Topic: Charlie Patton's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips

[waxwing]

UB, why would you use a thumb wrap for the 5XXX35 when you could just drop the same C chord form another fret and get it there, then drop the form down to the C position? Never have to change your hand. Just lookin' for the easy way.-G-

All for now.
John C.

[uncle bud]

Absolutely right, wax. I think I had it the way I do because if you hit much more of the chord, it sounds like crap at this fret (no guitar in hand at the moment)! So I was initial just playing the two-note partial. But yes, it makes much more sense to do what you say...

[uncle bud]

A little bit of confusion: for 'look pretty' did you mean C form?: so 665X46 rather than the 667X46 you have?

Yes, exactly. Sorry, typo... Have corrected the above.

[phangeaux]

I just gave it a listen and I hear his slide hitting the frets just after 2min-30sec into the song, just after "I'll tell you something",  if that is a clue. (The file I have is 3:26 long)

I haven't started playing lapstyle yet (want to master bottleneck first) but I would think that you would not hear the slide hitting the frets this way if played lapstyle.  It seems like this is during some vibrato right over the fret. You can hear it a bit aagain the next time he playes those notes and you can hear the slide hitting at the end of the song.   I haven't tried playing this song yet but if you try it each way you might be able to judge by that fret noise.

Do  you think the fret noise would be the same either  way or did I misunderstand the question?   (about flat picking rather than playing position)

phangeaux

[Parlor Picker]

Watermelon Slim aka Bill Homans has an unorthodox, yet effective lap-style.  Firstly he's left-handed (not that that is relevant here), he plays with a shot glass as a slide and uses a flatpick.  He is really adept at keeping the bass line going, but also quickly moving the pick across the strings to hit the treble note.  Even Fred McDowell pieces, where you would expect to have to use thumb for bass and fingers for treble, are effected very convincingly.

Slim toured the UK a couple of times and I saw him on both tours.  He has a genuine feel for blues, gets into a great groove and really rocks - plus the fact that he has a good voice for this type of music.

[uncle bud]

I just gave it a listen and I hear his slide hitting the frets just after 2min-30sec into the song, just after "I'll tell you something",  if that is a clue. (The file I have is 3:26 long)

I haven't started playing lapstyle yet (want to master bottleneck first) but I would think that you would not hear the slide hitting the frets this way if played lapstyle.  It seems like this is during some vibrato right over the fret. You can hear it a bit aagain the next time he playes those notes and you can hear the slide hitting at the end of the song.   I haven't tried playing this song yet but if you try it each way you might be able to judge by that fret noise.

Do  you think the fret noise would be the same either  way or did I misunderstand the question?   (about flat picking rather than playing position)

phangeaux

Hi phangeaux and welcome to WeenieCampbell!

I don't think it's you misunderstanding the question so much as I was not being clear. Maybe that's why this thread died a quick death when I started it. 

I think that for most if not all of Patton's slide tunes, he is playing lap style. He is very rarely hitting fretted notes beyond the usual chords played with a bar, and the notes in the treble strings for the melody parts. So no left hand fretting. (Magnolia Blues/When Your Way Gets Dark has one or two fretted bass notes but they could in fact be played with a steel/bottleneck/bar/shot glass quite easily.) Another reason I think Patton played lap style for his slide pieces, and perhaps the main one, is that there are very high notes in the melodies of a number of the songs, played well beyond the 12th fret, that are much easier to get cleanly when playing lapstyle (Magnolia Blues again, Bo Weavil, others). That's not to say one can't play them in a regular upright position (Paul Geremia is pretty damn convincing doing it, for instance). I just think Patton played on his lap for most of these slide numbers. There is also, of course, the photo of him with a guitar on his lap playing that stunt chord with his left hand. And frankly, if Patton played these upright with a slide on his pinky, I don't think he could have resisted fretting notes and playing bass runs and the like. He was a ham, not a minimalist.

All of that said, I don't really play lap-style myself, so do not speak from much experience.

I think that the fret noise you point out could still be made playing lapstyle -- I've certainly done it as I hack away trying to play something -- especially if one is playing a guitar that is not a dedicated lap guitar, which is what I'd bet Patton would have done: just put a regular gitfiddle in his lap and play away.

What I was wondering was whether when playing lap style, Charlie played with a flatpick. It Won't Be Long being a prime possibility, largely because of the sixteenth notes in the slide treble melody.

Parlor Picker, yes Slim is pretty damned impressive, especially his solo material IMO. Much of the band stuff was a little too rockin' for me...well I'm a fuddy-duddy I guess....  But I'll listen again.

[bighollowtwang]

My theory is that Patton played his slide numbers lap style, but on the same guitar he used for conventional playing, without the benefit of a nut extender...hence the occasional slide rattle. Impossible to know for sure unless someone cooks up a time machine within our lifetimes. How I'd love to have been a fly on the wall at that first '29 session!

[BlindIrwinHymowitz]

I've had the flatpick/fingerpick debate with countless guitarists over the years regarding Patton and everyone has a different opinion it seems. I personally think he used fingernails and strummed with the index finger of the right hand. I see no real reason to believe he uses a flatpick at all in a non-lapstyle setting. I can't imagine he pulls out picks just to play lapslide. I don't think he used picks at all but probably had really strong, country fingernails. Cut through glass most likely.

I know he couldn't have done *some* of the stuff (the "A Down the Staff" as Son called it) with a pick, or it seems unlikely he would have anyway. I also don't see him as being a guy that went "yeah, just give me a minute while I get out my pick" - kills it for me. :-)

[farka]

I just found this site in the last few days, and it is great. Especially the Keys to the Highway section. One thing I was wondering, and I hope some of you golden eared folks can help me out, is whether Patton would've been using a capo. I notice there are a lot of tunes in Bb and B in Spanish tuning. I can't imagine the guitar would be tuned up to B, so I'm capoing at the 3rd & 4th respectively. Gets the job done, but was Charley doing this back in the day?

[bighollowtwang]

Tuning as high as possible was pretty common back then. Tighter tuning = more volume. I doubt that he used a capo. I think that most of the prewar guitarists tuned up to Spanish tuning (open A as opposed to open G).

[banjochris]

I both agree and disagree with bighollowtwang. I think Patton probably tuned up to A and used a capo (sometimes). I can see tuning up to B-flat without breaking strings -- barely -- but I'm not sure you could crank a guitar all the way to Spanish at B without doing it.
Chris

[Coyote Slim]

Or the recording is at the wrong speed.   

[Ol Scratch]

Or the recording is at the wrong speed.   

I think this is very much a possibility. If you look at many blues songs of the time, when transcribed they need a capo. I play Revenue Man Blues open A capo third fret.

[Ol Scratch]

Did Charley Patton perform this in standard? And if so, could someone possibly give me a tab, as I'm pretty hopeless at working out blues/ragtime in standard tuning 

Thanks in advance

[Richard]

Wonder if that's the same "Shake it and break it"  as King Oliver recorded, somrhow I think not!