Topic: Miller's Breakdown

[banjochris]

Pretty sure Stamp Blues is in A standard. In the break he plays C7-shaped D7 and E7 shapes. The dissonance throughout the tune sounds to me as if he's playing the open 4th string D as a bass even over the I chord.

[Pan]

The dissonance throughout the tune sounds to me as if he's playing the open 4th string D as a bass even over the I chord.

I should have thought of that!

Cheers

Pan

[Johnm]

Hi all,
It looks as though all who intend to respond to the Tony Hollins and Debs Mays puzzlers have done so by now, so I will post the answers.  Thanks to all who participated; it makes the discussion so much more lively when there are lots of people responding, and it's neat to see the reasoning that people employed in making their choices for their answers. 

For Tony Hollins' "Stamp Blues":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning with no capo, as Prof Scratchy, blueshome, and banjochris had it--well done!  I thought this was an exceptionally difficult identification to make, and one where you had to listen to the entire track to be reasonably sure of the playing position, which is quite unusual.  It's much more often that you can determine playing position/tuning fairly early in a rendition.
Up to the second solo, at around 1:29, I would have made the same identification of playing position as Lastfirstface and Pan did, E position, capoed up to sound in A.  Even the IV note that Tony Hollins keeps hitting in the bass would be consistent with that identification, because in playing in E position, capoed to the fifth fret and sounding in A, The pitch of the open sixth string at the fifth fret capo position is A and the pitch of the open fifth string at the fifth fret capo position is D.  Thus, Tony Hollins could have been capoed to the fifth fret, playing out of E position, and still hit that IV note on the open fifth string.  As it turns out the IV note that Tony Hollins was playing was located on the open fourth string, playing in A position, without a capo.
The solo at 1:29 blew the capoed E position identification out of the water for me, because all of a sudden, Tony Hollins is soloing in a much lower range, and when he goes to the IV7 and V7 chords in that solo he plays them out of a C7 shape at the fifth and seventh frets respectively, as Chris pointed out.  Moreover, he plays the so-called "long A" chord in the seventh and eighth bars of that solo, X-0-2-2-2-5.  That solo nails the identification down as A position in standard tuning.
Re the question of a possible identification of Spanish tuning, Spanish tuning would not make the IV note available in the bass in any way that wouldn't involve some absolutely knuckle-busting stretches.  Also the C7 shapes Tony Hollins played in the 1:29 solo are implausible in Spanish--the IV7 chord would have to fingered X-5-2-3-1-X to sound that way.

For Debs Mays' "Rabbit Blues":
   * Playing position/tuning was E position in standard tuning as everyone who responded had it--well done!
   * The first two chord positions Debs Mays played in his opening solo were E7, played at 0-X-X-13-12-10, as Pan had it, and voiced R-3-5-b7, and A9, played at X-0-X-12-12-9, and voiced R-b7-9-3.  I had a dickens of a time hearing and finding that A9 voicing; it is not one I have ever encountered before on a Country Blues recording.  It's so cool the way the move keeps the interior 12th fret of the second string in both chords while the outer voices on the third and first strings shift downwards by a half-step when you go from the E7 to the A9.  Hats off to Debs Mays for big ears and a big imagination!
   * For the passage from :09--:14, Debs Mays slides to the sixth fret of the third string as several of you had it.  In order to play the passage, you have to fret that sixth fret of the third string with your third, or ring finger.  He then fingers the fifth fret of the second string with his second finger, the third fret of the first string with his index finger, and comes on and off the first string at the seventh fret with his little finger, so he's bouncing back and forth between these two shapes on the first three strings:  6-5-3, voiced 3-5-b7, for an A7, and 6-5-7, voiced 3-5-9 for an A9.  Once again, I have never encountered this move before.  It's a little stretchy, but man does it sound great.  It reminds me of the sound of some of the partially open voicings that Jesse Thomas was fond of using.  Once again, hats off to Debs Mays for imagination and originality!

Thanks again to all who participated in the puzzlers.  These were by no means easy, and people were really in the ball park.  I'll look for some more to post soon.

All best,
Johnm   

[Pan]

Thanks for the detailed analysis, and for a great choice of examples again, John.

Debs Mays sure was a sophisticated player! That A9 voicing is so pretty!

Cheers

Pan

[Johnm]

Thanks, Pan.  They really are cool songs, and I couldn't agree with you more about Deb Mays and that A9 voicing, it has a special sort of ring to it.  Thanks again to Lastfirstface for finding the Debs Mays tracks and posting them at the site.
All best,
Johnm

[Lastfirstface]

Thanks for all your work on this thread, John. I always learn a lot through the required close listening and its a good way to get out of a rut of playing the same ol' stuff. I was hoping you'd pick one of the Debs Mays songs, they've been in regular rotation for me since I stumbled on them.

-Pete

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers that I hope folks will find interesting.  The first is "Poor Boy Blues" by Willie Lofton.  Here it is:



The lyrics to "Poor Boy Blues" can be found at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=7447.msg59337#msg59337 .

The questions on "Poor Boy Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Willie Lofton use to play the song?
   * Where did Willie Lofton play his ascending, then descending signature lick, from :07--:09?
   * Where did Willie Lofton fret his solo, from 1:08--1:16?

The second puzzler is from Debs Mays, who was featured in the last round of puzzlers, and it is his "Soap Box Blues".  Here it is:



INTRO

It's real hot weather, it's time to turn on the fan
It's real hot weather, it's time to turn on the fan (Spoken: Yeah, it's gettin' hot here.)
I got the soap box blues, and I can't wash my hands

Now, when wintertime comes, and the snow starts coming down
When wintertime comes and snow starts coming down
Gonna hunt me a fire, quit all my running around

SOLO

Somebody's been in my soap box, done took all my soap away (Spoken: Yeah, they been a-stealin' my soap.)
Somebody been in my soap box, done took all my soap away
Whoever's been takin' my soap, I wish they'd let it lay

The questions on "Soap Box Blues" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Debs Mays use to play the song?
   * Where did Debs Mays fret the descending walk into his V7 chord at :32--:33?
   * Where did Debs Mays fret his IV chord from 1:20--1:25?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Saturday, March 5.  Thanks for participating and I hope you enjoy the songs.

All best,
Johnm

[One-Eyed Ross]

Gads.  I hate being first, but here goes.

Poor Boy - G, standard tuning, not sure on the lick and solo, so I'll leave that one alone.

Soap Box Blues - A, standard.  The V7 chord sounds to me like a C7 shape played at 5th fret.  The IV chord I'll toss in an A shape chord at 7th  fret.  (technically, I think that should be 5th fret, but I'm easily confused).

Looking forward to learning how it really is played.....(I've been having such bad luck lately!)

[David Kaatz]

Lofton is playing standard tuning, G position.
The signature lick is played starting on the 3rd fret, 3rd string, moving to open 2nd string, 1st fret second string, 3rd fret second string, then descending (sort of) 3rd fret 3rd string, open 2nd, and open 3rd.
The solo is played at the 10th fret, a partial A position, with the 10th fret 1st string, 12 fret 2nd and 3rd strings, and open 4th string being played during those seconds.

Deb Mays is playing in A, standard tuning.
The descending walk is played from the 9th fret descending to the 7th fret, using the C7 shape with the ring finger holding the 6th string and muting the 5th. He is playing the 6th, 4th, and 3rd strings.
The IV chord in the solo is played at the 10th fret - a 9th chord variation. 12th fret 1st string, 10th fret 2nd string, and 11th fret 3rd string.

That intro is oh-so-cool! I can't suss out what he is doing, but sounds like it has harmonics on the 2nd and 3rd strings at the 12th fret.
Dave

[Prof Scratchy]

Pretty much what davek said!

[Old Man Ned]

Agree, G for Willie Lofton and A for Deb Mays and I think DaveK has covered the finer points.

I have to say, I've been really taken with the last 2 puzzlers featuring Deb Mays.  This is one classy guitar player. Is there much known about him and any more recordings available?

[banjochris]

One thing I would suggest for "Soap Box" is that the E7 walk down may be played by taking a regular open E7 chord (with the pinky 7th) up 2 frets to F#7 and then walking it down, avoiding the sixth and first strings when you play. Same move that Sylvester Weaver makes in Weaver's Blues and Curley Weaver makes in Ticket Agent.
Chris

[One-Eyed Ross]

...The IV chord in the solo is played at the 10th fret - a 9th chord variation. 12th fret 1st string, 10th fret 2nd string, and 11th fret 3rd string....
Dave

What a catch!  Listened again and there it is.  (I don't use 9ths as much as I should so my ear doesn't catch them).

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I think all of the responses are in to the Willie Lofton and Debs Mays puzzlers, so I'll post the answers now.

For Willie Lofton's "Poor Boy Blues":
   * His playing position was G position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--very well done!  Since the song is essentially a one-chorder, I thought Spanish seemed plausible, but no one went that route, and you all were correct in your choices.
   * For his ascending/descending lick from :07--:09, Willie Lofton did the following:  The ascending line starts on the second beat of the measure, and on 2+ he goes from the open second string to the second string, first fret.  On 3+, he goes from the second fret of the second string to the third fret of the second string.  On 4+, he moves from a grace note pull-off from the second fret of the second string to the open second string on beat four and hits the open third string on the + of beat four.  The open third string is tied into beat 1 of the next measure, and on the + of beat one he hits the third fret of the first string.  On 2+, he goes from the first fret of the first string to the third fret of the second string.  On beat 3, he bends the third fret of the third string, and on 4+ he goes from the bent third fret of the third string to the open third string.
   * Willie Lofton fretted the front end of his solo, from 1:08--1:16, as follows:  He slides into the twelfth fret of the second string, brushing it along with the tenth fret of the first string.  He then lowers the second string to a bent eleventh fret, while he goes back and forth between the tenth and twelfth frets of the first string, brushing the first and second strings with his index finger.  He moves that 11-10 configuration on the second and first strings down three frets, fretting the bent eighth fret of the second string (rasty--a bent I note!) along with the seventh fret of the first string.  He rocks that position back up three frets and back down, then in the lower position brushes the first two strings while going back and forth between the seventh and eighth frets of the first string.  His sound in this portion of the solo reminds me a little bit of Tommy McClennan, though Willie Lofton's time is more frantic than was Tommy McClennan's.

For Debs Mays' "Soap Box Blues":
   * His playing position was A position in standard tuning, as everyone who responded had it--well done!  Everyone responder had the positions for both tunes identified correctly, and that's great to see.
   * Debs Mays' descending walk into his V7 chord, from :32--:33 could be played both as Dave and as Chris described it.  I think Chris's solution is more plausible, based on the fact that the run is immediately followed by an open sixth string in the bass, and it sounds like Debs Mays is at the base of the neck, hitting open sixth and first strings.  Both solutions exactly capture what notes were hit in the walk-down, though.
   * For the passage from 1:20--1:25, Debs Mays is sliding into a rootless D9, up the neck, with the tenth fret of the fourth and second strings, the eleventh fret of the third string and the twelfth fret of the first string.  This is essentially what Dave had, with just the fourth string added.  Debs Mays reminds me of Johnny St. Cyr in his fondness for rootless ninth chords.  Way to find that lick, Dave!  Re Old Man Ned's query on Debs Mays bio, Stuart posted a link in a thread in the Super Electric Recordings board, at:  http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=11003.msg96841#msg96841 , that supplies some biographical information on Mays.  Evidently he was named for the Socialist and occasional presidential candidate, Eugene Debs, who once ran for President while in prison!
I'm not sure what effect any of that had on Debs Mays music.

Everyone who responded had the position identifications right this time.  Congratulations to all.  I'll try to find some more puzzlers to post soon, and thanks for participating.

All best,
Johnm

   

[Johnm]

Hi all,
I've got a couple of new puzzlers that are a bit different this time, by virtue of the guitar being part of an ensemble, rather than a solo instrument.  The first song is by the duo, Blind Pete and partner, and the tune is "Black Bayou Ain't Got No Bottom".  I don't know if Blind Pete was the fiddler or the guitarist, but in any event, here is the tune:



The question on "Black Bayou Ain't Got No Bottom" is:
   * What playing position/tuning is the guitarist using to back the fiddler on "Black Bayou Ain't Got No Bottom"?

The second song is by Lightnin' Hopkins, "Found My Baby Crying", for which he is joined by a pianist and drummer.  Here is "Found My Baby Crying":



INTRO

I come home this mornin', yes, I found my baby crying
I come home this mornin', yes, I found my baby crying
I said, "The Lord have mercy.  What is wrong with that little babe of mine?"

You know it hurt me so bad, see them tears roll down my baby's cheek
Yeah, you know it hurt me so bad, see them tears rollin' down my baby's cheek
Whoa, you know I didn't have no money, poor Lightnin' didn't have a bite to eat

SOLO

Don't, don't cry, baby, you know things is bound to change
Don't cry, don't cry, don't cry, baby, you know things is bound to change
Whoa, if I don't bring the bacon in the Winter, rest, for sure, poor Lightnin' bring it in the Spring

SOLO (Spoken:  One more time.  Oh yeah!)

The questions on "Found My Baby Crying" are:
   * What playing position/tuning did Lightnin' Hopkins use to play the song?
   * Where did Lightnin' fret the very beginning of his introductory solo, from :00--:03?
   * Where did Lightnin' fret the descending run in his later solo, from 2:20--2:23?

Please use only your ears and instruments to arrive at your answers, and please don't post any answers before 8:00 AM your time on Tuesday, March 15.  Thanks for your participation and I hope you enjoy the tunes.

All best,
Johnm