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Lomax: And how old is Son House? Morganfield: Oh I imagine Son .. he's ancient .. he's 'bout 47 ... - Interview #1, Plantation Recordings

Author Topic: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved  (Read 2202 times)

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Offline Hardluckchild

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Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« on: October 22, 2022, 04:32:58 AM »
Hello, everyone. I believe I've done something that many others feel they've done- solved the Willie Brown mystery. If I sound like a pretentious ass, please disregard what I just said and read only the following >:D:I listened to Future Blues and M&O Blues, and then Mississippi Bottom Blues and Rowdy Blues. M&O Blues and Future Blues display a man with gruff and coarse vocals. Kid Bailey's Mississippi Bottom Blues features a man with a lighter and distinctly soft voice. The same is true of Rowdy Blues, up until approximately the 50 second mark (!!!), when "Bailey" sings, "I don't love nobody, whole round world but you," in the exact coarse stylings of Willie Brown. "Ain't no use.." follows, in the same coarse, passionate and emotive voice. This means that Brown and Bailey are the same person. The anomaly, Mississippi Bottom Blues, with no hint of coarseness that I can detect, simply demonstrates that Brown was like Blind Willie Johnson in his ability to sing in an angelic and digestible tone at one moment, and then switch to a gruff, gravelly cigarette-coarse throaty sound. If you aren't convinced by the 4th verse of Rowdy Blues that the singer is Willie Brown, I don't know what else to say. I think that pretty much everyone will be convinced by the one minute mark if they attempt to detach themselves from the guitar playing and focus only on the vocals. This being said, I'm not a guitarist. However, I'm an excellent mimic and have a knack for picking up languages. Sorry about the self-referential crap. Without the missing piece - Rowdy Blues - I probably wouldn't have believed that the "two" men are the same guy. "Rowdy Blues," which demonstrates both of Brown's beautiful tones, has solved this mystery.

Make me a pallet on the floor was recorded by the same man. I believe it was either Lomax or Son House who said that Brown was under the weather at the time. Perhaps someone can verify this by looking at Son House interview transcripts or Lomax's The Land... book. I mentioned this because the coarseness of the second half of Rowdy Blues is there, but not of Future and M&O.
And let's also keep in mind that we're talking about an 11-year difference in recording dates. And, yes, an 11-year difference would also be the case when comparing Future and M&O to Mississippi Blues and Ragged and Dirty, but the point is that it wouldn't be the case when comparing Mississippi Blues and Ragged and Dirty to Make me a pallet on the floor! Simply put, there is no accounting for why or how the vocals and even quality of guitar work (sorry to phrase this in non-technical terms) could or should be so different between Pallet and Ragged+Mississippi.

Ragged and dirty blues and Mississippi blues are sung by a different man, a person whose enunciation is not nearly as clear as Brown's, whose vocal pitch isn't quite on the mark, and whose guitar playing is more tentative and includes some notes that I can't say are flubbed, but would have no reason for their less than perfect execution if we compare them with make me a pallet on the floor. This is where the guitarists on the forum can do an investigation.

What does everyone think?

**"Nothing I had did, but something she had heard" in Mississippi Bottom Blues, does, indeed, have some of the gruff and coarse quality in it.**

**I assume it's been mentioned elsewhere, and in and of itself it's not proof of anything, but "Mississippi Bottom Blues" contains a variant of the "poor mother's getting old" line that Charley Patton had recorded the previous year in Screamin' and Hollerin' the Blues. (Put bluntly, Brown=Bailey, is my point)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 04:59:38 AM by Hardluckchild »

Offline Blues Vintage

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2022, 04:53:30 PM »
Brown=Bailey. I agree.

Offline Devils Son Inlaw

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2022, 05:55:49 PM »
I don't mean to shoot you down but many others have claimed this for a while.  Unfortunately there is no documentation to prove this to be true, only a few recorded songs by a great musician(s)?

Offline Hardluckchild

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2022, 12:57:18 AM »
I appreciate your honest response, Mr. Wheatstraw. Putting aside the theories of others, could you please let me know your own thoughts on the matter? Do you have an opinion one way or the other? If so, are there any examples you point to in order to support your opinion?

It might sound off topic, but I think that a classically trained musician who sits down and listens to old Caruso recordings (and those of his peers) could be of help to us old blues fans. Sounds a bit out of left field, but maybe such a person could help us out, provided he or she is willing to first dive deep into listening to the so-called standard Country Blues essentials in order to acclimate his or her ears to the genre.

Just wondering if you had an opportunity to go 50 seconds in to "Rowdy Blues" (and then listen to the remaining verses) and then quickly jump to listening to M&O and Future Blues. If you do so, I think you'll come to the same realization that I did.

Also, has anyone noticed or written about the fact that M&O and Future Blues (in all remasterings that I've heard) have more surface noise on them than Rowdy and Mississippi Bottom? To my ears, greaterr amounts of surface noise (crackling like Rice Crispies) can create the impression that a rough and coarse vocal is rougher than it actually is! In other words, if the listener believes Brown isn't Bailey because Brown's vocals just sound much tougher, it could be the surface noise on M&O and Future that create this impression. Of course, I'm purposely leaving out the obvious fact that the vocals on Mississippi Bottom could never be misconstrued as being coarse (I addressed this in my first post, showing how Rowdy starts off with the same soft vocals as Mississipi Bottom, but then morphs into coarse territory at the 50 second mark.This fact shows that "Bailey" could sing in both a sweet and rough manner, just like Blind Willie Johnson.)

The man whose vocals started off sweet and angelic on Rowdy, but then became quite coarse and rough, is the same.man whose vocals were sweet throughout nearly all of Mississippi Bottom. Also, the man whose vocals were coarse and aggressive throughout Future and M&O - which are full of surface noise - is the same man whose vocals sounded ever so slightly less coarse on Rowdy. if you put these two facts together, the only conclusion you can draw is that Brown is Bailey.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2022, 01:10:15 AM by Hardluckchild »

Offline Hardluckchild

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2022, 12:58:45 AM »
Brown=Bailey. I agree.

Would it be all right if I ask about how you came to the conclusion you did? Feel free to let me know here or through a private message. Thanks in advance.

Offline Blues Vintage

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2022, 02:30:55 PM »
Voice, guitar style and mannerisms are nearly the same, he just sings a bit softer on "Rowdy Blues".
Starts both "Future Blues" and "Rowdy Blues" with a AB formula instead of the regular AAB.
The name "Kid Bailey" sounds very much like a pseudonym.


David Evans - Blues Revue Quarterly 1993

"Many researchers, myself included, asked Son House if he had ever heard of Kid Bailey and played the two pieces for him.  The name didn't ring a bell with Son, but he insisted without wavering that it was the voice of his good friend and partner Willie Brown."

Offline Devils Son Inlaw

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2022, 08:46:05 PM »
Personally, I agree with both of you that there are similarities between the two and my point was only that there were others that have made the same claim well before your post

I remember reading that John Tefteller thought Kid Bailey could very well be Willie Brown and Son House had heard a Kid Bailey song and said the same thing.  Stephan Wirz has the same claim made under Bailey's name on his web site. These "theories" from others are similar to your theory but there is still no proof.

Does that mean the mystery is "solved"?  I'd say of course not. 

Offline Stuart

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2022, 03:10:33 PM »
I'm in agreement with Devil's Son-In-Law on this. --Nothing new here. The arguments (reason giving) are impressionistic--"sounds like." It doesn't necessarily mean the identification is wrong, but argumentation isn't evidence--or proof, for that matter. It's simply another case where we just don't know for sure, because we have no way of knowing for sure.

Kid Bailey's songs are included in the "Screamin' and Hollerin'..." set. My copy is buried at the moment, but if anyone has a copy handy you could check to see what the notes to the songs say (if anything) re: his identification.

Offline Blues Vintage

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2022, 05:12:54 PM »
From "Screamin' and Hollerin' The Blues: The Worlds of Charley Patton",

The shadowy Kid Bailey (his given name has not survived) seems to have been an itinerant who practiced in the shadows of Patton and Willie Brown, though his singing is relatively subdued in comparison with theirs. Brown has been suggested as one of these guitarists, in part because of this tune’s resemblance to his “M & O Blues” (4/4) related in turn to “Pony Blues” (1/1). David Evans feels there is a strong possibility that Bailey and Brown are one and the same.

Offline Tony Gilroy

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2022, 12:12:52 AM »

The suggestion that Bailey was Brown is on Bailey's Wikipaedia page which doesn't of course make it so. It's also mentioned in the Eagle/LeBlanc book.

Bailey recorded in 1929 and Brown in 1930 so for me that begs the question of why Brown would have needed or chosen to use a pseudonym - it wasn't to fool a record company. It doesn't seem that researchers have ever found anything on Bailey but that doesn't mean that he wasn't a real person of that or similar name. I distrust aural identifications because we're all susceptible to hearing what we want to hear.

I love this sort of speculation but there'll be no proof unless or until someone uncovers details of Bailey's life and with a common surname and presumably "Kid" not being the given name ancestry research is unlikely to get anywhere.

Offline Hardluckchild

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2022, 06:36:03 AM »
Are we sure that his voice doesn't sound more coarse on "Rowdy Blues" because of all the surface noise on "Future Blues" and "M&O Blues"? I believe all of the heavy surface noise on the latter record accounts for the seemingly less coarse vocals on "Rowdy Blues", up until the 50 second mark!

We can find records by, for example, Crying Sam Collins, that have very heavy surface noise, and also ones that have less surface noise. The ones with heavier surface noise distort the vocals and make them seem coarse and gruff, whereas the cleaner recordings allow us to get a truer picture of the singer's vocals.

The anomaly, as I mentioned in my initial post, is therefore "Mississippi Bottom Blues." if you listen to it right after you listen to the two Brown recordings, you most likely wouldn't believe it's the same man singing. But if you then listen to the 4th and final recording, "Rowdy Blues" you would recognize that the singer at the beginning (before the 50 second mark!)is the same as the man who sang "Mississippi Bottom." And if you listen past the 50 second mark, you would recognize that the singer on "Rowdy Blues" is the same man who sang on the two Brown recordings.

I , too, love guitar work, but when we are identifying vocalists, guitar playing doesn't need to figure in to the picture. Hope that doesn't sound blasphemous.
Voice, guitar style and mannerisms are nearly the same, he just sings a bit softer on "Rowdy Blues".
Starts both "Future Blues" and "Rowdy Blues" with a AB formula instead of the regular AAB.
The name "Kid Bailey" sounds very much like a pseudonym.


David Evans - Blues Revue Quarterly 1993

"Many researchers, myself included, asked Son House if he had ever heard of Kid Bailey and played the two pieces for him.  The name didn't ring a bell with Son, but he insisted without wavering that it was the voice of his good friend and partner Willie Brown."

Offline Hardluckchild

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2022, 06:42:50 AM »
Sure, we're all susceptible to hearing what we want to hear. However, if I were a betting man..

Did you try going to the 50 second mark of "Rowdy Blues"? Perhaps doing so will lead you to a definite conclusion regarding this matter!

The suggestion that Bailey was Brown is on Bailey's Wikipaedia page which doesn't of course make it so. It's also mentioned in the Eagle/LeBlanc book.

Bailey recorded in 1929 and Brown in 1930 so for me that begs the question of why Brown would have needed or chosen to use a pseudonym - it wasn't to fool a record company. It doesn't seem that researchers have ever found anything on Bailey but that doesn't mean that he wasn't a real person of that or similar name. I distrust aural identifications because we're all susceptible to hearing what we want to hear.

I love this sort of speculation but there'll be no proof unless or until someone uncovers details of Bailey's life and with a common surname and presumably "Kid" not being the given name ancestry research is unlikely to get anywhere.

Offline Tony Gilroy

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2022, 07:31:51 AM »
For me the report that Son House thought that the Bailey record sounded like Brown begs the question as to the near certainty that had Brown ever made a record as Kid Bailey he'd have told House about it at some point in their long friendship.

My bet would be that Bailey was not Brown.

Offline Stuart

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2022, 10:11:41 AM »
For every argument there's a counter argument and for every explanation there's a counter explanation. They're not all the same and some are better than others, but...

There's no reason to force a conclusion when there is no hard evidence to support it. Enjoy the music.

Offline eric

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Re: Willie Brown Mystery, Solved
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2022, 11:35:40 AM »
If memory serves, we've been litigating the Kid Bailey hypothesis for at least 40 years now. Great tunes in any case.
--
Eric

 


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