Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Any other takers on the Arthur Weston/Robert Wilkins puzzlers?  Come one, come all--answer both or whichever one you want.
All best,
Johnm

[Prof Scratchy]

Yes, vestapol for the second one. But I was totally foxed by the first one. Kudos to blueshome and lyndvs !

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Well, it seems as though everyone who wanted to post on the Arthur Weston/Robert Wilkins puzzlers has done so by now, so I'll post the answers.  I'll go out of order:
   * Robert Wilkins' "Holy Ghost Train" was played out of Vestapol, just as Harriet had it in the first post and all of the other posters agreed.  Well done!  Roi's observation that Rev. Wilkins' guitar part is essentially playing slide without a slide is spot on, too.  There are a surprising number of tunes that could aptly be described that way--I've always put John Hurt's "Payday" in that category, and Vestapol seems to lend itself to that approach better than does Spanish tuning, though Libba Cotten's version of "Spanish Flangdang" falls squarely in that category, too.
   * Arthur Weston's "Stack of Dollar" was a subtle one, I think.  Lyndvs correctly observed that the passage from :08--:12 eliminates E position in standard tuning as a possible playing position for the song, because you can hear Arthur Weston tuning his fourth string to a I note, an octave above his sixth string.  Once E position in standard position has been eliminated from the running as a possible playing position, what you're left with as possible playing positions are those tunings in which the I note is located on the sixth, fourth and first strings, and which allow for a hammer to the major third note at the first fret of the third string, which Weston employs throughout his rendition.  (The fact that he has to hammer to get the major third note eliminates Vestapol as a possibility, because in Vestapol the third string is already tuned to the major third.)

This sort of progressive process of elimination, then, leaves two possibilities for tuning/playing position:  cross-note and EAEGBE.  The distinction between the two tunings is next to impossible to pick out in Weston's rendition because he avoids the fifth string in his guitar part, and the fifth string is where the difference between cross-note and EAEGBE tuning resides.  I listened to this song a lot, and as far as I could hear, the only time he strikes the fifth string at all is when he strums a I chord at the conclusion of his rendition, at 2:01 just as it creeps into 2:02.  When he makes that strum, I can hear a low IV note in the chord, which would be the open fifth string, were he in EAEGBE tuning, with him fretting the chord like so:
0-0-0-1-0-0.  This happens to be precisely the same fingering you would use to play a I major chord in cross-note.  Weston didn't compensate for his EAEGBE tuning by fretting the second fret of his fifth string for the final I chord, thus the IV note on the open fifth string is a non-chordal tone.

In a way, I'm straining at gnats here.  Arthur Weston does not hit the fifth string even once in the course of the body of his rendition, and for a one-chord song like his rendition of "Stack of Dollar", cross-note actually makes more sense than does the EAEGBE tuning.  Everything that is fretted in the guitar part, and it all lies on the first three strings, sits in exactly the same place in cross-note as it does in EAEGBE tuning.  So I guess the final point would be, if you wanted to figure out this song, either cross-note or EAEGBE would work and would be fretted the same for the body of the song.  In a way, what is more compelling to me is the question of what the heck Arthur Weston was doing in his right hand!  Incidentally, his CD is called "Pea Vine Whistle" and is on Testament.  I would give it a very high recommendation, and I reviewed it in the "Blues in St. Louis" thread in the Main Forum.

Thanks to all who participated in the puzzler, congratulations to Lyndvs for picking up on a very subtle distinction and I will look for some more songs to post as puzzlers soon.  Onward and upward!

All best,
Johnm

[frankie]

the only time he strikes the fifth string at all is when he strums a I chord at the conclusion of his rendition, at 2:01 just as it creeps into 2:02.  When he makes that strum, I can hear a low IV note in the chord, which would be the open fifth string, were he in EAEGBE tuning, with him fretting the chord like so:
0-0-0-1-0-0.  This happens to be precisely the same fingering you would use to play a I major chord in cross-note.  Weston didn't compensate for his EAEGBE tuning by fretting the second fret of his fifth string for the final I chord, thus the IV note on the open fifth string is a non-chordal tone.

That is REALLY easy to miss - way to go, John!

and thanks for the reminder about Arthur Weston...  amazing..  and a sometime playing pal of Big Joe - that's exciting stuff!

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I have a new puzzler for you.  It's been a while since we had a single puzzler, and I thought of someone who might be a good candidate:  Peetie Wheatstraw with his "Sleepless Night Blues".  Wheatstraw was very popular in his day and died young in a car wreck.  Vocally, especially, he was hugely influential, with a mannerism that most of the blues singers of his day worked out their own versions of.  He's relatively forgotten nowadays, probably because of a much more guitar-centric listening audience than he had when he was recording, but to be fair, his recorded repertoire can be quite repetitious at times, with a host of songs sharing the same accompaniment and melody, with only the lyrics differing.  In any event, "Sleepless Nights" is a very strong performance by Peetie Wheatstraw, and here it is:



The questions on "Sleepless Nights Blues" are"
   * What playing position/tuning did Peetie Wheatstraw use to play "Sleepless Nights Blues?"
   * Where did he fret the single string passage with which he opens the song, from :00--:07?
   * What is the chord he continually rocks to from his I chord, as at :14, and where did he fret it?

Please use only your ears and your musical instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before Friday morning, April 10, so that plenty of people get an opportunity to listen to the track and come up with their own answers.  Thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm

[Gumbo]

How easy it is to forget the pleasure of listening to just one side of a 78 at a time!

here's the lyrics minus one phrase in the third verse

Now let me tell you I'd like to see my baby now
I said let me tell you I'd like to see my baby now
I bet i'd want to see her - hoo-mm lord you don't know how

Well I know my little woman she can't sleep at night
Hoo-hoo know my sweet woman, she can't sleep at night
Well now she got it in her mind and her man gonna treat her right

Ba-ba-baby you may look for me most any day
Baby-babay you may look for me most any day
Well bay-darling mama hoo-hoo I ain't gonna ?? it away

INST Verse

Now-how would you feel, baby, now if i come home today
Well now how would you feel, baby if i come home today
You wouldn't have no time little mama but pass the time away

Hoo-hoo look for me tomorrow I'll be home I'm  sure
Look for me tomorrow Baby, now I will be home I'm  sure
I want you to hug and kiss me baby, now when I come walkin' in your door

[Johnm]

Thanks for the transcription, Gumbo.  I'm hearing a couple of things differently.

   2.3 Well, now SHE'S got it in her mind THAT her man AIN'T GON' treat her right

In 3.3, the missing portion is, I think,
   3.3 . . . , I ain't gonna STAY away

Peetie Wheatstraw sticks that intervallic "r" between "stay" and "away", so it sounds almost like "stayr away".

All best,
Johnm

[Gumbo]

I agree with everything except the AIN'T in 2.3 there, Johnm. Much as it makes sense, I find it hard to imagine anything between the man and the Gon'. Was Peetie inclined to play with our expectations? I admit I'm quite taken with the idea of the woman in question lying awake because she's gon' get treated right! Call me romantic if you like!

I realised it's not just listening to one side at a time that helps us to appreciate this track. The copy used for the document CD actually jumps a few times so it's especially nice to hear this upload. 

[eric]

Batting about .100 so far but here goes:

* What playing position/tuning did Peetie Wheatstraw use to play "Sleepless Nights Blues?"

E position Capo 2

* Where did he fret the single string passage with which he opens the song, from :00--:07?

4th string second fret to ninth fret

* What is the chord he continually rocks to from his I chord, as at :14, and where did he fret it?

You got me there.  The chords he's rocking from sounds like a first positions E shape at capo 2; the one he's rocking to maybe some form of first position B7? 

[Gumbo]

OK even though I can't quite figure out the last question (which often means I'm trying to fit the playing into the wrong tuning) I'm going to hazard G position in Standard but tuned low to sound in F#.
The opening run sounds, therefore, like
4th (D) string
s5-12
12 9
8 5 3 0 (5th string) 2 (6th string) 3

[Lyndvs]

"E" POSITION ?.
SINGLE STRING PASSAGE 0-7 SECS.:4TH STRING SLIDE FROM FRET 5 TO FRET 9.THEN 4TH STRING FIFTH FRET SLIGHT BEND THEN FOURTH STRING SECOND FRET THEN FOURTH STRING OPEN.THEN SECOND STRING  2ND FRET THEN SECOND STRING OPEN .FINALLY SIXTH STRING 3RD FRET SLIGHT BEND THEN SIXTH STRING OPEN ?.
THE ROCKING CHORD-A SORT OF B 7(?) BUT FRETTED AT JUST SECOND FRET 5TH STRING AND SECOND FRET THIRD STRING ?.
Forgive me-I realise I have typed this all in capitals-I`m not shouting just had caps lock on!!.Please I hope you all don`t mind if I just leave as is rather than re type.
A great song great guitar by Peetie reminds me a little of JDShort etc..

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Any other takers on the Peetie Wheatstraw "Sleepless Nights" puzzler?  Come one, come all!
All best,
Johnm

[EddieD]

I just grabbed a guitar and quickly tried this. The pitch is F#, Eposition with a capo on second is how Im doing it. Well actually im not using a capo just playing F#/F#7 barred and rocking between that and a B barre on the second and forth frets. Or with the capo on the second fret E and A. I slid up on the 4 string for that single string line. Im not sure if he was actually playing it like that or in another tuning. But that's what I got so far with a quick listen.

[blueshome]

Cross-note.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Thanks to all of you who responded.  I think this one has been up long enough and I'll post the answers.  Here they are:
   * Playing position was E position in standard tuning.  Cross-note is pretty much eliminated as a possibility by the single-note run Peetie Wheatstraw played over the V chord in his opening solo, starting at around :17.  He hammers from a IV note to a V note, repeats the V note, goes up to the bVII note and from there back to the IV note.  In E standard this series of notes is relatively easily found, since the IV note and the bVII notes are the open fifth and fourth strings, respectively, so you'd hammer from the open fifth string to the second fret of the fifth string, hit that second fret again, hit the open fourth string and go back to the open fourth string.  The same passage in cross-note is really problematic, because in cross-note you've lost the IV and V notes from open strings in the bass, since you are R-5-R ascending from from the sixth string.  In a general sort of way, E standard is much more advantageously set up for playing pentatonic blues runs descending from the root on the fourth string to the root on the open sixth string.
   * The single-string run from :00--:07 is just as Eric and Eddie had it started and Lyndvs had it from beginning to end, spot on--well done!  I found the run really ear-catching because the slide from the second fret of the fifth string to the seventh fret of the fifth string is a common move in the style, sliding from the V note up to the I note.  This is the first time I can recall hearing someone playing in E position in standard tuning slide from the I note at the second fret of the fourth string up to the V note at the ninth fret of the fourth string.  Peetie Wheatstraw negotiates the whole thing admirably, and it's especially cool because at the tail end of the introductory solo he does the more commonly encountered slide from the second fret of the fifth string to the seventh fret and makes his way down from there, sort of answering his opening idea.
   * The position that Peetie Wheatstraw rocks to from his I chord at :14 and throughout the remainder of the song in the third bar of each four-bar phrase is  2-2-2 on the top three strings.  I reckon he may have just taken his index finger up from the first fret, where it was in his E chord, slid up one fret and flattened out, doing a partial barre at the second fret and brushing those top three strings.  That position could be analyzed a number of ways:  you could call it the top of a B9 chord, though it doesn't really sound like a ninth chord to me without the third of the chord, which would live at the first fret of the fourth string, and which Peetie is certainly not playing.  You could call it an A6 chord, which is more like what it sounds like to me--as A6, the chord would voice at as R-3-6, going from the third to the first string.  Or you could call it a IIminor chord, F#minor, in which case it would voice out bIII-5-R, going from the third to the first string.  To my way of hearing it sounds more like the IV6 chord or the IIminor chord, but it doesn't really matter what you call it as long as you get that sound, which is pretty distinctive.

One point which was discussed a while ago in the thread which may be worth mentioning again is that in figuring out the position/tuning in which songs are played, it is wise not place too much store on the pitch at which a rendition sounds, since it very often does not provide useful information for determining the playing position/tuning.  Between the use of capos and/or tuning significantly high or low to match up a preferred playing position to the key the player is most comfortable singing in, the key in which a rendition ends up sounding is finally almost a happenstance.  The way I've come to look at the whole issue is that the key a rendition sounds in is the key the player wanted to sing the song in, and the playing position/tuning is what the musician wanted to use to play the song.  When you factor in the realization that tuning high or low or using a capo has no bearing on the "sound identity" of a playing position/tuning, you become all the more aware of the extent to which the key in which a rendition sounds is close to immaterial in making a determination of the playing position/tuning the player used.

Thanks to all of you who participated, and I'll try to find another puzzler soon.

All best,
Johnm