Topic: Workshop Trends, CB Zealots - the Good, the Bad

[waxwing]

Nice looking jazzers!

Maybe we can start a new trend at PT?

I appreciate that many of you long time Country Blues Workshop participants are moving on to other things, but, say, rather than dilute the Country Blues Workshop any further (I mean it's already pretty postwar-electric-Chicago, cajun, jazz diluted as it is) why don't you both go for the Jazz workshop as well? You'd really only have to add a few days before presoak. Get all that stuff outa your system before the Country Blues camp starts.-G-

All for now.
John C.

[Rivers]

I asked about the jazz workshop. You need to be able to sight-read and submit an audition tape so they can decide whether or not to 'let you in'! Imagine that in a country blues workshop...  It's sounds pretty high level, not designed for self-taught, by-ear hackers like me.

Just a peculiarity of that particular workshop, as we all know many brilliant jazz guitarists (and other instruments) could not or would not read music. Martin Taylor is the classic contemporary example, probably the top player in the world today at what he does.

C'est la vie, I'm sure they have good reasons for being so exclusive, probably something to do with discipline, format, and the style and objectives of the workshop instructors. When they start a new workshop "Jazz guitar for the rest of us" I'll be there.

[Mr.OMuck]

I asked about the jazz workshop. You need to be able to sight-read and submit an audition tape so they can decide whether or not to 'let you in'! Imagine that in a country blues workshop...  It's sounds pretty high level, not designed for self-taught, by-ear hackers like me.

"

BEWARE! Jazz musicianship is DEATH for Blues musicians! There I said it. Weird but true. You start worrying about being "GOOD" and all the wrong things and before ya know it you're inhibited and can't play shit anymore. Same goes for Rock n' Roll. Soon as guitarists start worrying about playing as knowledgeably as Jazz guys its right down the drain with 'em! Thats my experience anyway. Just play the tunes you want to play the way YOU want to play them and let the technique-o-crats worry about
their own soulless, boring, uptight, puritanical idea of proper musicianship.
Big Bill in writing about how he'd like to be remembered specifically asked NOT to be called a JAZZ musician! A lot of the Jazz guys were real pricks to Blues players.  BB King spoke elequently about that in one of his filmed interviews.
Just a rant. mumble, mumble, .....bitch moan.....

[waxwing]

Well I'm glad you got the humor, Slack.-G- Actually, I'm wondering if the next AD may take the camp further into a "Roots" direction, incorporating even more genre, everything from pre-blues jazz to modern urban roots music, more amplification and even more concentration on the jam. I'm sure many would welcome more of a diversification and for others, well, it would make choosing classes a lot easier.-G- We'll see. Not for a while yet.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, was just making a joke, as you said, based on the fact that pre-soak overlaps much of Jazz week, yet Ted and Julie are the only ones I know who even go to the concerts.-G- Perhaps further discussions of trends at PT and the philosophy of Jazz and Blues should be split off somewhere's else?

All for now.
John C.

[Rivers]

OMuck I'm only in it for the chords. I want to run in, steal as much as I can carry, and split. They know this and that's why they won't let me in without an audition tape. If everybody did it there'd be no chords left over for serious musicians.

I don't worry about being 'good'. I'm sort of 'good enough' and will always be open to being better, until I'm dead anyway. Everything I play sooner or later sounds like country blues, even Hoagy Carmichael. I guess I'm a fusion cat.

[Mr.OMuck]

You mean Hoagy Carmichael I'SNT country Blues?

[uncle bud]

Just adding my irrelevant 2 cents to a thread where it doesn't really belong, but I thought I'd support Waxy's friendly point that diluting the country blues content of Port Townsend is problematic, and I say that as someone who has called for more early jazz content, and who also enjoyed the Travis-style lessons of Eddie Pennington this year tremendously. I guess the idea for me is early jazz, guitar-oriented material, that ultimately overlaps with the blues, rather than leading to bebop or somethin'. Arthur Crudup is cool though. But ultimately, I hope for hard-core country blues, whether it be Delta, Piedmont, Georgia, Memphis (please!) or otherwise....

But Hoagy Carmichael. Well, who can resist...

[waxwing]

Agreed. I love Hoagy. I've been thinking of trying to make a straight country version of Washboard Blues.

Up to the soap and down
Down to the muddy water
Up to the soap and down again
All day
washin'

All for now.
John C.

[Flatd7]

I appreciate that many of you long time Country Blues Workshop participants are moving on to other things, but, say, rather than dilute the Country Blues Workshop any further (I mean it's already pretty postwar-electric-Chicago, cajun, jazz diluted as it is) why don't you both go for the Jazz workshop as well?

Wax - You are the CB zealot! God bless you. I don't know, Dowlings camp seems to balance the Swing and Blues stuff pretty well. I've always seem Jazz and Swing classes as a way to play more Hokum, Ragtime and Western Swing. I picked up an L5 with a McCarty Pickup a while back. Can't seem to find the time to get together with others to play electric, but some day.

The problem with some all Jazz camps are that the learning curve can be pretty tall for folks that come out of Blues, Country or Rock. Real Jazz dudes have a tendancy to dress everything up so that anyone with less schooled technique is going to stand out like a sore thumb. Kind of the same problem as Bluegrass. It's not always an "inclusive" atmosphere.

[waxwing]

Not a fair comparison. Mike's description of his workshop, which, of course, derives directly from Mike's interests and proficiencies as a player:

Mike Dowling?s rootsy, bluesy, jazzy Greater Yellowstone Music Camp, held in the beautiful Grand Teton Mountains near Jackson Hole, Wyoming, offers the finest in acoustic blues and swing instruction for guitar, fiddle, mandolin, and bass.

And Centrum's description of its Country Blues Workshop:

The main focus of the gathering is on older prewar styles of blues, but the music and culture from derivative forms is also presented. Daily classes are offered in Piedmont style fingerpicking, blues guitar, slide guitar, harmonica, fiddle, mandolin, blues piano, blues singing, and gospel choir, all taught by masters of the traditions.

Hmmm... Note how they now leave the door open with the phrase "the music and culture from derivative forms is also presented."

But clearly this new wording is a response to many of the musicians who come to camp with a stronger desire to perform well in the jams and not really all that much interest in the pre-war blues styles. Most of the harp and piano players are more involved in post war Chicago styles of improvisation and an ever-increasing portion of the guitar players are playing more improvised single note leads and power chords or 9th chords for their rhythm playing than any sort of pre-war finger picked style. I've never heard a piano/guitar duo do anything remotely like Leroy and Scrapper, and Chezz is about the only harp player who can quote Noah Lewis or Will Shade.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with playing this music. I love to listen to it. Jazz, electric blues, swing (is that really derivative of blues?), you name it, I pretty much like to listen to it. But there was something special about coming to a camp that wasn't a "guitar" camp, with a plethora of styles, but a "country blues" camp with a real focus on that style of music. Perhaps the rebirth of interest in that era, strong in the late '90s and early '00s is fading now as many of the practitioners branch out into new interests. Totally understandable. But for those of us who came late to the party or just have a strong penchant for this music, it's kinda sad to feel the experience being diluted.

Country Blues Zealot? Does that mean I like to play the music a lot? Well, to each his own. And if there are no longer enough of us around to support a camp dedicated to the music, I guess that's too bad. For me, personally, it would be a shame if Centrum's Country Blues Workshop became more like Swannoa or some of the other smorgasbord camps, which, don't get me wrong, have their own reason for existing. Like I said, it will be interesting to see where the new AD takes, or is asked to take, the camp. But we still have Phil's last year first.

All for now.
John C.

[uncle bud]

I've been thinking about this a bit. I think the concerns are a bit premature, particularly concerning the instructional side of the Port Townsend workshop. If we look at last year's guitar teachers we see a strong lineup of people, at least 90% of whom were teaching older styles of blues and ragtime almost exclusively: Robert Belfour, Lurrie Bell, John Cephas, Eleanor Ellis, Eric Freeman, Cheick Hamala Diabate, Steve James, John Miller, Eddie Pennington, Del Rey, Paul Rishell, Lauren Sheehan, Elijah Wald, Lightnin? Wells.

Really only Lurrie Bell, Eddie Pennington and Cheick Hamala Diabate diverge from the prewar blues style (as far as the material that was being taught is concerned). Lauren, Elijah and Lightnin' can diverge as well but mainly into old-time, a good chunk of which is a related music IMO. Others like JohnM might pull some of their jazz repertoire out of their hats. But really from an instructional perspective, the camp concentrates as much as ever on prewar blues styles when it comes to the guitar side.

Where things get trickier to pin down is in the piano and harmonica areas, where as Wax notes, there is a tendency towards more modern styles in both the participants and I would say in the instructors to some degree. I think there are fewer specialists in prewar styles in these instruments, period. The repertoire that is of interest to most of the harp players comes later, after much of the music revivalist guitar players love was already becoming old. Much piano stuff  is solo performance material that verges off into boogie or early jazz. Obviously there are numerous early styles on both instruments that players could mine (as Wax notes, when was the last time you heard camp participants playing Leroy and Scrapper duets, or blowing Noah Lewis or Will Shade parts). But if you're a harmonica player and you know you have to listen to Sonny Boy Williamson as much as a guitar player might listen to Charley Patton or Blind Blake, then you are already moving into a different era and Chicago is going to be a big part of your education. As for piano, a good chunk of the piano repertoire, even early stuff, is simply more sophisticated, or in boogie styles that are less accommodating to guitar playing. Erwin Helfer got me into Speckled Red, who is just fabulous. And there's a little guitar on some of his early sides, but really it's mostly just great solo piano performances and sophisticated stuff it is. Leroy Carr, on the other hand, is really more about singing than piano playing it seems to me. So perhaps less interesting to pianists?

For harp playing in the style of a Noah Lewis or Will Shade, which is frequently a set melody and variations that act as an intro and recur between certain verses, I think the guitar players are going to have to learn the stuff themselves. That's what I plan on doing. Maybe if some harp players hear someone doing it, they'll learn the material. It would be interesting to get a teacher like Joe Filisko back to camp too.

Anyway, I think if there is any creeping modernization at PT, it is on the side of the participants. But is it really creeping or is it just there like it's always been? The participant's concert has always been rather light on country blues, it seems to me. The concept of "jamming" is itself mostly foreign on the records we "zealots" admire. The piano and harp players have always leaned towards more modern repertoires.

[Rivers]

I agree with all of the points you made above Andrew.

We've lost many of the older guys and with them the direct links to the tradition. The workshop is bound to change over time as a result. That doesn't (shouldn't) open the door to an influx of jazz or anything else. Peter and Phil seem pretty adept at striking a good balance, a little of the off-genre-but-related goes a long way.

This year was perfect for me since I'd been working on that Kentucky thumbstyle stuff combined with my half-baked jazz repertoire, and Eddie was just the ticket at that point in my playing, which was a little of that Port T magic in action, for me personally.

We just have to hope for a positive evolution. It's easy to be negative, a human lifetime is so short and what's happening at the workshop kind of brings that out for us who've attended a few over the years. Hell, I miss a lot of musicians I never even met. One day we'll all be gone too.

There. Everybody feeling better now? 

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I think the points being made here are good ones, with the most obvious perhaps being that curriculum at Port Townsend or any other similar music camp does not exist independent of the persons who will be teaching there.  It definitely is not an "Insert teacher A into slot B" type of situation, especially with the older musicians, who simply do what they do, and tend not to play or teach pieces played by other musicians in the past--nor should they.
What may be less obvious is that you sometimes have the people and skills on staff at the camp to offer exciting workshops or one-shot classes that have not been offered in the past, that don't end up being offered simply because no one asked for such workshops and it did not occur to the persons having the skills to offer such a presentation.  My sense is that the number of workshops that are planned out in advance of the camp week is not high.  There isn't any reason that such workshops or classes could not be requested in advance, though, and that would greatly increase the possibility of something actually happening.  Some of the teachers may actually appreciate suggestions that move them in a new direction rather than relying on a proven workshop they have done several times in the past.  Such suggestions/requests for workshops or classes could be either thrown out to the faculty as a whole or made of specific faculty members, because of particular skills or knowledge they may have.
I can't guarantee that teachers will honor requests, but the worse that can happen is that a request is made and there are no takers.  At best, you may get a few new interesting events that might not have happened otherwise.
all best,
Johnm 

[Slack]

I agree all the points are good ones.  Faculty, other than the older musicians, often diverge from Country Blues (sometimes quite a ways!) when they have workshops or are doing some informal performing or "jamming".  I've always enjoyed this as it opens up other avenues, like you mentioned in Speckled Red, Andrew.  I also think many of the faculty don;t maintain large repertoires of country blues - it is not a very popular musical style with the public after all.

Anyway, I think if there is any creeping modernization at PT, it is on the side of the participants. But is it really creeping or is it just there like it's always been? The participant's concert has always been rather light on country blues, it seems to me. The concept of "jamming" is itself mostly foreign on the records we "zealots" admire. The piano and harp players have always leaned towards more modern repertoires.

I think it's like it has always been.  A natural tendency is to want to play together.  Participants are getting better about trying to play CB together or in some ensemble (the jug bands and duets have been really great) - but it is tough going as many of us do not have like minded folks locally with which to play, much of the repertoire is solo, etc. - so I think we often fall back on easier and more familiar territory.  But good progress has been made by virtually eliminating the cacophony of resonator guitars doing a 12 bar shuffle.  (which I kind of miss by the way).