Topic: Things that just amaze me

[frailer24]

Listening to some of these recordings, I end up being wowed by one thing mainly. How some of these players could tune so high above standard and not kill either guitar or strings!
Charlie Patton is a classic pre-war example, but also guys like John Lee Zeigler (Vestapol at G!),as well as Bukka White who routinely kept around F-F# sans capo.
I'm still just plumb mystified, as I'd either be busting strings, or my guitar would fold up like a Chinese motorcycle.
Any insight, folks?

[Johnm]

Hi Larry,
I'm fairly certain Charlie Patton did capo, as did John Lee Ziegler. There is no way Charlie Patton was not capoed for "Mississippi Boweavil Blues", at the very least, and I think he capoed for a bunch more. I think the notion that the players of the past did not use capos is dead wrong. Frank Stokes capoed for all his duets with Dan Sane, with the possible exception of those tunes where they were both playing out of C position. Clifford Gibson always capoed, as did Robert Petway, and Shell Smith, who backed the fiddler W. T. Narmour in Mississippi, as well as Arthur Crudup and Henry Thomas. The list goes on and on.
All best,
Johnm

[banjochris]

I agree with John about the capoing, but I do think for Spanish and Vestapol a lot of those early players tuned up instead of down. Patton I think would tune up to Spanish at A and then capo; I would bet Robert Johnson did the same. Open E is one thing but I have seldom been able to get to open A without busting a string, usually third or second. Maybe the strings were made differently then.

And later on too Mance Lipscomb and Fred McDowell tuned pretty high - I think that one video of Fred from German TV he's around F with no capo. I don't know if Mance used a capo when recording, I've never seen a photo or video of him with one, but there are a number of tunes where he's a step high.
Chris

[waxwing]

One thing that is often pointed out is that only medium or heavy guitar sets were available and that therefore, tuning up would have put tremendous stress on a simple ladder braced guitar. However it should be noted that piano strings have been available for centuries and go down to a .006" gauge. By substituting in something like a .008 and moving all the strings of a .013 set over one space, a very light set can be obtained, accommodating much higher tuning. Happily this also provides a plain 3rd string at no extra cost.

This was recommended to me when I first got a 1930s Sterling guitjo and took it into a luthier very famiiar with banjos. He said the light set was too tight at standard tuning and was damping the head. After putting on the .009 he recommended and moving everything over the guitjo sounded much better.

I also think Patton probably tuned up to standard at F. Because he is known to have played on 12 fret neck Stellas it is very awkward to play the long A form E chord fretting the top string beyond the neck join, which he would have done extensively. It can be done, but, why?

Wax

[Stuart]

To Wax's point, I've attached a page from the 1936 L.S. Starrett catalog. On it are specs for two gages for measuring music wire.

BTW, "Washburn & Moen" doesn't refer to guitars and plumbing fixtures, but to one of the largest manufacturers of wire in the U.S. in the 19th and early 20th century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washburn_and_Moen_North_Works_District

[rein]

I have also often wondered about string gauges on early steel string guitars. I actually dont believe that what we now call mediums were the default option at that time (1920s). I have seen advertisements and catalogues ftom the 1910s up to the 1920s were no gauges are mentioned, but where there is a mention of either unwound or wound 3rd strings, and strings advertised for open A, which makes me think steel strings were comparitively light gauge at the time. Maybe the heavier gauges came later, in the 1930s when guitars had to compete to be heard. I really would like to know more about this subject though !

[Johnm]

I'm also very dubious that what we call medium gauge strings were the default metal strings used on pre-'20s and '20s guitars. All of the old Washburns, Ditsons, and other guitars I've seen or played of that vintage are so lightly built and braced that they would never have survived into the modern era had they been strung with modern tension and diameter medium gauge metal strings.
All best,
Johnm

[Stuart]

The records and spec sheets of the string manufacturers, the guitar makers (I assume they ordered strings to put on their instruments before they left the shop) and the trade publications, if they still exist, would most probably contain the info we're looking for. The music wire gages in the Starrett catalog are something an OEM would use. The sizes the gages measure suggest that finer gage music wire--that used for strings--was manufactured. What it was used for specifically is not stated, however. This is a long winded way of saying I agree with rein and John.

[harriet]

It's 10 years later, but if it's any help the small parlor I got from the 30's - a harmony f-holes flat top, came with original kit and strings I measured those before I threw them out - I'm a nervous Nelly about things that are as dirty as these were -and I was surprised they were very close in weight to the martin light set 12-54. Most of the parlors I play including that one are short scale 24.25 or so. The strings had a custom made ball end.

[rein]

Thinking about this subject, I came across some string tension calculaters, https://tension.stringjoy.com/, and a light,012-.052 set as the ones Harriet measured with 25'' scale (like on a Stella concert ), have a total tension of 173,5 lbs, on a shorter scale even less. When you step down a gauge or even swop for a plain g string , it drops consideratily. If I were to fill in the gauges for custom light (.011-.052),with a .018 plain g string, you end up with 150 lbs, and if you were to tune these up to F, you end up at 168.9 lbs, less then the .012 set at concert pitch. So you might get away with tuning high, provided you use light strings. .

[harriet]

I'm not an expert on 1920's guitars and may have given incomplete information on my findings that would be good to factor in on a high tuning - I have no idea what the pitch the guitar I referred to earlier was set to for playing, just noted that the strings were along the lines of the Martin set. I don't know how relevant the string tension calculator is for 20's guitars. The ebony nut on mine from the 30's was fairly intact so I don't think there was much tension