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Author Topic: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas  (Read 24541 times)

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Offline uncle bud

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #120 on: April 30, 2014, 06:01:24 PM »
It certainly answers the question of whether Susannah McCormick is pissed. And some of the quotes in the piece sound pretty scripted to me.

I don't think they would get much money for the archive, to be honest. Not that I am an expert. But while most universities would be happy to have this kind of thing, they would be looking for it more as a donation, not a major purchase. Is the Smithsonian in the habit of paying big money for this kind of archival material?

I'd bet the McCormicks would probably get more money for the Robert Johnson photo stashed in Mexico, that may or may not be the Robert Johnson we thought we knew, and the related work, than they would for the other documents that make up the Monster. Though I guess the LaVere business would block that?

Anyway, if this is part of an effort to drive up the price, best of luck and I hope it nets them some dough for it. If it's the prelude to a lawsuit, well, it's four pages of LV Thomas's words, that later seem to have been given to Sullivan by someone else as well, so good luck going up against the Times legal team.

Offline Suzy T

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #121 on: April 30, 2014, 06:15:27 PM »
Mack McCormick did not "hijack pieces of history".  Get real - it's not like the stuff he worked on was just laying around for the taking.  He did painstaking detective work following up leads, doing scholarly research, collecting artifacts, interviewing all kinds of people, all without institutional support.  At least, if there was institutional support, I've never heard about it.  Also, don't forget that there was also a lot of work that did NOT result in fabulous revelations.  The work Mack did was his own work and it is not right to steal his work.  I'm hoping that the Alan Govenar book whenever it sees the light of day will contain many more wonderful surprises and those will be revealed to us with Mack's blessing.

Offline Mr.OMuck

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #122 on: April 30, 2014, 06:15:31 PM »
Hey Gilgamesh, don't you know when a lawyer is putting words in a clients mouth?
My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, soft music.
Vladimir Nabokov (1899 - 1977)

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Offline Slack

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #123 on: April 30, 2014, 06:20:06 PM »
I agree.  We know how Susannah feels.  Whether she's trying to gin up a little interest, who knows, but who could blame her. 

Quote
well, it's four pages of LV Thomas's words, that later seem to have been given to Sullivan by someone else as well, so good luck going up against the Times legal team.

That would indeed give one pause.

I suppose the archive could be turned into an asset somehow, but agree, as a lump sum deal it's probably not worth that much.  They'd need to do what Tefteller is doing with Paramount posters - turn it into some kind of long term business strategy.  I don't see that happening. 

Offline bnemerov

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #124 on: April 30, 2014, 07:28:08 PM »
Hi all,
The scope of this discussion is breathtaking in its variety of views; a few of them sensible.

As one who has worked in an archive, collaborated with other institutional archives (Smithsonian, LoC, Indiana, Fisk and others) and done original fieldwork (John Work III, Sister O.M. Terrell, etc.), I have to say that Suzy T has it right. Mack's work is Mack's. The fact that he hasn't published much of it is probably not by his choice....health issues; the RJ/LaVere legal juggernaut and who knows what else has intruded on Mack's productivity.

Archives don't generally have deep pockets. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, The Country Music Hall of Fame & Museum, The Center for Popular Music, the Blues archive at Ole Miss, UNC's Southern folk archive, Jazz Archives at Rutgers and Tulane and most others rely on donations to build their collections. The only sensible thing said in this thread on that subject (by ?) is the notion of getting Paul Allen interested enough to give up his coffee money for a month to purchase the Monster for Seattle's Experience Music Project.

If it's for sale, which isn't known as yet.

best,
bruce

Offline Mr.OMuck

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #125 on: April 30, 2014, 08:01:31 PM »
If it were in book form, with Mack's name on the cover as the author it would be Mack's and he would have fulfilled his obligation to the people he collected memories and information from. As filing cabinets full of rare historical information which is NEVER going to be made into a book, a film or anything else by this man, there is zero point in him retaining it and letting it sit and rot or burn. That is a treacherous thing to allow to happen. It places Mack's rights as collector above those of all the people he collected from. Its not as though this were an unpublished novel that he'd written. Nothing is preventing this man from publishing except a crippling mental infirmity which it appears will operate in the same manner forever. Nothing is preventing him from having someone compile an inventory and auctioning it off at Southeby's, Christies or E-Bay.
He can even retain ownership, but the first consideration would be to remove it to a fireproof facility for safe keeping, otherwise it could be gone in an instant. How would that serve anybody?

My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, soft music.
Vladimir Nabokov (1899 - 1977)

http://www.youtube.com/user/MuckOVision

Offline Stuart

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #126 on: April 30, 2014, 08:21:03 PM »
...I have to say that Suzy T has it right. Mack's work is Mack's...

I would venture to guess that everything Mack collected through his fieldwork and research was also readily available to other people--but only if they chose to do the fieldwork and research. As far as I know, no one else did the work.

Offline wreid75

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2014, 05:13:40 AM »
"I have to say that Suzy T has it right. Mack's work is Mack's."

So does that mean that he has the right to never let the world know of these people?  Am I to believe that even given the many decades he has had to publish his work and profit if possible that there is no point in time where the world at large should know?  Let me say it this way.  We know that there are missing gospels.  Multiple early Popes quote from the Gospel of Bartholomew which is considered lost.  Imagine that before it was lost to the ages a scribe made a copy of it and the other "heretical" gospels, then kept it in a very insecure location (hoarder houses are know to be very high risk for fires.)  Imagine this scribe let the world know for decades that he had this special information but flatly refused to make it available to biblical scholars and believers alike.  This scribe when elderly finally let one person then another come in to work with his collection before kicking them to the curb.  Once gone it becomes apparent that a copy of some of the heretical or missing gospels are still in their possession.  They have this one opportunity to share with the world those priceless historic documents before they are possibly lost for ever, but the information is incomplete.  Through their own efforts they piece together the rest of the story, a puzzle that had they waited would have been impossible since old people have a peculiar habit of dying.  You not only tell where the information came from but how they came to you possession and how you put the rest of the puzzle together.  Letting the world finally know of these documents is the crime crediting the crime, is that what I am to believe? 

Now I know this isn't the bible but what the same principals apply.

Offline wreid75

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2014, 05:39:54 AM »
I would be inclined to consider Mack a victim had someone broke into his house at gun point and forcibly removed his entire collection and published everything without ever crediting him as the source.  These musicians made great music, lived in obscurity, were usually poor from cradle to grave, often repeatedly exploited by far more affluent white men - some even in their elderly years; and forgotten by the people they wrote and performed the music for.   Luckily a very small group of amazing young men dedicated a large part of their lives and not only dig up the music and their story but in some cases found the musicians themselves.  Most researchers couldn't find enough people to share their information with.  Amazing (and some not so amazing) books have been written.  Researchers like Wardlow and others freely promoted what they knew, donated to libraries field notes and recordings, and published magazines and books (usually spending more time and money than they ever recouped). 

Then there is this one amazing and tenacious researcher who amassed one of the greatest collection of biographical information on these musicians only to refuse them the legacy they deserve.  Sitting on the information and not allowing their stories to be told to the world is not different than the exploitation that they endured during their life.  It is no different than the exploitation of bands recording their songs after they die and crediting themselves as authors.  Instead of exploitation what he is doing is oppression.  Mack said in the article that he should have come ten years ago, meaning that people who could have pieced the story together had died.  Does Macks ownership give  him the moral, legal, and/or ethical right to determine when and if someone who recorded 80 years ago finally get his story told?  Does his ownership allow him the moral, legal, and/or ethical right keep it till he dies ensuring that the other people who can fill in the dots are no longer around again robbing artists of securing his or her place in history?

It shouldn't matter "if to the world" is the few thousand people who love this music or the 7 billion on earth.  Aficionados and researchers small size shouldn't matter either.  It shouldn't matter that he did the ground work if all he is going to do is ensure that their complete story never sees the light of day.  Suppression of this information is a form of oppression since he gets to dictate if and when a poor black musician who died a long time ago gets his due. 

Offline TonyGilroy

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2014, 06:02:27 AM »

I'm with you on this.

The people who spoke to Mack surely wanted their stories to be told. I don't suppose Mack told them that it was to be solely for his use.

And all the angst on his behalf overlooks the fact that he invited the researchers into his home. On one level at least he must want this stuff to come out or why start the process of engaging with people who clearly wanted to publish.

Offline Gilgamesh

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #130 on: May 01, 2014, 06:03:28 AM »
I'd bet the McCormicks would probably get more money for the Robert Johnson photo stashed in Mexico, that may or may not be the Robert Johnson we thought we knew, and the related work, than they would for the other documents that make up the Monster. Though I guess the LaVere business would block that?

Has anyone asked why the most important document McCormick owns is in Mexico?
Considering the fierce possessiveness he has over the Monster, it makes no sense at all that he would leave this photo in the keeping of someone else in a foreign country.


Offline wreid75

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2014, 06:13:28 AM »
Quote
Has anyone asked why the most important document McCormick owns is in Mexico?

If I had to guess, and this is only a guess it is because he can't have it taken from him there, even if he was to lose a civil case to LaVere they couldn't find it and take it in Mexico.


Offline Gilgamesh

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2014, 06:14:47 AM »
I would be inclined to consider Mack a victim had someone broke into his house at gun point and forcibly removed his entire collection and published everything without ever crediting him as the source. 

Fortunately, the legal system still recognizes that assault and battery is not the only form of theft.

Offline wreid75

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2014, 06:39:32 AM »
Quote
Fortunately, the legal system still recognizes that assault and battery is not the only form of theft.

Scheduling weeks ahead, having multiple phone conversations, and welcoming researchers into his home twice with open arms giving them full access to his 'monster' and then then they publish information that they had when the arrangement ended seems like a very difficult theft case to me.  Its not like they broke into his car and stole his stereo.  It is more like having someone install a new car stereo and when Mack failed to ask for his old stereo back he called it theft.  And even that scenario is a stretch hence why the Times legal and editorial staff felt safe in its publication.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 06:40:38 AM by wreid75 »

Offline Gilgamesh

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Re: Elvie (L.V.) Thomas
« Reply #134 on: May 01, 2014, 04:19:31 PM »
I guess we'll soon be hearing an argument that Sullivan is the victim here. Perhaps he can sue McCormick for his cruelty in not giving him the Geeshie Wiley file?

Can some you guys follow through on your philosophy and "Sullivanize" Paul Swinton's research? After all, I think we can all agree that Blind Lemon is a way more important artist than L.V. Thomas. He has no right to withold this material any longer. Ask him politely to share it, and if he refuses, take it from him.

 


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