Topic: Blind Blake's Guitar Style--Queries and Tips

[a2tom]

Since I may not be using the best term, I'll explain - by stumble bass I mean a bass pickup note on, say, the "and" of beat 4, followed immediately by a bass note on beat 1.?In general I'd say the pickup bass note is one string lower that the note on beat 1.

It has always seemd to me that there are two way one might execute this, thinking about the picking thumb.? First, there are two independent picks with the thumb, you just have to get them both in.? In other words, two "windups" with the thumb, two complete up and down motions.? Second, one could drive through the lower string for the pickup on the "and", and bringing the thumb almost to rest on the upper string until it is time to pick on beat 1.? In other words, it is all one windup, one up and down motion with the thumb, just with the appropriate hesitation on the downstroke to get the timing of the two notes right.

I was listening to some Big Bill Broonzy today and remembered that I never really have mastered this technique - tips would be appreciated.

tom

[uncle bud]

Hi Tom,

While there may be examples of the first style you cite - double wind-up - I can't think of any right now. (I'm sure someone will correct me.) Lemon certainly uses a lot of thumb and some of it might fall into that category, though it's probably just really part of a longer bass run if so. By far the more common technique is the 2nd one, one stroke, two notes a la Blind Blake. A double windup in this case would just sound wrong. There's a variation that might fall somewhere in the middle - a stroke that goes from the 6th string to the 4th string and jumps over the 5th. It's less of a single stroke to me - kind of a single stroke with an arc.

[Blue Poodle]

I have the impresssion that Bill Bill or Blind Blake always used one thumbstroke with a pause (sort of like a classical "rest stroke") when stroking down from one bass string to the next (as, when the first bass note is on the E string and the second is on the A string).?The rest stroke approach isn't possible when the bass notes are in the opposite direction (e.g., A string first note to E string second note).

As far as practicing goes, I do some exercises on pieces of Blind Blake tunes (maybe two or three measure sections) that have different kinds of thumbed bass notes (different directions, different chords).?"Georgia Bound" and "Diddie Wah Diddie"?have some typical sections that are worth working on, over and over.

I haven't got it down yet myself, but it's slowly coming around a bit better.

[Norfolk Slim]

Agree entirely that the 'rest' type stroke is the way to go.

I find it easy if its just a bass run, but tricky if (as is often the case) you are going from the sixth string on its own, to striking the fifth at the same time as picking treble strings- the second bit is a sort of pinch stroke I suppose.

I think the problem is my right hand position.  I tend (though not always by any means) to anchor my ring finger or little finger, but play with a hand position that is some way between a classical position and the more typical blues picker's position. 

I find that its much easier to do the stumble bass runs and so on if I make an effort to play with my thumb very much to the left of my picking fingers.  I struggle to play the rest of the piece like that though- because my natural hand position is much more upright- with thumb and fingers in about the same place, or even with the thumb slightly to the right of picking fingers. 

This has been tricky to describe- I hope it makes sense!

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I have always thought of the movement of the thumb in the thumb roll, or stumble bass as a dragging motion, pulling the thumb through the two strings in one continuous motion, rather that winding up twice and hitting the strings with two discrete motions.  The other ingredient to the thumb roll, at least as performed by Blake, is to lift the left hand slightly (it need not even come off the string) on the second of the two bass notes, so that it has a crisp attack and ending rather than a ringing decay.
I agree with Uncle Bud, it's a lot tougher when the roll is between non-adjacent strings, as in Blake's "Chump Man", where he rolls from the sixth string up to the fourth.  It's kind of sporting to get it clean.
All best,
Johnm

[waxwing]

Since I use a thumb pick, I find I have to rotate my right hand down  a little to angle the pick so that it will naturally fall onto the second string of the roll. Actually, for some reason I learned Chump Man long before I tried an adjacent string roll and, for me, it still seems to come a little easier, partially because to skip the 5th string I don't have to rotate the wrist down at all.
Great tip on the left hand damp, John  M, thanks.
All for now.
John C.
(coming to you from the parking lot outside the closed (for Good Friday) library in my NJ home town - limited net access for another week or so - fortunately they leave their wireless system on)

[chipmonk doug]

I think I do what ya'll are calling a stumble bass.
But I just stumble into it, then say well I like that.

As I've never been a good copyist, and just play them the way they feel to me. I'm not sure.

[col]

Hi All (this is my first post

I'm fairly new to playing country blues (couple of years), and I've been working on some Blind Blake stuff recently. While reading through a tab for West Coast Blues that I found online by 'John M' aka (DADFAD John), I read a description of a technique that I've not heard of before he calls it 'back-picking'...

"Blake also used the extremely rare technique of back-picking with his
thumb. This gives certain tones, such as nail-harmonics, that can only be
achieved by using this technique. It's especially evident in the C to E bass
segments. While not as easy to hear on Blake's old 78's, it's quite evident in
the newer cover recordings by John Jackson, who is the only other guitarist
I've ever met, or heard, who has truly mastered this technique."

What hes describing here doesn't sound like the usual Blake double-thumbing technique that I've got down pretty well. When I slow down the track using 'Transcribe', I can't hear anything that would suggest anything other than double thumbing.

What is 'back picking'? Can anyone enlighten me?

cheers

Col

[a2tom]

I always thought the term back-picking was applied to alterating bass picking where the higher pitched string was played on beats 1 and 3 instead of the other way around (e.g. picking the bass on string 4 5 4 5 instead of 5 4 5 4).  That's obviously not how John M is using the term.  He'll certainly tell us, but I am guessing he means striking the string with the thumb going in the opposite direction as normal, i.e. upward, i.e. with the thumb nail first.

tom

[Slack]

HI Col, firstly, welcome to Weenie Campbell.

Back picking is indeed a different technique from double thumbing --- double thumbing is easy to hear in Blind Blake but I would also be hard pressed to pick out the back picking.  Think of back picking as using your thumb like a flat pick e.g., you pick up using the back of the nail as well as down.

I was lucky enough to observe John Jackson doing this --- pretty amazing technique and if you want to see him demonstrate I think John J demonstrates it on his instruction video (the one with Roy Bookbinder).

Hope that helps -- I would consider it an advanced technique.

Cheers,
slack

[uncle bud]

Like Slack, nothing springs to mind in Blake where I can hear back picking. Doesn't mean it's not there and if anyone was to toss this into an already substantial bag of tricks, Blake would be a good candidate. I'd be curious to hear an example.

Also like Slack, I did see John Jackson doing this. It really was just like using a flatpick, up-down up-down, and you can hear it in John's bass runs.

Welcome to WeenieCampbell, Col!

[waxwing]

I actually saw John Miller doing this and asked him about it at PT this summer. He said he uses it a lot when he is soloing in a jam. I think it was the evening at dinner when we were all playing the 12 string behind 15.

I'm not sure our Johnm is the same John M (aka DADFAD John) who posts on tab sites. -G-

All for now.
John C.

[Johnm]

Hi all,
Your instinct is correct, John C., the DADFAD John M is a different person than me.  John D. and Uncle Bud and John C. have the technique pegged correctly, Col.  It involves going both directions with the thumb to play runs.  I believe Blake did use this technique, but not a lot, certainly not as much as John Jackson did.  There's a place in "Blind Arthur's Breakdown", I believe, where Blake plays a fast run on the A string that goes from open to third to fourth fret several times followed by the same left hand but on the fourth string, where he employs this technique.  Try it out, it's not that hard.  Lemon used the technique, too, but he was wearing a thumpick so it's not exactly the same.
All best,
Johnm

[Bob B]

Is back-picking the technique used in Blake's Policy Blues, or John Miller's arrangement of the same tune?  There certainly are some high octane single string runs in each.

Thanks

Bob

[col]

Thanks everyone for the info...

Hi all,
Your instinct is correct, John C., the DADFAD John M is a different person than me.  John D. and Uncle Bud and John C. have the technique pegged correctly, Col.  It involves going both directions with the thumb to play runs.  I believe Blake did use this technique, but not a lot, certainly not as much as John Jackson did.  There's a place in "Blind Arthur's Breakdown", I believe, where Blake plays a fast run on the A string that goes from open to third to fourth fret several times followed by the same left hand but on the fourth string, where he employs this technique.  Try it out, it's not that hard.  Lemon used the technique, too, but he was wearing a thumpick so it's not exactly the same.
All best,
Johnm

Very interesting, I was actually expecting something more along the lines of an upstroke adding a shuffle to a standard alternating bass - rather than for runs. I have been experimenting with using a thumb upstroke to my bass, but its more of a mini strum with a somewhat percussive sound. A sort of replacement for the double thumb technique for the places where that wont work e.g. when you want to use one string, or have your on-the-beat note on the 6th string...
To use my thumb for alternate picking of single note runs would be something completely different.

Like Slack, nothing springs to mind in Blake where I can hear back picking. Doesn't mean it's not there and if anyone was to toss this into an already substantial bag of tricks, Blake would be a good candidate. I'd be curious to hear an example.

Also like Slack, I did see John Jackson doing this. It really was just like using a flatpick, up-down up-down, and you can hear it in John's bass runs.

Welcome to WeenieCampbell, Col!

I would also like to hear some examples.
(And thanks for the welcome - I've been lurking for a while  )

cheers

Col