill’s playing in C.
A supplementary query from me would be in relation to the last instrumental verse. Where does she pick the bent C note at round about 2:54?

For Walter Vinson I know I’m being too hasty in saying G standard, but that’s what it sounds like. I’ll be interested in hearing the answer!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on March 09, 2021, 04:56:02 PM
Minnie plays Chickasaw in standard tuning, C position.
The lick is a series of triplets:
first string, 3rd fret, 2nd fret, 1st fret,
second string 4th fret, open first string, second string 1st fret,
third string 3rd fret, 2nd fret, open,
fourth string 1st fret, 2nd fret, fifth string 3rd fret,
then play a partial C chord.
I guess the playing reminds me of Big Bill Broonzy

I think Walter Vinson is playing in modified open G tuning, only the fifth and sixth strings dropped one step, so D-G-D-G-B-E. But possibly in regular spanish open G. Either tuning would work.
If the first string is an E, then he plays a pickup note at the first string, 3rd fret, then triplets
first string 1st fret, second string 3rd fret, first string 1st fret,
second string 3rd fret, 1st fret, third string open
third string 3rd fret (dotted eight note), 3rd fret (sixteenth note), open second string (this is still over one beat)
then land on a open third string

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on March 11, 2021, 01:07:12 PM
Memphis Minnie's "Chickasaw Train Blues" I'm hearing in C and I'm being reminded of Big Bill Broonzy.

Walter Vinson's playing on "The World Is Going Wrong" I'm hearing in G using the open G tuning rather than standard. I keep hearing the 5th open G followed by a slide on the 6th string from the 2nd to 4th fret and then the open 5th string again that is making me go with the open G tuning.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 16, 2021, 06:25:49 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Memphis Minnie and Walter Vinson puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 19, 2021, 07:00:59 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who wanted to respond to the Memphis Minnie and Walter Vinson puzzlers has done so, so I will post the answers.

For Memphis Minnie's "Chickasaw Train Blues":
   * Her playing position was C position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it. Good!
   * The fill in the third measure of her verse accompaniments is played like so: Beat one has a chromatic triplet descending the first string, third, second first fret. Beat two has a triplet going from the fourth fret of the second string to the open first string to the first fret of the second string. Beat three has a triplet descending the third string, third fret, second fret, open, and beat four has a triplet going from the first to the second fret on the fourth string resolving to the third fret of the fifth string. Minnie thumps away on her open sixth string under the run, hitting on all four beats. Dave had this run mapped out perfectly, well done!
   * I agree with the responders that Minnie's playing and rhythmic feel on this song particularly bring to mind the playing of Big Bill Broonzy.

In response to Prof Scratchy's query as to where Minnie did the bend to C in her out solo around 2:54, I would guess at the fourth fret of the third string, then immediately moving the little finger down to the unbent third fret there for the Bb note that follows. I suppose she could have gotten the bend to C at the third fret as well, but that would be a pretty extreme bend of a whole step to be that close to the nut, where even an unwound third string would be fairly taut and hard to bend that far in pitch.

For Walter Vinson's playing on The Mississippi Sheiks' "The World Has Gone Wrong":
   * I believe he was playing in G in EGDGBE tuning, a tuning I had only previously encountered in the playing of Tommy Johnson, who used it to play in C. He could not be playing in G position in standard tuning because in his opening phrase he slides up the sixth string to a G note and then brushes a G on the fifth string and a D on the fourth string on the downbeat of the measure, so this suggests at the very least, his fifth string was tuned down to G. In the treble, he never plays higher than a I note, G on the first string, so it would be easier to execute if he left the first string at E, meaning he'd never have to fret above the third fret. At this stage of the process, I thought he was in DGDGBE, as Dave had it, but in listening to the remainder of the tune I noticed that at a couple of places toward the end of his rendition he thumps on a low VI note E, listen at 2:40 to hear it, and it would be counter-intuitive to be hitting that note while still fretting actively in the treble, unless it was an open string that didn't need to be fretted to be sounded.
   * For the fill, he brushes the third fret of the first string and the open second string on the + of beat one, and on beat two plays a triplet going from the first fret of the first string to the third fret of the second string and back. On beat three he plays a descending chromatic triplet on the second string, third, second, first fret. and on beat four he plays a triplet going from the third fret of the third string to the open second string, dividing the last note of the triplet into two sixteenth notes which are the open third string and second fret of the four string, resolving to the open third string on the down beat of the last measure.

I hope that folks enjoyed the songs, and thanks to Prof, Dave and Old Man Ned for participating. I'll look for some more puzzlers.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 22, 2021, 08:07:54 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested, both performed by Lester McFarland, an early Country musician who was probably best known to audiences of his day as a member of the duo Mac and Bob (Gardner), who recorded over 200 titles from the '20s into the '30s, on most of which McFarland played mandoin. Both players were blind, and met in a school for the blind. Despite not normally being featured on guitar in the duo's recordings, McFarland recorded a number of solo sides, and he was really a good player. The two puzzlers are his versions of "Chattanooga Blues" and "Joe Turner's Blues". Here is "Chattanooga Blues":

https://youtu.be/qu0ZrEZdLfk

For Lester McFarland's "Chattanooga Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the little interior moving vamp behind his singing of the first four bars of his verses?
   * What later, better known Hillbilly Blues recording was obviously based on "Chattanooga Blues", and who recorded it?

Here is "Joe Turner's Blues:

https://youtu.be/-sVYJao7G0c

SPOKEN EXCHANGE: Unnamed woman: Listen here, Joe, you all done goin' away, leave me here? Lester: Gal, if you don't b'lieve I's leavin' you, you just listen, while I sings you this song. Unnamed woman: Boy, I sure is gonna listen.

INTRO

Sweet babe, I'm gonna leave you, and the time ain't long
No, the time ain't long
You don't believe I'll leave you, 'til the day I'm gone

You'll never miss your water 'til your well goes dry
'Til your well goes dry
You'll never miss your baby, 'til he says goodbye

Then you'll be sorry, oh, sorry to your heart
Sorry to your heart
Someday, babe, you and I must part

And every time you hear a whistle blow
Hear a steamboat blow
You'll think of the day you lost your Joe

SOLO

Then you'll be sorry, oh, sorry to your heart
Sorry to your heart
Someday, babe, you and I must part

And every time you hear a whistle blow
Hear a steamboat blow
You'll think of the day you lost your Joe

For "Joe Turner's Blues":
   * What playing positions/tunings did Lester mcFarland use to play the song?
   * Where was the interior ascending/descending line behind the singing of the opening of the first verse fretted?
   * What is the IV chord of the second playing position that he modulates to and ends the song in?

Please use only your ears and guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, March 25. Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: rein on March 25, 2021, 02:20:45 PM
I ll give my answers backwards but it is the same song as Johnson City Blues by Clarence Greene (which I have to admit I never heard until a facebook performance by someone led me to your lesson on that song, thanks for that !),that one is in A, but I don't think this one is in A( the bend  note in the intro that resolves to the tonic). my idea is that is played in G position, and the phrase behind the vocals is on the D string between the 6(E) on the 2nd fret and the open string.

I am not through puzzling on joe turner, but it is funny that he quotes the song that Mance Lipscomb recorded as Ain' t you sorry.
Greetings, rein
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 27, 2021, 11:13:06 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Lester McFarland puzzlers? come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on March 27, 2021, 01:48:57 PM
John -
Can you clarify your second question regarding Joe Turner? Currently reads:

 “Where did the interior ascending/descending line behind the singing of the opening of the first verse?”
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 27, 2021, 02:47:45 PM
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the catch. I changed to language to say what I had intended it to say.
All best,
John
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on March 27, 2021, 07:20:50 PM
Joe Turner’s Blues - sounds like standard tuning, starts in C.

Interior ascending/descending line is on the G string when he’s playing a C chord, same phrasing when he goes to an F chord, then the line is on the B string.

I think it modulates to F, the IV chord is Bb. In F, I think he’s playing alternating bass starting on the fourth string F, alternating with the C on the fifth string.

Sounds like mostly first position cowboy chords to me (except for the Bb, which isn’t really a cowboy chord). Sounds to me like he may have been a fan of Blind Lemon Jefferson.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 28, 2021, 02:00:04 AM
Just spotted this puzzler. I’m puzzled, but I’ll say E standard for the first and C standard for the second.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on March 28, 2021, 10:26:44 AM
Chattanooga Blues

As the Professor said, I agree that it’s in E standard, but tuned down a half step to Eb (slightly sharp I think).

He’s playing cowboy chords for E, A7 and B7 (all a half step flat, but I’m writing it as if in E). He also slides the B7 up two frets.

The interior vamp - sounds to me like a first position E chord, with the melody of the vamp on the open high E, the C# (6th) and the open B on the B string.

As Rein said, Johnson City Blues is the song based on this one.

The County Sales album “Old Time Mountain Blues” that includes the Johnson City Blues recording also has Lester’s K.C. Whistle Blues, done with slide guitar.

Are Chattanooga Blues and Joe Turner Blues on any reissue albums? I think both songs are really great.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 01, 2021, 08:12:48 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Lester McFarland puzzlers? Come one, come all--answer one question or all of them.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on April 01, 2021, 03:15:09 PM
Sounds like mostly first position cowboy chords to me (except for the Bb, which isn’t really a cowboy chord). Sounds to me like he may have been a fan of Blind Lemon Jefferson.

Agree, before he modulates it sounds like he's trying to imitate "Dry Southern Blues."
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on April 02, 2021, 01:34:31 PM
Almost missed the bus for this one.

 Lester McFarland's "Chattanooga Blues":
   E standard for playing position/tuning

"Joe Turner's Blues":
   C standard for playing positions/tuning

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 03, 2021, 01:38:01 PM
Hi all,
I'll post the answers for the two Lester McFarland puzzlers, "Chattanooga Blues" and "Joe Turner's Blues". Here they are:

For "Chattanooga Blues":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as most of those who responded had it.
   * The interior movement that he frets behind the I chord in the first four bars of the verse occurs on his third and second strings, with him rocking from the first fret of the third string and the open second string, where those strings are in the E position, to an open third string and the second fret of the second string, which suggest an A7 (IV7) chord.
This wonderfully economical way of rocking between a I chord and a IV7 chord will always work if you start by voicing the third and the fifth of the I chord (and they can be inverted, with the fifth being the lower-pitched voice and the third the higher-pitched voice), and then resolving the third downward in pitch by one half-step, and the fifth upward in pitch by one whole step. In doing that, you change the third to a flat third, which then functions as the flat seventh of the IV chord, and you change the fifth to a sixth, which then functions as the third of the IV chord. Try it in other keys, and I venture to guess that you'll encounter some left hand moves you've already utilized in other tunes. It's great when something so simple and elegant also sounds so good.
  * The song that covered "Chattanooga Blues" was Clarence Greene's "Johnson City Blues", which many of you had. Clarence Greene's altogether different approach on the guitar made his cover so effective and so much his own.

For "Joe Turner's Blues":
   * His playing position was C position in standard tuning, as I think everyone had it.
   * In his I chord in his verse accompaniments when playing in C, Lester McFarland walked up the third string in the middle of his C chord, open, second fret, third fret, and walked back down in reverse. It is similar to what Lemon did on "Dry Southern Blues" under his C chord, though Lemon just rocked between the open third string and the second fret of the third string, never venturing up to the third fret.
   * The IV chord of the key to which Lester McFarland modulated was indeed Bb, as Mark C had it.

I think it's interesting that in Mac And Bob, the long-time and very popular duo that Lester McFarland recorded in,
he played mandolin on the great majority of the tracks. He sure played guitar well for someone for whom it was not even his main instrument. He had another track, "K. C. Whistle", that you can find elsewhere on this site, probably in this thread, that is really a nice slide piece in Vestapol.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 05, 2021, 01:04:03 PM
Hi all,
It's been a little while since we've had any Hill Country tunes in this thread, so I thought I'd check for some more songs by Charles Caldwell, who has been featured here a couple of times previously. I found two by him that seemed both great performances and good ones for this thread. The first is called "Movin' Out Movin' In", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/ofD1G-9jS10

INTRO SOLO

Who that ohhh, is movin' in?
You move out again
It won't be no more, no more room in my house for you

INTERLUDE

Movin' out and movin' in
Next time you move out, baby,
It won't be no more room in my house for you

INTERLUDE AND SOLO

Won't be no more, no more room in my house for you

INTERLUDE

Won't be no more room, in my, in my, in my house for you

SOLO

Keep movin' out and movin' in
You leave one more time, won't be no more room in my house for you

INTERLUDE

The questions on "Movin' Out Movin' In" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Charles Caldwell use to play the song?
   * Where did Charles Caldwell fret the signature lick that opens his rendition?
   * Where did he fret the repeated notes he played at :27--:28?

The second song by Charles Caldwell is "Down The Road Of Love", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/gJlv3FGuc4w

INTRO

I got a road of love to go
Just can't go by myself
I got a road of love to go
Just can't go by mysel
If you can't go with Slim
I guess I'm gon' have to take somebody else

INTERLUDE

I got a road of love to go
Just can't go by myself
If you just can't go, baby,
I guess I'm gon' have to take somebody else

INTERLUDE

I got a road of love to go
Just can't go by myself
If you just can't go, darlin',
Guess I'm gon' have to take somebody else
If you just can't go
Guess I'm gon' have to take somebody else

The questions on "Down The Road Of Love" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Charles Caldwell use to play the song?
   * Where did Charles Caldwell fret the lick with which he answers the opening vocal line in verse one?
   * Where did Charles Caldwell fret the lick from 1:03--1:09 with which he answers the end of the first verse?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, April 8. thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Dadfad on April 08, 2021, 05:02:40 AM
The questions on "Movin' Out Movin' In" are:
 * What playing position/tuning did Charles Caldwell use to play the song?
 * Where did Charles Caldwell fret the signature lick that opens his rendition?
 * Where did he fret the repeated notes he played at :27--:28?

I would say he probably used standard-tuning, Key of A, First-Position A-chord 002220, but as the "long A" form 0002225. The opening lick was kind of the common "Hooker-Hopkins-esque" lick around that long-A position, slightly added to with additions on the second-string between 002255 and 002233 (emphasizing the one and two strings). And of course playing the rhythm on the open 5-string with his thumb as he played the licks. The actual lick probably being:

----(0)--------------
----/5---3--1-------
----------------2----
---------------------
---------------------
---------------------

For his lick at :27 to :28 I think he used the one and two strings farther up the neck around the Second-Position A  (577655), going between xxxx55 and xxx78 (bending slightly).

Hope I got it right. I'm in my office and don't have a guitar handy.

(B/t/w... My real name is also John M!)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on April 08, 2021, 08:51:40 AM
Charles Caldwell Movin' Out Movin' In
Key of A minor standard tuning
Opening phrase is:
Play 2nd string slide up to fifth fret, third string seventh fret, third string fifth fret, 4th string seventh fret.
The repeated notes at :27 are fifth fret, 1st and 2nd strings, and open 3rd string.

Down the Road of Love
is in standard tuning, key of E minor.
He answers the vocal phrase with a lick starting on open 6th string, 6th string third fret, 5th string second fret, open 4th and 3rd strings together, then landing on 4th string second fret with open 3rd, 2nd, and 1st strings together.
The phrase at 1:03 is:
2nd string fifth fret the first time with the open 1st string, then two quick notes on the same fret, the last one pull off to third fret, then 4th string fifth fret, 3rd string fourth fret, 2nd string third fret. Repeat.

Cool tunes from someone I had never heard.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 09, 2021, 05:05:41 AM
I agree with David for the second one, but I wondered whether the first one might actually be in Spanish, with the 1 chord being played with the index finger on the first fret of the second string to achieve the minor feel?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on April 09, 2021, 09:14:25 AM
I agree with David for the second one, but I wondered whether the first one might actually be in Spanish, with the 1 chord being played with the index finger on the first fret of the second string to achieve the minor feel?

Scratchy – I will admit I haven't sat with this one, but the thing that would make me vote against Spanish on this one would be the V and IV chords he plays occasionally, which sound like regular C7 shapes slid up the neck to me.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 09, 2021, 02:54:54 PM
I was thinking they were barre chords, Chris - but I don’t have the best of ears...
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on April 10, 2021, 07:46:24 AM
Movin' Out, Movin' In is in A, Standard tuning.
The main riff could be played by sliding from 7th to 9th fret on 3rd string, then play 7th fret on 3rd string, 5th fret 3rd string, 7th fret 4th string. Caldwell keeps the open 5th string bass going.
This could also be played with the equivalent notes on the 2nd & 3rd strings. I always speculated that he (and Junior Kimbrough) would move their riffs around depending on what other bits they happen to throw in at the time.
At :27 I think he's playing the 5th fret of the 1st & 2nd strings and then descends from 8th to 7th to 5th fret on the 1st string

Down the Road of Love is in E, Standard tuning- I think for much of the song he mutes the 5th & 3rd strings.
The riff after the first vocal line may be played by first partially muting the E chord then playing Open 5th string, 2nd fret of 5th string, Open 4th string, 2nd fret of 4th string
At 1:03 I think he plays: 2nd fret of 4th string, then play & pull off 2nd fret to the open 4th string, then 3rd fret of 6th string, 2nd fret of 5th string, open 4th string... like throwing a G chord in there.

This is a great album. I was really into what Fat Possum was doing at this time. I was excited when this was released and then instantly saddened by the fact that he had died not long before its release.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on April 11, 2021, 03:15:52 AM
Having got round to listening to this with a guitar I agree with Mr Jones A and E.
I bought cd when came out and it is one that stays in the car to get played.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 11, 2021, 09:00:22 AM
No, Phil...I got it wrong again....
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 17, 2021, 06:58:40 AM
Hi all,
It's been a little while since there has been a new response on the two Charles Caldwell puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.

For "Movin' Out Movin" In":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning
   * He could have played the signature lick at the beginning of the song in a number of places. I believe he began it with a slide to the fifth fret of the second string on the + of beat three, followed by a triplet on beat four in which he went from the third fret of the second string to the first fret, finishing off at the second fret of the third string, while keeping a broken triplet monotonic bass going on the open fifth string. This is what Dadfad had in his response. The lick could also have been played as Dave described it.
   * The repeated notes at :27--:28 are the fifth frets of the first two strings and the open third string, as Dave described them.

For "Down The Road of Love"
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning
   * His vocal response lick starts by hitting the second fret of the fourth string while strumming the first three strings in an E chord at the base of the neck in a + 1 + 2 rhythm, entering on the + of beat four, with the + of beat four and beat 1 tied. On the + of beat two he hits the open sixth string, and on 3 + he goes from the second fret of the fifth string to the open fourth string while droning on the open third string in the treble. The lick then repeats several times.
   * The later lick he starts by playing the second fret of the fourth string, hammering into it twice and pulling off to the open fourth string after the second hammer, then going from the third fret of the sixth string to the second fret of the fifth string and finishing up at the open fourth string.

I hope folks enjoyed the songs, and thanks to those who participated. I'll look for some more tunes to post.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 07, 2021, 01:15:00 PM
Hi all,
It's been a little while since we've had some new puzzlers, and I've found a couple of good ones, I think, so here goes. The first puzzler is from the transplanted Texas blues singer and guitarist, Thomas Shaw, who lived most of his life in the San Diego, California area. The song is his "Working Man Blues", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/u66SiZe9lSo

INTRO

A workin' man, mama, ain't nothin' but a woman's slave
Workin' man, ain't nothin' but a woman's slave
Only trouble you ever have, partner, just try to keep 'em plain

I work hard every day, mama, I work from birth of day to sun
I work hard every day, mama, and I go from sun to sun
I've got to the place, I can't tell, when the day's work is done

INTERLUDE (humming)
I got to the place, mama, where I can't tell when the day's work is done

When the blues come to Texas, come right through my world
When the blues reach Texas, come right through my world
Ever since that mornin', you know, Texas ain't been no good

Hey, bite like a boa constrictor, rattlesnake don't do it that hard
Bite like a boa constrictor, mama, rattlesnake don't do it this hard
Well I knew he was dangerous when he crawled up in my yard

I bite like a boa constrictor, rattlesnake can't bite that hard
Bite like a boa constrictor, rattlesnake don't do it that hard
Well, I knew he was dangerous when he, crawled up in my yard

Now when I move from the country, I move 'em 'round your world
When I left the country, left from 'round your world
Well a rattlesnake in front of me, don't mean me no good

INTERLUDE (humming)

The questions on Thomas Shaw's "Working Man Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret what he played over the IV chord in his verse one accompaniment?
   * Where did he fret the interlude from 1:18--1:24?

The second puzzler is from Florida musician Emmett Murray, and it is his rendition of "Dig Myself A Hole". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/xLl1UD5o6Rs

INTRO

This world is gettin' a mess, you see it every day, when war break out, there's gonna be hell to pay
REFRAIN: I"m gon' dig myself a hole, move my baby 'way down under ground
I'm gon' dig myself a hole, move my baby 'way down under ground
And when we come out, won't be no rush around

I'm gon' put in air condition, just to keep us cool, carry good old whiskey and a whole lot of food
REFRAIN: I"m gon' dig myself a hole, move my baby 'way down under ground
I'm gon' dig myself a hole, move my baby 'way down under ground
And when we come out, won't be no war around

There's goin' to be trouble, you ought to understand, see how them old Russians are takin' Afghanistan
REFRAIN: I"m gon' dig myself a hole, move my baby 'way down under ground
Yeah, I'm gon' dig myself a hole, move my baby 'way down under ground
And when we come out, there won't be no war around

When them things get to fightin', dropping' all them bombs, then me and my baby, we won't have to run
REFRAIN: I"m gon' dig myself a hole, move my baby 'way down under ground
I'm gon' dig myself a hole, move my baby 'way down under ground
And when we come out, won't be no war around

The questions on Emmett Murray's "Dig Myself A Hole" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret his IV and V chords in his verse one accompaniment?
   * Where did he fret his I chord, in the main, for the first four bars of his verse two accompaniment?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, May 11. Answer as many questions as you're comfortable answering--one or all of them, or anything between those two extremes. Thanks for your participation and I hope that you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 12, 2021, 02:51:27 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Tom Shaw and Emmett Murray puzzlers? Come one, come all! Answer as many questions as you wish--all of them or just one.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frailer24 on May 12, 2021, 08:31:29 PM
Tom Shaw:
Dropped D
Played his fill out of an F position at the 3rd
Interlude is a partial C fretted 3 5 5 x x 0 sliding up 2 frets to a D7 fretted 8 5 5 x x 0.
Emmett Murray, all I can figure out is E position, tuned around C. Seems to be using a C7 shape for his I chord a lot.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 15, 2021, 07:45:43 AM
I'm struggling with both Thomas Shaw's "Working Man Blues" and Emmett Murray's "Dig Myself A Hole". "Working Man Blues" I'm thinking E standard, but I'm not confident in that answer. I'm hearing him tuned about a half step low.

The Emmett Murray track I love. Tuned very low, I'm thinking E too. Had hoped for a bit more inspiration over the last couple of days but it seems to have deserted me.

All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 16, 2021, 02:21:38 AM
Haven’t managed to tune down to the pitch of these tracks, but will say E standard for both of them. The Thomas Shaw tune quotes from Blind Lemon’s playing in E for the instrumental break. I was lucky enough to play with Thomas Shaw in 1972 in Germany. He was a lovely guy who insisted on having a group photo taken with the audience during the break!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 18, 2021, 01:59:59 PM
That's a great story about you playing with Thomas Shaw and him wanting the photo of himself with the sudience, Prof! Thanks for sharing that.
Are there any other takers for the Thomas Shaw and Emmett Murray puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 23, 2021, 03:19:46 PM
Hi all,
There haven't been any new responses to the Thomas Shaw and Emmett Murphy puzzlers for a while now, so I will post the answers.

For Thomas Shaw's "Working Man Blues":
   * His playing position/tuning was D position in dropped-D tuning, as Larry had it--well done, Larry!
   * Over his IV chord in the first verse, I believe he is fingering his G chord on the fourth, third and second strings in an F shape moved up two frets: 5-4-3. He hits the fourth string with his thumb for the downbeat of the phrase, then walks up and down the second string, third fret, fifth fret, sixth fret, fifth fret, hits the fourth and third strings twice with his thumb, and after a little pause hits the third fret of the second string twice, kind of hesitantly, before resolving back to D.
   * For his interlude, between 1:18 and 1:24, he starts by sliding into the fifth fret of the second string and the third fret of the first string. He then slides that position up two frets, and then frets the eighth fret of the first string and plays that against the seventh fret of the second string, which gives him a D7 chord at that point. This would lay out pretty naturally in the fretting hand if you used your third finger for the fifth and seventh frets of the second string, your index finger for the third and fifth frets of the first string and your little finger for the eighth fret of the first string.

I think it would be interesting to do a book on Country Blues players who survived into the '60s and later decades who ended up living their adult lives a long way from where they were born--people like Thomas Shaw and Mercy Dee Walton who were born in Texas and ended up in California, or K.C. Douglas and Robert Lowery, from Mississippi and Arkansas, respectively, who similarly ended up in California, or Shirley Griffith, from Mississippi, who ended up in Indianapolis. I won't write it, but somebody should.

For Emmett Murray's "Dig Myself A Hole":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning but tuned very low.
   * For his A7 chord, he's voicing the third of the chord in the bass, so he's working out of a G shape. I think he fretted the fifth fret of the sixth string with his ring finger, the fourth fret of the fifth string with his second finger, the second fret of the fourth string with his index finger, sometimes plucked the open third string, and sometimes got the same pitch by using his little finger to fret the fifth fret of the fourth string. This whole approach to playing an A7 is so original! In some of his D blues, Scrapper Blackwell would finger a G7 like a B7 chord at the base of the neck, moved one string toward the bass and up one fret, like 3-2-3-0-3, going from the sixth to the second string. He would have access to the V note in the bass just by opening up on the fourth string. In Emmett Murray's context, if he wanted to get that V note in the bass, which he did, he had to fret it, at the second fret of the fourth string. I think he must have had really big hands, because that voicing is a "big hand" voicing, like some that Sam Chatman liked to use.
Emmett Murray used the same voicing for his B7 as he used for his A7, but up two frets, at 7-6-4 (7), fretting the sixth string with his third finger, the fifth string with his second finger, the fourth fret of his fourth string with his index finger and the seventh fret of the fourth string with his little finger. I hope that if you're a guitarist you'll try these voicings out--they have such a distinctive sound, and make some really different sounds available.
   * For his opening E chord in his verse two accompaniment, it sounds like Emmett Murray was fretting his fourth string at the sixth fret with his third or ring finger, the fourth fret of his third string with his index finger, the fifth fret of his second string with his second finger, and used his little finger to fret the eighth fret of the second string and the seventh fret of his third string. Different, huh!

It's always exciting to come across someone in this music who had such a different way of playing and hearing things. I take it as an affirmation that it is not necessary to steer right down the middle of the road when you're playing this music; it's perfectly capable of accommodating new and novel sounds. I should say that there is another Emmett Murray tune earlier in this thread that I think I like even better than this one, and I remember how baffled I was when I first heard it. Figuring it out requires recognition of possibilities you may not even have known were there.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the tunes.I'll look for some more to post. I keep thinking I'm going to run out of tunes.

All best,
Johnm

 


   * 

   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 24, 2021, 04:13:38 AM
Well done Larry indeed! Emmett Murray's IV chord shape is too much of a finger stretcher for me, but of late I've been using this shape as an occasional IV chord in E: 5456x0 which I think has a 'different' sound to it and works in certain situations. It probably has a name, but I don't know what it would be!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 24, 2021, 09:52:03 AM
I know what you mean about Emmett Murray's IV7 and V7 fingerings, Prof. They are not only grabby but so stretched out, too--I can finger them, but the prospect of using them in any kind of context that required getting in and out of them quickly is pretty daunting. That IV chord you've been playing in E recently is actually an A7, but a pretty exotic voicing! R-3-7-3-x-5. I like the way you're doubling the third on the fifth and third strings--I'm going to have to try that one!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frailer24 on May 24, 2021, 04:10:16 PM
I've been using a modification of the Prof's inversion, 565xx5 for the IV and V, gives a very unique tonality!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 25, 2021, 01:25:13 PM
And using something similar myself for a IV7b5, 5656xx in an arrangement I've done of the standard 'These Foolish Things'. Small world eh?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 12, 2021, 01:07:47 PM
Miller's Breakdown, Part 3

Since the first two lists of Miller's Breakdown of links to the various songs in the "What Is This Musician Doing?" thread are full, this post will serve as a continuation of the list of links, and will be brought up to date as new songs are added to the thread.


347. Working Man Blues--Tom Shaw  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg111043#msg111043)
348. Dig Myself A Hole--Emmett Murray  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg111043#msg111043)
349. Dark Old World--Big Bill Dotson  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg111369#msg111369)
350. TNT Woman--Sonny Boy Holmes  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg111369#msg111369)
351. Cross Country Blues--Frankie Lee Sims  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg111511#msg111511)
352. Walking Talking Blues--Manny Nichols  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg111511#msg111511)
353. Terraplane Blues--Frank Edwards  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg111767#msg111767)
354. Baby Please Give Me A Break--Archie Edwards  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg111767#msg111767)
355. Cryin' Won't Make Me Stay--Arthur Weston  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg111873#msg111873)
356. Rabbit In A Log--John Lee Hooker  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg111873#msg111873)
357. I Wonder--John Lee Hooker  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg112174#msg112174)
358. Shake 'Em On Down--Booker White   (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg112174#msg112174)
359. I'll Do Anything You Say--Charles Caldwell  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg112609#msg112609)
360. She's A-Looking For Me--Herman E. Johnson  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg112609#msg112609)
361. Baby, Listen To Me Howl--Johnie Lewis  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg112833#msg112833)
362. I Got To Find My Baby--Guitar Pete Franklin  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg112833#msg112833)
363. Walked All Night--Charlie Booker  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg113012#msg113012)
364. Shake 'Em On Down--Furry Lewis  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg113012#msg113012)
365. Stop Jivin' Me--Gabriel Brown  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg113231#msg113231)
366. Decoration Day--Dan Pickett  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg113231#msg113231)
367. Superstitious--Tarheel Slim  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg113376#msg113376)
368. Mr. Postman Blues--Jenny Pope  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg113376#msg113376)
369. Motherless Boy--Spark Plug Smith  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg113617#msg113617)
370. Quarrelin' Mama Blues--Arthur Pettis  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg113617#msg113617)
371. Farewell Daddy Blues--Ma Rainey  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg113825#msg113825)
372. When You Dream Of Muddy Water--Edward Thompson  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg113825#msg113825)
373. Pay Day Blues--Sylvester Cotton  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg113953#msg113953)
374. Hair Like A Horse's Mane--Jim Brewer  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg113953#msg113953)
375. Goin' Up The Country Blues--Arzo Youngblood  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg114061#msg114061)
376. Georgia Blues--Cecil Barfield  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg114061#msg114061)
377. Police In Mississippi Blues--Eugene Powell  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg114292#msg114292)
378. So Cold In China--Eugene Powell  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg114292#msg114292)
379. Slo-Freight Blues--Carolina Slim  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg114475#msg114475)
380. In The Evening--Robert Petway  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg114475#msg114475)
381. Sail On--Pete Franklin  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg114599#msg114599)
382. Take Me Back To Mama--Shirley Griffith  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg114599#msg114599)
383. Dresser Drawer Blues--Mott Willis  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg115892#msg115892)
384. Bad Night Blues--Mott Willis  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg115892#msg115892)
385. 1000 Women Blues--Homesick James  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg116172#msg116172)
386. Sugar Coated Love--Cecil Barfield  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg116172#msg116172)
387. Mississippi Flat--William "Do-Boy" Diamond  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg116662#msg116662)
388. Shaggy Hound Blues, Take 2--William "Do-Boy" Diamond  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg116662#msg116662)
389. Trashy Gang Blues--Mott Willis  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg116872#msg116872)
390. Ain't No Lovin', Ain't No Gettin' Along--Jack Owens  (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg116872#msg116872)
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 07, 2021, 06:32:59 AM
Hi all,
It's been a while since we've had any new puzzlers. I've got a couple now, and for these we'll just look for identifying the playing position/tuning. The first one is Big Bill Dotson doing "Dark Old World", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/OTPc3OVRKIQ

What playing position/tuning did Big Bill Dotson use to play "Dark Old World"?

The second song is by Sonny Boy Holmes, and it is "TNT Woman". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/HRjcJLDUT7M

What playing position/tuning did Sonny Boy Holmes use to play "TNT Woman"?

Please use only your ears and your instrument to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday, July 10. Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on July 08, 2021, 05:23:39 AM
I’ll go in feet first: BB Dotson drop D, SB Holmes E standard.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on July 11, 2021, 09:20:01 AM
For Sonny Boy Holmes "TNT Woman" I'm thinking  E, standard tuning.

I'm finding places to get into hearing where this piece is coming from but for some reason my ears are having trouble with Big Bill Dotson's "Dark Old World". Maybe it's the slight echo effect of the recording that's throwing me but all I've got so far is A, standard about a half step low (?)

All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 11, 2021, 03:10:47 PM
I’ll say A for Big Bill Dotson and E for Sonny Boy.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 15, 2021, 08:57:59 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Big Bill Dotson and Sonny Boy Holmes puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frailer24 on July 20, 2021, 12:52:27 PM
Big Bill Dotson seems to be in A standard, capoed 3 up.
Going with E for Sonny Boy.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on July 20, 2021, 03:09:42 PM
I second Frailer.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 26, 2021, 10:40:06 AM
Hi all,
It's been a while since there have been any new responses to the Big Bill Dotson and Sonny Boy Holmes puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.

For Big Bill Dotson's "Dark Old World":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as just about everybody had it.

For Sonny Boy Holmes' "TNT Woman":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as everyone had it.

Assuming that both of these performances were recorded in the post-war period, they provide yet another reminder that for solo blues players of whatever era, maintaining a consistent form with a consistent meter over the course of a rendition turns out to have been way down on the list of musical priorities. On his piece, Big Bill Dotson used IV and V chords interchangeably on occasion, and Sonny Boy Holmes played his instrumental fills to their logical conclusions, however that may have played out with regard to the meter. It seems that the primary impetus for maintaining any kind of formal or metric consistency only really comes into play when the blues becomes an ensemble music. Even then, there are early instances of ensemble blues playing in which the form and meter are treated every bit as variably as on solo cuts--the early Sleepy John Estes cuts with Yank Rachell and Jab Jones come to mind in this regard, and hearing how Yank and Jab are with Sleepy John every step of the way really makes you appreciate their focus and musicianship. You get some tense moments in some later ensemble blues recordings (Lil' Son Jackson, Smokey Hogg and K. C. Douglas come to mind) when the featured artist simply is unable to maintain the formal and metric consistency his accompanists are presuming he's going to be operating with, and the accompanists are not good enough listeners or paying enough attention to accommodate the formal and metric variations that the leader executes in the moment.

What one is left with is the impression that, within the musical culture that the blues grew up and evolved in, the sense of what constitutes a blues is much looser and less prescriptive than we may be accustomed to thinking of it being. At this point, I'm dubious as to whether the concept of a certain number of bars, as pertains to form, even comes into play. It seems much more likely that what is thought of is vocal phrases and instrumental responses, and working within that very loose framework, lyric archetypes, like AAB,  or chorus blues of various lengths. If you're clear in your own understanding of what a blues is, you recognize a blues in all its variations, just as you can identify what you consider not to be a blues, by virtue of essential qualities that you feel are missing in a rendition.

Thanks to all who responded to the puzzlers and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.

All best,
Johnm

 

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: eric on July 26, 2021, 12:33:09 PM
I don't always submit answers to these puzzlers, but I always listen, and appreciate hearing artists unknown to me and especially your breakdown of the tunes.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 05, 2021, 03:38:38 PM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested. The first is Frankie Lee Sims' "Cross Country Blues". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/rTZZsSYRi3g

The questions on "Cross Country Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Frankie Lee Sims use to play the song?
   * Where did Frankie Lee Sims fret the descending run he plays in his solo from 1:48 to 1:51?
   * What soloing strategy did Frankie Lee Sims use at the very beginning of his solo?

The second puzzler is Manny Nichols' "Walking Talking Blues". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/egaPnxM_Uvo

The questions on "Walking Talking Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Manny Nichols use to play the song?
   * Where did Manny Nichols fret the beginning of his solo that follows his first verse, at :36?
   * What did Manny Nichols do when he came to his V chords, and where did he fret them?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses to the questions before 8:00 AM your time on Sunday, August 8. Thanks for your participation and I hope that you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 10, 2021, 08:49:30 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Frankie Lee Sims and Manny Nichols puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on August 10, 2021, 01:22:08 PM
Frankie Lee Sims:

Drop D, D position, but he starts with a bend on the 6th fret on the B string with the A on the first string.

The solo run:
Starts on 2nd string 5th fret bend. I think he plays the C note at the 5th fret G string before shifting his hand down.

Not sure about strategy, but he starts with a 3rd (F#) and fifth (A) on top two strings and slides up three frets to a fifth and flat seventh.

There’s also a Lonnie Johnson-ish G riff in the song.

Manny Nichols:

Great stuff!

In E standard first position. I’m not really sure about the back strums. Maybe just E major, maybe there’s a seventh in there sometimes. I’d have to slow it down to hear it clearly.

The solo:

A -
X07650, lets the two E notes ring. Love the B-Bb-A-G-E walk down.

The five chord sounds like he’s including the open high E, X21200.

I also think I hear some sixths in his E chords in a couple of spots.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 11, 2021, 01:26:31 AM
Agree with Mark! Three frets up strategy on start of FLS instrumental?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on August 11, 2021, 03:00:13 AM
I’m with the others.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 13, 2021, 06:03:58 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Frankie Lee Sims and Manny Nichols puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on August 16, 2021, 09:30:07 PM
For Frankie Lee Sims Cross Country Blues, I say he is playing in D, Drop-D tuning.

The descending passage, triplets with a single pickup note, could be played like this
2nd string sixth fret F bent up a little, fifth fret E on down beat, third fret D, first fret C,
on 2nd beat, 3rd string second fret A open G, 4th string third fret F,
on 3rd beat, open G, 4th string third fret F, open G,
on 4th beat, 4th string third fret F, open G, 4th string third fret F,
open D at end of run, on the down beat.
This all could also be played at the fifth fret position, ending on the 5th string fifth fret D.

He employs the '3 frets up' idea in his solo.


For Manny Nichols' "Walking Talking Blues", I think he is playing in E, standard tuning.

His solo starts with an A chord at the fifth fret, he slides into the C# on 3rd string, sixth fret.

He liked to walk up to his 5 chord, from the 6th string, fourth fret, open 5th string, 5th string first fret, landing on the B at the second fret. He fingered a partial B7 chord, just B D# A, then open 2nd and first strings.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on August 18, 2021, 02:30:24 PM
Quick answers without my guitar handy (and not a ton of time to examine the specific questions).

Frankie Lee Sims I believe is in Drop D tuning. I couldn't really hear the low D note until the end of the song, when I think it's audible during the start of the outro.

Manny Nichols I believe is in standard tuning E position.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 24, 2021, 08:35:38 AM
Hi all,
The Frankie Lee Sims and Manny Nichols puzzlers have been up for a while with no new responses so I'll post the answers.

For Frankie Lee Sims' "Cross Country Blues":
   * His playing position was D in dropped-D tuning, as I think everyone had it. Well done!
   * Frankie Lee started the descending run from 1:48--1:51 on the + of beat one of a measure. On the + of that beat one he played a bent fifth fret of the second string. On beat two he played a triplet, going from, I believe, the unbent fifth fret of the second string to the third fret of the second string and from there to the first fret of the second string. On beat three he played another triplet, walking down the third string chromatically, second fret to first fret to open third string. On beat four he played a final triplet, going from the third fret of the fourth string up to the open third string and back again, concluding the run on the downbeat of the next measure with the open fourth string.
   * He began his solo utilizing the "three frets up" idea, as everybody had it.

This is an unusually loose-sounding take from Frankie Lee. I always love his singing and playing, but a couple of times on this one, it almost sounds like the wheels were going to come off, especially in the solo. What a great singer!

For Manny Nichols' "Walking Talking Blues":
   * His playing position was E in standard tuning, as everyone had it.
   * He opened his solo on a IV chord, A, with a big slide into the seventh fret of the fourth string and the sixth fret of the third string, going from there to a unison of the fifth fret of the second string and the open first string. Mark C had this spot on, as did Dave.
   * For his V chord, he liked to walk up the fifth string chromatically from the open fifth string to the second fret and then explode into the upper four strings, simply fretting the first fret of the fourth string, and leaving the first three strings open. A lot of players liked to leave the first string open in a B7 chord in an E blues--Manny Nichols is one of the few I've heard who also liked to leave the third string open. It makes the V chord sound augmented, with that open G string in there, which is the #V of B. It's also kind of Flamencoey-sounding.

Boy, did Manny Nichols play hard from the picking hand and get a big sound! His thumb-struck notes sound like a drum.

Thanks to all who participated and I hope you enjoyed the songs. I'll look for some more.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on August 24, 2021, 02:46:51 PM
Thanks for doing these breakdowns John. I always learn something interesting I try to keep in my toolbox.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 24, 2021, 03:11:14 PM
Well thanks for participating, Mark. It's the folks who participate who really make this thread go, from my point of view. I appreciate that engagement with the performances, and I've noted that the folks who participate regularly are pretty routinely right about playing position/tuning on the songs, which is by far the most important thing to be able to identify, I think. If you get that right, answering any of the other questions is pretty much just a matter of hanging in there and trying things until you've got it.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 04, 2021, 02:45:30 PM
Hi all,
It's been a while since we've had some new puzzlers and I've found a couple for those of you who might be interested. The first is Frank Edwards' "Terraplane Blues". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/sXHwiSFcMU0

The questions on "Terraplane Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Frank Edwards use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret his signature lick, from :21--:24?

INTRO SOLO

I said, I'm sad and lonesome, Lord, what I'm gonna do
I say, I'm sad and lonesome, sayin' Lord, what I'm gonna do
Say, I'm gon' buy me a Terraplane, I swear and a V-8, too

Hey, I'm, gonna put 'em both there together, put 'em out on the road, take both, sure, mama, got a good heavy load, now,
I'm sayin', I'm sad and lonesome, Lord, what I'm gonna do
Say, I'm gonna step on that 'celerator, 'til that gas come through

Say, my gal, she quit me now, man, both a level lane, didn't wanta come back, afford that Terraplane
I"m cryin', please, friend, please, let me ride with you
Say, I got room for two or three more, I swear, and you, too

She's sayin', "Stop now, Frank. Let's get a sack of flour. How can I stop the Terraplane makin' ninety miles an hour
I"m cryin', please friend, please let me ride with you
Say, I'm gon' treat your 'celerator, 'til that gas come through 

The second puzzler is from Archie Edwards, and it is his recording of "Baby, Please Give Me A Break". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/6Vx08Bl3oag

The questions on "Baby, Please Give Me A Break" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Archie Edwards use to play the song?
   * What are the first two chords in his chord progression and where did Archie Edwards fret them?

INTRO SOLO

See the little old girl, coming' down from the street, sharper than a tack from her head to her feet
REFRAIN: She got me beggin', "Baby, won't you please give me a break?
Won't you tell me how you think my poor heart could take, baby, won't you please give me a break?"

Like the way you look, baby, crazy about your smile, said the whole world will agree, you a beautiful child
REFRAIN: And I'm still beggin', "Baby, won't you please give me a break?
Won't you tell me how you think my poor heart could take, baby, won't you please give me a break?"

SOLO

Like the way you look, baby, crazy 'bout your shape, when you walk down the street, put my mind in space
REFRAIN: I'm still beggin', "Baby, won't you please give me a break?
Won't you tell me how you think my poor heart could take, baby, won't you please give me a break?"

SOLO

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, October 7. Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 08, 2021, 07:06:54 AM
Frank Edwards is a new one for me. Lovely relaxed feel to his delivery, which for me, brought to mind Sleepy John Estes. I'm hearing this in Open G tuning.

Archie Edwards' "Baby, Please Give Me A Break" I'm hearing in standard tuning, played out of A. First two chords in his chord progression are a D7 shape up at the 9th fret ie
---9
---8
---9

and an A at the 5th fret:
---5
---5
---6
---7

All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 09, 2021, 07:16:16 AM
I hear the first one in G standard. I’m having difficulty hearing the signature lick under the harmonica, but it sounds like he could be going from first position G to second position D7 then down to first position C before returning to G.

The second one is in A standard. I hear the first two chords as x0x9 10 9 and x0xx75
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 12, 2021, 08:57:08 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers want to try the Frank Edwards and Archie Edwards puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on October 13, 2021, 04:46:37 AM
I’m thinking Spanish and A standard
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 17, 2021, 02:30:39 PM
Hi all,
We haven't had any new responses on the Frank Edwards and Archie Edwards puzzlers in the past couple of days, so I'll post the answers.

For Frank Edwards' "Terraplane Blues":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning, as Old Man Ned and Prof Scratchy had it. You can tell it's not Spanish because when he goes to his IV7 chord, he voices the root in the bass and plays a regular C7 shape. To do that in Spanish you'd have to be fretting the fifth fret of the fifth string.
   * For his signature lick, played for example at :21--:24, he goes from the open fourth string to the fifth fret of the fourth string, from there back to the open fourth string, then moving to the first fret of the fifth string, and from there to the second fret of the sixth string, resolving upward to the third fret of the sixth string, the root of his I chord.

A week or so ago, I posed a question on the Main Forum as to whether anyone could think of a Country Blues guitarist who relegated the guitar so completely to a back-up role as did Sleepy John Estes. It now occurs to me that Frank Edwards is close to Sleepy John in this regard, pretty much eschewing any kind of hot licks, mostly strumming chords and keeping time, with an occasional bass run, like the signature lick in his version of "Terraplane Blues". Peter Lowry put out a really nice album of his music on the Trix label around 1970. I've always found Frank Edwards' singing of his lyrics a real transcription challenge.

For Archie Edwards' "Baby Please Give Me A Break":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as everyone had it--well done!
   * The first two chords in Archie Edwards' progression are an A7, voiced X-0-7-9-8-9, going from the sixth string to the first string and an A diminished 7 chord, voiced X-0-4-5-4-5, going from the sixth string to the first string. It's a neat kind of variation on the Scrapper Blackwell/Robert Johnson opening move when playing in A standard, which on the A7 voices the first three strings identically to Archie Edwards, but which for the A diminished 7 simply moves the first three strings down one fret, to 8-7-8. And since diminished 7 chords repeat and invert themselves every three frets, you can see how Archie Edwards' version works. It suggests a way of varying a move to a diminished 7 chord that could be duplicated in other songs, in other keys that use that chord.

Thanks to Old Man Ned, Prof Scratchy and blueshome for participating, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs.

All best,
Johnm   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 17, 2021, 03:56:43 PM
Prof Scratchy should take all the credit for getting Frank Edwards' "Terraplane Blues" in G, standard tuning. I went for open G (Spanish tuning) in my answer  :)
All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: dj on October 18, 2021, 06:18:34 AM
Quote
I hope folks enjoyed the songs

I always enjoy the more obscure songs you dig up John, as well as the musical analysis.  I have to say that I particularly enjoyed discovering Archie Edwards via Baby Please Give Me A Break.  I'd never paid much attention to Edwards, and discovering him via this thread led me not only to him but to the whole Living Blues USA series of LPs recorded by Siegreied Christmann on a trip around the US in 1980. 

For anyone not familiar with the series, you can find info on all the LPs in Stephan Wirz's L+R discography here: https://www.wirz.de/music/lipprau.htm (https://www.wirz.de/music/lipprau.htm)

And a bit odf discussion about the series here at Weenie Campbell from 13 years ago here: https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=5172.0 (https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=5172.0)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 19, 2021, 12:03:49 PM
I'm glad you enjoyed finding out about Archie Edwards, dj. A couple more of his songs have had their lyrics transcribed here. You can find them in Weeniepedia and then link back to where they were posted on the Forum and listen to his recordings of them. Thanks, too, to Old Man Ned for pointing out my error in remembering who posted what in the response to to the most recent puzzler. I need to review the responses before posting the answers and not rely solely on my memory of them.
All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 02, 2021, 06:11:42 AM
Hi all,
It's been a little while since I posted some new puzzlers and I have a couple of performances I particularly like, so I thought I'd post them for any interested parties. The first is from the St. Louis musician Arthur Weston, a St. Louis musician who had just one recording released under his name, on the Testament label. The song is "Cryin' Won't Make Me Stay", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/pDfr-W1JFNs

The questions on "Cryin' Won't Make Me Stay" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Arthur Weston used to play the song?
   * Where did Arthur Weston fret his signature lick, as in :09--:13, and how did he articulate it in his picking hand?

INTRO

Well I'm going and I'm going, crying won't make me stay
Well I'm going, I'm going, and your crying won't make me stay
Well, the more you cry, the further you drive me away

If you ever been down, you know just how I feel
If you ever been down, you know just how I feel
Like some broke-down engine that ain't got no driver's wheel

Just take me, baby, I can't be bad no more
Now then, take me, baby, I can't be bad no more
Well, I'm tired of you foolin' around with old Mist' So-And So

The second song is from 1949 acoustic sessions by John Lee Hooker, and it is his version of "Rabbit In A Log" (though he sings it "rabbit on the log"). Here is "Rabbit In A Log":

https://youtu.be/vZAA3jizHA4

The questions on "Rabbit In A Log" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did John Lee Hooker use to play the song?
   * Where did John Lee Hooker play the first three notes in his rendition?
   * Where did John Lee Hooker fret the instrumental interlude from :19--:29?

Rabbit, rabbit, rabbit on the log, possum up the tree

Rabbit told the possum, "Shake those 'simmons down. Shake those 'simmons down."

INTERLUDE

Rabbit, rabbit, rabbit on the log, I ain't got no rabbit dog, got no rabbit dog
Rabbit told the possum, "Shake those 'simmons down."

INTERLUDE

Way down, way down, way down, way down in old [          ]
Rabbit told the possum to shake those 'simmons down, shake those 'simmons down
Possum told the rabbit, possum told the rabbit, "You watch the dog and I'll shake the 'simmons down. You watch the dog and I shake the 'simmons down."

INTERLUDE

Way back, way back, way back, headed to my shanty, way back, mmm,
Way back, way back, way back, way back

Rabbit, rabbit on the log, rabbit on the log and I ain't got no rabbit dog, got no rabbit dog
Rabbit told the possum, "Shake those 'simmons down now, shake those 'simmons down."

INTERLUDE

(Spoken: Yeah, it's the dog.) Ooo, ooo, ooo. Ooo, ooo, ooo. Ooo, ooo, ooo.
Shake those 'simmons down, ooo, ooo, ooo, shake those 'simmons down
Possum told the rabbit, "You watch for the dog. You watch for the dog and I'll shake those 'simmons down, oh Lord
Ooo, ooo, ooo. Ooo, ooo, ooo. Me and my dog, we gonna go and on, go out in the woods. Ooo, ooo, ooo. Shake them 'simmons down

INTERLUDE

Headed way back, way back, way back, to my shanty, way back, way back, way back
Hounds on my track, chickens on my back, headed way back, to my shanty, way back, mmm

INTERLUDE

Shake those 'simmons, shakin' 'em down,
Rabbit told the possum, "Shake those 'simmons, shake 'em down."
Possum told the rabbit, possum told the rabbit, "You watch for the dog, I'll shake the 'simmons down, I shake the 'simmons down, shake them down." Mmm, mmm, mmm, mmm

Headed way back, to my shanty, head way back
Moon is a-risin', moon is a-risin'. Possum in the log, possum's a-walkin'
Way way back, way way back
 
Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, November 5. Thanks for your participation, and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 03, 2021, 06:07:20 AM
Tentatively I’ll put Arthur Weston in C standard up a fret.
JLH - Spanish at C. The lick is bent 3rd string 3rd fret with the open 2nd string.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on November 03, 2021, 03:52:34 PM
I’m going to go for D standard for Arthur and open D tuned low for JLH.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on November 05, 2021, 05:24:23 PM
Cryin' won't Make Me Stay is in open D tuning, actually pitched around C#, so lowest to highest strings are D-A-D-F#-A-D.
I think the signature lick is a pull off where the 4th, 3rd, and 2nd strings are fretted at the fifth fret and pulled off to let open strings ring, then a thumb roll in the bass: Fourth fret 6th string, then open 5th string. Then the 4th, 3rd, and 2nd strings are played as before, followed by the thumb playing  the open 5th string and the open 6th string.

It maybe, or sometimes, he slides into the fourth fret 6th string when moving from the 6th to the 5th string. Or hammers from open 6th to the fourth fret, then strikes the open 5th.


Rabbit in a Log sounds like a C tuning - I came up with low to high: C-G-C-G-C-E. Although I couldn't hear the low string at all. The first 3 notes are open 3rd string, hammered to the second fret, then open 2nd string.
The interlude melody is fretted like this, and the third fret of the second string is squeezed/bent for a higher note:
(sorry for the crude tab)
           |downbeats here |             |             |
string:1     3   3           3 1 0         3             0
string:2 0 3   3   3 0   0 3       0   0 3   3   0   0 3     0 0
string:3                                       3           3
string:4
string:5
string:6

There's a bunch of rhythmic strumming or brushing of available lower open strings whilst playing the melody.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 08, 2021, 09:56:53 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers on the Arthur Weston and John Lee Hooker puzzlers? I think both of these tunes have legs and can keep going for a little while longer.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 08, 2021, 01:22:50 PM
For Arthur Weston's "Cryin' Won't Make Me Stay" I'm thinking open D tuning too, though where he frets his signature lick and how he articulates it have me scunnered at the moment.

John Lee Hooker's "Rabbit In A Log" is like nothing I've heard from him before. I'm going to take a punt on this and go for G, standard tuning, capo at the 5th fret, so it sounds like C. That's my first impression. May come back to it after I've had a lie down. For some reason I can't get 'Boogie Chillun' out my head now.

All the Best,
Ned

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on November 08, 2021, 06:33:53 PM
Crying Won’t Make Me Stay
Sounds to me like open G tuning turned down a half step, but played in D (C#). Top repeating phrase - 3rd fret 2nd string to open 2nd string to second fret third string. Sounds to me like he might be playing the open first
string in unison with the fretted (3rd fret) second string and also droning the open top string along with the open 2nd string.

Rabbit in a Log - sounds to me like open G tuning capoed at the 5th fret, so in Key of C. Starts off on fourth string open, hammers up two frets then open 3rd string.

00:19 section - bends third string at 3rd fret, then open first string. Throws in a fourth note (F) on first fret second string. Also plays the 7th at 3rd fret fourth string.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on November 08, 2021, 07:37:18 PM
Quote
how he articulates it have me scunnered at the moment.
/quote]

Lol, I've never heard the word 'scunnered" before... very expressive.

Hope things in the EU are ok, US opened its borders today.... which makes it a glorious day here on the border. 

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on November 09, 2021, 01:16:45 PM
Weston's song reminds me of Fred McDowell's "Trouble Everywhere I Go":

https://youtu.be/V1X8-nxt1iw

Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 10, 2021, 04:25:45 AM
Quote
how he articulates it have me scunnered at the moment.
/quote]

Lol, I've never heard the word 'scunnered" before... very expressive.

Hope things in the EU are ok, US opened its borders today.... which makes it a glorious day here on the border.

We are no longer in the EU in the UK and our country is being destroyed by our mini-Trump, Johnson.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 12, 2021, 10:08:56 AM
Hi all,
It's been a little while since there has been a new response to the Arthur Weston and John Lee Hooker puzzlers, so I'm going to post the answers. I'm going to do something a little different in this response--for the questions as to what playing position/tunings were used to play the songs, I'm going to post the playing positions/tunings that were suggested, without attribution, so that it can easily be seen what possibilities were suggested in the responses. Then I'll post my answer. I'm going to go into a bit more detail than usual on the Arthur Weston puzzler because I think it's a particularly interesting song in terms of making a determination of playing position/tuning. So, here goes:

For Arthur Weston's "Cryin' Won't Make Me Stay", the playing positions/tunings suggested were C position, standard tuning, D position, standard tuning, Open D tuning, Open D tuning, Spanish tuning, but played in D.

The answers:
   * Arthur Weston's playing position/tuning was, I believe, EAEGBE tuning, but tuned to sound in C#: C#-F#-C#-E-G#-C#. It's also possible that he played the song in E position, standard tuning, at C#. Before we get to the second question, here is the rationale for my identification of the playing/position.
   If you listen to what he plays underneath his singing, he slides from a V note on the fifth string to a I note, answering it with a I note followed by a slightly bent bIII note. That slide from the V up to the I note is the emblematic E blues slide from the second fret of the fifth string up to the seventh fret of the fifth string that is encountered in a host of Mississippi blues like "Pony Blues", "Stone Pony", "Depot Blues" "Lonesome Home", et al. The I note in the treble going to the slightly bent bIII note are achieved by hitting the open first string and bending the eighth fret of the second string, which is handy because you're already up the neck from doing the slide up to the seventh fret of the fifth string. Based just on that much information, C position in standard tuning and D position in standard tuning are eliminated as possibilities. Open D and cross-note (which was not suggested as a possibility) are also eliminated, because the slide on the fifth string is from a fretted note to a fretted note and in both those tunings the V note on the fifth string is the open string. So what we're left with as playing position possibilities are E position standard tuning and EAEGBE tuning, both of which make the fretted V note available at the second fret of the fifth string. I opt for EAEGBE tuning because Arthur Weston never plays a note on the fourth string except a I note, which leads me to believe it is an open octave above the open sixth string which he never has to fret, making it possible to free-hand things more in the fretting hand. I should say that Spanish tuning played in D position would also make a fretted slide available on the fifth string from the second to the seventh fret, going from V to I, but will be eliminated as a possibility on the basis of what Arthur Weston played in the treble in his signature lick.

For most of his signature licks in the front end of his verses, Arthur Weston starts on the + of beat four of the second measure of his form, hitting the I note there and bouncing up an octave on the downbeat of the third measure. He answers that octave jump with the open first string on the + of beat one going to the second fret of the second string on beat 2. On the + of beat two he hits the IV note on the open fifth string resolving up to the V note at the second fret on beat three. On beat three in the treble he often hits the open second string simultaneous with the bass note and on the + of beat three, he repeats the open second string (a V note), going from there to the second fret of the second string (a VI note) on beat four, re-starting the signature lick on the + of beat four. His picking hand sounds very "rough and ready", and I'm reasonably certain he's doing everything with thumb an index finger, with the thumb picking everything on the sixth, fifth and fourth strings and the index finger picking the first two strings. Two things in the treble portion of his signature lick that eliminate Spanish tuning played in D as a possibility are that he hits both the V and VI notes on the second string, and were he playing in Spanish tuning in D position, the second string would be tuned to a VI note, and the V note would not be available there. Also, in the course of playing his signature lick, Arthur Weston also often brushes the open third string, which is a bIII note relative to the key in which he's playing. We're he playing Spanish tuning in D position, the third string would be tuned to a IV note, so his sound is not possible there. I"d add that the fact that he hits a IV note and a V note on the fifth string in the course of playing his signature lick eliminates Open D and cross-note as possibilities since they both voice the V note on the open fifth string.

I wanted to go into this degree of detail in making this identification because I think this is a sensational piece and I really think Arthur Weston was outstanding. Earlier in this thread, we had his version of "Stack o' Dollars", my absolute favorite version of that tune, of which there have been many terrific ones. You can hear it at: https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg91982#msg91982 . It was also in EAEGBE tuning, tuned low.

For John Lee Hooker's "Rabbit in a Log", the playing position/tunings suggested were Spanish (two people), Open D, Open C, and G position, standard tuning.

John Lee Hooker played "Rabbit in a Log" in Spanish tuning pitched at C, as Phil (blueshome) had it in his initial response to the puzzler and Mark C. had it as well. I was made aware of these 1949 acoustic recordings John Lee Hooker made by a student who requested a lesson on any one of about six or seven tunes, all of which John Lee played in Spanish, capoed up. They're a neat selection of tunes, too, with a lot of songster type material and religious numbers like "Ezekiel Saw the Wheel" that I never knew John Lee Hooker played.

John Lee Hooker played his instrumental interlude very much as Mark C. described it in his post. in the course of his performance, John Lee fretted only the second and third frets of the fourth string, the second, third and fourth frets of the third string, the first and third frets of the second string, and the third and fifth frets of the first string, so the piece is very minimalistic in the left hand. One neat thing about John Lee's performance is that he goes back and forth between a major pentatonic scale with a major III and a VI note and a "blues" pentatonic with a bIII and a bVII instead of the major VI note.

I really love this piece, and it provides a reminder, was such a thing necessary, that a piece doesn't have to be complex to be beautiful and musically strong. If you put your guitar in Spanish tuning and capo to the fifth fret, I would venture to guess that you'll have the piece pretty much figured out in a half hour or less.

I hope folks enjoyed these tunes and I hope those of you who participated will get in tune with the recordings and try them out. Thanks to those who participated, and I'll look for some more puzzlers.

All best,
Johnm
 

 

 
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 12, 2021, 01:01:50 PM
Thanks for the detailed response John. much appreciated as always.
All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on November 12, 2021, 03:09:34 PM
Thanks John. I thought Weston’s was particularly challenging.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 12, 2021, 04:09:16 PM
Thanks, Old Man Ned and Mark. And I agree with you, Mark, that was a tough identification on the Arthur Weston song. I meant to mention Fred McDowell's "Trouble Everywhere I Go", that Chris posted, too. It really is a lot like the Arthur Weston cut, especially in the treble, but with a couple of crucial differences:
   * In the McDowell tune, he never hits a low IV note on the fifth string, he only hits the V note, over and over, so unlike Arthur Weston, he is playing in Vestapol or cross-note tuning.
   * The way he keeps bending that bIII note at the third fret of the fourth string towards the major third wouldn't work if he wasn't bending towards a unison on the open third string, so he is playing in Vestapol. He hardly sounds the third string at all, but he gets a little bit of it in a couple of places, and it sounds like a major third rather than a minor one.
It's a great tune and performance, too, and I never heard it before. Thanks for posting it, Chris.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on November 13, 2021, 09:37:54 AM
Thanks, Old Man Ned and Mark. And I agree with you, Mark, that was a tough identification on the Arthur Weston song. I meant to mention Fred McDowell's "Trouble Everywhere I Go", that Chris posted, too. It really is a lot like the Arthur Weston cut, especially in the treble, but with a couple of crucial differences:
   * In the McDowell tune, he never hits a low IV note on the fifth string, he only hits the V note, over and over, so unlike Arthur Weston, he is playing in Vestapol or cross-note tuning.
   * The way he keeps bending that bIII note at the third fret of the fourth string towards the major third wouldn't work if he wasn't bending towards a unison on the open third string, so he is playing in Vestapol. He hardly sounds the third string at all, but he gets a little bit of it in a couple of places, and it sounds like a major third rather than a minor one.
It's a great tune and performance, too, and I never heard it before. Thanks for posting it, Chris.

A friend of mine asked me how to play it a couple of years ago and it's been a favorite of mine ever since then!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 02, 2021, 03:55:05 PM
Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers for any of you who are interested. The first is another song from John Lee Hooker's 1949 acoustic recordings, "I Wonder". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/FzwsmpeCcO8

The questions on "I Wonder" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did John Lee Hooker use to play the song?
   * Where did John Lee Hooker fret the chord he plays at :51--:54 and what is the chord?

The second song is Booker White's version of "Shake 'Em On Down", from his Takoma album, "Mississippi Blues". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/moCaZChPSMU

The questions on "Shake "em On Down" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Booker White use to play the song?
   * Where did Booker White fret the descending run in the bass that opens his rendition?
   * What does Booker White fret where the V chord would normally fall in the chord progression?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, December 6. Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on December 07, 2021, 03:44:22 AM
I confess to being stumped on both of these. I only ever saw JLH playing in E standard or Open G, so my guess is it’s one of those, although it sounds like he’s attempting to channel Big Bill in C!

Likewise with BW. I only ever saw him play in E standard, cross note or open D. So I’ll guess crossnote tuned a bit low. Don’t know about the bass run, but he played his IV chord usually by just placing his second finger on the fifth string second fret whilst holding down the first fret of the third string. Alternatively he would fret the third and second strings at the second fret to get his trademark’bounce’, which I don’t hear on this track.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on December 07, 2021, 07:05:49 AM
JLH I think C standard.

Booker, Vasterpol down a step. For the V chord I he's just holding the 2nd string 2nd fret as he brushes.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on December 07, 2021, 02:33:29 PM
Agree on C for JLH.

Booker is in E standard (I didn't check the pitch) and does that descending run on the fretted notes of an E chord, starting on the 4th string 2nd fret, then open 4th, then 5th string 2nd fret, open 5th, 6th string 3rd fret, open 6th and back up to the E hammering on to the 4th string 2nd fret.

His V chord he's playing the B note on the 5th string 2nd fret and then the C# at the 5th string 4th fret. I suspect he might be playing  0-2-0-2-0-0 and then 0-4-0-4-0-0 and just muting the other strings a LOT.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 08, 2021, 08:50:04 AM
Agree that John Lee Hooker's "I Wonder" is out of C, standard tuning. The chord he plays at :51--:54, I'm hearing as a diminished played on the first 4 strings:
--2--
--1--
--2--
--1--

Agree with Banjochris for Booker White's version of "Shake 'Em On Down", E standard and am in the same area for the bass run. Booker White sounds, to me, to be tuned about a step and a half low. I really am struggling on the last part of the puzzler regarding the V chord.

I'm amazed I got this far with the Booker White tune. I'm still, after all these years, totally mesmerized and in awe of his playing that I expected to be completely flummoxed and not able to come up with any sort of answer.

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on December 10, 2021, 05:08:38 AM
Great song selections! I had never heard either of these before. I hadn't read the questions yet when the John Lee Hooker song was playing, but as soon as it got to the :51 mark, I knew that chord had to be part of the Puzzler!

For Hooker:
I think he's in C position, standard tuning, capo'd up a step or so.
I think the chord at :51 is an F chord with the first string left open (I should probably know the name of that chord, but I don't.)

For White:
I think he's in E position, standard tuning down more than a full step. (I assumed he'd be in crossnote, but the IV chord was clearly not barred up the neck.)
Bass run: I first hear an open 6th string right to the 4th string 2nd fret. Then maybe plays around with 4th string 2nd fret to open; 5th string 2nd fret to open; and then 6th string 3rd fret (bent) to open; finally back to the 4th string 2nd fret.
For the V chord I think he's playing the 5th string 2nd fret (the V note) and mutes the 4th string while letting some of the higher strings ring. I think at times he may bring that fretted note up to the 4th fret (2nd verse). And I even think I hear him hang on the E chord a little longer for at least one of the verses.

I've never really made an attempt to play Booker White's music. It's a little intimidating, but I may have to dabble a bit more!

As always, thank you for taking the time to put these puzzlers together. I don't always have the time to dive in and respond in time, but I try to at least go back and listen & learn when I can.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on December 10, 2021, 06:50:17 PM
JLH:
I agree that Hooker’s playing in standard, C position, up almost a full step, so it’s in slightly flat D. I think Mr. Jones has the interesting chord right, a major 7th. In C it would be Fmaj7, here it’s closer to Gmaj7.

I think Hooker might be playing only the top 4 strings some of the time, so the C (D) sounds a little strange since the lowest note is often the 3rd of the chord.

A very interesting side of Mr. Hooker, not a blues at all.

Here’s the Cecil Gant song he mentions:

https://youtu.be/oimoXGSE7cU


Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 13, 2021, 01:35:57 PM
Hi all,
It's been a few days since we had any new responses to the John Lee Hooker and Booker White puzzlers, so I will post the answers:

For John Lee Hooker's "I Wonder"
   * His playing position/tuning was C position in standard tuning, which I believe every response ended up concluding. Well done!
   * The chord from :51--:54 was fretted exactly as Forgetful Jones had it, X-0-3-2-1-0, and relative to tuning/possible capo placement it is an F Major7, as MarkC designated it.

My response when I first heard this performance was much like Professor Scratchy's, in that I had never heard John Lee Hooker play in anything other than E position standard tuning and Spanish tuning. For that reason alone, this is a particularly interesting track, because it sheds some light both on John Lee Hooker's knowledge and abilities on the guitar and his musical tastes, which is to say that the relatively pared-back breadth of his customary way of expressing himself turns out to have been a choice and not a result of not knowing how to do anything else. And it shows that he found music far outside his normal range of expression appealing, too. So, in a way this performance is an indication of a "road not taken".

For Booker White's "Shake 'Em On Down":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as several of the responses had it.
   * The descending run that opens the rendition is just as banjochris had it: second fret fourth string to open fourth string, second fret fifth string to open fifth string, third fret of the sixth string to open sixth string, fourth string hammered from open to second fret and ending the run on the open sixth string.
   * In most verses, Booker White simply frets the second fret of the fifth string for his V chord, living on the open first and second strings in the treble. In a verse or two, he goes up to the fourth fret of the fifth string for the downbeat of the tenth bar, returning to the second fret for beat three of that measure. I did not hear him doing the characteristic mirrored movement from the second to the fourth fret of the third string that many players utilize in such an instance.

In terms of identifying Booker White's playing position/tuning, two factors suffice:
   * The hammer from the open fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string that concludes his signature lick run. That hammer goes from a bVII note to a I note and is essentially right under the hand in E position standard tuning. Were he playing in cross-note or Vestapol, the same hammer would lie very non-intuitively between the third and fifth frets of the fifth string. The second giveaway of E position in standard tuning is his IV chord, as Forgetful Jones noted--it has a low root in the bass which would not be available in either cross-note or Vestapol except at the fifth fret of the sixth string, and the sound of his IV chord in the treble is clearly that of an A7 in standard tuning, 0-0-2-2-2-3.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs. I'll look for some more puzzlers to post soon.

All best,
Johnm

   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 29, 2022, 10:25:24 AM
Hi all,
It's been a long time since we've had some new puzzlers, so I thought I would post a couple for those of you who are interested. The first is from the late Mississippian, Charles Caldwell, who recorded one album for Fat possum shortly before he died. The song is "I'll Do Anything You Say", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/DkB1Mr2U_tg

The questions on Charles Caldwell's "I'll Do Anything You Say" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret his signature lick that he repeats several times from :20--:30 and else where throughout the course of the song?
   * He begins each verse on what chord, and what does he fret there?

The second song is from Louisianan Herman E. Johnson, and it is his "She's A-Looking For Me". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/ZwOr3_IpB2Q

The questions on Herman E. Johnson's "She's A-Looking For Me" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where does he play the opening slide work, from :03--:15?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, January 31. Thanks for your participation, and I hope that you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: rein on January 30, 2022, 11:34:17 AM
I ll post this since it is not an answer to any off the questions asked, but the lick is to me very similar to what Buddy Guy plays in Junior Wells You dont love me baby (1965) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEtuFrkZNvU. But it is really nicely integrated in this song.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 02, 2022, 02:25:15 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Charles Caldwell and Herman E. Johnson puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 05, 2022, 09:16:12 AM
HERMAN E JOHNSON seems to be in cross note.and the runs are fretted on the 2nd string moving between the 3rd, 5th and 7th frets with the 3rd string played open in unison.

Not had time to spend on the other song yet.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on February 05, 2022, 04:12:48 PM
Charles Caldwell is playing out of standard tuning, key of A.
His lick is fretted fourth string, hammering to the 2nd fret, then open third string, 2nd fret fourth string, 2nd fret third string, open third, 2nd fret fourth string, 3rd fret fifth string, 2nd fret fourth string, 3rd fret fifth string, then open fifth string to finish.
He begins each verse on a D chord I think fretted open fourth string, 2nd fret third string, 3rd fret second string. He then changes it to a D7, changing the 3rd fret to a 1st fret second string.

I get Herman Johnson playing in G (Spanish) tuning, capoed or tuned up a whole step to A.
His opening lick starts on the open fourth string, fingers the 3rd fret, then he plays the open third string for 6 triplets, then uses the slide slide up to  the 3rd fret of the same string. From there, an open third string, then slides from the 3rd to 5th fret, then (approximately) 6th fret, 7th fret, all on the third string. Then repeat the figure described (badly) in the previous sentence. Then, open fourth string, slide to 3rd fret of fourth string, open third string, slide on third string to 7th fret, open third, slide on 3rd fret, open fourth string, 3rd fret of fourth string.
Slide work is really hard to describe!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 08, 2022, 09:30:06 AM
Hi all,
Any other responders to the Charles Caldwell and Herman E. Johnson puzzlers? Come one, come all! Answer as few or as many questions as you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: rein on February 08, 2022, 11:57:23 AM
Ok. I will give it a shot. The first song sounds to me like it is in Spanish, and that  the chord is a C shape but played in spanish with the open top string, I think you can either call it a Cadd9 or aGsus.
The Herman Johnson song sounded to me like the melodie was nt played on the top string, so I would think spanish as well.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 09, 2022, 11:22:08 AM
Haven’t really had time to sit down with these, but they both sound to be in Spanish to me.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on February 09, 2022, 02:41:57 PM
It's rare that I find myself away and without a guitar but here I am. I'll just answer the position and tuning parts of the questions.

For Charles Caldwell's "I'll Do Anything You Say" the signature sounds like it should be a good fit to standard tuning out of A.

For Herman E. Johnson's "She's A-Looking For Me" I think open G. Sounds like with the slide work from 03--:15 is around the 2nd and 3rd frets and the open 3rd string

All the Best,
Ned
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 11, 2022, 08:46:58 AM
Hi all,
It's been a few days since the last response in the Charles Caldwell and Herman E. Johnson puzzlers, so I think I'll post the answers.

For Charles Caldwell's "I'll Do Anything You Say":
   * His playing position/tuning was A position in standard tuning as Dave Kaatz and Old Man Ned had it. His signature lick begins with a hammer from a IV to a V note in the mid-range, going up to a bVII from there. In Spanish tuning, that would require a very non-intuitive hammer from the fifth fret of the fifth string up to the seventh fret of the fifth string, moving from there to an awkwardly placed third fret of the fourth string. In A position, the same notes relative to the key can be found via a hammer from the open fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string, going from there to the open third string. So in A position, the opening of the signature lick is right under the hand and involves fretting one note only, whereas in Spanish the same lick begins with an unusual hammer followed by a leap back down the neck.
   * Charles Caldwell fretted his signature lick (which he varied somewhat over the course of the song), pretty much exactly as Dave described it in his answer, so rather than parrot his answer here, I'll just refer you back to it.
   * Charles Caldwell's verses begin on a IV chord, D, with the D note at the third fret of the second string resolving down to a C note at the first fret of the second string as the phrase moves along. He gets a slightly spooky sound by leaving his third string open in his D chord.

For Herman E. Johnson's "She Is Looking for Me":
   * His playing position/tuning was Spanish tuning
   * Except for two brief pick-up notes where he slides up to the fourth fret of the fourth string on the way to his open third string, I'm fairly certain that Herman E. Johnson played all of the melodic work with his slide in the intro from :03--:15 on the third string, finding melody notes there at the fourth, fifth and seventh frets. By playing the melody all on one string, he achieves a more voice-like quality in his statement of the melody, with a consistency of tone that he wouldn't be able to achieve if he crossed strings and stayed closer to the base of the the neck. It's more common to take this approach in Vestapol, playing melodies on just the first string with the slide, than it is in Spanish tuning.

I sure wish that Herman E. Johnson had been recorded more. He was an exceptional writer, one of my very favorite Country Blues songwriters. You can't beat his "Depression Blues", "I Am Growing Older", "She Is Looking For Me", "I Just Keep On Wanting You" or "She Had Been Drinking". Visit his lyrics thread to hear more of his songs.

Thanks to those who participated and I hope you enjoyed the songs.
All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 18, 2022, 10:10:13 AM
Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested. The first features Johnie Lewis, who as far as I know only ever recorded one album for Arhoolie, "Alabama Slide Guitar". The song is "Baby, Listen To Me Howl", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/_dBP66F2o0s

For Johnie Lewis's recording of "Baby, Listen To Me Howl":
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the run he plays from :18--:20?

The second puzzler is on Guitar Pete Franklin's "I Got To Find My Baby". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/xEwvdOQIcOQ

For Pete Franklin's recording of "I Got To Find My Baby":
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * How is Pete Franklin fretting his V7 chord throughout the song?
   * Without getting into too much detail, how would you say Pete Franklin played his descending lick from :09--:12 in his picking hand?
   * The lick he plays from 2:12--2:18 suggests what about the way he strung his guitar?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM yoour time on Monday, February 21. Thanks for your participation, and I hope that you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 23, 2022, 12:09:03 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Johnie Lewis and Pete Franklin puzzlers? Come one, come all, and answer just one question per song or as many as you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 27, 2022, 08:05:44 AM
Johnny Lewis sounds like E standard to me. The lick is played 3rd fret2nd string 4th 3rd string.

Pete Franklin is playing in E standard, a half-step down using an unwound 3rd string.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 27, 2022, 09:11:01 AM
I agree with blueshome, both in E standard. Pete Franklin sounds to me a lot like Scrapper Blackwell in E.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on February 28, 2022, 05:05:08 PM
I’ll just add that I think Franklin leaves the high E string open when he plays the V7 chord, and maybe he’s playing the 5th in the bass on 2nd fret 6th string, but I’m not sure.

Regarding the :09-:12 lick, I think he’s pulling off the high E string while doing a descending E7 lick.

Sounds like double stops in some spots on 1st and 3rd string.

For the Lewis song, it also sounds to me like he’s in E standard tuning (slightly flat I think) because it sounds like he slides up to the 12th fret and it sounds to me like it’s B and E. And the lowest note I’m hearing is standard low E. But I can’t figure out what he’s playing when he slides around the 5th to 7th fret on two strings.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 03, 2022, 11:34:27 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Johnie Lewis and Guitar Pete Franklin puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on March 04, 2022, 12:54:39 PM
For Pete Franklin's "I Got To Find My Baby": I agree, he sounds in E standard tuned a half step low.
Can't say anything about his V7 chord. For his picking hand playing his descending lick from :09--:12 I've only come up with the suggestion that he's alternating between his thumb and index finger on each string.
Really can't say anything on how he strung his guitar other than the strings sounds a bit slack but that could be just because I'm hearing him tuned a bit low.

Found this a tough one but love Pete Franklin's playing.

All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on March 05, 2022, 08:05:47 AM
Johnny Lewis sounds like he’s playing a lot of similar lines as Fred McDowell, so I lean vestapol tuning. That would put the lick at :18 on the 3rd frets of the 2nd & 3rd strings.

Pete Franklin sounds like he’s in standard tuning, E position.
For his B7 chord, it sounds like he’s fretting the 6th string 2nd fret as opposed to the 5th string 2nd fret.
From :09-:12 I think he may be using his thumb to first hit a note then drag through the other strings.
Man, I don’t know how to answer this one, but it sure is pretty. He plays so heavy handedly through the song then this delicate part comes in. I love it.  I assume by asking how the guitar is strung, that’s a different question than how it’s tuned. Does he maybe have a couple strings switched? Or possibly 2 strings tuned in unison?

Nice song selections. Glad I got in on this one, though I’m not too confident in my responses.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 07, 2022, 10:38:23 AM
Hi all,
The Johnie Lewis and Pete Franklin puzzlers have been up a while and I think that those who intended to respond have done so by now, so I'll post the answers.

For Johnie Lewis's "Baby, Listen To Me How":
   * His playing position/tuning was Vestapol, as Forgetful Jones had it. Many of the non-slide runs he plays at the base of the neck do sound akin to those that might be played in E position in standard tuning, but there are a couple of give-aways that it is Vestapol that he was using to play the song:
     1) He never plays a note lower than the V note on his fifth string, And in Vestapol the open fifth string is a V note.
     2) Every time he goes to a IV chord, he voices the third of the chord rather than the root in the bass, on the fifth string. In Vestapol that third lives at the second fret of the fifth string, and in standard tuning, E position it lives at the fourth fret of the fifth string. Were he playing in E position standard tuning, there would be no musical reason to voice the IV chord with its third int he bass rather than its root, which would be the open fifth string.
     3) When he goes to his V chord, at 1:20, he is voicing the root on the fifth string and the fifth on the fourth string, which in Vestapol is fretted 0-2, going from the fifth to the fourth string. In E position, standard tuning, the same sound would be fretted 2-4 on the fifth and fourth strings, and as far as I know, no one did that.
   * The run from :18--:20 begins on the + of beat one with a slide to the third fret of the third string, beat two is a triplet going from the open second string to its third fret and returning to the open string, beat three is another triplet begin with a re-slide to the third fret of the third string rolled by the third fret of the second string resolving to the open second string, and beat four is another triplet which goes from the first fret of the third string to the open third string and resolves to the open fourth string.

I hadn't listened to the Johnie Lewis CD in a number of years, and was surprised to find how different my impression of his playing is now than it was then. When I first heard him, I thought it was pretty rough playing and wasn't all that impressed. When I listened to a number of his songs to choose one for the puzzler, I found that he sounded terrific to me, really nuanced and varied in his playing. You can tell he wasn't big on damping behind his slide, but that doesn't bother me now. It's crazy to expect all slide players to have the facility and tone of Blind Willie Johnson, Tampa Red or Rev. Edward Clayborn--after all, there was only one of each of those players! It's a kind of long-winded way of saying Johnie Lewis just sounds great to me, both vocally and instrumentally.

For Pete Franklin's "I Got To Find My Baby":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, as I believe every responder had it--well done!
   * Throughout his rendition, Pete Franklin voice his V7 chord with its fifth in the bass, 2-X-1-2-0-X. I don't believe he ever plays anything on the first string in his V7 chord, usually just sounding the open second string on top.
   * For the descending lick from :09--:12, he is playing triplets, and in the picking hand he is playing the first and third notes of the triplets with his thumb and picking what happens over the second note of the triplet with his fingers, sometimes getting a couple of notes via pull-offs. It is wonderful, splashy turn-around, I think, and as Professor Scratchy noted, it really works a lot of the same territory as Scrapper Blackwell's playing in E position in standard tuning.
   * The lick he plays from 2:12--2:18, and in particular, the beautiful vibrato and sustain he was able to get on his third string suggest that he was playing with an unwound, or plain third string. A number of you picked up on that.

I really wish Pete Franklin had been recorded more. There are a few cuts from the early '50s or late '40s out there, just one or two, and this Prestige album, which you may still be able to find on CD. A good portion of the Prestige Bluesville catalog was made available on CD before   
Concord Jazz purchased Fantasy, which owned the Prestige catalog, and pulled the plug on that. Notable Prestige-Bluesville recordings that did not make it on to CD in time: Henry Townsend, Wade Walton, Robert Curtis Smith, Shirley Griffith, Shirley Griffith and J. T. Adams, and Scrapper Blackwell and Brooks Berry.

I know that Nick Perls recorded a decent amount of Pete Franklin on the trip to Indianapolis during which he recorded Yank Rachell and Shirley Griffith for their Blue Goose albums. As I recall, there were not enough Pete Franklin cuts for a full album, but still several really good cuts which could have been put on an anthology. I heard a couple of the cuts, one of which Franklin played with an octave G string, something at which he was a master. Nick died before the pieces were ever released. I know that the music portion of his estate, and Yazoo and Blue Goose went to Shanachie Records, which was keeping Yazoo going for a while, and pretty much let Blue Goose go. I'm pretty sure you can still find a high-strung piece by Pete Franklin on youtube--it might be called "Guitar Pete's Blues" or something like that, and it was used several years ago in this thread.

Thanks to all who responded, and I hope that you enjoyed the songs. I'll search for some more songs that will make good puzzlers.

All best,
Johnm 
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 12, 2022, 09:28:05 AM
Hi all,
It's been a little while since I posted any puzzlers so I thought I'd seek out some suitable tunes and put up a couple of puzzlers for those who are interested. The first is from Mississippian Charley Booker, a transitional player who recorded in the post-War period, sometimes for Sun Records. The performance here is "Walked All Night":

https://youtu.be/jj5duJyfqTI

For Charley Booker's "Walked All Night":
   * What was his playing position/tuning?
   * At what point in his performance did you arrive at your determination of his playing position/tuning, and what was it that you heard that made your choice for you?

The second puzzler is from Furry Lewis, and it is his performance of "Shake 'Em On Down", from one of his Prestige Bluesville early '60s albums that Sam Charters produced. It features the "I've fallen in a well!" reverb that characterized all of the Charters-supervised recordings made in Memphis (Furry's and Memphis Willie B's two albums). Here is "Shake 'Em On Down":

https://youtu.be/5CUXqYM6mZs

For Furry Lewis's "Shake 'Em On Down":
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * What aural factors contributed to your determination of his playing position/tuning?

Please don't post any response to the puzzler questions before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, April 15, and please use only your ears and guitar to arrive at your answers. Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs and Charley Booker's and Furry Lewis's performances of them.

All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on April 15, 2022, 08:47:16 AM
Charley Booker's "Walked All Night" I'm hearing in E standard tuning about a half step low. From the start the I chord sounds like it's played out of the D shape. @6 seconds I'm hearing an open 6th string. I first thought this might be played out of D or dropped D with capo on first fret but the open 6th string discounted that for me ie doesn't sound like a D note. The thing that made up my mind for E standard, a half step low was the final note that rings out. I'm hearing this as Eb.
 
Furry Lewis's "Shake 'Em On Down" I'm hearing in E using the EAEGBE tuning as there's parts that sound very similar to his 'Mean Mistreatin' Mama.

All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on April 15, 2022, 09:59:50 AM
For "Walked All Night" I hear it in D – I'm not sure if it's dropped D or standard, because I'm not sure I hear a 6th string at all during the performance – the bass complicates things a bit and I'm listening on my laptop speakers. Sounded like D to me on the first pass – the lick over the IV chord with the third in the bass is a classic G7 lick and the A7 chord has a pretty distinctive sound too.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on April 16, 2022, 02:32:07 AM
I’ll say D for Charley and drop D for Furry.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on April 16, 2022, 12:04:00 PM
I'll go with E for Charley. It just has that sound, plus the starting lick lies so well at the 7th and 8th frets.
Furry sounds like either Drop-D or open D. He plays that signature (to me) sound of walking up in octaves on both the 6th and fourth strings, like Big Road Blues by Tommy Johnson, which is easily done in Drop-D tuning.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on April 16, 2022, 07:21:14 PM
**Edited to include additional paragraph below**

For Charley Booker's "Walked All Night"
- I think he's in Drop D, playing in D. The way he plays his IV chord first reminded me of Robert Wilkins "I'll Go With Her," which is in standard tuning. The rumbling Low D note can be heard at times throughout the song, so I went with Dropped D.

I love this song so much. The guitar tone, the vocals, this simplicity of the solos, the driving rhythm. It's everything I want in early electric blues. Perfection.

For Furry Lewis's "Shake 'Em On Down"
I think he's in EAEGBE tuning, but lower. I went through process of elimination. You can tell there are open strings ringing so I tried Drop D and Vestapol. Neither fit, because I think I hear the root of Lewis's IV chord as an open string as well. I don't really know what I'm doing in this tuning, so I don't have a lot of confidence in the answer.

**For the sake of the exercise, I try these Breakdowns on my own before reading other people's responses. After reading the other answers I tried tuning to Standard to play "Walked All Night." BanjoChris, in particular had me questioning whether I was hearing guitar or bass in the low end. After listening again, however, I'm doubling down on Dropped D. The low root of the V chord (A position) is loud and clear telling me it's likely the open 5th string. The low register disappears during the IV chord (G), which makes sense in Dropped D, as that note would be up at the 5th fret. Not impossible, but that'd be pretty awkward to play.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 26, 2022, 11:36:15 AM
Hi all,
It has been over a week since the most recent response to the Charlie Booker and Furry Lewis puzzlers, so I will post the answers.

For Charlie Booker's "Walked All Night":
   * His playing position was D in standard tuning, as Chris had it. The point in the rendition at which I was sure that he was playing in either D in standard tuning or dropped-D was when he went to his IV chord, in which he voiced the third of the chord in the bass at the second fret of the fifth string, and went back and forth in the treble between third fret of the second string, and the first string, open and fretted at the first fret. The sound is so characteristic a sound for the IV chord when playing a blues in D. I never hear him hitting a low D note on the sixth string--rather, in the first four bars of the form, I hear him alternating between the open fifth string and the open fourth string, also a characteristic sound of playing in D position in standard tuning, a sound you encounter in pretty much all of John Hurt's tunes that he played in D in standard tuning.

For Furry Lewis' "Shake 'Em On Down":
   * His playing position was E in EAEGBE tuning as Old Man Ned and Forgetful Jones had it, and Furry is tuned low, as Forgetful Jones noted. I think the give-aways in terms of sound are his signature lick, in which he does a pull-off from the second fret of the second string to the open second string, followed by a hammer into the first fret of the third string. Forgetful Jones makes a good point too, about Furry voicing the root of the IV chord on the open fifth string. That note would note be available anywhere other than the fifth fret of the sixth string in Vestapol, cross-note or dropped-D. Also, when Furry goes to his V7 chord, he alternates right over the fourth string, going from the fifth string, second fret to the third string, second fret and then the second fret of the sixth string up to the third string, second fret. EAEGBE tuning also makes the "Big Road Blues" octave walk-up between the sixth and fourth strings readily available.

Thanks to all who participated in these puzzlers, and I hope folks enjoyed the songs and performances. I'll look for some more puzzlers to post.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on April 26, 2022, 05:03:14 PM
As always, thanks for taking the time to put these puzzlers together, John- especially the detailed answers. I get excited when I get them right, and likewise, disappointed in myself when I flub it up.

Walked All Night got me to plug last week, which I hadn’t done in a while. I had fun playing it…in the wrong tuning.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on April 26, 2022, 05:21:44 PM
Hi Forgetful Jones,
You didn't play it in the wrong tuning--just a different tuning. And without a bass player, it may well work better in dropped-D.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 13, 2022, 11:09:18 AM
Hi all,
I've found a couple of more puzzlers for those of you who are interested. The first is "Stop Jivin' Me", from Gabriel Brown, recorded on the Joe Davis label on September 13, 1944. Here is Gabriel Brown's performance:

https://youtu.be/7JNYquoXWPc

INTRO

REFRAIN: Oh, you better stop jivin' me, better stop jivin' me
'Cause you spend my bucks, you're bound to have bad luck, you don't stop jivin' me
You'd better stop jivin' me, better stop jivin' me
Aw, you spend my bucks, you're bound to have bad luck, don't stop jivin' me

(Spoken) Now I took you out, baby, to have a good time
Now the first thing you want do, is make a sucker out of me
REFRAIN: You'd better stop jivin' me, better stop jivin' me
Aw, you spend my bucks, you're bound to have bad luck, don't stop jivin' me
REFRAIN: You'd better stop jivin' me, better stop jivin' me
Now, you spend my bucks, you're bound to have bad luck, don't stop jivin' me

(Spoken) Now you know you don't love me, baby, you ain't never loved me
You ain't never loved your baby, I ain't gonna love you no more
REFRAIN: Now you better stop jivin' me, you better stop jivin' me
Now, you spend my bucks, you're bound to have bad luck, don't stop jivin' me

SOLO

REFRAIN: You'd better stop jivin' me, better stop jivin' me
Oh, you spend my bucks, you're bound to have bad luck, don't stop jivin' me

(Spoken) Now one of these days, baby, gon' forget myself
I'm gon' knock you out, I'm gon' knock myself out, too
REFRAIN: You'd better stop jivin' me, better stop jivin' me
Now, you spend my bucks, you're bound to have bad luck, don't stop jivin' me

CODA

The questions on Gabriel Brown's "Stop Jivin' Me" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * What is he doing in the fretting hand as the song begins?
   * Where did Gabriel Brown fret the first two phrases of his solo, from 1:50--1:53?

The second puzzler is from Dan Pickett, and it is his version of "Decoration Day". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/pGlrx2CxWb4

The questions on Daniel Pickett's "Decoration Day" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did Dan Pickett fret the ascending/descending fill he plays from :22--:23?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, May16. Thanks for your participation and I hope that you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 18, 2022, 06:28:22 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Gabriel Brown and Dan Pickett puzzlers? Come one, come all!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on May 18, 2022, 07:47:12 AM
Sounds to me like Gabriel Brown is in drop D tuning and that at the beginning he's sliding a first position D chord from one fret low up to the D repeatedly.

Decoration Day sounds like it's in E capoed way up to A or somewhere like that. I thought it was in A position for a minute when it started up.

I hadn't heard "Stop Jivin' Me" before, John, thanks, that's a cool song!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on May 18, 2022, 08:31:42 AM
I'm hearing Gabriel Brown's "Stop Jivin' Me" in D. I'm thinking standard tuning rather than dropped D. Agree with Banjo Chris re what is going on in the fretting hand at the start. For the first two phrases of his solo, from 1:50--1:53 is he not just taking this D shape up and down the neck to a high point of A and D at the lowest, and landing on an F also.

Daniel Pickett's "Decoration Day" I'm hearing in E standard, capo, on my guitar, at the 6th fret.
Not quite figuredout the ascending/descending fill he plays from :22--:23 but I'm making some similar noises out of a standard E shape.

All the Best,
Ned

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on May 19, 2022, 12:06:14 PM
Gabriel Brown I've. Got in Drop D
Pickett E capoed well up
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on May 21, 2022, 12:59:58 AM
I agree with blueshome, drop D and E capoed high.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on May 22, 2022, 08:33:44 PM

Gabriel Brown “Stop Jivin’ Me” - D position in Standard tuning, a little sharp. I broke my capo trying to figure it out.
For the intro, I think he repeatedly slides into his D chord from a fret lower.
To start his solo I’m pretty sure he just plays that D shaped chord up at the 8th fret and works it down to 7th fret then 5th fret. And on the 2nd measure he follows that same pattern and resolves it back to D at the 2nd fret. (That is really awkwardly worded by me, but I hope it makes sense.)

I am a bit discouraged to have broken my capo, and didn’t give Dan Pickett an honest effort, but I think he’s playing in E position capo’d up there 6 or 7 frets up from where my guitar is tuned.

Great song choices again. I hadn’t heard either one before.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on May 28, 2022, 11:02:47 AM
Hi all,
There haven't been any new responses to the Gabriel Brown and Dan Pickett puzzlers for several days, so I'll post the answers.

For Gabriel Brown's "Stop Jivin' Me":
   * His playing position was D position in dropped-D tuning. I think every response had the playing position at D in either standard or dropped-D tuning. This was not an easy identification, by any means, because Gabriel Brown did not emphasize the low D on the sixth string as is most often done when someone plays in that tuning. But if you re-listen to the cut, at :52--:53, you can hear him hit the low D note twice, by itself. Gabriel Brown is one of the few Country Blues players to record a lot of tunes in dropped-D tuning, always using it to play in D position when he did so, unlike Lightnin' Hopkins, Mance Lipscomb and Carolina Slim, all of whom liked to use dropped-D tuning to play in A position.
   * Everyone correctly identified his opening move as sliding a D chord on the first three strings at the base of the neck up one fret, intact, over and over.
   * Old Man Ned and Forgetful Jones correctly identified his moves in the treble at the beginning of his solo as being a D shape (or at least the first two strings of the D shape) being moved up the neck and starting with simultaneous walk-downs on the first and second strings of the eighth, seventh and fifth frets of the first string and the ninth, eighth and sixth frets of the second string, with the second string bent at each step along the way. The second time he plays the phrase he continues on down to a first position D at the second fret of the first string and the third fret of the second string. At the beginning of the solo, he is doing a sort of "three frets up" idea in reverse, and jazzing it up by hitting the intermediate step along the way.

Like banjochris, I had never heard this performance before finding it on youtube. It is not included on the JSP set "Shake that Thing", which has almost all of Gabriel Brown's commercial recordings and a good number of his Library of Congress recordings, too.

For Dan Pickett's "Decoration Day":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning, capoed up, as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * He played the ascending/descending fill from :22--:23 as follows: The fill begins on beat two with a triplet in which the first two notes are the open fourth string, and the second fret of the fourth string, with the third note being the open first string. On beat three, he plays a another triplet, pulling off from the third fret of the second string to the open second string and going from there to the third fret of the third string. On beat four, he hits a concluding triplet, pulling off from the second fret of the third string to the first fret of the third string and hitting the second fret of the fourth string on the last note of the triplet. On the downbeat of the next measure he resolves the fill to the open first string. In the bass, he hits the open sixth string on the first and third notes of the beat three triplet and hits it again on beat four. I really love this fill, it is just ripping. Try it out--it sits so beautifully in the left hand that you barely have to move anything, and the two pull-offs are so intelligently placed that they're just a cinch to play.

I think that Dan Pickett's playing and singing here both show a strong Tommy McClennan influence as do several of his recorded performances. The way that in a couple of verses he hits repeated bends of the third fret of the first string under his singing closely approximates something Tommy McClennan loved to do when playing in G position, but getting his bend at the sixth fret of the first string. I sure wish Dan Pickett had recorded more. He's one of those guys like Robert Petway or Garfield Akers who only had a couple of days in the studio. And like Tommy McClennan, Charlie Patton and Blind Boy Fuller, he was blessed in being completely unintimidated by the recording situation--he just cut loose. Has there ever been a blues singer who could spit out words with such alacrity? On this song and "99-and-a Half Won't Do", Pickett fits in more words than it seems would be possible.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope you enjoyed the songs. I'll see if I can find some others to post.
All best,
Johnm 
     
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 04, 2022, 09:54:20 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested. The first is from Tarheel Slim (Alden Bunn), and it comes from late in his career, when he recorded for Trix. He is playing the lead electric guitar on the track. The song is "Superstitious", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/V5XmshtO3Ss

The questions on Tarheel Slim's "Superstitious" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the walk-down that he does from :09--:12?

The second song is from Jenny Pope, and it is her "Mr. Postman Blues". The guitarist and jug player on the track are unknown according to DG&R, but it has been suggested that Will Shade was the guitarist. Here is "Mr. Postman Blues":

https://youtu.be/hflAUuGO4BM

The questions on "Mr. Postman Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning was used to play the song?
   * Where was the walk-down from :06--:09 fretted?
   

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, June 7. Thanks for your participation and I hope that you enjoy the tunes.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 11, 2022, 08:00:10 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Tarheel Slim and Jenny Pope puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on June 13, 2022, 07:10:53 AM
Sounds to me like Tarheel Slim is in Vestapol and is playing that walk-down starting on the third fret of the fifth and third strings and taking it down fret by fret. It's basically the same lick, with different timing (and of course in a different tuning) that Peg Leg Howell plays in "Low Down Rounder's Blues."
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on June 13, 2022, 07:44:36 AM
Tar Heel Skin in Vestapol, as banjochris says. What a voice! I have difficulty hearing the guitar on the Jenny Pope track, and really have no idea what’s going on. But that doesn’t stop me from guessing, so I’ll guess E standard with capo on 5th fret!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on June 13, 2022, 01:20:44 PM
I'm with the Prof
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 16, 2022, 06:18:19 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Tarheel Slim and Jenny Pope/Will Shade puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on June 17, 2022, 06:18:36 AM
Tarheel Slim's "Superstitious" I think is in Vestapol tuning. The walkdown sounds like he starts off on the 5th & 3rd strings at the 3rd fret and then moves down to 2nd fret, then 1st fret, then open.

For Jenny Pope's "Mr. Postman Blues" I think the unknown guitar player is in E position Standard tuning capo'd up. Hard to hear on crummy laptop speakers, but sounds like the walkdown is pretty standard for that position, starting off by fretting the 3rd string at the 4th fret and the 2nd string at the 3rd fret. Sounds like he walks that shape down a fret at a time until he resolves to the E chord.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on June 20, 2022, 12:34:28 PM
Hi all,
There haven't been any new responses on the Tarheel Slim and Jenny Pope/Will shade puzzlers in several days, so I'll post the answers.

For Tarheel Slim's "Superstitious":
   * His playing position/tuning was Vestapol as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * He fretted the walk-down from :09--:12 exactly as banjochris described it in his initial response to the puzzlers, walking down the third and fifth strings from the third fret chromatically to the open third and fifth strings. That walk-down has him going from the fifth to the third of the I chord on the third string and the bVII to the V note of the I chord on the fifth string.

On Tarheel Slim's Trix album, "No Time At All", which you can still find occasionally in its CD version, he played a surprising number of tunes out of Vestapol--the title track, "Fore Day Creep", "180 Days" and "So Sweet". He really was a wonderful singer, as Prof Scratchy noted, and like another singer from the Carolinas, Doug Quattlebaum, had done stints in Gospel quartets, which really shows up in his singing, I think.

For Jenny Pope's "Mr. Postman Blues":
   * The unidentified guitarist's playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning, as Prof Scratchy, blushome and Forgetful Jones all had it--well done!
   * The guitarist did the walk-down from :06--:09 walking down the third string chromatically from the fourth to the first fret and the fifth string from the fifth to the second fret. Coincidentally, this is exactly the same walk-down that Tarheel Slim did in "Superstitious", walking from the V to the III of the I chord on the third string and the bVII to the V of the I chord on the fifth string. He has to start the third string one fret higher in E position standard tuning than Tarheel Slim did in Vestapol, since the third string is tuned a half-step higher relative to the sixth string in Vestapol than it is in E standard. Likewise, he has to start the fifth string two frets higher in E position standard tuning than Tarheel Slim did in Vestapol because in E position standard tuning, the fifth string is tuned to a IV note and in Vestapol, it is tuned to a V note. I think that figuring out the way this same walk-down can be sussed out in these different playing positions/tunings is a really valuable exercise, both in terms of hearing and the thought process involved.

I sure like the guitar playing on "Mr. Postman Blues"--there are so many nice touches. I believe Jenny Pope only recorded a couple of titles. Her vocal tone really reminds me of Mattie Delaney, with a very pronounced, buzzy headtone.

I hope that folks enjoyed the songs, and thanks to those who participated. I'll look for some more puzzlers.

All best,
Johnm 

   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 20, 2022, 04:28:43 PM
Hi all,
It's been a while since we've had any new puzzlers so I thought I would post a couple for those of you who are interested. The first is "Motherless Boy" by Spark Plug Smith. Here it is:

https://youtu.be/3soq2BCpkjg

The questions on Spark Plug Smith's "Motherless Boy" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did Spark Plug Smith fret what he played in the tenth bar of each one of his verses?

The second puzzler is "Quarrellin' Mama Blues" by Arthur Pettis, for which he was joined by an unknown pianist and a harmonica player believed to have been Jed Davenport. Here is "Quarrellin' Mama Blues":

https://youtu.be/6IUqcnCxvYk

INTRO

I wonder how come, you do me like you do
Lord, if I were to help you, it's a good deed you do

I'm tired of your evil, low-down and dirty ways
Oh, I'm tired of your evil, low-down and dirty ways
I don't want me 'round you, I sure don't want to stay

I been a good boy, you tryin' to treat me mean
I been a good boy, you tryin' to treat me mean
Then you treat me like a, poor boy you never seen

Oh good looks gon' help you, but it's the way you do
Oh good looks gonna help you, but it's the way you do
No decent behavior, the hearse will take you, too

Now you're arguin' and you're quarrelin', each day and every night
Oh, you're arguin' and you're quarrelin', each day and every night
End your arguin' and your quarrelin', then I will treat you right

Edited 9/3 to pick up corrections from Blues Vintage
Edited 9/9 to pick up corrections from banjochris and Blues Vintage

The questions on Arthur Pettis' Quarrellin' Mama Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * What did you hear that made you arrive at your decision as to his playing position/tuning?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time this coming Saturday, July 23. Thanks to those who participate and I hope folks enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on July 25, 2022, 09:11:55 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Spark Plug Smith and Arthur Pettis puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on July 26, 2022, 07:57:15 PM
For Spark Plug Smith I think it’s:

Standard tuning, G position (actual key is A, slightly flat on recording)

10th bar he’s playing a 6 chord - E7 in key of G, or F#7 in key of A. Sounds like C7 shape moved up between frets 5-7 if in key of G

For Arthur Pettis I think it’s:

Standard tuning, A position (actual key B, recording is a little flat.)

What makes me think this is correct is the long A to A7.

There’s a lot of interesting stuff in this one. I like them both, I hadn’t heard of Spark Plug Smith before.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on July 28, 2022, 11:43:33 AM
I was thinking A standard for both these, but don't have a guitar to hand just now as we're away our holidays!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on July 29, 2022, 10:48:21 AM
I'm pretty sure Pettis' "Quarrelin' Mama" is in G position, not A, capoed up to B or so.

I think the main thing that makes it sound like A position at first is the sort-of growling bass, especially at 1:05 or so, but those are the piano – the timbre of it is very close to the guitar.

A few things that point to G:
In the intro at about 0:06, he plays a roll from the third fret of the 3rd string to the open 2nd string – not impossible to execute out of long A, but much less common.

Ditto with his licks around the 4-3 double stop on strings 3 and 2, going down to the open strings. Again, possible in A at 6-5 down to the barred A, but more unwieldy.

His V chord has the third on top sounding out, making it likely he's playing a first position D chord. Again possible in A with a 4-5-4 on the top three strings but that would be pretty unusual too.

The ones that are conclusive for me are:
He's playing the 2nd string 3rd fret along with the 1st string 1st fret for a I7 chord (along with open strings below that), which in A would make a super awkward 0-0-2-2-5-3 chord, but of course it's extremely easy to execute in G.

He ends each verse with at least part of Big Bill's verse-ending lick in G, with a slide up the fourth string to the open 3rd string. Sounds like he follows that up with the rest of that lick as well, but that first bit would not sound the same with closed strings in A.

Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on July 29, 2022, 10:55:29 AM
On "Motherless Boy" it sounds like A standard to me with the 6th string out of tune (flat). I think for that 10th bar he's playing an F#7 by just sliding an E7 chord 0-2-2-1-3-0 up two frets and avoiding the 6th string, X-4-4-3-5-0.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on July 31, 2022, 09:45:34 AM
I think G for Spark Plug Smith and Spanish for Arthur Petties
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 10, 2022, 08:39:43 PM
Hi all,
The Spark Plug Smith and Arthur Pettis puzzlers have been up for a good while, so I"ll post the answers. I think these are both trickier identification puzzlers than most that have been posted in this thread, and the Pettis track I think is particularly a tough ID.

For Spark Plug Smith's "Motherless Boy":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning. The give-away comes at :26 of his rendition, where, while playing in his I chord he alternates between the root of the I chord on the fifth string, and a low V note om the sixth string. Such an alternation would not be possible if he were playing in G position in standard tuning, since the lowest available note for G position in standard tuning would be the open sixth string, E, which is a VI note relative to G.
   * In the tenth bar of each verse, I believe he moves a closed E7 position, 2-1-3 on the fourth, third and second strings up two frets intact for a momentary F#7 chord. This move is much as Chris described it.

For Arthur Pettis's "Quarrelin' Mama":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning. The very beginning of the tune makes A position implausible, for he is hitting a sustaining V note in the bass while sliding into a D shape on the first three strings up the neck. In G position, that V note would be the open fourth string, which requires no fingering and makes the slid D position at the seventh fret no problem at all. Were he playing in A position, he'd have to hold down the seventh fret of the fifth string, E, while sliding into that D position on the first three strings at the ninth fret--highly unlikely. He could still be plausibly playing in Spanish tuning at this point, though.
At :06 he crosses strings from the minor third to the major third and resolves down to the root. In G position, that's third fret of the third string to the open second string, resolving to the open third string. In A position, everything would be moved up two frets, a pretty reachy and awkward proposition. Immediately after that, he's going back and forth between a V note on the second string and a bVII on the first string, while alternating between the third and fifth in the bass. in G position, you have that covered simply by fretting, X-2-0-0-3-1. At :25, he slides up from a VI note to a major VII note resolving into the I note on the next higher string. In G position, that's going from the second to the fourth fret of the fourth string and resolving into the open third string. The resolution into the open third string is what makes the lick plausible--in A, it would be a slide from the fourth fret of the fourth string to the sixth fret, resolving into the second fret of the third string, which would be a tough move in any event, but really rugged at the speed at which he plays the lick. Banjochris made many of these same points in his post on the song.

Particularly in the third verse accompaniment, there is a lot of stuff being played in the bass that sounds like Spanish or possibly DGDGBE tuning. but I believe that the piano is hitting those occasional low V notes in the bass over the I chord. Pettis also has a couple of fills that really sound like Clifford Gibson playing in Spanish in the treble. I think this was a really tough identification. I do believe that Pettis was playing in G position in standard tuning, primarily on the basis of what he does in the treble, which lays out beautifully in G position in standard tuning (though it would be the same there in DGDGBE tuning). In listening to this cut, I definitely found myself wishing it had been a solo track. The piano is under-recorded and has just enough volume to confuse things, and the tuning of the harmonica to the guitar and piano is pretty dire.

Arthur Pettis was criminally under-recorded, I think. I don't at all feel like the extant recordings of him give a complete picture of what he did and could do. He's unusual, too, in his ability to be an absolute android at playing like Bill Broonzy--that is so rare in this music.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope that you enjoyed the songs.

all best,
Johnm   
   
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 03, 2022, 09:10:34 AM
Hi all,
I have been trying to complete a lyric transcription of Arthur Pettis's "Quarrelin' Mama Blues" in the most recent puzzler, and would very much appreciate some help with it, both in the bent bracketed blank section and the rest of it, where I'm not at all sure I have it right. Thanks for any help--I find Arthur Pettis really tough to understand with any degree of certainty.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 03, 2022, 01:02:09 PM
The only words I can hear are:
The [               ] have you, the Lord will take you, too

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on September 03, 2022, 02:46:46 PM
That 4th verse is really hard. I gotta listen some more,


2.3 I don't want me 'round you, I don't sure don't want to stay

It's possibly arguin' in the last verse instead of hoggin'.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on September 03, 2022, 05:36:02 PM
Hi all,
I have been trying to complete a lyric transcription of Arthur Pettis's "Quarrelin' Mama Blues" in the most recent puzzler, and would very much appreciate some help with it, both in the bent bracketed blank section and the rest of it, where I'm not at all sure I have it right. Thanks for any help--I find Arthur Pettis really tough to understand with any degree of certainty.
All best,
Johnm

I cannot imagine anyone figuring that one out, with the possible exception of: "the golden lyrical ear".... banjochris! :)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 03, 2022, 06:09:14 PM
Thanks for the help, Blues Vintage and Old Man Ned. That "sure" was a typo on my part, but "arguin'" is really a great suggestion. I'm sure that's what Pettis was saying and have made the change.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 08, 2022, 03:55:43 PM
Hi all,
It's a little while since I posted some new puzzlers and I have a couple for those of you who are interested now. The first is Ma Rainey's early recording of "Farewell Daddy Blues", on which she was accompanied by an unidentified guitarist. Here is "Farewell Daddy Blues":

https://youtu.be/YyuH2dql9cc

The questions on "Farewell Daddy Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did the guitarist use to accompany Ma Rainey?
   * Describe the chord progression of the song, based on the playing position/tuning you selected.
   * Was Ma Rainey able to sing well?

The second puzzler is the last untranscribed song of Edward Thompson's, "When You Dream of Muddy Water". Here it is, and I should warn you, it is seriously whupped:

https://youtu.be/GGwNXyAK0hk

The questions on "When You Dream of Muddy Water" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Edward Thompson use to play the song?
   * Where are the two notes that the melody rocks between in the first of each verse fretted?
   * What chord that most often occurs in a blues is never played in the song?

Please use only your ears and your instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses until 8:00 AM your time on Monday, September 12. Thanks to those of you who participate and I hope that you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on September 08, 2022, 04:59:41 PM

I cannot imagine anyone figuring that one out, with the possible exception of: "the golden lyrical ear".... banjochris! :)

Thanks, Slack – but I'm having a heckuva time with that one myself! I'll keep listening though!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on September 08, 2022, 10:21:02 PM
I offer this suggestion for the questionable verse in "Quarrelin' Mama" – maybe someone else can make sense of the bracketed part. I can't make any other sense out of the beginning of the tagline other than what I have here:

Oh good looks gon’ help you, but it’s the way you do,
Oh good looks gon’ help you, but it’s the way you do,
No decent behavior, [my heart] will take you too.

Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on September 09, 2022, 05:30:53 AM
I'm tryin' to help but I'm guessing really,

No decent behavior, the hearse will take you too
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 09, 2022, 07:47:16 AM
That is really terrific listening, Chris and Blues Vintage! I had thought that the first two lines may have begun with "Good LUCK'S gon' help you, but it's the way you do.", but "looks" makes more sense, as in "beauty is as beauty does". "No decent behavior" seems a stretch, but the sound works with Arthur Pettis's unusual enunciation, and "the hearse will take you too". makes sense of the tagline, as in Bill Broonzy's "You may be beautiful, but you're gonna die someday". I'm going to add those changes to the transcription. Thank you--that was really tough, right up there with Hambone Willie Newbern's "gumbo mud" in "Shelby County Workhouse Blues".
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on September 09, 2022, 10:27:05 AM
"The hearse" is great, thanks Blues Vintage!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on September 09, 2022, 10:33:48 AM
Very impressive!  Go Team Big Ears!!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on September 12, 2022, 11:55:30 AM
"Farewell Daddy Blues" - This song is SO good. Maybe it belongs in the One of a Kind & Great thread? Never heard it before.
*I think the guitarist is playing in standard tuning, A Position.
*I'm not sure what to do with the single string runs between chords, but is the progression something in the neighborhood of: I-V-I-IV-I-VI-II-V-I  ?
*WOW!

"When You Dream of Muddy Water"
*My honest answer is I have no clue, and I don't think my answer is correct. The closest I could get to playing something similar was to capo up and play in standard tuning, Long A position.
*In Long A, I rocked between 4th fret 2nd string and open 1st string
*Thompson never plays a IV chord in this song.
Maybe it's the record, or perhaps my ears are playing tricks on me, but sometimes I think I'm hearings notes down low. I even thought there may be a 2nd guitar or a harmonica in there.

I really like both songs a lot. Excellent choices for the exercise and for listening enjoyment as well. Thank you, Johnm.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on September 12, 2022, 01:22:14 PM
Farewell Daddy Blues

Standard Tuning (1/2 step low), playing a 12-string I believe. Maybe flat picked?

I’m hearing the same as Forgetful Jones - In A, first position, same progression- I-V-I-IV-I-VI-II-V-I.

As to John’s interesting question about whether Ma can sing well:

I don’t think this song works very well - what I’m hearing is the guitarist isn’t playing a very bluesy accompaniment. I think he only plays a 7th chord on the II chord (B7). It doesn’t work well with Ma’s singing, so I put the onus on him, not her.

I messed around with Ma’s version of CC Rider awhile back. I spent a little time trying to emulate her singing on my guitar - I was impressed by Ma’s singing around the beat, and some microtonal tweaks she could do.

When You Dream of Muddy Water

So hard to listen to this. I agree with FJ that he leaves out the IV chord.

Sounds to me like open G (1/2 step low). I think the back and forth melody notes are on the 6th and 7th frets of the top string.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 14, 2022, 11:39:04 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Ma Rainey and Edward Thompson puzzlers? Come one, come all--answer as few or as many questions as you wish.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on September 14, 2022, 04:14:05 PM
I won't comment on "Farewell Daddy" because I've seen someone play it note for note so I didn't have to figure it out myself! Except to say I love this track and yes, Ma Rainey is a hell of a singer. In a way, her vocal is the accompaniment for the guitar on this piece rather than the other way around, and that takes some impressive concentration to keep that going.

Agree with Forgetful Jones on "Muddy Water" – sounds like A capoed up to me. I also agree that there's another instrument involved. It sounds to me like someone playing lap-style slide just sliding into the tonic for both the I and V chords. You can hear it most clearly around 1:07 where it suddenly slides into the third and then the tonic an octave higher than previously. You can hear it more clearly right at the end of the song as well.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on September 15, 2022, 02:42:27 AM
Like banjochris, I've seen this song performed authentically, so have a good idea of how it was played. Was Ma Rainey a great singer? Yes! By contrast, Edward sounds like a kazoo. Not his fault though!
I'm stuck with the key and playing position, but I'm going to guess he's capoed  round about the fifth fret, playing in G standard. Also, fooling around some more, I find it works well in G6 tuning too, probably my best guess at present.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 15, 2022, 01:41:07 PM
I'm struggling with "When You Dream of Muddy Water". Sounds like the IV chord is absent. The two notes that the melody rocks between sound, to me, like a G and a Gb. You'd think this would give me some indication to the playing position/tuning that Edward Thompson used but I'm as seriously whupped as the recording. I did consider going out and walking down to the crossroads for inspiration but it's raining and turning chilly outside.

Re "Farewell Daddy Blues" and Was Ma Rainey able to sing well? Ma Rainey was able to sing extremely well.

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 26, 2022, 10:38:49 AM
Hi all,
There have been no new responses for several days to the Ma Rainey and Edward Thompson puzzlers so I though I would post the answers.

For Ma Rainey's "Farewell Daddy Blues", the unnamed guitarist:
   * Accompanied her out of A position in standard tuning, as Forgetful Jones had it in the initial response and others agreed
   * The progression of the piece is varied somewhat over the course of the rendition, especially in the eighth bar. For the most part, it parses as follows:
   
    |    I    |   V7   |   I    |    I    |

    |   IV   |   IV   |    I    |   VI   |

    | V/II   |   V7  |    I    |   V7   |

The guitarist sometimes played the second bar as a Vm7, leaving the third string open with the minor third rather than fretting the major third at the first fret. The eighth bar was played variously as four beats of VI, two beats each of I and VI, or four beats of I. I like the way the treatment was varied throughout the rendition. In the ninth bar, I never actually hear a II or II7 chord played--in most verses the guitarist just emphasizes the II note at the second fret of the fifth string, and at other times simply plays a V7 chord.

I particularly like this guitar part, and especially like the way that the guitarist plays across the first four bars of the form, harmonizing with Ma Rainey's vocal in a way that is both very pretty and quite unusual. I also like the ways the guitarist varies the accompaniment over the course of the rendition. I suspect the guitarist would have been happier being given another crack at the coda, but the person in charge of the session was probably happy with Ma's take and so they stopped there.

The question I posed about Ma Rainey's singing was intended to be rhetorical. God, I love her singing. She had a "sadder but wiser" quality that comes across in her singing that I find really affecting.

For Edward Thompson's "When You Dream Of Muddy Water":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as Forgetful Jones and banjochris had it. The giveaway is the V7 chord, which is an E7 position in standard tuning.
   * In his primary melodic lick, he is rocking back and forth between the fourth fret of the second string, the bV of the A position in which he is playing, and the open first string, the V of of A position. This is just as Forgetful Jones had it.
   * Edward Thompson never plays a IV chord in the course of the song.

I agree with Forgetful Jones and banjochris that Edward Thompson is joined by a seconding guitarist (uncredited in DG&R) who sounds to be playing Hawaiian lap-style slide, focusing mostly on the bass strings . If you can stand listening to Edward Thompson's vocal enough to get some of his lyrics, it turns out that he is singing a version of "Red River Blues", or at least he has two "Red River Blues" verses in the song. I may make it a long-term project to try and figure out all of his lyrics.

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzlers, and I hope that people enjoyed the songs. I'll look for some more to post.

All best,
Johnm

 
     
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on September 26, 2022, 11:47:17 AM
John – on "Farewell Daddy" I had seen Frankie Basile's great performance of the tune years ago and he plays it out of D position, tuned down on the 12 of course. It sounds so much like the original that that's where I assumed it was. Isn't there a low root note for the IV chord that's fretted – that sounds like a G chord to me, with the little riff going up to the open third string.
Chris

https://youtu.be/lJgDT35sg6c
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 26, 2022, 12:22:41 PM
Hi Chris,
I don't think so. The lowest pitched note ever voiced on a IV chord is the third, at the second fret of the sixth string. And in the  "Pig starts to singin'" verse, 1:51--1:53, the guitarist plays a bass run leading directly downward to the root of the IV chord, which he then jumps up an octave to resolve, something he never would have done had the low root of the IV chord been available. Plus the VI chord is definitely voiced as an F#, not as a B, which is what it would be if played out of D position, wherever it was tuned.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on September 26, 2022, 01:36:29 PM
Thanks John – I definitely hadn't played around with it myself on guitar, just listening to the recording. Appreciate the extra analysis!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on September 26, 2022, 06:28:01 PM
As I mentioned in my reply, I really enjoyed the songs for this last exercise, especially the Ma Rainey song. Frankie plays it so well too, in his own way. Thanks for including that video clip, BanjoChris.

Thanks again for taking the time to put these together, JohnM. This thread has made me a better listener. I was eagerly anticipating the answers to this one.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 02, 2022, 12:11:43 PM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested. The first is from Sylvester Cotton, and it is his "Pay Day Blues". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/-mDssiLKb10

INTRO

Baby, you don't care, since I worked in the foundry 'n' all day
Baby, you don't care, since I worked in the foundry 'n' all day
Lord, you don't care, mama, since I bring you home my pay

Lord, you know I work hard, six days every week
Lord, you know I work hard, woman, six days every week
How I did all, I come home, you won't have to fix me nothin' to eat

Now, now, woman, girl, you made me work hard on --
Hey, woman, you made me work hard every day
If I didn't love you, woman, Lord, I stay so far away

I'm gon' build me a house, way out on a farm
I'm gon' build me a house, baby, way out on a farm
So we can be way out there, baby, the city folk won't know why

Now, maybe then, baby, maybe I can get some rest
Hey, hey, woman, maybe I can get some rest
'Cause if I don't get no rest now, woman, it'll cause me my judgement day

You don't want me to die, woman, die away and leave you now
I know you don't want me to die, die away and leave you now
'Cause I'm the only man you can find that will treat you so kind

Well now, bye, little woman, I'm goin' away far from you
Hey, hey, wom', I'm goin' so far away from
Now bye, little woman, Lord, poor me have to go

Edited 12/11 to pick up corrections from Blues Vintage, Johnm
Edited 12/12 to pick up corrections from banjochris, Johnm, Blues Vintage

The questions on "Pay Day Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Sylvester Cotton use to pay the song?
   * Where, relative to capo placement, did Sylvester Cotton fret the lick he does over the IV chord, from :51--:54 and elsewhere in the song

The second puzzler is from Blind Jim Brewer and it is his "Hair Like A Horse's Mane". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/P4pqNN-pfn8

INTRO

I love you, baby, and I tell the world I do
I love you, baby, and I tell the world I do
Your ways and actions shows your love is true

Aw, run here, mama, sit on your daddy's knee
Lord, run here, mama, and sit down on your daddy's knee
I got something to tell you, baby, will set you free

SOLO

I don't want no woman, she got hair like drops of rain
I don't want no woman got hair like drops of rain
The woman I love, she got hair like a horse's mane

SOLO (Spoken: Oh yeah! goin' down the road)

I love you, baby, and I want you for myself
I love you, baby, and I want you for myself
I don't want you, woman, lovin' nobody else

Now run here, baby, set on your daddy's knee
Lord, run here, mama, and set down on your daddy's knee
I got something to tell you, baby, will set you free

INTERLUDE

I love you, baby, I want you right here by my side
I love you, woman, I want you by my side
You the only woman keeps me satisfied (Spoken: Yeah, you do, really!)

SOLO (Spoken: now let's move it on down the road now. Oh yeah!)

The questions on "Hair Like A Horse's Mane" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jim Brewer use to play the song?
   * Where did Jim Brewer fret what he plays from :14--:16?
   * Where did Jim Brewer fret the chord he plays at :35--:36, and what is that chord?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Wednesday, October 5. Thanks for your participation and I hope that you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 08, 2022, 06:15:31 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Sylvester Cotton and Jim Brewer puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on October 10, 2022, 01:10:29 PM
For Sylvester Cotton's  "Pay Day Blues", I think, is A standard tuning (capo placement around the 2nd fret)
I'm hearing the lick over the IV chord to be fretted at the 10th fret (relative to capo).

For Jim Brewer's "Hair Like A Horse's Mane" I'm hearing in Vestapol tuning. This was bugging me, as listening to Jim Brewer, I kept being reminded of Hayes McMullan for some reason and I don't think he recorded in that tuning. But it sounds like Vestapol to me. I'm still needing to figure out the other 2 parts to the puzzler. This is going take some more listening, which is no hardship. I'm unfamiliar with Jim Brewer but I really like this recording.

All the Best,
Ned

Between :14--:16 is Jim Brewer fretting with the first and second fingers on the 3rd and 4th strings. Moving the position up one fret from the 2nd fret/3rd string & 3rd fret/4th string then back down before playing the open strings?

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on October 11, 2022, 02:39:47 AM
I'm with Ned, A standard and Vasterpol.
Sylvester is in Lightnin'Hopkins mode and uses some of his licks but it's a little more attack \i think.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 14, 2022, 12:37:55 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Sylvester Cotton and Jim Brewer puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 17, 2022, 04:59:08 AM
Just to mix things up I’ll say Spanish for the first, and Vestapol for the second!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: rein on October 17, 2022, 05:00:56 AM
To me sylvester cotton sounds more like Lil Son Jackson than Lightnin Hopkins. Also I wonder whether it isnt in Spanish or another tuning or position with the tonic in the third string becuase of the prominent bend third ? The lick is then from the fifth chord on the 7th 9th an 10th fret.
The Jim Brewer song really reminds me of 'thats no way to get along' and other adaptations of Vestapol
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on October 17, 2022, 05:30:38 PM
Jim Brewer sounds like Vestapol tuning to me.
At :14-:16, I think he is fretting 4th string 2nd fret with 3rd string 1st fret, then sliding that shape up one fret, then back down one fret.
At :35-:36, it is the same shape and strings as above, but he slides from the 2nd and 1st frets two frets up, then back down by half steps.

Dave
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on October 17, 2022, 05:42:21 PM
Cotton sounds like A position standard tuning. That lick is way up at the 11th fret on the first string, followed by 10th fret, 8th fret same string, then 10th fret, second string. Then, 9th fret third string and 10th fret second string struck together. Then repeats the first four notes the same way, followed by moving down to a partial cowboy A chord - maybe just the fourth and third strings.
Possibly the highest note is achieved by bending up from the 10th fret.

Dave
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 24, 2022, 10:00:39 AM
Hi all,
There have not been any new responses to the Sylvester Cotton and Jim Brewer puzzlers in several days, so I'll post the answers.

For Sylvester Cotton's "Payday Blues":
   * His playing position was Spanish tuning, as Prof Scratchy and Rein had it.
   * His IV chord lick, from :51--:54 and elsewhere throughout the song is fretted with the index finger fretting the eighth fret of the second string followed by a walk-down of the first string at the eleventh, tenth and eight frets, then returning to the eight fret of the second string. The lick really has an unusual, distinctive sound--the notes he's hitting, relative to the IV chord are V-b9-I-bVII-V. You can try transposing the lick to other keys, like using it for an A chord in an E blues, at the fifth fret of the second string, sixth, fifth and third frets of the first string, and then going back to the fifth fret of the second string where you started.

Sylvester Cotton recorded a number of titles in Detroit in the post-War period. I have him on an anthology, which he splits with Andrew Dunham, who also recorded in Detroit around that time, and whose terrific track "Sweet Lucy Woman", is inexplicably omitted from that anthology. "Sweet Lucy Woman" was the very first puzzler posted in this thread. Go back and listen to it if you haven't heard it for a while or heard it before. It is really great and raw!

For Jim Brewer's "Hair Like A Horse's Mane":
   * His playing position/tuning was Vestapol tuning as all who responded had it--good work!
   * For his lick at :14--:16, Dave Kaatz described its placement on the neck perfectly in his post two posts prior to this one.
   * At :35--:36, the chord that Jim Brewer frets is located at 0-2-2-1-0-0, and is thus fingered like an E chord in standard tuning. In Vestapol, assuming he's tuned to Open D, that position works out to being an E minor chord on those three fretted strings, held over the D note droning on the sixth string. It's a really pretty sound that I don't recall hearing other guitarists use in Vestapol tuning before.

Thanks to all who posted answers to the puzzlers, and I hope that you enjoyed the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on October 24, 2022, 11:49:02 AM
Sorry I missed this edition of the puzzlers.

Johnm- the chord shape you describe in Hair Like a Horse's Mane (:35-:36) was used in The Allman Brother's Band "Melissa." I'm pretty sure Greg Allman is playing the acoustic on that recording.

Cheers
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 29, 2022, 01:44:50 PM
Hi all,
I have a couple of new puzzlers for those of you who are interested. The first is from Arzo Youngblood, and it is his "Goin' Up The Country Blues". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/hy2XaNzI_A8

INTRO

Well, I'm gwine up the country, don't you want to go?
Well, I'm gwine up the country, don't you want to go?
Well, I'm goin' take you to the place, where you never been before

Well, I stayed out all night long, baby, brought it all on myself
Yes, I stayed out night long, well, it all on myself
You know I wasn't with you, baby, wasn't with nobody else

Well, one day, baby, you gonna learn my mind
Yeah, one day now, woman, you gon' learn my mind
I'm gon leave here, baby, got for me, bring you down

Well, bring me my pistol, baby, shotgun and my shells
Babe, bring me my pistol, shotgun and my shells
'Cause I know my little woman, sure gon' give me hell

CODA


The questions on "Goin' Up the Country Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Arzo Youngblood use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret his signature lick that he plays twice consecutively from :09--:13 and throughout his rendition?

The second puzzler is Cecil Barfield's "Georgia Blues". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/PyJTxcZlEKw

The questions on "Georgia Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Cecil Barfield use to play the song?
   * What strings and at what frets did Cecil Barfield play the bass line he plays twice consecutively from :27--:31?
   * In the course of his rendition, Cecil Barfield frets the guitar in only five places. At what frets and on what strings are those five places?

Please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, November 1, and please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers. Thanks for your participation, and don't feel you have to answer all of the questions--answer only the ones you care to answer. I hope that you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 05, 2022, 07:55:46 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Arzo Youngblood and Cecil Barfield puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 08, 2022, 08:27:34 AM
Is Arzo Youngblood playing "Goin' Up the Country Blues" out of E position, standard tuning, with the signature lick:
-----0--0------------------
-----0--0--0--2-----------
-----1--1--------0--1-----
-----2--2---------------2--
----------------------------
-0--------------------------
?

Cecil Barfield is unique isn't he?
The position & tuning of "Georgia Blues"? I'm pretty sure it's standard tuning. The playing position I'm caught between E or G, but I'll go with G. The 5 places the guitar is fretted:
6th string, 3rd fret
4th string, 2nd fret
3rd string, 2nd & 3rd fret
2nd string, 3rd fret.

All the Best,
Ned

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 10, 2022, 07:39:45 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Arzo Youngblood and Cecil Barfield puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 10, 2022, 01:22:59 PM
Yeah, come on guys. Don't leave me hanging here on my own :-)

All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on November 10, 2022, 05:50:17 PM
Arzo Youngblood "Goin' Up the Country Blues"
I think he's in Standard Tuning down a step or so, playing in G Position
Riff: 3rd fret 1st string, 3rd fret 2nd string, open 1st string, 3rd fret 3rd string, Open 2nd string, Open 3rd string

Cecil Barfield "Georgia Blues"
I think he's in Standard tuning down a bit, E Position (but no 3rd)
Bass line: Open 6th, 2nd fret 4th string, 3rd fret 6th string, 2nd fret 4th string, open 4th, (open 5th as he plays the riff on 3rd string)

5 fretted notes:
3rd fret 6th string
2nd fret 4th string
2nd & 3rd frets 3rd string
3rd fret 2nd string
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on November 10, 2022, 05:54:27 PM
Old Man Ned- How do you get that TAB layout all lined up?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on November 10, 2022, 07:54:53 PM
Nothing fancy. I just used the hyphon key --- , a number and start a new line for each string.

All the best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on November 12, 2022, 04:37:08 AM
For some reason I get them both in E standard. Same fingering as Ned.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on November 18, 2022, 12:10:11 PM
Hi all,
It has been a little while since there have been any new responses to the Arzo Youngblood and Cecil Barfield puzzlers so I'll post the answers.

For Arzo Youngblood's "Goin' Up The Country Blues":
   * his playing position/tuning was G position in standard tuning, as Forgetful Jones had it. You can tell because he uses a C7 shape voicing for both his V7 chord and his IV7 chord, and if he had played it in E position in standard tuning, that sound would not have been plausibly available, in terms of execution. Also, his signature lick is a G position give-away.
   * His signature lick from :09--:13 and throughout the song was fretted as follows: It starts on the + of beat one at the third fret of the first string, on 2+ it goes from the first fret of the first string to the third fret of the second string, on 3+ it goes from the open first string to the third fret of the third string, and on 4+ it goes from the open second string to the open third string. It sits beautifully for the fretting hand in G position and you can play the whole thing using the little finger for the third frets and the index for the first fret. One way you can tell it is in G position is that you can hear him cross strings when he goes from the third fret of the second string to the open first string, and when he goes from the third fret of the third string to the open second string.

That signature lick is quite similar to the signature lick that John Jackson played for his "Bear Cat Blues', which he also played out of G position. You can hear that song in the John Jackson Lyrics thread.

For Cecil Barfield's "Georgia Blues":
   * His playing position was E position in standard tuning
   *  In re-listening to Cecil Barfield's bass run that he plays twice from :27--:31, I realized that he does not play the line the same way both times. The first time he goes from the open sixth string, leaves a rhythmic space, then goes from the third fret of the sixth string to the second fret of the fourth string to the open fourth to the open fifth string. The second time he plays the line he fills the rhythmic space, playing open sixth, open fourth, third fret sixth, second fret fourth, open fourth, open fifth. It's a wonderfully ambiguous line in terms of establishing a key center--it starts on the low E that the song in in the key of, but ends on the IV note, A. It ends up being resolved in the treble, though, with a slippery little run that ends on the E note at the second fret of the fourth string before the bass line repeats. The way that Cecil Barfield consistently found new sounds which still spoke in the musical language of the blues reminds me of Robert Pete Williams.
   * Forgetful Jones nailed the five places where Cecil Barfield fretted the guitar the course of playing "Georgia Blues": third fret of the sixth string, second fret of the fourth string, second and third frets of the third string and third fret of the second string. Well done!

Both of these performances, by Arzo Youngblood and Cecil Barfield, just seem to have so much juice and vitality to me. I really appreciate the extent to which they appear to be playing just what they hear. I hope that people enjoyed the songs and thanks to Old Man Ned, Forgetful Jones and blueshome for participating.

All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 10, 2022, 08:27:11 AM
Hi all,
It's been a little while since we've had any new puzzlers, so for those who are interested, here are a couple. For these ones, we'll just be looking for the playing position/tuning. The first is from Eugene Powell, and it is his "Police in Mississippi Blues", elsewhere called ".44 Blues". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/lYJErC21MC4

What playing position/tuning did Eugene Powell use to play "Police In Mississippi Blues"?

The second song is also by Eugene Powell, and it is his "So Cold In China". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/9p3B9mNhQPU

What playing position/tuning did Eugene Powell use to play "So Cold In China"?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, December 13. Thanks for your participation and I hope that you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on December 10, 2022, 05:02:36 PM
Wow, he really sounds like Hacksaw Harney on that "So Cold in China" – both of those are great cuts, John, thanks for sharing!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: lindy on December 10, 2022, 10:42:37 PM
Wow, he really sounds like Hacksaw Harney on that "So Cold in China" – both of those are great cuts, John, thanks for sharing!
Chris

I thought the same thing, Chris. I only discovered this evening that Powell and Harney were good buds:
https://melaniesaxtonmedia.com/hacksaw-harney/
Lindy
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 11, 2022, 10:41:46 AM
Hi all,
I've been trying to transcribe the lyrics for Sylvester Cotton's "Pay Day Blues", at https://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=10188.msg113953#msg113953 in this thread, and would very much appreciate help with a couple of bent bracketed places. Thanks for any assistance.
All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on December 11, 2022, 11:40:51 AM
Man, that's tough, I got some suggestions for the third verse first,

3.1 Now, now, woman, now girl you made me work hard on --

3.3 Well if I


I'm kinda guessing at this point not really hearing,

For the first mystery line,   So we can be way out there, baby, the to see so far ?
Second one let a poor man have his way
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on December 12, 2022, 11:39:44 AM
4.3 So we can be way out there, baby, THE CITY'S [STUFF/DONE/WA'N'T] GOIN' NOWHERE
not sure of that one word

6.3 Now bye, little woman, LET POOR ME HAVE [TOO]
is as close as I can come.

Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 12, 2022, 01:26:05 PM
Thanks for the suggestions, Blues Vintage and banjochris. I incorporated some of each of your suggestions. I ended up hearing the space in 4.3 as:
    So we can be way out there, baby, the city folk won't know us

and 7.3 as:
   Now bye, little woman, Lord, poor me have to go

I'm pretty sure that what I have for 7.3 is correct, considerably less sure about what I have for the end of 4.3, though the phonetics sure seem right. If I'm way off base, I figure you'll let me know.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on December 12, 2022, 03:41:30 PM
Those both sound right on to me, John! A nice group effort on that one :)
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on December 12, 2022, 03:56:21 PM
I don't hear "us" at all. I keep listening but now I'm leaning towards (but far from sure);

4.3 So we can be way out there, baby, the city folks won't know why or the city folks wonder why


Some further suggestions;

2.3 you won't have to fix me nothin' to eat

4.2 I'm gonna build me a house

5.1 Now, maybe then, baby, maybe I can get some rest

I think he does sing "from you" real fast and swallowed in 7.2

7.2 Hey, hey, wom', I'm goin' so far away f' you
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 12, 2022, 04:49:11 PM
Thanks for the additional suggestions, Blues Vintage. I think 4.3 does end "won't know why". I also heard the 2.3 and 5.1 suggestions, but not 4.2, where he says "gon'" in the first two lines the very same way.  I think in 7.2 he says "from" at the end of the line and stops it there. I think this one is done. Thanks to you and Chris, a team effort as he said.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 15, 2022, 09:32:49 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Eugene Powell puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 17, 2022, 07:00:26 AM
Love Eugene Powell.

I'm hearing both in standard tuning. "Police In Mississippi Blues" in E and "So Cold In China" in A.

All the Best,
Ned.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 19, 2022, 09:24:12 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Eugene Powell puzzlers?
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on December 22, 2022, 05:08:06 AM
I'm listening without a guitar handy.

I think Police in Mississippi is in standard tuning, E position. I find it interesting that he doesn't dig into the Low root note like many other players do when playing in E (if that's, in fact, where he is).

I think So Cold in China is in A.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on December 22, 2022, 12:51:27 PM
Just got to it. I'm with the others E and A
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 26, 2022, 09:12:48 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Eugene Powell puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 28, 2022, 10:52:32 AM
Hi all,
It appears that everyone who is going to respond to the Eugene Powell puzzlers has done so by now, so I will post the answers.

For Eugene Powell's "Police in Mississippi":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning. I don't think this was an obvious identification. If you listen to the beginning of the tune, once he starts playing time, at :03, he sounds, in the treble, to be playing a standard sort of E position in standard tuning phrase, which in that position involves fretting the seventh fret of the first string, bending the eighth fret of the second string and going to the ninth fret of the first string. If you listen to his alternating bass, though, he's alternating from a low VI note on the sixth string up to a V note on the fourth string. That low VI note would not be available in E position in standard tuning, and if you think about what key puts its V note on the open fourth string, it is G, the low VI note of which is E. So it is that the lick Eugene Powell is playing in the treble actually has him fretting the first string at the tenth fret, bending the second string at the eleventh fret, and going up to the twelfth fret of the first string. The descending run he plays from :10--:11 sounds more like a G position, standard tuning run. From that point onward, things fall into place more naturally in G position, standard tuning. The fact that he is tuned low probably makes the identification of the tuning/playing position that much more difficult. Eugene Powell's playing on this tune is very piano-influenced. I had occasion, probably around fifteen years ago, to record this tune as ".44 Blues" for a Eugene Powell tribute CD which had a number of present-day players doing their versions of songs that Eugene had recorded, mostly on field and at-home recordings done by a variety of people.

For Eugene Powell's "So Cold In China":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--well done! The lick that he played from around :07--:09 is one that he loved, and I believe that Sam Chatmon, who never missed a chance to use it, got it from Eugene. It's a very high concept rocking move between a I7 chord and a rootless IV9 chord, with the A7 chord fretted 0-4-5-2-5-5 and the rootless D9 chord fretted at 0-3-4-2-5-5. It's the kind of move that pianists love to use and that is so much easier to play on the piano than the guitar!

A couple of you commented on the similarity of Eugene Powell's sound on these tunes to that of Hacksaw Harney, and I think that those two players, along with Bo Carter and possibly Mott Willis, were the prime exemplars of a sophisticated strain of Mississippi blues guitar playing that has gone relatively unrecognized. And I think you could make a pretty strong case for Eugene Powell, at least on commercial recordings, being one of the most criminally under-recorded guitarists in the whole style. You don't have to listen to very much of his playing to be aware of how much stuff he had worked through, and how fresh and different his sound was.

I hope that you enjoyed the tunes, and thanks to Old Man Ned, Forgetful Jones and blueshome for participating in the puzzlers. I'll look for some more.
All best,
Johnm
 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on December 28, 2022, 02:21:46 PM
Thanks for the explanation on 'Police in Mississippi' John. That one really had me scunnered. I was sure it was E. I love Eugene Powell's playing as I do Hacksaw Harney. Would loved to have seen them both live! Couldn't resist sharing this clip:
https://youtu.be/SbG1lBeAZ10
All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on December 29, 2022, 08:19:48 AM
Hi Old Man Ned,
I think what makes Eugene Powell's songs tougher than those of many players to identify the playing position/tuning of is that most Country Blues guitar playing is premised on taking what a playing position or tuning gives you, or makes readily available to you, and basing your playing around that. Eugene Powell and a very small group of other players went beyond taking what the position gave them, and played phrases that they wanted to hear that were less obviously available in the positions in which they chose to play them, and which required more work, and thus more thought for the fretting hand. So Eugene Powell ended up employing chord voicings in his fretting hand that you don't encounter in the playing of many other guitarists in the style.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 24, 2023, 08:39:36 AM
Hi all,
It's been a little while since we've had some new puzzlers, so I thought I would post a couple. The first is from Carolina Slim, and it is his "Slo-Freight Blues". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/eb7pQzN7Fvc

The questions on "Slo-Freight Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Carolina Slim use to play the song?
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret his IV chords in his verse accompaniments?
   * Where did Carolina Slim fret the two positions he is rocking between in the treble at the opening of his solo?

The second puzzler is from Robert Petway, and it is his version of "In The Evening". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/3NgbalKw1kI

The questions on "In the Evening" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Robert Petway use to play the song?
   * What chord commonly played in blues did Robert Petway omit in his rendition?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Friday, January 27. Thanks for participating and I hope that you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 30, 2023, 07:00:51 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Carolina Slim and Robert Petway puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: IanD on January 31, 2023, 07:09:24 PM
Okay, let’s see if I can get them all wrong.

Carolina Slim is in drop-D(ish), he’s playing the IV as kind of a C shape moved up two frets with a G bass, and he’s rocking between fretting the 2nd string at the 10th fret with the 1st at the 8th and then down to the 2nd string at the 6th fret with the 1st at the 5th. But really I should have tuned to him before guessing.

Petway is in G, capoed up, and he mostly leaves out the V but kind of hints at it sometimes?

By the way, John, I’m playing again after a very long hiatus.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 02, 2023, 08:31:46 AM
I'm glad to hear that you're playing again, Ian. Any other takers for the Carolina Slim and Robert Petway puzzlers?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on February 02, 2023, 05:02:57 PM
I have Carolina Slim playing in Drop-D tuning.  He fingers his IV chord such: 1st string fifth fret, 2nd string sixth fret, 3rd string 4th fret. I don't know, he might be hitting a lower open D string sometimes too. During the solo, he moves between fingering the 1st and 2nd strings on frets eight and ten, respectively, then down to five and seven, respectively.

Petway, I too think is playing in G position, standard tuning, capoed way up to sound in Db. He doesn't really fully articulate the V chord, but he does suggest it with a walk up to the root in the bass.

Nice tunes, great playing and singing by Petway.
Dave
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 05, 2023, 09:55:51 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Carolina Slim and Robert Petway puzzlers? Come one, come all.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on February 07, 2023, 02:39:01 AM
I agree with what others have said re tunings: Drop D for Carolina Slim and G standard capoed around the fifth fret and sounding in C. Petway alludes to the V chord but doesn’t play it as such.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 07, 2023, 04:48:55 AM
Just got to it. I agree with the others, drop D and G capoed way up.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 08, 2023, 10:16:23 AM
Hi all,
The Carolina Slim and Robert Petway puzzlers have been up a while, so I'll post the answers.

For Carolina Slim's "Slo-Freight Blues":
   * His playing position was D position in dropped-D tuning as all who responded had it--well done!
   * Carolina Slim fretted his IV chords in his verse accompaniments at the fifth fret of the sixth and first strings and the third fret of the second string. This gives him a very bright, open sound, voicing a G add 9 chord with root on the sixth string, fifth on the second string and 9 on the first string. With no third or seventh in his voicing, the chord has a very ringy sound that is quite distinctive.
   * He begins his solo rocking between the eight fret of the first string and the tenth fret of the second string, moving that position down three frets intact, and then back and forth. This is just as Dave had it in his response.

The song sounds like it is going to be a cover of Walter Davis' "I Can't See Your Face" as it opens, but after the first verse goes elsewhere. Musically, it comes right out of Lightnin' Hopkins' way of playing in dropped-D. Carolina Slim was one of the East Coast players to record in the post-War period to have a very strong Lightnin' Hopkins influence, like Pernell Charity and John Dee Holman.

For Robert Petway's "In The Evening":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it. Well done again!
   * Petway did avoid the V chord, as everyone also noted.

Robert Petway's playing in G provokes a somewhat complicated response for me (and perhaps, only me). He played there with great skill, and so strongly, and sang well, too. At the same time, I find his music a bit monotonous. I wonder if he had had the opportunity to record more, or over a more extended period of time whether he would have expanded his range of expression and sounds. We'll certainly never know at this point.

Thanks to all who posted responses to the puzzlers and I hope that you enjoyed the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: IanD on February 09, 2023, 03:49:11 PM
Thanks, John. I will try the Carolina Slim stuff out as soon as I can. I haven't listened to Petway much, but for me the appeal is mostly in his voice, which is pretty great.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 09, 2023, 05:41:41 PM
I think you'll have fun with the Carolina Slim piece, Ian. All of those bass runs he's playing sit so naturally in the fretting hand.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 20, 2023, 04:34:53 PM
Hi all,
I've got a couple  of puzzlers for those of you who are interested. The first is from Pete Franklin, and it is his "Sail On", from his '60s Prestige Bluesville album "Guitar Pete's Blues". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/hPazBFcy-30

INTRO

You can mistreat me here, but you can't when I go home
Baby, you can mistreat me here, but you can't when I go home
Well, I got somebody there, baby, that will make you leave me 'lone

Well, remember, baby, just before you sail away
Now remember, baby, just before you sail away
When you get back, woman, you won't have no place to stay

Right now, baby, I'm sleepin' all by myself, I can't get you, woman, I don't, want nobody else
Right now, baby, baby, I'm sleepin' by myself
Lord, I can't get you, well, I don't want nobody else

SOLO

Well, remember, baby, just before you sail away
Now remember, baby, just before you sail away
When you get back, you won't have no place to stay

CODA

The questions on Pete Franklin's "Sail On" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret what he played at the beginning of his second verse accompaniment, and where did he fret the high note that jumps in intermittently in the fill that follows it?

The second puzzler is Shirley Griffith's "Take Me Back To Mama". Here it is:
   
https://youtu.be/fzevoCUBAXw

INTRO SOLO

Take me back to Mama, set me in the corner
I'm too young to marry, I'm to young to marry
Never expects to marry, long as I can make a dollar
Take me back to Mama, set me in the corner

SOLO

Take me back to Mama, set me in the corner
I'm too young to marry, I'm to young to marry
Never expects to marry, long as I can make a dollar
Take me back to Mama, set me in the corner

SOLO

CODA

The questions on Shirley Griffith's "Take Me Back To Mama" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * What chord normally played in a blues did he omit?
   
Please use only your ears and your guitar to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM you time on Thursday, February 23. Thanks for your participation and I hope that you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 25, 2023, 06:39:19 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Pete Franklin and Shirley Griffith puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 02, 2023, 07:23:01 AM
Hi all,
Any takers on the Pete Franklin and Shirley Griffith puzzlers?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 02, 2023, 09:57:38 AM
Since no one has commented, John, I'll bite on some of them –

"Sail On" sounds like its in A position to me – I didn't check the high note part.

"Take Me Back to Mama" is in C position with no IV chord. It's more like a play-party or dance piece than a blues – reminds me some of Fiddlin' John Carson's "Engineer on the Mogull."
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 02, 2023, 11:14:52 AM
I agree with banjochris for the two identifications, and the missing IV chord in the Shirley Griffith’s one. At the start of Pete Franklin’s second verse he’s playing out of a brushed position on 3rd fret first string and fifth fret second string, interjecting a high note at the fifth fret of the first string (I think)!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 07, 2023, 09:15:35 AM
Any other takers for the Pete Franklin and Shirley Griffith puzzlers?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on March 11, 2023, 03:22:58 AM
Finally took the time to listen to these and yes, I agree with Banjochris and Prof Scratchy.
A position tuned down a fret or so for Pete Franklin with that fifth fret on the first string just jumping in and out when he's playing the top two strings at the third and fifth.
C tuned up a semitone with Shirley Griffith and no F, no IV chord. They're both cool tunes, especially the way 'Take Me Back To Mama' fits together, great singing.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 13, 2023, 11:39:33 AM
Hi all,
The Pete Franklin and Shirley Griffith puzzlers have been up for a while, so I'll post the answers.

For Pete Franklin's "Sail On":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * At the beginning of the second verse, he is sliding into the fifth fret of the fourth and second strings. This is an interesting and unusual wrinkle for a blues played in A position, standard tuning. I think we're much more accustomed to hearing a slide into the third fret of the first string and the fifth fret of the second string, a la Lightnin' Hopkins and many other players of A blues. By keeping the fifth fret of the second string but substituting the fifth fret of the fourth string for the third fret of the first string, Pete Franklin took the more commonly played third fret of the first string and dropped it down an octave, while at the same time setting up a situation in which he could get a thumb brushed unison between the fifth fret of the fourth string he was sliding into and the open third string, as well as a finger brushed unison between the fifth fret of the second string and the open first string. The sound of those two slid notes moving into unisons with the next higher strings seems kind of magical to me. The higher note that pops out of the lick that follows that opening vocal line is the fifth fret of the first string as Prof Scratchy and joe paul had it. He may sneak in a couple of third frets of the first string there, too.

For Shirley Griffith's "Take Me Back To Mama":
   * His playing position was C position in standard tuning, as all who responded had it--well done!
   * The chord normally played in a blues that Shirley Griffith omitted in the song is the IV chord, and everyone got that, too.
As banjochris noted, the song isn't really a blues anyway, being more like a play party song, a dance tune or a children's song, I would think.

Thanks to banjochris, Professor Scratchy and joe paul for responding, and I hope that people enjoyed the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 14, 2023, 01:50:12 PM
Hi all,
I"d like to propose a format change for this thread going forward. The thread has been going since 2014, and at this point there have been 382 different blues songs featured in the puzzlers. That's a lot of puzzlers, especially when many of the songs had two or three questions with regard to how they were played.

What I'd like to propose is that anyone can post a puzzler song, especially a song that he/she is trying to figure out and is stymied, either by determining the playing position/tuning or some lick in the course of the song. Once the song, with a youtube video embedded, is posted and the questions are asked, people can respond with their answers, and I will butt out, unless no mutually agreed upon answer can be achieved. I would only post where no consensus as to the answers to any questions posed is reached. I like the idea of the puzzlers being driven by people's desire to figure out how to play particular songs, and I like the idea of the group, minus me, trying to determine the answers to the questions.

Any thoughts on this proposed change of format?
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 14, 2023, 05:52:21 PM
I think that's a great idea, John – but if you find a really good one, please keep posting!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Slack on March 14, 2023, 06:31:07 PM
I'll second Chris!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on March 15, 2023, 04:24:00 AM
That sounds good to me John. Really appreciate the time that you've put into the puzzlers over the years. Trying to figure them out has certainly helped me in figuring out what's going on regards the recordings/players I'm listening to.
All the Best,
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 15, 2023, 06:36:27 AM
Thanks, banjochris, Slack and Old Man Ned for the feedback. Let's make the change. If there is a song you're figuring out or just listening to, and you're wondering what playing position/tuning was used to play it, or where its solo or instrumental fill was played on the guitar, post a video of the song and your questions in this thread and your fellow weenies can respond, answering your questions.

Thanks to the folks who have responded to the puzzlers since 2014 and who have kept the thread alive. Let's keep it going, but with me no longer operating as the puzzle wrangler.

All best,
Johnm 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 15, 2023, 07:01:14 AM
Nice move
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on March 15, 2023, 07:12:54 AM
I just read the first post about this and I really like the idea.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on March 15, 2023, 01:30:34 PM
Sounds like a good idea.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on March 16, 2023, 06:05:25 PM
Hustler’s Blues - Leroy Carr and Josh White

https://youtu.be/bNE42W9hC_o

What key and tuning is White playing in?

2nd verse, bars 9 and 10 (starts around 0:44)
- what is he playing here?
- Extra credit - what is the piano doing in bar 10? (I’m not really sure myself, looking to see what anyone else thinks.)

Beginning of 3rd verse
- where is he playing?

This moves at a pretty fast clip, so I’d say it’s OK to use ASD or whatever to slow it down. I did.

I hope I didn’t jump ahead of the line, I realize I’m a relative newbie here.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on March 17, 2023, 03:22:54 AM
Great idea John ! All your work keeping this going has been a real pleasure to follow and participate in.

Thanks MarkC for your suggestion, Hustler's Blues. That link doesn't work for me in Europe, I hope this is the same recording :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75rVWuJcpFM
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on March 17, 2023, 06:41:02 AM
Joe Paul - that’s the one.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on March 17, 2023, 01:41:34 PM
As best I can suss out:
Key of C, standard tuning.

2nd verse, bars 9 and 10, I believe he is playing at the sixth fret and fourth fret, 2n and 3rd strings respectively, then moves that up a half step, back down a half step and then, 2 and 3rd strings both at fourth fret, sliding up to the fifth fret to resolve to the C chord.

Beginning of third verse, White is playing up at the twelfth fret on the 1st string, eleventh fret 2nd string.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 18, 2023, 02:20:56 AM
Need to spend more time but sounds like Josh is, as usual, is playing out of Vasterpol tuned down.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: CJB on March 18, 2023, 07:38:12 AM
Need to spend more time but sounds like Josh is, as usual, is playing out of Vasterpol tuned down.
I think Josh White is playing in A position, capo in third fret.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on March 20, 2023, 09:03:54 AM
I’ll post what I think on Thursday, as I’ll be traveling for several days after that.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on March 21, 2023, 11:53:09 AM
CJB is probably right. That would be easier to play some of those runs in C that I heard.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on March 23, 2023, 04:27:09 PM
Hustler’s Blues

Here’s what I think:

Key of C, standard tuning as David K said

A/long A position, capoed at 3rd fret as CJB said.

2nd verse, bars 9 & 10 (around 0:44):

Bar 9 he’s playing 1st and 2nd and strings (possibly 3rd and 4th too): (I corrected this*)

xx(5)463 - G7 (R, 3, b7, R)

Bar 10:

xxx68x - A7 (3/b7) VI7 chord
xxx57x - D7 (b7/3) II7 chord
xxx46x - G7 (3/b7)  V7 chord

Then slides up to C chord to resolve.

So what’s happening is he’s replacing the IV chord in that bar with a 6-2-5-1. I found that interesting.

It was a bit more obvious to me if you drop the capo and play the top two strings:

xxxx23 (A7)
xxxx12 (D7)
xxxx01 (G7)

(I asked the question about the piano because I tried playing an F behind that bar, and it does not sound good, and I can’t tell if Carr is playing the 6-2-5-1, but I don’t think he is.)

Beginning of 3rd verse:

He’s playing in C an octave up, frets 15-18.

G on 1st string 15th fret
Eb on 2nd string 16th fret, bending up towards the major 3rd. He goes up to the 6th and flat 7 on 1st string on frets 17 and 18.

I hope this is legible. Any feedback/other opinions appreciated.

I was also surprised that no one questioned that it’s Josh White, not Scrapper Blackwell.

*I screwed up the G7, hopefully fixed now.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: waxwing on March 23, 2023, 07:08:05 PM
According to B&GR Josh White was at 2 sessions with Carr AND Blackwell on Friday 14 December, 1934 and the following Monday, 17 December in NYC. Both White and Blackwell played together behind Carr on 13 sides recorded at the two sessions, including Hustler's Blues. Blackwell backed Carr alone on 14 sides and White backed Carr alone on one song, Good Woman Blues, to which Blackwell contributed some spoken words. There has been previous discussion on this forum of these recordings. (Many of these sides were alternate takes and many were never issued.)

So I'm guessing it's possible that one was playing C at standard (White?) and the other was capo at 3rd and playing in A (more likely Blackwell)?

Wax

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: MarkC on March 23, 2023, 07:21:24 PM
Wax -
I was aware that both White and Blackwell are listed as both playing on Hustler’s Blues, but I think that’s a mistake. I really only hear one guitar. There’s one track (I can’t remember which at the moment) that they’re both playing on that really doesn’t sound good IMO. I meant to review the tracks you mentioned, I just haven’t had time.

Added: I can’t say I know much about Blackwell’s playing, but the 3rd verse playing way up the neck sounds more like what I think of as fitting Blackwell’s style, so maybe it’s possible. Hope others who know more than me weigh in.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: CJB on March 24, 2023, 06:39:51 AM
Wax -
I was aware that both White and Blackwell are listed as both playing on Hustler’s Blues, but I think that’s a mistake. I really only hear one guitar. There’s one track (I can’t remember which at the moment) that they’re both playing on that really doesn’t sound good IMO. I meant to review the tracks you mentioned, I just haven’t had time.

Added: I can’t say I know much about Blackwell’s playing, but the 3rd verse playing way up the neck sounds more like what I think of as fitting Blackwell’s style, so maybe it’s possible. Hope others who know more than me weigh in.
I'm pretty sure it's Josh White, on "Hustler's Blues" at 1:23 he plays a very similar phrase like in "Little Brother Blues", another song in A position. https://youtu.be/9ISftWNQ0dg
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 24, 2023, 09:45:05 AM
I only hear one guitar as well, and it's definitely White playing guitar, not Blackwell – they have very different styles and sound like themselves if you know what I mean. White's playing is a lot busier than Blackwell's.

White is definitely playing in A position, capoed up – the biggest giveaway being the open 6th string he hits in the bass during turnarounds.

Sounds to me in bars 9/10 of the second verse like he's playing a regular E7 chord, then moving it up 2 frets and walking it down a fret at a time before resolving it to the A.

And the high part is taking a D-shaped A chord which would be 9-10-9 on the top 3 strings and moving it up 3 frets to 12-13-12, and also getting notes on the 14th and 15th frets of the 1st string.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on March 24, 2023, 10:44:05 AM
Having re-listened with a guitar, I think Chris has down
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on March 26, 2023, 11:37:47 AM
Alright, I got one. Can anybody can figure out exactly what Mance Lipscomb plays from 1.04 to 1.07?
He's in A Position, drop-d. Goes from a E chord to a D chord, plays a beautiful run.


Mance Lipscomb - Goin' Down Slow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6phZSOxzLA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6phZSOxzLA)
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 27, 2023, 09:42:18 AM
One of my favorites – he's playing a regular 1st position E7 chord (thumb wrapped around the neck for the low E since he's in drop D), hammering on to the 1st fret 3rd string, then open 1st string, then 3rd fret 2nd string.

He plays a quick open 1st string as he changes to his D7 (or D9 I guess, but here he doesn't play the 1st string) chord, which has an F# in the bass – he fingers it
0-0-4-2-1-0
he kinda slides into that 4th fret 4th string note, then just goes up each string playing the chord, so 4th fret 4th string, 2nd fret 3rd string, 1st fret 2nd string. With that low D booming away, as you say, a beautiful run.

Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on March 27, 2023, 07:50:44 PM
I love this clip. In the run mentioned (1:04-1:07), does Mance up-pick with the thumb at one point?

Mance is such a unique player. Even when you hit all the right notes, it's hard to pull off his exact sound.

Cheers
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on March 28, 2023, 03:19:47 PM
I love this clip. In the run mentioned (1:04-1:07), does Mance up-pick with the thumb at one point?

Mance is such a unique player. Even when you hit all the right notes, it's hard to pull off his exact sound.

I don't think so, I think he's dropping his thumb down to hit the 4th string but I don't think he's catching on the way back. He's doing a lot in that little section though!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on March 29, 2023, 02:48:49 PM
Thanks, Chris.
I'll second Forgetful Jones, I try to play that exact run (like Chris explained it) but I'm having a hard time to sound like Mance.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on March 29, 2023, 03:54:50 PM
I think when Mance plays that beat four triplet in the E7 measure, he gets the F and F# on the fourth string with two very quick downstrokes of his thumb and picks the third note of the triplet, the second fret of the third string, with his index finger. He hits those two downstrokes with his thumb so quickly it's almost a blur.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 25, 2023, 04:20:40 PM
Hi all,
I realize this thread has gone more or less dormant but I discovered some recently posted performances by a really interesting player, Mott Willis, of Mississippi, and thought I might revive the thread for two numbers. The first is "Dresser Drawer Blues". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/_QcUTc41lrI

INTRO SOLO

My babe was a dresser, I rambled all through her drawers (Spoken: Yeah)
I say my babe was a dresser, I'd search all through her drawers
I wouldn't stop searching, 'til I found her Santa Claus

Long, tall woman, she wears a top hat
A long, tall woman, she wears her top hat
I love that woman, what do you know 'bout that?

Quit your shoutin', gal, let your habit come down
I said quit your shoutin', (Spoken: Kind of mean old gal) and let your habit come down
Told you, babe

CODA


The questions on "Dresser Drawer Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Mott Willis use to play the song?
   * Where did Mott Willis fret the two brushed triplets he played in the treble around 1:36?
   * Where did Mott Willis fret the dissonant chord he hits in the treble at 1:56?

The second song, also by Mott Willis, is "Bad Night Blues". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/p7gCE0qc-qQ

INTRO

I was out one bad night, baby, I was travelin' through the land (Spoken: Real lonesome)
I was out one bad night, mama, I was travelin' through the land
I was lookin' for a woman, says she didn't have no man (Spoken: Yeah, I found one, you know)

I found a lady, she says she's by herself
Yes, I found a lady, she says she's all by herself
I got to love that woman, her Pop, someone else (People, let me tell you that. see I asked her)

Asked her what he was there for, she looked at me and smiled
Asked her what he was there for, she looked at me and smiled
You know by that, gentleman, that, she was makin' up a lie (Laughter, Spoken: I wouldn't too much on her, I told her,)

SPOKEN: "Listen, times are tight, gimme that gum I bought you, baby, and put it in my hand."
I said,"Gimme that gum I bought you 'fore I hurt you, and put it, put it in my hand. Don't say and try to be smart."
I say, "You're just particularly welcome, and to your other man. Good night, baby, and goodbye, too." 

The questions on "Bad Night Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Mott Willis use to play the song?
   * Where did Mott Willis fret the V7 chord that concludes his intro, at :14--:16?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Monday, April 28. Thanks for your participation and I hope that you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on August 28, 2023, 03:19:30 AM
The first one sounds to be in Vestapol, tuned low. The triplets could be sixth fret first string and eighth get second string bent? The dissonant chord sounds like first string open and second string bent at third fret.

The second song is in the same key as the first, but this time in standard tuning, I think. The V7 chord could just be the first and sixth string at the 6th fret? I can’t really figure it out, and it does sound weird!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: joe paul on August 28, 2023, 01:36:54 PM
I agree with Prof Scratchy pretty much, the first song is I think in Vestapol about a semi-tone low. I hear the triplets at 1m36 on the 2nd and 3rd string at the 12th fret but I'm stumped for the moment on the dissonant chord.
The "Bad Night Blues" sounds to me like it's played out of C standard tuned up a semi-tone, and the V7 the 1st and 4th strings fretted at the 3rd fret, with the root coming in on the 6th string too. Could be wrong though, won't be the first time or the last...
There's some really sweet playing and a great relaxed time to both songs, thanks for these John. I'll try and find that collection that these tunes are on, I'm curious to hear more.

Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on August 31, 2023, 04:17:22 PM
Any other takers for the Mott Willis puzzlers? Come one, come all!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on August 31, 2023, 05:10:52 PM
I would say Dresser Drawer is in drop-D tuning, tuned low – even though the pitch is low, a first-position D chord has a super distinctive sound with that third on the top, and he does the "Big Road" riff from that to the G7 (just 1st fret of the 1st string) quite a few times.

The closest I can get with the triplets at 1:36 is that he's maybe sliding from the 6th to 7th fret of the 2nd string while also playing the open 1st, then resolving to 7th fret/2nd string and 5th fret/1st string.

The dissonant chord I think might be playing the 2nd fret of the 2nd string (sliding in) along with the open 3rd and 1st, then resolving to the A note on the 3rd string and still playing the 2nd and 1st open. But I think there's probably more to it than that.


Bad Night sounds like it's in C standard to me, with that chord being something like:
3-2-3-0-0-3, or maybe 3-X-3-0-0-3.

Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on September 02, 2023, 11:49:23 AM
Hello all-
For the first song, I think he's in Dropped D tuning down a little bit, playing in D position. At points in the song I think I heard the familiar sound of a D shape chord on the upper strings drop down a fret and return back up.

The second song sounds like it's in C standard. Around the :46ish mark I think I hear him play the familiar change to an F chord.

Had to do this without a guitar handy, and I'd need it to take a guess at the more specific questions.

Thanks for the re-boot of this series, John. In your reveal I'd be interested in how you figured out the answers to your own questions. Can you identify those fingerings with your ears alone, or do you use your guitar to work it out?

Cheers!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Old Man Ned on September 02, 2023, 01:40:36 PM
I'm also hearing "Dresser Drawer Blues" in Dropped D tuning about a half step low. For the two brushed triplets he played in the treble around 1:36 I'm hearing this as the D shape chord on the first 3 strings moved up 3 frets.
For the dissonant chord he hits in the treble at 1:56, open 3rd and 2nd strings with 1st string held at the 2nd fret?

I too think "Bad Night Blues" is played out of C, standard tuning.
Not getting anything conclusive for the V7 chord though other than I'm hearing the 1st string, 3rd fret.

All the Best
Ned
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on September 03, 2023, 12:04:42 PM
Fancying Vasterpol for the first, the second leaps out as being in C.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on September 11, 2023, 02:48:36 PM
Hi all,
It's been over a week since the last response to the Mott Willis puzzlers so I'll post the answers now.

For "Dresser Drawer Blues":
   * Mott Willis' playing position was D position in dropped-D tuning, as several of you had it. As Chris noted, the sound of the I chord  when playing in D position in dropped-D tuning is very distinctive, placing the third of the chord on top at the second fret of the first string. More often than not, too, when going to the IV chord, that second fret of the first string resolves down by half-step to the first fret of the first string, giving you the seventh of the IV chord, G7. Mott Willis did that very move several times over the course of his rendition.
  * For the triplets that Mott Willis played in the treble around 1:36, he employed an unusual "big hand" move that I'd not heard used before. For the first note of the first triplet, he brushed the tenth fret of the third string, the seventh fret of the second string and the open first string, playing three chromatic notes, E, F, and F#, simultaneously. For the remaining notes of the triplets he fretted the second and third strings at the same frets but changed the open first string to the fifth fret of the first string. So, he was voicing the fifth of his D chord, A, at the fifth fret of the first string, the major third, F#, at the seventh fret of the second string and the minor third (or #9), F, at the tenth fret of the third string. Having the major and minor thirds on adjacent strings is what gives the sound such an abrasive "rub".
   * The dissonant chord Mott Willis played at 1:56 is very much akin to the voicing described above, except it is over the V7 chord. For that chord, he voiced the minor third of the chord, C, at the fifth fret of the third string, the major third of the chord, C#, at the second fret of the second string, and the flat seventh, G, at the third fret of the first string. This is another "big hand" voicing, and I think the fact that Mott Willis chose at various points in his rendition to play both his I chord and his V7 chord with simultaneous major and minor thirds a semi-tone apart is indicative of a very clear intention, and "big ears", hearing something in his head that would not occur to most players and seeking it out repeatedly.

For "Bad Night Blues":
   * Mott Willis' playing position was C position in standard tuning, as a number of you had it. He opens the piece with an extravagant bend of the second string at the third fret, bringing it almost up to the pitch of the open first string. His playing there sounds very Lonnie Johnson- influenced to me.
   * I think the V7 chord, G7, that Mott Willis played at :14--:16 is fingered very much like a B7 chord at the base of the neck moved up one fret and moved one string toward the bass, 3-2-3-0-0-3. Bo Carter very much favored that G7 voicing which puts the seventh on the fourth string.

I was really happy to find these recently posted videos of Mott Willis on YouTube (and there are more). I had previously only been able to find one or two of his performances, and had been tantalized by them. On the basis of what he did on these two songs I feel like he is another player from Mississippi who could be considered a sophisticate, along with Hacksaw Harney, Eugene Powell and Bo Carter.

Thanks to all who participated, and I hope that you enjoyed the songs and the puzzles. As for Forgetful Jones' query as to how I figure out the licks in the puzzlers myself, first I determine the playing position/tuning. Then I figure out what Mott Willis was playing by hearing where the notes that he  is playing live in both the chord in which he's playing and in the key in which he's playing. So for the second and third questions in the "Dresser Drawer Blues" puzzler, I could hear that in both instances he was voicing chords with both major and minor thirds, first over the I chord and then over the V7 chord. Then it just involved filling out the third voice in each of those chords, the fifth of the I chord and the seventh of the V7 chord. Being able to hear where notes live in the scale and where they live in the chord that supports them is a really helpful skill to develop, not only for the purpose of figuring out things by ear, but also for improvising and composing. I should emphasize, too, that it is a learned and learnable skill, not something innate which you're either born with or will never have. Work on it, starting with songs you already know, and then go on to songs you don't already know. Like most faculties, it improves with use, and becomes less laborious and self-conscious. After a while, you just do it. Best of luck with it!
All best,
Johnm     

     
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 05, 2023, 05:32:13 PM
Hi all,
I thought I would continue the revival of this thread for those of you who are interested. On this go-round let's confine the questions to the playing position/tuning that the musicians used to play the featured songs. The first song is an unusual and somewhat surprising cover of Blind Boy Fuller's "1000 Women Blues" by Homesick James. Here it is:

https://youtu.be/LF7POVIGZ0E

What playing position/tuning did Homesick James use to play his version of "1000 Women Blues"?

The second song is Cecil Barfield's version of "Sugar-Coated Love". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/m4fbwva9bzg

What playing position/tuning did Cecil Barfield use to play "Sugar-Coated Love"?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, October 9. Thanks for your participation, and I hope that you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 12, 2023, 09:50:26 AM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Homesick James and Cecil Garfield puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on October 12, 2023, 10:30:58 AM
I need to get back and listen closely, but I just wanted to mention, John, that each time I've seen this last post part of my brain is thinking of Cecil Barfield doing a cover of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB0kp9nXoWA
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 12, 2023, 12:24:24 PM
I know what you mean, Chris. Cecil Barfield is like Robert Pete Williams in that you never have to worry about their covers falling too close the tree. Even Cecil Barfield's cover of "Lucy Mae" has always left me with a feeling of "You can't get there from here!"
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on October 12, 2023, 03:50:05 PM
I think Homesick James is playing out of A position but in drop D tuning. If I'm hearing correctly he also plays a barred C at the 5th fret quite a bit, on a slightly unusual application of the "three frets up" principle.
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 16, 2023, 08:25:18 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Homesick James and Cecil Barfield puzzlers? Come one, come all!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Prof Scratchy on October 16, 2023, 10:43:34 AM
I remain bamboozled by both tunes, so am looking forward to the answers!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on October 19, 2023, 12:20:37 PM
Hi all,
It doesn't appear that there are going to be any more responses to the Homesick James and Cecil Barfield puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.

For Homesick James' "1000 Women Blues", his playing position was A position in dropped-D tuning as Chris had it. Note that his home position was not A at the base of the neck, X-0-2-2-2-5(0) but A at the fifth fret, more like X-0-7-5-5-5. Playing the A at that place on the neck made all of the melody notes, which he closely tracked, easily available. A couple of peculiarities of Homesick James rendition:
   * He plays the song in dropped-D tuning but never goes to the IV chord, rather incidentally brushing the open sixth string under his A chords (he played the song as a one-chorder). Perhaps he just liked the sound of that low IV note against his A chord
   * He does utilize quite a lot, especially at the end of the verses, what Chris described as a C chord, the fifth fret of the fourth, third and second strings barred. That is an application of the "three frets up" principle, as Chris noted, just taking the second fret barre of those three strings in an A chord at the base of the neck and moving the barre up three frets intact, which gives him an A minor 7 chord. The move is exactly analogous to the more commonly-encountered movement of a D chord on the first three strings being moved up three frets, but it is seldom encountered in songs in A. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one other song in A that utilized that move, Lil' Son Jackson's "No Money, No Love", though I'm sure that there are other songs that do that, too.

For Cecil Barfield's "Sugar Coated Love", his playing position was G in standard tuning. His accompaniment there is really ingenious, and has an odd sort of "inside out" quality. In his G chord, he alternates from the G note on the sixth string to the E note on the fourth string on beat two, hitting the open fourth string, D, on beat three and returning to E on beat four. He harmonizes that E-D-E movement in the bass on beats two and three by going from the open second string, B, against the E note in the bass and then resolving down to the third fret of the third string, Bb, against the open D string, and most often brushing either the open second string or the open second string and third fret of the first string on the + of beat four. This complex interior movement makes the opening phrase of each verse appear to be rocking between G, C7 with G in the bass, and G minor. When Cecil Barfield goes to the IV chord he alternates his bass between the C at the third fret of the fifth string and the Bb at the third fret of the third string, the seventh of the C7 chord. The over-all effect is quite unusual, sort of like an instrumental tongue twister. I'm so thankful that Cecil Barfield was recorded--he could so easily have been altogether missed, as I'm sure so many musicians were, except by their family, friends and neighbors.

All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on October 19, 2023, 03:35:44 PM
For Cecil Barfield's "Sugar Coated Love", his playing position was G in standard tuning. His accompaniment there is really ingenious, and has an odd sort of "inside out" quality. In his G chord, he alternates from the G note on the sixth string to the E note on the fourth string on beat two, hitting the open fourth string, D, on beat three and returning to E on beat four. He harmonizes that E-D-E movement in the bass on beats two, three and four by going from the open second string, B, against the E note in the bass and then resolving down to the third fret of the third string, Bb, against the open D string, and most often brushing either the open second string or the open second string and third fret of the first string on the + of beat four. This complex interior movement makes the opening phrase of each verse appear to be rocking between G, C7 with G in the bass, and G minor. When Cecil Barfield goes to the IV chord he alternates his bass between the C at the third fret of the fifth string and the Bb at the third fret of the third string, the seventh of the C7 chord. The over-all effect is quite unusual, sort of like an instrumental tongue twister. I'm so thankful that Cecil Barfield was recorded--he could so easily have been altogether missed, as I'm sure so many musicians were, except by their family, friends and neighbors.


Wow, I had an idea it was G, but that's a lot going on!
Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 07, 2024, 10:14:45 AM
Hi all,
I thought I'd post a couple of puzzlers for those of you who are interested. They're both from William "Do-Boy" (Dubois) Diamond, a musician who had a couple of cuts on the George Mitchell Collection. I recently became aware that he had some additional titles released on the mbirafon label. The first song is "Mississippi Flat", and here it is:

https://youtu.be/X8z0idJ7Q18

INTRO

You're cryin' babe, I'll be home some day
You stop your cryin' and, girl, and I'm comin' home to stay

Ever since my dear old mother been dead
Rock was my pillow, Lord, and the cold ground was my bed

'Way, just to worry you off my mind
You leave me worried, girl, I'm bein' bothered all the time

Bea, who made your mighty love, Bea?
It ain't none of my business, girl, but you're lookin' good to me

You marry, don't marry no farmin' man
Every day'll be Sunday, darlin', with a dollar in your hand

CODA

Spoken: That's that "Mississippi Flat".

Edited 1/19 to pick up correction from Blues Vintage


For William "Do-Boy Diamond's recording of "Mississippi Flat":
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did he fret the first four notes of his rendition and how are they articulated?

The second song from Diamond is "Shaggy Hound Blues, Take 2". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/-uwRKwsaG7w

INTRO

Awake up, woman, and tell your midnight dream
You oughta wake up, woman, then and tell your midnight dream

Well, the sun goin' down and you know what you promise me
Lord, the sun goin' down, girl and you know what you promise me

I got two little puppies, one a shaggy hound
It take all them dogs just to run my baby down

Don't the moon look pretty, shinin' through the tree?
I can see my woman but the girl, she can't see me

CODA

For William "Do-Boy" Diamond's recording of "Shaggy Hound Blues":
   * What playing position/tuning did he use to play the song?
   * Where did he play the first two signature lick iterations with which he opens his rendition, from :00--:03?

Please use only your ears and your guitars to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any responses before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, January 9. Thanks for your participation and I hope that you enjoy the songs.
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on January 09, 2024, 12:39:31 PM
For Mississippi Flat, open G tuning.

For Shaggy Hound Blues, drop D tuning, playing the lick D - C - A notes, so that the C note is played on the 3rd string at the fifth fret, where Do-Boy bends that note a little. I think the A note is played on the 3rd string at the second fret.

Dave
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 11, 2024, 10:34:04 AM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the William "Do-Boy" Diamond puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on January 11, 2024, 01:37:26 PM
I'm hearing A standard for "Mississippi Flat" – I don't have a guitar near me but the riff sounds like the open 5th string, then the A note on the third string (brushing 4th string also), then the A chord comes off to sound the open 3rd string, and he hammers back on the A chord at the second fret.

"Shaggy Hound" is harder without a guitar handy but it sounds like E standard to me with the main lick being open 1st string, 3rd fret (bent) of 2nd string, open 2nd string. The IV chord sounds like an A7 chord with the 3rd fret of the 1st string being bent as part of that lick. The bass licks for the V chord section sound to me like open, 1st and 2nd fret of the 5th string alluding to a B7 chord, which would indicate standard tuning. Again this is without a guitar around so I'm not as confident as I might be on this one.

Chris
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on January 12, 2024, 06:21:37 AM
Hello all-
For William "Do-Boy Diamond's recording of "Mississippi Flat":
- I think he's in standard tuning, down about a step. A position
- First four notes: I think he alternates index, thumb, index, thumb when playing 3rd string 2nd fret, open 5th string, 4th string 2nd fret, open 4th. Like he's fretting that A chord with his index finger and then lifting that finger for that last thumb stroke. The second time he plays it he's hitting multiple strings, and that's the closest I could get to getting that sound.

or William "Do-Boy" Diamond's recording of "Shaggy Hound Blues":
- Sounds like E standard, down a step or so.
- In the intro from :00-03 i think he first uses his thumb to play the open 6th string. Index finger plays open 1st, bent 3rd fret 2nd string, open 2nd string. I think he may also barely get the 5th string 2nd fret with his thumb while playing that bent note.
The second time around the high notes sound like open open 1st, bent 3rd fret 2nd string, open 1st. At the same time, the thumbed low notes sound like Open 6th string, Open 4th, 2nd fret 4th string.

Sorry about the clumsy wording.
I like these songs a lot, especially "Mississippi Flat." Man, George Mitchell did the world a favor getting all those recordings!

Cheers!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on January 13, 2024, 06:30:23 AM
Got to go with the others, A and E tuned down.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on January 14, 2024, 12:54:00 PM
Well, nobody agrees with my guesses, so I'm probably wrong. This is a great example of my lazy-ness, not wanting to actually tune a guitar to sound with the record. Especially Shaggy Hound, where I hear a low D, and immediately jump to the conclusion of Drop-D tuning. In retrospect, E standard is more likely for Shaggy  Hound Blues, because the signature lick is easier in that tuning.

Dave
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 19, 2024, 10:29:09 AM
Hi all,
It's been several days since there have been any new posts on the William "Do-Boy" Diamond puzzlers, so I'll post the answers.

For William "Do-Boy" Diamond's "Mississippi Flat"::
   * His playing position/tuning was A position in standard tuning, tuned low
   * The first four notes of his rendition are a I note, played at the second fret of the third string, a I note an octave lower, played on the open fifth string, and a hammer from a IV note to a V note, going from the open fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string. That hammer is enough, in and of itself, to establish his playing position as A in standard tuning. In order to get the same sounding hammer in Spanish tuning, he would have had to do the hammer from the fifth to the seventh fret of the fifth string, certainly not impossible, but technically way more complicated than the nature of his playing would make plausible. A position makes the IV note an open string, and the hammer to V is right under the hand and can be done with an index finger partial barre at the second fret.

For William "Do-Boy" Diamond's "Shaggy Hound Blues, Take 2":
   * His playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning, tuned low.
   * For his signature lick, he brushed the sixth and fifth strings with his thumb on beat one, on the + of beat one he picked the open first string, on beat two he hit a slightly bent third fret of the second string, on the +-a of beat two, he pulled off from the third fret of the second string to the open second string and plucked the second fret of the fourth string on the way down to another brush of the bottom two strings in an E chord, starting the lick over again on beat three.

I had always thought "Shaggy Hound Blues" was a Shirley Griffith original, after first hearing it on his Blue Goose album. Here is his version:

https://youtu.be/-o6D6R993RA

After hearing William Diamond's version, which obviously came from the same musical model, I've had to re-think the song's origins. I suspect it was original to neither Griffith nor Diamond, and probably came from an artist who never had an opportunity to record the song. Ishmon Bracey seems a likely candidate--Shirley played a cover of his "Saturday Blues".

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzlers, and I hope that you enjoyed the songs. Incidentally, I was transcribing the lyrics to the two songs, and I'm stuck on a place in the first line of the fourth verse of "Mississippi Flat" and would appreciate any help with that.

All best,
Johnm

 
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on January 19, 2024, 12:38:08 PM

Incidentally, I was transcribing the lyrics to the two songs, and I'm stuck on a place in the first line of the fourth verse of "Mississippi Flat" and would appreciate any help with that.

All best,
Johnm
John, I'm hearing something like:
You married, no man no farmin' man,
Every day will be Sunday, dollar bill in your hand

As in the sense of: don't marry a farmer if you want to have money.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Blues Vintage on January 19, 2024, 12:59:20 PM
Hard to hear,

Really guessing at this point,

Hey, who made your mighty love be?
Hey, who made your money love be?

Sounds it begins with "be" or 'he" instead of "hey"
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 19, 2024, 04:22:52 PM
I agree with you, Blues Vintage, that the missing phrase is "mighty love", and also that the first would in the line is "Be", though I think that both it and the last word in the line, rather than being "be", are "Bea", a woman's name, short for Beatrice. I'll make the change. Thanks!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 19, 2024, 04:27:53 PM
I think the lyric of the "marryin'" verse is correct, Dave, with the meaning being "every day'll be Sunday with a dollar in your hand" if you don't marry a farming man.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: David Kaatz on January 19, 2024, 07:05:57 PM
Did I pick the wrong verse to interpret?

Dave
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 19, 2024, 07:57:14 PM
When I first typed the message with the answers, I cited the wrong verse in "Mississippi Flat". When I realized I had done that, I went back and changed to the verse I had a question about. I think you read my message before I made the correction, Dave, and answered based on my mistake. I think that was the source of the confusion.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on January 20, 2024, 04:31:48 PM
hammer from a IV note to a V note, going from the open fourth string to the second fret of the fourth string

I am not hearing that hammer-on in those first 4 notes of the song.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 20, 2024, 04:51:39 PM
Forgetful Jones, you are right--I screwed up in the way I couched that question--I should have said, "What are the first five notes in the song?", the answer to which is: second fret fourth string on the + of beat 4, open fifth string on beat 1, second fret of the fourth string on beat two, hammer from open fourth string to second fret of the fourth string on 3+, with the second fret tied into beat 4, and the lick starting over on the + of beat four. The hammer still says A position, standard tuning, but it says it between the fourth and fifth note of the lick, not the third and fourth notes of the lick. My mistake, and thanks for the catch.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Forgetful Jones on January 21, 2024, 08:38:00 AM
After typing the previous message, I re-read your detailed answer to the puzzle and realized what you meant. I almost deleted my message. (probably should have)

Hope it didn't come across as argumentative. I very much appreciate the work you put into the puzzlers. And I like these songs a lot.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on January 21, 2024, 07:16:41 PM
No problem, Forgetful Jones. I should be corrected when I'm wrong. I certainly didn't take it ill.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 12, 2024, 09:54:59 AM
Hi all,
I have a couple of puzzlers for those of you who are interested. The first is "Trashy Gang Blues", and it features Mott willis on guitar, accompanying Willie Taylor. Here is the song:

https://youtu.be/zuZbB3B1Vh0

The questions on "Trashy Gang Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Mott Willis use to play the song?
   * Where did Mott Willis fret the bass notes he plays under the first line of each verse?

The second puzzler is Jack Owens' rendition of "Ain't No Lovin', Ain't No Gettin' Along". Here it is:

https://youtu.be/u0RfP9lSIVY

The questions on "Ain't No Lovin', Ain't No Gettin' Along" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Jack Owens use to play the song?
   * Where did Jack Owens fret the notes he hits in the bass under the first line of each verse?

Please use only your ears and guitar to arrive at your answers and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Thursday, February 15. Thanks for your participation and I hope that you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 16, 2024, 02:50:00 PM
Hi all,
Any takers for the Mott Willis and Jack Owens puzzlers? Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: banjochris on February 16, 2024, 05:43:58 PM
"Trashy Gang" is played in C position, tuned down. Sounds to me like he's sliding up to the 8th fret of the 6th string, 5th fret of 6th and 3rd fret of the 6th to get those bass notes (probably fretting with his left thumb would be my guess).

"Ain't No Lovin" sounds to me like it's in A position, I think tuned to drop D, however – I feel like I can hear the low D droning behind the IV chord when he plays it up the neck. I think Owens is playing the 5th and 4th frets of the lowered 6th string, going for a similar bass line to "Future Blues."

Both very cool tunes!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: blueshome on February 17, 2024, 05:20:05 AM
Trashy Gang sounds like C at once.
Ain't no lovin hearing the low D but thinking cross note
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: frailer24 on February 18, 2024, 10:43:08 AM
Trashy Gang is in C, haven't worked on it much yet.
Ain't No Lovin', A out of drop D, bass notes are 2nd and 4th of the low D string. You can hear that low D pretty clearly halfway through the first verse.
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 20, 2024, 12:53:51 PM
Hi all,
Any other takers for the Mott Willis and Jack Owens puzzlers? Come one, come all!
Title: Re: Miller's Breakdown
Post by: Johnm on February 24, 2024, 11:12:32 AM
Hi all,
It seems as though everyone who wanted to respond to the Mott Willis and Jack Owens puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.

For Mott Willis' "Trashy Gang Blues":
   * His playing position was C in standard tuning
   * In the first line of each verse, he is hitting thumb-popped notes on the sixth string, first sliding from the third fret up to the eighth fret, then returning down to the third fret, via the fifth fret in the first verse, and in all other verses going directly from the eighth to the third fret. What makes the phrasing against the opening line of the verse so distinctive is that he is playing the same pitches on the first string at the same frets, but he off-sets the timing between the bass and the treble with wonderful syncopation.

For Jack Owens' "Ain't No Lovin', Ain't No Gettin' Along":
   * His playing position was A position in dropped-D tuning
   * In the bass in the first line of each verse, he rocks between the second and fourth frets of the sixth string, E to F# (relative to the pitch at which he is tuned), and therefore rocking between a V and  VI note of the A chord in which he's playing. Musically speaking, Jack Owens' house had many rooms--he was anything but a one-trick pony who always played in cross-note. He had other tunes like this one that he used dropped-D tuning to play in A, and on his song, "I Love My Baby", even played in Spanish tuning with the sixth string tuned down to C, something I have never heard any other musician of his generation do.

Thanks to those who responded to the puzzlers, and I hope that you enjoyed the songs.

All best,
Johnm
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