Topic: I Ain't Givin' Nobody None by Mae Glover/John Byrd

[GhostRider]

Howdy:

I just discovered this one (on the Country Blues-The Essentials CD).

A 12-string accompanyment. I've tried to figure it out, but I'd like to get some confirmation on some of the positions before I go any further. (I haven't yet made corporal In JohnM's ear army).

I think that this song is in Standard Tuning, Key of  G, capo III. I think that the guitarist does a neat grab of the Bb note on the high E string during the I position (G) parts.

I'm not sure of how he voices the V chord (D). He seems to walk into it, but play it in first position.

Any insite any of you could give would be appreciated.

.mp3 attached.

Thanks,
Alex

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Pan]

Hi Pyrochlore, or should I call you Alex?

I think you're right about the key, position,  and capo on the 3rd fret. Nothing wrong with your ears!
 
Your basic I chord Bb would be like playing a G chord on open position. You can clearly hear the root note being switched to the 7th (Ab) on 1st string prior to going to the IV chord. Other melody notes used against this chord are on the 2nd string; the open string is the third of the chord (D); 1st finger on the 4th fret gives you the sus4 (Eb); and putting your little finger on the 6th fret you get the 5th (F). Just before the V chord there's a littel chromatic run which adds the E note on the 5th fret: (from open D to Eb to E to F, which is the root of the V chord).
Also on the 3rd string you have the obvious root Bb on the open string, and also the blue note the, b3rd (Db) on the 6th fret, to get a more bluesy feeling.

The IV chord, Eb is like playing an open C chord, with your little finger on the 1st string  6th fret to maintain the high Bb note.

The following IVm chord is like playing an open Cm: only top 4 strings used; 4th string, 1st finger 4th fret; 3rd strg open; 2nd stg 2nd finger on the 4th fret; and 1st stg 4th finger on the 6th fret. Voicing from bottom to top Gb (b3rd) Bb (5th) Eb (root) Bb (5th) giving you the Eb m/Gb chord.

The V chord is reached with a little chromatic run in the 2nd stg as I explained discussing the I chord. The melody switches between the root (F) played on the 2nd string, and the 3rd (A) on the 1st stg; which means that the chord is played like a regular D triad on the open position. The bass note is the 5th (open 5th string) however, giving you the F/C chord.

After the V chord you have a nice little run in 3rds played on the 2nd and 3rd strgs: 1st finger 6th fret 2nd stg and 2nd finger 7th fret 3rd stg. This implies th Bb chord. Move down 1 fret to imply the Bbdim chord. Once again move down one fret to imply the Cm or F7 chord. Play the open 2nd and 3rd stgs. to imply the Bb chord again. This run is repeated breaking the rhythm into 8-notes.

Basically you have a 12 bar blues as follows:


[|  Bb  |  Bb  |  Bb  |  Bb7 |

|  Eb  |  Ebm/Gb  |  Bb  |  Bb  |

| F/C  | run in 3rds | (repeated) |  Bb  |]

Did you put he whole song from the start to the mp3? It starts so suddenly from beat one that it's surprising. The reason I'm asking this, is because the 1st chorus is different from the others. It starts with just the guitar on Bb for 4 bars (at one point the bass switches to C implying the F or Cm chord), and the vocals start at the IV chord. The IV - IVm passage is then repeated to give the lyrics the full 12 bars. I think maybe the guitarist and vocalist were not sure to where the chorus begins, and the accompanying guitarist quickly adjust to give the vocalist the full 12 bars... interestig.
There seems to be a lot of numbers to figure out in this post! I hope it makes some sense to you and helps a little. If not ask for details.

Pan

[GhostRider]

Hey Pan:

Call me Pyrochlore or call me Alex. Just don't call me late for dinner (v. old joke ).

Thanks ever so much for your analysis. I really appreciate it.

Just a couple of points. After the guitarist plays the IV chord C (Eb), you have him going to an IVm chord Cm(Ebm). I hear him going to a bVI chord, Eb(F#), which is not uncommon in G blues (Rollin' From Side to Side, Don't Sell it, Don't Give It Away as examples)., fingered 5th string, 1 fret, 4th string, 1 fret, 3rd string 3 fret, 2nd string 2 fret, 1 st string 3 fret.(all relative to capo) What do you think?

As well I hear that in the I chord portions of the tune he reaches up to grab the Bb(C#) note on the first string. It's pretty faint on the recording and may be inaudible on the low fi .mp3 copy I provided. This could all be an artifact of the 12 string though.

BTW, the recording starts as abruptly as the.mp3.

Does anyone know who the guitarist (and male voice) was?

Thanks again,
Alex

[dj]

The guitarist was John Byrd, who's unusual in that he's a Mississippian playing a 12 string guitar.  His Billy Goat Blues and Old Timbrook are on the Juke.  (Also on the Juke are a couple of Gospel parodies he did at the same session in which I Ain't Givin' Nobody None was recorded - That White Mule of Sin and The Heavenly Airplane - and a half-dozen accompaniments to Washboard Walter).

Thanks, Alex, for pointing out a nice performance that I've never taken notice of before.

[waxwing]

Late for Dinner,

That faint high note you are hearing could possibly be the octave course on the third pair and I believe, if I'm not confused by the two different systems you guys are using, it? would be situated at the 3rd fret above the capo. Far more reachable, and commonly used in G blues. If struck by the thumb, the octave course could dominate.

[Edit] Actually, reading back thru Pan's post, he does mention this note:

Also on the 3rd string you have the obvious root Bb on the open string, and also the blue note the, b3rd (Db) on the 6th fret, to get a more bluesy feeling.

(Db = C#.-G-)

Yeah, thanks for pointing out another 12 string player. I need a little more 12 string repertoire, too, altho' I take it he tunes to standard at E and sometimes capos higher, eh? Would be tough on the Sov at B or C but I'm still gonna give a serious listen. Thanks for the complete disco, dj.

All for now.
John C.

[Pan]

Hi Alex

The capo makes us talk in two different keys in the same time, which is kind of dizzying, so I'm talkink plain old G here -no capos.

About the IVm or bVI chord. Play the second stg of the bVI chord you are suggesting against the recording. Do you hear the 7th of the chord being played at the record? I don't. Now whether the chord should be called bVI or IVm is a bit of an academic matter, because they are relative major and minor chords, and are essentially the same chord (Eb6 = Cm7). I use both depending where the chord comes from and where it's moving. I do however think that the voicing I gave you is not the best. Try playing an plain old barr? Cm7 instead. I'm hearing on the C to Cm passage melody notes as follows
E open 1st - G 3rd fret - E open 1st - G - 3rd fret /- Eb 2nd stg 4th fret - G 3rd fret 1st stg. etc.
C chord.....                                                              /   Cm7
I also think that at times  the guitar player switches back to C7th by raising the Eb of the barr?d chord to an E, just before changing back to the G chord.

I'm sorry, but I dont.t hear the b3rd Bb played on the 1st stg. Could it be that you are hearing the octave doubling of the 3rd stg. louder than the lower octave, as john C suggests.

On the G chord behind the vocals you can hear quite a constant melody with the b3 on the 3rd stg:


B open 2nd stg - Bb 3rd fret 3rd stg - B open 2nd - C 1st fret 2nd stg / etc...

Pan

[uncle bud]

Thanks for pointing out a great tune, Alex. John Byrd is on odd one. Billy Goat Blues has some strange lyrics ("Lord it was early in the morning about the break of day / With my head on a pillow where my goat, Lord, used to lay") and fun playing. This one has great playing and singing.

I'm hearing the IV/IVmin chord as Pan describes it, though don't have guitar in hand right now.

[GhostRider]

Gentlemen:

After fooling around with this tune again last night, I think Barbeque John's idea of the G octave course Bb is perfect. Since I don't own a 12 string, I put it in by just fretting the G chord with a thumb on the 6th string 3 fret and grab the Bb on the first string.

In the four bar intro and elsewhere JB does a quick walk up on the second string (open to 3rd fret) while playing the I (G) chord (as Pan noted) that I think is easier to play fretting the G chord with just the thumb.

OK, Ok, Cm (IVm) instead of Eb⁷ (bVI⁷)

Anyway this is a really fun one to play, moves along at a right spritely pace.

Alex

[mr mando]

I'm hearing on the C to Cm passage melody notes as follows
E open 1st - G 3rd fret - E open 1st - G - 3rd fret /- Eb 2nd stg 4th fret - G 3rd fret 1st stg. etc.
C chord.....? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? /? ?Cm7

I think Pan has the melody notes right, but he doesn't seem to take the octave strings into account. The high G notes one can hear are not first string but definitely open 3rd octave and 4th string at 5th fret octave strings sounding. The chord shape for the Cm/Eb is x-6-5-0-4-x with a thumb brush for the 2nd (and sometimes 4th) beat on strings 5 and 4, delivering a unison high and middle G note.

[Pan]

Hi everybody

I think Mr Mando is right in many accounts. I only have six strings (at it's best!). This thread has been a healthy lesson for me, how difficult it can actually be to figure out a quite simple sounding 12-string guitar accompaniment. Those double octaves can be quite devious.

I think I'm mixed up with the melody notes on the 1st and 3rd strings (also on the 2nd and 4th).

I also think that the minor triad is correct for the IVm chord, rather than the IVm7 barr? chord that I suggested. The latter is propably hard to play on the 12-string, and re-listening I don't hear the b7th of the chord being played.

I also think that the chord should contain the open 3rd string.

After re-listening I realize, that the strange little embellishment from C minor back to C major on the last beat isn't happening on the 2nd string, but rather on the 4th, because I'm now hearing it happen also on the lower octave. I would like to ask any of you 12-string playing ladies or gentlemen to do me a favor; could you please try this (with the capo on the 3rd fret) compared to what's on the mp3, and tell me what you think?

       !      !      !     !

--!--3----3----3----3--!--
--!--1----1----1----1--!--
--!--0----0----0----0--!--
--!--1----1----1----2--!--
--!----------------------!--
--!----------------------!--

   Cm/Eb           C/E  (to G)

Pardon my clumsy tab, I'm really not used to this sort of thing.

Yours

Pan

P.S. As Alex has pointed out Cm/Eb could also be called out Eb6.