Topic: Who is this ???

[Richard]

The audio quality is slightly reduced to get it posted.

If you have the CD\LP and you know you don't stand a chance of getting it without then don't give it away 

Answers on a postcard etc etc

[Rivers]

Someone better known for playing the piano, for instance?

[blueshome]

Unfortunately, Richard, when it opens in iTunes the title and performer appear. You should have "sanitised" it.
Anyway good clue from Rivers.
I'll add - better known on the jazz side.

[Rivers]

I wish all quizes were this easy... 

Seriously though, I had no idea he could play ragtime guitar at any level, let alone really well, so thanks for that.

[Mr.OMuck]

That's pretty amazing, pianistic guitar playing. Anything else like it emerge from New Orleans at the time I'm led to wonder? It somehow does not feel idiosyncratic enough to have been a style entirely of his own devising. More the result of a method he'd learned, meaning others probably learned the same method.

[Rivers]

My first thought was the Rev. Gary actually, before I saw the mp3 metadata flash up on the screen which gave it away. He was a very good guitar player, I had absolutely no idea.

[Richard]

Wot a bugger... it didn't show on the software I used to rip it. However stick your hand up if you would have got it without the deliberate mistake!

For those that haven't seen the original file details try the sanitized one...

Amazing isn't it? I had heard he could play but came across this on an ultra complete L of C cd set.

[blueshome]

Never have got that!

[eagle rockin daddy]

wow, really nice. Where did the recording come from?

thanks for sharing this.

Mike

[Johnm]

Hi all,
He did play like a pianist in that there was more care taken with regard to voice-leading than you generally find among blues guitarists of the same era.  Especially in the second section, where he modulates to D, he sounds somewhat reminiscent of the great New Orleans Jazz guitarist Snoozer Quinn.
All best,
Johnm

[Rivers]

Courtesy the tags index, here's a discussion of Snoozer Quinn: http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=450.0

[mr mando]

That's Johnny St Cyr, recorded by Lomax in 1949.

[Richard]

No... want another shot or shall I tell you 

[mr mando]

No... want another shot or shall I tell you 

I thought you wanted ME to tell YOU.   

But seriously: In case you still think that this is Jelly Roll Morton, you're definitely wrong. I heard JRM noodle on a guitar behind his talking while he was interviewed by Lomax for the LoC in 38. Nothing coherent, though, so hard to tell how good he was. He definitely knew how to play diminished chords on the top 4 strings and how to move them around chromatically, but there are no recordings of him doing much more than that.

But I know the track you posted. It's on CD8 of JRM's Complete LoC Recordings Box Set from Rounder. Now I tell you what: "Mississippi Bottom Blues" was played by Kid Bailey and not by Charley Patton, although the song is on the Revenant Charley Patton box set, and just the same, "Guitar Blues" was played by Johnny St Cyr, as recorded by Lomax in 1949, even if it's on the JRM box set. There's not a single JRM track on CD 8 of the Rounder set, just interview snippets and musical examples of acquaintances of JRM. I bet if you rip the CDs to a hard drive, you'll get the metadata all messed up. If you still don't believe me, compare the voices. St. Cyr's is at least half an octave lower the JRM's.
Sorry if I come across as Mr. Smarty Pants, if so, it's due to my lacking knowledge of the subtleties of the English language.

[Richard]

Now I tell you what: "Mississippi Bottom Blues" was played by Kid Bailey and not by Charley Patton, although the song is on the Revenant Charley Patton box set,

I'm a little confused, how does that enter into it?

"Guitar Blues" was played by Johnny St Cyr, as recorded by Lomax in 1949, even if it's on the JRM box set. There's not a single JRM track on CD 8 of the Rounder set, just interview snippets and musical examples of acquaintances of JRM.

Do you have other recordings by JSC to compare? What makes you so positive about JRMs contributions to CD8?

[/quote] I bet if you rip the CDs to a hard drive, you'll get the metadata all messed up. [/quote] 
Meaning ?

[uncle bud]

Now I tell you what: "Mississippi Bottom Blues" was played by Kid Bailey and not by Charley Patton, although the song is on the Revenant Charley Patton box set,

I'm a little confused, how does that enter into it?

"Guitar Blues" was played by Johnny St Cyr, as recorded by Lomax in 1949, even if it's on the JRM box set. There's not a single JRM track on CD 8 of the Rounder set, just interview snippets and musical examples of acquaintances of JRM.

Do you have other recordings by JSC to compare? What makes you so positive about JRMs contributions to CD8?

I bet if you rip the CDs to a hard drive, you'll get the metadata all messed up.

 
Meaning ?

I believe what mr mando is saying is that just as there was material by artists other than Charley Patton on the Revenant Patton box set, there is material on the Jelly Roll Morton Library of Congress set that is not by Morton. With regards to metadata, meaning that if, for example, you have the Big Joe Williams JSP boxed set of five CDs and rip the CDs into iTunes or some such program, that the tags for the mp3 files may well say all songs on all five discs are by Big Joe Williams, when in fact they are not.

I don't have the JRM set (would love to!) but the information on this track from this set contained in the American Song database is as follows:

Guitar Blues (2:19), in Jelly Roll Morton: The Complete Library of Congress Recordings by Alan Lomax: Disc Eight
Catalog Number: 11661-1896-2
Duration: 2 minutes
Genre: New Orleans Jazz; Interview & Jazz Blues
Instrument: Speaker & Guitar, acoustic
Label: Rounder Records
Organization: Rounder Records
   
Original Language: English
Performer: Lomax, Alan & St. Cyr, Johnny
Recording Date: 1949
Recording Location: Coolidge Auditorium, Library of Congress, Washington, DC
Release Date: 2005
Soloist: Lomax, Alan & St. Cyr, Johnny

[Stuart]

You do not have to rip a CD to your hard drive in order to get the CD info when using iTunes. iTunes identifies and matches the tracks (remember that they are code) to the information contained in an external database and then downloads the info to your computer. Much of the information in the database is contributed by the user base, which is one of the reasons that there are so many mistakes and inconsistencies between what is actually on the CD and what the database says is on the CD. Some CDs do contain information about the cuts and this info is displayed on some CD players, but many do not contain any info regarding their contents.

You can experiment a little by disconnecting your computer from the web, putting a CD that has not previously been imported into iTunes into your optical drive, and then seeing if iTunes will be able to get the CD track names and other info. You will have to ask iTunes to do this manually if you have not selected the "automatic" option. If you're not connected to the web, iTunes will not be able to access the external database and get the information.

The next step is to connect to the web and try it. You will probably notice a difference.

This topic came up a while back on Ari's board. ("Ripping CD to mp3 files") The posts are a little out of sequence (my fault), but if you read through them, you'll catch the drift.

http://members2.boardhost.com/acoustic_blues/

It's the kind of thing that can drive a person nuts if s/he doesn't understand how the process works (and also if s/he does). n.b. that the tracks on a CD are different from the ones that are downloaded from the iTunes Store, Amazon, etc.

Zeroes and ones, my friends, zeroes and ones.

"There are ten thousand parts in the modern automobile, but it's the loose nut behind the wheel that causes most of the problems"--Anonymous

Or, "The loose nut behind the keyboard," in this case.

[mr mando]

I believe what mr mando is saying is that just as there was material by artists other than Charley Patton on the Revenant Patton box set, there is material on the Jelly Roll Morton Library of Congress set that is not by Morton. With regards to metadata, meaning that if, for example, you have the Big Joe Williams JSP boxed set of five CDs and rip the CDs into iTunes or some such program, that the tags for the mp3 files may well say all songs on all five discs are by Big Joe Williams, when in fact they are not.

That's whatt I wanted to say, thanks for being such a good translator.

Performer: Lomax, Alan & St. Cyr, Johnny
Soloist: Lomax, Alan & St. Cyr, Johnny

The track that Richard posted ends right after the music, on the CD you have about 20 to 30 seconds of talk after the guitar stops. Lomax is asking something like: "What do you call that tune?" I wouldn't have put that under the definition of being a soloist, but there you go.

[uncle bud]

mr mando, your original post seemed perfectly clear to me, I was just reiterating, and mainly adding the discographical information.

[Richard]

Not having the notes with my CD set that makes for interesting reading, sorry it wasn't JRM although everybody except MrMando who had the cd accepted that it was.

I don't have or want iTunes, but prefer the usenet for garnering music and I also find cDex rips whilst retaining the correct information.

[uncle bud]

iTunes, CDex, whatever, both are using the same CDDB database to get the music information for the ID3 tags, as do many other music players.

[Stuart]

iTunes, CDex, whatever, both are using the same CDDB database to get the music information for the ID3 tags, as do many other music players.

Hi Andrew:

It looks like iTunes uses Gracenote while Windows Media Player uses Microsoft's database (what else did you expect??), which draws its info from several different sources. This probably explains the problem encountered with Ari's CDs. --A few of FYI links:

http://www.gracenote.com/company_info/press/1999/1999042700/

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/Media-information-in-Windows-Media-Player-frequently-asked-questions

http://www.id3.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDDB


Now my headache has a headache. 

[Rivers]

Right, that's what I meant to say, definitely Johnny St. Cyr. Good old Johnny. Who? 

[uncle bud]

Stuart, people use Windows Media Player?  And what problems with Ari's CDs?

And maybe we should clarify that Gracenote = CDDB.

Rivers, before this mystery tune turned out to be Mr. St. Cyr (I think), I had in fact been thinking of starting a Johnny St. Cyr thread seeking enlightenment, having enjoyed his playing with Louis Armstrong. You obviously won't be helping. 

[Rivers]

No, but I will be learning and look forward to reading.

[Stuart]

Stuart, people use Windows Media Player?  And what problems with Ari's CDs?

And maybe we should clarify that Gracenote = CDDB.

Hi Andrew:

The problems weren't with Ari's CDs, but with the info that Windows Media Player accessed when "You Don't Understand" and "That Will Never Happen No More" were imported into WMP. It gave the info for "That Will Never Happen No More" when importing "You Don't Understand." Since both CDs have 14 tracks, this contributed to the  confusion on the part of the poster regarding the reason(s) for and the cause(s) of the problem. The simple answer was that the info in the database that WMP accessed was incorrect for "You Don't Understand." My guess is that it was entered incorrectly by someone at some stage in the process.

Thanks for the clarification re: Gracenote = CDDB--I should have pointed it out early on.

Here's the link to the first post in the thread on Ari's board:

http://members2.boardhost.com/acoustic_blues/msg/1309644245.html

[Richard]

And maybe we should clarify that Gracenote = CDDB.

So does that equation resolve to -

if Gracenote = CDDB.
then does  CDDB = connect to internet to obtain info



CDex which is free, will  rip any CD into a variety of formats. It only displays the info on that cd hence no mistakes, it will even make tea if required but unfortunately the kettle attached to the pc hasnow  blown a fuse.

[uncle bud]

And maybe we should clarify that Gracenote = CDDB.

So does that equation resolve to -

if Gracenote = CDDB.
then does  CDDB = connect to internet to obtain info

Correct.

CDex which is free, will  rip any CD into a variety of formats. It only displays the info on that cd hence no mistakes, it will even make tea if required but unfortunately the kettle attached to the pc hasnow  blown a fuse.

And other programs are free too, including iTunes. I am not shilling for Apple/iTunes or trying to convince anyone to use the software. It's become bloatware in my opinion, and I am happy to hear about alternatives. I am just saying the programs use the same online database, a database which is error prone and is most often the source of these kinds of mistakes. As the CDex features page indicates, unless this is incorrect information, it can use a local database or it uses the CDDB database, which is what the FAQ also says it uses. It can also use CD-Text if there is system support and if the CD has the data.

[dj]

It can also use CD-Text if there is system support and if the CD has the data.

We're straying farther and farther from the original topic here, but...

Garbage in, garbage out.  My experience is that, if you really care about consistency, databases that are filled with information from casual users without exception contain a high percentage of garbage.  Unfortunately, information provided by publishers is every bit as likely to have garbage.  My wife works for a major book/music retailer, and one of the things she has to deal with every day is the woeful information supplied by publishers.  You'd think that publishers would want the electronic information they supply on their product to be correct, but apparently not.

The only way to get relatively error-free data on CDs you rip is to carefully proofread the information that shows up as you rip, then carefully proofread what you just edited.

[Stuart]

The only way to get relatively error-free data on CDs you rip is to carefully proofread the information that shows up as you rip, then carefully proofread what you just edited.

Truer words were never spoken. And then submit the corrected version to the database. Hopefully it will replace the defective one--but don't bet the family jewels on it.

[banjochris]

The only way to get relatively error-free data on CDs you rip is to carefully proofread the information that shows up as you rip, then carefully proofread what you just edited.

Truer words were never spoken. And then submit the corrected version to the database. Hopefully it will replace the defective one--but don't bet the family jewels on it.

When our band's CD came out, the very first thing I did was pop one in the computer and fill out all the information, then proofread it twice and submit it to CDDB, because I wanted to make sure people had the correctly spelled listings, etc. I find typos in my iTunes all the time and it drives me nuts (and I looked for mistakes as I was importing things, too!).

[mr mando]

mr mando, your original post seemed perfectly clear to me, I was just reiterating, and mainly adding the discographical information.

Oh, thanks to let me know! I always feel a little insecure about wording whole paragraphs in foreign (to me) languages. Good to get the feedback that it worked this time.

I'm a little bemused to have started a meta-discussion about meta-data. I would rather have discussed Jelly Roll Morton's relation to the guitar.
Maybe I can bring the discussion back to topic with the following two excerpts from the LoC interviews:

Lomax: Did they used to call you sissy?

JRM: Er, well, no, they didn?t . . . they didn?t call me sissy, but they always said that, er, that, er, a piano was a girl?s instrument. So then I had taken to the guitar, er, that was due to the fact that my godmother was always interested in me. And I become to be a very efficient guitarist, until I met, er, Bud Scott, one of the famous guitarists in this country today. I was known to be the best. And when I found out that, er, he was dividing with me my popularity, I decided immediately to quit playing guitar and try the piano, which I did secretly ? that is, with the exception of my family. They?re the only ones that knew.

Considering the fact that JRM usually could live up to all his braggings concerning the piano, it's too bad that there are no representative recordings of his playing, especially as the guitar seems to have been his first instrument:

Lomax: You didn?t know the trombone or the cornet or . . . ?

JRM: Oh, yes. I, er . . . My first instrument was the guitar. Er, then later I played drums. I played, er, what you call . . . at that time they call ?em trap drums ? that was one, one man beat two drums.

Wondering which style(s) guitar players from JRM's generation in New Orleans played, I remembered the recordings of Frank Amacker. Stylistically, they are much more old fashioned and way less complex than Johnny St Cyr's playing on the track that Richard posted. Does anyone have knowledge of recordings of early 20th century guitar styles in New Orleans??