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Country Blues => Country Blues Licks and Lessons => Topic started by: frankie on September 25, 2004, 02:12:50 PM

Title: Re: Barbecue Bob Workshop
Post by: frankie on September 25, 2004, 02:12:50 PM

I attached an extremely feeble demo of a guitar setup that Pat Conte showed me at Lake Genero. He had a Harmony Stella strung with 10 strings in spanish tuning, cranked up to Bflat. He tried to change the neck angle of his in order to put more downward pressure on the bridge - a pretty unsuccessfully operation, but it got the point across. I hope my demo does, too, but I haven't made much of a study of Bbq Bob's style. My Harmony has some problems for this kind of playing - first one is the same problem Pat was trying to fix by changing the neck angle - there's not enough pressure on the bridge/saddle and that presents two problems:

1) There's not enough volume
2) Aggressive playing causes strings to pop out of saddle slots at unfortunate moments

That being said - the tuning itself is pretty cool. Here's how it's strung:

Course 1: .009/.009
Course 2: .012/.012
Course 3: .016/.016
Course 4: .024/.024
Course 5: .032
Course 6: .042

Note that the four double courses are all strung as unisons. I used two banjo strings for the .009's and two light guage D'Addario acoustic guitar sets for the rest. I think I could go heavier on the two single courses.

I raised the action by shimming the saddle, but you still have to be careful about how much energy you put into the sixth string (in particular). More agressive moves like snapping the bass string are completely out of the question, unfortunately without major reptile dentistry on this particular guitar. A tailpiece model guitar with a steeper neck angle would certainly sound better in any case, and a pin bridge guitar would probably sound even better.

I'm tuned in spanish to Bflat - pitches from low to high are F-Bflat-F-Bflat-D-F.

The tune that I'm butchering so heedlessly is She's Gone Blues. Wish I could play it better, but... oh, well... the tuning/setup is the main thing!

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Rivers on September 25, 2004, 03:03:08 PM

Nice job Frank. Certainly has that Bob cool whiney sound. Do you have any background on how Pat Conte figured out this setup? Was it just careful listening or did he get some other input?

My guitar R&D project for this week will be to resurrect my 12 and run over my BBQ Bob songs.

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Slack on September 25, 2004, 03:34:03 PM

Yea Frank, sounds pretty Barbeque-ee to me. Interesting that the 5th and 6th strings are not doubled - I wonder what did Pat heard to make that decision?

cheers,

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: frankie on September 25, 2004, 06:59:34 PM

He came up with it himself, I think... he's a very careful listener - lots of patience and attention to detail. He was bugged about the way the Bbq Bob's bass strings sounded on his recordings (same thing that was mentioned in this thread (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=398)) and the fact that you can clearly hear doubled courses, but never really the "octave jangle" that one usually hears with a twelve string. Pat's got a lot of instruments lying around and is definitely *not* afraid of boogering up something non-collectible to get the sound he wants. I wish I had recorded him playing Yo Yo Blues on the guitar he had set up. It was easier to play aggressively than mine, and he sounded great playing that tune. He said he got so excited about the initial results of hs experiment that he was calling up people and playing at them over the phone. What a nut!

edited 7-May-2015 to fix the link to the 12 string gauges thread.

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: uncle bud on September 25, 2004, 08:51:19 PM

Sounds very cool, Frank. This is the closest I've heard a guitar sound to BBQ Bob's. Those high strings sound like the real thing, and I would have thought the slide would be quieter with that guage on the top course. Rings out nicely. I guess all that tension helps. Also think I agree about the bass after listening to a few Bob tunes.

How many strings you break trying this?

Conte is definitely on to something...

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: frankie on September 25, 2004, 09:49:43 PM

Quote from: uncle bud on September 25, 2004, 08:51:19 PM

I would have thought the slide would be quieter with that guage on the top course. Rings out nicely. I guess all that tension helps.

I wasn't sure about the light strings, either, but it really does sound ok...? I was really skeptical going in about the unwound third course being so light, but it really sings.? Would probably sound even better with higher action and more downward pressure on the bridge.? This Harmony just can't really go there, though.? I'd have to totally change the geometry of the guitar to get it right.? Not happening in my house - I'm not as fearless as Pat!

Quote from: uncle bud on September 25, 2004, 08:51:19 PM

Also think I agree about the bass after listening to a few Bob tunes.

Check out one of the tunes where he really pops the bass strings - I think that's where it's really clear that he's got single strings, at least on the lowest string.

Quote from: uncle bud on September 25, 2004, 08:51:19 PM

How many strings you break trying this?

None.? Yet.

Quote from: uncle bud on September 25, 2004, 08:51:19 PM

Conte is definitely on to something...

Indeedy!

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: frankie on September 25, 2004, 10:08:32 PM

Incidentally, as I was converting the audio for the attachment to mp3, my son came in the room - he's 5.? He said "Is that *you*?"? I said "Yes...? does it sound bad?"? He said "No." in a voice that didn't seem to say he liked it, either...? then he kinda laughed and said "you sound like an old man."

Then he put on his best "telling dad like it is" face and said "but you *are* an old man."

Kids...

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Johnm on September 26, 2004, 10:33:31 AM

Hi Frank,
I've been out all week-end, just got back and getting caught up here. Boy, this piece sounds good! I love in the answering signature lick, when you do that descending pull-off on the second string and get the second fret going down--it sounds really great, that eerie #4 note. A couple of thoughts with regard to set-up, re-setting neck angles, etc.
* Do you think there is any reason necessarily to assume that BBQ Bob was in fact tuned at Bflat on the original recording, as opposed to Spanish at pitch and then capoed in some fashion? I ask because use of a capo, even of the home-made type, which is almost undoubtedly what Bob used if he used one, could solve a bunch of the set-up problems. And if I'm not mistaken, the left hand on this tune would allow plenty of space to play this tune, even if capoed to the third fret--it doesn't sound like there's anything higher than the fifth fret until the closing lick. If you tuned at pitch and capoed, you could use heavier gauge strings and it would alleviate two problems--the likelihood of string breakage and the issue of getting adequate pressure on the bridge. The greater tension caused by heavier strings would also reduce the need for altering the neck angle, since the strings would be less slack and "flappy". You could also drive them much harder and play considerably louder. It is hard for me to reconcile the idea of Bob using a string set with such a high possibility of breakage ($). Similarly, it is tough to imagine a guy who probably only had one guitar screwing around with the neck angle to be able to achieve some sound he had in his head--kind of tough to jeopardize your meal ticket that way. (Though it is certainly possible that he took fortuitous advantage of his guitar really needing a neck re-set.)
I have long suspected that the use of capos was much more wide-spread among the old-timers than has been acknowledged so far. Of course, in many instances there is no way to know for sure. But when you think of a lot of Henry Thomas tunes, or Shell Smith's guitar part on "Carroll County Blues", where they are using the D position to play in the key of G, I don't see any way they could be tuned that high and play that strong. Similarly, I think Charley Jordan capoed all the time.
All that having been said, it really seems like Pat nailed Bob's string set-up. Way to listen! I sure do like the sound of the courses in unison. And your playing and singing sound great. I think if you could invent a great home-made twelve string capo (maybe a carpenter's pencil with extra heavy industrial rubber band?) you could string it heavier with the same relative proportions and be able to drive it harder and sound bigger. It would be great to hear what it sounds like in person.
All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Rivers on September 26, 2004, 12:32:09 PM

I was wondering that myself re. capo. My 12 capoed just plain doesn't work but it's a bit of an agricultaral implement at the best of times. It would work better without the doubled 5th and 6th and a unison set on 4th, the diff in string diameter being the cause of the unwounds to buzz/mute.

This altered setup would have to work better capoed than a standard setup. It would make sense for a 12-string-o-centric gigging musician like Bob Hicks to land on something like that; would give him a lot more flexibility esp. when playing in string bands i.e. the Georgia Cotton Pickers.

Re downforce strikes me you could raise the saddle quite a bit higher than a std 12 can take and increase the break angle with slots (on a pin holed guitar). Hmmm...

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: frankie on September 26, 2004, 12:47:16 PM

Bbq Bob probably used a capo for some stuff.? The pitches of his recordings seem to be anywhere from Aflat to Dflat.? The boogering of the neck angle had more to do with overcoming the limitations of the guitars that Pat and I happened to have on hand for nutty experimentation- Harmony 12 strings from the 60's - they bear very little resemblance to the guitars that Bob would have had at his disposal.? Those would have been much more like real instruments!? With that in mind, even if he tuned up to pitch on a Stella 12 string, that would be tuned pretty high, relatively speaking, since they would have had a 26.5 inch (or more, possibly) scale length.? Something like that would be most comfortable tuned to E or D in spanish tuning, especially with the heavier strings generally available at the time.

In short, I think it's likely that he would have figured out some way to use lighter strings (like banjo strings, for example) and tuned up to somewhere like Aflat, and probably capoed for stuff that was pitched higher (or tuning higher, depending on what he wanted to do in the upper positions), but I don't think he tried to change the geometry of the guitar the way Pat did - he wouldn't have needed to, since his instruments probably didn't suck.? If I was going to try this on a real Stella (I should say - on *your* Stella! ) or a Stella repro, I'd go with lighter strings in general because 1) I think they sound right and 2) they would relieve some of the tension with the long scale? (preventing the guitar from folding in half).

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Johnm on September 26, 2004, 02:41:51 PM

Hi all,
For what it's worth, I realized I have a big photo of Barbecue Bob that I've never seen elsewhere on the cover of an old Folkways re-issue, "Atlanta Blues". He is dressed very nattily in it, in a wide pin-striped suit. His guitar looks pretty small. It does have twelve strings on it, and based strictly on appearance, the G and D pairs do appear to be in unisons, rather than octaves (big honking plain G strings), the A pair may or may not be in octaves, though I think they are, and the low E pair is definitely in octaves. Both of the lower strings in the A and low E courses appear to be of a narrower diameter than the D strings. Odd, what? From this picture, I would say we can definitely conclude . . . nothing, apart from the fact that he had twelve strings on his guitar that day.
All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: frankie on September 26, 2004, 04:42:45 PM

I think I've seen the picture you're talking about, although never seen a reproduction large enough to make out the strings.

I was listening a little today and noticed the neatest IV7 chord in Yo Yo Blues - fingered like a C in standard tuning, except that he's in spanish tuning. That makes the note fingered at the third fret of the fifth string the flat 7 relative to whatever pitch he's tuned to. Nifty!

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Johnm on September 26, 2004, 04:46:25 PM

Hi Frank,
Funny you would mention it--he looks to be fingering that very chord in the picture!
All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Rivers on September 26, 2004, 04:50:19 PM

Yup, Alvin Hart taught us that one;? great for going to the IV on Henry Townsend stuff also. Sounds very cool for the IV in open D/E, shifted across one string.

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: frankie on September 26, 2004, 05:52:12 PM

Quote from: frankie on September 26, 2004, 12:47:16 PM

I don't think he tried to change the geometry of the guitar the way Pat did

Just wanted to say that Pat clearly didn't think that Bbq Bob did that to his guitar, either, it was just a way of getting a crummy guitar to behave!

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: frankie on September 29, 2004, 01:03:25 PM

Quote from: Rivers on September 26, 2004, 12:32:09 PM

My 12 capoed just plain doesn't work but it's a bit of an agricultaral implement at the best of times. It would work better without the doubled 5th and 6th and a unison set on 4th, the diff in string diameter being the cause of the unwounds to buzz/mute.

I should have piped up with this before, but I've noticed that using a capo on a 12-string with a radiused fingerboard really accentuates the string diameter problem. With a flat fingerboard (like on the old Stellas), for some reason, you don't get as much buzz/muting with the octave courses. I can capo the Fraulini willy-nilly, but it's impossible to capo the Harmony - forget it!

Actually, I haven't tried using a capo since it's been strung up all weird. Hmmm... wonder if the new setup will be more capo-friendly?

Title: Re: Barbecue Bob Workshop
Post by: Ignatznochops on November 24, 2004, 11:28:28 AM

So glad to have found this site. Thanks to the Most Reverend T. Cambio for turning me on to it.

I know that Barbeque Bob's playing isn't ranked up there with the greats, but I've been trying to work out his right hand technique on the 12 string with only partial success. If somebody could shed some light on the relationship between thumb and fingers and perhaps tab out (I know, I know, dang neophytes) a tune or two for posting here I'd be much obliged.

I kind of like BBQ's playing in that he gets a big noise for accompaniment without a whole lot of technical prowess, which is about where I am in my playing'

Thanks in advance.

Joe

Title: Re: BBQ Bob's right hand
Post by: Slack on November 24, 2004, 11:57:27 AM

Welcome to the forum Joe.

I'm not sure it would be possible to tab out BBQ Bob's right hand. This is probably not much help, but someone commented one time that BBQ Bob used a "frailing" technique. ..and I can hear in his playing how that might be (hard to tell for sure though). So you might experiment around with frailing your 12 string.

Cheers,
slack

Title: Re: BBQ Bob's right hand
Post by: Ignatznochops on November 24, 2004, 12:24:41 PM

Sorry, frailing? I'm not much of a banjo player, don't really know what this entails. More info would be much appreciated.

Thanks for your response.

Joe

How do you insert a photo under your sign in signature, by the way?

Title: Re: BBQ Bob's right hand
Post by: uncle bud on November 24, 2004, 12:37:59 PM

Perhaps Frankie will pipe up on Bob's right hand, having recently experimented with his unusual string setup. I personally hear a lot of downstrokes from the thumb, and of course some thumb string-snapping...

Title: Re: BBQ Bob's right hand
Post by: Slack on November 24, 2004, 03:29:28 PM

Quote from: Ignatznochops on November 24, 2004, 12:24:41 PM

Sorry, frailing? I'm not much of a banjo player, don't really know what this entails. More info would be much appreciated.

Well, basically some quick brushes with the back of your fingers. But Uncle Bud is right - let's let frankie chime in - he posted a very BBQ-like MP3 in the back porch (if oyu have not have heard it, go download it immediately), he is also a banjo player and will ahve an good opinion on whether BBQ Bob does indeed use some kind of frailing motion.

Quote

How do you insert a photo under your sign in signature, by the way?

Click on: Profile->Forum Profile Information ...and you'll see where you can insert a photo (called "avatars"). We've got a few R. Crumb ones you can choose from, or go find one on your own and upload it to the forum.

Cheers,
slack

Title: Re: BBQ Bob's right hand
Post by: frankie on November 24, 2004, 07:04:14 PM

I'm not sure I have a whole lot of light to shed on the issue - I'm still scratching the surface with BBQ Bob and have been distracted lately by a mean Lemon fixation.? I'm not sure that the word "frailing" is helpful beyond generally describing his picking style as relying on some heavy strumming in some places.? Frailing is a term that can mean any number of different picking styles - I think I remember seeing the "frailing" description in the Bastin book, but I'm not sure exactly what he meant by it, if in fact he meant it to describe a particular technique or just the impression that BBQ Bob's sound left on him.? I'm not sure I hear anything in his style that's related directly to banjo playing, but I can't totally rule it out - the banjo is played so many different ways that anything is possible!? I don't think that what BBQ Bob is doing has anything *at all* to do with what some players currently call "frailing" on the guitar.? Google Steve Baughman for an example - not my cup-o-tea at all.

One thing I think I hear in spots is a chugga-chugga sound that I usually associate with Maybelle Carter's guitar playing.? She gets that sound by picking a bass note with her thumb and then brushing quickly with her index finger across the treble strings in an up-down-up motion.? I'm not totally sure that BBQ Bob is doing anything like that in places, but it's something I'd try just to rule it out.

On stuff like She's Gone Blues or Atlanta Moan, his sound seems more conventional in the right hand - thumb on the bass while the finger works the melody.? There are occasional bass runs and spots where he drops the bass.? On Barbecue Blues, it sounds like there could be a combination of the chugga-chugga pattern I described above, some heavy thumb-strums and some string-snapping in the bass.? In California Blues, it also sounds like the chugga-chugga pattern is being used.? It'd be possible to get that sound with a flatpick, too...

Ignatznochops, do you have a particular tune that you're interested in?? Since BBQ Bob seems to me to have more than one approach to playing it might help to try and suss out one specific tune, then build on lessons learned there to figure out other stuff.

Rivers said he had a bunch of BBQ Bob that he plays - maybe he'll chime in here.

Edited to add:? Another guy whose input would be interesting (in addition to JohnM - of course!) is Joshua Jacobson - he plays guitar for Cora Mae Bryant and has made a real study of the Georgia players.? You can check out what he's done here (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/4/coramaebryantandjoshuamjacobsonmusic.htm).

Title: Re: BBQ Bob's right hand
Post by: Ignatznochops on November 24, 2004, 08:12:35 PM

One tune that I really like is Yo Yo Blues. I think its full of what you're calling that "chugga chugga". I've heard a couple o people cover that one to similar effect, inlcuding Paul Rishell. Not even sure what tuning it's in. I think he plays it in open E, but I can't imagine BBQ Bob's Stella being up to that kind of abuse on a regular basis. If somebody could figure out the tuning and chords on this that would be great...

Joe

Title: Re: BBQ Bob's right hand
Post by: frankie on November 24, 2004, 08:37:59 PM

Yo Yo Blues is played in spanish tuning - seems like he's tuned to about Aflat.? Tuned from low to high, that would be:

Eflat
Aflat
Eflat
Aflat
C
Eflat

If you're using a real Stella or Stella repro 12-string, I wouldn't tune to those pitches unless you first strung it up with some lighter strings.? There's some suggestions in this thread (http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?Itemid=47&?topic=606.0).

In YYB, he fingers the IV7 chord as if it were a C chord in std tuning - but because he's in spanish, the note at the 3rd fret of the fifth string ends up being the flat7 - a very cool sound.? It sounds to me like he plays a riff where the V chord would be, not really articulating the chord at all.? He also starts the verse on the IV chord rather than the I - maybe not totally unusual, but worth noting.

I agree that BBQ Bob's guitar probably suffered from tuning high regularly.? He probably owned several guitars during the course of his career.

Edited to add:? you might be more familiar with the notion of spanish tuning as "G tuning" (DGDGBD).? I like to use the names spanish and vestapol (for D and E tunings) because the actual pitches don't mean much, just the relationships between the strings.? Simlarly, std tuning to me means a tuning where each string is tuned in 4ths, except the 2nd string, which is a 3rd.? Std tuning doesn't necessarily mean that the guitar has to be tuned to concert pitch.

Title: Re: BBQ Bob's right hand
Post by: Rivers on November 25, 2004, 12:45:19 PM

Like most people whose songs I try to steal they end up a lot different when I play them but I admit I have listened a lot to Bob. My observations: Check out the timing. Bob had a lot of feel and subtle variation, 'dancey' is how I would describe it.

Other than that my only advice would be to close your eyes and imagine you are a runaway musical combine harvester, red wine may enhance the experience.

Title: Re: BBQ Bob's right hand
Post by: frankie on November 27, 2004, 12:54:59 PM

Hi Joe - I had to do a lot of driving over the weekend, so I listened a bunch to Yo Yo Blues and just figured a little bit of it out quickly.? To get the chugga-chugga sound on the IV chord and I chord, I ended up alternating between my thumb and index, aiming more for the middle or bass strings rather than the treble strings (this is basically what uncle bud suggested earlier).? In a four beat measure, the pattern would be like:


Beat:? 1? &? 2? &? 3? &? 4? &? 
?         T? I?  T? I?  T?  I?  T? I

On beats 1 and 3, a bass note is picked.? Beats 2 and 4 are heavily brushed - I think the rhythmic emphasis really falls here.? The attached file might help to some degree - I ran through the basic verse twice slowly with no singing.

On the first part of the verse, you can think of the thumb and index as having a dialogue between the bass notes and treble notes played with the slide.

Sorry about the out of tune guitar - I tuned to match his recording, but the strings I have on that guitar currently stay in tune better at a higher pitch.

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 08, 2005, 11:34:54 AM

On the question of those barbecue strings again, I came across this in the old Agram vinyl box set.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: waxwing on January 08, 2005, 11:50:19 AM

Looks kinda like unisons everywhere but the bass course which would seem to be an octave. Yet another permutation to try. Making the long assumption that he is in at least a playing position, it's interesting to note that he's up around the sound hole for that wide open sound he employs.
I also note the guitar has a 6 pin bridge similar to my Sovereign ("Barbecue Bob" Grand Concert size). Thanks Scratch, I never looked at that pic so close.
All for now.
John C.

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Richard on January 08, 2005, 01:49:28 PM

There has always seemed to be a touch of mystery around 12 string guitars and showing my ignorance what is the rational behind the tuning?

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Cambio on January 08, 2005, 04:49:16 PM

I think that there was never a standard for 12 string because they were somewhat rare. I doubt that one could have walked into a music store in the 20's and bought a set of strings for a 12 string guitar, so the guys who played them just had to wing it (sort of like they do now). Most of the old twelves did have long scales, between 26 1/2" and 27", so it can be safe to assume that they were meant to be tuned down to B or C. There were ones with short scales, but Bob's wasn't one of them. I think it's safe to assume that Leadbelly, living in Texas, had contact with Mexican bajo sexto players, and that they influenced his playing and thinking of the instrument. The wierd thing is that there wasn't more of a standard in Atlanta, where there the largest concentration of old twelve string players were located and had contact with one another around the Weaver household. McTell certainly tuned down, but BBQ Bob is an enigma. Maybe he just put on two standard six string sets and tuned it way up to suit his singing voice because he didn't want to bother with a capo.
To me, the fact that there was no standard is what makes it such an intriguing instrument.

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Richard on January 09, 2005, 09:03:27 AM

Thanks, that explains part of it. But as to the actual mechanics of tuning how are the strings actually set up, say for a C tuning in relation to say the pairs, octaves or whatever?

Or is that a whole topic in itself :o

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Cambio on January 09, 2005, 11:40:21 AM

I think that the octaves, in relation to the courses, is a reflection of the fact that there was no standard. Everyone did something a little different. Leadbelly had unisons for his first three courses, octaves for the fourth and fifth, and a double octave for the sixth course. McTell used unisons for the first two courses and octaves for the rest (I think). Frank recently put it together that McTell was using an octave on the second course for the 40's recordings. BBQ Bob seems to have been using unisons for the first four courses, and possibly octaves for the fifth and sixth.
This is the sort of talk that will make you nutty.
The string sets that I've been using on my guitars are a happy medium for me, in either B or C. The gauges were originally put together by Alvin Youngblood Hart. I know that Frank has posted them here before, but here goes:

.013/.013
.017/.017
.026/.026
.038/.017
.048/.022
.066/.026

If you want to sound more like Leadbelly, you can put a .013 on the sixth course to get the double octave.

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Richard on January 10, 2005, 10:55:49 AM

Thanks for the effort, it now begins to make sense although I think I'll stick to the six strings ;)

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: frankie on January 10, 2005, 11:03:46 AM

Looking at the picture that Prof Scratchy posted, it looks to me that BBQ Bob has the third course strung with unwound strings...

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Prof Scratchy on January 10, 2005, 01:04:16 PM

Quote from: frankie on January 10, 2005, 11:03:46 AM

Looking at the picture that Prof Scratchy posted, it looks to me that BBQ Bob has the third course strung with unwound strings...

That's right, probably unwound 16's like the ones in the stringset you advised?? That's what I've been using, only diverging on double-stringing the fifth and sixth courses (despite the pictorial evidence I don't hear an octave sixth on the (few, admittedly) recordings I have. Also, I had to get a slightly heavier sixth course - just because that's all they had in the shop. But I think the unwound first-to-third courses are what gives that essential BBQ Bob sound. Tinny and rattly almost. But good!

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: frankie on January 10, 2005, 01:11:55 PM

Something kinda on the light side, anyway... I think it's likely that he strung his guitar differently over time, depending on his mood, the sound he was trying to get, what was available, whatever. Pat definitely hit on something with the light strings/unwound third course, though. Wow!

I don't necessarily hear an octave string on the low course on the BBQ Bob recordings I've heard, either, especially when he snaps the bass string - definitely sounds like a single string to me.

Maybe he borrowed his brother's guitar for the pic!

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Johnm on January 10, 2005, 03:03:57 PM

I was wondering, Todd, when you construct a twelve-string now, how do you deal with the nut and deciding what width to make the nut slots? It seems like with all the different string set-ups that are surfacing with Barbecue Bob, Leadbelly and others it might be problematic.
All best,
Johnm

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: waxwing on January 10, 2005, 04:10:17 PM

Yeah, I'm with you, John M., thinkin' about ordering a couple alternate nuts for the Sovereign. And dang, the saddle that Gary B. made for it (actually it was Tim) snakes back and forth at each pair to get the best intonation possible for the "standard" set up (if I can call it that). I think I'll forego thinking about that at all. <G>
A couple points of interest catching up on this thread after a couple days away:
Another Georgia area (or maybe S.C.) 12 string player who tuned to about E was George Carter, whose Risin' River Blues John M. taught us a few summers back. (Slack's got it posted on the Back Porch). Anyone tried to sing the lyrics to Ghost Woman Blues, as George does, over pretty much the same arrangement? I been thinkin' about it. A little more on the humorous side.
Some more string gauges to ponder. Harry Lewman measured the strings still on Leadbelly's last Stella and they are:
.014/.014
.019/.019
.022/.022 (wound)
.038/.019
.048/.019
.070/.014
These do seem to reflect availability issues, eh? But how about that cable on the bass?!? Not even Alvin goes that big. You could take it off to tow your car!
Harry offers sets he has made up by La Bella (which are not listed on thier web page. I don't have a package on hand (time to order a few) but trying to read the picture on Harry's site (http://www.hlmusic.com/12%20string%20guitar%20string%20sets.htm), I think they are:
.014/.014
.019/.019
.025/.025
.036/.016
.046/.019
.064/.014
I swap the double octave .014 with one of the .025s to get a "standard" set up, for working on the BWMcT stuff I'm currently into, and they work great on the 26 1/2" Sovereign tuned to Standard at B. I've had them up to C# with no serious rise in the action. They do get a little stiffer, tho'. If I were to tune to Vestapol or Spanish I'd have no qualms about going "up" to A or D respectively (i.e. E and A). Mr McTell has been makin' me think about puttin' on a slide, and it wouldn't be much of a leap from there to some of this Barbecue Bob stuff. Takes me time, tho', I'm still a pup, especially with the slide or alternate tunings (not counting Drop "D"), ya know.
This thread is great. I'll give Harry L. a heads up when I order those strings and get some input from him, I hope.
All for now.
John C.

Title: Re: Barbeque Bob
Post by: Cambio on January 10, 2005, 07:47:15 PM

Quote from: Johnm on January 10, 2005, 03:03:57 PM

I was wondering, Todd, when you construct a twelve-string now, how do you deal with the nut and deciding what width to make the nut slots? It seems like with all the different string set-ups that are surfacing with Barbecue Bob, Leadbelly and others it might be problematic.

Well, I'm usually making guitars for people who are new to the 12 string, so when I do the setup and make a nut, I do so to the string specs I listed above. Like I've said, I find that set a happy medium for playing McTell or Leadbelly stuff. I don't think that most people are going to attempt to figure out BBQ Bob stuff, unless they are especially sick and twisted ;). When people are familiar with the instrument and have a string set that they like to use, I do the set up accordingly.
One important thing when setting up a 12 string for fingerpicking, you want the strings in each course as close together as possible to maximize the seperation between courses, but far enough apart to avoid buzzing. It's a delicate balance.

Title: Re: Barbecue Bob Workshop
Post by: LeftyStrat on March 19, 2009, 02:22:32 PM

Rather than start a whole new thread, I'm gonna put this here. If it should be moved, feel free to do so.

There are a couple of "signature" Barbecue Bob licks, if you wanna call em that, that I've been curious about and thought I'd ask here to see what info the more illuminated can give.

In a lot of his songs, there is a four or five-chord intro he plays and I was wondering if anyone knew these chords. Granted they aren't the same each time, but they seem to have the same progression, so maybe that's what I'm meaning to ask.

Also, I've noticed a little 5-note riff he plays at the end of quite a few of his verses. I'd figured it out at one point, but darned if i can remember, or even pick it out by ear. Can anyone help?

Thanks in advance,
Lefty

Title: Re: Barbecue Bob Workshop
Post by: Rivers on March 19, 2009, 07:31:04 PM

Any particular song we can focus on Lefty? He had a few in Spanish and others in Vestapol. Plus a couple of stock intros.

Title: Re: Barbecue Bob Workshop
Post by: uncle bud on March 20, 2009, 07:34:45 AM

Hi Lefty,

I believe Barbecue Bob's familiar chordal intro is as follows (in Spanish tuning, DGDGBD):

I = x00005
VI = xx2002 (whether one actually should call this a VI chord, I dunno.)
I = x00000
V7= xx0210
I = x00000 then up to x00005 (or x0xxx5 or whatever. Sometimes he hits more notes, sometimes it's just sliding up to the 5th fret etc)

As for the other signature riff, you'll need to give us more of a clue, as Rivers says. Name a song. Is it a bass string lick?

Title: Re: Barbecue Bob Workshop
Post by: uncle bud on March 20, 2009, 09:14:52 AM

I have merged three topics dealing with Barbecue Bob's playing and setup into one Barbecue Bob Workshop topic. Some good information in here. There is a tangent about 12-string setups but I left those in for simplicity and continuity's sake.

Title: Re: Barbecue Bob Workshop
Post by: LeftyStrat on March 20, 2009, 02:52:17 PM

Hey guys, Thanks for the help. I'm racking my brain to think of song examples without having to pull out the CDs.

For that verse riff, it *is* a bass string riff, and the only song that comes to mind off-hand without listening to a few tracks first is "Yo-Yo Blues". It's pretty prevalent in a few others as well, but I'm blanking on the titles, sadly. Long day at work today and I'm fried. :)

The Chord progression sounds good to me UB, although if you want to get a bit more specific, I *believe* he plays it at the beginning of "It Won't Be Long Now, Part I", although I suppose it could've been Charlie playing there.

Think I might need to get a guitar just for different tunings, or maybe one for each ;D Any recommendations for someone with "champagne tastes and a beer wallet", as my dad would say?

Title: Re: Barbecue Bob Workshop
Post by: Prof Scratchy on March 21, 2009, 03:03:55 AM

Hi lefty strat - Frankie does a break down of Yo-yo blues on page two of this thread. Maybe that would help you access that bass riff? Also I did a (tentative!) version on the Back Porch some time ago:http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?amp;Itemid=128&topic=869.0

Title: Re: Barbecue Bob Workshop
Post by: uncle bud on March 21, 2009, 10:22:09 AM

Quote from: frankie on November 27, 2004, 12:54:59 PM

Hi Joe - I had to do a lot of driving over the weekend, so I listened a bunch to Yo Yo Blues and just figured a little bit of it out quickly. To get the chugga-chugga sound on the IV chord and I chord, I ended up alternating between my thumb and index, aiming more for the middle or bass strings rather than the treble strings (this is basically what uncle bud suggested earlier). In a four beat measure, the pattern would be like:
Beat:  1  &  2  &  3  &  4  &  
          T  I   T  I   T   I   T  I
On beats 1 and 3, a bass note is picked. Beats 2 and 4 are heavily brushed - I think the rhythmic emphasis really falls here. The attached file might help to some degree - I ran through the basic verse twice slowly with no singing.

In going back to the posts the Perfesser refers to, I notice that the formatting looks like it's been bumped out of alignment in the above post where frankie outlined the thumb and index strokes. I believe the above is meant to show thumbstrokes on the downbeats and index strokes on the upbeats, resulting in this pattern: thumb bass --> index --> thumb brush --> index. Really fast. :D

Lefty, re. the chord sequence he uses to start some songs. Mississippi Heavy Water Blues, Goin' Up the Country, Chocolate to the Bone are just some of them.

Re. the bass riff. I'm then guessing it's the bass riff at the end of the form in Yo-Yo Blues. I'm doing this as sixteenth notes rather than eighth notes, so it ends 4 &-a-1 in my lame tab below.

3 & 4 a & a 1 -------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- ------------------0------------------------------------ ------------------0------------------------------------- ----------------------0--------------------------------- ----2---0----2------------------------------------------

Those first two bass notes are snapped.