Topic: Casey Bill Weldon - photos

[LoneWolf]

Until today, I thought that this is the only photo of him:




But today I read that there is a photo of him that was taken c. 1941, with an electric guitar!!

Does anybody know where I can find it?

[MTJ3]

Superseded by subsequent, corrected post.

[dj]

I believe that the photograph you are looking for is on vol. 3 of the CBW Document CDs.

Actually, it's on the cover of Volume 2.  Not a very big or very good reproduction - it's rather dark - but I've never seen a better one.  I have this nagging feeling that I've seen a picture of Weldon seated with a lap steel, but I can't seem to lay my hands on it and may well be confusing it in my mind with a picture of Oscar Woods.

[MTJ3]

Actually, it's on the cover of Volume 2. 

As noted by dj, the photograph to which you refer is likely the one shown on vol. 2 of CBW CDs issued by Document (DOCD 5218) (not vol. 3, as I previously posted). Unfortunately, the photo is not credited, and one must assume that the good people from Document have done their diligence and aren't having us on by just slapping some old photo lying around on the cover of the Weldon CD.  There are two men in the photograph.  The man holding the archtop (which appears to be a National) is not, I believe, the putative Weldon.  The man to his left appears to be holding a guitar "Hawaiian style," so I would assume that is supposed to be Weldon; as dj notes, the quality of the photo is very poor, and I can't tell if he's holding a wood, steel or lap steel.  Neither of the men in that photo looks to me like the Will Weldon in the photograph that you posted, so I think that supports the argument of those who maintain that there were two guitarists with the surname Weldon (as to which I will provide a further post once I have returned home).

[mr mando]

From Wirz's site:

[bobo]

The photo is credited in the liner notes. It is from the Chicago Defender 1941. The Chicago Defender 1941 info was on another volumn of Casey Bill. The liner notes writer says the guy on the left is Casey Bill. I think it's the guy on the right. He has a lap steel on his lap. You have to blow the picture up and lighten it to see it.

[Stefan Wirz]

did just that:

click on picture to further enlarge !

[MTJ3]

If there is an specific attribution for the photograph on the cover of vol. 2, I can't find it on my copies of the liner notes for the Document CDs.

The "liner notes" to vol. 3 state: "After these final recordings in December 1938, very little is known about Weldon, although a contemporary photograph of him has been discovered, holding an amplified guitar, in the Chicago Defender of January 4, 1941."

As if that's not sufficiently vague and one needs more uncertainty on this issue, the liner notes to vol. 2 (on which the photograph in question appears) state:  "However, both of the surviving photographs of Weldon show him holding a normal guitar, holding and playing it in the standard position."

Assuming that the notes for vol. 2 were written before those for vol. 3 and that the writer of the liner notes had seen the photograph on the cover of vol. 2, I infer from this is that the writer of the liner notes (1) at the time of the writing of the vol. 2 liner notes, had seen two photographs of Weldon (and we don't know whether he was a one Weldon or two Weldon theorist, so we don't know if he was referring to one or more photos of Will Weldon), and (2) at the time of writing of the vol. 3 liner notes, may have seen a third photograph.  Without more, we can't know for certain if there were three photographs.  That (1) in the vol. 2 liner notes, the writer refers to a "normal guitar" (which, in that context, he was distinguishing from a National steel guitar), and (2) in the vol. 3 liner notes, the writer refers to an "amplified guitar" may suggest that there may have been three photographs because one would have expected the writer to refer also to an "amplified guitar" rather than merely a "normal guitar" in the vol. 2 liner notes as, one might argue, that seemed to be a pertinent distinction to him.  One could probably also make something out of the "has been discovered" statement to bolster the argument that the writer had seen three photographs at the time of the writing of the vol. 3 liner notes after having seen only two at the time of the writing of the vol. 2 liner notes. 

On the other hand, as BH might attest, it is entirely possible that the writer of the liner notes did not see the photograph on vol. 2 before writing those liner notes, and saw it only later, in time to include reference to it in the vol. 3 liner notes.  There are other alternatives, but I'll stop here.

In any case, that's all just speculation, and it would be nice if Dave Moore, the writer of the liner notes, or someone else with first hand knowledge of the matter could clarify this point.

[Bunker Hill]

On the other hand, as BH might attest, it is entirely possible that the writer of the liner notes did not see the photograph on vol. 2 before writing those liner notes, and saw it only later, in time to include reference to it in the vol. 3 liner notes. 

From my brief experience of doing work for Document (Aug 1990-Dec 1995) I'm guessing such is the case Morgan.

However, I've passed on your well argued observations to Dave Moore asking if he would like to lay the matter to rest with an answer that I can pass on here. We'll see what transpires.

[Bunker Hill]

Dave Moore has kindly taken the time and trouble to recount the sequence of events and also his thoughts on the matter.
===========================
OK, here's my reply to the Weldon query, which you can send to the list if you wish.

It's been a while since I wrote the notes for the three Casey Bill Weldon  CDs on Document -- 14 years to be exact -- but I will try to recall the  sequence of events involving the notes and photographs.

I know that I wrote all three notes at the same time. I was probably given a  time limit of about a week for this -- as was usual with Johnny P. At the time I had seen only two photos of Bill Weldon. The first was the one that had graced the covers of the Document, Old Tramp, and Earl LPs of his work, which I'd first seen as part of the group shot of the Memphis Jug Band on the cover of Origin's The Great Jug Bands LP. The second reached me just before I began writing the liner notes, in the form of a blurred and grainy  photocopy from the Chicago Defender of January 4, 1941. This was sent to me by Guido van Rijn, who had obtained it from Ray Funk. This second photo was to appear on the cover of Casey Bill Weldon, Volume 2, although the credit for it was given in the notes for Volume 1! I should say that I had no idea what cover art Johnny intended to use -- I provided merely the notes.

The quality of the photocopy I had of the second photo was so poor that I  could not distinguish that the person on the right had any kind of  instrument. He seemed merely to be standing alongside the guitarist, whom I  naturally took to be Weldon. My remarks concerning a "normal" guitar were  meant to distinguish it from an Hawaiian guitar, which it had been suggested  he played. I was not intending the remark to differentiate between acoustic  or electric instruments.

Having since seen somewhat clearer copies of the second photograph I can now  see that the person on the right does appear to be standing behind an  instrument which could indeed be a lap steel guitar, and if that is the case  I'm happy to assume that it is indeed Weldon. The original copy that Guido  passed on to me did not include any accompanying caption from the newspaper.  I felt that, if it existed it might help clarify the situation. Guido  approached Ray Funk for more information, but I believe none was  forthcoming. Maybe it's still not too late, if a copy of that newspaper can  be located.

If it is Weldon with a lap steel instrument, who is the other guitarist?  Could it be the musician who provided those dazzling accompaniments on  Weldon's October 1937 recordings and who has never been properly identified?  Another topic for discussion, perhaps. 
Dave Moore

[Rivers]

I was wondering about the other guy. Not at all sure about this but he looks to me like he could be of Sicilian extraction or similar. Take this wild hypothesis with a grain of salt. The other guy, tentatively Bill, is definitely sitting down playing lap style, not standing.

Are we all convinced that's a National archtop? Apart from the blob of a badge on the peghead it looks like a Gibson to me, especially the pickguard. Whatever, it's got two knobs on it so it's electrified.

Those October 37 recordings contain some of my favorite guitar playing ever. Particularly brilliant is the solo on "You Shouldn't Do That", which I once learned note for note. I still consider it to be near perfection. The swing style and total coolness of the phrasing immediately reminds me of Eddie Lang, but Eddie died in 1933. So if I were a blues detective looking for clues I'd be asking "who else recorded for Vocalion in that period and used a pickup band containing a brilliant jazz guitarist that played like Eddie Lang?"

I notice John M and Stephen Calt's notes to Yazoos Bottleneck Guitar Trendsetters agrees with me and adds some more, quote:

Of particular interest is the unidentified guitar player on You Just As Well Let Her Go, Go Ahead Buddy, Lady Doctor and You Shouldn't Do That. Behind Weldon's singing he plays full chords in the fashion of Ted Bogan [who worked with Carl Martin and Howard Armstrong]; his elaborate instrumental breaks mark him as one of the most outstanding guitarists of the Thirties. Though discographers identify him as Big Bill Broonzy, his playing is in the style of Banjo Ikey Robinson, and he may even be Robinson himself. Adding further zest to the accompaniment is the presence of Black Bob on Just As Well Let Her Go and the Broonzyish Back Door Blues.

[dj]

Scans of the Chicago Defender from 1921 - 1975 are available on ProQuest.  Since we know the date of the issue in which the photo appeared, it should be easy to find to see what the caption says.  Unfortunately, my library system only has ProQuest access to issues of the Defender dating back to 1999.  Anyone have personal ProQuest access or work for an institution that has access to the historical database? 

[MTJ3]

  Are we all convinced that's a National archtop? Apart from the blob of a badge on the peghead it looks like a Gibson to me, especially the pickguard. Whatever, it's got two knobs on it so it's electrified.

You're probably right about the manufacturer of the guitar. My take was entirely impressionistic.  I think I keyed in on the badge.  The fret board looks like that of a Gibson, but I'm not completely convinced on the pickguard.  I sort of see the knobs, but bear in mind that the electric Gibsons of that era were somewhat smaller than the L-5s and L-7s, and this doesn't look small enough to me to be an electric.  Whatever the case may be, you should look to someone with a better knowledge of vintage instruments than I have.

BH,  Many, many thanks. 

I posted some info over on the PWBG a 3 or so years ago on the "two Weldon" question.  I can't seem to find it among my "stuff," but when I unearth it, I will dutifully post same here.




 

[Rivers]

Anyone know when the first electric archtops appeared, both National and Gibson? This is a pretty crucial question WRT to the photograph's provenance since I believe I can see two knobs. Since they're positioned fairly high up (you can make out the F hole very indistinctly below the topmost one), there are probably four, positioned in the typical Gibson diamond pattern. This would in turn indicate two pickups. We need that pickup date, the photo may be from a much later era. Or a fake I suppose.

Other things one can notice is it's a sunburst. The peghead, and possibly the fretboard, are bound and the fret markers are large. This would indicate it was a high-end instrument since the low end Gibsons (if it is a Gibson) did not have these appointments.

This reminds me of the David Hemmings / Anotonioni movie "Blow Up"... I think I see a hand coming out of the bushes holding a gun...

[waxwing]

Check out this site, Riv. According to this, the ES-100, a "smaller guitar" came out in '38, and the ES-125, which could look very much like this guitar (knob location and trapezoidal fret markers), came out in '41. Epiphone had a big archtop electric from '35 on but, as you pointed out, the knobs are in the wrong location. No info on National electrics on that site, but I think MTJ3 may be right, doesn't look like anyone else's headstock label.

[Edit] I just read back and saw that the picture was published in a '41 issue of the Defender, so I guess the Gibson is a possibility. I was thinking '37 if it was from the recording date under discussion.


All for now.
John C.

[Bunker Hill]

BH,  Many, many thanks. 

I posted some info over on the PWBG a 3 or so years ago on the "two Weldon" question.  I can't seem to find it among my "stuff," but when I unearth it, I will dutifully post same here.

Located it (13 Sept 04) and part of a Steamboat Bill discussion. Here's what it was:

If Casey Bill Weldon is, in fact, Will Weldon of MJB fame, then,
according to the 1930 census, he was 26 on his last birthday and was
born in Mississippi. At the time of the census, he was living at 223
Fourth, Memphis, TN, with his sister and brother-in-law. It showed that
he was married at the age of 22 and was still married, but his wife was
not resident at the same location. That a lodger in that residence was
"Willie Shade" suggests to me strongly that this was the Memphis Jug
Band Will Weldon. Living with Shade was his wife Pearl Shade. Will
Shade's occupation was shown as "Musician" and his place of employment
was "Night Club." Pearl's occupation was shown as "Singer" and her
place of employment was "Victor Records." They were both born 32 on
their last birthday, born in Tennessee and had been married since they
were 21. One William Shade was shown in the 1920 census as having been
22 or 23 (the handwriting is not clear to me) on his last birthday. He
was living on Rayburn with his mother, Mary Banks. He was shown as
married, but his wife was not living at that location.

My question is, does anyone have any thoughts about the identity of
"Pearl" the Victor records singer? Pearl Dickson recorded for Columbia,
so that leaves her out, and I haven't found any other Pearl in B&GR that
would fit the bill.

[Rivers]

I have an ES-125, 1948, single P90 p/up. It's not an ES-100 either. Both of these were low end, no binding on the neck or head, single dot markers. Likewise the ES-150. I note it says on that site the ES-150 had a pickup on introduction in 1936. Any advances on 1936? Charlie Christian started playing electric with Benny Goodman '39 and according to this site started playing a true electric ES-150 in 1937. So I doubt the it was much before '36

Does look like a National logo I admit. The rest looks like a Gibson though.

[edit: Ah yes but the photo is dated 1941. Read the thread properly Rivers. In that case I reckon it's an ES-250, Charlie Christian's guitar]

[natterjack]

I definitely would go for it being a National. Not only does it have the logo, but also the distinctive large National headstock shape. This was used on Style O resonators between 1939 and 1940. Not sure when it was used on archtop models - but proabaly a fairly similar time period.

I believe that Gibson made the bodies of some of National's better archtop models in the '30s. So that may explain the Gibsonesque qualities.

[Bunker Hill]

Dave Moore: The first [photo] was the one that had graced the covers of the Document, Old Tramp, and Earl LPs of his work, which I'd first seen as part of the group shot of the Memphis Jug Band on the cover of Origin's The Great Jug Bands LP.

This is discussed by Sam Charters on page 19 of Sweet As Showers Of Rain (Oak, 1977) and makes fascinating reading thus:

"They [MJB] were selling enough records for Victor to do a little advertising. An ad in the Memphis newspapers showed a picture of the band. Son and Will Weldon were sitting in front with their guitars, Son grinning broadly. Ben Ramey was behind Son's shoulder, wearing a coat and tie, holding a long kazoo in his hand. Charlie Polk was in a jacket, a button sweater, and a shirt with a loose, open collar, holding a large earthenware jug and smiling almost to himself. A drawing made from the photograph ? putting neckties on all of them and buttoning Charlie's collar ? was used in the advertisements for the Chicago Defender"

[onewent]

..my hunch was National, too, for the reasons above, and a very knowledgeable friend confirms National, too, possibly Aristocrat model.  That headstock is way not Gibson.

[Rivers]

I can't see much of the headstock but I wouldn't say it's that far off. Got any pics of National archtops? The web seems devoid of a good reference site for these. Wish someone could get us a better copy of the Chicago Defender ad.

[LoneWolf]

doesn't the photo look like a drawing? Look at the stairs behind them!

[Richard]

Confusing eh?

Strangely enough I have CBW playing as I type! Sheer coincidence - I love it!

As for playing "upright" so to speak I have chatted with Michael Messer regarding CBW on several occasions and he his firmly convinced (as a first rate lap player) that Casey Bill could not have recorded all of his material soley playing lap style. The next time we meet I'll ask him what he think's was played "upright"!

I also seem to recall somebody of great authority (eek!) saying that CBW played a single cone, not a tricone.

Sorry about this next bit BH, I missed your post but I'll leave it here just add to it all!
Finally, nobody has really mentioned on this thread  here were the "two" Bill Weldons... one did indeed play with the MJB and was the one (if my fading memoery is correct) that was also married to Memphis Minnie for not very long.... I'm sure I have done another post on this some time back so maybe it's a good test for the Tags!! Also, I do recall actually saying all this as well.. was it on the Memphis Minnie show I did for the juke?

I'm off now to see if I can find any more.... if so I'll add it to this post 

Could have sworn I had some ancient book full of ancient blues photos, but maybe my ancient brain has had it, I can't find it! But I will add for Lonewolf's benefit that BH's other post of 20 Jan does confirm what I think from looking at the pictures, in that it's the MJB Weldon in the photo that started this off.

[Bunker Hill]

FWIW the following is from Women With Guitar (Garon 1992, p.20-21)

Minnie baby-sat for future bluesman Eddie Taylor, with whose mother she had gone to school, but she wasn't home enough to do much baby-sitting. She traveled through Texas with the circus, and she worked in Greenville, Mississippi, with trombonist Pee Wee Whittaker. When she wasn't traveling, she was hanging out on Beale Street playing with various local musicians, from Joe McCoy or the Jed Davenport jug band, to the Memphis Jug Band or the band led by Jack Kelly. It was in these years when Minnie was still in her teens or twenties that she is said to have married Will Weldon, AKA Casey Bill.

While little is known of Weldon, he is said to have been born in Pinebluff, Arkansas, in 1909, and to have recorded with the Memphis Jug Band during their halcyon years of the mid-to late 1920s. Ultimately, he emerged as a solo artist, billed on record as "Casey Bill, the Hawaiian Guitar Wizard." "Casey" was an expanded variation of "KC," for Kansas City, and on his first slide guitar outing in 1935, he was indeed billed as "Kansas City Bill Weldon." The 1927 Turpentine Blues and Hitch Me To Your Buggy, and Drive Me Like a Mule was recorded as by Will Weldon, and it has always been assumed that the two were the same singer. Stylistically, however, there is nothing to link the 1927 Victor session with the bulk of Casey Bill's recorded output from the 1930s; this, and his probable Kansas City origin, suggest that the two Weldons were not even the same person.

Minnie's liaison with Casey Bill has come under increasing attack in recent years, until now many critics doubt whether the relationship even existed. Indeed, it may be that he and Minnie not only never married, but never even met until their recording session together in 1935. This may seem an extreme view, but a close inspection of the facts at our disposal suggests it is correct. The only historical evidence linking Minnie and Weldon is Weldon's certain presence on Minnie's Bluebird session of October 31, 1935?his "Hawaiian" style is so unusual that his presence is instantly recognizable.

[dj]

doesn't the photo look like a drawing? Look at the stairs behind them!

The background actually is a painting.  Old photography studios used to have several painted canvases, rather like stage backdrops, and you could chose which one you wanted to be photographed in front of.  Many of the surviving photos of musicians from the 1920s and 1930s were done in this manner.  Look at the photos of Blind Lemon Jefferson and Memphis Minnie and Kansas Joe here: http://guitarvideos.com/00archive.htm for clearer examples of this.
 

[mississippijohnhurt1928]

Yeah, I Can See It In The Blind Lemon Jefferson Photograph But Not So Much In The Memphis Minnie And Kansas Joe McCoy Picture.

[Richard]

BH, Yes I read that just before I posted and took as further proof, that if you like, there were two Bill Weldons  - somewhere here I have something else on it but I damned if I can find it... know the feeling 

About the photos with backdrops, very common the one of Big Bill B springs immediately to mind.

[MTJ3]

BH,  Many, many thanks. 

I posted some info over on the PWBG a 3 or so years ago on the "two Weldon" question.  I can't seem to find it among my "stuff," but when I unearth it, I will dutifully post same here.

Located it (13 Sept 04) and part of a Steamboat Bill discussion. Here's what it was:

If Casey Bill Weldon is, in fact, Will Weldon of MJB fame, then,
according to the 1930 census, he was 26 on his last birthday and was
born in Mississippi. At the time of the census, he was living at 223
Fourth, Memphis, TN, with his sister and brother-in-law. It showed that
he was married at the age of 22 and was still married, but his wife was
not resident at the same location. That a lodger in that residence was
"Willie Shade" suggests to me strongly that this was the Memphis Jug
Band Will Weldon. Living with Shade was his wife Pearl Shade. Will
Shade's occupation was shown as "Musician" and his place of employment
was "Night Club." Pearl's occupation was shown as "Singer" and her
place of employment was "Victor Records." They were both born 32 on
their last birthday, born in Tennessee and had been married since they
were 21. One William Shade was shown in the 1920 census as having been
22 or 23 (the handwriting is not clear to me) on his last birthday. He
was living on Rayburn with his mother, Mary Banks. He was shown as
married, but his wife was not living at that location.

BH, Thanks for excavating that.  I still haven't found my "stuff" on the 2 Weldon issue, but most of the seminal information is quoted from Paul Garon's book.  Mr. Garon's reference to Weldon's Arkansas birthplace is derived from Broonzy, who, in Big Bill Blues at p. 96, states: "I also played with Casey Bill on the WPA Blues that he recorded.  His real name is William Weldon. He was born in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, in 1909, July 10, and he's in California now."  I was not able to locate any census record for a Casey, Will, William or Bill Weldon in Arkansas (at least not one that would be a likely suspect).  I haven't been able to locate any other documentary records for Will or Casey Bill.

Except as noted below, for the one Weldon theory to be viable, the census record and Broonzy's statement can't both be correct.  The census record could be incorrect if Weldon was not truthful to the census taker for whatever reason (e.g., to escape "legal problems," but then wouldn't it be better simply to tell the census taker another name?).  Similarly, Broonzy's statement could be incorrect if Broonzy simply fabricated it (and no comment here on my reaction to the specificity of Broonzy's recollection) or if Weldon was untruthful to Broonzy for whatever reason.  The census record and Broonzy's recollection could, however, both be correct if the one Weldon thought at one time that he was born in Mississippi in about 1904 and, based on different information, say, from a family member, at another time that he was born in Arkansas in about 1909.  Based solely on documentary evidence of which I'm aware, it seems to me pretty much a matter of personal preference at this point.

I'll try to take a photo of the guitar held by the pseudo-Banjo Ikey (isn't there a CSI tech reading this that could compare the photographs and come up with a scientifically based assessment as to whether that really is BIR?) into a vintage instruments store in the coming weeks to get an opinion. 

[dj]

I found someone with Pro Quest access to the Chicago Defender.  The picture Stefan posted, and which appears on the cover of Document's Casey bill Weldon Volume 2, is not in the January 4, 1941 issue.  It could be that the date is wrong, it could be that the newspaper citation is wrong, or it could be that there was a "local" edition which is different from the "national" edition that Pro Quest has.   

[Richard]

Keep up the quest men, I have trawled the net trying to find more and can add nothing as at present to what we have.